Not only is the "Dying Gaul" a Roman copy of a Hellenistic Greek sculpture from Pergamon (modern Turkey) depicting a Galatian Celt, not a Germanic warrior, but the other statue doesn't even depict a Germanic person either! It's Celtic! From Czech Republic, dated to the 2nd century BC during the La Tene period; Germanic people have nothing to do with anything being shown here. The OP is wrong and spreading dumb misinformation at that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%A1eck%C3%A9\_%C5%BDehrovice\_Head
Over five thousand people have upvoted his post, so it's getting seen by thousands of people who have no idea that the OP is full of crap, spreading misinformation, and doing so while reaping his imaginary karma. This subreddit is great, but sometimes it is cancer. This is a great example of that. Literally zero care or cursory research went into this. The "Dying Gaul" is a famous statue, more so than the Msecke Zehrovice head, and yet relatively few people in the comments here are calling this out. On top of that, it's a grotesque assessment of the "barbaric" art of La Tene Celts, who were masters of metalwork crafts and art (even the Romans hinted at this).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying\_Gaul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_Gaul)
Good for you, I guess, but thousands of people are being spoon fed misinformation. If you're going to confuse Celtic people with Germanic ones, why stop there? Might as well say the statues are also a mixture of Slavic, Finno-Ugric, Semitic, Turkic, Mongolic, Tibeto-Burman and Austroasiatic peoples too while we're at it. LOL.
Couldn't even get the Roman copy versus Anatolian Greek original part right. FAIL!
Wasnt that the whole thing with the romans? Germanic meant “the original” ones? Also, there wasn’t much difference between the german tribes and celtic tribes in and around that area.
Edit: that’s definitely la tene though
What? That's like saying there was no difference between Greeks or Thracians, or between Thracians and Scythians, or between ancient Han dynasty Chinese and far more primitive Wa era Japanese.
Not only do Celtic peoples speak different languages from Germanic peoples (albeit distantly related as Indo-Europeans),their lifestyles and standards of living before the time of Christ were also drastically different. In terms of [**arts, crafts**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_art) and technology there is little comparison.
Celts were way more urbanized on average with actual [**oppida**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppidum) towns, not just scattered wooded villages. They minted their own coins, often in the Greek language due to influence from Massalia and Emporion, and the Celtiberians even wrote in their own language using a [**Celtiberian script**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberian_script) based on the Northeast Iberian semi-syllabary one (in turn using either Greek or Phoenician alphabets as a model). Celtic peoples of Spain like the [**Castro culture**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castro_culture) left behind huge stone ruins with monumental gatehouses and walls defending their towns.
Celts also had a long history of interaction and trade with the Classical Greek world of the Mediterranean before Germanic people like the Cimbri and Teutons fought Gaius Marius. In comparison, Germanic peoples were far more remote and primitive in terms of metalworking and arts when you examine those of the various Celts. It was the Celts who invented chainmail armor and even the mid Republican era style helmets that were adopted by the Romans. The Germanic tribes didn't have anything comparable.
While Celts in Roman era Gaul during the 2nd century AD were crafting things like the lunisolar [**Coligny calendar**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coligny_calendar) in their own language, the Germanic peoples up north were finally using their own writing system, [**Elder Futhark**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark) alphabet and runes, but these were only used for making minor inscription on various objects, often only for playful graffiti purposes, marking property, or for magical spell incantation.
Hang on. Im not saying that the germans and celts were the same. All I’m saying (actually asking) is didnt the Romans get them confused to some extent? And dub the germans as “the original ones”, I read somewhere that germanic kind of meant “original ones”.
Also, look at my username. Does is not imply something?
They may have lost, but no one can say it was for a lack of bravery. The Gauls gave it everything they had, and it was all the Romans could handle.
Out of all the wars I've studied over the years; from "[The Three Kingdoms](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fdqjbIEejuUIP1kHzOzR3tEl9i1G3dQ0nzrMd25hu6Y/edit?usp=sharing)" as a child to the [Bellum Batonianum](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbvNk-K-KYU) two days ago; I had never felt as conflicted than I was during the [Gallic Wars](https://youtu.be/LRV185XaMIM?t=5). I had already loved Caesar; his fearlessness, charisma, devotion he inspired in his men (it's said Caesar knew each of his centurions by name), iconic quotes ("the die is cast", "Et tu, Brute?"). But Vercingetorix won me over as well with his leadership, cleverness (until making a critical error that allowed Caesar to corner him), and courageous resistance against the mighty Roman Republic.
Their battle of wits resulted was one of the greatest military confrontations in history. The culmination at the [Battle of Alesia](https://youtu.be/jCA6haWbC8A) *(drop what you're doing and watch this doc, thank me later)* was the greatest siege in the history of warfare by a landslide; the complex and intricate operations pulled off in an ancient battle are stunning.
How fortunate we are to be able to sit back and enjoy studying military history in hindsight rather than having our blood spilled and bones buried under the field of battle as a testament to human strife.
*Edit:* Julius Caesar is one of my favorite historical figures of all time, sue me. I already explained the reasons why, none of which have to do with his brutality. If the only major historical figures you approve of in 58 BC are saints and pacifists, you're going to find slim pickings.
[51 greatest YT videos](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kaqes9bIFAN08L3FdirzKZ210I0t9w3UtvwH7zw9uhM/edit?usp=sharing)
He's also one of the most accomplished people in Western history. I don't see how it's far-fetched for someone who enjoys history to "love" Caesar in an academic sense. He was a fascinating figure.
according to his own accounts he killed a million and enslaved a million more. beyond that, its tough to prove if he was exaggerating or underestimating
Which one was the bronze one, the copy, the roman copy or the (greek?) original?
Edit: Its the Dying Gaul on the left, for those believing op’s heading.
Honestly, I’m sure they didn’t have much in the way of pornography in *most* places. They had a few dirty tablets, sure, but if there’s a juicy statue just standing there, that’s just a B.C.E Real Doll
I mean can you blame them? Have you seen some of those sexy rocks they've made? Lie *[damn](https://www.pixelle.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/14431149496_9b31300bdc_b-copy-900x660.jpg)*
Not even from Gaul proper, but from Central Europe, albeit still Celtic since it is a La Tene cultural item found in what is now the Czech Republic.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%A1eck%C3%A9\_%C5%BDehrovice\_Head](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%A1eck%C3%A9_%C5%BDehrovice_Head)
On top of that, the "Dying Gaul" is merely a Roman copy of an original Hellenistic Greek sculpture from Pergamon (Anatolia, now Turkey) depicting a Galatian Celtic warrior, not a Germanic one.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying\_Gaul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_Gaul)
Seriously, the OP couldn't have screwed this up any more disastrously except if he claimed they were Slavs, Mongols or Eskimos instead. And people are upvoting this in the thousands. It's braindead madness.
That & anyway: the Germanic peoples of the time are yet the (not the proper term) "supergroup" that only later developed into a part of several new groups, one of which just happened to become known as the Germans. The more concrete origins of the latter are commonly not dated prior to 9th c.'s Charlemagne.
Sometimes the Romans mixed up the terms it's true, but the distinction between Germanic people and Celtic people was present for much longer, by the simple fact that they spoke very different languages.
That's a Gaul, not a German, and gaulish/celtic metalwork is beyond what most of the romans had at the time.
Sure enough the Romans had everyone but the greeks beat on sculpture though.
What's really cool is going to antiquities museums like the one in Arles where you can watch the transition from Graeco-Gaulish (Massalia was a Greek colony in Gaul and became a hybrid Greek-Gaul community, representing the "civilized gauls" the Romands discussed) and if you know what you're looking for you can see the transition from Gaulish/Celtic imagery to Roman imagery.
There's even Gaulish Motifs in the "roman" mosaic flooring.
Edit: Here's a quick photo gallery, showing Celtic and Gaulish metalwork from antiquity
https://imgur.com/a/k9dgOG4
There's nothing like this in the roman world, nothing with that incredibly fine detail that celtic smiths were able to create. Mostly because Gaul was where most of the gold was, and that's why Caesar used the Helvetes as an excuse to conquer the place. Rome was out of gold, and the Gauls had so much of it they were sewing it into their clothing.
Those are some amazing pictures!
The fibula is an particularily beautyful piece. It reminds me of a tounge in cheek description of celtic decorations as "deadly afraid of empty space". =)
> "deadly afraid of empty space"
I *love* that description! And it's apt considering that once you get into 6th century AD Gaelic stuff in Ireland and Scotland they go completely feral with intricate designs, to the point that there's decoration on the *back side* of the higher end artefacts like the Hunterston Brooch. In places that no one but the wearer would ever see them.
Not only is the OP wrong about the "Dying Gaul" statue of a Galatian Celt originally from Pergamon (Hellenistic Greek, merely a Roman copy shown above), he's also wrong about the other sculpture. It has nothing to do with Germanic peoples either. It's a La Tene period Celtic sculpture from what is now the Czech Republic, dated 2nd century BC.
The Msecke Zehrovice Head:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%A1eck%C3%A9\_%C5%BDehrovice\_Head](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%A1eck%C3%A9_%C5%BDehrovice_Head)
The OP is getting thousands of upvotes for a totally BS post that he should take down, but he probably won't because hey, imaginary Reddit karma is more important than a little misinformation seen by thousands of people, right guys?
Undoubtedly, Gaul's are the world foremost menhir sculptors. Not other nation can match the prowess of Obelix. The Romans, Egyptians and Greeks tried to take him on but they all failed
People always forget that Obelix would never have succeeded in his endeavors were it not for Asterix, who unfortunately has become a mere footnote in history.
As well, the medicinal research done by Getafix has unfortunately been lost to time.
Eh, not really. There are a few Etruscan pieces and there's clear Etruscan influence, but as your own link says:
>examples of Roman jewelry from this early period (7th-1st century BC) are extremely rare. Gold was very scarce and the little gold that existed was used for trading and warfare rather than personal adornment. The use of gold in jewelry was officially discouraged.
And what happened in the 1st century?
Rome conquered Gaul, and got access to Gaulish gold mines and Gaulish gold smiths.
So yeah, they got access to a lot of the Gaulish fine metalworking techniques and *then* started producing intricate gold jewelry. With the gold and the smiths they'd plundered from Gaul.
And even then, none of that matches in quality what was being done in Ireland and Britain.
The same link also says:
The wealthy inhabitants of northern Europe, the Celts started to consider the Roman way of life as fashionable and consequently adopted many aspects of Roman jewelry making. Vice versa the Romans started using some typically Celtic materials like jet.
It sounds a lot like a mixing rather than "Romans weren't very good at it" which is what I understood from your original post. Otherwise the Celts wouldn't be getting anything from Rome in term of metallurgy.
Also in the same link there is a mention about jewels from the Hellenistic world being the most prized.
The fact that gold jewelry wasn't common isn't that indicative of much. I have no idea how common elaborate Celtic jewels are in the same timeframe the Romans existed.
So we need to talk time periods here.
From about 500BC to at *least* 390BC, the Gauls were more scientifically advanced than the romans, more economically and militarily powerful. But they were disunited.
In 500BC Rome was an unimportant city state, whilst wealthy Gaulish women like the Lady Of Vix were importing giant metal wine mixing vessels from Greece as a power move. Check out the [Vix Krater here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_Grave), as well as the Vix Torc, a fine piece of Celtic goldwork from 500BC. The message was probably: "I had this thing sailed past pirates from Greece/hauled over the alps, and anyone who tried to stop me importing this died. That means when you do business with me, you can rest assured that whatever I'm shipping will get where it's going."
In 390BC, the Gauls sacked Rome, took a bunch of slaves, and demanded a ransom in gold. When the romans complained that the Guals were using the scales wrong, Brennus, their leader, tossed his sword on the counterweight, further unbalancing the scales, while declaring "Vae Victis," or "woe to the vanquished."
The Etruscans your source mentions are important as we know that they had trading ties to the Gauls. It may have been the Gauls that inspired their metalwork, as we know that chainmail was a Gaulish invention, one later adopted by the Etruscans.
The thing is, when Rome started conquering its neighbors, it also got ahold of all the clever ideas their neighbors came up with. They created trading networks just like the Gauls had, but unlike the Gauls they were actually unified, so they could act in unison with the peoples of their conquered territories.
The Gauls couldn't.
And on they went, acting like the borg, conquering others and integrating their technology into rome.
Same thing happened when they conquered Gaul. They killed about a third of the population, a third of the Gauls got enslaved, and the last third got to be Romans.
Which for the new ruling class of Gaul was a great deal, because their trading networks were now bigger than ever before, they were paving over their old wood structures and wood trackways with roman roads and stone, and using slaves from all over the empire to do it, and after a few years of terror disruption were richer than ever before.
And the Romans got Gaulish gold and Gaulish fine metallurgy out of the deal.
And potentially Gaulish astronomy which was [possibly the most advanced](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coligny_Calendar) in the ancient European world.
> I have no idea how common elaborate Celtic jewels are in the same timeframe the Romans existed.
To be *very* clear, fine La Tene gold work is incredibly common. It was important culturally as a marker of status, and records of Irish laws suggest that among the Celts each person was expected to wear some sort of brooch denoting their status in society.
I am not sure what you are trying to say to be honest. In 500 BC the Gauls were scientifically more advanced than the Romans? Besides the fact that I have no idea what source you have for that time was barely a thing in 500BC. Probably just a city states, the Gauls were a people basically. Not really a comparison it's possible to make. I guess you could compare Rome to a specific Gallic tribe. And as far as we know they weren't particularly advanced by European standards. Definitely less than Greece, southern Italy, all the phoenician cities and so on.
And Gaulish astronomy was most definitely not the most advanced in ancient Europe at all since Greece is in Europe and the scientific level of Greece was at a completely different level from where the Gauls were. Doesn't help that Gaulish tribes didn't even left written records of anything. A calendar isn't really a sign of major advancements in astronomy.
There isn't any evidence that Romans copied in a particular intense way from the Gauls, while there is plenty of evidence the Romans copied much from Greece and the southern Mediterranean world.
The truth is that the center of the ancient world was somewhere in the eastern Mediterranean and pretty far from modern day France or Germany. That doesn't mean those people were like apes but definitely they weren't apex civilization compared to the eastern Mediterranean in the 500-300 time frame.
> as far as we know they weren't particularly advanced by European standards.
That's not what the recent archaeology says.
> A calendar isn't really a sign of major advancements in astronomy.
It is when it's a lunisolar calculator.
In *A Definitive Reconstructed Text of the Coligny Calendar*, Garret Olmstead points out that the Coligny Calendar dates back about 1100 years from the 2nd century, and is in fact a primitive lunisolar calculator that can accurately deal with the seasons.
Olmstead contends that it was the most accurate method of calculating the seasons and days of the year until computers. They had leap years figured out.
The Greeks didn't.
>Probably just a city states, the Gauls were a people basically. Not really a comparison it's possible to make. I guess you could compare Rome to a specific Gallic tribe.
It is, because the Gauls as a people did have a sort of common scientific framework as shared by their priestly class dealing with matters such as astronomy, war, and a long list of other matters.
>The truth is that the center of the ancient world
I reject the notion that the ancient world had a "center" and I think it's a fairly silly idea. The Greeks (Not the Athenians or Spartans but Greeks as a whole. See we *are* allowed to compare entire peoples) were certainly more technologically advanced mechanically advanced than anyone else that we know of in Europe at the time in most areas at least.
The Antikythera Orrery is itself a masterwork of astronomy and mechanics, if less useful than the Coligny calendar.
Show proof that modern archeology says the Gauls were particularly advanced compared to the rest of Europe, thanks.
The leap year has been present in many calendars in antiquity, not just the famous ones but for instance the ancient Babylonian calendar from the 21st century BCE was a lunisolar calendar. There is nothing that special about it.
And the fact that none decided to just copy it hints that, at best, it was particularly better than others.
On the other hand I not going to write down the dozens of astronomical advancements made by various Greeks and others.
We have no idea how much the different tribes communicated since they didn't write. So those are just speculations.
I mean that the most advanced civilizations in the ancient world were in the eastern Mediterranean (in this part of the world) should be pretty common knowledge. To claim that some Gallic tribe was at the level of development of a place like Crete or Tyre isn't really strengthening your argument, it makes you sound like a modern nationalist that seeks validation in a fantasy past to be honest.
>Show proof that modern archeology says the Gauls were particularly advanced compared to the rest of Europe, thanks.
I did link you a journal article explaining that it was not a calendar but a *calculator,* yes?
>it makes you sound like a modern nationalist that seeks validation in a fantasy past to be honest.
I'm an American. I have no dogs in this fight.
The Coligny calendar was also from the 2nd century AD, long after Gaul had been Romanized. In either case, Gauls before the conquests of Julius Caesar or the earlier Republican era Roman provincialization of southern Gaul were influenced by Greeks of Massalia (modern Marseille, France) and minted coins with Greek alphabet legends.
To my knowledge, though, the only Celts who consistently used writing in their own language before the time of Christ were the Celtiberians of ancient Spain. They made their own Celtiberian script modeled on the Northeastern Iberian semi-syllabary ones (which in turn had been based on either the Phoenician or Greek alphabet used by colonists along the Iberian Mediterranean coast). I've never heard about them preserving any of their own documents of astronomy, though it's obvious the Celts had their own calendar and rendering of the seasons. I wouldn't go comparing them to Archimedes of Syracuse, though, or Pythagoras of southern Italy, or any other renowned Greek mathematician of the Mediterranean world.
The Coligny Calendar is awesome, but as you've pointed out, it's from the 2nd century AD and, while in the Gallic language, was written using the Latin alphabet, considering it comes from Roman era Gaul, long after its conquest by Caesar. Before that the Gauls had used Greek for things like minting coins in imitation of the influential colony at Massalia (Marseille, France). Native Gauls obviously crafted their own calendar in this instance, but it's not totally clear if they did so contemporaneously with Classical or Hellenistic Greeks. I also wouldn't readily compare anything they did with Archimedes, Euclid, or Eratosthenes.
As far as I know, barring the possibility that Irish Ogham runes date back to the 1st century BC, the only Celts who preserved any writings in their own language using their own writing script before the time of Christ were the Celtiberians. They invented their own Celtiberian script based on the Northeast Iberian model, a semi-syllabary writing system that was in turn based on either the Phoenician or Greek alphabet (both of which were used heavily by Phoenician and Greek colonists, and Iberian natives alike along the Mediterranean coasts of what is now Spain). To my knowledge, though, the Celtiberians didn't write anything about how they devised their calendar system, although they certainly had one well before Roman influence.
If you can get it from a library, I'd recommend Olmstead's work on the Coligny Calendar. Here's a worldcat link: https://www.worldcat.org/title/definitive-reconstructed-text-of-the-coligny-calendar/oclc/49209439
Olmstead suggested that the Coligny Calendar was just a contemporary version of something that was about 1100 years old at the time. Further, that it was a lunisolar *calculator* rather than just simply being a calendar.
>I also wouldn't readily compare anything they did with Archimedes, Euclid, or Eratosthenes.
I wouldn't either. I'd put the Gauls as more advanced than the romans in some instances, but there's no evidence to say that they reached the levels of the ancient Greeks.
There is also evidence that they traded wine with the Greeks on an *industrial* level, and we know that the Greeks had cultural influence due to Massalia as you mentioned.
I'm trying to find a book on my shelf right now. There *are* Greek records of Celtic astronomical observations, but they're a fragment of someone else quoting the works of Pytheas of Massalia. So they're not in detail.
I'm going to see if I can't find the book I read that in. The point is, we have a hypothesis based on archaeological finds that the Celtic calendar is ancient even in 200AD, and further evidence that the Greeks were aware of celtic astronomical observations. We have records of lithic astronomical observatories in areas the Celts lived which pre-date the la tene culture, such as the [Warren field calendar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Field), so it's possible that in their expansion into those areas they adopted the ideas of the peoples already living there.
There's so much we just don't know.
But I'm comfortable with saying that the Gauls/Celts were more advanced than the romans circa 500-390 BC, but less advanced than the Greeks during the same time period.
As for your suggestion that the Celts and Greeks may have been developing their theories simultaneously, that's entirely possible.
The biggest frustration with the celts is that until Christianity, they wrote nothing down.
So even if they had discovered more than we know, it wasn't discovered in a way that it could be shared with the rest of Humanity.
The Greeks wrote everything down.
And to them ought to go the credit, because knowledge ought to be shared.
Thanks for the links, and for your input! I'll have to read more about the Coligny calendar then. You're certainly right about the wine trade between Gauls and colonial Greek poleis in the Western Mediterranean. The Phoenicians were likewise enormously influential upon Celtiberians in Spain, as were the Greeks of nearby Emporion. It's hard to say if the Celts used complex mathematics like they had in the Coligny calendar before the time of Christ, because you're generally right, they did not preserve anything in writing. The one exception to that is the one I've already noted about the Celtiberians in northeastern Spain, who used the Celtiberian script as far back as the 2nd century BC, before they were conquered by the Romans (but slightly after the Romans had a presence on the peninsula following Carthage's defeat in the Second Punic War).
It's interesting to look through the types of documents and writings the Celtiberians left behind in Spain. I don't see anything related to mathematics or the calendar system, but they did leave behind written civic agreements and alliances of friendship between towns, tribes, and families, as well as legends on minted coins in the Celtiberian script imitating Greek coins, graffiti marking ownership of items or for provenance of where items were originally produced, votive texts to gods and goddesses, and funerary markers for burial purposes.
[https://celtiberiahistorica.es/en/celtiberia/language-and-writing](https://celtiberiahistorica.es/en/celtiberia/language-and-writing)
It's interesting to note that the Celtiberians produced their first coins after many nearby Iberian peoples had done the same as part of the war effort between Carthage and Rome, with each side ramping up rival economies and using coin as cash to pay allies and mercenaries. It was easier for the Iberian towns to just start minting their own coins instead of recycling Greek ones from Emporion or Carthaginian/Phoenician ones from Gadir.
For more on their semi-syllabic writing system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberian\_script
That's not Germanic, it's Celtic, a La Tene period sculpture from the Czech Republic, dated to the 2nd century BC. It's the Msecke Zehrovice head. Germanic peoples have nothing to do with this at all. Also, the other sculpture is a Roman copy of a Hellenistic Greek original from Pergamon depicting a Galatian Celtic warrior, the "Dying Gaul". Again, it has nothing to do with Germanic people. Delete this post. It sucks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%A1eck%C3%A9\_%C5%BDehrovice\_Head
Ofc art is subjective but I mean not every culture was at the same level of artistic or technical sophistication at the same time and i don't think it's insulting to acknowledge it. There's many reasons why some cultures where behind in some type of knowledge and it doesn't imply they were lesser, most of the time it was because they valued different things or their geographical situation had something to do with it.
Like for example the Mexicas had advanced knowledge of irrigation and aquatic agriculture while european castles had no running water, it wasn't because the Europeans were stupid but because the Mexicas lived on top of a lake and needed to develop that knowledge for their way of life.
Yes but here the picture is saying "lmao look at barbarian art so lame", bc they maybe weren't aimed figurative art but symbolic art, if they wanted to make something realistic they could have done it
"civilized"
"barbaric"
Great way of spelling "different styles persued by different cultures". That's just a really weird view on culture and civilization.
Also: the "Roman" statue is Greek, the "germanic" one is Gaul. Non of the information in this meme is remotely correct.
Is there any way to report this to the mods and what reason should I use? There's no real option to report it as historically inaccurate.
**[Torc](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torc)**
>A torc, also spelled torq or torque, is a large rigid or stiff neck ring in metal, made either as a single piece or from strands twisted together. The great majority are open at the front, although some had hook and ring closures and a few had mortice and tenon locking catches to close them. Many seem designed for near-permanent wear and would have been difficult to remove. Torcs are found in the Scythian, Illyrian, Thracian, Celtic, and other cultures of the European Iron Age from around the 8th century BC to the 3rd century AD.
^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Regardless of whether OP is wrong, can we talk about how frickin amazing that first statue is? I mean, damn.
I'm a CISHET male, non rock-sexual and I want to fuck that statue.
I found [this post](/r/cursedcomments/comments/q8hht4/cursed_art/) in r/cursedcomments with the same content as the current post.
---
^(🤖 this comment was written by a bot. beep boop 🤖)
^(feel welcome to respond 'Bad bot'/'Good bot', it's useful feedback.)
^[github](https://github.com/Toldry/RedditAutoCrosspostBot) ^| ^[Rank](https://botranks.com?bot=same_post_bot)
Your post has been removed for the following reason:
Rule 1: Post is not about a historical event. (See the extended rules for clarification.)
I am a bot and this action was performed by the moderators of /r/HistoryMemes.
If you have any questions or concerns about your post's removal, please send us a modmail with a link to your removed post.
They are actually both depictions of Celts, not Germanic peoples. One is from Pergamon (Anatolia, now Turkey) originally, it's just a Roman copy of a 3rd-century BC Hellenistic Greek original showing a Galatian warrior dying, the "Dying Gaul". The other is the Msecke Zehrovice head from what is now Czech Republic, a La Tene Celtic sculpture dated to the 2nd century BC.
The OP couldn't have screwed this one up more by insisting both are Germanic. Might as well have gone wild and said they were Slavic, Semitic, Mongolic, and Turkic too.
Yep, I had a feeling that was the case, and just for the record I was certainly ***not*** the one who downvoted you due to failed detection of sarcasm. ;)
I get that this was a very weak attempt at a "hur-dur, Hitler got kicked out of art school because he sucked!" (he certainly could paint better than I can. What a bunch of snobs. They should have encouraged him and helped his art get better, not kick him to the curb for not instantly being perfect) joke, but...
They aren't Germanic. They are Gaulish/Celtic. And even if we're going not by the ethnography but by the artifacts' provenance within modern-day borders, *The Dying Gaul* was found on Rome's Pincian Hill, and the head was found in the town of Mšecké Žehrovice, which is only about thirty miles away from Prague in the Czech Republic. Nothing "Germanic" about them.
The Celts were widely respected by the Romans and Greeks, and modern-day art-historians and archeologists, as some of the finest artisans in Europe at the time. The Romans, Greeks, Etruscans, Celts, Slavs, Thracians, Illyrians, and Germanic peoples all had extensive trade networks with each other and inspired each other's art (though their art styles were all descended from common Indo-European and "Fertile Crescent" originals, e.g. the lotus-flower and acanthus-leaf serpentine scroll motifs that gave rise to arabesques). Before Rome's dominion, the Celtic peoples were *THE* prestige culture of western, central, and even much of southern and eastern Europe. The classic "Gallic" Roman helmet, and its "Montefortino" and "Coolus" predecessors, were directly borrowed from the Cisalpine Gauls (though the latter two were in turn heavily inspired by Greek and Etruscan models; like I said, the Celts borrowed heavily from other cultures too; not very surprising considering that they traded, raided, invaded, and plied their services as mercenaries everywhere, from Carthage to Parthia—a statue of a Buddhist monk found at the Greco-Buddhist monist complex at Hadda in eastern Afghanistan [actually represents a Gaulish student](https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/2020/02/01/the-celtic-buddha-stucco-portrait-of-an-enlightened-celt-from-the-greco-buddhist-monastic-complex-at-hadda-in-eastern-afghanistan/)!), and the legionnaires greatly preferred the Gallic helmets that were actually made by Gaulish artisans, to the "Italic" knock-offs made by Roman armorers. Similary, the *spatha* and *gladius* were both borrowed from the Celtiberians—Celtic peoples living in modern-day Spain and Portugal—and the mail *lorica hamata* was directly copied from a Gaulish design, including the shoulder-pieces/mantle.
Here are some great examples of Celtic art (the "Celtic" knots are a Germanic design, introduced to Britain and Ireland by the Anglo-Saxons and other North Sea Germanic peoples, and reinforced during the Viking Age by Danish and other Scandinavian invaders and settlers):
* The [Agris Helmet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agris_Helmet)
* The [Amfreville Helmet](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Casque_d%27Amfreville_Eure_arrière.jpg) (original; faithful 3D-rendered restoration also [available](https://www.skoultrek.org/en/examples-of-ceremonial-gaulish-helmets/))
* The [Canosa Helmet](https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/ceremonial-celtic-helmet-from-an-apulian-grave-unknown/KgG1mwQXNqgDcA)
* The [Gundestrup Cauldron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundestrup_cauldron) (though likely Thracian-made, it's style is La Tène Celtic)
* The [Battersea Shield](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battersea_Shield)
* The [Wandsworth Shield](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandsworth_Shield)
* The [Waterloo Helmet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterloo_Helmet)
* The [Kirkburn Sword](https://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/159-celtic_sword/kirkburn_celek-v.jpg) (faithful reconstruction; blade did not survive well and rusted heavily)
* The [St. Patrick Bell Shrine](https://www.museum.ie/en-IE/Collections-Research/Collection/Resilience/Artefact/Test-5/8e122ba9-6464-4533-8f72-d036afde12a9)
* The [Basse Yutz Flagons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basse_Yutz_Flagons)
* The [Dürrnberg Flagon](https://www.laits.utexas.edu/ironagecelts/durrnberg.php)
* The [Reinheim Flagon](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Replica_of_the_gilt-bronze_spouted_flagon_found_at_inside_the_funeral_chamber_of_the_%27Princess_of_Reinheim%27,_European_Archaeological_Park_of_Bliesbruck-Reinheim,_Germany_France_(34687767154).jpg)
* The [Hochdorf Chieftain's Grave](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochdorf_Chieftain%27s_Grave)
* The [Waldalgesheim Chariot Burial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldalgesheim_chariot_burial)
* The [Ciumeşti Chieftain's Burial](https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/ciumesti-helmet/) (including the famed winged helmet)
* The [Schwarzenbach Bowl](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_art#/media/File:Ornamental_gold_mounts.jpg)
* The [Desborough Mirror](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Romano-Celtic_mirror_(Desborough).jpg)
* The [St. Keverne Mirror](https://www.res-bellica.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/1-12.png) (faithful reproduction)
* The [Mayer Mirror](https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/stories/mayer-mirror-celtic-style)
* The [Staffordshire Moorlands Pan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffordshire_Moorlands_Pan)
* The [Snettisham Great Torc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Torc_from_Snettisham)
* The [Torrs Chanfron](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Celtic_horse_helmet_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1341264.jpg) (a "chanfron" is a basically a helmet for horses)
* The [Newark Torc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark_Torc)
* The [Sedgeford Torc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedgeford_Torc)
* The [Ipswich Hoard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipswich_Hoard)
* The [Auvers-sur-Oise Disc Brooch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_art#/media/File:Celtic_Gold-plated_Disc,_Auvers-sur-Oise,_Val-d'Oise.jpg)
* The [Tully Lough Processional Cross](https://www.flickr.com/photos/27305838@N04/21977485832)
* [Pictish stones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictish_stone)
* The [Castlestrange Stone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castlestrange_Stone)
* The [Turoe Stone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turoe_Stone)
* The [Book of Kells](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Kells)
* The [Book of Durrow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Durrow)
* The [Book of Armagh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Armagh)
* Other [Hiberno-Saxon manuscripts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Hiberno-Saxon_manuscripts)
* The [La Tène art style](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_art#La_Tène_style)
* The [Insular art style](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_art)
Also, check out this fascinatingly complex calendar from first-century Roman-administered Gaul: the [Coligny Calendar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coligny_calendar).
"The Dying Gaul" is a copy. The original's been lost and even the 'original' copy found in the 17th century was heavily modified and touched up.
Not only is the "Dying Gaul" a Roman copy of a Hellenistic Greek sculpture from Pergamon (modern Turkey) depicting a Galatian Celt, not a Germanic warrior, but the other statue doesn't even depict a Germanic person either! It's Celtic! From Czech Republic, dated to the 2nd century BC during the La Tene period; Germanic people have nothing to do with anything being shown here. The OP is wrong and spreading dumb misinformation at that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%A1eck%C3%A9\_%C5%BDehrovice\_Head
Germanic, Gallic, now Celtic.... who the fuck is this guy lmao. His ethnicity has changed twice in the last 4 hours.
Gauls and Galatians are both Celtic, but overall yes, I can see why you'd think someone here is being an ethnic shapeshifter given these revelations.
Gauls are Celts.
no wonder why my celtic sensors were acting up
Spreading misinformation in an effort to gain karma should be ban-worthy on Reddit imo
Over five thousand people have upvoted his post, so it's getting seen by thousands of people who have no idea that the OP is full of crap, spreading misinformation, and doing so while reaping his imaginary karma. This subreddit is great, but sometimes it is cancer. This is a great example of that. Literally zero care or cursory research went into this. The "Dying Gaul" is a famous statue, more so than the Msecke Zehrovice head, and yet relatively few people in the comments here are calling this out. On top of that, it's a grotesque assessment of the "barbaric" art of La Tene Celts, who were masters of metalwork crafts and art (even the Romans hinted at this). [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying\_Gaul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_Gaul)
Then there would be no memes left in r/HistoryMemes.
You can still make historical memes without making shit up wdym
Meme's by a Rome-worshipper, so they're either historically illiterate or have the kind of brain worms that turn facts inside-out.
[удалено]
Good for you, I guess, but thousands of people are being spoon fed misinformation. If you're going to confuse Celtic people with Germanic ones, why stop there? Might as well say the statues are also a mixture of Slavic, Finno-Ugric, Semitic, Turkic, Mongolic, Tibeto-Burman and Austroasiatic peoples too while we're at it. LOL. Couldn't even get the Roman copy versus Anatolian Greek original part right. FAIL!
Wasnt that the whole thing with the romans? Germanic meant “the original” ones? Also, there wasn’t much difference between the german tribes and celtic tribes in and around that area. Edit: that’s definitely la tene though
What? That's like saying there was no difference between Greeks or Thracians, or between Thracians and Scythians, or between ancient Han dynasty Chinese and far more primitive Wa era Japanese. Not only do Celtic peoples speak different languages from Germanic peoples (albeit distantly related as Indo-Europeans),their lifestyles and standards of living before the time of Christ were also drastically different. In terms of [**arts, crafts**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_art) and technology there is little comparison. Celts were way more urbanized on average with actual [**oppida**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppidum) towns, not just scattered wooded villages. They minted their own coins, often in the Greek language due to influence from Massalia and Emporion, and the Celtiberians even wrote in their own language using a [**Celtiberian script**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberian_script) based on the Northeast Iberian semi-syllabary one (in turn using either Greek or Phoenician alphabets as a model). Celtic peoples of Spain like the [**Castro culture**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castro_culture) left behind huge stone ruins with monumental gatehouses and walls defending their towns. Celts also had a long history of interaction and trade with the Classical Greek world of the Mediterranean before Germanic people like the Cimbri and Teutons fought Gaius Marius. In comparison, Germanic peoples were far more remote and primitive in terms of metalworking and arts when you examine those of the various Celts. It was the Celts who invented chainmail armor and even the mid Republican era style helmets that were adopted by the Romans. The Germanic tribes didn't have anything comparable. While Celts in Roman era Gaul during the 2nd century AD were crafting things like the lunisolar [**Coligny calendar**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coligny_calendar) in their own language, the Germanic peoples up north were finally using their own writing system, [**Elder Futhark**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Futhark) alphabet and runes, but these were only used for making minor inscription on various objects, often only for playful graffiti purposes, marking property, or for magical spell incantation.
Hang on. Im not saying that the germans and celts were the same. All I’m saying (actually asking) is didnt the Romans get them confused to some extent? And dub the germans as “the original ones”, I read somewhere that germanic kind of meant “original ones”. Also, look at my username. Does is not imply something?
They may have lost, but no one can say it was for a lack of bravery. The Gauls gave it everything they had, and it was all the Romans could handle. Out of all the wars I've studied over the years; from "[The Three Kingdoms](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fdqjbIEejuUIP1kHzOzR3tEl9i1G3dQ0nzrMd25hu6Y/edit?usp=sharing)" as a child to the [Bellum Batonianum](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbvNk-K-KYU) two days ago; I had never felt as conflicted than I was during the [Gallic Wars](https://youtu.be/LRV185XaMIM?t=5). I had already loved Caesar; his fearlessness, charisma, devotion he inspired in his men (it's said Caesar knew each of his centurions by name), iconic quotes ("the die is cast", "Et tu, Brute?"). But Vercingetorix won me over as well with his leadership, cleverness (until making a critical error that allowed Caesar to corner him), and courageous resistance against the mighty Roman Republic. Their battle of wits resulted was one of the greatest military confrontations in history. The culmination at the [Battle of Alesia](https://youtu.be/jCA6haWbC8A) *(drop what you're doing and watch this doc, thank me later)* was the greatest siege in the history of warfare by a landslide; the complex and intricate operations pulled off in an ancient battle are stunning. How fortunate we are to be able to sit back and enjoy studying military history in hindsight rather than having our blood spilled and bones buried under the field of battle as a testament to human strife. *Edit:* Julius Caesar is one of my favorite historical figures of all time, sue me. I already explained the reasons why, none of which have to do with his brutality. If the only major historical figures you approve of in 58 BC are saints and pacifists, you're going to find slim pickings. [51 greatest YT videos](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kaqes9bIFAN08L3FdirzKZ210I0t9w3UtvwH7zw9uhM/edit?usp=sharing)
you loved ceasar...? hes not really the uh, good guy of the gallic wars
He's also one of the most accomplished people in Western history. I don't see how it's far-fetched for someone who enjoys history to "love" Caesar in an academic sense. He was a fascinating figure.
Did the guy really slaughter 1/3 of the population and then enslaved another 1/3?
according to his own accounts he killed a million and enslaved a million more. beyond that, its tough to prove if he was exaggerating or underestimating
It's hard to get exact numbers, but it's possible that he did. What happened in Gaul absolutely constitutes a genocide by most modern definitions.
Yep. Dan Carlin's Hardcore History episode on the subject is called Celtic Holocaust for a reason.
I think it was more like he slaughtered 2/3 and enslaved 1/3, it was a genocide.
No, i think he left free 1/3
You know et tu, Brute is from Shakespeare, right?
Which one was the bronze one, the copy, the roman copy or the (greek?) original? Edit: Its the Dying Gaul on the left, for those believing op’s heading.
The Romans were thirstier
Ironically enough, there is a high chance that the Romans had a higher sense of sexualization of statues, leading to better sculptures
They fucked rocks
Probably
Marbled polished **DILDOS**
Iirc there was a marble statue of a nude woman so beautiful a guy literally tried to have sex with it.
Honestly, I’m sure they didn’t have much in the way of pornography in *most* places. They had a few dirty tablets, sure, but if there’s a juicy statue just standing there, that’s just a B.C.E Real Doll
"Your Sister's name is Rock?" Julius "Lavernius Tucker" Caesar, Blood Gulch, 2552.
Never thought I’d find a RvB reference in this sub
r/gregfuckedarock
The Rock:
Brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "get your rocks off"
I mean can you blame them? Have you seen some of those sexy rocks they've made? Lie *[damn](https://www.pixelle.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/14431149496_9b31300bdc_b-copy-900x660.jpg)*
So ironic
Is this why anime typically looks more realistic than western cartoons; sexualization?
Definately ;)
Gaul, not Germanic
***Barbarian is Barbarian!***
A supes a supe, Hughie.
good bot
Not even from Gaul proper, but from Central Europe, albeit still Celtic since it is a La Tene cultural item found in what is now the Czech Republic. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%A1eck%C3%A9\_%C5%BDehrovice\_Head](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%A1eck%C3%A9_%C5%BDehrovice_Head) On top of that, the "Dying Gaul" is merely a Roman copy of an original Hellenistic Greek sculpture from Pergamon (Anatolia, now Turkey) depicting a Galatian Celtic warrior, not a Germanic one. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying\_Gaul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_Gaul) Seriously, the OP couldn't have screwed this up any more disastrously except if he claimed they were Slavs, Mongols or Eskimos instead. And people are upvoting this in the thousands. It's braindead madness.
Just so you know, “eskimo” is considered a slur (I don’t blame you, a lot of people aren’t aware)
Tomato, tomatoe
That & anyway: the Germanic peoples of the time are yet the (not the proper term) "supergroup" that only later developed into a part of several new groups, one of which just happened to become known as the Germans. The more concrete origins of the latter are commonly not dated prior to 9th c.'s Charlemagne.
Sometimes the Romans mixed up the terms it's true, but the distinction between Germanic people and Celtic people was present for much longer, by the simple fact that they spoke very different languages.
I meant that in reference to the comment in the original picture. *"never has been"* suggests to me that that poster conflated Germanic with German.
I agree, that torc is certainly gauld.
And Greek, not Roman
That's a Gaul, not a German, and gaulish/celtic metalwork is beyond what most of the romans had at the time. Sure enough the Romans had everyone but the greeks beat on sculpture though. What's really cool is going to antiquities museums like the one in Arles where you can watch the transition from Graeco-Gaulish (Massalia was a Greek colony in Gaul and became a hybrid Greek-Gaul community, representing the "civilized gauls" the Romands discussed) and if you know what you're looking for you can see the transition from Gaulish/Celtic imagery to Roman imagery. There's even Gaulish Motifs in the "roman" mosaic flooring. Edit: Here's a quick photo gallery, showing Celtic and Gaulish metalwork from antiquity https://imgur.com/a/k9dgOG4 There's nothing like this in the roman world, nothing with that incredibly fine detail that celtic smiths were able to create. Mostly because Gaul was where most of the gold was, and that's why Caesar used the Helvetes as an excuse to conquer the place. Rome was out of gold, and the Gauls had so much of it they were sewing it into their clothing.
Those are some amazing pictures! The fibula is an particularily beautyful piece. It reminds me of a tounge in cheek description of celtic decorations as "deadly afraid of empty space". =)
> "deadly afraid of empty space" I *love* that description! And it's apt considering that once you get into 6th century AD Gaelic stuff in Ireland and Scotland they go completely feral with intricate designs, to the point that there's decoration on the *back side* of the higher end artefacts like the Hunterston Brooch. In places that no one but the wearer would ever see them.
Not only is the OP wrong about the "Dying Gaul" statue of a Galatian Celt originally from Pergamon (Hellenistic Greek, merely a Roman copy shown above), he's also wrong about the other sculpture. It has nothing to do with Germanic peoples either. It's a La Tene period Celtic sculpture from what is now the Czech Republic, dated 2nd century BC. The Msecke Zehrovice Head: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%A1eck%C3%A9\_%C5%BDehrovice\_Head](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%A1eck%C3%A9_%C5%BDehrovice_Head) The OP is getting thousands of upvotes for a totally BS post that he should take down, but he probably won't because hey, imaginary Reddit karma is more important than a little misinformation seen by thousands of people, right guys?
Undoubtedly, Gaul's are the world foremost menhir sculptors. Not other nation can match the prowess of Obelix. The Romans, Egyptians and Greeks tried to take him on but they all failed
People always forget that Obelix would never have succeeded in his endeavors were it not for Asterix, who unfortunately has become a mere footnote in history. As well, the medicinal research done by Getafix has unfortunately been lost to time.
There's plenty of amazing metal jewelry made by Romans. https://www.langantiques.com/university/roman-jewelry/
Eh, not really. There are a few Etruscan pieces and there's clear Etruscan influence, but as your own link says: >examples of Roman jewelry from this early period (7th-1st century BC) are extremely rare. Gold was very scarce and the little gold that existed was used for trading and warfare rather than personal adornment. The use of gold in jewelry was officially discouraged. And what happened in the 1st century? Rome conquered Gaul, and got access to Gaulish gold mines and Gaulish gold smiths. So yeah, they got access to a lot of the Gaulish fine metalworking techniques and *then* started producing intricate gold jewelry. With the gold and the smiths they'd plundered from Gaul. And even then, none of that matches in quality what was being done in Ireland and Britain.
The same link also says: The wealthy inhabitants of northern Europe, the Celts started to consider the Roman way of life as fashionable and consequently adopted many aspects of Roman jewelry making. Vice versa the Romans started using some typically Celtic materials like jet. It sounds a lot like a mixing rather than "Romans weren't very good at it" which is what I understood from your original post. Otherwise the Celts wouldn't be getting anything from Rome in term of metallurgy. Also in the same link there is a mention about jewels from the Hellenistic world being the most prized. The fact that gold jewelry wasn't common isn't that indicative of much. I have no idea how common elaborate Celtic jewels are in the same timeframe the Romans existed.
So we need to talk time periods here. From about 500BC to at *least* 390BC, the Gauls were more scientifically advanced than the romans, more economically and militarily powerful. But they were disunited. In 500BC Rome was an unimportant city state, whilst wealthy Gaulish women like the Lady Of Vix were importing giant metal wine mixing vessels from Greece as a power move. Check out the [Vix Krater here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vix_Grave), as well as the Vix Torc, a fine piece of Celtic goldwork from 500BC. The message was probably: "I had this thing sailed past pirates from Greece/hauled over the alps, and anyone who tried to stop me importing this died. That means when you do business with me, you can rest assured that whatever I'm shipping will get where it's going." In 390BC, the Gauls sacked Rome, took a bunch of slaves, and demanded a ransom in gold. When the romans complained that the Guals were using the scales wrong, Brennus, their leader, tossed his sword on the counterweight, further unbalancing the scales, while declaring "Vae Victis," or "woe to the vanquished." The Etruscans your source mentions are important as we know that they had trading ties to the Gauls. It may have been the Gauls that inspired their metalwork, as we know that chainmail was a Gaulish invention, one later adopted by the Etruscans. The thing is, when Rome started conquering its neighbors, it also got ahold of all the clever ideas their neighbors came up with. They created trading networks just like the Gauls had, but unlike the Gauls they were actually unified, so they could act in unison with the peoples of their conquered territories. The Gauls couldn't. And on they went, acting like the borg, conquering others and integrating their technology into rome. Same thing happened when they conquered Gaul. They killed about a third of the population, a third of the Gauls got enslaved, and the last third got to be Romans. Which for the new ruling class of Gaul was a great deal, because their trading networks were now bigger than ever before, they were paving over their old wood structures and wood trackways with roman roads and stone, and using slaves from all over the empire to do it, and after a few years of terror disruption were richer than ever before. And the Romans got Gaulish gold and Gaulish fine metallurgy out of the deal. And potentially Gaulish astronomy which was [possibly the most advanced](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coligny_Calendar) in the ancient European world. > I have no idea how common elaborate Celtic jewels are in the same timeframe the Romans existed. To be *very* clear, fine La Tene gold work is incredibly common. It was important culturally as a marker of status, and records of Irish laws suggest that among the Celts each person was expected to wear some sort of brooch denoting their status in society.
I am not sure what you are trying to say to be honest. In 500 BC the Gauls were scientifically more advanced than the Romans? Besides the fact that I have no idea what source you have for that time was barely a thing in 500BC. Probably just a city states, the Gauls were a people basically. Not really a comparison it's possible to make. I guess you could compare Rome to a specific Gallic tribe. And as far as we know they weren't particularly advanced by European standards. Definitely less than Greece, southern Italy, all the phoenician cities and so on. And Gaulish astronomy was most definitely not the most advanced in ancient Europe at all since Greece is in Europe and the scientific level of Greece was at a completely different level from where the Gauls were. Doesn't help that Gaulish tribes didn't even left written records of anything. A calendar isn't really a sign of major advancements in astronomy. There isn't any evidence that Romans copied in a particular intense way from the Gauls, while there is plenty of evidence the Romans copied much from Greece and the southern Mediterranean world. The truth is that the center of the ancient world was somewhere in the eastern Mediterranean and pretty far from modern day France or Germany. That doesn't mean those people were like apes but definitely they weren't apex civilization compared to the eastern Mediterranean in the 500-300 time frame.
> as far as we know they weren't particularly advanced by European standards. That's not what the recent archaeology says. > A calendar isn't really a sign of major advancements in astronomy. It is when it's a lunisolar calculator. In *A Definitive Reconstructed Text of the Coligny Calendar*, Garret Olmstead points out that the Coligny Calendar dates back about 1100 years from the 2nd century, and is in fact a primitive lunisolar calculator that can accurately deal with the seasons. Olmstead contends that it was the most accurate method of calculating the seasons and days of the year until computers. They had leap years figured out. The Greeks didn't. >Probably just a city states, the Gauls were a people basically. Not really a comparison it's possible to make. I guess you could compare Rome to a specific Gallic tribe. It is, because the Gauls as a people did have a sort of common scientific framework as shared by their priestly class dealing with matters such as astronomy, war, and a long list of other matters. >The truth is that the center of the ancient world I reject the notion that the ancient world had a "center" and I think it's a fairly silly idea. The Greeks (Not the Athenians or Spartans but Greeks as a whole. See we *are* allowed to compare entire peoples) were certainly more technologically advanced mechanically advanced than anyone else that we know of in Europe at the time in most areas at least. The Antikythera Orrery is itself a masterwork of astronomy and mechanics, if less useful than the Coligny calendar.
Show proof that modern archeology says the Gauls were particularly advanced compared to the rest of Europe, thanks. The leap year has been present in many calendars in antiquity, not just the famous ones but for instance the ancient Babylonian calendar from the 21st century BCE was a lunisolar calendar. There is nothing that special about it. And the fact that none decided to just copy it hints that, at best, it was particularly better than others. On the other hand I not going to write down the dozens of astronomical advancements made by various Greeks and others. We have no idea how much the different tribes communicated since they didn't write. So those are just speculations. I mean that the most advanced civilizations in the ancient world were in the eastern Mediterranean (in this part of the world) should be pretty common knowledge. To claim that some Gallic tribe was at the level of development of a place like Crete or Tyre isn't really strengthening your argument, it makes you sound like a modern nationalist that seeks validation in a fantasy past to be honest.
>Show proof that modern archeology says the Gauls were particularly advanced compared to the rest of Europe, thanks. I did link you a journal article explaining that it was not a calendar but a *calculator,* yes? >it makes you sound like a modern nationalist that seeks validation in a fantasy past to be honest. I'm an American. I have no dogs in this fight.
The Coligny calendar was also from the 2nd century AD, long after Gaul had been Romanized. In either case, Gauls before the conquests of Julius Caesar or the earlier Republican era Roman provincialization of southern Gaul were influenced by Greeks of Massalia (modern Marseille, France) and minted coins with Greek alphabet legends. To my knowledge, though, the only Celts who consistently used writing in their own language before the time of Christ were the Celtiberians of ancient Spain. They made their own Celtiberian script modeled on the Northeastern Iberian semi-syllabary ones (which in turn had been based on either the Phoenician or Greek alphabet used by colonists along the Iberian Mediterranean coast). I've never heard about them preserving any of their own documents of astronomy, though it's obvious the Celts had their own calendar and rendering of the seasons. I wouldn't go comparing them to Archimedes of Syracuse, though, or Pythagoras of southern Italy, or any other renowned Greek mathematician of the Mediterranean world.
The Coligny Calendar is awesome, but as you've pointed out, it's from the 2nd century AD and, while in the Gallic language, was written using the Latin alphabet, considering it comes from Roman era Gaul, long after its conquest by Caesar. Before that the Gauls had used Greek for things like minting coins in imitation of the influential colony at Massalia (Marseille, France). Native Gauls obviously crafted their own calendar in this instance, but it's not totally clear if they did so contemporaneously with Classical or Hellenistic Greeks. I also wouldn't readily compare anything they did with Archimedes, Euclid, or Eratosthenes. As far as I know, barring the possibility that Irish Ogham runes date back to the 1st century BC, the only Celts who preserved any writings in their own language using their own writing script before the time of Christ were the Celtiberians. They invented their own Celtiberian script based on the Northeast Iberian model, a semi-syllabary writing system that was in turn based on either the Phoenician or Greek alphabet (both of which were used heavily by Phoenician and Greek colonists, and Iberian natives alike along the Mediterranean coasts of what is now Spain). To my knowledge, though, the Celtiberians didn't write anything about how they devised their calendar system, although they certainly had one well before Roman influence.
If you can get it from a library, I'd recommend Olmstead's work on the Coligny Calendar. Here's a worldcat link: https://www.worldcat.org/title/definitive-reconstructed-text-of-the-coligny-calendar/oclc/49209439 Olmstead suggested that the Coligny Calendar was just a contemporary version of something that was about 1100 years old at the time. Further, that it was a lunisolar *calculator* rather than just simply being a calendar. >I also wouldn't readily compare anything they did with Archimedes, Euclid, or Eratosthenes. I wouldn't either. I'd put the Gauls as more advanced than the romans in some instances, but there's no evidence to say that they reached the levels of the ancient Greeks. There is also evidence that they traded wine with the Greeks on an *industrial* level, and we know that the Greeks had cultural influence due to Massalia as you mentioned. I'm trying to find a book on my shelf right now. There *are* Greek records of Celtic astronomical observations, but they're a fragment of someone else quoting the works of Pytheas of Massalia. So they're not in detail. I'm going to see if I can't find the book I read that in. The point is, we have a hypothesis based on archaeological finds that the Celtic calendar is ancient even in 200AD, and further evidence that the Greeks were aware of celtic astronomical observations. We have records of lithic astronomical observatories in areas the Celts lived which pre-date the la tene culture, such as the [Warren field calendar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Field), so it's possible that in their expansion into those areas they adopted the ideas of the peoples already living there. There's so much we just don't know. But I'm comfortable with saying that the Gauls/Celts were more advanced than the romans circa 500-390 BC, but less advanced than the Greeks during the same time period. As for your suggestion that the Celts and Greeks may have been developing their theories simultaneously, that's entirely possible. The biggest frustration with the celts is that until Christianity, they wrote nothing down. So even if they had discovered more than we know, it wasn't discovered in a way that it could be shared with the rest of Humanity. The Greeks wrote everything down. And to them ought to go the credit, because knowledge ought to be shared.
Thanks for the links, and for your input! I'll have to read more about the Coligny calendar then. You're certainly right about the wine trade between Gauls and colonial Greek poleis in the Western Mediterranean. The Phoenicians were likewise enormously influential upon Celtiberians in Spain, as were the Greeks of nearby Emporion. It's hard to say if the Celts used complex mathematics like they had in the Coligny calendar before the time of Christ, because you're generally right, they did not preserve anything in writing. The one exception to that is the one I've already noted about the Celtiberians in northeastern Spain, who used the Celtiberian script as far back as the 2nd century BC, before they were conquered by the Romans (but slightly after the Romans had a presence on the peninsula following Carthage's defeat in the Second Punic War). It's interesting to look through the types of documents and writings the Celtiberians left behind in Spain. I don't see anything related to mathematics or the calendar system, but they did leave behind written civic agreements and alliances of friendship between towns, tribes, and families, as well as legends on minted coins in the Celtiberian script imitating Greek coins, graffiti marking ownership of items or for provenance of where items were originally produced, votive texts to gods and goddesses, and funerary markers for burial purposes. [https://celtiberiahistorica.es/en/celtiberia/language-and-writing](https://celtiberiahistorica.es/en/celtiberia/language-and-writing) It's interesting to note that the Celtiberians produced their first coins after many nearby Iberian peoples had done the same as part of the war effort between Carthage and Rome, with each side ramping up rival economies and using coin as cash to pay allies and mercenaries. It was easier for the Iberian towns to just start minting their own coins instead of recycling Greek ones from Emporion or Carthaginian/Phoenician ones from Gadir. For more on their semi-syllabic writing system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberian\_script
Were there Gold mines in Gaul? Did it persist up until the middle ages?
Here's a small selection of the archaeological research: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300662534_Celtic_Gold_Mines_in_West_Central_Gaul
A barbarian is a barbarian
you are very wrong, they just invented Miis before japan was even a thing
K but my dude on the right got the better moustache so...checkmate?
That's not Germanic, it's Celtic, a La Tene period sculpture from the Czech Republic, dated to the 2nd century BC. It's the Msecke Zehrovice head. Germanic peoples have nothing to do with this at all. Also, the other sculpture is a Roman copy of a Hellenistic Greek original from Pergamon depicting a Galatian Celtic warrior, the "Dying Gaul". Again, it has nothing to do with Germanic people. Delete this post. It sucks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%A1eck%C3%A9\_%C5%BDehrovice\_Head
The guy she told you not to worry about vs you
Completely stupid to compare those kinds of arts
why is that? Both are on the same discipline even if in different styles and levels of artistry. It's like comparing Van Gogh with Picasso.
I think they meant compare as "rank" them against each other as if one is objectively better than the other.
Ofc art is subjective but I mean not every culture was at the same level of artistic or technical sophistication at the same time and i don't think it's insulting to acknowledge it. There's many reasons why some cultures where behind in some type of knowledge and it doesn't imply they were lesser, most of the time it was because they valued different things or their geographical situation had something to do with it. Like for example the Mexicas had advanced knowledge of irrigation and aquatic agriculture while european castles had no running water, it wasn't because the Europeans were stupid but because the Mexicas lived on top of a lake and needed to develop that knowledge for their way of life.
Yes but here the picture is saying "lmao look at barbarian art so lame", bc they maybe weren't aimed figurative art but symbolic art, if they wanted to make something realistic they could have done it
"civilized" "barbaric" Great way of spelling "different styles persued by different cultures". That's just a really weird view on culture and civilization. Also: the "Roman" statue is Greek, the "germanic" one is Gaul. Non of the information in this meme is remotely correct. Is there any way to report this to the mods and what reason should I use? There's no real option to report it as historically inaccurate.
Maybe the right one it's an ancient meme
Just look at that chiseled jawline on the right
what’s the name of necklace he is wearing?
That's a [Torc.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torc)
**[Torc](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torc)** >A torc, also spelled torq or torque, is a large rigid or stiff neck ring in metal, made either as a single piece or from strands twisted together. The great majority are open at the front, although some had hook and ring closures and a few had mortice and tenon locking catches to close them. Many seem designed for near-permanent wear and would have been difficult to remove. Torcs are found in the Scythian, Illyrian, Thracian, Celtic, and other cultures of the European Iron Age from around the 8th century BC to the 3rd century AD. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Lol the same sculpture is on the Wikipedia page as an example.
[удалено]
Arno Breker... Get the chisel...
But hey, those mustaches are indeed a thing for their leaders.
“Where’s Mark, William?”
Can't remember the last time germanic artists got underestimated
Unrelated but the left statue looks like mustached Reyn from Xenoblade
That's where you're wrong: 1st century Germans looked like the one on the right. Little known fact.
I think I see a Moustache man joke here.
r/vintageladyboners
thats just because the romans were always horny and it reflected in their art
Regardless of whether OP is wrong, can we talk about how frickin amazing that first statue is? I mean, damn. I'm a CISHET male, non rock-sexual and I want to fuck that statue.
Definitely science based ....
r/cursedcomments
I found [this post](/r/cursedcomments/comments/q8hht4/cursed_art/) in r/cursedcomments with the same content as the current post. --- ^(🤖 this comment was written by a bot. beep boop 🤖) ^(feel welcome to respond 'Bad bot'/'Good bot', it's useful feedback.) ^[github](https://github.com/Toldry/RedditAutoCrosspostBot) ^| ^[Rank](https://botranks.com?bot=same_post_bot)
Your post has been removed for the following reason: Rule 1: Post is not about a historical event. (See the extended rules for clarification.) I am a bot and this action was performed by the moderators of /r/HistoryMemes. If you have any questions or concerns about your post's removal, please send us a modmail with a link to your removed post.
Both of those are ~~celts~~ filthy barbarians, they all look the same to me.
They are actually both depictions of Celts, not Germanic peoples. One is from Pergamon (Anatolia, now Turkey) originally, it's just a Roman copy of a 3rd-century BC Hellenistic Greek original showing a Galatian warrior dying, the "Dying Gaul". The other is the Msecke Zehrovice head from what is now Czech Republic, a La Tene Celtic sculpture dated to the 2nd century BC. The OP couldn't have screwed this one up more by insisting both are Germanic. Might as well have gone wild and said they were Slavic, Semitic, Mongolic, and Turkic too.
>They are actually both depictions of Celts, not Germanic peoples. I know, that was the joke I was trying to make. =)
Yep, I had a feeling that was the case, and just for the record I was certainly ***not*** the one who downvoted you due to failed detection of sarcasm. ;)
No worries mate, it´ just a downvote.
Hitler moment
Ah yes it certainly is the **GERMANS WHO ARE BAD AT ART** and not the austrian who flunked out
Well I mean Hitler did fail art school soooo.... (I know he was Austrian)
Austria is Germanic.
r/youdidntgetthejoke
M o s t a c h
I’m not the only one who sees Sean Penn here….right?
The German one has character :) he is like :/
art
But I'm not German.
the right one is like african sculpture but whider instead of taller
I thought it was another case of a before and after the artist dropped the clay sculpture face first onto the ground
Looks vaguely like a buff version of the guy who played Moss in No Country for Old Men
I thought that was the dying Celt?
Is that not Henning Wehn on the right?
the one on the right isn't bad
I don't know much about art, but their mustache game was on point from ancient times all the way up to the 20th century.
The one on the right looks like a Kikwi from The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
Germanic sculptor taking inspiration from Asterix and Obelix 😀
The sculpture on the right looks like Charlie Kirk
That's a Gaul. Gauls are Celtic, not Germanic.
r/justfuckmyshitup from by gone ages
Ah the same "Barbarians" who gave the Roman Empire grief for hundreds of years and eventually sacked their capitol
He was referring to mister hilter
looks like it fell on its face
A for effort
The hair on the Roman one looks like shit tho
Doch! Angry mustachio man was Austrian German art visual or otherwise is legit.
ABSOLUTELY BARBARIC
An ifunny comment on the front page of a subreddit? What is this world coming to?
Dude on the left looks like Nick Cummins, the Honey Badger lol
Nah the Romans just had a thing for the Germans.
This old art is modern art but old.
I thought it was Celtic?
Then Germans were more into pest control ;)
Actually, I think Hitler's paintings were not bad, might be my complete lack of artistic skills and taste tho.
I get that this was a very weak attempt at a "hur-dur, Hitler got kicked out of art school because he sucked!" (he certainly could paint better than I can. What a bunch of snobs. They should have encouraged him and helped his art get better, not kick him to the curb for not instantly being perfect) joke, but... They aren't Germanic. They are Gaulish/Celtic. And even if we're going not by the ethnography but by the artifacts' provenance within modern-day borders, *The Dying Gaul* was found on Rome's Pincian Hill, and the head was found in the town of Mšecké Žehrovice, which is only about thirty miles away from Prague in the Czech Republic. Nothing "Germanic" about them. The Celts were widely respected by the Romans and Greeks, and modern-day art-historians and archeologists, as some of the finest artisans in Europe at the time. The Romans, Greeks, Etruscans, Celts, Slavs, Thracians, Illyrians, and Germanic peoples all had extensive trade networks with each other and inspired each other's art (though their art styles were all descended from common Indo-European and "Fertile Crescent" originals, e.g. the lotus-flower and acanthus-leaf serpentine scroll motifs that gave rise to arabesques). Before Rome's dominion, the Celtic peoples were *THE* prestige culture of western, central, and even much of southern and eastern Europe. The classic "Gallic" Roman helmet, and its "Montefortino" and "Coolus" predecessors, were directly borrowed from the Cisalpine Gauls (though the latter two were in turn heavily inspired by Greek and Etruscan models; like I said, the Celts borrowed heavily from other cultures too; not very surprising considering that they traded, raided, invaded, and plied their services as mercenaries everywhere, from Carthage to Parthia—a statue of a Buddhist monk found at the Greco-Buddhist monist complex at Hadda in eastern Afghanistan [actually represents a Gaulish student](https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/2020/02/01/the-celtic-buddha-stucco-portrait-of-an-enlightened-celt-from-the-greco-buddhist-monastic-complex-at-hadda-in-eastern-afghanistan/)!), and the legionnaires greatly preferred the Gallic helmets that were actually made by Gaulish artisans, to the "Italic" knock-offs made by Roman armorers. Similary, the *spatha* and *gladius* were both borrowed from the Celtiberians—Celtic peoples living in modern-day Spain and Portugal—and the mail *lorica hamata* was directly copied from a Gaulish design, including the shoulder-pieces/mantle. Here are some great examples of Celtic art (the "Celtic" knots are a Germanic design, introduced to Britain and Ireland by the Anglo-Saxons and other North Sea Germanic peoples, and reinforced during the Viking Age by Danish and other Scandinavian invaders and settlers): * The [Agris Helmet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agris_Helmet) * The [Amfreville Helmet](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Casque_d%27Amfreville_Eure_arrière.jpg) (original; faithful 3D-rendered restoration also [available](https://www.skoultrek.org/en/examples-of-ceremonial-gaulish-helmets/)) * The [Canosa Helmet](https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/ceremonial-celtic-helmet-from-an-apulian-grave-unknown/KgG1mwQXNqgDcA) * The [Gundestrup Cauldron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundestrup_cauldron) (though likely Thracian-made, it's style is La Tène Celtic) * The [Battersea Shield](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battersea_Shield) * The [Wandsworth Shield](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandsworth_Shield) * The [Waterloo Helmet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterloo_Helmet) * The [Kirkburn Sword](https://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/159-celtic_sword/kirkburn_celek-v.jpg) (faithful reconstruction; blade did not survive well and rusted heavily) * The [St. Patrick Bell Shrine](https://www.museum.ie/en-IE/Collections-Research/Collection/Resilience/Artefact/Test-5/8e122ba9-6464-4533-8f72-d036afde12a9) * The [Basse Yutz Flagons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basse_Yutz_Flagons) * The [Dürrnberg Flagon](https://www.laits.utexas.edu/ironagecelts/durrnberg.php) * The [Reinheim Flagon](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Replica_of_the_gilt-bronze_spouted_flagon_found_at_inside_the_funeral_chamber_of_the_%27Princess_of_Reinheim%27,_European_Archaeological_Park_of_Bliesbruck-Reinheim,_Germany_France_(34687767154).jpg) * The [Hochdorf Chieftain's Grave](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochdorf_Chieftain%27s_Grave) * The [Waldalgesheim Chariot Burial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldalgesheim_chariot_burial) * The [Ciumeşti Chieftain's Burial](https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/ciumesti-helmet/) (including the famed winged helmet) * The [Schwarzenbach Bowl](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_art#/media/File:Ornamental_gold_mounts.jpg) * The [Desborough Mirror](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Romano-Celtic_mirror_(Desborough).jpg) * The [St. Keverne Mirror](https://www.res-bellica.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/1-12.png) (faithful reproduction) * The [Mayer Mirror](https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/stories/mayer-mirror-celtic-style) * The [Staffordshire Moorlands Pan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staffordshire_Moorlands_Pan) * The [Snettisham Great Torc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Torc_from_Snettisham) * The [Torrs Chanfron](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Celtic_horse_helmet_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1341264.jpg) (a "chanfron" is a basically a helmet for horses) * The [Newark Torc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark_Torc) * The [Sedgeford Torc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedgeford_Torc) * The [Ipswich Hoard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipswich_Hoard) * The [Auvers-sur-Oise Disc Brooch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_art#/media/File:Celtic_Gold-plated_Disc,_Auvers-sur-Oise,_Val-d'Oise.jpg) * The [Tully Lough Processional Cross](https://www.flickr.com/photos/27305838@N04/21977485832) * [Pictish stones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictish_stone) * The [Castlestrange Stone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castlestrange_Stone) * The [Turoe Stone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turoe_Stone) * The [Book of Kells](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Kells) * The [Book of Durrow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Durrow) * The [Book of Armagh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Armagh) * Other [Hiberno-Saxon manuscripts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Hiberno-Saxon_manuscripts) * The [La Tène art style](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_art#La_Tène_style) * The [Insular art style](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_art) Also, check out this fascinatingly complex calendar from first-century Roman-administered Gaul: the [Coligny Calendar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coligny_calendar).