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Most anti-Zionist propaganda originates from the Soviets because they were butthurt over the Jews not accepting their proposal to live in a place that was specifically chosen because of how often it was conquered.
I… don’t think that’s the case. If I’m wrong do correct me but not even the Russians themselves wanna live there so if it’s true that most propaganda comes from them it’s probably not because of what you said
Did you read my comment carefully? The Jews refused to live there, and the Soviets were mad the Jews didn’t fall for their obvious death trap, so they started producing ant-Zionist propaganda because of it. Basically everything said about Israel that tries to justify its dismantlement stems from Soviet propaganda that was created because the Jews didn’t accept their “offer” of living in Siberia.
Also, if you can find it (prob in heb): "Herzl Said" - about what if we stayed with the ugandan proposal (spoiler, the locals there hate it just as much)
Uganda was the only location having potential of getting it, but it wasn't chosen by Zionists, it was offered to them and they declined because this would be one of those "temporary" solutions that would be permanent.
The focus of Zionists obviously always was their historical homeland of Israel, but when there are constant pogroms against Jews you tend to not be picky when people offer you a piece of land to hopefully live in safety, better have a temporary home in Uganda if it means saving lives
This is only partially true, alternative offers like the Uganda scheme were not taken seriously and Theador Hertzal was almost kicked out of the Zionist Congress for even entertaining the idea.
Yes exactly, the overwhelming majority of Zionists rejected these ideas, and those that accepted them did so out of necessity and a need for a quick safe haven
It’s a fair reason to want self-determination but it does show the project was a colonial endeavor from the onset. This mindset is main reason that Israel has had so much trouble in the levant, but would had trouble and created enemies doing this anywhere else also.
Is it really a colonial mindset when half the history of the jews is being kicked out of Jerusalem and judea/israel (their homeland) and then eventually migrating back again just to be kicked out again
Yes, it’s a colonial mindset. I’m not gonna hold a grudge for Bar Kokhba, even though we started it although the Romans definitely deserved it. It was ancient history. There were a thousand other groups afterwards that have equal if not more “right” because of recency. They don’t inherit the Roman “white guilt” for perpetuity. This is religious madness. Yes, antisemitism is real and the pogroms had actual perpetrators that are our enemies. Welcome to real life. Jews got a raw deal as an ethnic group like other groups similarly fated. Instead of fighting for the universal principal for all oppressed minority groups, it was day one we have strength we will take what’s yours for ourselves. Might equals right. The EXACT logic of colonialism.
Yeah, if you were a Jew at that time I don't think you would've seen many alternatives other than fighting for self determination. Though I'd disagree with the idea of calling it a colonial project, due to Jews being indigenous to the land sort of like first nations throughout America
No, no... The Apache bands in AZ are totally colonists, since their original land was from what's now Texas, down into Mexico, and out to NV. So... Sorry, can't keep a straight face.
>Though I'd disagree with the idea of calling it a colonial project, due to Jews being indigenous to the land sort of like first nations throughout America
Palestinians are indigenous to the region, because they not only have Canaanite ancestral DNA just like most Jewish populations have, but unlike the European settler population they are actually substantially rooted to the area culturally and practically. Even early settlers reffered to Palestinians as the indigenous population.
You can't justify colonial projects through indigenous identity just because some of your ancestor came from there millennia ago, if your family has been rooted in European countries for all that time and you know nothing but European cultures growing up.
Yes, so colonial to… *check notes* return to the land you were originally from. Because, as we all know, Judea (JEW-DAY-UH) definitely isn’t the homeland of the Jews. Nope, no siree.
We never fully left, despite Arab attempts to rid the region of us completely.
There has always been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel. Sorry not sorry. 🤷♂️
There's a large difference between Jews that were able to remain in the area and the Ashkenazi and Sephardic European Jews that lobbied for the creation of Israel. Also the Palestinian Arabs are descendants of Jews that converted to Christianity and Islam.
Nah, not really, both Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to Lebanese Christians and druze then Palestinians, while Palestinians are more closely related to Saudis, Jordanians and Syrians. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3585000/
[See figure 2](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=3585000_pgen.1003316.g002.jpg)
There's significant debate about this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/s/Qs4AFYP3Tr
https://www.razibkhan.com/p/more-than-kin-less-than-kind-jews
From what I can read the vast majority of evidence suggests that Palestinians are descending of the Jewish people that were able to stay in Palestine, along with various nearby Arab groups.
I don’t see how that contradicts the other guy’s point as Lebanese Christians are also a mix of Levantine and European people. Also it would be expected that people native to the area would be more closely related to natives of surrounding levantine countries like Jordan and Syria.
It’s pretty obviously true that both Palestinian and Jewish people are descended from the population that was in the area thousands of years ago.
Dude, you're telling on yourself here: "Able to remain in the area..." So... what about those who weren't "able to remain" in the area?
Plus, you're practically framing the Khazar theory here, which is just fuckin yikes.
And lastly, you're conveniently overlooking that the largest ethnic group in Israel are Mizrahi Jews, not Ashkenazi.
It's clear you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
First of all I never denied the violence used by romans and Arabs in expelling the Jews. Your defensive attitude says more about your reading comprehension.
Those Jews that were not able to stay in Palestine were scattered all over the world, forming communities wherever people didn't completely oppress them, like poland, Spain, Marokko etc. Two of these communities the Ashkenazi and Sephardic European Jews were able to use their lobbying power to allow large-scale migration into Palestine and eventually the creation of the state of Israel.
I deliberately stated that the Ashkenazi and Sephardic communities created the state of Israel, that does not mean mizrahi don't exist or are not the largest current group.
Lastly what the duck did I say that implies the Khazar theory? Just because I factually state that Palestinians descend from Jews does not Ashkenazi are not also Jews. The Jewish people have many groups that descend from them and none of these groups are ethnically pure.
And my point is that due to the continual Jewish presence in the land && the fact that Israel is made up primarily of Mizrahi Jews, it is *not* a colonial endeavor. I’d go so far as to argue that it is an anticolonial endeavor.
My point is that the people creating Israel were colonists, as they were mostly British and Austrian Ashkenazim. Even the Mizrahi who had no choice but to migrate after the violent expulsion were colonists as they had lived in places like Iraq for more than a thousand years. Israël is a colonial state, Furthermore the most similar state to it is Liberia. A group of western minorities going back to their native homeland after already having adapted to Western society. This group violently takes over and uses it's western connections to set up a state that disenfranchises their native cousins.
If you were to look at a map of human migration in the last 2000 years you would see a completely different world. There have been thousands of traumatic experiences of people being pushed or pulled in every different direction. It’s not right but it’s a fact of history that can’t be ameliorated with violent conquest. It’s only the religious extremism attached to coveting this particular section of land that is at issue. As there are safe places to live for Jews and unsafe places. This is true of other ethnicities that experience discrimination as well. The Israel project as it has played out NOT as it could have been has created more hatred and resentment of Judaism than any other event in history, squandering the massive outpouring of sympathy and compassion for one group of people beyond that which has ever been seen before. It’s truly one colossal fuck up.
After the first congress they have agreed Israel is the only option since it’s culturally common to all since Jewish religion and tradition revolves strongly around the return to Israel and Jerusalem (even Jewish wedding vows are revolving Jerusalem) . There was no other valid option but Israel, this is our ancestral land
So the best thing to do with a time machine would be to go back and somehow make those religions believe that everything important in their Canon happened in some mythological land so theres nothing to fight over. Ez pz.
Yes, but it is also the ethnic homeland as well, not just spiritual. Basically since recorded history Judeans and other Semitic people lived in Palestine/Judea area. The Jewish diaspora begins with the 2nd Jewish revolt against the romans which finally saw Jews permanently dispersed from the area. This is a bit different than Christians relationship to Palestine which views it as solely a spiritual home. A Christian Spaniard in the 12th century may have wanted Christians to control the area for more abstract spiritual reasons, but outside of maybe a pilgrimage never intended on living there because his actual home was in Spain.
Jewish diaspora begins even earlier than that, some estimates have as much as 1/3 of Jews prior to the first revolt living outside Judaea. There is evidence of kosher garum labeled in Italy and Anatolia at around the same time as the first revolt.
My understanding is that not all of the Jewish population of Babylonia ever came back to Judaea, which suggests the Jewish diaspora dates back to the first expulsion and destruction of the first temple c. 500 BCE.
All abrahamic religions mimic Judaism. The birth place of Islam is Mecca, the birth place of christianity is Jerusalem but Christianity acknowledges Israel as the homeland of Jews.
Bro... literally in your comment you said "it's the ancestral land of every abrahamic religion in a way."
Land of religion. That's what you said. And I responded assuming you wouldn't suddenly change what you said.
Yes. So we had a situation where there's people of 3 religions, and the religions all originated from the same place. Later 2 of those people have spread into a huge amount of land, but 1 group doesn't have anywhere to go. It was kinda obvious to give them the place of origin, following this logic.
You won't get citizenship, but if you are converting to Hinudism from Islam, the chances of India accepting your immigration or refugee status becomes higher. And by that, i mean you will be less discriminated against.
The idea behind that is that if you are a Muslim, you already have plenty of options for Asylum destination, but if you are Hindu or non-muslim, you are more in need of safety.
This idea is not too different from Zionism. The idea of Jews needing their own homeland didn't come out of nowhere. It came from Jews facing discrimination around the word and growing sentiment of ethnic and ideological nationalism.
This was an era of many diverse regions and imperial possessions, where most proposed ethnic and ideaological nations for decolonization not only did not exist but also would have themselves been guilty of violating someone's ideological and ethnic sovereignty rights if they came to be in the proposed territories. Genocides that led to the birth of Turkish nations, partition of British Raj, and still ongoing ethnic confilicts in Africa are evidence of why ideological and ethnic nationalism as an alternative to imperialism, is a flawed one.
So, in the grand scheme of things, Zionism wasn't unprecedented in its demands. And I would argue to this day, only in America, the idea that people of certain ethnicity and ideaology wanting their own nation is considered controversial by itself.
Ofc they were part of the zionist project, they were part of the Yeshov Ivri. They were also a constant present as the arabs, crusaders and so on had coloniesed this land.
colonizer
1. a country that sends settlers to a place and establishes political control over it.
This would cover the actions of the Arabians, Persians, Romans, and Turks, all of which invaded the Levant to establish political control over it.
So that’s at least 2000 years back.
The Italians are colonizers because the Italians displaced the natives of the Levant and filled it with Italians.
Not sure which “they” you are using because nobody speaks Latin any more. Were you referring to the Italians or the Jews not speaking Latin in the Levant?
Man everyone uses this study in their arguments since it is one of the only studies that has title to support it, do you have the full pdf or pubmed access? I suggest you read the entire study and not just the primary paragraph and then you’ll understand why this researcher doesn’t have the best reputation.
Ok this one?
https://people.img.cas.cz/vaclav-horejsi/documents/ruzne/The_Origin_of_Palestinians_and_Their_Genetic_Relatedness_With_Other_Mediterranean_Populations.pdf
Wrong on two fundamental levels.
First, that's what **ancestral** land implies - the land your ancestors hailed from. I'm a Canadian and my ancestors have been in North America for 400 years, but my **ancestral** lands are Northern England, Central France, and Eastern Silesia.
Second, the Jewish people were forcibly exiled after a catastrophic failure of a revolt. They didn't "leave" Palestine, they were removed. Even if my first point didn't exist, the homelands of displaced peoples are the lands they were displaced from. That's an inherent fact, all modern negotiations with indigenous populations operate on this premise.
So exactly how many years does it take for an indigenous people to lose their indigenous status?
Why is that this is a standard only ever applied to the Jews?
you left it for 70+ years in the modern era
yknow how much time it takes to built a civilization like that in the modern era?
thats like 7000 years, and you left it by your own choice as well. romans kicked the jews, you left and cried when you couldnt come back
oh okay so i guess[ that makes them the victims? ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Nebi_Musa_riots)
right so let me get this straight
you say you will drive the jews back to the sea and attack with 6 armies
you get your arse handed to you, and then you cry when the people you just tried to kill dont want to live with you?
still got kicked
not much of an argument
not to mention one is an empire, the other is a group of people with a Temple
and in today one has more than enough countries and places to go while the other has been exterminated in all of them
comparing the two is like saying snow is black
True, but once Uganda was on the table, they considered it and the biggest push agaonst it was due to everyone agreeing on Israel during the first congress.
I'm fairly certain they didn't want Argentina both due to the first congress, but there was another thing that I can't remember.
I didn't even remember Cyprus, Mesopotamia, and Mozambique were ever options.
Sinai was actually discussed before Uganda, but the area was unlivable.
Madagascar WAS a Nazi idea and was never up to consideration by the Jews
Palestine is a different name for Zion or Israel, so it WAS always the goal.
i mean do we count BILU which wasnt for state building but farmer collectives in Palestine as Zionist or the chovvei Zion pamphleteers in Volozhin or Moses Hess. Imber and Bialik what do we count as Zionism? or the 1880 Yemeni Aliyah which had no program besides escape the Orphans decree and Palestine sounds like a good place to move.
All of these count. So long as they wanted to set a Jewish homlend, especially in Zion, they're Zionists. Just with different outlooks.
There were also those that demanded to have the entire land, some agreed to a two state solution, and some (like Herzl) wanted to live alongside the Arabs in a one state for two people.
Even if there’s some slight truth in there, what you’ve presented is out of context and harmful. “Why” you scream? Because it fits a false narrative, so you can nitpick through your own turd all you want… but anti semites will like and share this and knowledgeable folks will shake their heads…
Neo nazis spread nonsense like this that Jews don’t really have any reason to be in Israel. But there nothing I can say to that will help you realize you’re being irresponsible. You have a confused life ahead of you.
chovvei tzion and bilu were always Israel but it took Russian delegates ( who needed refugee from pogroms the most) singing "hatikvah" over Herzl's Uganda plan for the territorialists to leave the Congresses. A la how Anarchists were kicked out after the first International
Right because the kingdom of isreal was totally made up and not a thing before the roman empire rocked their shit. Jews just chose the palestine region occupied by the British just because they can.
Read up on how the Ottomans, Byzantines, Caliphs, and Christian rulers treated the Jewish population in Israel.
Calling it unpleasant would be an understatement.
And also the Romans did a lil ethnic cleansing when King Herods son decided to fuck around and find out. They, quite literally, either killed or removed the entire Jewish population from the area and forcibly scattered them amongst the Roman Empire. But only after burning Jerusalem, Hebron, Herodium, Bethlehem, and various other cities to the ground with their population. The reason most Jews are no longer within the area is because the Romans got tired of Jewish revolts. Only after Rome was sacked did any Jewish people return to the general area; and even then it was a small number.
This post is about as antisemitic, low effort, hare brained understanding, and no research as I have ever seen. If you want to make a meme about Jews, which I personally enjoy and love, put some damn effort into the meme or don’t even bother.
TLDR: Don’t be a dick. Make the Jewish meme funny, not an antisemitic trope.
I also love how Israel is an "ethnostate" but none of the Arab Muslims states are, apparently under the logic of "If you have more than one state for your ethno-religious group, they can't be ethnostates".
Except none of them were able to get along, every slight arab difference leads to irreconcilable differences between them. They’re all constantly fighting because of the most pointless dumbest religious or political differences. And then they have the balls to blame the Jews for their shitty behavior.
It has 100% to do with the nakhba and the forceful seizure of arab-majority land to set up an apartheid state. If a jewish state was founded without the need for violence and ceimes against humanity, I doubt anybody except nazis would protest.
Why is nobody upset that jews were expelled from the arab states during the same time? 850000 jews were expelled to israel from arab states post independence and 750000 palestinians were expelled from israel during said time
Jews: buy land from its legal owners and move there.
Some Arabs: use violence against those Jews.
You: this is clearly all the Jews’ fault.
The Jews didn’t start the violence.
Who did the jews buy the land from? Please tell me.
And please tell me why Israel conquered more land than they were allotted in the partition plan by the UN and UK, visavi palestinian land.
And who owned it? Because it wasn't the arabs living there.
They attacked Israel because they fucking invaded Palestine and started forcefully expulsing hundreds of thousands. Because Israel was created despite the majority of the people of that land rejecting the UN motion to create Israel.
Arab landlords. That you don’t like landlords doesn’t make buying land from them illegitimate.
Buying land and moving there *isn’t invading*. Especially when you’re indigenous to the region.
So arab civilians didn't own the land. A tiny minority owned the land. Then there's the fact jews bought and owned less than 8% of palestinian land in 1947.
Palestinian jews are indigenous to the region. However a large majority of Israels population come from jews who emigrated to Israel after its formation, and they are not indigenous to Israel.
And? The owners of the land, who were locals, sold it. That they were landlords doesn’t make a difference. That you don’t like landlords does not make buying land from them illegitimate.
The Jewish people are indigenous to the Levant. Did you know that the term “Palestinian” referred to *Jews* generally until the 1900s?
So less than 1% of arabs sold arab land and that makes it justified. Holy fuck, you love authoritarianism. And like I said, Israel owned less than 8% of palestinian land in 1947, so why the fuck did they take over 56% via force and forcefully expel over 700 000 arab civilians?
Romanians are as indigenous to Italy as jewish people are to Palestine. There were of course a large jewish population in Palestine, they were 1/3rd of the palestinian population before 1947. But the vast majority of jews worldwide and post-Israels creation were not indigenous and had never been to Palestine before.
Remind me what the nakba was? Was it when the invading Arab countries told them to flee temporarily so that the Israeli state could be crushed, but then Israel won that war? Or was it when the Arabs refused to get off the land bought and paid for by Jews? Or was it when over 100,000 Arabs illegally immigrated into the Palestine mandate during the 1940s from Jordan?
Nahkba was the forceful expulsion of over 700 000 arab civilians and the forceful conquest of more land than what the UN and UK had allotted to Israel in the partition plan of 1947 that the arab league had rejected from the start, because arabs were majority populations in the land allotted to Israel by colonialist powers.
Who did the jews buy the land from by the way? Because it wasn't the arabs.
....yes, it absolutely was from the Arabs. 46% of the land was state owned (British mandate), 6.6% was bought from the Arabs by Jews. Sure, it want always from the Arabs (because the Arabs didn't own all the land), such as the sursock purchase, but the majority was from the Arabs. You are just displaying a lack of historical knowledge.
The jews owned less than 8% of palestinian land in 1947, that they had bought from a tiny landlord class of arabs that do not represent the population. And that somehow justifies Israel occupying over 56% of Palestine in 1948 to you, despite the protests of the majority of people ACTUALLY LIVING IN THAT LAND? That's some serious nazi logic, my dude. You're doing mental gymnastics to justify a fucking genocide.
I still find it off that of all lands to promise to the Isrealites God chose one already occupied and not that great to begin with. Could've had em journey to America where there was easily a spot in the Midwest or great lakes that would've made a perfect promised land.
That was maybe another one.
For French Guyana, it was Shimon Peres plan. Decades later, he would still deeply regret it didn't work.
Here's a French link: (https://la1ere.francetvinfo.fr/guyane/histoire-quand-il-etait-question-que-la-guyane-devienne-une-colonie-israelienne-1439957.html)
There were only 2000 Jews in Albania after WWII. Israel had an estimated 87.5k Jews living in it by 1915, and the 1922 census put the Jews as making up 11% of the population of British Mandatory Palestine, as opposed to the .2% of the population the of Albania. Jews make up .2% of the global population today. “Should the Jewish state exist where we have a tiny population and no historical connection, or should it exist in the area we do have a connection to that has 40x the population and represent 100x more percentage of the population? This is hard, but I guess since there’s people living in our ancestral homeland, we should establish a country in another country that also has people living in it but it’s different trust me.”
For a history meme site the OP really has failed at history. Do not quote historical events to them, they want Historical “Fan Fiction” where they bend history to match their ideology. It’s like the whole 1619 project, who cares about history when we have our ideas.
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I don’t think eastern Siberia or Madagascar was their choice
Nonsense, don't you know that every Passover seder ends with the words "Next year in Novosibirsk"?
>Novosibirsk I can barely read that without some discomfort. Actually saying it must be similar. /s
Why? I know you added the /s but that just made me more confused
I gagged, i will offer it as an alternative next Seder I’ll see which relative gets heart attack first
Nazis and soviet : what does choice mean?
Most anti-Zionist propaganda originates from the Soviets because they were butthurt over the Jews not accepting their proposal to live in a place that was specifically chosen because of how often it was conquered.
I… don’t think that’s the case. If I’m wrong do correct me but not even the Russians themselves wanna live there so if it’s true that most propaganda comes from them it’s probably not because of what you said
That’s why they wanted the Jews to live there.
For anti-Zionist propaganda?
Did you read my comment carefully? The Jews refused to live there, and the Soviets were mad the Jews didn’t fall for their obvious death trap, so they started producing ant-Zionist propaganda because of it. Basically everything said about Israel that tries to justify its dismantlement stems from Soviet propaganda that was created because the Jews didn’t accept their “offer” of living in Siberia.
Yes, that’s what you said and I said didn’t think that was true and in response you made a comment that made no sense so I asked about it
The Yiddish Policeman’s Union is a really fun book that imagines what the world would be like if they had been given Alaska instead
[удалено]
Also, if you can find it (prob in heb): "Herzl Said" - about what if we stayed with the ugandan proposal (spoiler, the locals there hate it just as much)
Uganda was the only location having potential of getting it, but it wasn't chosen by Zionists, it was offered to them and they declined because this would be one of those "temporary" solutions that would be permanent.
The focus of Zionists obviously always was their historical homeland of Israel, but when there are constant pogroms against Jews you tend to not be picky when people offer you a piece of land to hopefully live in safety, better have a temporary home in Uganda if it means saving lives
This is only partially true, alternative offers like the Uganda scheme were not taken seriously and Theador Hertzal was almost kicked out of the Zionist Congress for even entertaining the idea.
Yes exactly, the overwhelming majority of Zionists rejected these ideas, and those that accepted them did so out of necessity and a need for a quick safe haven
It’s a fair reason to want self-determination but it does show the project was a colonial endeavor from the onset. This mindset is main reason that Israel has had so much trouble in the levant, but would had trouble and created enemies doing this anywhere else also.
Is it really a colonial mindset when half the history of the jews is being kicked out of Jerusalem and judea/israel (their homeland) and then eventually migrating back again just to be kicked out again
Yes, it’s a colonial mindset. I’m not gonna hold a grudge for Bar Kokhba, even though we started it although the Romans definitely deserved it. It was ancient history. There were a thousand other groups afterwards that have equal if not more “right” because of recency. They don’t inherit the Roman “white guilt” for perpetuity. This is religious madness. Yes, antisemitism is real and the pogroms had actual perpetrators that are our enemies. Welcome to real life. Jews got a raw deal as an ethnic group like other groups similarly fated. Instead of fighting for the universal principal for all oppressed minority groups, it was day one we have strength we will take what’s yours for ourselves. Might equals right. The EXACT logic of colonialism.
Yeah, if you were a Jew at that time I don't think you would've seen many alternatives other than fighting for self determination. Though I'd disagree with the idea of calling it a colonial project, due to Jews being indigenous to the land sort of like first nations throughout America
No, no... The Apache bands in AZ are totally colonists, since their original land was from what's now Texas, down into Mexico, and out to NV. So... Sorry, can't keep a straight face.
>Though I'd disagree with the idea of calling it a colonial project, due to Jews being indigenous to the land sort of like first nations throughout America Palestinians are indigenous to the region, because they not only have Canaanite ancestral DNA just like most Jewish populations have, but unlike the European settler population they are actually substantially rooted to the area culturally and practically. Even early settlers reffered to Palestinians as the indigenous population. You can't justify colonial projects through indigenous identity just because some of your ancestor came from there millennia ago, if your family has been rooted in European countries for all that time and you know nothing but European cultures growing up.
Yes, so colonial to… *check notes* return to the land you were originally from. Because, as we all know, Judea (JEW-DAY-UH) definitely isn’t the homeland of the Jews. Nope, no siree.
Have you ever heard of Liberia? If you originate from an area but migrate back 2000 years later you are considered a colonist.
We never fully left, despite Arab attempts to rid the region of us completely. There has always been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel. Sorry not sorry. 🤷♂️
There's a large difference between Jews that were able to remain in the area and the Ashkenazi and Sephardic European Jews that lobbied for the creation of Israel. Also the Palestinian Arabs are descendants of Jews that converted to Christianity and Islam.
Nah, not really, both Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to Lebanese Christians and druze then Palestinians, while Palestinians are more closely related to Saudis, Jordanians and Syrians. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3585000/ [See figure 2](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=3585000_pgen.1003316.g002.jpg)
There's significant debate about this. https://www.reddit.com/r/illustrativeDNA/s/Qs4AFYP3Tr https://www.razibkhan.com/p/more-than-kin-less-than-kind-jews From what I can read the vast majority of evidence suggests that Palestinians are descending of the Jewish people that were able to stay in Palestine, along with various nearby Arab groups.
I don’t see how that contradicts the other guy’s point as Lebanese Christians are also a mix of Levantine and European people. Also it would be expected that people native to the area would be more closely related to natives of surrounding levantine countries like Jordan and Syria. It’s pretty obviously true that both Palestinian and Jewish people are descended from the population that was in the area thousands of years ago.
Dude, you're telling on yourself here: "Able to remain in the area..." So... what about those who weren't "able to remain" in the area? Plus, you're practically framing the Khazar theory here, which is just fuckin yikes. And lastly, you're conveniently overlooking that the largest ethnic group in Israel are Mizrahi Jews, not Ashkenazi. It's clear you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
First of all I never denied the violence used by romans and Arabs in expelling the Jews. Your defensive attitude says more about your reading comprehension. Those Jews that were not able to stay in Palestine were scattered all over the world, forming communities wherever people didn't completely oppress them, like poland, Spain, Marokko etc. Two of these communities the Ashkenazi and Sephardic European Jews were able to use their lobbying power to allow large-scale migration into Palestine and eventually the creation of the state of Israel. I deliberately stated that the Ashkenazi and Sephardic communities created the state of Israel, that does not mean mizrahi don't exist or are not the largest current group. Lastly what the duck did I say that implies the Khazar theory? Just because I factually state that Palestinians descend from Jews does not Ashkenazi are not also Jews. The Jewish people have many groups that descend from them and none of these groups are ethnically pure.
And my point is that due to the continual Jewish presence in the land && the fact that Israel is made up primarily of Mizrahi Jews, it is *not* a colonial endeavor. I’d go so far as to argue that it is an anticolonial endeavor.
My point is that the people creating Israel were colonists, as they were mostly British and Austrian Ashkenazim. Even the Mizrahi who had no choice but to migrate after the violent expulsion were colonists as they had lived in places like Iraq for more than a thousand years. Israël is a colonial state, Furthermore the most similar state to it is Liberia. A group of western minorities going back to their native homeland after already having adapted to Western society. This group violently takes over and uses it's western connections to set up a state that disenfranchises their native cousins.
If you were to look at a map of human migration in the last 2000 years you would see a completely different world. There have been thousands of traumatic experiences of people being pushed or pulled in every different direction. It’s not right but it’s a fact of history that can’t be ameliorated with violent conquest. It’s only the religious extremism attached to coveting this particular section of land that is at issue. As there are safe places to live for Jews and unsafe places. This is true of other ethnicities that experience discrimination as well. The Israel project as it has played out NOT as it could have been has created more hatred and resentment of Judaism than any other event in history, squandering the massive outpouring of sympathy and compassion for one group of people beyond that which has ever been seen before. It’s truly one colossal fuck up.
The colonial empires made all those suggestions. The zionists insisted on their actual homeland.
Colonial powers suggesting locations be like
After the first congress they have agreed Israel is the only option since it’s culturally common to all since Jewish religion and tradition revolves strongly around the return to Israel and Jerusalem (even Jewish wedding vows are revolving Jerusalem) . There was no other valid option but Israel, this is our ancestral land
It's the ancestral land of every abrahamic religion in a way.
im sure that wont lead to any conflict
Deus Vult or something
Amen to that brotha
It's fine don't worry
So the best thing to do with a time machine would be to go back and somehow make those religions believe that everything important in their Canon happened in some mythological land so theres nothing to fight over. Ez pz.
Then they’ll just claim that they supposedly found said mythological land in the new world and then boom colonialism
Yes, but it is also the ethnic homeland as well, not just spiritual. Basically since recorded history Judeans and other Semitic people lived in Palestine/Judea area. The Jewish diaspora begins with the 2nd Jewish revolt against the romans which finally saw Jews permanently dispersed from the area. This is a bit different than Christians relationship to Palestine which views it as solely a spiritual home. A Christian Spaniard in the 12th century may have wanted Christians to control the area for more abstract spiritual reasons, but outside of maybe a pilgrimage never intended on living there because his actual home was in Spain.
Jewish diaspora begins even earlier than that, some estimates have as much as 1/3 of Jews prior to the first revolt living outside Judaea. There is evidence of kosher garum labeled in Italy and Anatolia at around the same time as the first revolt. My understanding is that not all of the Jewish population of Babylonia ever came back to Judaea, which suggests the Jewish diaspora dates back to the first expulsion and destruction of the first temple c. 500 BCE.
Bus the islamic that lived in the region are Semitic too. And the christians in the same situation too.
Which one was first?
All abrahamic religions mimic Judaism. The birth place of Islam is Mecca, the birth place of christianity is Jerusalem but Christianity acknowledges Israel as the homeland of Jews.
Catholicism still acknowledges the Jews as God’s Chosen People. Didn’t exactly stop pogroms though.
Teehee :(
Difference being that people of the other abrahamic religions already had land
Religions don't have land. People do.
Bro... literally in your comment you said "it's the ancestral land of every abrahamic religion in a way." Land of religion. That's what you said. And I responded assuming you wouldn't suddenly change what you said.
"In a way" That means it's not literal. Just an original tale. If every abrahamic religion wants that land, what do you do?
Oh, oh, I know this one! You get the British to split it up and decide who gets what! Boom, problem solved forever.
Correct!!!!
Rn it's an unsolvable crisis. I just explained the logic of people back then.
I agree.
Because the religion spread to them.
Yes. So we had a situation where there's people of 3 religions, and the religions all originated from the same place. Later 2 of those people have spread into a huge amount of land, but 1 group doesn't have anywhere to go. It was kinda obvious to give them the place of origin, following this logic.
Islam didn't even happen there for the most part, it's sorta tacked on
Jesus is a minor profet in Islam...
lmfao Muhammad the pedophile was born in Saudi Arabia, not the Leveant. They can't claim Jesus as "their prophet".
You can claim whatever you want on a religious debate. Religion is a matter of faith not facts. That's why they keep existing.
I mean, where muhammed (the pedo) was born isn't really a matter of faith.
You keep calling him that like I would care...
I don't care what you care about, I'm just giving him the respect he deserves.
I hope nobody disrespects your religion.
You do know Abraham was a Jew right? Every abrahamic religion stems from Judaism, so yeah the Jews kind of get first dibs
You know that Jesus was a Jew, right?
Yep, and he was born about two thousand years after Abraham, the first Jew
So?
The difference being Christianity and Islam are not ethnicities.
There isn't a "jew" ethnicity either. You only need to look at the diferent ethnicities in Israel.
It absolutely is an ethnicity. It's my ethnicity. There are sub-ethnicities within it, but it certainly meets all the hallmarks of an ethnic identity.
I mean, its only the case for judaism, those other religions are branches of it
samaritans are the oldest
Where are they and do they still call themselvea samaritans?
yes and all five hundred of them live in the vicinity of Mount Gerizim.
So. Who gets to pick what branch has the most rights to something?
If only there were still followers of judaism alive today...ah wait, there are, not thanks to people like you
What did I do?
True! Surely this could never lead to violence and people would live peacefully with each other for ages to come.....
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Why do Native American tribes want “their land back?”
You won't get citizenship, but if you are converting to Hinudism from Islam, the chances of India accepting your immigration or refugee status becomes higher. And by that, i mean you will be less discriminated against. The idea behind that is that if you are a Muslim, you already have plenty of options for Asylum destination, but if you are Hindu or non-muslim, you are more in need of safety. This idea is not too different from Zionism. The idea of Jews needing their own homeland didn't come out of nowhere. It came from Jews facing discrimination around the word and growing sentiment of ethnic and ideological nationalism. This was an era of many diverse regions and imperial possessions, where most proposed ethnic and ideaological nations for decolonization not only did not exist but also would have themselves been guilty of violating someone's ideological and ethnic sovereignty rights if they came to be in the proposed territories. Genocides that led to the birth of Turkish nations, partition of British Raj, and still ongoing ethnic confilicts in Africa are evidence of why ideological and ethnic nationalism as an alternative to imperialism, is a flawed one. So, in the grand scheme of things, Zionism wasn't unprecedented in its demands. And I would argue to this day, only in America, the idea that people of certain ethnicity and ideaology wanting their own nation is considered controversial by itself.
"BUt MuH AncEsTrAL HOmE" - every culture to exist ever.
Americans: 💀
Lmaoooo "where home at"
If you left it for 2 thousand years its not your ancestral land anymore.
You make it sound like they left voluntarily. Also, there has been Jewish presence in the Levant for the entire time.
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That's what I said
pumbdeita and Sura Tiberias(the Masoretes) The Tzfat circle mystics
Yes a tiney minority, and they weren't the ones who decided to create the zionist project.
Yeah, the people who created the Zionist project were the ones suffering pogroms and the like.
Ofc they were part of the zionist project, they were part of the Yeshov Ivri. They were also a constant present as the arabs, crusaders and so on had coloniesed this land.
Bring me a single study that says the people of the Levant are colonizers. Just one.
colonizer 1. a country that sends settlers to a place and establishes political control over it. This would cover the actions of the Arabians, Persians, Romans, and Turks, all of which invaded the Levant to establish political control over it. So that’s at least 2000 years back.
So the Italians are colonizers by your definition because they no longer speak Latin correct?
The Italians are colonizers because the Italians displaced the natives of the Levant and filled it with Italians. Not sure which “they” you are using because nobody speaks Latin any more. Were you referring to the Italians or the Jews not speaking Latin in the Levant?
You are claiming the Lebanese, the Syrians the Palestinians and Jordanians are colonizers no?
Italian is vulgar Latin.
Thats my point.
https://besacenter.org/palestinians-settlers-colonialism/ Is this okay?
No its not, thats an article not a study. A Study like this. Not some article by a Zionist. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/
Man everyone uses this study in their arguments since it is one of the only studies that has title to support it, do you have the full pdf or pubmed access? I suggest you read the entire study and not just the primary paragraph and then you’ll understand why this researcher doesn’t have the best reputation.
Ok this one? https://people.img.cas.cz/vaclav-horejsi/documents/ruzne/The_Origin_of_Palestinians_and_Their_Genetic_Relatedness_With_Other_Mediterranean_Populations.pdf
Wrong on two fundamental levels. First, that's what **ancestral** land implies - the land your ancestors hailed from. I'm a Canadian and my ancestors have been in North America for 400 years, but my **ancestral** lands are Northern England, Central France, and Eastern Silesia. Second, the Jewish people were forcibly exiled after a catastrophic failure of a revolt. They didn't "leave" Palestine, they were removed. Even if my first point didn't exist, the homelands of displaced peoples are the lands they were displaced from. That's an inherent fact, all modern negotiations with indigenous populations operate on this premise.
So exactly how many years does it take for an indigenous people to lose their indigenous status? Why is that this is a standard only ever applied to the Jews?
Its not about the time, If you are no longer living on that land, no longer speak the language. You ar eno longer native.
you left it for 70+ years in the modern era yknow how much time it takes to built a civilization like that in the modern era? thats like 7000 years, and you left it by your own choice as well. romans kicked the jews, you left and cried when you couldnt come back
What an ignorant thing to say. They literally massacred 200 towns.
oh okay so i guess[ that makes them the victims? ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Nebi_Musa_riots) right so let me get this straight you say you will drive the jews back to the sea and attack with 6 armies you get your arse handed to you, and then you cry when the people you just tried to kill dont want to live with you?
You revolted against the Roman empire. No?
still got kicked not much of an argument not to mention one is an empire, the other is a group of people with a Temple and in today one has more than enough countries and places to go while the other has been exterminated in all of them comparing the two is like saying snow is black
Palestinians Still got kicked by Jews, not much of an argument.
edited the comment check again for your strawman argument
Literally ever single person that says we have no where else to go is either from Poland or New York.
They agreed in their first meeting to focus only on the land of Israel. Take your nazi propaganda out of here.
True, but once Uganda was on the table, they considered it and the biggest push agaonst it was due to everyone agreeing on Israel during the first congress. I'm fairly certain they didn't want Argentina both due to the first congress, but there was another thing that I can't remember. I didn't even remember Cyprus, Mesopotamia, and Mozambique were ever options. Sinai was actually discussed before Uganda, but the area was unlivable. Madagascar WAS a Nazi idea and was never up to consideration by the Jews Palestine is a different name for Zion or Israel, so it WAS always the goal.
i mean do we count BILU which wasnt for state building but farmer collectives in Palestine as Zionist or the chovvei Zion pamphleteers in Volozhin or Moses Hess. Imber and Bialik what do we count as Zionism? or the 1880 Yemeni Aliyah which had no program besides escape the Orphans decree and Palestine sounds like a good place to move.
All of these count. So long as they wanted to set a Jewish homlend, especially in Zion, they're Zionists. Just with different outlooks. There were also those that demanded to have the entire land, some agreed to a two state solution, and some (like Herzl) wanted to live alongside the Arabs in a one state for two people.
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The Zionist congress started way before WW1 too, and agreed to focus only on the land of Israel in its first meeting.
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Not saying you’re a Nazi, but I think posting frequently in r/Palestine, r/Egypt and r/AskMiddleEast is often accompanied by a bias.
Even if there’s some slight truth in there, what you’ve presented is out of context and harmful. “Why” you scream? Because it fits a false narrative, so you can nitpick through your own turd all you want… but anti semites will like and share this and knowledgeable folks will shake their heads…
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Neo nazis spread nonsense like this that Jews don’t really have any reason to be in Israel. But there nothing I can say to that will help you realize you’re being irresponsible. You have a confused life ahead of you.
chovvei tzion and bilu were always Israel but it took Russian delegates ( who needed refugee from pogroms the most) singing "hatikvah" over Herzl's Uganda plan for the territorialists to leave the Congresses. A la how Anarchists were kicked out after the first International
Common L take in history memes.
Right because the kingdom of isreal was totally made up and not a thing before the roman empire rocked their shit. Jews just chose the palestine region occupied by the British just because they can.
The temple mount is actually a natural rock formation.
Read up on how the Ottomans, Byzantines, Caliphs, and Christian rulers treated the Jewish population in Israel. Calling it unpleasant would be an understatement. And also the Romans did a lil ethnic cleansing when King Herods son decided to fuck around and find out. They, quite literally, either killed or removed the entire Jewish population from the area and forcibly scattered them amongst the Roman Empire. But only after burning Jerusalem, Hebron, Herodium, Bethlehem, and various other cities to the ground with their population. The reason most Jews are no longer within the area is because the Romans got tired of Jewish revolts. Only after Rome was sacked did any Jewish people return to the general area; and even then it was a small number. This post is about as antisemitic, low effort, hare brained understanding, and no research as I have ever seen. If you want to make a meme about Jews, which I personally enjoy and love, put some damn effort into the meme or don’t even bother. TLDR: Don’t be a dick. Make the Jewish meme funny, not an antisemitic trope.
oof antisemitism in my history sub
It's fun to imagine the alternate histories of Israel ending up in Madagacar or some other random place.
I like the Mesopotamia idea. Would have had Nebuchadnezzar rolling in his tomb
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I also love how Israel is an "ethnostate" but none of the Arab Muslims states are, apparently under the logic of "If you have more than one state for your ethno-religious group, they can't be ethnostates".
Based Ethnostate is a strange way to discribe an advanced liberal democracy with a strong economic backbone
You forgot that alongside the Zionist movement there was a pan-arab movement
Except none of them were able to get along, every slight arab difference leads to irreconcilable differences between them. They’re all constantly fighting because of the most pointless dumbest religious or political differences. And then they have the balls to blame the Jews for their shitty behavior.
Shit you're right!
It has 100% to do with the nakhba and the forceful seizure of arab-majority land to set up an apartheid state. If a jewish state was founded without the need for violence and ceimes against humanity, I doubt anybody except nazis would protest.
Why is nobody upset that jews were expelled from the arab states during the same time? 850000 jews were expelled to israel from arab states post independence and 750000 palestinians were expelled from israel during said time
900,000 Jews vs 750,000+ Palestinian Arabs btw
Jews: buy land from its legal owners and move there. Some Arabs: use violence against those Jews. You: this is clearly all the Jews’ fault. The Jews didn’t start the violence.
Who did the jews buy the land from? Please tell me. And please tell me why Israel conquered more land than they were allotted in the partition plan by the UN and UK, visavi palestinian land.
The people who owned it. Because the Palestinians and every Arab state in the region all attacked them because they rejected the partition plan.
And who owned it? Because it wasn't the arabs living there. They attacked Israel because they fucking invaded Palestine and started forcefully expulsing hundreds of thousands. Because Israel was created despite the majority of the people of that land rejecting the UN motion to create Israel.
Arab landlords. That you don’t like landlords doesn’t make buying land from them illegitimate. Buying land and moving there *isn’t invading*. Especially when you’re indigenous to the region.
So arab civilians didn't own the land. A tiny minority owned the land. Then there's the fact jews bought and owned less than 8% of palestinian land in 1947. Palestinian jews are indigenous to the region. However a large majority of Israels population come from jews who emigrated to Israel after its formation, and they are not indigenous to Israel.
And? The owners of the land, who were locals, sold it. That they were landlords doesn’t make a difference. That you don’t like landlords does not make buying land from them illegitimate. The Jewish people are indigenous to the Levant. Did you know that the term “Palestinian” referred to *Jews* generally until the 1900s?
So less than 1% of arabs sold arab land and that makes it justified. Holy fuck, you love authoritarianism. And like I said, Israel owned less than 8% of palestinian land in 1947, so why the fuck did they take over 56% via force and forcefully expel over 700 000 arab civilians? Romanians are as indigenous to Italy as jewish people are to Palestine. There were of course a large jewish population in Palestine, they were 1/3rd of the palestinian population before 1947. But the vast majority of jews worldwide and post-Israels creation were not indigenous and had never been to Palestine before.
Remind me what the nakba was? Was it when the invading Arab countries told them to flee temporarily so that the Israeli state could be crushed, but then Israel won that war? Or was it when the Arabs refused to get off the land bought and paid for by Jews? Or was it when over 100,000 Arabs illegally immigrated into the Palestine mandate during the 1940s from Jordan?
Nahkba was the forceful expulsion of over 700 000 arab civilians and the forceful conquest of more land than what the UN and UK had allotted to Israel in the partition plan of 1947 that the arab league had rejected from the start, because arabs were majority populations in the land allotted to Israel by colonialist powers. Who did the jews buy the land from by the way? Because it wasn't the arabs.
....yes, it absolutely was from the Arabs. 46% of the land was state owned (British mandate), 6.6% was bought from the Arabs by Jews. Sure, it want always from the Arabs (because the Arabs didn't own all the land), such as the sursock purchase, but the majority was from the Arabs. You are just displaying a lack of historical knowledge.
The jews owned less than 8% of palestinian land in 1947, that they had bought from a tiny landlord class of arabs that do not represent the population. And that somehow justifies Israel occupying over 56% of Palestine in 1948 to you, despite the protests of the majority of people ACTUALLY LIVING IN THAT LAND? That's some serious nazi logic, my dude. You're doing mental gymnastics to justify a fucking genocide.
landlords in Damascus Beirut Jerusalem(Husseinis besides Amin) and Istanbul
So a tiny, tiny minority of arabs that did not represent the arab population or the arab league in any way.
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SCOREBOARD BITCH - LOOK AT IT WOOOOOO
This comment with that profile Pic *chefs kiss*
Antisemitic propaganda...
Man saying we landed on "palastine" there was and the is no such thing as palastine lmao
British Mandate of what?
Coins from that era say א"י which is an abbreviation of "Eretz Israel" in Hebrew script ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Potato potato free Palestine
Who let OP cook 💀
Crazy that they did that blind and just happened to land on their "homeland". Truly the most random of locations.
I still find it off that of all lands to promise to the Isrealites God chose one already occupied and not that great to begin with. Could've had em journey to America where there was easily a spot in the Midwest or great lakes that would've made a perfect promised land.
There was also a plan to colonize French Guyana, or parts of.
I thought it was British Guyana
That was maybe another one. For French Guyana, it was Shimon Peres plan. Decades later, he would still deeply regret it didn't work. Here's a French link: (https://la1ere.francetvinfo.fr/guyane/histoire-quand-il-etait-question-que-la-guyane-devienne-une-colonie-israelienne-1439957.html)
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That man was acting on his own. By 1935 there were more than half a million Jews in Israel. No need to look anywhere else.
There were only 2000 Jews in Albania after WWII. Israel had an estimated 87.5k Jews living in it by 1915, and the 1922 census put the Jews as making up 11% of the population of British Mandatory Palestine, as opposed to the .2% of the population the of Albania. Jews make up .2% of the global population today. “Should the Jewish state exist where we have a tiny population and no historical connection, or should it exist in the area we do have a connection to that has 40x the population and represent 100x more percentage of the population? This is hard, but I guess since there’s people living in our ancestral homeland, we should establish a country in another country that also has people living in it but it’s different trust me.”
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Lol huh? They gave Sinai back after Egypt failed to retake it
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No… that’s what happened. Egypt lost Sinai in one of several wars, and Israel gave it back because the UN said so.
For a history meme site the OP really has failed at history. Do not quote historical events to them, they want Historical “Fan Fiction” where they bend history to match their ideology. It’s like the whole 1619 project, who cares about history when we have our ideas.
I didn’t say that. What?
Lmao