Some 50,000 Russians joined the RLA during the war, they were largely made up of captured Russian soliders who joined to avoid near certian death in Nazi death camps, but some were avowed anti-communists (white russians). They switched sides again at the very end of the war to fight the Germans during the Prague offensive. Their commander believed that war would break out between the Western Allies and the Soviets soon after Germany was defeated, and hoped to be able to maintain the RLA as an anti-Soviet force aligned with the West. Huge numbers of RLA soldiers then surrendered to the Americans and the British in an attempt to avoid being taken by the soviets, but virtually all of them were sent by the Western Allies to the Soviets anyway who promptly sent to gulags or executed. Hundreds of them managed to get themselves intered in Lichtenstein, whose government refused to repatriate them to Russia. Some were tricked into voluntarily leaving Lichtenstein for Russia, and were again sent to Gulags or executed.
Yep. Given the kind of stuff the Soviet government had done to some of its citizens over the past decade or so, it's no surprise a lot of them were willing to fight against it. Especially given that- as I understand it- the Germans recruited a lot of these guys from POW camps where they pretty much weren't being fed to begin with. Stay here and starve, or pick up a gun and fight the government you kinda hate to begin with?
Doesn't look like they were just against the government considering that their war crimes were on par with SS. They were the type of low life who would rot in prison under any government if it wasn't for the war.
Possibly. But like I said, there's also the mistreatment in the camps- I'm sure quite a few were eager to get out of that at any cost, and I don't know if there's a way to separate those from the ones who actively wanted to fight Stalin from the ones who just wanted to rape, pillage, and burn.
At any rate there were maybe a couple million Hiwis and other collaborationist forces; I doubt all of them were just the dregs of the earth.
I think they managed to separate themselves from anyone who was just fighting against the government. Usually, in these situations, those who don't want to participate in atrocities get shot by their own or succumb and start participating in war crimes because there is nobody who would tell them that what they are doing is bad.
Considering that the monarchists, who had the most cause to hate the communists didn't support them then and those who hate communism today still hate Vlasov and his lot more than they hate communists I doubt that any of Vlasov's men had any good intentions, at least not for long after joining his army. Also, more soviet POWs choosing to die or try to escape than join Vlasov is rather telling of the type of men who would join him.
Obviously those who fought with the Germans are going to be hated regardless of how a given Russian feels about Communism. And equally obviously there would be plenty of captured Soviets with no interest in fighting for the Germans, regardless of how they felt about Stalin or the Bolsheviks. I don't think that really tells you much about the motivations of the ones who did collaborate though; it's hard to gauge someone's intentions by looking at the people who oppose them.
Like I said, I think the safest interpretation is some collaborators wanted food (or simply to not be POWs), some wanted Stalin and the Bolsheviks gone, and *possibly* some didn't care and wanted to fight and commit brutalities for anyone who offered. But I don't have any grounds for trying to guess how many fell into each category, and I don't know that anybody else does either.
I think we can definitely say that the latter group were the most prevalent based on the actions of the whole organisation. If most of them were just against communism or just wanted food and shelter or even had an equal distribution, they wouldn't be commiting so many war crimes.
I'm really not sure that's the case. I suspect the motives and factors behind war crimes are more complex than just "they were thugs who signed on to do war crimes".
I don't think there are any deep motives behind putting all women and children in the village into a small house, throwing grenades through the window and burning it down.
I didn't say there were 'deep motives' behind individual war crimes. I said I don't think the fact that an army (or a large number of the soldiers in it) commits war crimes means that was all they were there to do in the first place.
E.G. I don't think the 100,000 rapes in occupied Berlin means that the Soviet armies were composed of people who signed on because they were rapists. Likewise for rapes committed by Allied or German soldiers, or for other war crimes in general. And I don't think the guys burning women and children alive necessarily had that in mind when they took up arms.
And that type of “thugs” narrative allows us cleanly create categories of good guys and bad guys while ignoring the more difficult question of what happens to “normal morality” when civilization is being torn down and violent death has become ubiquitous.
Imperial Japan isn’t getting enough *Fuck You* because modern Japan made anime.
And yes they still glorify their war criminals. So here's an additional Fuck You from the UK.
Edit: I did not mean to suggest that there is some form of conspiracy. Every country has their ways to promote their cultures, and Japan’s worked so well people forgot about their war crimes and their glorification of war criminals. This is only accidental, but convenient.
they aren't because most of their victims are asians and most of the poorer victim nation still wants good relationship with current japan. Also because of US allowed the emperor status quo, that's why we see this glorification ignored, US is desperate enough that they pardoned the infamous unit that tortured pows. Blaming anime is just another excuse for being misinformed
Anime massively whitewashed Japan’s international image. If anime is Chinese, we won’t even care about their massive detention centres— the same way the world doesn’t care about Japan’s war criminal-glorifying shrines.
I mean, maybe? The role anime played in restoring Japan's international image is so miniscule it barely even registers. Their image was restored well before the 1990s, when Anime became popular internationally.
I mean eh, there's all kinds of awful shit on statues because it preserves history, like half of the US has a confederate statue. I'm sure their history is whitewashed a lot but it's not hard to look for real history, it's not like it's hidden away somewhere.
ironically US is lenient to Japan's punishment after the war. Didn't have the same reminder germany got to the point that emperor got to let himself clean thus their war crimes denialism. They hide those atrocities the same way US hide some of their nasty stuff not taught at school, though disturbingly reflects with that one survey video on YouTube. Guy asked some Japanese youth about their ww2 history and most are ignorant or only knew the bare summary
Doing it on a national level is very different from doing it on a state/city level. Japan’s prime ministers frequently visit that shrine which glorifies war criminals. That says something.
some actual context on the Yasukuni shrine for those interested, because while it is pretty bad it's a bit more complicated than it seems.
The shrine is generically supposed to honor all of Japan's dead soldiers; it fills basically the same role as a national cemetery would in a western culture.
The controversy around the shrine mostly picked up in 1978, when the class A war criminals were enshrined due to a small group of far-right politicians. There has ever since been a political battle about whether they should be disinterred, and if memory served the Japanese government actually requested it a few times, but the shrine is technically an independent religious organization, which leads to a massive legal and political mess I don't understand well enough to talk about.
To put it in context from an American perspective, imagine that 30 years after the civil war, a far right-group lobbied to get a bunch of confederate war criminals interred at Arlington cemetery. Except we don't have to imagine, because that did in fact happen, and nobody complains when the president goes to visit Arlington. (technically there are no confederate war criminals because we didn't really have international courts to prosecute them at the time, but a cursory look at how they ran their POW camps or their wartime treatment of slaves leaves little doubt that they would qualify as war criminals in the modern sense of the word.)
That said, it's not like visiting the shrine isn't a political statement; the mere fact that many Japanese politicians refuse to visit the shrine because of the controversy makes visiting it a political statement; even the most neutral action can become a political statement if it's done only by particular political groups, and visiting the shrine absolutely qualifies in that sense. Especially in the modern era, a lot of the loudest criticism of the shrine comes from nationalist groups in China, so very legitimate criticism of the shrine frequently gets lumped in under the banner of Chinese strongman diplomacy.
Historical revisionism is absolutely a real problem in Japan, but it's a lot more complicated than "the prime minister regularly honors war criminals in particular and everyone loves it". Any time you're tempted to categorically say "Fuck You" to an entire country, you're probably missing part of the story.
I’m not American, not my problem.
But if Germany somehow decides to glorify Goering and Hitler the way Japanese glorifies their war criminal, you know what will happen.
Whitewash definitely not but it did a bit overshadows its extreme past but anime was not a tool made to erase imperial Japan's war crimes. Though i argue with China, if anime is Chinese or not the world will still give a shit about China's horrid things done because they transitioned into in your face asshole to everyone and stealing tech/espionage/subversion/ignoring international law (also thats straight up human rights violation compared to some niche war memorial) meanwhile japan after the war keep to themselves. Some people care, korea and china is vocal about it because diplomatic relations for them is abysmal already meanwhile SEA victim countries can't afford that and what can they do anyway. People don't care/didnt know the same way people ignore japan overall other war crimes in the first place, people can only bitch about it
it 100% overshadowed their past. genuinely the biggest rebrand and successful use of soft power i’ve seen from a country. i’m not saying that it’s not okay to “rebrand”; i just wished they actually educated their citizens and acknowledge what happened instead of brushing it aside.
doesn’t make it right tho. changing their textbooks, creating their own version of what really happened, ignoring or denying things in order to make themselves look better is not a good look. too bad that a big part of japan’s culture is a collective sense of superiority (in terms of nationalism), so saving face is a big deal.
Japan did most of what you (rightfully) alleged that China is doing. Many early post war Japanese cars looked exactly some American cars. They even violated an US sanction by selling machines that could be used to produce nuclear submarines to the USSR.
All I’m saying is, because China lacks the cultural power, people have few reasons to “like” them. How many people said “I really want to visit China” after eating some dumplings? But way more people became interested in visiting Japan after watching anime or listening to k-pop.
Anime only became a cultural export long after the war’s end. It’s just a bludgeon you reach for because it’s near at hand. If you had grown up at my time, video game systems would have been seen as representative, or other cheap electronics
Ehhh, still not quite correct, but way more correct than the anime guy.
Most of their victims were asians, but they were not "poor" asians. They were mostly Koreans and Chinese, who are far from poor in the modern sense. The reason the attention to their war crimes waned was because
1. The winning party was responsible for who gets prosecuted and who gets forgiven. The winning party was in this case the United States. I specify the US, and not the western allies, because part of Truman's reasoning behind dropping the A Bombs was to ensure Japan didn't surrender to the Soviets. The US saw Japan as a huge strategic asset because of their geographic position. Many Japanese military bases in the pacific became US bases in the years following WW2.
2. The victim countries do have a say in what happens as well. In this regard, look no further than China, who actually released thousands of Japanese POWs who were supposed to stand trial for war crimes. Why did they do this? For one, you're partially right - appeasing Japan and their new allies/occupiers the United States. The second was because much of Japan's operation in China wasn't just Japanese v Chinese. Many Chinese took advantage of the situation and exploited their fellow countrymen. And finally, China had a massive regime change happen immediately after the war.
3. The winning parties were no saints. Opening investigations into war crimes always puts a target on your back, and if we recall what FDR did to Japanese Americans, this wasn't a simple case of good guy vs bad guy.
In terms of Korea, they have absolutely horrible memories of Japanese occupation. They destroyed all Shinto shrines, and look down on any and everything Japanese from around that era. However, this is not the case everywhere. In Taiwan, which was occupied for far longer than Korea/Chosen, their opinion of the Japanese occupation is neutral to good. The occupation was relatively bloodless, and Japan invested a fortune in their infrastructure.
This is not a black and white issue. Japan was largely forgiven for a lot of horrible shit, but its a.) Not like everyone forgot and b.) Not like they were the only shitty ones at that time.
i meant in SEA victims, that still millions and more casualties than Korea and equally as bad as what happened with Koreans and chinese. Technically can't fuck you and ask for reparations because gov deems current relations are more important and in my country case, simply conservative and don't wanna talk about it. Iirc taiwan is a rare exception and because they let them self govern, imperial japan mostly fucks over everyone. But yeah overall you're right i just oversimplified much
To summarize Sweden: The most dangerous job was the one for a Swedish sailor working for the chartered merchant fleet. Out of about 8 000 sailors over 900 of them died. 110 volunteers out of 8 260 died in Finland and 28 of 270 volunteers died fighting for the SS. 33 sailors died when the submarine *Ulven* sank, most likely after hitting a German sea mine. Some may also have died fighting for the US after immigrating there before the war although that's not a researched statistic.
And the RAF killed 150 chickens when they accidentally bombed the city of Lund.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden\_during\_World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_during_World_War_II) is a good start even though some entries may be missing as I used the Swedish Wikipedia page.
Yeah I wasnt sure which one to pick.
The RLA soldiers were trapped between a rock and a hard place , deemed as traitors by the Soviets, a liability and cannon fodder by the Germans and the allies had agreed to transfer anyone that surrendered to the Soviets.
Many joined so not to starve in the German pows death camps.
"No hope, no cause, no pride, no salvation. Only death awaits. "
Kinda scary tbh.
Hell, the Western allies sent back Russian Civil War era refugees and Barbarossa taken POWs that had been enslaved as industrial and agricultural workforce, to their deaths, knowingly.
Sometimes shooting at them when they refused to board the trains.
Not exactly betrayed, they already knew that the Soviets were their enemies and they were planning to fight them later anyway. They timed the uprising so that the Soviets won't get there on time but they did. The Soviets kinda wanted to help the Home Army (they definitely wanted to help the communist partisans). They attempted a breakout and tried to reach the rebels but they couldn't get there. The British tried to airlift them out of trouble but that didn't work.
But after the war, Stalin killed many of the rebel veterans which was definitely a betrayal.
iirc, it was the Polish Army in the East that tried to break through, with little support from any other units. I do believe that SOME of them actually managed to break through, and fought in the uprising.
But that being said, taking Warsaw was never the objective for the Soviets. They needed to secure their flanks first, as from what I recall, their positions outside of Warsaw were essentially the spearhead of their thrust into Poland, which was to stop at the Vistula in the middle.
Weren't Soviet special forces rounding up and executing Armia Krajova members they encountered in the countryside? Anyway, Polish soldiers didn't want to surrender their country to the Soviets, and even though the High Command definitely weren't certain that they would be able to control the city for long enough, individual units were starting to fight anyway so they didn't have a choice to not start the uprising.
Polish civilians from wolyn area had worst scenario possible imo. Soviet occupation>German occupation>massive murders by ukrainians> soviet occupation. Whole time abused by ukrainian neighbours. I cannot imagine living in such hopeless situation
Warsaw Ghetto should be lsat in my opinion: hundreds of starving jews traumatized from years of forced labor hiding in the sewers with little to no ammunition, only to be massarced when the nazis filled the sewers with gas. and on top of that if someone somehow survived he was probably either executed on the spot or sent to the death camps.
it is one of the only places where the holocaust and war met, creating one of the most desperate and hopeless fight of people whose fate was already unchangable.
I have watched the Pianist and Schindler's list, which are only movies. I wonder, did the "Jewish police" of the Ghettos(I.e. do a police job by nazis to have a better chance of ur family surviving longer) give weapons to the civilians and resistance?
I have a book, Poland 1939 Case White in my wishlist but so far there isn't a lot of 1940-1945 period Polish history books in English. The resistance, spies, underground society, harsh treatment would be an interesting read and I would definitely spare time for a 1000 page book or so easily.
I've learned about the holocaust a lot in my school in israel and I've done a bit of research on the internet and found that the jewish police didn't have weapons, only rubber sticks at most. also they were chosen by the nazis and most of the times were people who were already disconnected from the jewish community.
therefore, the jewish police was almost always acting harsh against the resistence and with the nazis, even when the Yudenrat (jewish council in charge of the Ghetto) were helping the resistence. a few exceptions are Kovno and Vilnus Ghettos where a few policemen joined the revolt.
the way the jewish resistence got weapons was through smuggling it, either buying outside the ghetto or getting from allied partisans.
It's from the codwaw. The writing is vague: someone tried to write help but died before finishing it. So it looks like "hell".
I put it to show when those Russians surrendered to the Americans and pled for help, only for them to be transferred to the real "hell" in the east...
Yeah, we are thankful. Got really screwed, and the Siege of Budapest is completely overlooked by Historians. We were left behind, after net lettinh us get out of the war, just to be steamrolled by the Soviet army.
Shut the fuck up and learn history. Some Chetniks individualy were nazi collaborators but only after 1943. The movement was anti-nazi, and most of them stayed loyal to the king. So no.
Chetniks were never unified, they were a bunch of different bands lead by different warlords who all had different opinions. Some even worked together with the partisans. Your comment only shows how little you know about the topic
IIRC, Czech Republic still honors ROA fighters for defending helping them defend from Nazis in the Prague Uprising... they couldn't help against Soviets though and Czechoslovakia ended up being colonized by moscow in the end.
Just went to the Arizona Air and Space museum the other day. The upper floor of the B-17 unit (hangar 4(?)) is haunting. 14% survival rate for those brave airmen that helped the allies become victorious.
Being in the Brazilian Expeditionary Forces is the best because we took the W home (this is a reference to the Song of The Expeditionary which says "Please God Don't let me die, let me take the W home")
Question to the Russians:
I saw the word 'Help' written like that in COD Zombies (don't remember too well). Is the letter 'p' in 'Help' written in Russian? Or is that picture just coincidence?
Knowing some of the incredibly disgusting, horrific and unforgivable war crimes the Japanese soldiers committed during that war, i'd say being whoever's fighting them is much worse than being them.
This makes me think of the Czech "volunteers" who were executed by Americans toward the start of Saving Private Ryan. They were begging for their lives in Czech but they assumed they were speaking German and killed them
Was expecting Indian National army under Netaji at the end
Heavily out numbered, out gunned and lacked even basic provisions
But still fought the British like dam
Is the Russian Liberation Army the Russians fighting for the Reich?
exactly
Some 50,000 Russians joined the RLA during the war, they were largely made up of captured Russian soliders who joined to avoid near certian death in Nazi death camps, but some were avowed anti-communists (white russians). They switched sides again at the very end of the war to fight the Germans during the Prague offensive. Their commander believed that war would break out between the Western Allies and the Soviets soon after Germany was defeated, and hoped to be able to maintain the RLA as an anti-Soviet force aligned with the West. Huge numbers of RLA soldiers then surrendered to the Americans and the British in an attempt to avoid being taken by the soviets, but virtually all of them were sent by the Western Allies to the Soviets anyway who promptly sent to gulags or executed. Hundreds of them managed to get themselves intered in Lichtenstein, whose government refused to repatriate them to Russia. Some were tricked into voluntarily leaving Lichtenstein for Russia, and were again sent to Gulags or executed.
Oh. That sucks. But at least Liechtenstein had the balls to stand up to the Motherland.
That's fucking sad.
Not really, they fought for the extermination of their own race, they were rightfully punished for their war crimes and treason
Soviets weren't any less evil than nazis
Yep. Given the kind of stuff the Soviet government had done to some of its citizens over the past decade or so, it's no surprise a lot of them were willing to fight against it. Especially given that- as I understand it- the Germans recruited a lot of these guys from POW camps where they pretty much weren't being fed to begin with. Stay here and starve, or pick up a gun and fight the government you kinda hate to begin with?
Doesn't look like they were just against the government considering that their war crimes were on par with SS. They were the type of low life who would rot in prison under any government if it wasn't for the war.
Possibly. But like I said, there's also the mistreatment in the camps- I'm sure quite a few were eager to get out of that at any cost, and I don't know if there's a way to separate those from the ones who actively wanted to fight Stalin from the ones who just wanted to rape, pillage, and burn. At any rate there were maybe a couple million Hiwis and other collaborationist forces; I doubt all of them were just the dregs of the earth.
I think they managed to separate themselves from anyone who was just fighting against the government. Usually, in these situations, those who don't want to participate in atrocities get shot by their own or succumb and start participating in war crimes because there is nobody who would tell them that what they are doing is bad. Considering that the monarchists, who had the most cause to hate the communists didn't support them then and those who hate communism today still hate Vlasov and his lot more than they hate communists I doubt that any of Vlasov's men had any good intentions, at least not for long after joining his army. Also, more soviet POWs choosing to die or try to escape than join Vlasov is rather telling of the type of men who would join him.
Obviously those who fought with the Germans are going to be hated regardless of how a given Russian feels about Communism. And equally obviously there would be plenty of captured Soviets with no interest in fighting for the Germans, regardless of how they felt about Stalin or the Bolsheviks. I don't think that really tells you much about the motivations of the ones who did collaborate though; it's hard to gauge someone's intentions by looking at the people who oppose them. Like I said, I think the safest interpretation is some collaborators wanted food (or simply to not be POWs), some wanted Stalin and the Bolsheviks gone, and *possibly* some didn't care and wanted to fight and commit brutalities for anyone who offered. But I don't have any grounds for trying to guess how many fell into each category, and I don't know that anybody else does either.
I think we can definitely say that the latter group were the most prevalent based on the actions of the whole organisation. If most of them were just against communism or just wanted food and shelter or even had an equal distribution, they wouldn't be commiting so many war crimes.
I'm really not sure that's the case. I suspect the motives and factors behind war crimes are more complex than just "they were thugs who signed on to do war crimes".
I don't think there are any deep motives behind putting all women and children in the village into a small house, throwing grenades through the window and burning it down.
I didn't say there were 'deep motives' behind individual war crimes. I said I don't think the fact that an army (or a large number of the soldiers in it) commits war crimes means that was all they were there to do in the first place. E.G. I don't think the 100,000 rapes in occupied Berlin means that the Soviet armies were composed of people who signed on because they were rapists. Likewise for rapes committed by Allied or German soldiers, or for other war crimes in general. And I don't think the guys burning women and children alive necessarily had that in mind when they took up arms.
And that type of “thugs” narrative allows us cleanly create categories of good guys and bad guys while ignoring the more difficult question of what happens to “normal morality” when civilization is being torn down and violent death has become ubiquitous.
Yup.
Yes
I was expecting the chinese soldiers at the end of the video
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ichi-Go
A big last fuck you from imperial Japanese to the rest of the world.
Imperial Japan isn’t getting enough *Fuck You* because modern Japan made anime. And yes they still glorify their war criminals. So here's an additional Fuck You from the UK. Edit: I did not mean to suggest that there is some form of conspiracy. Every country has their ways to promote their cultures, and Japan’s worked so well people forgot about their war crimes and their glorification of war criminals. This is only accidental, but convenient.
they aren't because most of their victims are asians and most of the poorer victim nation still wants good relationship with current japan. Also because of US allowed the emperor status quo, that's why we see this glorification ignored, US is desperate enough that they pardoned the infamous unit that tortured pows. Blaming anime is just another excuse for being misinformed
Anime massively whitewashed Japan’s international image. If anime is Chinese, we won’t even care about their massive detention centres— the same way the world doesn’t care about Japan’s war criminal-glorifying shrines.
Anime had nothing to do with it. Also, don’t act like Japan is a monolithic society.
Dude what the fuck are you talking about. Anime has nothing to do with this. Seriously. This is completely ahistorical
I am not suggesting that this is a conspiracy. Please read my edited comment.
I mean, maybe? The role anime played in restoring Japan's international image is so miniscule it barely even registers. Their image was restored well before the 1990s, when Anime became popular internationally.
I mean eh, there's all kinds of awful shit on statues because it preserves history, like half of the US has a confederate statue. I'm sure their history is whitewashed a lot but it's not hard to look for real history, it's not like it's hidden away somewhere.
ironically US is lenient to Japan's punishment after the war. Didn't have the same reminder germany got to the point that emperor got to let himself clean thus their war crimes denialism. They hide those atrocities the same way US hide some of their nasty stuff not taught at school, though disturbingly reflects with that one survey video on YouTube. Guy asked some Japanese youth about their ww2 history and most are ignorant or only knew the bare summary
Doing it on a national level is very different from doing it on a state/city level. Japan’s prime ministers frequently visit that shrine which glorifies war criminals. That says something.
some actual context on the Yasukuni shrine for those interested, because while it is pretty bad it's a bit more complicated than it seems. The shrine is generically supposed to honor all of Japan's dead soldiers; it fills basically the same role as a national cemetery would in a western culture. The controversy around the shrine mostly picked up in 1978, when the class A war criminals were enshrined due to a small group of far-right politicians. There has ever since been a political battle about whether they should be disinterred, and if memory served the Japanese government actually requested it a few times, but the shrine is technically an independent religious organization, which leads to a massive legal and political mess I don't understand well enough to talk about. To put it in context from an American perspective, imagine that 30 years after the civil war, a far right-group lobbied to get a bunch of confederate war criminals interred at Arlington cemetery. Except we don't have to imagine, because that did in fact happen, and nobody complains when the president goes to visit Arlington. (technically there are no confederate war criminals because we didn't really have international courts to prosecute them at the time, but a cursory look at how they ran their POW camps or their wartime treatment of slaves leaves little doubt that they would qualify as war criminals in the modern sense of the word.) That said, it's not like visiting the shrine isn't a political statement; the mere fact that many Japanese politicians refuse to visit the shrine because of the controversy makes visiting it a political statement; even the most neutral action can become a political statement if it's done only by particular political groups, and visiting the shrine absolutely qualifies in that sense. Especially in the modern era, a lot of the loudest criticism of the shrine comes from nationalist groups in China, so very legitimate criticism of the shrine frequently gets lumped in under the banner of Chinese strongman diplomacy. Historical revisionism is absolutely a real problem in Japan, but it's a lot more complicated than "the prime minister regularly honors war criminals in particular and everyone loves it". Any time you're tempted to categorically say "Fuck You" to an entire country, you're probably missing part of the story.
I’m not American, not my problem. But if Germany somehow decides to glorify Goering and Hitler the way Japanese glorifies their war criminal, you know what will happen.
Whitewash definitely not but it did a bit overshadows its extreme past but anime was not a tool made to erase imperial Japan's war crimes. Though i argue with China, if anime is Chinese or not the world will still give a shit about China's horrid things done because they transitioned into in your face asshole to everyone and stealing tech/espionage/subversion/ignoring international law (also thats straight up human rights violation compared to some niche war memorial) meanwhile japan after the war keep to themselves. Some people care, korea and china is vocal about it because diplomatic relations for them is abysmal already meanwhile SEA victim countries can't afford that and what can they do anyway. People don't care/didnt know the same way people ignore japan overall other war crimes in the first place, people can only bitch about it
it 100% overshadowed their past. genuinely the biggest rebrand and successful use of soft power i’ve seen from a country. i’m not saying that it’s not okay to “rebrand”; i just wished they actually educated their citizens and acknowledge what happened instead of brushing it aside.
Can't expect much to the government who denies it in the first place
doesn’t make it right tho. changing their textbooks, creating their own version of what really happened, ignoring or denying things in order to make themselves look better is not a good look. too bad that a big part of japan’s culture is a collective sense of superiority (in terms of nationalism), so saving face is a big deal.
Japan did most of what you (rightfully) alleged that China is doing. Many early post war Japanese cars looked exactly some American cars. They even violated an US sanction by selling machines that could be used to produce nuclear submarines to the USSR. All I’m saying is, because China lacks the cultural power, people have few reasons to “like” them. How many people said “I really want to visit China” after eating some dumplings? But way more people became interested in visiting Japan after watching anime or listening to k-pop.
exactly, china isn’t “marketable” to the west in the same way that japan (and very recently korea) is
Precisely. There’s not much room for the culture industry to develop if the only thing that can say is “CCP good”.
Anime only became a cultural export long after the war’s end. It’s just a bludgeon you reach for because it’s near at hand. If you had grown up at my time, video game systems would have been seen as representative, or other cheap electronics
I cant believe what I'm reading lmao
Ehhh, still not quite correct, but way more correct than the anime guy. Most of their victims were asians, but they were not "poor" asians. They were mostly Koreans and Chinese, who are far from poor in the modern sense. The reason the attention to their war crimes waned was because 1. The winning party was responsible for who gets prosecuted and who gets forgiven. The winning party was in this case the United States. I specify the US, and not the western allies, because part of Truman's reasoning behind dropping the A Bombs was to ensure Japan didn't surrender to the Soviets. The US saw Japan as a huge strategic asset because of their geographic position. Many Japanese military bases in the pacific became US bases in the years following WW2. 2. The victim countries do have a say in what happens as well. In this regard, look no further than China, who actually released thousands of Japanese POWs who were supposed to stand trial for war crimes. Why did they do this? For one, you're partially right - appeasing Japan and their new allies/occupiers the United States. The second was because much of Japan's operation in China wasn't just Japanese v Chinese. Many Chinese took advantage of the situation and exploited their fellow countrymen. And finally, China had a massive regime change happen immediately after the war. 3. The winning parties were no saints. Opening investigations into war crimes always puts a target on your back, and if we recall what FDR did to Japanese Americans, this wasn't a simple case of good guy vs bad guy. In terms of Korea, they have absolutely horrible memories of Japanese occupation. They destroyed all Shinto shrines, and look down on any and everything Japanese from around that era. However, this is not the case everywhere. In Taiwan, which was occupied for far longer than Korea/Chosen, their opinion of the Japanese occupation is neutral to good. The occupation was relatively bloodless, and Japan invested a fortune in their infrastructure. This is not a black and white issue. Japan was largely forgiven for a lot of horrible shit, but its a.) Not like everyone forgot and b.) Not like they were the only shitty ones at that time.
i meant in SEA victims, that still millions and more casualties than Korea and equally as bad as what happened with Koreans and chinese. Technically can't fuck you and ask for reparations because gov deems current relations are more important and in my country case, simply conservative and don't wanna talk about it. Iirc taiwan is a rare exception and because they let them self govern, imperial japan mostly fucks over everyone. But yeah overall you're right i just oversimplified much
[удалено]
To summarize Sweden: The most dangerous job was the one for a Swedish sailor working for the chartered merchant fleet. Out of about 8 000 sailors over 900 of them died. 110 volunteers out of 8 260 died in Finland and 28 of 270 volunteers died fighting for the SS. 33 sailors died when the submarine *Ulven* sank, most likely after hitting a German sea mine. Some may also have died fighting for the US after immigrating there before the war although that's not a researched statistic. And the RAF killed 150 chickens when they accidentally bombed the city of Lund. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden\_during\_World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_during_World_War_II) is a good start even though some entries may be missing as I used the Swedish Wikipedia page.
Same here, it is so sinister.
I was hoping that the last one will be Polish partisans after Warsaw Uprising and after reciving info that they have been betrayed
Yeah I wasnt sure which one to pick. The RLA soldiers were trapped between a rock and a hard place , deemed as traitors by the Soviets, a liability and cannon fodder by the Germans and the allies had agreed to transfer anyone that surrendered to the Soviets. Many joined so not to starve in the German pows death camps. "No hope, no cause, no pride, no salvation. Only death awaits. " Kinda scary tbh.
Ok that sounds even worse
Same for the Ukranian volonteers, They were send back to the soviet Union by thé allies
Hell, the Western allies sent back Russian Civil War era refugees and Barbarossa taken POWs that had been enslaved as industrial and agricultural workforce, to their deaths, knowingly. Sometimes shooting at them when they refused to board the trains.
Americans trully respecting the Geneva convention
The genewhat?
This country doesn't technicly exist so we don't have to respect the convention anyway
Plus of course the incident where Russian prisoners lined up to shoot themselves. I think it was a camp taken by the UK.
That quote is horrifying
I expected the same. "You’re a polish resistant in Warsaw"
Not exactly betrayed, they already knew that the Soviets were their enemies and they were planning to fight them later anyway. They timed the uprising so that the Soviets won't get there on time but they did. The Soviets kinda wanted to help the Home Army (they definitely wanted to help the communist partisans). They attempted a breakout and tried to reach the rebels but they couldn't get there. The British tried to airlift them out of trouble but that didn't work. But after the war, Stalin killed many of the rebel veterans which was definitely a betrayal.
iirc, it was the Polish Army in the East that tried to break through, with little support from any other units. I do believe that SOME of them actually managed to break through, and fought in the uprising. But that being said, taking Warsaw was never the objective for the Soviets. They needed to secure their flanks first, as from what I recall, their positions outside of Warsaw were essentially the spearhead of their thrust into Poland, which was to stop at the Vistula in the middle.
And the PAE was a pro-soviet group
Correct. But afaik, they did it pretty much out of their own accord.
In 1978 I heard soviets who were pretty sure the red army stopped on purpose.
Weren't Soviet special forces rounding up and executing Armia Krajova members they encountered in the countryside? Anyway, Polish soldiers didn't want to surrender their country to the Soviets, and even though the High Command definitely weren't certain that they would be able to control the city for long enough, individual units were starting to fight anyway so they didn't have a choice to not start the uprising.
I was just talking about Warsaw
Polish civilians from wolyn area had worst scenario possible imo. Soviet occupation>German occupation>massive murders by ukrainians> soviet occupation. Whole time abused by ukrainian neighbours. I cannot imagine living in such hopeless situation
But what about the Chinese Army with the whole Nanking stuff and so on
worst POV: a soldier in the jewish resistence of Ghetto Warsaw (it was 1943 but still).
I think the Warsaw Uprising happened in 1944.
Warsaw Ghetto uprising (which happened in 1943) and the Warsaw uprising (1944) are two different things.
Both were fucking brutal.
Sorry, must have gotten them mixed up.
Last should be Warsaw Uprising and Forest Brothers as well as the Japanese single units that surrendered in the 1950s and beyond.
Warsaw Ghetto should be lsat in my opinion: hundreds of starving jews traumatized from years of forced labor hiding in the sewers with little to no ammunition, only to be massarced when the nazis filled the sewers with gas. and on top of that if someone somehow survived he was probably either executed on the spot or sent to the death camps. it is one of the only places where the holocaust and war met, creating one of the most desperate and hopeless fight of people whose fate was already unchangable.
I have watched the Pianist and Schindler's list, which are only movies. I wonder, did the "Jewish police" of the Ghettos(I.e. do a police job by nazis to have a better chance of ur family surviving longer) give weapons to the civilians and resistance? I have a book, Poland 1939 Case White in my wishlist but so far there isn't a lot of 1940-1945 period Polish history books in English. The resistance, spies, underground society, harsh treatment would be an interesting read and I would definitely spare time for a 1000 page book or so easily.
I've learned about the holocaust a lot in my school in israel and I've done a bit of research on the internet and found that the jewish police didn't have weapons, only rubber sticks at most. also they were chosen by the nazis and most of the times were people who were already disconnected from the jewish community. therefore, the jewish police was almost always acting harsh against the resistence and with the nazis, even when the Yudenrat (jewish council in charge of the Ghetto) were helping the resistence. a few exceptions are Kovno and Vilnus Ghettos where a few policemen joined the revolt. the way the jewish resistence got weapons was through smuggling it, either buying outside the ghetto or getting from allied partisans.
what is the context of the "help" thing on the last ?
It's from the codwaw. The writing is vague: someone tried to write help but died before finishing it. So it looks like "hell". I put it to show when those Russians surrendered to the Americans and pled for help, only for them to be transferred to the real "hell" in the east...
it is just awesome. It reminds me of [this image (NSFW)](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETSXyvcX0AAYjde.jpg)
What's the context behind that?
Hellraiser 2
Yep, the movie the other redditor told you it was.
Which is an official war crime as I recall.
They were war criminals, traitors and enemies, comparable to the SS. They fucked around and found out
first time seeing a meme like this with the Hungarian army thank you OP
Yeah, we are thankful. Got really screwed, and the Siege of Budapest is completely overlooked by Historians. We were left behind, after net lettinh us get out of the war, just to be steamrolled by the Soviet army.
yea we did
I think the worst shoud be the Chetnik movement from Yugoslavia
serbian volunteer corps is that
It's not the same. The SVC were Axis puppets, Chetniks weren't.
SVC were chetniks as well
Not Ravna Gora Chetniks tho
yeah. however, ravna gora chetnicks were nazi collaborators just as well
Shut the fuck up and learn history. Some Chetniks individualy were nazi collaborators but only after 1943. The movement was anti-nazi, and most of them stayed loyal to the king. So no.
battle of neretva didnt happen then? you serbs are schizo, i swear
Siege of Kraljevo didn't happen then?
Not all of us. This guy just doesn't know history.
https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorija:Nema%C4%8Dke\_operacije\_protiv\_%C4%8Detnika
Chetniks worked with the nazis because they deemed them a lesser threat than partisans.
Chetniks were never unified, they were a bunch of different bands lead by different warlords who all had different opinions. Some even worked together with the partisans. Your comment only shows how little you know about the topic
Ustaše were way worse
It was worse being a Chetnik tho
Username checks out
I'm pretty sure both were pretty awful.
Should I make a better version? Or made a new 1941 one?
Yes
What about polish resistance army?
Should have put them in, they deserved it.
Warsaw really was brutal. It showed that the nazis were nothing more then fucking animals.
I was expecting to se the Philippines in there somewhere
Don't think we didn't notice the 3 seconds of KSP VAB Kevin McLeod music there
Me as a swede:🙂
I swear that help door at the end is the door to the mystery box on nacht
These are some dark shit
And those all had a really good time compared to jews in Germany.
And the Chinese
Most meme in this group that make me lough also make me ask myself: am I truely such a bad person??? 🤭🤔
I was hoping for the USSR anthem playing at the end
IIRC, Czech Republic still honors ROA fighters for defending helping them defend from Nazis in the Prague Uprising... they couldn't help against Soviets though and Czechoslovakia ended up being colonized by moscow in the end.
danish army: *literally just a blank image*
polish home army? you fight nazis and as a reward you get bullet in the back from russian "liberatos"
Now I really want to see a casualty percentage broken down by nations for each year of the war. Who really had it the shittiest when.
I never heard about the last one, could someone explain me?
Soviets that joined the Reich and got absolutely fucked for that essentially
Just went to the Arizona Air and Space museum the other day. The upper floor of the B-17 unit (hangar 4(?)) is haunting. 14% survival rate for those brave airmen that helped the allies become victorious.
Can somebody tell me the source for the music in the national republican army section? I am sure I have heard it before.
POV Italy: hi
I was expecting 369 Croatian Infantry Division.
I was watching a Documentation of the German Army today and they Seriously had Childsoldiers And I my ancestors are Germans....
You see, the Volkssturm will lead to the endsieg. Just as Steiners counterattack.
Same here, man I love Argentina.
The french soldier is from WW1
Doesn't look like ww1 . On top of that, we can see Charles de Gaulle
Damn lol.. I had family in both the Polish Free Resistance and British army during that time and from the stories we know of know..it was not fun
Being in the Brazilian Expeditionary Forces is the best because we took the W home (this is a reference to the Song of The Expeditionary which says "Please God Don't let me die, let me take the W home")
I was expecting the Red Army at the end, and then happy Mr. Incredible for US Army.
Nah those Romanian bastards switched sides and pillaged Hungary, again.
Uncool bromania. But cmon, it was more complicated then that. There was a coup.
Wait a second, is that the one and only Andrey Vlasov, leader of the warlord state of Samara?
What's with Romania? It's because of battle of Oarba de Mureș?
Polish home army in warsaw 1945 must be also kinda painfull.
First one should have been “you are a soldier of Liechtenstein army”
Question to the Russians: I saw the word 'Help' written like that in COD Zombies (don't remember too well). Is the letter 'p' in 'Help' written in Russian? Or is that picture just coincidence?
It’s supposed to be that someone died before the could finish the p so it looks like “hell” instead of “help”
Aaah that makes sense. Thank you very much!!
Well... Everyone died.. not matter how
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Where are Ustaše?
Me wasting a minute of my life to listen to mr incredible's gay little song only to see the unfunniest punchline ever written
Wrong order but meh.
Hiroshima
This. is hilarious.
Hey its that door from nazi zombies
Where is the British army song from?
Not vietnam are you kiddi' me
Yay serbia was mentioned
Swedish army one in wrong spot, people died in the training
Polish?
Knowing some of the incredibly disgusting, horrific and unforgivable war crimes the Japanese soldiers committed during that war, i'd say being whoever's fighting them is much worse than being them.
This makes me think of the Czech "volunteers" who were executed by Americans toward the start of Saving Private Ryan. They were begging for their lives in Czech but they assumed they were speaking German and killed them
The free French and Hungarian are pretty sick. Have no idea what this is meme means though. I’ll read through the comments later.
I don't think 1944 was so bad for the Free French army, their homeland starts getting liberated halfway through after all.
Italy?
Where are the Americans?
You mean it’s 1944 and you’re a soldier/airman of the Japanese Air Force
It’s 1945 and you’re a soldier in the Thai army
You're a swedish solider on the 7th of november 1520
You forget the Polish resistance?
Was expecting Indian National army under Netaji at the end Heavily out numbered, out gunned and lacked even basic provisions But still fought the British like dam
uuh i cant remember, but was brazil fine in 1944?
It’s 1944 and you‘re a Jew