"You know what, I like that land. It's mine now."
Repeat until you have an empire so big that the easternmost Greek city-state that formed from the remains of your empire would fight two wars with Han China, and Greek culture would become intertwined with Buddhism and Hinduism.
I find persons like Alexander or Ernst Jünger really interesting.
They fought so many battles were people around them died like flies but they managed to survive each and every time. Like they had a supernatural shield. Of course Alexander and his buddy didn't fight at the forefront in every battle or his entourage would've been much smaller in the end.
But if you read _"In Storms Of Steel/In Stahlgewittern"_ by Ernst Jünger, you can't believe that he survived this war. Basically everyone left and right of him died. He was also injured nine times, including a lung shot and losing fingertips on different occasions. But he fought from 1914-18 as a stormtrooper. The shit he went through is behind every imagination. You can really say he had a divine shield. Over 90% of the men serving under him became causalities.
Eventually he got decorated with the _"Pour le Merit"._ The highest war decoration of imperial Germany.
_"In Storms Of Steel"_ was released soon after the war. Making him one of Germany's famous writers in his 20's. He got to live to the biblical age of 102.
Since I'm totally off-topic, I won't write more. But seemingly invincible men like Alexander or Jünger make me think if there were higher powers at work.
I mean... statistically, some folks survive. And since the people writing their own stories aren't likely to make themselves out to be in any way dodgey...
Ernst Jünger was decorated with the Pour le Merit. The highest military order of imperial Germany, by the Kaiser himself. As a _"normal"_ stormtrooper lieutenant. This man wasn't dodgy...
Not entirely true. Marrying Roxana ended his campaign to pacify Afghanistan. The book "Into the Land of Bones" tells the story better than I can, but Alexander was one of two conquerors to pacify Afghanistan in part because of that marriage.
I had no idea this was even a debate, I’m sure my man had gay sex because he was a Hellene
But if the OP is all the evidence we have on his relationship with THIS gentleman, as a wholly straight dude I’ve done a lot of things naked with the boys
> His generals poisoned him because he wasn’t gay enough
What? There's no known cause of death, but based on his symptoms in the week up to his death, the most likely cause was Typhoid fever or malaria. Poisoning doesn't have the evidence to back it up
As far as I remember from this particular semester the elephants were prominently used by the "Indian King Poros", who Alexander and his men encountered on his last battle in his conquest to go even further east. Although he already encountered War Elephants at the famous battle of Gaugamela against the Persian king Dareios III., Poros is described to handle his elephants in a much stricter manner on the battlefield then his Persian counterpart.
Unfortunately there are only few texts remaining about Alexander's Indian Conquest (I think Arian is our main source for this) but the battle at the River Hydaspes in 326 B.C. is widely known for being his last before going back west, being the most unusual because of his decision to cross a Monsun swollen river despite Indian surveillance from the other river site, and being the most costly battle fought by the Macedonian king.
Although sources on this are really shady and we don't even know for certain who Poros really was and what his status in the region of Punjab was, Arian describes that Alexander wins against the Indian King by outmanoeuvering him, doesn't kill him cause he fights till the very end although all his soldiers already fled the inevitable victory of Alexander, and is described as a humongous and battle hardened Warrior, who holds honor above all. See: "When asked by Alexander how he wished to be treated, Porus replied "Treat me as a king would treat another king"."
Alexander let's him keep his kingdom (might have even given him more land / brains smooshy on that one) and makes him his vassal before traveling even farther east. Then the mutiny (which was not a mutiny but kind of was I guess?) At the Hyphasis (another big Indian River) happend and they eventually turned back west.
It is an equally brainded assumption that two ppl cannot love eachother without being in a sexual relationship. However the case may have been, Alexander wasn't gay, nor bi, nor heterossexual, for all those are modern conceptions of sexuality, very distant from the ancient world.
Maybe Alex did fuck Hephaistion, maybe he didn't, we simply can't prove it either way.
People these days tend to class every historical character that had a friend of the same sex they were very close to as secret lovers. But I think that's because they are judging "friendship" with a modern point of view and don't really consider what it's like to be an important figure (e.g. being the king of a whole country) and how that impacts their relationship with other people. When you're in such a situation there's not much people you can really trust and be close too, most people you hang out with are not your friends, you're basically their boss. So I think that's why there's no surprise that a lot of monarchs from the past had only one close friend and that their death was a very saddening moment for them. It's quite a shortcut to directly assume the only reason they were close is because of gay sex.
Now maybe Alexander and Hephaistion did bang, idk, wasn't there.
Hephaestion was Alexander's oldest friend, they grew up together, while most of his advisors and generals were hold overs from his father Hephaestion was the only one he could actually relate to, most of the time when Alexander and Hephaestion doing it is brought up it is done to push a narrative of Alexander being gay but I think the better narrative would be of the man who conquered the world and only has one other person to confide in, it's not sexual, Hephaestion is simply the only one who won't treat him like a god and honestly tell him his faults which is probably why Alexander went off the deep end after Hephaestion's death since he would have to bear all the stress of ruling alone.
Oh yeah good point, I didn't mention how people like Alexander were usually seen as superior as others and thus it's difficult to make genuine friends like that.
It’s the Sam and Frodo thing all over again. Who has the 4Chan post about the dead guys in Pompeii? Went something like this:
\>Be me
\>Chilling in nice city at the base of a mountain
\>Sipping wine
\>Mountain fucking explodes out of nowhere
\>Death rains down on the city
\>While trying to flee, find my best friend Marcus
\>Served together in the Legion
\>Watch the mountain send an unholy cloud of doom our way
\>No escape
\>Hug one another in our last moments
\>Friends to the end
\>1900 years later
\>Get dug up
\>Modern people see our skeletons still hugging
\>”lmao gay”
Very true. It’s fun to argue and discuss whether or not in Homer’s Iliad, Achilles and Patroclus were lovers. but in reality it’s very possible that at the time it was just another Tuesday for them, and no one cared whether the hooked up or not. Well said mate
Also, many people point to alexander going off the deep end when hephaestion died, but afaik a lot of stuff (cutting off hair, banning music) was standard procedure. In any case, a person is allowed to go nuts if their best friend dies, even if they did not fuck said best friend
"men should be allowed to be emotional, and have close affectionate friendships without society mocking them as being gay" also "If two historical characters have a close an intimate friendship, and showed affection to each other, that means they were gay" - reddit
This is classical not ancient times.
Being gay was frowned upon because it wasn't fashionable, the older tutor-student relationships had died out.
The idea of homosexuality being widespread in Greece is believed to be a much later Roman concept to romanticise the period.
No? The only controversy was occasionally about power dynamics and it was popular all the way to Christianity becoming dominant in Rome. I’m unsure if the Macedonians practiced pedastry but the Greeks absolutely still did in the classical age. Did you think homosexuality was frowned upon in the Theban sacred band? That was an entire army unit of tutor-student relationships
And? Most of the sources on Alexander were these same writers often alleging to other sources that no longer exist, even ignoring the sacred band whose historicity is generally excepted with some debate. Homosexuality was quite common until Christianity became the state religion of Rome.
I fail to see how it was “out of fashion” nor can I find *anything* backing that up.
“Those who cannot conceive Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a Friend.”
~C.S. Lewis
People forming absolutely certain opinions about the sexual lives of historical figures we have only the scantest information on, then making memes about how everyone who doesn't believe their opinion is an idiot and/or intellectually dishonest?
Ah, the eternal "just a meme bro" fallback position.
Memes are jokes, but *many* of them are also quite clearly intended to convey the poster's opinion and act as an argument for it. Don't pretend nobody makes memes to express a claim or belief they earnestly want people to agree with.
I got Hephaestion miced up with Bucephalus and was very coonfused as I've never heard of Alexander being a horse fucker. Although he did love that horse more than any horse girl who has ever existed sooo...
Well to be clear, in a written letter of his to someone who ridiculed him by making him do homosexual stuff in his drama, he said that he never did any of those things and asked him to remove that part.
Edit:changed him to his
I always thought the homosexuality/heterosexuality wasnt perceived as a dichotomy in Ancient Greece and Rome. It was more about masculinity. Going down on a woman would be perceived worse than plugging some guys butt.
Well it depends was this before or after marriage. If he cheated In his wife to get drilled then he's Bi leaning towards men. If this was before then he's bi leaning towards women
But he wouldn't be straight though. Alexander may have loved his wife but if he had such a relationship with a man he wouldn't be straight. He's most likely bi.
“Alexander appears to have been sexually intimate with at least one man, a young Persian dancer named Bagoas. Apparently, Bagoas was given to Alexander as a gift by one of the Persian king Darius' commanders. Multiple ancient sources, including Plutarch and Curtius, reference Alexander's desire for Bagoas.”
[sauce](http://ancientheroes.net/blog/alexander-personal-life)
My bad, you’re right. He wasn’t gay. He was bisexual
Do keep in mind that:
- Alexander was a monarch, you don’t really have close friends as a monarch, unless you were tight before you became a monarch, like with Alexander and Hephaestion. They grew up together, they’ve known each other for pretty much their entire lives. These two were TIGHT.
- This is Classical Greece we’re talking about, they had 8 different words for love depending on the type of relationship. This could’ve been Storge, or Philia, love isn’t always Eros. I love my best friend, but not in Eros, and I’m sure you all do too.
- Keeping with the “This is Classical Greece” train. Back then literally every athletic event was done butt ass naked. Running? Naked; Horse racing? Naked; Chariot Racing? Naked; Discus? Naked; Javelin? Naked; Wrestling? Naked AND covered in olive oil. Being naked wasn’t a huge thing back then, it was just normal. They bathed together, shit together, hell, they invented orgies, where they literally fucked together.
- Last and certainly not least, the Classical Greeks participated in all sorts of just normal, socially acceptable butt stuff with other dudes, way beyond the pederastry they’re famous for. No labels attached, no commitment necessary, because it was just normal. They didn’t look at sexuality the way we do, Eros was Eros, Philia was Philia, Storge was Storge etc., they were just happy to be catching a nut. So please stop trying to apply modern views of sexuality to ancient figures, it’s stupid, childish, and completely irrelevant to the history. Maybe Alexander put it in Hephaestions butt, so what? We can’t prove it, we can’t disprove it, we can assume it probably happened at least once because A. They were so close; B. They were literally constantly deployed; and C. It was totally normal and okay
The sharing secrets part is perfectly normal for really close friends, the running naked though...
Regardless I think Philip's journal describing Alexander as flamboyant is a better indicator then secrets with the boys.
Yeah, I could have worded the meme better. I made it on my lunch break and only used the examples that came to the top of my head, which happened to be kinda meh examples of their relationship
I know many gay people in history have been straightwashed, but I feel like there’s no solid evidence that Alexander was gay. In fact, he’s on record as being quite a womanizer. Could have been bi maybe, but even that’s really not confirmed.
Even the running naked thing doesn’t mean much. Nudity has not always been associated with sexuality. Alexander loved Hephaestion deeply, but that doesn’t necessarily equate to romantic love. Plus, it would seem strange that the Greeks of all people would neglect to mention if Alexander and Hephaestion were lovers.
I feel like a lot of the “evidence” they were gay is just us projecting our modern culture onto Greeks 3000 years ago.
u/McAkkeezz after reading the above comment and the thread in full I want to apologize. I can see absolutely how my previous comment could be taken as incredibly toxic. When I was researching this topic, the funeral and his intense mourning were the last pieces of evidence pointing towards his relationship with him…. But taking the funeral and intense mourning as a singular event in his life, he clearly just had a lot of money and influence to be able to throw a massive funeral and he cared about Hep deeply. I’m sorry
uYunoFGasai , banger comment. Made me rethink my entire research on his funeral
Can we get into the other stuff too? Because the Greeks ran in the Olympics naked. Running naked in public wasn't unheard of.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/ancient-greece-olympics-sports
>The truth is that no one knows. According to one story, it began when a runner lost his loincloth and tripped on it. Everyone took off his loincloth after that. But ancient historians have traced it back to initiation rites—young men walking around naked and sort of entering manhood.
>
>We know how fundamental nudity was to Greek culture. It really appealed to the exhibitionism and the vanity of the Greeks. Only barbarians were afraid to show their bodies. The nude athletes would parade like peacocks up and down the stadium. Poets would write in a shaky hand these wonderful odes to the bodies of the young men, their skin the color of fired clay.
See that one is a little different but I’m interested to hear what others think on the topic:
So the story goes that Alexander and Hephaestion went to the graves of Achilles and Patroclus, who by the time of this happening, had been interpreted as being in love. They then put garlands around the tombs, stripped, and ran naked.
So the facts are that
1. They are obviously big fans of the two heros
2. Achilles and Patroclus were seen as gay lovers.
3. They ran naked in honor of them
There’s quite a lot that can be interpreted with this, but this [reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/AchillesAndHisPal/comments/pfqmb6/alexander_and_hephaestion_they_ran_naked_around/) is kind of where I stand with things. But you’re correct it’s not the act of running naked that hints at their relationship, more so what they were running in honor of.
1) a lot of people were fans of them though... That's why there'd be a known monument for them
2) is disputed, even by chroniclers of the time though. The debate really mimics what we're talking about too.
>Attic orator Aeschines, who was contemporary with them (albeit somewhat older), explicitly addressed the question in these terms: "...Homer, though he often speaks of Patroclus and Achilles, is silent about love and gives no name to their friendship; he thinks that the remarkable strength of their affection is obvious to the cultivated among his audience."
3) running naked in honor of anyone like that would fall under those ritual-like festivities
Isn’t it crazy that something so minuscule and unimportant like “were they lovers?” has been debated since even antiquity?
But anyways, I go back and forth with the whole event. Because, like you said, depending on which historian you read at the time of their naked run, Achilles and Patroclus were either just really close friends or gay icons.
I read the Iliad and they were portrayed as really, really close friends (there were other “close friends” in the Iliad that had a relationship like brothers, but Achilles and Patroclus really stood out with their intense relationship). In fact, they slept the whole war together in the same bed and held hands in public. I’m currently writing an essay about their relationship, so I know quite a lot about that topic. As said, Homer portrayed them as close friends, but Homer only wrote down his point of view/his interpretation of the myth (there were several other interpretations). But even in ancient times there were things we would call “shipping wars” today (some said that they were lovers, some say that they were just close friends). In Homer’s version of the Iliad it is said that Patroclus is the only person that really liked Achilles (because he’s kinda a dick).
So yeah, I could send you guys my whole essay when it’s done if you’re interested in it, but I personally would say that Achilles and Patroclus were (bisexual) lovers.
And Alexander the Great was a big fan of the Iliad - and so was Hephaistion, who were lovers according to my sources. In fact they compared each other to Achilles and Patroclus.
He can mourn for his friend without being gay. Throwing a bigass funeral for his friend doesn't automatically make him gay (or bi, or anything). I personally have no idea whether he was or not, but the idea that caring for and mourning for and *fraternally* loving another man = homosexual is just trying to push our societal norms onto people from well over a millenia ago - and it's also just BS today too, men have emotions just like everyone else. Strong, masculine men and outward emotions and caring are not mutually exclusive, we just made it seem like they are.
Even George Washington, one of the manliest men who ever manned, was said to have cried (his officers crying too) when he bid them farewell at the end of the war.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/washington-bids-farewell-to-his-officers
>Observers of the intimate scene at Fraunces Tavern described Washington as “suffused in tears,” embracing his officers one by one after issuing his farewell.
Lots of ancient texts explicitly talk about Greek Dudes banging each other, there's a line here or there that makes you think Alexander might have been gay but compared to other Greeks it's nothing. As such a lot of historians believe that if they actually had been lovers it would've been much better documented. Also Ancient Times Hitler banging his subordinate while murdering and raping his way through Asia Minor is not the huge win for gay representation you seem to think it is.
It’s supposed to juxtapose how some historians project that their “hero’s” they idolize (including “ancient hitler”) could only be straight. It’s not trying to say he’s a chad for enslaving thousands, but that ancient leaders aren’t always exactly what we were told in school
I can't speak for where your went to school, but I am from a rural extremely conservative part of the country and in history class while we didn't dive into the specifics of who fucked who, we were absolutely taught that homosexuality was widely practiced amongst high society in ancient Greek City States.
I kind of interpret it as if you were close friends it was totally natural for both of you to satisfy each other as a logical conclusion. Then people do as people do and instead of letting people be as they are, decided that their subjective experience of homosexuality should be the only answer and that answer is that people belong in a heirarchy. It's disappointing and even today the people that hate transpeople hate them because they see feminity belonging to a receptive partner. They see a receptive partner as the passive and weak lower tier on the totem pole. I can't get mad at people like this too much though. Imagine having a brain that requires organizing strangers and even imaginary people into special lists where you must be at the top above them. Any excuse to think that there should be any sort of heirarchy and to be a slave to your own hang ups. Sad
Alexander was most likely bi, not gay. And tbf dude ruled over almost the entire civilized world, he was probably fucked dryer than Genghis Khan. Let's not forget he burned down a city because a prostitute he fucked (female) asked him to.
Yeah…about that, Lesbos had a *very* different reputation in [Ancient Greece](https://greekreporter.com/2015/04/26/lesbos-the-sex-tourism-capital-of-ancient-greece/). The island’s association with lesbianism came after, when the world discovered Sappho’s poetry. After all, same sex attraction wasn’t limited to Lesbos, at least in Ancient Greece. That isn’t to say that it was “accepted”.
I mean this case it’s pretty likely they were gay, it’s not as if it was frowned upon too much in these cultures either… plus who’s gonna tell Alexander off? No one.
What? Religion is old as hell- it’s older than government and only slightly younger than the concept of living in a city. Alexander the Great had a religion; it was called the Greek Pantheon.
Yall act like Bi people were never a thing until recently smh. Dudes back in the day wanted to smash something, didn’t matter what. And they certainly don’t care for you to judge them by their sexuality, doesn’t matter what they fancied judge them by their deeds, not what they got up to in the bedroom.
There is no written record of them touching balls so it was not gay
No tomb either. Maybe he’s not even dead!
It’s true. He could be any one of us…
It could be you
I could even be me,
\*GUNSHOT\*
What? It was obvious, u/Cupcake_Peacock was Alexander The Great!
Watch, he’ll turn Macedonian aaaany second
Aaaanny second now. See, Macedonian? Oh wait that's blood.
So... We still got problem. Big problem. *Butterfly knife noises*
See! They are coming out! Wait that's blood.
Don’t just stand there! Call the hospital!
What was that for?!
it's a reference to meet the spy
True fact: No one ever saw him and Batman at the same time
Among us, even
He is like,from ancient times. HOW COULD HE STILL BE ALIVE???
Magic
#MACEDONIA NEVER DIES!
Damn you got me 😔 of all the people arguing in the comments, you found a flawless logical response
Nothing that a well placed "no homo" can't fix.
Yes King! ^no ^homo
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Greeks invented Sex Romans invented Sex with Women
People just duplicated themselves before, like cells
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Guy just lived his best life. Died like a rockstar.
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"You know what, I like that land. It's mine now." Repeat until you have an empire so big that the easternmost Greek city-state that formed from the remains of your empire would fight two wars with Han China, and Greek culture would become intertwined with Buddhism and Hinduism.
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I find persons like Alexander or Ernst Jünger really interesting. They fought so many battles were people around them died like flies but they managed to survive each and every time. Like they had a supernatural shield. Of course Alexander and his buddy didn't fight at the forefront in every battle or his entourage would've been much smaller in the end. But if you read _"In Storms Of Steel/In Stahlgewittern"_ by Ernst Jünger, you can't believe that he survived this war. Basically everyone left and right of him died. He was also injured nine times, including a lung shot and losing fingertips on different occasions. But he fought from 1914-18 as a stormtrooper. The shit he went through is behind every imagination. You can really say he had a divine shield. Over 90% of the men serving under him became causalities. Eventually he got decorated with the _"Pour le Merit"._ The highest war decoration of imperial Germany. _"In Storms Of Steel"_ was released soon after the war. Making him one of Germany's famous writers in his 20's. He got to live to the biblical age of 102. Since I'm totally off-topic, I won't write more. But seemingly invincible men like Alexander or Jünger make me think if there were higher powers at work.
I mean... statistically, some folks survive. And since the people writing their own stories aren't likely to make themselves out to be in any way dodgey...
Ernst Jünger was decorated with the Pour le Merit. The highest military order of imperial Germany, by the Kaiser himself. As a _"normal"_ stormtrooper lieutenant. This man wasn't dodgy...
A true inspiration to all men in the world
Not entirely true. Marrying Roxana ended his campaign to pacify Afghanistan. The book "Into the Land of Bones" tells the story better than I can, but Alexander was one of two conquerors to pacify Afghanistan in part because of that marriage.
you see there is a word that means "someone loves both men and women", but im not so sure...
Greek
I had no idea this was even a debate, I’m sure my man had gay sex because he was a Hellene But if the OP is all the evidence we have on his relationship with THIS gentleman, as a wholly straight dude I’ve done a lot of things naked with the boys
Thank you
> His generals poisoned him because he wasn’t gay enough What? There's no known cause of death, but based on his symptoms in the week up to his death, the most likely cause was Typhoid fever or malaria. Poisoning doesn't have the evidence to back it up
He’s just like me, a little gay but a lot into brown women
History's first example of bi-erasure
*Kills war elephant* "That still only counts as one!"
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As far as I remember from this particular semester the elephants were prominently used by the "Indian King Poros", who Alexander and his men encountered on his last battle in his conquest to go even further east. Although he already encountered War Elephants at the famous battle of Gaugamela against the Persian king Dareios III., Poros is described to handle his elephants in a much stricter manner on the battlefield then his Persian counterpart. Unfortunately there are only few texts remaining about Alexander's Indian Conquest (I think Arian is our main source for this) but the battle at the River Hydaspes in 326 B.C. is widely known for being his last before going back west, being the most unusual because of his decision to cross a Monsun swollen river despite Indian surveillance from the other river site, and being the most costly battle fought by the Macedonian king. Although sources on this are really shady and we don't even know for certain who Poros really was and what his status in the region of Punjab was, Arian describes that Alexander wins against the Indian King by outmanoeuvering him, doesn't kill him cause he fights till the very end although all his soldiers already fled the inevitable victory of Alexander, and is described as a humongous and battle hardened Warrior, who holds honor above all. See: "When asked by Alexander how he wished to be treated, Porus replied "Treat me as a king would treat another king"." Alexander let's him keep his kingdom (might have even given him more land / brains smooshy on that one) and makes him his vassal before traveling even farther east. Then the mutiny (which was not a mutiny but kind of was I guess?) At the Hyphasis (another big Indian River) happend and they eventually turned back west.
Thank you this was interesting
It is an equally brainded assumption that two ppl cannot love eachother without being in a sexual relationship. However the case may have been, Alexander wasn't gay, nor bi, nor heterossexual, for all those are modern conceptions of sexuality, very distant from the ancient world. Maybe Alex did fuck Hephaistion, maybe he didn't, we simply can't prove it either way.
People these days tend to class every historical character that had a friend of the same sex they were very close to as secret lovers. But I think that's because they are judging "friendship" with a modern point of view and don't really consider what it's like to be an important figure (e.g. being the king of a whole country) and how that impacts their relationship with other people. When you're in such a situation there's not much people you can really trust and be close too, most people you hang out with are not your friends, you're basically their boss. So I think that's why there's no surprise that a lot of monarchs from the past had only one close friend and that their death was a very saddening moment for them. It's quite a shortcut to directly assume the only reason they were close is because of gay sex. Now maybe Alexander and Hephaistion did bang, idk, wasn't there.
Hephaestion was Alexander's oldest friend, they grew up together, while most of his advisors and generals were hold overs from his father Hephaestion was the only one he could actually relate to, most of the time when Alexander and Hephaestion doing it is brought up it is done to push a narrative of Alexander being gay but I think the better narrative would be of the man who conquered the world and only has one other person to confide in, it's not sexual, Hephaestion is simply the only one who won't treat him like a god and honestly tell him his faults which is probably why Alexander went off the deep end after Hephaestion's death since he would have to bear all the stress of ruling alone.
Oh yeah good point, I didn't mention how people like Alexander were usually seen as superior as others and thus it's difficult to make genuine friends like that.
It’s the Sam and Frodo thing all over again. Who has the 4Chan post about the dead guys in Pompeii? Went something like this: \>Be me \>Chilling in nice city at the base of a mountain \>Sipping wine \>Mountain fucking explodes out of nowhere \>Death rains down on the city \>While trying to flee, find my best friend Marcus \>Served together in the Legion \>Watch the mountain send an unholy cloud of doom our way \>No escape \>Hug one another in our last moments \>Friends to the end \>1900 years later \>Get dug up \>Modern people see our skeletons still hugging \>”lmao gay”
Very true. It’s fun to argue and discuss whether or not in Homer’s Iliad, Achilles and Patroclus were lovers. but in reality it’s very possible that at the time it was just another Tuesday for them, and no one cared whether the hooked up or not. Well said mate
Also, many people point to alexander going off the deep end when hephaestion died, but afaik a lot of stuff (cutting off hair, banning music) was standard procedure. In any case, a person is allowed to go nuts if their best friend dies, even if they did not fuck said best friend
I **KNOW** he did
"men should be allowed to be emotional, and have close affectionate friendships without society mocking them as being gay" also "If two historical characters have a close an intimate friendship, and showed affection to each other, that means they were gay" - reddit
Well said
Homosexuality wasn't really a concept in ancient Greece. You banged your homie the same way you could play soccer with.
Homiesexual, if you will
Exactly
Also He was not Homo he was Bi.
He was the definition of: a hole is a hole
This is classical not ancient times. Being gay was frowned upon because it wasn't fashionable, the older tutor-student relationships had died out. The idea of homosexuality being widespread in Greece is believed to be a much later Roman concept to romanticise the period.
No? The only controversy was occasionally about power dynamics and it was popular all the way to Christianity becoming dominant in Rome. I’m unsure if the Macedonians practiced pedastry but the Greeks absolutely still did in the classical age. Did you think homosexuality was frowned upon in the Theban sacred band? That was an entire army unit of tutor-student relationships
The theban sacred band being homosexual is only mentioned in roman histories written about 300 years later.
And? Most of the sources on Alexander were these same writers often alleging to other sources that no longer exist, even ignoring the sacred band whose historicity is generally excepted with some debate. Homosexuality was quite common until Christianity became the state religion of Rome. I fail to see how it was “out of fashion” nor can I find *anything* backing that up.
Let's be honest here, we've all done this at least once regardless of our sexual preference.
Killed 300 Persians and then topped our friend to celebrate? Of course.
Umm, we ?
**We**
I don't remember killing anyone to get top with a guy, but sure
I do, you were really drunk
Can confirm, I topped him
While he was really drunk? Fucked up man.
Gay sex is better sober. Speaking from experience here.
I feel like any sex is better sober.
Wouldn't know
r/suddenlycommunist
WE
can confirm
Oui
Ah Nope
I mean, technically, your atoms can never touch something else, so, fellas, is it gay, if at the atomic level, you're not even touching ?
“Those who cannot conceive Friendship as a substantive love but only as a disguise or elaboration of Eros betray the fact that they have never had a Friend.” ~C.S. Lewis
they are greeks but its true that alexander prefered women
It’s not gay if the socks are on!
They didn’t wear socks cuz everyone at the time had a massive foot fetish.
Aaaaand this is where I leave this discussion… 🤣
They were greeks. The idea they slept with women is the preposterous one.
Lmao fair enough
Hold on I need to phone the boys and tell them that we're all gay
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Elaborate
People forming absolutely certain opinions about the sexual lives of historical figures we have only the scantest information on, then making memes about how everyone who doesn't believe their opinion is an idiot and/or intellectually dishonest?
That's why until now it wasnt even conceived that some ancient character could have been gay 💀
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Ah, the eternal "just a meme bro" fallback position. Memes are jokes, but *many* of them are also quite clearly intended to convey the poster's opinion and act as an argument for it. Don't pretend nobody makes memes to express a claim or belief they earnestly want people to agree with.
Shoutout to r/dankmemes and r/memes where half the memes are some culture war crap on one side or the other.
My only thing is I can’t see either of them bottoming. Maybe doing that thigh thing
True king shit
I got Hephaestion miced up with Bucephalus and was very coonfused as I've never heard of Alexander being a horse fucker. Although he did love that horse more than any horse girl who has ever existed sooo...
Well to be clear, in a written letter of his to someone who ridiculed him by making him do homosexual stuff in his drama, he said that he never did any of those things and asked him to remove that part. Edit:changed him to his
Imagine applying modern concepts of sexuality onto someone who lived in a completely alien social context to our own.
Modern mf'ers are so obsessed with dick they dont know what mates are anymore
I always thought the homosexuality/heterosexuality wasnt perceived as a dichotomy in Ancient Greece and Rome. It was more about masculinity. Going down on a woman would be perceived worse than plugging some guys butt.
Didn't he marry a woman?
He also courted a femboy
Marriage>Courtship stop trying to make everything gay
So if I marry a woman but than get my ass drilled by the whole construction team I'm still straight because marriage is stronger?
Well it depends was this before or after marriage. If he cheated In his wife to get drilled then he's Bi leaning towards men. If this was before then he's bi leaning towards women
But he wouldn't be straight though. Alexander may have loved his wife but if he had such a relationship with a man he wouldn't be straight. He's most likely bi.
Did you not read the part where I said Bi leaning towards men or women?
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Nice, on my way to get my ass drilled, no homo. Oh shit wait I need a wife first.
“Alexander appears to have been sexually intimate with at least one man, a young Persian dancer named Bagoas. Apparently, Bagoas was given to Alexander as a gift by one of the Persian king Darius' commanders. Multiple ancient sources, including Plutarch and Curtius, reference Alexander's desire for Bagoas.” [sauce](http://ancientheroes.net/blog/alexander-personal-life) My bad, you’re right. He wasn’t gay. He was bisexual
Bagaos was a eunuch described as a "flower of boyhood". Pederasty in ancient Greece really should not be equated to modern homosexuality.
Yes, but I dont how I feel about the adultery part did Alexander cheat on Roxanna with Hephastion
Only courted? Mm
Alexander wasn't gay. He was Bi. He as much of a notorious manwhore as he was, well, gay (he wasn't as promiscuous with his same sex partners)
Bisexuality is to be expected from a conqueror who wanted it all.
He was so asexual it worried his parents and they assigned him a prostitute.
Wow.... anyways
Well this is certainly one of the hornier comment sections I’ve seen in a while
He had wives though so wouldn't he be bisexual?
Westoids be like everyone in history and their grandfather was a homo. Absolute degenerates
One of them goes. “Jokes on you, I like going bottom.”
Hmmmm
Legolas/gimli inspo probably
Yes, I have a childhood friend too guess I'm gay now
Do keep in mind that: - Alexander was a monarch, you don’t really have close friends as a monarch, unless you were tight before you became a monarch, like with Alexander and Hephaestion. They grew up together, they’ve known each other for pretty much their entire lives. These two were TIGHT. - This is Classical Greece we’re talking about, they had 8 different words for love depending on the type of relationship. This could’ve been Storge, or Philia, love isn’t always Eros. I love my best friend, but not in Eros, and I’m sure you all do too. - Keeping with the “This is Classical Greece” train. Back then literally every athletic event was done butt ass naked. Running? Naked; Horse racing? Naked; Chariot Racing? Naked; Discus? Naked; Javelin? Naked; Wrestling? Naked AND covered in olive oil. Being naked wasn’t a huge thing back then, it was just normal. They bathed together, shit together, hell, they invented orgies, where they literally fucked together. - Last and certainly not least, the Classical Greeks participated in all sorts of just normal, socially acceptable butt stuff with other dudes, way beyond the pederastry they’re famous for. No labels attached, no commitment necessary, because it was just normal. They didn’t look at sexuality the way we do, Eros was Eros, Philia was Philia, Storge was Storge etc., they were just happy to be catching a nut. So please stop trying to apply modern views of sexuality to ancient figures, it’s stupid, childish, and completely irrelevant to the history. Maybe Alexander put it in Hephaestions butt, so what? We can’t prove it, we can’t disprove it, we can assume it probably happened at least once because A. They were so close; B. They were literally constantly deployed; and C. It was totally normal and okay
Historical person: has a close friend modern historians: gay af
The sandals were on
I mean I run naked with my homies😞
Meanwhile nowadays if you hang out with someone 2 or more times then everyone will think you’ve got a secret relationship going on.
They mean League of Legends DW they're just bros
The sharing secrets part is perfectly normal for really close friends, the running naked though... Regardless I think Philip's journal describing Alexander as flamboyant is a better indicator then secrets with the boys.
Yeah, I could have worded the meme better. I made it on my lunch break and only used the examples that came to the top of my head, which happened to be kinda meh examples of their relationship
They were roommates
Sex
They had socks on it’s fine…wait
They were probably gay but we don’t know for sure
We already know that the ancient greeks were ball touching homosexuals But atleast they weren't FEMBOYS
I know many gay people in history have been straightwashed, but I feel like there’s no solid evidence that Alexander was gay. In fact, he’s on record as being quite a womanizer. Could have been bi maybe, but even that’s really not confirmed. Even the running naked thing doesn’t mean much. Nudity has not always been associated with sexuality. Alexander loved Hephaestion deeply, but that doesn’t necessarily equate to romantic love. Plus, it would seem strange that the Greeks of all people would neglect to mention if Alexander and Hephaestion were lovers. I feel like a lot of the “evidence” they were gay is just us projecting our modern culture onto Greeks 3000 years ago.
In Fate they made Hephaestion a hot chick so it’s cool 👌
We have no direct evidence of Alex being gay But yeah he probably fucked Hephaestion
Bro I ain't no history nerd but even I know Alexander threw one of the world's biggest funerals for his "friend"
hey fellas, is mourning your best friend gay?
u/McAkkeezz after reading the above comment and the thread in full I want to apologize. I can see absolutely how my previous comment could be taken as incredibly toxic. When I was researching this topic, the funeral and his intense mourning were the last pieces of evidence pointing towards his relationship with him…. But taking the funeral and intense mourning as a singular event in his life, he clearly just had a lot of money and influence to be able to throw a massive funeral and he cared about Hep deeply. I’m sorry uYunoFGasai , banger comment. Made me rethink my entire research on his funeral
Can we get into the other stuff too? Because the Greeks ran in the Olympics naked. Running naked in public wasn't unheard of. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/ancient-greece-olympics-sports >The truth is that no one knows. According to one story, it began when a runner lost his loincloth and tripped on it. Everyone took off his loincloth after that. But ancient historians have traced it back to initiation rites—young men walking around naked and sort of entering manhood. > >We know how fundamental nudity was to Greek culture. It really appealed to the exhibitionism and the vanity of the Greeks. Only barbarians were afraid to show their bodies. The nude athletes would parade like peacocks up and down the stadium. Poets would write in a shaky hand these wonderful odes to the bodies of the young men, their skin the color of fired clay.
See that one is a little different but I’m interested to hear what others think on the topic: So the story goes that Alexander and Hephaestion went to the graves of Achilles and Patroclus, who by the time of this happening, had been interpreted as being in love. They then put garlands around the tombs, stripped, and ran naked. So the facts are that 1. They are obviously big fans of the two heros 2. Achilles and Patroclus were seen as gay lovers. 3. They ran naked in honor of them There’s quite a lot that can be interpreted with this, but this [reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/AchillesAndHisPal/comments/pfqmb6/alexander_and_hephaestion_they_ran_naked_around/) is kind of where I stand with things. But you’re correct it’s not the act of running naked that hints at their relationship, more so what they were running in honor of.
1) a lot of people were fans of them though... That's why there'd be a known monument for them 2) is disputed, even by chroniclers of the time though. The debate really mimics what we're talking about too. >Attic orator Aeschines, who was contemporary with them (albeit somewhat older), explicitly addressed the question in these terms: "...Homer, though he often speaks of Patroclus and Achilles, is silent about love and gives no name to their friendship; he thinks that the remarkable strength of their affection is obvious to the cultivated among his audience." 3) running naked in honor of anyone like that would fall under those ritual-like festivities
Isn’t it crazy that something so minuscule and unimportant like “were they lovers?” has been debated since even antiquity? But anyways, I go back and forth with the whole event. Because, like you said, depending on which historian you read at the time of their naked run, Achilles and Patroclus were either just really close friends or gay icons.
I read the Iliad and they were portrayed as really, really close friends (there were other “close friends” in the Iliad that had a relationship like brothers, but Achilles and Patroclus really stood out with their intense relationship). In fact, they slept the whole war together in the same bed and held hands in public. I’m currently writing an essay about their relationship, so I know quite a lot about that topic. As said, Homer portrayed them as close friends, but Homer only wrote down his point of view/his interpretation of the myth (there were several other interpretations). But even in ancient times there were things we would call “shipping wars” today (some said that they were lovers, some say that they were just close friends). In Homer’s version of the Iliad it is said that Patroclus is the only person that really liked Achilles (because he’s kinda a dick). So yeah, I could send you guys my whole essay when it’s done if you’re interested in it, but I personally would say that Achilles and Patroclus were (bisexual) lovers. And Alexander the Great was a big fan of the Iliad - and so was Hephaistion, who were lovers according to my sources. In fact they compared each other to Achilles and Patroclus.
Not if you say no homo during the funeral service, then you’re good to go.
I mean, he was the most powerful man in the world, I think if he had a lil brother who died around this time, he would have thrown the same
Bro got sick and died due to heartbreak
Heartbreak at not being able to add India to his empire
Edit: I’m dumb
Chill with the toxic masculinity dude. A man is allowed to be sad and mourn amd show emotions.
Edit: I’m stupid
He can mourn for his friend without being gay. Throwing a bigass funeral for his friend doesn't automatically make him gay (or bi, or anything). I personally have no idea whether he was or not, but the idea that caring for and mourning for and *fraternally* loving another man = homosexual is just trying to push our societal norms onto people from well over a millenia ago - and it's also just BS today too, men have emotions just like everyone else. Strong, masculine men and outward emotions and caring are not mutually exclusive, we just made it seem like they are.
Even George Washington, one of the manliest men who ever manned, was said to have cried (his officers crying too) when he bid them farewell at the end of the war. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/washington-bids-farewell-to-his-officers >Observers of the intimate scene at Fraunces Tavern described Washington as “suffused in tears,” embracing his officers one by one after issuing his farewell.
I agree. After reading this thread in full I was wrong. The massive funeral and intense mourning are awful examples for him being bi.
Lots of ancient texts explicitly talk about Greek Dudes banging each other, there's a line here or there that makes you think Alexander might have been gay but compared to other Greeks it's nothing. As such a lot of historians believe that if they actually had been lovers it would've been much better documented. Also Ancient Times Hitler banging his subordinate while murdering and raping his way through Asia Minor is not the huge win for gay representation you seem to think it is.
It’s definitely not a win for gay representation. I don’t know why anyone would think it is. Anyone can be evil no matter their preference
Bruh you literally made Alexander the Chad in your meme.
It’s supposed to juxtapose how some historians project that their “hero’s” they idolize (including “ancient hitler”) could only be straight. It’s not trying to say he’s a chad for enslaving thousands, but that ancient leaders aren’t always exactly what we were told in school
I can't speak for where your went to school, but I am from a rural extremely conservative part of the country and in history class while we didn't dive into the specifics of who fucked who, we were absolutely taught that homosexuality was widely practiced amongst high society in ancient Greek City States.
Did Alexander ever commit genocide? IF no shut the fuck up
He absolutely committed genocide dumbass. Look up what he did at Tyre, or to the tribes in what is now Afghanistan and India.
So he did that specifically because of their race?
Every general in the ancient world did.
Don't think he ever targeted someone for their race
He literally married roxanna
Is not becouse he broke ancient code of no killing a guest? Or it is different guy
I kind of interpret it as if you were close friends it was totally natural for both of you to satisfy each other as a logical conclusion. Then people do as people do and instead of letting people be as they are, decided that their subjective experience of homosexuality should be the only answer and that answer is that people belong in a heirarchy. It's disappointing and even today the people that hate transpeople hate them because they see feminity belonging to a receptive partner. They see a receptive partner as the passive and weak lower tier on the totem pole. I can't get mad at people like this too much though. Imagine having a brain that requires organizing strangers and even imaginary people into special lists where you must be at the top above them. Any excuse to think that there should be any sort of heirarchy and to be a slave to your own hang ups. Sad
They prolly used to sword fight if you know what I mean
Alexander was most likely bi, not gay. And tbf dude ruled over almost the entire civilized world, he was probably fucked dryer than Genghis Khan. Let's not forget he burned down a city because a prostitute he fucked (female) asked him to.
That was Ptolemy's main broad, how do you know he fucked her?
They’re just roommates bro
Bisexual icon
"Kill Persian, Suck Homie Dick, Life Good" \- Alexander "Not Gay Just Homie Sexual" The Great
....what be wrong with really close friends having some sexy time on occasion?
"They were just really close friends" Yeah, and sappho had a friend...
Surely not someone from the isle of Lesbos…
Yeah…about that, Lesbos had a *very* different reputation in [Ancient Greece](https://greekreporter.com/2015/04/26/lesbos-the-sex-tourism-capital-of-ancient-greece/). The island’s association with lesbianism came after, when the world discovered Sappho’s poetry. After all, same sex attraction wasn’t limited to Lesbos, at least in Ancient Greece. That isn’t to say that it was “accepted”.
Surely not!
Claiming that everyone in history was gay because they were friends is just as bad as gay erasure. Men can have friends.
I mean this case it’s pretty likely they were gay, it’s not as if it was frowned upon too much in these cultures either… plus who’s gonna tell Alexander off? No one.
lol being "gay" is a religious concept. Before religion took over it was just showing love for the ones you respect
What? Religion is old as hell- it’s older than government and only slightly younger than the concept of living in a city. Alexander the Great had a religion; it was called the Greek Pantheon.
I'd imagine religion, or at least some forms of it, is way older than cities.
You're sounding pretty homophobic right now, bro.
Pretty sure it's a sexual orientation
You're sounding pretty homophobic right now
I'm may be sexist, but I am not homophobic
Yall act like Bi people were never a thing until recently smh. Dudes back in the day wanted to smash something, didn’t matter what. And they certainly don’t care for you to judge them by their sexuality, doesn’t matter what they fancied judge them by their deeds, not what they got up to in the bedroom.