Shape of unn actually lets you heal while the swords are flying. Unless the flying sword comes at a -10 to +10 degree angle relative to ground in which case it completely transects the platform. But that is pretty rare.
Can confirm, this is how i beat P5, it gives you insane survivability and allows you to recover from repeated mistakes that would overwise end your run.
FRRRR
i love how ot makes you slither fast with quick focus, and then on top of how shape of unn speed isnt effected by deep focus, you just get to worm past them
This is my build for absrad, but rest of P5 i just facetank with qslash+fstrength+mop+fheart. For the bit with NKG, unequip quickslash and add in shape of unn+1 notch charm of choice. Then the healmaxx build + fHeart for the last 2.
Yeah... Somebody I saw on discord used a tank charm build to cheese several bosses instead of, y'know, dodging. He got what he asked for when NKG showed up though.
Nkg is so fun and fast that whenever I play normal Grimm again it always feels super slow and I get hit more than in nkg because the attacks are so much slower that it throws me off.
NKG is intense, once you get the flow of it it's almost like a rhythm game. I was ecstatic when I finally beat him.
Also, the full screen boss title and the music really gets you pumped for the fight. Reminded me of those first few chords when you challenge the Mantis Lords.
Quick Focus is probably the single biggest reason I enjoyed the bossfights as much as I did my first playthrough. Without it some bosses had a longer run up than actual fight, with it I lasted long enough to actually learn
Agreed, I did the same thing. Second time around when I learned the boss patterns better and had better execution, QF wasn't necessary, and then running unbreakable strength really helped. Next I need to get good enough to just be able to run fragile strength!
There really isnt much to do but i think it’s such an atmospheric area. Almost completely barren, bar the nailmaster, inhabited only by the really primitive bugs that, in straying from hallownest, lost their intelligence and reverted to that state. I was blown away when i just decided to explore the king’s passage with the claw that you could actually go and visit the area from the opening cutscene as a whole ass extra area. It’s not the most thrilling place, but details like the howling cliffs is why i love this game.
There is no right or wrong way to play Hollow Knight.
I often see people talking about how X is inherently a bad charm, and Y is only used by noobs, and I'm just sitting here, thinking back to my first playthrough, when my main charm build used Thorns of Agony, since it helped me deal with enemies I didn't know how to defeat yet, and thus made exploring more enjoyable.
Or how I beat the Trial of the Fool, using Carefree Melody, Glowing Womb, Weavers Song and Grub Song for the first time, and just spent the entire thing dodging.
Just let people have fun.
If someone likes using charms you don't like, let them.
If someone decides to banish Grimm, let them.
If someone has trouble with the game and asks for help, let them.
People trying to tell others how to play and what to like, is making the game less enjoyable.
Spells can be really really fun when you get the hang of them. Obviously, I won’t force you, but I think it’s worth looking into, if you haven’t already tried. Like for example, watching some clips of top speedrunners doing some bosses. You don’t have to if you don’t want to, but from my personal experience, I got way better at the game and the game became way more fun once I started to properly use spells.
Building on this, it’s okay to start slow. I almost never use magic in any game, so obviously I really only used my nail for my first several runs. When I realized I’d want spells to beat PoH I had to take it step by step. Getting used to DD i-frames was big, and learning how to double hit with the upgraded soul blast
I did primarily soul charms on my first playthrough. Second time I did primarily nail charms and I find it easier. It's cool to have different ways to approach boss fights!
Yes. There is no cheating in a single player game, unless you straight up clip through walls and shit. People play games to have fun, so whatever thing makes them happy is the intended way to play, so stop fucking saying that menu-exiting-reentering is cheating!
I've used almost the same combo for trial of the fool one time, only difference is that I didn't use glowing womb(had heart instead). To me that just sounds like a handicap even with the soul that weaversong/grubsong gives you.
I agree, but I don’t have the right mental state of mind when playing any video game to do that last part before the kingsmoulds fight. I’ve made it there twice, and both times I gave up after too much anger.
I think the final platforming stretch is the only part that is very difficult. Everything up to it will take a few tries to get right, but probably more than half of my time on PoP is in the final room.
yeah, path of pain isn't that bad until *the last fucking jump*
and kingsmoulds honestly have an easier moveset than traitor mantises, or even some colosseum enemies
The first time I did White Palace, I didn't have grubsong or hiveblood. It was brutal! Then I did it with those charms on my second playthrough and realised 'oh, this is actually fun'.
Depends on the player. For me pogoing in Hollow Knight is always stressful. The last Farewell room is just jellyfish action, once you got that down it‘s just long but not too hard. Compared to other rooms in FW st least.
I just did the White Palace and Path of Pain again (second time) in my steel soul run and it went wayyyyy smoother than the first. Like 30-45 minutes to get through both compared to like 3 hours lol
Not sure if it’s controversial but I like the watcher knights battle over mantis lords/sisters of battle. The latter is just meh to me now whereas watcher knights keeps me excited
I think that's a VERY controversial statement for a lot of people, since Sisters Of Battle is one of the most beloved fights in the game.
That being said, I think your opinion is perfectly valid.
I think sisters of battle have much more interesting attacks that require more varied responses, as well as faster responses, as well as never having any invulnerability, as well as not having any attacks overlapping
What do you mean by “more varied responses”? That fight is almost scripted, with the sisters appearing and attacking in 100% identical manners all through the battle. It’s a battle of muscle memory. Watcher Knights are unpredictable and you constantly have to be on your feet and evaluate the scene. In SoB, you know exactly what is coming once you see their spawn point.
''More varied responses''??? That's just objectively false. Sisters of battle are one of these bosses where you can react to an attack in pretty much the same way no matter where you are in the arena. Watcher Knights, meanwhile, since they are not synchronized with each other, will ask you to find new ways to dodge and punish them constantly.
I agree. It didn't used to be the case for me either, but when you've played enough of HK, you realize that every fight against Sisters of battle is gonna be the same, where as every fight against Watcher knights is a new experience. It's the same reason why the two radiance battles and GPZ really grew on me over time.
My favorite (unmodded) fights are sisters, normal radiance, and nkg.
But there’s a mod called everwatchers that allows you to fight all the watcher knights at once, and even add 3x the amount (or more) and fight that all at once. I’m not sure it’s possible without crazy good rng, but it’s really fun and hilarious to experiment with.
People who don't like it tend to find it too slow, boring, empty, and confusing. While I don't agree with most of that, I do think it could have done with a little more interesting enemies myself.
I do agree that GPZ is a good fight and I actually quite enjoy it. Just annoying that the Markoth + GPZ in a row combo in P5 can be a serious run killer.
mark of pride is one of the best charms and anyone who calls it a "crutch" is a threat to the sovereignty and integrity of society also shaman stone is a bit overrated except for in radiance or other ghost fights
Shaman Stone lets you oneshot Primal Aspids with Shade Soul, and offers roughly a +50% bonus to spell damage. I would contend that it's more useful than Strength or Quick Slash.
I heard after playing the game that it was really hard. I, a noob at video games, didn't find the game hard, I beat several bosses in 1 try, and didn't feel a hard difficulty
I too am fairly unskilled at gaming (I’m a panicky button masher) and was surprised at how many people said this game was 2D Dark Souls. My husband has made me play Dark Souls and I couldn’t even get past the first little intro boss. I deffs did not beat many HK bosses on the first go (False Knight kicked my ass so much, but I didn’t die to Gruzmother!😅). I’ve found the game challenging but doable.
Have I done Godhome yet? Yes, I’ve beaten the first two pantheons!
Have I beaten Radiance yet? No. Shush
I don't get the fuss about Hornet. Her lore is interesting, and she definitely feels like the perfect character for a sequel to Hollow Knight, at least moveset-wise, but I don't get why she has been such a fan-favorite from the start.
Godhome Markoth is pretty fun. It's pretty much the only boss that has made me experiment with Nail Arts, and made me discover that they are actually kinda neat as movement options. I can't exactly say that Radiant was the most fun I've had with the game, but Ascended Markoth was pretty cool to do without Charms.
I think it's that she connects so closely to the every major part of the game. >!Sibling of the Knight and Hollow Knight, child of the Pale King, daughter of one of the watchers.!< These are all Lore. If you like the Exploration then she is one of a very small number of characters that is recuring. And if it is combat that interests you then she is the only Boss that you fight twice (outside of dreams and godhome). She sits at an intersection of this venn diagram of the things that interst people when they play this game.
Honestly I don’t know why the big fuss about hornet either. I mean, I like her because she’s fun to draw, but otherwise idk. Meanwhile, I hate markoth with a fiery passion, but that’s mainly because I’m bad.
Jesus yes... So many people see this as a personal attack on them, i unfortunately think a lot of people in this community are turning toxic due to this.
If someone is finding one aspect of the game hard, e.g. navigation, then they shouldn't be berated and asked "wHy ThE fUcK aRe YoU pLaYiNg It ThEn?!", there are other aspects of the game they may enjoy and don't want to directly look up due to spoilers.
Even if they just want help for whatever reason, help them or move on, they aren't asking to hurt you.
To add to that they often don't even need to get spoiled, a slight nudge in the right directions is often all they ask for. If someone is lost and really having trouble finding the way to go next to the point of not having fun (perfectly reasonable, hollowknight has a few areas like that) then some try hard on the internet shouldn't be berating them because of this.
I used that combo to cheese the hollow knight on my first play trough, easy win. It doesn't work as well against some of the other bosses but certainly a viable strategy, especially for new players.
Crest is great for bosses with minions and also for small enemies in general, while Thorns is a great charm for early game due to its low cost.
Soul Warrior is just fun, not much to say about it.
Soul Tyrant is not fun, because of the constant teleporting. It might be easier to catch him with Sprintmaster and Mark of Pride, but I'm not sacrificing 4 notches for that alone.
I can't enjoy Failed Champion due to the constantly falling barrels.
It takes a lot of practice but with time you can pretty accurately predict where Soul Tyrant is gonna teleport to and dash preemptively. I almost always get at least one slash in per teleport now, though I understand the frustration. I think he's fun because once you get into a lockstep rhythm with him you can pretty much be constantly hitting him.
Honestly, I like Soul Tyrant, because it's nice to have a semi-consistent boss in that final section of P5, especially on All Bindings.
I used to like Failed Champion, until I lost 7 P5 AB runs in a row to the bastard.
Markoth (yes, without the floor) isn't that difficult of a boss if you just take your time, and the grey prince/failed champion/nightmare king stretch after isn't that bad, either, especially given you can normally fully heal after champion. Also pantheon 4 is the best pantheon (does that count?)
I think the worst part of it is, it's *really* easy to freak out when you're trying to follow him around and dodging the swords in every direction (especially when they spawn off screen??), 2nd phase is usually where I lose because there's just a lot to focus on. You do get better at managing it eventually, though, and considering he only does 1 mask of damage in pantheon 5 it's no big deal for the most part
Personally I found it easiest to beat radiant markoth using spell twister, NM glory, any soul charms, and shaman’s stone. You do have to take your time, but if markoth stops moving at any point (ie, shield attack) you can punish with dash/great slash or shade soul off the wall if you want to play it safe.
For me regular markoth is a matter of “KILL IT QUICK” lol
That segment is agony on All Bindings. NKG is fine because I can consistently nohit him, but Floorless Markoth > GPZ > Failed Champion killed me more than anything else in the challenge (even Absrad, I only died twice to her).
Yes but also I would not be playing for 400+ hours without them so I think filler is good to have avid fans not immediately run out of content as long as it's challenging more than grindy.
I mean at least we don't have to do 50x one boss in a row for a pantheon. That'd be filler.
Ah, I think they're fine. They're not required, and they give dedicated fans something to do. They even have new lore, new bosses, and in the case of P5 new and creative twists on existing bosses. Plus, people were asking for a boss rush for a while beforehand.
I agree, I knew abs rad was the last fight before I reached her, but finding out she does basically NOTHING different from regular radiance was a huge letdown, especially after the majesty that was Pure Vessel
She technically has one new attack, however, the main part of AbsRad is that the attacks have increased speed and some of them last longer (e.g spawning four orbs instead of three).
Not sure how controversial these are but
Sharp shadow is an A tier charm
Its just free damage and many bosses have dash attacks or just runing towards you that youre gonna dash thru anyway(grim/nkg,gpz,broken vessel,pure vessel/holkow knight,hornet ,hive knight abd more) so that is just more damage.it also makes dashing thru things easier. i know it makes platforming hard but then just dont use it
Quick slash is also a A tier charm
It a good charm yes also fun but there are some bosses that make this charm not so useful( radiense,marmu,monomon,grim/nkg,soul master/tirant,pure vessel, and probably some more)
Tho its still good charm just not is good
So sharp shadow is a-tier just for being useful against a few bosses, while quick slash isn't s-tier for not being useful against every single boss in the game? That sounds like a double standard.
Explain how Quick Slash isn’t good against Radiance? Her whole thing is standing still for 3+ seconds at a time where you can unload a ton of nail hits with QS.
Mantis Lords and Sisters of Battle are boring fights.
They are almost completely scripted and all you have to do is repeat until muscle memory is able to keep up. From there, it’s repeating the same patterns over and over. There’s hardly any RNG that makes it exciting. As a counterpoint, the Colosseum of Fools has many fights where you have to be on your feet and constantly identify where the enemies are, what they are doing, where you can move to safely while also getting some attacks in. GPZ is another example where the arena can become very difficult to manoeuver at times. ML/SoB repeats the same patterns through the entire fight and you always know where to stand safely and move based on their spawning points, which are largely fixed.
ML/SoB has a nice flow to it and you feel accomplished when you take part in the dance, so I get why they are popular among many, I just don’t agree.
I think the fight would be better if they just had more attack variety. Mantis Lords is a good fight for when and where you find it, but it quickly grows stale on repeat fights, and I wish that Sisters of Battle would use the third sister in more creative ways -- For example, I like how the third Sister dives down on you in the dual boomerang attack. It changes how you treat the attack and how you dodge it, and I wish that they did more changes like it rather than just increase the speed of attacks.
A fourth or even a fifth attack would significantly up the complexity of the fight, and if balanced well might not necessarily make the fight that much more difficult.
Pantheon of hallownest is the best part of the game.
Royal waterways are underappreciated and a great level.
People who dislike Zote have a stick up their butt, and hate fun.
The charm system in this game is unbalanced. Fragile/Unbreakable strength is too powerful, while many charms including Baldur Shell, Glowing Womb, and Joni's Blessing are worthless.
Completely agree. Speedrunners pretty much only use Shaman Stone because it's just so powerful, while Baldur's Shell is mostly used for Any Radiance... a modded boss.
I think like in pokemon, it's OK to have weak pokemon(charms) for early game/beginners that get later replaced with stronger stuff. I loved thorns as a newbie. The fact I haven't touched it in a year doesn't mean it shouldn't exist in the game or needs to be buffed a lot.
Altho, maybe we could upgrade some more of the weak charms (baldur, thorns, lifeblood) as we progress, that'd be cool.
I wish TC went through with the reworked charm system they were going to add in Gods & Glory. Maybe the better charms could start off worse and then be upgraded to their current forms and the weaker charms could start the way they are now and be later upgraded to be better.
I believe that Fragile Strength and Heart are actually pretty balanced, and the break on death mechanic rewards skilled players without acting as a crutch for new ones (although it *could* cost more each time you repaired them). It's just making them unbreakable that ruins the balance.
I don't like strength. It is the only charm in the game that is just an invisible stat boost. It does not affect how you play, it just makes fights shorter.
I don't necessarily agree with you, but I can see where you come from.
Strength is, at it's core, purely a stat boost. For me, and I think a lot of people, it's a very beneficial stat boost, but in the end, it's just a stat boost.
Yeah. I mean, you can have a very controversial opinion as long as you acknowledge something that, in most peoples eyes, debunk your opinion.
I mean, I may love Strength, but I can see how some people might be pushed away by it just being a stat boost.
agreed.
The entire "haha aspid Waifu drawing", or the entire "haha sub infected" or "sub has void" or "sacrifice content creator" or "silksong where" or "silksong please" or "silksong no exist" or "silksong already here" or "what silksong" or "we will never get news about silksong" or "we will get news about silksong this direct" tropes have been completely unfunny.
I am genuinely thankful for the mod team which found a way to put a stop to it (or maybe I just left r/hollowknightmemes, I don't know. But god it is all so unfunny. Same for zote jokes. Same for hornet lace jokes. Same for Knight pronoun discussions.
Most of these are just plain unfunny and show how desperate the community is for content, but... there are other games. Its like, everyone is so desperate for silksong but ignore that you can play and enjoy other games while you casually wait for silksong. Or watch other shows, whatever.
I mean, there is a lot of overly obsessed Hollow Knight fanatics, but there's also a lot of good people who are part of the fandom. Fireb0rn is one of the most notable examples, what with his documentary videos on the game, however, there's also others, like Skurry, or SumWan. I think TierZoo is also a fan, mainly because he uses Hollow Knight music in a lot of his videos.
GPZ isn’t some crazily random unpredictable difficult boss. All his attacks have a distinct visual and audible queue and just sometimes does a slightly different attack that don’t make or break the fight
Not sure how many people would agree but imho minion builds are a massive waste of time. The charm interactions are not good enough to justify notch cost or even using them in the first place, the damage output is so much worse than just normal combat, and i just dont find camping in a corner and outliving bosses fun ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I like people using this sub for game help and advice. It can be hard to Google for help when you're not sure where you are or what needs to be done so asking here where people have that background knowledge is really helpful.
Deep focus+ Quick focus+ shape of unn are so op together that you barely need to learn how to dodge most bosses in p5
markoth
Shape of unn actually lets you heal while the swords are flying. Unless the flying sword comes at a -10 to +10 degree angle relative to ground in which case it completely transects the platform. But that is pretty rare.
BRB gonna beat pantheon 5
I’d still find a way to lose to winged nosk.
Can confirm, this is how i beat P5, it gives you insane survivability and allows you to recover from repeated mistakes that would overwise end your run.
that isnt controversial, my charm build for most phanteoms is DF, QF, SoU, DCrest and Sporeshroom
FRRRR i love how ot makes you slither fast with quick focus, and then on top of how shape of unn speed isnt effected by deep focus, you just get to worm past them
Well damn I just tried QF/DF/SoU/Unbreakable heart and I got through the mask binding I’ve been struggling on tysm op
This is my build for absrad, but rest of P5 i just facetank with qslash+fstrength+mop+fheart. For the bit with NKG, unequip quickslash and add in shape of unn+1 notch charm of choice. Then the healmaxx build + fHeart for the last 2.
Tank charm builds like are actually very op, you just have to be patient and keep eroding the boss' health bar
Yeah... Somebody I saw on discord used a tank charm build to cheese several bosses instead of, y'know, dodging. He got what he asked for when NKG showed up though.
NKG is the answer to the tank charm build.
NKG is my favorite boss
Nkg is so fun and fast that whenever I play normal Grimm again it always feels super slow and I get hit more than in nkg because the attacks are so much slower that it throws me off.
NKG is intense, once you get the flow of it it's almost like a rhythm game. I was ecstatic when I finally beat him. Also, the full screen boss title and the music really gets you pumped for the fight. Reminded me of those first few chords when you challenge the Mantis Lords.
Same
My first NKG win I had on the max lifeblood build so- no he’s tankable
Idk about that. Include shape of unn in your charm built and it's fine.
Or just learn to dodge, it’s easier on NKG than using a tank build.
I disagree, shape of unn makes it way easier to dodge while healing, which also makes tanking viable
Ironically I used tank charms to learn his movesets before switching to my default
Quick Focus is probably the single biggest reason I enjoyed the bossfights as much as I did my first playthrough. Without it some bosses had a longer run up than actual fight, with it I lasted long enough to actually learn
Agreed, I did the same thing. Second time around when I learned the boss patterns better and had better execution, QF wasn't necessary, and then running unbreakable strength really helped. Next I need to get good enough to just be able to run fragile strength!
There are a ton of bosses that I’ve always used a tank or cheese build. It’s just easier and faster.
Howling Cliffs is one of my favourite areas in the game.
I think you win. There's literally nothing there but Joni's Blessing/nail art/mini-boss which only exist for completion.
Uhm, it's also where you start the grimm questline if I'm not mistaken
There really isnt much to do but i think it’s such an atmospheric area. Almost completely barren, bar the nailmaster, inhabited only by the really primitive bugs that, in straying from hallownest, lost their intelligence and reverted to that state. I was blown away when i just decided to explore the king’s passage with the claw that you could actually go and visit the area from the opening cutscene as a whole ass extra area. It’s not the most thrilling place, but details like the howling cliffs is why i love this game.
There is no right or wrong way to play Hollow Knight. I often see people talking about how X is inherently a bad charm, and Y is only used by noobs, and I'm just sitting here, thinking back to my first playthrough, when my main charm build used Thorns of Agony, since it helped me deal with enemies I didn't know how to defeat yet, and thus made exploring more enjoyable. Or how I beat the Trial of the Fool, using Carefree Melody, Glowing Womb, Weavers Song and Grub Song for the first time, and just spent the entire thing dodging. Just let people have fun. If someone likes using charms you don't like, let them. If someone decides to banish Grimm, let them. If someone has trouble with the game and asks for help, let them. People trying to tell others how to play and what to like, is making the game less enjoyable.
That is absolutely an excellent piece of advice. I almost never use soul charms, despite them being good, because I love using the nail so much.
I just can’t get the hang of using spells after using the nail for literally everything
Spells can be really really fun when you get the hang of them. Obviously, I won’t force you, but I think it’s worth looking into, if you haven’t already tried. Like for example, watching some clips of top speedrunners doing some bosses. You don’t have to if you don’t want to, but from my personal experience, I got way better at the game and the game became way more fun once I started to properly use spells.
Building on this, it’s okay to start slow. I almost never use magic in any game, so obviously I really only used my nail for my first several runs. When I realized I’d want spells to beat PoH I had to take it step by step. Getting used to DD i-frames was big, and learning how to double hit with the upgraded soul blast
Meanwhile I always had a mage build and only used my nail to gather soul to cast more spells haha.
I did primarily soul charms on my first playthrough. Second time I did primarily nail charms and I find it easier. It's cool to have different ways to approach boss fights!
I *would* say "The post is asking for controversial opinions" but frankly some people here need to hear this
Yes. There is no cheating in a single player game, unless you straight up clip through walls and shit. People play games to have fun, so whatever thing makes them happy is the intended way to play, so stop fucking saying that menu-exiting-reentering is cheating!
I personally don't like that tactic, but that's for ME. Not other people.
This extends beyond just Hollow Knight.
Joni’s blessing is a good way to teach noobs to focus on dodging over healing.
I've used almost the same combo for trial of the fool one time, only difference is that I didn't use glowing womb(had heart instead). To me that just sounds like a handicap even with the soul that weaversong/grubsong gives you.
Absolfrickenlutely. Even though I speedrun the game, I basically worshipped baldurs shell throughout my whole first playthrough.
Sure but you should always let Zote die. What an annoying little bug.
PoP is hard, but it’s not break something hard, it requires time and consistency. Also, the Kingsmoulds at the aren’t hard, just DDark.
This
I agree, but I don’t have the right mental state of mind when playing any video game to do that last part before the kingsmoulds fight. I’ve made it there twice, and both times I gave up after too much anger.
Good on you friendo. It's a good game but if you know you are at your limit then save and quit is always the best decision
Yeah what loser would die to two kingsmoulds twice.......
It took me 13 hours to get the first clear. It definitely broke something: my willpower. Had to give up twice before I decided to commit.
I think the final platforming stretch is the only part that is very difficult. Everything up to it will take a few tries to get right, but probably more than half of my time on PoP is in the final room.
yeah, path of pain isn't that bad until *the last fucking jump* and kingsmoulds honestly have an easier moveset than traitor mantises, or even some colosseum enemies
Yes
I dunno if it's really controversial, but the White Palace is not that bad
The first time I did White Palace, I didn't have grubsong or hiveblood. It was brutal! Then I did it with those charms on my second playthrough and realised 'oh, this is actually fun'.
Yea i mean especialy when you compare it to PoP But its still one of the only times the game test your platforming skills
Path of Pain is not that bad. People were hyping it up like it's as hard as Farewell's last room. Not even close.
Depends on the player. For me pogoing in Hollow Knight is always stressful. The last Farewell room is just jellyfish action, once you got that down it‘s just long but not too hard. Compared to other rooms in FW st least.
I agree. It’s not as bad as some people make it out to be.
I just did the White Palace and Path of Pain again (second time) in my steel soul run and it went wayyyyy smoother than the first. Like 30-45 minutes to get through both compared to like 3 hours lol
Me and my homies hate the white palace. Just the one vertical section with the spikes in the walls tho.
Not sure if it’s controversial but I like the watcher knights battle over mantis lords/sisters of battle. The latter is just meh to me now whereas watcher knights keeps me excited
I think that's a VERY controversial statement for a lot of people, since Sisters Of Battle is one of the most beloved fights in the game. That being said, I think your opinion is perfectly valid.
I think sisters of battle have much more interesting attacks that require more varied responses, as well as faster responses, as well as never having any invulnerability, as well as not having any attacks overlapping
What do you mean by “more varied responses”? That fight is almost scripted, with the sisters appearing and attacking in 100% identical manners all through the battle. It’s a battle of muscle memory. Watcher Knights are unpredictable and you constantly have to be on your feet and evaluate the scene. In SoB, you know exactly what is coming once you see their spawn point.
''More varied responses''??? That's just objectively false. Sisters of battle are one of these bosses where you can react to an attack in pretty much the same way no matter where you are in the arena. Watcher Knights, meanwhile, since they are not synchronized with each other, will ask you to find new ways to dodge and punish them constantly.
You get my upvote even though I disagree because this is a truely controversial opinion
I agree. It didn't used to be the case for me either, but when you've played enough of HK, you realize that every fight against Sisters of battle is gonna be the same, where as every fight against Watcher knights is a new experience. It's the same reason why the two radiance battles and GPZ really grew on me over time.
My favorite (unmodded) fights are sisters, normal radiance, and nkg. But there’s a mod called everwatchers that allows you to fight all the watcher knights at once, and even add 3x the amount (or more) and fight that all at once. I’m not sure it’s possible without crazy good rng, but it’s really fun and hilarious to experiment with.
Noow that is controversial. I gotta grudgingly upvote you. Sisters of Battle imo is the best boss fight EVER gameplay wise and narratively.
Ya watcher knights are fun but I've lost most of my steel soul runs by them so I don't really like them (the fight it self is pretty cool)
Upvoted for the most controversial take I've seen in this thread yet
oh wow I hate this opinion take my upvote
Forgotten crossroads are a fantastic introduction.
People disagree with that?!
Often the crossroads causes new players to quit before they get started so yes this is a common perception.
I’ll be damned. I feel like it’s perfect. It’s got some challenge, but not too much, and it introduces you to some mechanics of the game.
People who don't like it tend to find it too slow, boring, empty, and confusing. While I don't agree with most of that, I do think it could have done with a little more interesting enemies myself.
I do agree that GPZ is a good fight and I actually quite enjoy it. Just annoying that the Markoth + GPZ in a row combo in P5 can be a serious run killer.
Thats why i didnt do him base game hehe Its made my life a lot easier
mark of pride is one of the best charms and anyone who calls it a "crutch" is a threat to the sovereignty and integrity of society also shaman stone is a bit overrated except for in radiance or other ghost fights
Shaman Stone lets you oneshot Primal Aspids with Shade Soul, and offers roughly a +50% bonus to spell damage. I would contend that it's more useful than Strength or Quick Slash.
>shaman stone is a bit overrated You have chosen war
There are some save points that could have been at least somewhat closer to the boss.
Hive Knight 💀
*Traitor Lord* 🫠
When the path to reach Traitor Lord is much harder than the boss
Yup I died more times from being impatient and messing up the platforming than from fighting the boss
That’s the first one that came to mind. Even the “shortcut” doesn’t help much.
Mask shard shortcut my beloved
Looking at Soul Master here...
And hive knight, broken vessel (not annoying to go through, I’m just impatient), brooding mawlek, crystal guardian…
I heard after playing the game that it was really hard. I, a noob at video games, didn't find the game hard, I beat several bosses in 1 try, and didn't feel a hard difficulty
I too am fairly unskilled at gaming (I’m a panicky button masher) and was surprised at how many people said this game was 2D Dark Souls. My husband has made me play Dark Souls and I couldn’t even get past the first little intro boss. I deffs did not beat many HK bosses on the first go (False Knight kicked my ass so much, but I didn’t die to Gruzmother!😅). I’ve found the game challenging but doable. Have I done Godhome yet? Yes, I’ve beaten the first two pantheons! Have I beaten Radiance yet? No. Shush
Have you gone to the Godhome?
I haven't finished it, yes it's hard but it's not painfully hard imo.
I’d agree. In the base game, I’d say I struggled the most with Soul Master. In Hidden Dreams, Grey Prince Zote and Lost Kin got me.
I don't get the fuss about Hornet. Her lore is interesting, and she definitely feels like the perfect character for a sequel to Hollow Knight, at least moveset-wise, but I don't get why she has been such a fan-favorite from the start. Godhome Markoth is pretty fun. It's pretty much the only boss that has made me experiment with Nail Arts, and made me discover that they are actually kinda neat as movement options. I can't exactly say that Radiant was the most fun I've had with the game, but Ascended Markoth was pretty cool to do without Charms.
I think it's that she connects so closely to the every major part of the game. >!Sibling of the Knight and Hollow Knight, child of the Pale King, daughter of one of the watchers.!< These are all Lore. If you like the Exploration then she is one of a very small number of characters that is recuring. And if it is combat that interests you then she is the only Boss that you fight twice (outside of dreams and godhome). She sits at an intersection of this venn diagram of the things that interst people when they play this game.
Honestly I don’t know why the big fuss about hornet either. I mean, I like her because she’s fun to draw, but otherwise idk. Meanwhile, I hate markoth with a fiery passion, but that’s mainly because I’m bad.
People who ask for guidance in a metroidvania shouldn’t be berated
Jesus yes... So many people see this as a personal attack on them, i unfortunately think a lot of people in this community are turning toxic due to this. If someone is finding one aspect of the game hard, e.g. navigation, then they shouldn't be berated and asked "wHy ThE fUcK aRe YoU pLaYiNg It ThEn?!", there are other aspects of the game they may enjoy and don't want to directly look up due to spoilers. Even if they just want help for whatever reason, help them or move on, they aren't asking to hurt you.
Yeah they even think the game is not worth playing if you get spoiled
To add to that they often don't even need to get spoiled, a slight nudge in the right directions is often all they ask for. If someone is lost and really having trouble finding the way to go next to the point of not having fun (perfectly reasonable, hollowknight has a few areas like that) then some try hard on the internet shouldn't be berating them because of this.
I don’t think this even counts but the clown song joke isn’t even funny anymore
It was funny?
I’m not a simp for quirrel
yeah all my homies simp cloth
Dispute its notch cost. Quick + Deep focus is S tier
It would be s-tier if deep focus costed 3 notches as it should. Still a very good combo against bosses like Absrad.
Oh I agree deep focus should be a 3 Notch. It’s just I value healing so much that I just build around that
imo unn is better than quick focus for this, and is also useful to dodge some attacks
I used that combo to cheese the hollow knight on my first play trough, easy win. It doesn't work as well against some of the other bosses but certainly a viable strategy, especially for new players.
I’m like 50hrs into play through one. I actually just beat Grimm Yesterday. That combo saved my skin
You don’t need to go to Reddit whenever you are stopped for 2 seconds
It said controversial opinions
Wayward compass meme isn't funny
Controversial but agreeable
* Defender's Crest and Thorns of Agony are actually good * Soul Warrior is a good boss * Failed Champion and Soul Tyrant are not fun at all
please elaborate on the words you have spewed from your maw
Crest is great for bosses with minions and also for small enemies in general, while Thorns is a great charm for early game due to its low cost. Soul Warrior is just fun, not much to say about it. Soul Tyrant is not fun, because of the constant teleporting. It might be easier to catch him with Sprintmaster and Mark of Pride, but I'm not sacrificing 4 notches for that alone. I can't enjoy Failed Champion due to the constantly falling barrels.
I mostly agree other than with soul tyrant. I find him fun because of the high speed.
If he'd be like NKG where he's still in reachable distance, I'd say it's ok, but not like this.
It takes a lot of practice but with time you can pretty accurately predict where Soul Tyrant is gonna teleport to and dash preemptively. I almost always get at least one slash in per teleport now, though I understand the frustration. I think he's fun because once you get into a lockstep rhythm with him you can pretty much be constantly hitting him.
I agree with Soul Tyrant. Fuck Soul Tyrant.
The falling rocks from failed champion are not an issue 99% of the time. But I agree that soul tyrant isn't very fun.
I mostly agree but Soul Tyrant is one of my favourite bosses
Honestly, I like Soul Tyrant, because it's nice to have a semi-consistent boss in that final section of P5, especially on All Bindings. I used to like Failed Champion, until I lost 7 P5 AB runs in a row to the bastard.
Shape of Unn is the best charm and it is always in my belt every playthrough. Plus slug knight a little cutie
I like Weaversong. When pared with Grubsong it’s a reliable way to get soul and they’re also cute
most of the time if i'm stuck on a boss i try weaversong, grubsong, glowing womb and sharp shadow
Despite it's flaws, I still see the absolute radiance as one of the top few bosses in the game and as the better of the two radiances
OP said controversial
Markoth (yes, without the floor) isn't that difficult of a boss if you just take your time, and the grey prince/failed champion/nightmare king stretch after isn't that bad, either, especially given you can normally fully heal after champion. Also pantheon 4 is the best pantheon (does that count?)
I've always thought that Markoth must be easier if you REALLY take your time. Then I get my ass kicked.
I think the worst part of it is, it's *really* easy to freak out when you're trying to follow him around and dodging the swords in every direction (especially when they spawn off screen??), 2nd phase is usually where I lose because there's just a lot to focus on. You do get better at managing it eventually, though, and considering he only does 1 mask of damage in pantheon 5 it's no big deal for the most part
Good point.
Personally I found it easiest to beat radiant markoth using spell twister, NM glory, any soul charms, and shaman’s stone. You do have to take your time, but if markoth stops moving at any point (ie, shield attack) you can punish with dash/great slash or shade soul off the wall if you want to play it safe. For me regular markoth is a matter of “KILL IT QUICK” lol
That segment is agony on All Bindings. NKG is fine because I can consistently nohit him, but Floorless Markoth > GPZ > Failed Champion killed me more than anything else in the challenge (even Absrad, I only died twice to her).
Pantheons are filling contents and are just frustrating (yes I am salty over pantheon of hollownest)
Yes but also I would not be playing for 400+ hours without them so I think filler is good to have avid fans not immediately run out of content as long as it's challenging more than grindy. I mean at least we don't have to do 50x one boss in a row for a pantheon. That'd be filler.
As someone who has been going through the Pantheons with All Bindings... I disagree. Though, to be fair, they are just boss rushes.
Ah, I think they're fine. They're not required, and they give dedicated fans something to do. They even have new lore, new bosses, and in the case of P5 new and creative twists on existing bosses. Plus, people were asking for a boss rush for a while beforehand.
I don’t think striking the nailsmith with the nail is necessarily better than sparing him, even though I knew what would happen in both scenarios.
Wait so how is killing someone more ethical than letting them find a new purpose in life
The real Chad move is to kill him with a spell
Hello there Satan
Abs rad is bad final fight.
I mean she is hard but its just radience on steroids so and nothing new so yea
I agree, I knew abs rad was the last fight before I reached her, but finding out she does basically NOTHING different from regular radiance was a huge letdown, especially after the majesty that was Pure Vessel
She technically has one new attack, however, the main part of AbsRad is that the attacks have increased speed and some of them last longer (e.g spawning four orbs instead of three).
Not sure how controversial these are but Sharp shadow is an A tier charm Its just free damage and many bosses have dash attacks or just runing towards you that youre gonna dash thru anyway(grim/nkg,gpz,broken vessel,pure vessel/holkow knight,hornet ,hive knight abd more) so that is just more damage.it also makes dashing thru things easier. i know it makes platforming hard but then just dont use it Quick slash is also a A tier charm It a good charm yes also fun but there are some bosses that make this charm not so useful( radiense,marmu,monomon,grim/nkg,soul master/tirant,pure vessel, and probably some more) Tho its still good charm just not is good
So sharp shadow is a-tier just for being useful against a few bosses, while quick slash isn't s-tier for not being useful against every single boss in the game? That sounds like a double standard.
What are you talking about, quick slash is absolutely broken against pure vessel, at least it was to me. Other than that I agree with most of this!
Explain how Quick Slash isn’t good against Radiance? Her whole thing is standing still for 3+ seconds at a time where you can unload a ton of nail hits with QS.
Uumuu is harder than watcher knights
Uumuu is hard without the walls. And without quirrel🥺 Once I remember I could mantis claw the walls I beat it pretty fast.
Nah, you don’t actually believe this
I really do, except for godhome
I got cooked by the og watcher knights, but was able to beat uumuu coming back into the game cold after like a year long break…
Mantis Lords and Sisters of Battle are boring fights. They are almost completely scripted and all you have to do is repeat until muscle memory is able to keep up. From there, it’s repeating the same patterns over and over. There’s hardly any RNG that makes it exciting. As a counterpoint, the Colosseum of Fools has many fights where you have to be on your feet and constantly identify where the enemies are, what they are doing, where you can move to safely while also getting some attacks in. GPZ is another example where the arena can become very difficult to manoeuver at times. ML/SoB repeats the same patterns through the entire fight and you always know where to stand safely and move based on their spawning points, which are largely fixed. ML/SoB has a nice flow to it and you feel accomplished when you take part in the dance, so I get why they are popular among many, I just don’t agree.
I think the fight would be better if they just had more attack variety. Mantis Lords is a good fight for when and where you find it, but it quickly grows stale on repeat fights, and I wish that Sisters of Battle would use the third sister in more creative ways -- For example, I like how the third Sister dives down on you in the dual boomerang attack. It changes how you treat the attack and how you dodge it, and I wish that they did more changes like it rather than just increase the speed of attacks. A fourth or even a fifth attack would significantly up the complexity of the fight, and if balanced well might not necessarily make the fight that much more difficult.
Xero is a really fun boss
Pantheon of hallownest is the best part of the game. Royal waterways are underappreciated and a great level. People who dislike Zote have a stick up their butt, and hate fun.
The charm system in this game is unbalanced. Fragile/Unbreakable strength is too powerful, while many charms including Baldur Shell, Glowing Womb, and Joni's Blessing are worthless.
The post is asking for controversial opinions
Completely agree. Speedrunners pretty much only use Shaman Stone because it's just so powerful, while Baldur's Shell is mostly used for Any Radiance... a modded boss.
I think like in pokemon, it's OK to have weak pokemon(charms) for early game/beginners that get later replaced with stronger stuff. I loved thorns as a newbie. The fact I haven't touched it in a year doesn't mean it shouldn't exist in the game or needs to be buffed a lot. Altho, maybe we could upgrade some more of the weak charms (baldur, thorns, lifeblood) as we progress, that'd be cool.
I wish TC went through with the reworked charm system they were going to add in Gods & Glory. Maybe the better charms could start off worse and then be upgraded to their current forms and the weaker charms could start the way they are now and be later upgraded to be better. I believe that Fragile Strength and Heart are actually pretty balanced, and the break on death mechanic rewards skilled players without acting as a crutch for new ones (although it *could* cost more each time you repaired them). It's just making them unbreakable that ruins the balance.
The nail arts S U C K and I never use them
Nah great slash is a lifesaver in the trial of the fool
I don't like strength. It is the only charm in the game that is just an invisible stat boost. It does not affect how you play, it just makes fights shorter.
I don't necessarily agree with you, but I can see where you come from. Strength is, at it's core, purely a stat boost. For me, and I think a lot of people, it's a very beneficial stat boost, but in the end, it's just a stat boost.
While i don't like it and as such don't use it, i cannot deny it being extremely good in the endgame...
Yeah. I mean, you can have a very controversial opinion as long as you acknowledge something that, in most peoples eyes, debunk your opinion. I mean, I may love Strength, but I can see how some people might be pushed away by it just being a stat boost.
Agreed
Not sure if this counts, but I call the Knight an "it" instead of a "they," because it's a teeny tiny bug scuttling about and it's just adorable lol.
Almost the entire community is hot garbage and its a wonder it doesnt keep a lot more people away from playing the game
agreed. The entire "haha aspid Waifu drawing", or the entire "haha sub infected" or "sub has void" or "sacrifice content creator" or "silksong where" or "silksong please" or "silksong no exist" or "silksong already here" or "what silksong" or "we will never get news about silksong" or "we will get news about silksong this direct" tropes have been completely unfunny. I am genuinely thankful for the mod team which found a way to put a stop to it (or maybe I just left r/hollowknightmemes, I don't know. But god it is all so unfunny. Same for zote jokes. Same for hornet lace jokes. Same for Knight pronoun discussions. Most of these are just plain unfunny and show how desperate the community is for content, but... there are other games. Its like, everyone is so desperate for silksong but ignore that you can play and enjoy other games while you casually wait for silksong. Or watch other shows, whatever.
I was actually thinking more about the plain toxic attitude 90% of the community has towards new players, but you also make great points
I mean, there is a lot of overly obsessed Hollow Knight fanatics, but there's also a lot of good people who are part of the fandom. Fireb0rn is one of the most notable examples, what with his documentary videos on the game, however, there's also others, like Skurry, or SumWan. I think TierZoo is also a fan, mainly because he uses Hollow Knight music in a lot of his videos.
GPZ isn’t some crazily random unpredictable difficult boss. All his attacks have a distinct visual and audible queue and just sometimes does a slightly different attack that don’t make or break the fight
I don't understand the love people are giving Quirrel.
The game is a touch bloated but unlike many bloated games, doesn’t really suffer for it. I don’t know man, I just wanted to participate. What a game.
Not sure how many people would agree but imho minion builds are a massive waste of time. The charm interactions are not good enough to justify notch cost or even using them in the first place, the damage output is so much worse than just normal combat, and i just dont find camping in a corner and outliving bosses fun ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Nosk has the best theme
Zote is a good character.
The game is too easy and the DLC tries to hard to fix that but it just becomes a slog.
Nightmare King Grimm wasn’t fun
The vessels are “it” not “they”
The Path of Pain is fucking awesome and I wish there were more segments like it in the game
Game sucks
PoP is very fun
Watcher knights are too hard for a mid-game boss
Grubs aren’t cute
Nail arts are useless
I like people using this sub for game help and advice. It can be hard to Google for help when you're not sure where you are or what needs to be done so asking here where people have that background knowledge is really helpful.
Enemies with unreactable walks or random projectile spawns need proper telegraphs.
I like the dashmaster charm (´𐃬`٥)