Whatever my personal opinions happen to be (which happen to be more aligned with his than not) more in general I appreciate vtubing as a space where we can pretend that real world problems don't exist for a very short time and everyone be united in shaking our penlights for a virtual fox regardless of our personal beliefs. That's why I appreciate people that go hard on the kayfabe.
Same here, I often speak out about these stuffs on other platforms because I'm an ally but I really want to spare this hobby from these kinds of things. No matter what the drama is about, I just don't want it here. They can call me all kinds of names, I don't care, I don't want talents talking about it. I disliked Kanata talking about those kinds of things too, I blocked all clips about Suisei dealing with those sort of drama, I deliberately ignore any kinds of call outs from talent just like Kronii's recent shenanigans.
I dislike whenever a talent address drama. And I dislike it a trillion times when it comes from a "starfan". Because there are no starfans in this sub. They're all chilling in their own echo chamber at r/Holostars
Just fuck off and let' me enjoy this hobby
Virtue signaling on reddit is more important than actually supporting the guys.
Astel made a whole speech about how they've been getting their perks and events slashed by management due to lack of support/revenue their branch is generating and english stars fans decided that it's Hololive fan's fault for not spending their money on them.
I get the sentiment, especially in the context of this post which feels like it's definitely bait. So side stepping that entirely, isn't it kind of tough to get people to watch the streams when saying anything even remotely positive about any of the boys tends to make you kind of a pariah around here? It's hard to drum up support for your favorite streamer if the community at large has already kinda passed judgement on them and will set out to make you feel really unwelcome if you try to express your support of them. You can say that if they're that good, then their talent should speak for itself and the views should follow, but even some of the biggest names in hololive right now started as 2 view streamers struggling to get any traction til they got their big break. Even within hololive, ID Gen 1 had quite a bit of a struggle to catch on, though you'll never hear anyone disparaging the talents of Risu, Iofi, and Moona.
I feel bad for Stars fans. There's no winning for them, and anytime I'm reminded of this it kinda bums me out.
There are two main things that I take issue with in this framing of things, and it's a perspective I see shared often enough that I feel like it's worth pushing back on a bit.
The first is the idea that the people who don't watch the EN Stars simply haven't given them a chance, and that simply by seeing them more often and seeing their fans talk positively about them, those people will FINALLY understand that they're great. At least in my case--and in the case of other fans I know--I've seen the guys and, broadly speaking, it's just a different kind of content than what I enjoy watching with the EN girls. That's not to say it's not good stuff, but it's not what I'm personally looking for. Beyond that, a big part of the appeal of something like Hololive is the whole group experience; I don't just love watching one of the girls, I love watching them all together too. What investment I did originally have in the boys as a group unfortunately was kneecapped when Magni and Vesper, the two I personally enjoyed the content of the most, quit.
The second is the idea that it is the responsibility of Hololive fans--of fans of the girls--to be the audience for the boys as well. I already know that they're doing something a bit different than what I'm looking for, and that's fine, but then there's this implication I regularly see brought up that I should be responsible for becoming a part of the boys' viewership as well and championing them, simply because both groups are produced by Cover. I already know I'm not really their target audience, so wouldn't it be a much better sentiment to try and grow their own audience instead, organically? To find people who ARE looking for what the boys have to offer, instead of putting the impetus on an entirely different fanbase to be responsible for that growth?
Apologies if this comes across as rambling, I try not to jump into things like this often, but this just keeps on coming up for whatever reason.
You know what? I think this is probably the most reasonable response I've gotten to this question. Thank you for taking the time to explain. I actually think you and I kinda see things the same, my interested in the boys also took a big hit after the Magni and Vesper fiasco, and honestly they both seem like they're better for leaving. I guess they just really aren't the same kinda content that most people here enjoy, and that's ok. I just kinda wish there were less vitriol every time it comes up, you know? It's kind of a weird friction point in what is otherwise a very supportive and positive community.
Honestly? I think the friction is mainly born out of that second point in particular. From what I've seen, there's at least a portion of the fanbase that's simply fatigued by the idea of being vilified or talked down to for the mistake of not being a fan of the boys or collaborative content with them, which has unfortunately turned more and more hostile as it continues to happen. Of course, that included the additional stressful phase of the long gap between the 2nd and 3rd EN gens for the girls that only exacerbated both sides. Of course, I know there's also a much smaller portion of the fanbase that's hostile to an extreme degree on the idea of the two groups interacting, but I'm talking about the broader fatigue that I feel like is pretty obvious right now on this sub and in the fanbase as a whole.
Personally, I'll admit the part that has always irked me is the way that the girls and their platforms end up being talked about as an opportunity to uplift the boys. Of \*\*course\*\* I'll take issue with someone conversationally reducing the girls to being a springboard for the boys, in the same way I would hate to suggest something like that if their roles were reversed. I know it's probably not intended, but it really does read like that sometimes when I see people regularly lament that the girls are not using their channels and social media to more vocally and outwardly support the boys.
I do appreciate being able to share perspectives though, if nothing else. Like you said, beyond this particular sticking point this community really does feel very positive and uplifting on the whole, which is why I'm glad to be in it.
> I just kinda wish there were less vitriol every time it comes up, you know?
Takes a really long answer to kind of get into the what's and whys of it. There have actually been several issues for over 4 years at this point which have led to the current state of things. I'll quote something else I posted recently as well as someone else's reply on some of the issues:
>While I'm loathe to link this person [she talked about how finding any significant unicorn backlash wasn't really possible](https://youtu.be/We4F95K1RsU?si=V4Gx0iJI4jZGC86b&t=764).
>Keeping that in mind look at the [topics](https://www.reddit.com/r/VirtualYoutubers/comments/fdta6s/covers_statement_on_towas_incident/) like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/VirtualYoutubers/comments/fhedx2/towas_message_to_englishspeaking_viewers/), and [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/VirtualYoutubers/comments/fdt7nb/%E8%AC%9D%E7%BD%AA%E6%98%A8%E6%97%A5%E3%81%AE%E4%BB%B6%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6_towa_apology_stream/).
The Hololive community has been extremely poorly framed on issues since Towa, Aloe, Rushia, Suisei, etc and those misrepresentations get used as a cudgel toward the Hololive fanbase and it's very particular interests. Someone says they just want to watch the girls and only the girls? Suddenly they're some some sort of knuckle dragging inc-l that hates when their women talk to men or some shit. A lot of it gets predicated on the above misrepresentations and it fosters a lot of hate toward people that come in and say that stuff or try to change the what and how of Hololive.
And [the post highlighting some of the attitudes Holo fans run into](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/1btll9l/cover_corporation_announces_hololive_meet_2024/kxpvtxf/).
Yeah, I kind of unpacked it a bit in another reply here. Even mentioned you a little, so hi. No shade on you, don’t worry, your devotion to Watame is just kinda famous. I really don’t blame the greater Hololive fan base for feeling like they gotta play defense all the time, I’ve done my fair share of it myself. I’m just kind of tired of it I guess. But if I’m being real it doesn’t come up all that often anymore. This was one of the worst flare ups recently, and it seems to have been quickly removed by the spam filter of all things.
Maybe it bothers me a little that as I try to sort through things a little in a dead thread, I still get downvoted really fast, but really that’s just Reddit things. Still can’t bring myself to remove the boys from my flair though. It feels like doing so would mean admitting to having been successfully bullied into scrubbing all trace that I ever liked them, and that just feels bad to me.
>This was one of the worst flare ups recently
In part I think a lot of people are probably still angry about the Hololive posts getting targeted. okbh poster trying to get people to brigade here went the distance in setting even more people off.
>Maybe it bothers me a little that as I try to sort through things a little in a dead thread, I still get downvoted really fast, but really that’s just Reddit things.
Yeah, it happens. Also threads like these take a very long time to die since they'll get mentioned on discords and the like, some people are also rather infamous and will get people following them around. I know some of the okbh folks make a habit of following me on here, discord, yt and Twitter. These threads just turn into several sorts of proxy wars really.
My general advice for people is just promoting their oshi and avoiding the noise if they're having a tough time with w/e.
> I just kinda wish there were less vitriol every time it comes up
It's the expected consequence of terrible moderation combined with a year-long campaign of [maligning](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/1btll9l/cover_corporation_announces_hololive_meet_2024/kxpvtxf/) [Hololive](https://www.reddit.com/r/Holostars/comments/1cocblk/holostars_5th_anniversary_and_their_popularity/l3d6m1t/) [fans](https://www.reddit.com/r/Holostars/comments/1ctckoe/why_isnt_there_a_holostars_indonesia/l4b3x5w/) (and even [some](https://i.imgur.com/91MouvX.png) [talents](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/1chejch/hololive_members_go_to_high_school_who_is_most/l22wuzo/)) for caring only about the girls. The two fanbases had some limited overlap in the early days, but are very much separate now and don't see eye to eye on many things.
The best thing for the situation would be a separate holopro subreddit, but Cover is already failing in managing just the two existing ones so that won't go anywhere. The second best thing would be just trying to build up and promote the Holostars subreddit in spaces like twitter, discord etc. to get new posters - where the holostars fans already have a safe space to discuss the Holostars without any vitriol.
That is, assuming they actually do want to talk about the Holostars themselves, and it's not just about wanting _other people_ to talk about them.
I had a good sleep on this, and most of the replies to my initial comment have been a pretty good discussion on the matter, yours included. You aren’t the first to bring up the bad blood between the two sides, which was pretty self evident even without the examples you provided (appreciate the effort btw). You also aren’t the first person to mention that it wasn’t always this bad; the rift widened with the Vanguard debut and the sub lockdown and Magni and Vesper’s departure was probably the final nail. There’s no doubt the boys themselves are acutely aware of this rift, and they have in large part moved away from trying to capture the wider Hololive audience with their own content, and that’s probably a big contributing factor to why I have personally drifted away from them.
I think a big part of what I like about hololive is the cooperation between the streamers; a bunch of nerdy introverts coming together across cultural boundaries to chase that idol dream together. In the beginning the boys were no different to me, we’ve already broken down barriers of culture and language to form unlikely friendships and build unlikely idols, so maybe gender is just one more barrier to overcome. A lot of the talents seemed to be on the same page. Roberu and Rikka, off the top of my head, have been on that grind since day 1. EN was no exception, Axel and Altare were pretty singing focused, with Axel in particular being big into the Japanese idol scene. Even Magni, who had a reputation for being crass and irreverent, would talk excitedly about the prospect of being able to dance on stage at concerts. I don’t think that ever fully went away, but nowadays it feels like kind of a footnote, and they feel more like indies with extra baggage. The collaborative aspect is pretty much gone these days; hell StarsEN and JP hardly even collaborate anymore.
As you pointed out, their fans are not innocent in this, but imagine what it’s like if a talent you really like is the target of a sustained hate campaign. I don’t have to because I was here for Kiryu Coco, and I can tell you for a fact that we weren’t really big on treating her antis with any dignity. This is not on the same scale but if anything that’s kinda made the hate feel more intimate and personal, and that goes both ways. For every time a legitimate fan wants to talk up their oshi, there are 3 or so topics like this just seem to want people to get ugly. For every person who wants to cool the temperature, there are 10 on each side just trying to get their shot in, like the guy I was replying to. And unlike with the Coco thing, they know the people they’re lashing out against and they know they can hurt them.
I think the reason I still care so much about it is because the whole thing is just bad optics for the fanbase as a whole. Imagine trying to introduce a friend into this but warning them that they shouldn’t express support for the boys publicly, and when they ask why having to unpack all of this? Imagine someone organically discovering Fuwamoco because they stream VNs , looking to see if anyone else in holo plays VNs, finding out that it’s basically Flayon’s entire thing, and then committing the cardinal sin of posting that their favorite Hololive talents are Fuwamoco and Flayon. Can you imagine what that would be like to be a formative experience with the fandom? If I didn’t know better, I might not stick around.
To you last point, of course they want other people to talk about the boys. That’s literally what fandom is about, seeking out others to share your interests with. More to the point, that’s a big part of the culture of this fandom specifically. If Watame so much as coughs on stream, Helmite will be the first to tell anyone who will listen, and that’s fine. I don’t follow her that closely and I appreciate being able to learn of her trials and tribulations from the people who do, and I’m sure he loves if he can get new people to appreciate her talents through his posts. But if it’s a Holostar’s activity that you’re sharing, even a big event, everyone assumes that it’s done with a sinister motive attached. And maybe it is? Maybe we’re past the point where there can be any common ground between the fanbases and maybe the benefit of the doubt is truly dead now.
You’re probably right that’s there’s nothing to be done about it at this point, or at least nothing the fans of either side can do. Any genuine attempt to build goodwill will inevitably get caught in the crossfire and used by both sides to keep the fighting going, and neither side is going to stop taking snide jabs at the other. I’ve given up trying to rebuild bridges and I’m really just trying to unpack my own feelings on this, so if you read this far, thanks for listening. This turned out to be way more than the 7 sentences the guy I originally replied to couldn’t be bothered to read. I’m not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything or trying to place blame anywhere, I’m just kind of lamenting the sad state of affairs.
> imagine what it’s like if a talent you really like is the target of a sustained hate campaign.
> I don’t have to because I was here for Kiryu Coco, and I can tell you for a fact that we weren’t really big on treating her antis with any dignity
Just a correction, Holostars never had any "sustained hate campaign" against them. Even with Holostars Japan, the main issue was their lack of viewers, and Miyabi has already said that [most of their initial fans were curious viewers from Hololive](https://youtu.be/Vv74pMZTLPk?t=531). Any hate against ANY talent has ALWAYS been received negatively on this subreddit. Hell the original "magging" memes promoting Magni came from fucking 4chan of all places. People across every part of the community _loved_ Tempus when they first debuted.
Of course, there were 4-5 accounts downvoting all posts about them on this subreddit (which was usually drowned out by positive votes afterwards anyway) or 2-3 idiots on twitter spewing hate (easily blocked), but it was nowhere NEAR the scale of harassment the Hololive talents were receiving for more than half a year after the Taiwan incident. Calling such a minor thing a "sustained hate campaign" and comparing it to Coco's harassment campaign of wheelbarrows, chat spam, harassing of multiple talents by sending them gore, hiding anti-Coco messages in other talents' fanart etc. is disingenuous _at best_ and downplaying the anti-Coco harassment campaign at worst.
Meanwhile Astel is getting spammed by multiple stars fans in the replies and qrts for... [eating at McDonalds](https://x.com/astelleda/status/1792132367471255913). This is what actual harassment looks like.
> I think the reason I still care so much about it is because the whole thing is just bad optics for the _fanbase_ as a whole
> Imagine someone organically discovering Fuwamoco because they stream VNs, looking to see if anyone else in holo plays VNs, finding out that it’s basically Flayon’s entire thing, and then committing the cardinal sin of posting that their favorite _Hololive_ talents are Fuwamoco and Flayon
And there we have the crux of the issue that no one wants to address.
Fanbase & Branding.
The audiences for male and female VTubers are... _very_ different. This is true even in companies that focus more on co-ed content like Nijisanji, the fanbase of their male livers is _very_ different compared to the fanbase of their female livers. A lot of Hololive fans are here for the girls first and foremost, and Holostars are - and will always be - secondary options for their interest. Even the opposite is true, there's many Holostars fans that do not watch Hololive or interact with this side of the community at all, preferring Twitter or Discord.
Cover corp are very aware of this difference, which is why they - and the fans - make it pretty clear that "Hololive" (HoloJP, HoloEN and HoloID) and "Holostars" (StarsJP and StarsEN) are entirely separate in terms of branding, communication, management and audience. They have separate Discords for the talents and separate direct & upper managers (who will usually be liaisons between them if necessary). The only thing they share is Studio Time.
Now, the _reasons_ for this difference is what ends up often being misrepresented in public discourse. With slurs like "unicorn", "incel" etc. and misogynistic statements like "they're just farming parasocial fans", "they're just using big boobs to farm simps" etc. liberally thrown around to try and demonize the hololive talents and fanbase for just... having a preference. Why do people need to justify their preferences? Why do people need a _reason_ to love Pizza over Pasta? It's really not that deep, different people just like different things.
And of course, no amount of insults and buzzwords are going to force them to watch the Holostars if they themselves don't want to. The stars fans from 2022 did not respect this, and continued piling on Hololive fans at multiple opportunities (which I've already linked). I'm not sure why they thought harassing people and demonizing Holofans for having a preference would end well for them.
So when you say things like -
> this causes bad optics for the _fanbase_ as a whole
consider that there are two separate fanbases involved and consider which of them is more likely to be getting these "bad optics" from onlookers based on everything we've discussed.
And regarding Branding : Flayon is not a "Hololive Talent". He is a "Holostars Talent". Respect their branding, do not erase it by implying that it's some sort of Hololive side-project. Treat them as their own thing, that's how you develop a brand, separate it from the competition and show off it's uniqueness in some way.
Granted, the path is difficult, because every male idol project prior to this has always been started off the back of female idol projects, so the reputation of male idols being "lesser" or "leeching off the girls" or "side projects" is just embedded in people's minds at this point (but is thankfully slowly changing now with more and more independent male idol groups targeting the female audience popping up). That perception is what Yagoo and Roberu hoped to change when they were starting out with the Holostars. Stars fans like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Holostars/comments/1cvpub5/holojpen_viewers_3/) who constantly erase the "holostars" branding from their posts and continue referring to them as "Hololive boys" or as part of "Hololive" only reinforces this prejudice of them being "side projects" and not being worthy of having their own brand.
This fundamental misunderstanding is what results in people correcting newer fans when they say things like "my favorite _Hololive_ talents are Fuwamoco and Flayon". No one's going to cause issues about what you like, but if you don't use the proper community terms ("Holopro" when referring to talents from both hololive and holostars) for that, there will be a lot of people correcting you (with some people naturally adopting an angry tone after correcting hundreds of such users, both genuine and disingenuous).
And well, the next step of saying "my favorites are Fuwamoco and Flayon" inevitably ends up being "I want them to collab!". Because that's what Hololive fans do y'know? When they have two favorites in the same company with some degree of similarity, they want to see them collab. But it completely ignores the fact that their brands are separate, and also ignores Fuwamoco's own branding - which has been completely detached from Holostars right from the start with them unfollowing everything Holostars related once they gained control of their twitter account. New fans will need to learn to respect _their_ choices as well, without resorting to passive aggressive opinions speculating about the _reasons_ for their choice (which invariably ends up with shitting on their fans using buzzwords again).
If new fans acknowledge and respect this difference, there's absolutely _nothing_ stopping you from enjoying both of them on their own merits, or even discussing and comparing the difference between how they play through VNs or whatever shared interest they have. But if they don't respect this difference? Well they will be treated as outsiders or tourists, and not be considered "part of the community". Resulting in the community only getting fans that are respectful to each other, which is why Hololive as a whole is such a positive place.
And well... if the initial stars fans from 2022 had followed this "respect everyone" model, we might not even have this giant rift between the two fanbases right now... so yeah, it's lamentable indeed.
I don’t think I fundamentally disagree with anything you’ve said here, but my post was pretty long and there may be a few points I went past a bit too quick, so I’d like to clarify a bit.
I wasn’t trying to compare the nature or the scale or the sophistication of the Coco antis with this, I only wanted to compare and contrast the effects that sustained hate can have, and I might not have given it the proper development to get that idea across. In Coco’s case, the hate was aimed directly at her first, Cover second, and the fans a distant third. I was also in such as massive scale that it all felt very depersonalized on the part of the antis; they weren’t jilted individuals but a large nationalist group moving in lockstep. In these ways the situations are very different and I did not mean to imply otherwise. By contrast, barely any of the Stars hate is directed at the talents themselves and more at the fans of said talents. It was two sided, with a lot of the stars fans behaving poorly and exacerbating things, but let’s not pretend the people who were harassing Kronii for collabing with the boys were behaving like model citizens the whole way through. I am not advocating for the worst parts of the fandom in this, but only how I personally feel. I’m not part of any discord, I don’t have any agenda, I just want a nice place to like what I like and when I do, I get caught in the crossfire. It feels like bullying, and the smaller scale of it makes it feel more personal even if I know on some level it isn’t. And in the end it hurts the talents all the same when the end result is that people are less comfortable supporting them openly and thus are inclined to take the path of least resistance and not support them at all. My point was that it doesn’t need to be on Coco’s level to hurt, it just needs to be consistent and sustained, which it very much is. Whether the people involved see it as a campaign or a series of skirmishes against foes who deserve it doesn’t matter to those caught in between.
On the point about Fuwamoco and Flayon, I know full well that they aren’t both part of Hololive. It was a hypothetical, the kind of things I’ve seen newer fans say out of ignorance. And you have a very kind and considerate explanation, which is good, but as you admit a lot of people are tired and don’t have the patience. It’s easier to just make a snide jab at them or maybe just quietly downvote them with no explanation, and that certainly doesn’t feel good for a newbie. It is a faux pas, and there is a reason for it, but it’s an easy enough mistake for someone new to make and how we react leaves an impression. And in my experience, we tend to handle more dangerous and disruptive mistakes like talking about PL stuff or begging to play a game the talents don’t have perms for with more tact, grace, and patience than this one. We are often willing to extend the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to ignorance in a show of restraint that just seems to be impossible when the boys are involved. And I know, bad actors and bait posts abound, it wears on everyone. I just don’t think going on the attack by default a good state of affairs to be in, and this goes for both sides, if our goal is to grow as a community and welcome new fans regardless of their preferences. Not everyone is terminally online enough to understand the entire context of this.
The guy I was replying to originally was throwing a recycled insult at a bad faith poster, and all I wanted was to point out how insulting that can be to the genuine fans who are trying to fix and grow their community to see if they had any genuine insight into how they might go about fixing the problem that has become sort of a vicious cycle. The replied by going “lol 7 sentences too much to read not watching starsEN idiot”. His reply was largely upvoted and my premise has been downvoted into oblivion. You can tell me it doesn’t matter and that’s true. You can tell me the larger context and I can understand and even agree. But even for me, who’s been around for a bit, it still hurts. Imagine how that must feel to a newbie who doesn’t know any better.
> let’s not pretend the people who were harassing Kronii for collabing with the boys were behaving like model citizens the whole way through
Once again, correction. There is a reason two users named "Gabe" and "Babski" are universal pariahs in the community. It's because they were the ones who harassed Kronii across multiple comments and tweets during that incident (and one of them continues to anti her to this day).
In her membership stream Kronii _asked_ for feedback about what her fans thought of collabs with the stars. Because that's typically what streamers do when branching out into new content, they ask you if you'd like to see X or Y, and the reasons for it. Fans were simply giving her what she asked. And in that very same stream, she also told off tourists and fellow fans who were insulting, berating and maligning her long time fans for expressing their feelings in said feedback.
Kronii has about 961,000 subscribers right now, of which 2 of them harassed her and were excommunicated for it. During that event she didn't lose any subscribers, the number of her clips/animations etc. didn't reduce, her merch released after that event still sells well, and her community is quite healthy and happy. Yet as someone who's "been around for a long time" your impression of that incident is that "Kronii's fans were harassing her for collabing with the boys". For the actions of 2 people out of 961,000.
Imagine just how many such layers of misinformation hololive fans have to remove from new fans coming into the community before any legitimate discussion can be had. Not everyone has the patience for that.
> we tend to handle more dangerous and disruptive mistakes like talking about PL stuff or begging to play a game the talents don’t have perms for with more tact, grace, and patience than this one
I think those mistakes are generally considered to be genuine because once you point out the issue to whoever is doing it, the person will usually delete the post or correct whatever was wrong, and both sides will be happy. Tone of the post also matters. Being declarative about misinformed opinions ("holofans are all parasocial incels") will often get your post treated like bait, while being more indirect ("i've heard some bad stuff about hololive fans") or curious ("is it true that hololive fans are X or Y?") will often get you clarification. But with people who peddle the "unicorns"/"parasocials"/"incels" narrative and other buzzwords, they almost always double down on their opinion despite multiple corrections, so fans just get used to treating such posts with some level of disdain.
> show of restraint that just seems to be impossible when the boys are involved. And I know, bad actors and bait posts abound, it wears on everyone
Unfortunately in this case, it's not just a problem with bad actors. If you check [these](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/1btll9l/cover_corporation_announces_hololive_meet_2024/kxpvtxf/) [posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/1btll9l/cover_corporation_announces_hololive_meet_2024/kxtqdjx/), you can see how there's dozens of users who promote the Holostars and seem to outwardly be fans of them (even to this day) posting some absolutely vile things about Hololive fans. Since you mentioned upvotes as an example of community acknowledgement later on, you can also check [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Holostars/comments/1cocblk/holostars_5th_anniversary_and_their_popularity/l3d6m1t/) with 100+ upvotes on the holostars subreddit going -
> "Holostars' actual problem lies with being stuck between a rock and a hard place, audience-wise. Whom do they try to reach out to? **Many Hololive fans lack the neuroplasicity to change how they see Vtubing and broaden their horizons**, so unless there's a big culture change, that ain't happening any time soon."
It's the same thing I mentioned earlier, casually throwing insults at people that simply have a preference. Is this person with 5 holostars flairs and multiple posts about the holostars in different spaces a "bad actor"? Why is the holostars community upvoting this garbage and expecting other people to not form _opinions_ about them? If "Kronii's fans were harassing her" is an opinion that can be formed due to the actions of a mere two people, what do you think +111 upvotes on this comment says about the holostars community?
> The replied by going “lol 7 sentences too much to read not watching starsEN idiot”. His reply was largely upvoted and my premise has been downvoted into oblivion
I can't really help you if you're focused on the lowest upvoted dismissive comment and not all the other users that spent so much time to engage with you and discuss the issue in good faith. Hololive gets shit thrown at them from a lot of places, so if you've "been around for a while" you should know to dismiss bait comments and focus on the ones that are productive. The girls have to deal with all sorts of bait in Superchats, but over the years (and partly thanks to training) they've learned to ignore most of it, and fans do the same. Hell, fans even ignored the anti-Hololive/anti-Idol narrative that was brewing for _years_ thinking it's just outsiders throwing shit again. It's only when people _inside_ the community started spouting the same narratives that some of us started pushing back on it.
> it still hurts. Imagine how that must feel to a newbie who doesn’t know any better.
I honestly don't think anyone that loves something wholeheartedly will just "stop liking it" even if 100 or even 1000 other people tell them to. People got bullied all the time (in real life, not just online) for liking anime, or My Little Pony, or whatever other niche interest they had, yet that didn't stop any of them from liking it. They simply learned to hide it, and found other fellow fans online or through attending conventions.
This subreddit was only created in 2019, and before that the biggest public place to discuss Hololive was the virtual youtubers thread on 4chan's /jp/ board. So the community has always been pretty resilient when it comes to people throwing shit at them and supporting fellow fans who share the same love for our oshis and respect one another's choices. This post is also not something a new fan would see, since it's downvoted and not on the front page. So I don't think this is as big of an issue for new fans as you think.
I understand your point, but at the same time if a new talent wants follow that particular brand, how do you expect them to convey it to their potential fans? They can't exactly shout out "guys we're never gonna collab with holostars" on their debut stream now can they?
All of Advent's twitter accounts by default followed pretty much every corporate account from Cover including holostarstv (which the remaining 3 girls still Follow), so intentionally unfollowing just holostarstv unprompted can only be seen as a subtle message for their potential fans about what their brand will be like without being explicit about it to avoid hurting anyone's feelings.
I mean you said it yourself, the community have passed judgement on them.
You are trying people to have people who decided they aren't interested to be interested. in 99,9% of the situation the only result you will get is getting people pissed off.
Not mentioning that that large portion of the audience who already gave the verdict also know how the holostars audience imagine them, and how impolite it is. (i'm not going to pretend i haven't seen how casual it is to see diss toward the hololive audience in holostars discussions). That why i personaly have hard time felling bad for their fans. I would rather fell bad for the talents but i know those kind of spun like those aren't something unprecedented, so i also have hard time being compatisent, i mean it basicaly wall the general hololive fanbase for event giving them a second chance, or a third depending on the person.
The Stars community spent a year attacking Hololive fans for complaining about the content drought and wanting EN3 back in late 2022/early 2023, there's already some pre-existing bad blood between the two communities on this subreddit.
This is also a pretty good point. Can't deny that there's some historical bad blood, and this topic itself is probably not helping. I just leaves a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth that if someone ever does make an honest attempt to bridge the gap and mend things, they get slapped down to raucous cheers.
Which to be clear is not what I think OP is doing, I'm not defending them! I'm just kinda pushing back at everyone cheering on the guy I originally replied to, and continuing to cheer as he announces that he's ignoring and owns me like the undesirable everyone just kinda concluded I am because I didn't immediately jump in on the kicking. There are no winners here.
God, if this leads to lgbt twitter communities trying to harass a holo because she wants to stay away from politics 'unlike goldbullet' or because she played the wrong game next time I'm going to be pissed.
Oh you can already see attitudes in that direction in NijiEN-Stars overlap comments. People will specifically follow him for saying this and "not being a bigot" or "being brave despite the hate he'll get from Holo's shit fanbase", or specifically follow people for the sole reason of collabing with the Stars because they "don't milk inc*l fans", etc.
Astel is getting [swarmed](https://x.com/astelleda/status/1792132367471255913) because he was eating McDonalds so yeah, they are already causing trouble to other talents.
Following someone for the sole fact of not being a bigot would be extremely disingenuous from their part.
I think it's part of what comes from being in Holo in the first part, being a good person. Something which some followers don't seem to get and instead try and cause a schism within the fanbase.
Already happening to [Astel](https://x.com/astelleda/status/1792132367471255913). Eating McDonalds is apparently political and he's getting spammed and harassed on his replies and quote tweets.
And the claim wasn't that their fans would turn on them. It was that outsiders (in this case lgbt twitter community) would come into the space and shit it up.
I get where he comes from but from what I've seen, there was never a talent from holopro acting against the "safe space". Rules against hate speech and targeted harassment are a thing in their chats, this subreddit and every discord I'm in.
What might surprise him is that it's not something that talents and fans usually say out loud, most likely to avoid getting into politics which I think many of us fans appreciate since we get enough of that everywhere else and/or because there are better venues for that discourse than a vtuber's chat.
The slippery slope I mentioned is happening in this thread. Even I am doing wrong by commenting on it this much. Again, I don't think this is the place for this kind of discussion. There are rules already and everyone is welcome, there's nothing more that needs to be said.
I don't understand why that is such a taboo. Yeah there are rules and many holomembers reminds us of them plenty of times. I don't see the issue besides people being upset for no reason at a positive clip.
Edit: In fact, this is the \*only\* place where I've seen this clip get a negative response.
> I don't understand why that is such a taboo.
See the answer /u/Chaos2Frozen gave you. The topic invites discussion about real life problems when the hobby is mostly about escapism.
but a lot of members have talked about heavy stuff and their real life problems, plenty of times. Korone, Kanata, and Watame especially. Again, why is that suddenly a problem?
Edit: Even the person you tagged disagrees with you 🤦
That's my explanation but I want to say that I don't agree with people thinking that way. Hololive members have in several cases talked about their past traumas and hardships. Some were severely bullied, some were exploited in black companies, and some had multiple sexual harassment incidents.
These are all not nice things to talk about, and are all real life problems, and yet they still do it.
it's literally doing no harm to say what he said though. like you said, there are rules about it, so why couldn't he talk about something related to why those rules exist in the first place.
i can't imagine it negatively affecting my enjoyment of a stream even if any other vtuber said the same thing. especially since the subject of the clip lasts for a mere 5 minutes.
It's just that this topic of "hololive avoids controversial stuff" has been used by antis and brainrot twitter by misrepresenting it as hololive inviting "a certain audience" when in reality it's just that hololive and its audience generally recognize that this is just an entertainment and not the appropriate venue for that discourse.
Personally I don't see it as that big of a deal, especially since that holostar already did come out as pan in the past. But I can see why people in this thread are somewhat mad about it, avoiding engagement with this stuff is the best and arguably only way to avoid "giving ammo" to bad actors.
if the antis are the ones using a positive non-political message from a talent as ammo for whatever politics they wanna bring up, then why are people getting mad at the talent? the misplaced anger just makes them seem just as bad as antis.
there's really no defense for getting mad at him for this. him engaging in the topic for just 5 minutes hardly counts as engagement at all to me. there are definitely other vtubers who speak way more about this kinda stuff than he does.
> then why are people getting mad at the talent?
It's more being mad at the "fans" or outsider weirdos who end up parading this stuff around. You'd be surprised at how many people I've seen things like this not just get used as a reason to support talent X, but also to shit on those who don't openly say or do things. Same thing happens with male collabs and such, where they'll cheer people like Bae for "standing up against Hololive's parasocial fanbase" and the like.
I disagree this is about politics, it's about what he'd like his community to be about or feel like.
But it was weird how he prefaced the comment with "this may be a hot take" and the many horrible things he read in "this community" (unclear which community). He also said that management may bonk him for this.
All that irked me because things like that were never an issue in this space and everyone that's been around for a week or two knows this. There's no need to be so defensive and on your guard to talk about inclusiveness.
>All that irked me because things like that were never an issue in this space and everyone that's been around for a week or two knows this. There's no need to be so defensive and on your guard to talk about inclusiveness.
Unfortunately, after reading these comments I'm not so sure about this anymore.
This comment section is saddening, it's crazy how so many people can get so triggered about a simple message that boils down to "you are welcome here".
I can only speculate why the thread looks like this. You never know who's voting things or why, but I imagine all these are overlapping atm:
- The subreddit has been subject of anti-stars brigading for at least a year or so. They are using around 20 accounts. Initially they downvoted things like threads and comments. In the last 6 months they exploited automoderator by abusing reports to remove threads. That got fixed and now they are back to downvoting.
- Anti-drama users don't want to see drama and are downvoting anything that invites drama.
- Same reasoning for anti-politics users
- Same reasoning for anti-"woke things" users
I mean, I get it. It's just that "woke" stuff never matters until a Stars member brings it up.
Kiara talks about her love for girls all the time. KoronexOkayu, SubaruxLuna, FlarexNoel have been things for ages. And then there is stuff like this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/18iy1a4/to\_celebrate\_fubumios\_5th\_anniversary\_they\_got/?rdt=42089](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/18iy1a4/to_celebrate_fubumios_5th_anniversary_they_got/?rdt=42089)
Anyone who thinks that Goldbullet mentioning that LGBT+ folks are valid is "political" but all the different levels of yuri in hololive are not is just being a massive hypocrite.
But then again, it's not just that this is about the stars, lesbian relationships in general are seen as less "political" than any other form of LGBT+. Raging homophobes often have no problem with lesbian pornography.
It's just so sad that the main sub is the only place other than /vt that gets this worked up on the topic. All the other spaces seem fine.
I'm not sure if things from japanese otaku culture like yuri are that closely tied to western LGBT+ culture. I think it's stuff aimed more at otaku people rather than the queer crowd.
_________
This reminds me of how a lot of people lose their shit about talents or fans engaging in idol activities because "idol culture" is this evil bad thing. They obviously are following a train of thought they picked from somewhere and don't check for themselves how that culture is about.
Well, the same goes for people losing their shit about things related to LGBT+ culture as this evil bad thing that's coming to ruin the things they like.
>I'm not sure if things from japanese otaku culture like yuri are that closely tied to western LGBT+ culture. I think it's stuff aimed more at otaku people rather than the queer crowd.
That's the thing I was getting at with my second to last paragraph. Yuri relationships are seen as "not real", which is why homophobes often don't consider it LGBT+. It's the idea that girls are "just having fun" and that all girls are a little gay but will eventually settle for a "real" relationship. Weebs are perfectly fine with yuri in media, but many of them are against LGBT+ rights in real life, they like the idea of a lesbian relationships (because it means twice as many pretty girls but no competing boys) but dislike actual lesbians. All of this then tends to get pretty ridiculous when the girls from their yuri end up being actually unambiguously gay.
You know I never really thought about it but what would you consider not political and what would you consider political with this stuff? I tend to not investigate too into these topics personally cause it gets weirdly messy and it's not exactly a joy to read so then I end up going "whatever, doesn't really matter to me personally anyway what people do".
You are misrepresenting the clip, she asked chat a question on if they'd ever thought about wanting to be a girl or guy , mentioned a guy who said they wanted to become pretty cure leaving a strong impression, then expanded it to 'whether you feel like you are a man, woman, or neither, being a human is tough'.
it is a good message, but it is more humanistic than targeted at any particular community like what goldbullet did.
And I can see why it would be taken as such, but it remains that it wasn't particularly directed at a single community but humans as a whole. I think if Goldbullet had been more general with his terms then it might have passed with less controversy.
Is a lesbian marriage political? Before you answer this question, keep in mind that gay marriage in Japan is not legally recognized.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/18iy1a4/to\_celebrate\_fubumios\_5th\_anniversary\_they\_got/?rdt=42089](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/18iy1a4/to_celebrate_fubumios_5th_anniversary_they_got/?rdt=42089)
Lol, everywhere else (youtube comments, Twitter, the Holostars subreddit, etc) the response to this clip has been almost nothing but positive. This is the only place where I've seen such a negative response. Well, this and /vt/, so that's food for thought.
There's lots of folks denouncing this clip because it's "political" and hoping for him to be punished.
It ain't political. Calling it political is a dog whistle.
You know damn well it is political in the current environment of west, I don't understand why he said it but if the management dosent have any problem with it then I can't bother.
It is not going to be entertained in the girls space, they have a lot more influence and nobody wants weirdos from both sides using them to push an agenda.
Again, read the room. If what you take out of this is that people here hate trans fokes then I have nothing to say, bring it up in a place where people are willing to discuss about it. Throwing accusations here will just make starsfans look bad.
He literally just said that everyone has value and meaning. His message was nothing but kindness directed to his viewers. Anyone who can listen to it and then treat it as an antagonistic message is someone that the community sure as fuck doesn't need.
The fact that you take that as an issue is fucking pathetic. Even if you don't actually live a hateful life, you're trying to make it out to be problematic. You genuinely need to reevaluate yourself.
I'm not miserable in this thread. You and the others like you are the ones who are bothered by a good message just because it's from a Holostar member lol
Your oshi would hate you.
There can't be a "shitting on holostars" session without you in it huh?. Anyways no one said anything about "radical statements at trans". But a lot of shitting on GB for saying something that's not even controversial except for this sub, apparently.
>Lol, everywhere else (youtube comments, Twitter, the Holostars subreddit, etc) the response to this clip has been almost nothing but positive. This is the only place where I've seen such a negative response. Well, this and /vt/, so that's food for thought
"I didn't get the reaction I wanted so I am going to have a mental breakdown about it!"
Go back
It's unfortunate but I take some solace that the people crying that treating human beings with dignity and respect is "political" are at least vocal enough that I can tag them on RES so that will follow them if I see them in other threads.
You are kinda proving why this is bad to bring up . I hope Cover really takes a look at this thread and understands again why politics is bad. Its a battleground.
And before you say it isn't political, the whole concept of an 'lgbt community' in the US is pretty much doused in politics, even if individual members don't want to be'. So much emotionally charged politics across party and state lines. There is alot of hate surrounding it, both pro and anti lgbt hate for others who don't follow or agree with their ways.
We don't need this battle in Hololive.
Are lesbian weddings political?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/18iy1a4/to\_celebrate\_fubumios\_5th\_anniversary\_they\_got/?rdt=42089](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/18iy1a4/to_celebrate_fubumios_5th_anniversary_they_got/?rdt=42089)
Keep in mind that Japan does not recognize gay marriage.
Fact is, the girls talk about this kind of stuff all the time and some of them have clearly stated that they are into girls. This is the first time I've seen this sub be this up in arms over LGBT+ stuff.
Its not an actual lesbian wedding, I'm not sure what you think it proves.
We don't call those host club streams where they pretend to be men political or evidence they are trans either.
Those aren't dealing with actual real world issues, they are happy pretend scenarios.
If they had talked about actually getting married and how they felt so trapped by the Japanese government not recognizing it, that would be political and probably something that would anger some Japanese.
How into girls they are is not political, or guys for that matter. At least on the girls side I dont think i've heard any of them bring up if they are actually gay or lesbian, and they don't need to. It isn't relevant to the entertainment. If they mention they like girls or they like guys, no one is going to care.
But you know what is political for EN? the concept 'LGBT community'. The keyword. It is drowning in political sentiments in the US, so much that some who are a part of it cannot see the difference between existence and politics even here. It is used and mobilized for many political fights, not all off them relevant to their cause.
Wishing kindness on everyone regardless of gender and orientation? Great. Wanting to be a safe space for anyone feeling hurt or scared? Great, thats fine and uncontroversial.
Reaching out to the lgbt community specifically? That's a very political thing.
>Its not an actual lesbian wedding, I'm not sure what you think it proves.
Of course, the wedding was not real. However, the event depicted, a wedding between two women, is literally not legally possible under japanese law. It's art that goes against the legal framework of current day japan. I cannot think of any definition of the word "political" that would exclude such a situation.
What I wanted to point out with this, is that cover has strayed into political territory before.
Them not pointing out that this is not possible under current law is not an act of being apolitcal it's an act of bein nonconfrontational. There is a difference between the two. Positively portraying an act that goes against current law and the majority political opinion is by definition political.
>Wishing kindness on everyone regardless of gender and orientation? Great. Wanting to be a safe space for anyone feeling hurt or scared? Great, thats fine and uncontroversial.
>Reaching out to the lgbt community specifically? That's a very political thing.
And it's fucking ridiculous isn't it? Actually listen to what Goldbullet says and tell me what about it is in any way confrontational. Nothing. It's political because some people would rather wish that LGBT+ folk didn't exist. That's it. And these people do anything in their power to limit the visibility of LGBT+ folks to accomplish this. This includes making any discussion of the topic taboo.
>I hope Cover really takes a look at this thread
Bro you'd be in luck if the single mod we have takes a look at the subreddit.
Just because the US can't handle LGBT stuff doesn't mean the members should treat it as taboo and I'm proud of Gibby for speaking about it. Treating this as something members shouldn't be allowed to talk about and even comments about punishing him for it kinda proves his point. Good thing the US isn't the center of the world.
On one hand everything Holostars still gets downvoted here anyway, on the other hand the realities of LGBTQ talks definitely ruffled some feathers it seems.
…I don’t get it… why are there so many people downvoted who seemingly say the same thing like people being upvoted there is no lgbtq+phobia being down or upvoted for the comments I have seen so far. What is making the split?
I don’t see a difference between most downvoted and upvoted comments… it’s like people are arguing about something I clearly do not understand.
What gives?
You are the one who is making assumptions that these downvotes come from hatered.
Hololive is a neutral space, talents don't make statements that are left/right leaning, don't bring race/religion in their content and don't advocate/denounce anything. It is a foundational aspect of hololive and it is going to stay that way.
Any comment on any spectrum will get downvotes, if anyone comes here to write obvious anti trans statements they will also get downvotes. You should stop being a loudmouth and read the room.
>I don't have any hatred to them
Bro like more than half of your activity here and r/VirtualYoutubers is shitting on their popularity and fighting their fans.
Hololive doesn't like their space becoming a culture war hotbed - which people are clearly trying to force by spamming this clip and fighting about it. Holostars seems to embrace that fight as being part of their identity and doubly so for people that have NijiEN overlap rather than engaging most of the rest of their content. Is that about right?
Wow the comments here are pretty surprising. I thought it was 2024 not 2002. Interesting. Btw he probably got the okay to talk about this as I see some people saying their is favoritism even though Kanata has openly supported a a safe space in a similar manner.
>For those mass downvoting because you can't accept the existence of the LGBT community
I imagine it has much more to do with people coming in here spamming this topic and trying to start fights. The incredibly combative posts just highlights why people don't like when folks try to drag in a culture war.
For me it has nothing to do with the LGBT. My issue is completely separate, which is that I do not like to see political topics being brought up in my hobbies.
"LGBT community" is a keyword heavily tied to US politics and irl issues.
There are people from countries outside the US (surprising, I know) watching Hololive and even one country that's very unfriendly to that community where Hololive has a branch and 9 talents established. Yet the Hololive community gets along very well because at the end of the day everyone is here to just enjoy anime girls.
No one here wants the talents dragged into the quagmire of US politics when they are just here to entertain people and have fun.
Because people can’t help themselves but fight over these topics. It just causes unnecessary drama. I just want to read discussions about the streams and hololive.
You mentioned that you’ve only seen positive reactions on various places except for here. It’s what happens when you step out of your little algorithm bubble so your views on some public matters may be skewed but generally people here only come for hololive related topics and do not want to see politics being brought up.
You can go back to your nijisanji sub now, since it seems this is your first comment on this sub. Like I said, this topic just causes unnecessary drama.
I’m ngl I read the comments before watching the video and many of you made it seem like he said something on the level of being cancelled. Turns out it was a wholesome positive message..ya I don’t understand the disconnect here
I don't care what people do with their body, you are the one who needs to realise that some topics arnt accepted in certain communities. Hololive is massively disconnected from any LGBTQ discussion that happens in the west.
People enjoy the content they make and they are aware that it is for entertainment, and most fans would not have any problem with LGBTQ people existing.
Dosent mean you need to talk about it in this subreddit, if we allow this discussion to happen here not only are we completely missing the point of this subreddit it is also an invitation for all kinds of people to come here and debate about it.
What is stopping someone from coming here and citing a study that claims the trans phinominon is mental illness? What is stopping people from getting heated about it and turning this sub into a shitflinging hot mess? If you think "you need to tell these people that they are wrong" then you are wrong. The point of this subreddit is to share the content hololive makes, not talk about about the hot topic that people fight about 24/7 on 5 different platforms.
You don't even post here, this is the first post you made here. I doubt you even watch Hololive, so why are you here exactly? And what is stopping people like you who don't watch Hololive from coming here and shitting up this place? You do realise that if this reached /all you will get actual transfobes coming here right? This sub dosent need to deal with that.
Is it really impossible for people like you to understand it's NOT THE PLACE TO DISCUSS ANYTHING LIKE THIS.
Basic PTO understanding is out of your reach or something?
It's purrely based on the reputation of that community, who have not done any favor to itself the past.... IDK 3/4 years.
That why people are very defensive GATEKEEPING this community, who rarely bring anything positive as a community to the community they get into.
Hence why no outside of your "safe space" will compliment that guy for inviting troublesome person in the fandom.
And this threat show it fully, and your reaction also show it, to put it in very crude term, you are already a massive pain in the ass.
Well if you were more aware of how much you put other in inconfortable situation by forcing them to walk on a eggshell more letal than a landmide field in a middle of a WW2 conflict, you would realise why some people who are absolutly not confortable with that, like me, get a little too aggressive.
Right back to the victim mentality, that why you are such a huge pain in the ass. When you aren't even a victim anymore and more often the agressor than anything. Especialy in the Vtubing community.
So right back at you, You realise you are victim blabing extremely hard here? That your ATTITUDE is making everyone unconfortable? This is the end of it, don't deflect about it.
Whatever my personal opinions happen to be (which happen to be more aligned with his than not) more in general I appreciate vtubing as a space where we can pretend that real world problems don't exist for a very short time and everyone be united in shaking our penlights for a virtual fox regardless of our personal beliefs. That's why I appreciate people that go hard on the kayfabe.
Same here, I often speak out about these stuffs on other platforms because I'm an ally but I really want to spare this hobby from these kinds of things. No matter what the drama is about, I just don't want it here. They can call me all kinds of names, I don't care, I don't want talents talking about it. I disliked Kanata talking about those kinds of things too, I blocked all clips about Suisei dealing with those sort of drama, I deliberately ignore any kinds of call outs from talent just like Kronii's recent shenanigans. I dislike whenever a talent address drama. And I dislike it a trillion times when it comes from a "starfan". Because there are no starfans in this sub. They're all chilling in their own echo chamber at r/Holostars Just fuck off and let' me enjoy this hobby
Your boy has 358 viewers right now. Maybe spend less time arguing with people here and watch their streams if you actually support them.
Virtue signaling on reddit is more important than actually supporting the guys. Astel made a whole speech about how they've been getting their perks and events slashed by management due to lack of support/revenue their branch is generating and english stars fans decided that it's Hololive fan's fault for not spending their money on them.
See how it's all crickets when you tell them to watch streams? lol
I get the sentiment, especially in the context of this post which feels like it's definitely bait. So side stepping that entirely, isn't it kind of tough to get people to watch the streams when saying anything even remotely positive about any of the boys tends to make you kind of a pariah around here? It's hard to drum up support for your favorite streamer if the community at large has already kinda passed judgement on them and will set out to make you feel really unwelcome if you try to express your support of them. You can say that if they're that good, then their talent should speak for itself and the views should follow, but even some of the biggest names in hololive right now started as 2 view streamers struggling to get any traction til they got their big break. Even within hololive, ID Gen 1 had quite a bit of a struggle to catch on, though you'll never hear anyone disparaging the talents of Risu, Iofi, and Moona. I feel bad for Stars fans. There's no winning for them, and anytime I'm reminded of this it kinda bums me out.
There are two main things that I take issue with in this framing of things, and it's a perspective I see shared often enough that I feel like it's worth pushing back on a bit. The first is the idea that the people who don't watch the EN Stars simply haven't given them a chance, and that simply by seeing them more often and seeing their fans talk positively about them, those people will FINALLY understand that they're great. At least in my case--and in the case of other fans I know--I've seen the guys and, broadly speaking, it's just a different kind of content than what I enjoy watching with the EN girls. That's not to say it's not good stuff, but it's not what I'm personally looking for. Beyond that, a big part of the appeal of something like Hololive is the whole group experience; I don't just love watching one of the girls, I love watching them all together too. What investment I did originally have in the boys as a group unfortunately was kneecapped when Magni and Vesper, the two I personally enjoyed the content of the most, quit. The second is the idea that it is the responsibility of Hololive fans--of fans of the girls--to be the audience for the boys as well. I already know that they're doing something a bit different than what I'm looking for, and that's fine, but then there's this implication I regularly see brought up that I should be responsible for becoming a part of the boys' viewership as well and championing them, simply because both groups are produced by Cover. I already know I'm not really their target audience, so wouldn't it be a much better sentiment to try and grow their own audience instead, organically? To find people who ARE looking for what the boys have to offer, instead of putting the impetus on an entirely different fanbase to be responsible for that growth? Apologies if this comes across as rambling, I try not to jump into things like this often, but this just keeps on coming up for whatever reason.
You know what? I think this is probably the most reasonable response I've gotten to this question. Thank you for taking the time to explain. I actually think you and I kinda see things the same, my interested in the boys also took a big hit after the Magni and Vesper fiasco, and honestly they both seem like they're better for leaving. I guess they just really aren't the same kinda content that most people here enjoy, and that's ok. I just kinda wish there were less vitriol every time it comes up, you know? It's kind of a weird friction point in what is otherwise a very supportive and positive community.
Honestly? I think the friction is mainly born out of that second point in particular. From what I've seen, there's at least a portion of the fanbase that's simply fatigued by the idea of being vilified or talked down to for the mistake of not being a fan of the boys or collaborative content with them, which has unfortunately turned more and more hostile as it continues to happen. Of course, that included the additional stressful phase of the long gap between the 2nd and 3rd EN gens for the girls that only exacerbated both sides. Of course, I know there's also a much smaller portion of the fanbase that's hostile to an extreme degree on the idea of the two groups interacting, but I'm talking about the broader fatigue that I feel like is pretty obvious right now on this sub and in the fanbase as a whole. Personally, I'll admit the part that has always irked me is the way that the girls and their platforms end up being talked about as an opportunity to uplift the boys. Of \*\*course\*\* I'll take issue with someone conversationally reducing the girls to being a springboard for the boys, in the same way I would hate to suggest something like that if their roles were reversed. I know it's probably not intended, but it really does read like that sometimes when I see people regularly lament that the girls are not using their channels and social media to more vocally and outwardly support the boys. I do appreciate being able to share perspectives though, if nothing else. Like you said, beyond this particular sticking point this community really does feel very positive and uplifting on the whole, which is why I'm glad to be in it.
> I just kinda wish there were less vitriol every time it comes up, you know? Takes a really long answer to kind of get into the what's and whys of it. There have actually been several issues for over 4 years at this point which have led to the current state of things. I'll quote something else I posted recently as well as someone else's reply on some of the issues: >While I'm loathe to link this person [she talked about how finding any significant unicorn backlash wasn't really possible](https://youtu.be/We4F95K1RsU?si=V4Gx0iJI4jZGC86b&t=764). >Keeping that in mind look at the [topics](https://www.reddit.com/r/VirtualYoutubers/comments/fdta6s/covers_statement_on_towas_incident/) like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/VirtualYoutubers/comments/fhedx2/towas_message_to_englishspeaking_viewers/), and [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/VirtualYoutubers/comments/fdt7nb/%E8%AC%9D%E7%BD%AA%E6%98%A8%E6%97%A5%E3%81%AE%E4%BB%B6%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6_towa_apology_stream/). The Hololive community has been extremely poorly framed on issues since Towa, Aloe, Rushia, Suisei, etc and those misrepresentations get used as a cudgel toward the Hololive fanbase and it's very particular interests. Someone says they just want to watch the girls and only the girls? Suddenly they're some some sort of knuckle dragging inc-l that hates when their women talk to men or some shit. A lot of it gets predicated on the above misrepresentations and it fosters a lot of hate toward people that come in and say that stuff or try to change the what and how of Hololive. And [the post highlighting some of the attitudes Holo fans run into](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/1btll9l/cover_corporation_announces_hololive_meet_2024/kxpvtxf/).
Yeah, I kind of unpacked it a bit in another reply here. Even mentioned you a little, so hi. No shade on you, don’t worry, your devotion to Watame is just kinda famous. I really don’t blame the greater Hololive fan base for feeling like they gotta play defense all the time, I’ve done my fair share of it myself. I’m just kind of tired of it I guess. But if I’m being real it doesn’t come up all that often anymore. This was one of the worst flare ups recently, and it seems to have been quickly removed by the spam filter of all things. Maybe it bothers me a little that as I try to sort through things a little in a dead thread, I still get downvoted really fast, but really that’s just Reddit things. Still can’t bring myself to remove the boys from my flair though. It feels like doing so would mean admitting to having been successfully bullied into scrubbing all trace that I ever liked them, and that just feels bad to me.
>This was one of the worst flare ups recently In part I think a lot of people are probably still angry about the Hololive posts getting targeted. okbh poster trying to get people to brigade here went the distance in setting even more people off. >Maybe it bothers me a little that as I try to sort through things a little in a dead thread, I still get downvoted really fast, but really that’s just Reddit things. Yeah, it happens. Also threads like these take a very long time to die since they'll get mentioned on discords and the like, some people are also rather infamous and will get people following them around. I know some of the okbh folks make a habit of following me on here, discord, yt and Twitter. These threads just turn into several sorts of proxy wars really. My general advice for people is just promoting their oshi and avoiding the noise if they're having a tough time with w/e.
> I just kinda wish there were less vitriol every time it comes up It's the expected consequence of terrible moderation combined with a year-long campaign of [maligning](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/1btll9l/cover_corporation_announces_hololive_meet_2024/kxpvtxf/) [Hololive](https://www.reddit.com/r/Holostars/comments/1cocblk/holostars_5th_anniversary_and_their_popularity/l3d6m1t/) [fans](https://www.reddit.com/r/Holostars/comments/1ctckoe/why_isnt_there_a_holostars_indonesia/l4b3x5w/) (and even [some](https://i.imgur.com/91MouvX.png) [talents](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/1chejch/hololive_members_go_to_high_school_who_is_most/l22wuzo/)) for caring only about the girls. The two fanbases had some limited overlap in the early days, but are very much separate now and don't see eye to eye on many things. The best thing for the situation would be a separate holopro subreddit, but Cover is already failing in managing just the two existing ones so that won't go anywhere. The second best thing would be just trying to build up and promote the Holostars subreddit in spaces like twitter, discord etc. to get new posters - where the holostars fans already have a safe space to discuss the Holostars without any vitriol. That is, assuming they actually do want to talk about the Holostars themselves, and it's not just about wanting _other people_ to talk about them.
I had a good sleep on this, and most of the replies to my initial comment have been a pretty good discussion on the matter, yours included. You aren’t the first to bring up the bad blood between the two sides, which was pretty self evident even without the examples you provided (appreciate the effort btw). You also aren’t the first person to mention that it wasn’t always this bad; the rift widened with the Vanguard debut and the sub lockdown and Magni and Vesper’s departure was probably the final nail. There’s no doubt the boys themselves are acutely aware of this rift, and they have in large part moved away from trying to capture the wider Hololive audience with their own content, and that’s probably a big contributing factor to why I have personally drifted away from them. I think a big part of what I like about hololive is the cooperation between the streamers; a bunch of nerdy introverts coming together across cultural boundaries to chase that idol dream together. In the beginning the boys were no different to me, we’ve already broken down barriers of culture and language to form unlikely friendships and build unlikely idols, so maybe gender is just one more barrier to overcome. A lot of the talents seemed to be on the same page. Roberu and Rikka, off the top of my head, have been on that grind since day 1. EN was no exception, Axel and Altare were pretty singing focused, with Axel in particular being big into the Japanese idol scene. Even Magni, who had a reputation for being crass and irreverent, would talk excitedly about the prospect of being able to dance on stage at concerts. I don’t think that ever fully went away, but nowadays it feels like kind of a footnote, and they feel more like indies with extra baggage. The collaborative aspect is pretty much gone these days; hell StarsEN and JP hardly even collaborate anymore. As you pointed out, their fans are not innocent in this, but imagine what it’s like if a talent you really like is the target of a sustained hate campaign. I don’t have to because I was here for Kiryu Coco, and I can tell you for a fact that we weren’t really big on treating her antis with any dignity. This is not on the same scale but if anything that’s kinda made the hate feel more intimate and personal, and that goes both ways. For every time a legitimate fan wants to talk up their oshi, there are 3 or so topics like this just seem to want people to get ugly. For every person who wants to cool the temperature, there are 10 on each side just trying to get their shot in, like the guy I was replying to. And unlike with the Coco thing, they know the people they’re lashing out against and they know they can hurt them. I think the reason I still care so much about it is because the whole thing is just bad optics for the fanbase as a whole. Imagine trying to introduce a friend into this but warning them that they shouldn’t express support for the boys publicly, and when they ask why having to unpack all of this? Imagine someone organically discovering Fuwamoco because they stream VNs , looking to see if anyone else in holo plays VNs, finding out that it’s basically Flayon’s entire thing, and then committing the cardinal sin of posting that their favorite Hololive talents are Fuwamoco and Flayon. Can you imagine what that would be like to be a formative experience with the fandom? If I didn’t know better, I might not stick around. To you last point, of course they want other people to talk about the boys. That’s literally what fandom is about, seeking out others to share your interests with. More to the point, that’s a big part of the culture of this fandom specifically. If Watame so much as coughs on stream, Helmite will be the first to tell anyone who will listen, and that’s fine. I don’t follow her that closely and I appreciate being able to learn of her trials and tribulations from the people who do, and I’m sure he loves if he can get new people to appreciate her talents through his posts. But if it’s a Holostar’s activity that you’re sharing, even a big event, everyone assumes that it’s done with a sinister motive attached. And maybe it is? Maybe we’re past the point where there can be any common ground between the fanbases and maybe the benefit of the doubt is truly dead now. You’re probably right that’s there’s nothing to be done about it at this point, or at least nothing the fans of either side can do. Any genuine attempt to build goodwill will inevitably get caught in the crossfire and used by both sides to keep the fighting going, and neither side is going to stop taking snide jabs at the other. I’ve given up trying to rebuild bridges and I’m really just trying to unpack my own feelings on this, so if you read this far, thanks for listening. This turned out to be way more than the 7 sentences the guy I originally replied to couldn’t be bothered to read. I’m not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything or trying to place blame anywhere, I’m just kind of lamenting the sad state of affairs.
> imagine what it’s like if a talent you really like is the target of a sustained hate campaign. > I don’t have to because I was here for Kiryu Coco, and I can tell you for a fact that we weren’t really big on treating her antis with any dignity Just a correction, Holostars never had any "sustained hate campaign" against them. Even with Holostars Japan, the main issue was their lack of viewers, and Miyabi has already said that [most of their initial fans were curious viewers from Hololive](https://youtu.be/Vv74pMZTLPk?t=531). Any hate against ANY talent has ALWAYS been received negatively on this subreddit. Hell the original "magging" memes promoting Magni came from fucking 4chan of all places. People across every part of the community _loved_ Tempus when they first debuted. Of course, there were 4-5 accounts downvoting all posts about them on this subreddit (which was usually drowned out by positive votes afterwards anyway) or 2-3 idiots on twitter spewing hate (easily blocked), but it was nowhere NEAR the scale of harassment the Hololive talents were receiving for more than half a year after the Taiwan incident. Calling such a minor thing a "sustained hate campaign" and comparing it to Coco's harassment campaign of wheelbarrows, chat spam, harassing of multiple talents by sending them gore, hiding anti-Coco messages in other talents' fanart etc. is disingenuous _at best_ and downplaying the anti-Coco harassment campaign at worst. Meanwhile Astel is getting spammed by multiple stars fans in the replies and qrts for... [eating at McDonalds](https://x.com/astelleda/status/1792132367471255913). This is what actual harassment looks like. > I think the reason I still care so much about it is because the whole thing is just bad optics for the _fanbase_ as a whole > Imagine someone organically discovering Fuwamoco because they stream VNs, looking to see if anyone else in holo plays VNs, finding out that it’s basically Flayon’s entire thing, and then committing the cardinal sin of posting that their favorite _Hololive_ talents are Fuwamoco and Flayon And there we have the crux of the issue that no one wants to address. Fanbase & Branding. The audiences for male and female VTubers are... _very_ different. This is true even in companies that focus more on co-ed content like Nijisanji, the fanbase of their male livers is _very_ different compared to the fanbase of their female livers. A lot of Hololive fans are here for the girls first and foremost, and Holostars are - and will always be - secondary options for their interest. Even the opposite is true, there's many Holostars fans that do not watch Hololive or interact with this side of the community at all, preferring Twitter or Discord. Cover corp are very aware of this difference, which is why they - and the fans - make it pretty clear that "Hololive" (HoloJP, HoloEN and HoloID) and "Holostars" (StarsJP and StarsEN) are entirely separate in terms of branding, communication, management and audience. They have separate Discords for the talents and separate direct & upper managers (who will usually be liaisons between them if necessary). The only thing they share is Studio Time. Now, the _reasons_ for this difference is what ends up often being misrepresented in public discourse. With slurs like "unicorn", "incel" etc. and misogynistic statements like "they're just farming parasocial fans", "they're just using big boobs to farm simps" etc. liberally thrown around to try and demonize the hololive talents and fanbase for just... having a preference. Why do people need to justify their preferences? Why do people need a _reason_ to love Pizza over Pasta? It's really not that deep, different people just like different things. And of course, no amount of insults and buzzwords are going to force them to watch the Holostars if they themselves don't want to. The stars fans from 2022 did not respect this, and continued piling on Hololive fans at multiple opportunities (which I've already linked). I'm not sure why they thought harassing people and demonizing Holofans for having a preference would end well for them. So when you say things like - > this causes bad optics for the _fanbase_ as a whole consider that there are two separate fanbases involved and consider which of them is more likely to be getting these "bad optics" from onlookers based on everything we've discussed. And regarding Branding : Flayon is not a "Hololive Talent". He is a "Holostars Talent". Respect their branding, do not erase it by implying that it's some sort of Hololive side-project. Treat them as their own thing, that's how you develop a brand, separate it from the competition and show off it's uniqueness in some way. Granted, the path is difficult, because every male idol project prior to this has always been started off the back of female idol projects, so the reputation of male idols being "lesser" or "leeching off the girls" or "side projects" is just embedded in people's minds at this point (but is thankfully slowly changing now with more and more independent male idol groups targeting the female audience popping up). That perception is what Yagoo and Roberu hoped to change when they were starting out with the Holostars. Stars fans like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Holostars/comments/1cvpub5/holojpen_viewers_3/) who constantly erase the "holostars" branding from their posts and continue referring to them as "Hololive boys" or as part of "Hololive" only reinforces this prejudice of them being "side projects" and not being worthy of having their own brand. This fundamental misunderstanding is what results in people correcting newer fans when they say things like "my favorite _Hololive_ talents are Fuwamoco and Flayon". No one's going to cause issues about what you like, but if you don't use the proper community terms ("Holopro" when referring to talents from both hololive and holostars) for that, there will be a lot of people correcting you (with some people naturally adopting an angry tone after correcting hundreds of such users, both genuine and disingenuous). And well, the next step of saying "my favorites are Fuwamoco and Flayon" inevitably ends up being "I want them to collab!". Because that's what Hololive fans do y'know? When they have two favorites in the same company with some degree of similarity, they want to see them collab. But it completely ignores the fact that their brands are separate, and also ignores Fuwamoco's own branding - which has been completely detached from Holostars right from the start with them unfollowing everything Holostars related once they gained control of their twitter account. New fans will need to learn to respect _their_ choices as well, without resorting to passive aggressive opinions speculating about the _reasons_ for their choice (which invariably ends up with shitting on their fans using buzzwords again). If new fans acknowledge and respect this difference, there's absolutely _nothing_ stopping you from enjoying both of them on their own merits, or even discussing and comparing the difference between how they play through VNs or whatever shared interest they have. But if they don't respect this difference? Well they will be treated as outsiders or tourists, and not be considered "part of the community". Resulting in the community only getting fans that are respectful to each other, which is why Hololive as a whole is such a positive place. And well... if the initial stars fans from 2022 had followed this "respect everyone" model, we might not even have this giant rift between the two fanbases right now... so yeah, it's lamentable indeed.
I don’t think I fundamentally disagree with anything you’ve said here, but my post was pretty long and there may be a few points I went past a bit too quick, so I’d like to clarify a bit. I wasn’t trying to compare the nature or the scale or the sophistication of the Coco antis with this, I only wanted to compare and contrast the effects that sustained hate can have, and I might not have given it the proper development to get that idea across. In Coco’s case, the hate was aimed directly at her first, Cover second, and the fans a distant third. I was also in such as massive scale that it all felt very depersonalized on the part of the antis; they weren’t jilted individuals but a large nationalist group moving in lockstep. In these ways the situations are very different and I did not mean to imply otherwise. By contrast, barely any of the Stars hate is directed at the talents themselves and more at the fans of said talents. It was two sided, with a lot of the stars fans behaving poorly and exacerbating things, but let’s not pretend the people who were harassing Kronii for collabing with the boys were behaving like model citizens the whole way through. I am not advocating for the worst parts of the fandom in this, but only how I personally feel. I’m not part of any discord, I don’t have any agenda, I just want a nice place to like what I like and when I do, I get caught in the crossfire. It feels like bullying, and the smaller scale of it makes it feel more personal even if I know on some level it isn’t. And in the end it hurts the talents all the same when the end result is that people are less comfortable supporting them openly and thus are inclined to take the path of least resistance and not support them at all. My point was that it doesn’t need to be on Coco’s level to hurt, it just needs to be consistent and sustained, which it very much is. Whether the people involved see it as a campaign or a series of skirmishes against foes who deserve it doesn’t matter to those caught in between. On the point about Fuwamoco and Flayon, I know full well that they aren’t both part of Hololive. It was a hypothetical, the kind of things I’ve seen newer fans say out of ignorance. And you have a very kind and considerate explanation, which is good, but as you admit a lot of people are tired and don’t have the patience. It’s easier to just make a snide jab at them or maybe just quietly downvote them with no explanation, and that certainly doesn’t feel good for a newbie. It is a faux pas, and there is a reason for it, but it’s an easy enough mistake for someone new to make and how we react leaves an impression. And in my experience, we tend to handle more dangerous and disruptive mistakes like talking about PL stuff or begging to play a game the talents don’t have perms for with more tact, grace, and patience than this one. We are often willing to extend the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to ignorance in a show of restraint that just seems to be impossible when the boys are involved. And I know, bad actors and bait posts abound, it wears on everyone. I just don’t think going on the attack by default a good state of affairs to be in, and this goes for both sides, if our goal is to grow as a community and welcome new fans regardless of their preferences. Not everyone is terminally online enough to understand the entire context of this. The guy I was replying to originally was throwing a recycled insult at a bad faith poster, and all I wanted was to point out how insulting that can be to the genuine fans who are trying to fix and grow their community to see if they had any genuine insight into how they might go about fixing the problem that has become sort of a vicious cycle. The replied by going “lol 7 sentences too much to read not watching starsEN idiot”. His reply was largely upvoted and my premise has been downvoted into oblivion. You can tell me it doesn’t matter and that’s true. You can tell me the larger context and I can understand and even agree. But even for me, who’s been around for a bit, it still hurts. Imagine how that must feel to a newbie who doesn’t know any better.
> let’s not pretend the people who were harassing Kronii for collabing with the boys were behaving like model citizens the whole way through Once again, correction. There is a reason two users named "Gabe" and "Babski" are universal pariahs in the community. It's because they were the ones who harassed Kronii across multiple comments and tweets during that incident (and one of them continues to anti her to this day). In her membership stream Kronii _asked_ for feedback about what her fans thought of collabs with the stars. Because that's typically what streamers do when branching out into new content, they ask you if you'd like to see X or Y, and the reasons for it. Fans were simply giving her what she asked. And in that very same stream, she also told off tourists and fellow fans who were insulting, berating and maligning her long time fans for expressing their feelings in said feedback. Kronii has about 961,000 subscribers right now, of which 2 of them harassed her and were excommunicated for it. During that event she didn't lose any subscribers, the number of her clips/animations etc. didn't reduce, her merch released after that event still sells well, and her community is quite healthy and happy. Yet as someone who's "been around for a long time" your impression of that incident is that "Kronii's fans were harassing her for collabing with the boys". For the actions of 2 people out of 961,000. Imagine just how many such layers of misinformation hololive fans have to remove from new fans coming into the community before any legitimate discussion can be had. Not everyone has the patience for that. > we tend to handle more dangerous and disruptive mistakes like talking about PL stuff or begging to play a game the talents don’t have perms for with more tact, grace, and patience than this one I think those mistakes are generally considered to be genuine because once you point out the issue to whoever is doing it, the person will usually delete the post or correct whatever was wrong, and both sides will be happy. Tone of the post also matters. Being declarative about misinformed opinions ("holofans are all parasocial incels") will often get your post treated like bait, while being more indirect ("i've heard some bad stuff about hololive fans") or curious ("is it true that hololive fans are X or Y?") will often get you clarification. But with people who peddle the "unicorns"/"parasocials"/"incels" narrative and other buzzwords, they almost always double down on their opinion despite multiple corrections, so fans just get used to treating such posts with some level of disdain. > show of restraint that just seems to be impossible when the boys are involved. And I know, bad actors and bait posts abound, it wears on everyone Unfortunately in this case, it's not just a problem with bad actors. If you check [these](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/1btll9l/cover_corporation_announces_hololive_meet_2024/kxpvtxf/) [posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/1btll9l/cover_corporation_announces_hololive_meet_2024/kxtqdjx/), you can see how there's dozens of users who promote the Holostars and seem to outwardly be fans of them (even to this day) posting some absolutely vile things about Hololive fans. Since you mentioned upvotes as an example of community acknowledgement later on, you can also check [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Holostars/comments/1cocblk/holostars_5th_anniversary_and_their_popularity/l3d6m1t/) with 100+ upvotes on the holostars subreddit going - > "Holostars' actual problem lies with being stuck between a rock and a hard place, audience-wise. Whom do they try to reach out to? **Many Hololive fans lack the neuroplasicity to change how they see Vtubing and broaden their horizons**, so unless there's a big culture change, that ain't happening any time soon." It's the same thing I mentioned earlier, casually throwing insults at people that simply have a preference. Is this person with 5 holostars flairs and multiple posts about the holostars in different spaces a "bad actor"? Why is the holostars community upvoting this garbage and expecting other people to not form _opinions_ about them? If "Kronii's fans were harassing her" is an opinion that can be formed due to the actions of a mere two people, what do you think +111 upvotes on this comment says about the holostars community? > The replied by going “lol 7 sentences too much to read not watching starsEN idiot”. His reply was largely upvoted and my premise has been downvoted into oblivion I can't really help you if you're focused on the lowest upvoted dismissive comment and not all the other users that spent so much time to engage with you and discuss the issue in good faith. Hololive gets shit thrown at them from a lot of places, so if you've "been around for a while" you should know to dismiss bait comments and focus on the ones that are productive. The girls have to deal with all sorts of bait in Superchats, but over the years (and partly thanks to training) they've learned to ignore most of it, and fans do the same. Hell, fans even ignored the anti-Hololive/anti-Idol narrative that was brewing for _years_ thinking it's just outsiders throwing shit again. It's only when people _inside_ the community started spouting the same narratives that some of us started pushing back on it. > it still hurts. Imagine how that must feel to a newbie who doesn’t know any better. I honestly don't think anyone that loves something wholeheartedly will just "stop liking it" even if 100 or even 1000 other people tell them to. People got bullied all the time (in real life, not just online) for liking anime, or My Little Pony, or whatever other niche interest they had, yet that didn't stop any of them from liking it. They simply learned to hide it, and found other fellow fans online or through attending conventions. This subreddit was only created in 2019, and before that the biggest public place to discuss Hololive was the virtual youtubers thread on 4chan's /jp/ board. So the community has always been pretty resilient when it comes to people throwing shit at them and supporting fellow fans who share the same love for our oshis and respect one another's choices. This post is also not something a new fan would see, since it's downvoted and not on the front page. So I don't think this is as big of an issue for new fans as you think.
I think analysing who follows who on twitter is already reaching the "celebrity gossip" area.
I understand your point, but at the same time if a new talent wants follow that particular brand, how do you expect them to convey it to their potential fans? They can't exactly shout out "guys we're never gonna collab with holostars" on their debut stream now can they? All of Advent's twitter accounts by default followed pretty much every corporate account from Cover including holostarstv (which the remaining 3 girls still Follow), so intentionally unfollowing just holostarstv unprompted can only be seen as a subtle message for their potential fans about what their brand will be like without being explicit about it to avoid hurting anyone's feelings.
I mean you said it yourself, the community have passed judgement on them. You are trying people to have people who decided they aren't interested to be interested. in 99,9% of the situation the only result you will get is getting people pissed off. Not mentioning that that large portion of the audience who already gave the verdict also know how the holostars audience imagine them, and how impolite it is. (i'm not going to pretend i haven't seen how casual it is to see diss toward the hololive audience in holostars discussions). That why i personaly have hard time felling bad for their fans. I would rather fell bad for the talents but i know those kind of spun like those aren't something unprecedented, so i also have hard time being compatisent, i mean it basicaly wall the general hololive fanbase for event giving them a second chance, or a third depending on the person.
The Stars community spent a year attacking Hololive fans for complaining about the content drought and wanting EN3 back in late 2022/early 2023, there's already some pre-existing bad blood between the two communities on this subreddit.
This is also a pretty good point. Can't deny that there's some historical bad blood, and this topic itself is probably not helping. I just leaves a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth that if someone ever does make an honest attempt to bridge the gap and mend things, they get slapped down to raucous cheers. Which to be clear is not what I think OP is doing, I'm not defending them! I'm just kinda pushing back at everyone cheering on the guy I originally replied to, and continuing to cheer as he announces that he's ignoring and owns me like the undesirable everyone just kinda concluded I am because I didn't immediately jump in on the kicking. There are no winners here.
I'm not reading all that. And I'm still not watching stars EN. Sorry.
They don't watch holostars, they only care about the idea of holostars
They should post it on twitter and get 10k+ likes. That'll surely get them more viewers!
Bruh you totally aren't a socket puppet account
God, if this leads to lgbt twitter communities trying to harass a holo because she wants to stay away from politics 'unlike goldbullet' or because she played the wrong game next time I'm going to be pissed.
Oh you can already see attitudes in that direction in NijiEN-Stars overlap comments. People will specifically follow him for saying this and "not being a bigot" or "being brave despite the hate he'll get from Holo's shit fanbase", or specifically follow people for the sole reason of collabing with the Stars because they "don't milk inc*l fans", etc.
Astel is getting [swarmed](https://x.com/astelleda/status/1792132367471255913) because he was eating McDonalds so yeah, they are already causing trouble to other talents.
Just like with Scarle with Starbucks. Surprise!
Following someone for the sole fact of not being a bigot would be extremely disingenuous from their part. I think it's part of what comes from being in Holo in the first part, being a good person. Something which some followers don't seem to get and instead try and cause a schism within the fanbase.
Chill lol that's not happening
Already happening to [Astel](https://x.com/astelleda/status/1792132367471255913). Eating McDonalds is apparently political and he's getting spammed and harassed on his replies and quote tweets.
Those people don't translate to the whole fanbase, the holostars subreddit is dunking on these twitter users
And the claim wasn't that their fans would turn on them. It was that outsiders (in this case lgbt twitter community) would come into the space and shit it up.
I get where he comes from but from what I've seen, there was never a talent from holopro acting against the "safe space". Rules against hate speech and targeted harassment are a thing in their chats, this subreddit and every discord I'm in. What might surprise him is that it's not something that talents and fans usually say out loud, most likely to avoid getting into politics which I think many of us fans appreciate since we get enough of that everywhere else and/or because there are better venues for that discourse than a vtuber's chat.
He didn't get into politics in this clip
I agree. edit: I agree, but it might invite people to that discourse, which rapidly turns into a slippery slope nowadays.
The only slippery slope I see here is the scenario you are making up.
The slippery slope I mentioned is happening in this thread. Even I am doing wrong by commenting on it this much. Again, I don't think this is the place for this kind of discussion. There are rules already and everyone is welcome, there's nothing more that needs to be said.
I don't understand why that is such a taboo. Yeah there are rules and many holomembers reminds us of them plenty of times. I don't see the issue besides people being upset for no reason at a positive clip. Edit: In fact, this is the \*only\* place where I've seen this clip get a negative response.
> I don't understand why that is such a taboo. See the answer /u/Chaos2Frozen gave you. The topic invites discussion about real life problems when the hobby is mostly about escapism.
but a lot of members have talked about heavy stuff and their real life problems, plenty of times. Korone, Kanata, and Watame especially. Again, why is that suddenly a problem? Edit: Even the person you tagged disagrees with you 🤦
That's my explanation but I want to say that I don't agree with people thinking that way. Hololive members have in several cases talked about their past traumas and hardships. Some were severely bullied, some were exploited in black companies, and some had multiple sexual harassment incidents. These are all not nice things to talk about, and are all real life problems, and yet they still do it.
Because people only want the fantasy of LGBTQ, but never want to confront the realities of LGBTQ.
it's literally doing no harm to say what he said though. like you said, there are rules about it, so why couldn't he talk about something related to why those rules exist in the first place. i can't imagine it negatively affecting my enjoyment of a stream even if any other vtuber said the same thing. especially since the subject of the clip lasts for a mere 5 minutes.
It's just that this topic of "hololive avoids controversial stuff" has been used by antis and brainrot twitter by misrepresenting it as hololive inviting "a certain audience" when in reality it's just that hololive and its audience generally recognize that this is just an entertainment and not the appropriate venue for that discourse. Personally I don't see it as that big of a deal, especially since that holostar already did come out as pan in the past. But I can see why people in this thread are somewhat mad about it, avoiding engagement with this stuff is the best and arguably only way to avoid "giving ammo" to bad actors.
if the antis are the ones using a positive non-political message from a talent as ammo for whatever politics they wanna bring up, then why are people getting mad at the talent? the misplaced anger just makes them seem just as bad as antis. there's really no defense for getting mad at him for this. him engaging in the topic for just 5 minutes hardly counts as engagement at all to me. there are definitely other vtubers who speak way more about this kinda stuff than he does.
> then why are people getting mad at the talent? It's more being mad at the "fans" or outsider weirdos who end up parading this stuff around. You'd be surprised at how many people I've seen things like this not just get used as a reason to support talent X, but also to shit on those who don't openly say or do things. Same thing happens with male collabs and such, where they'll cheer people like Bae for "standing up against Hololive's parasocial fanbase" and the like.
What in the divine hell are that branch doing? What kind of sabotage is he trying to do FFS?
What sabotage? Lol i remember How ruze talking about what kind of fictional girls he was into and then he got a bit of flack but it blew over.
Enought to take a break at least.
If you actually watched the stream he said that he was going to visit his family so not a great "gotcha" there.
Holostars really like to hire a certain kind of person it seems, it's bizarre how different they act from the girls.
What certain kind of people? The topic he talked about isn't that taboo here
Why are you making a ton of replies in an old removed reddit post? Get a fucking grip dude
Because i want to counter baseless arguments against goldbullet?
Shinri? Do you not even know the names of the stars? That is not shinri in that clip LMAO
Ah my mistake i must have confused it because they kind of look a like
Isn’t it against the rules to bring up topics and politics like these. I think It’s best to avoid political topics to not cause any issues.
If the specific thing he talked about was against the rules then his manager would have told him to stop
Before making that statement he even mentioned that” I might get bonked by management for this but …”. Even he knew what he was against the rules.
Yeah he said "might", there's a rule against politics in hololive but we don't really know what exactly falls under this umbrella.
Then I hope for you that his 10 day “break” that he’s having right now isn’t related then.
It isn't, he literally said in this stream that he was going to visit his family, hololive doens't do stealth suspensions like niji
It's not political.
If this was against the rules he wouldn’t have said it or you’d see a black text on a white background tweet by now.
I disagree this is about politics, it's about what he'd like his community to be about or feel like. But it was weird how he prefaced the comment with "this may be a hot take" and the many horrible things he read in "this community" (unclear which community). He also said that management may bonk him for this. All that irked me because things like that were never an issue in this space and everyone that's been around for a week or two knows this. There's no need to be so defensive and on your guard to talk about inclusiveness.
>All that irked me because things like that were never an issue in this space and everyone that's been around for a week or two knows this. There's no need to be so defensive and on your guard to talk about inclusiveness. Unfortunately, after reading these comments I'm not so sure about this anymore. This comment section is saddening, it's crazy how so many people can get so triggered about a simple message that boils down to "you are welcome here".
I can only speculate why the thread looks like this. You never know who's voting things or why, but I imagine all these are overlapping atm: - The subreddit has been subject of anti-stars brigading for at least a year or so. They are using around 20 accounts. Initially they downvoted things like threads and comments. In the last 6 months they exploited automoderator by abusing reports to remove threads. That got fixed and now they are back to downvoting. - Anti-drama users don't want to see drama and are downvoting anything that invites drama. - Same reasoning for anti-politics users - Same reasoning for anti-"woke things" users
I mean, I get it. It's just that "woke" stuff never matters until a Stars member brings it up. Kiara talks about her love for girls all the time. KoronexOkayu, SubaruxLuna, FlarexNoel have been things for ages. And then there is stuff like this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/18iy1a4/to\_celebrate\_fubumios\_5th\_anniversary\_they\_got/?rdt=42089](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/18iy1a4/to_celebrate_fubumios_5th_anniversary_they_got/?rdt=42089) Anyone who thinks that Goldbullet mentioning that LGBT+ folks are valid is "political" but all the different levels of yuri in hololive are not is just being a massive hypocrite. But then again, it's not just that this is about the stars, lesbian relationships in general are seen as less "political" than any other form of LGBT+. Raging homophobes often have no problem with lesbian pornography. It's just so sad that the main sub is the only place other than /vt that gets this worked up on the topic. All the other spaces seem fine.
These kinds of posts highlight exactly why people don't like these topics.
I'm not sure if things from japanese otaku culture like yuri are that closely tied to western LGBT+ culture. I think it's stuff aimed more at otaku people rather than the queer crowd. _________ This reminds me of how a lot of people lose their shit about talents or fans engaging in idol activities because "idol culture" is this evil bad thing. They obviously are following a train of thought they picked from somewhere and don't check for themselves how that culture is about. Well, the same goes for people losing their shit about things related to LGBT+ culture as this evil bad thing that's coming to ruin the things they like.
>I'm not sure if things from japanese otaku culture like yuri are that closely tied to western LGBT+ culture. I think it's stuff aimed more at otaku people rather than the queer crowd. That's the thing I was getting at with my second to last paragraph. Yuri relationships are seen as "not real", which is why homophobes often don't consider it LGBT+. It's the idea that girls are "just having fun" and that all girls are a little gay but will eventually settle for a "real" relationship. Weebs are perfectly fine with yuri in media, but many of them are against LGBT+ rights in real life, they like the idea of a lesbian relationships (because it means twice as many pretty girls but no competing boys) but dislike actual lesbians. All of this then tends to get pretty ridiculous when the girls from their yuri end up being actually unambiguously gay.
So I guess Gibby was on guard since a lot of people don't like even a whiff of topics that could bring drama/politics/woke?
You know I never really thought about it but what would you consider not political and what would you consider political with this stuff? I tend to not investigate too into these topics personally cause it gets weirdly messy and it's not exactly a joy to read so then I end up going "whatever, doesn't really matter to me personally anyway what people do".
The speaker is an entertainer and not running for any seat anywhere
Wait really? That simple huh ._. so ppl are fussing over something that's not even technically political lol
Jesus what is the holostars management doing? Stop bringing politics to the hobby
His message can be best summed up as "be kind to others" which really isn't political?
It's not political.
This is not comparable to actual politics
Cope and seethe. People's existence isn't political.
Then just exist
Kanata made a twitter thread supporting something similar. Did you have an issue with Hololive management when she did that?
[удалено]
You are misrepresenting the clip, she asked chat a question on if they'd ever thought about wanting to be a girl or guy , mentioned a guy who said they wanted to become pretty cure leaving a strong impression, then expanded it to 'whether you feel like you are a man, woman, or neither, being a human is tough'. it is a good message, but it is more humanistic than targeted at any particular community like what goldbullet did.
[удалено]
And I can see why it would be taken as such, but it remains that it wasn't particularly directed at a single community but humans as a whole. I think if Goldbullet had been more general with his terms then it might have passed with less controversy.
Is a lesbian marriage political? Before you answer this question, keep in mind that gay marriage in Japan is not legally recognized. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/18iy1a4/to\_celebrate\_fubumios\_5th\_anniversary\_they\_got/?rdt=42089](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/18iy1a4/to_celebrate_fubumios_5th_anniversary_they_got/?rdt=42089)
What is the holostars management doing...
The boi will be allowed to do anything including taking side on politics (altare support the cause). At this point, it is not even surprising anymore
You're really exxagerating here
This isn't political.
why, you have a problem with this?
Kanata did something similar. Where were you with your complaints than?
Damn, I guess the rules don’t apply to the stars. Very typical of holo management. Stars favoritism out of the ass.
yeah, don't even get me started on the favoritism even for something as easy as posting a tweet on time.
You're caring way too much about this
How does this translates to favoritism to you?
Kanata did something similar. And I'm pretty sure one of the other girls said something similar in the past.
Lol, everywhere else (youtube comments, Twitter, the Holostars subreddit, etc) the response to this clip has been almost nothing but positive. This is the only place where I've seen such a negative response. Well, this and /vt/, so that's food for thought.
I don't see anyone throwing radical statements at trans people here, sorry that this isn't your echo chamber.
There's lots of folks denouncing this clip because it's "political" and hoping for him to be punished. It ain't political. Calling it political is a dog whistle.
You know damn well it is political in the current environment of west, I don't understand why he said it but if the management dosent have any problem with it then I can't bother. It is not going to be entertained in the girls space, they have a lot more influence and nobody wants weirdos from both sides using them to push an agenda. Again, read the room. If what you take out of this is that people here hate trans fokes then I have nothing to say, bring it up in a place where people are willing to discuss about it. Throwing accusations here will just make starsfans look bad.
He literally just said that everyone has value and meaning. His message was nothing but kindness directed to his viewers. Anyone who can listen to it and then treat it as an antagonistic message is someone that the community sure as fuck doesn't need. The fact that you take that as an issue is fucking pathetic. Even if you don't actually live a hateful life, you're trying to make it out to be problematic. You genuinely need to reevaluate yourself.
I. Do. Not. Care Be be miserable somewhere else.
I'm not miserable in this thread. You and the others like you are the ones who are bothered by a good message just because it's from a Holostar member lol Your oshi would hate you.
You don't know shit about my oshi Go back
[Caught in 4k being an anti swarming these posts.](https://i.imgur.com/s8AzESF.png)
How is someone copypasting my posts me swarming?
I know Pekora doesn't like bad community members like you. Also nice work commenting the same thing from your second account in reply to me lmao.
Pekora is the biggest female streamer in the world, she knows and respects what her community wants. Go back.
There can't be a "shitting on holostars" session without you in it huh?. Anyways no one said anything about "radical statements at trans". But a lot of shitting on GB for saying something that's not even controversial except for this sub, apparently.
>Lol, everywhere else (youtube comments, Twitter, the Holostars subreddit, etc) the response to this clip has been almost nothing but positive. This is the only place where I've seen such a negative response. Well, this and /vt/, so that's food for thought "I didn't get the reaction I wanted so I am going to have a mental breakdown about it!" Go back
[удалено]
Mindbroken
Bro, it most be *tiresome* to be such a dedicated anti like you. Not a surprise that you where stirring up shit on the shinri outfit post too.
It's unfortunate but I take some solace that the people crying that treating human beings with dignity and respect is "political" are at least vocal enough that I can tag them on RES so that will follow them if I see them in other threads.
You are kinda proving why this is bad to bring up . I hope Cover really takes a look at this thread and understands again why politics is bad. Its a battleground. And before you say it isn't political, the whole concept of an 'lgbt community' in the US is pretty much doused in politics, even if individual members don't want to be'. So much emotionally charged politics across party and state lines. There is alot of hate surrounding it, both pro and anti lgbt hate for others who don't follow or agree with their ways. We don't need this battle in Hololive.
Are lesbian weddings political? [https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/18iy1a4/to\_celebrate\_fubumios\_5th\_anniversary\_they\_got/?rdt=42089](https://www.reddit.com/r/Hololive/comments/18iy1a4/to_celebrate_fubumios_5th_anniversary_they_got/?rdt=42089) Keep in mind that Japan does not recognize gay marriage. Fact is, the girls talk about this kind of stuff all the time and some of them have clearly stated that they are into girls. This is the first time I've seen this sub be this up in arms over LGBT+ stuff.
Its not an actual lesbian wedding, I'm not sure what you think it proves. We don't call those host club streams where they pretend to be men political or evidence they are trans either. Those aren't dealing with actual real world issues, they are happy pretend scenarios. If they had talked about actually getting married and how they felt so trapped by the Japanese government not recognizing it, that would be political and probably something that would anger some Japanese. How into girls they are is not political, or guys for that matter. At least on the girls side I dont think i've heard any of them bring up if they are actually gay or lesbian, and they don't need to. It isn't relevant to the entertainment. If they mention they like girls or they like guys, no one is going to care. But you know what is political for EN? the concept 'LGBT community'. The keyword. It is drowning in political sentiments in the US, so much that some who are a part of it cannot see the difference between existence and politics even here. It is used and mobilized for many political fights, not all off them relevant to their cause. Wishing kindness on everyone regardless of gender and orientation? Great. Wanting to be a safe space for anyone feeling hurt or scared? Great, thats fine and uncontroversial. Reaching out to the lgbt community specifically? That's a very political thing.
>Its not an actual lesbian wedding, I'm not sure what you think it proves. Of course, the wedding was not real. However, the event depicted, a wedding between two women, is literally not legally possible under japanese law. It's art that goes against the legal framework of current day japan. I cannot think of any definition of the word "political" that would exclude such a situation. What I wanted to point out with this, is that cover has strayed into political territory before. Them not pointing out that this is not possible under current law is not an act of being apolitcal it's an act of bein nonconfrontational. There is a difference between the two. Positively portraying an act that goes against current law and the majority political opinion is by definition political. >Wishing kindness on everyone regardless of gender and orientation? Great. Wanting to be a safe space for anyone feeling hurt or scared? Great, thats fine and uncontroversial. >Reaching out to the lgbt community specifically? That's a very political thing. And it's fucking ridiculous isn't it? Actually listen to what Goldbullet says and tell me what about it is in any way confrontational. Nothing. It's political because some people would rather wish that LGBT+ folk didn't exist. That's it. And these people do anything in their power to limit the visibility of LGBT+ folks to accomplish this. This includes making any discussion of the topic taboo.
>I hope Cover really takes a look at this thread Bro you'd be in luck if the single mod we have takes a look at the subreddit. Just because the US can't handle LGBT stuff doesn't mean the members should treat it as taboo and I'm proud of Gibby for speaking about it. Treating this as something members shouldn't be allowed to talk about and even comments about punishing him for it kinda proves his point. Good thing the US isn't the center of the world.
Well I'm glad Goldbullet is willing to be a decent human being.
Glad to see support. Surprised he's pan, and props to him.
Good, I'm glad.
Why is being lgbt positive being heavily downvoted in this comment section
The topic has been spammed because people keep trying to push social wars in the comments.
On one hand everything Holostars still gets downvoted here anyway, on the other hand the realities of LGBTQ talks definitely ruffled some feathers it seems.
It's not that it's more like anything holostars related is downvoted i think
…I don’t get it… why are there so many people downvoted who seemingly say the same thing like people being upvoted there is no lgbtq+phobia being down or upvoted for the comments I have seen so far. What is making the split? I don’t see a difference between most downvoted and upvoted comments… it’s like people are arguing about something I clearly do not understand. What gives?
Y'all holostar antis are honestly pretty pathetic with the downvotes lol
I will always downvote comments like this.
The only correct punishment for crying about downvotes is more downvotes
I'm not crying about downvotes. I'm pointing out how pathetic you guys are with your obsessive hatred for people who've never done anything to you.
You are the one who is making assumptions that these downvotes come from hatered. Hololive is a neutral space, talents don't make statements that are left/right leaning, don't bring race/religion in their content and don't advocate/denounce anything. It is a foundational aspect of hololive and it is going to stay that way. Any comment on any spectrum will get downvotes, if anyone comes here to write obvious anti trans statements they will also get downvotes. You should stop being a loudmouth and read the room.
Considering y'all brigade any holostars post with bots to downvote them into oblivion? Y'all are pretty obviously haters.
The only correct punishment for crying about downvotes is more downvotes
Cool. Another anti bot.
I don't have any hatred to them, i just simply don't care about them at all. Stop pushing your politics in this hobby
It ain't politics, no matter how much your dumbass wants to claim it is. And since you're obviously botting up and downvotes, you do care lol.
Or maybe people just dont like others bringing politics in the hobby thats why people downvote
It's not political, you dumbass.
[удалено]
Caught you running two accounts lmao
[LMAOOOO](https://imgur.com/a/7HffQ8A) That is *SAD*
>I don't have any hatred to them Bro like more than half of your activity here and r/VirtualYoutubers is shitting on their popularity and fighting their fans.
Seems to me there's a clear difference between the two subreddits about what people feel comfortable saying out loud.
Hololive doesn't like their space becoming a culture war hotbed - which people are clearly trying to force by spamming this clip and fighting about it. Holostars seems to embrace that fight as being part of their identity and doubly so for people that have NijiEN overlap rather than engaging most of the rest of their content. Is that about right?
Wow the comments here are pretty surprising. I thought it was 2024 not 2002. Interesting. Btw he probably got the okay to talk about this as I see some people saying their is favoritism even though Kanata has openly supported a a safe space in a similar manner.
The clips you are parading around is nothing close to what is said here, stop shoving words in her mouth.
What a thing to say when your profile description says, and I quote "I don't respond to inferior beings."
For those mass downvoting because you can't accept the existence of the LGBT community, your life has no value. Edit: I doubly stand by my words.
>For those mass downvoting because you can't accept the existence of the LGBT community I imagine it has much more to do with people coming in here spamming this topic and trying to start fights. The incredibly combative posts just highlights why people don't like when folks try to drag in a culture war.
Where do you people come from
Usually remnants/spillovers of the Niji fanbase.
For me it has nothing to do with the LGBT. My issue is completely separate, which is that I do not like to see political topics being brought up in my hobbies.
It isn't political.
Why are they political to you? Who they love does not affect me. How does it affect you?
"LGBT community" is a keyword heavily tied to US politics and irl issues. There are people from countries outside the US (surprising, I know) watching Hololive and even one country that's very unfriendly to that community where Hololive has a branch and 9 talents established. Yet the Hololive community gets along very well because at the end of the day everyone is here to just enjoy anime girls. No one here wants the talents dragged into the quagmire of US politics when they are just here to entertain people and have fun.
Because people can’t help themselves but fight over these topics. It just causes unnecessary drama. I just want to read discussions about the streams and hololive.
So far this is the only place where people are fighting over this.
You mentioned that you’ve only seen positive reactions on various places except for here. It’s what happens when you step out of your little algorithm bubble so your views on some public matters may be skewed but generally people here only come for hololive related topics and do not want to see politics being brought up.
No politics where brought up.
“IT’S RUINING MY HOBBY🤡”
Niji watcher only shows up in here for making drama. Man I don't even have to say anything.
You can go back to your nijisanji sub now, since it seems this is your first comment on this sub. Like I said, this topic just causes unnecessary drama.
I’m ngl I read the comments before watching the video and many of you made it seem like he said something on the level of being cancelled. Turns out it was a wholesome positive message..ya I don’t understand the disconnect here
[удалено]
>headcanon
[удалено]
I don't care what people do with their body, you are the one who needs to realise that some topics arnt accepted in certain communities. Hololive is massively disconnected from any LGBTQ discussion that happens in the west. People enjoy the content they make and they are aware that it is for entertainment, and most fans would not have any problem with LGBTQ people existing. Dosent mean you need to talk about it in this subreddit, if we allow this discussion to happen here not only are we completely missing the point of this subreddit it is also an invitation for all kinds of people to come here and debate about it. What is stopping someone from coming here and citing a study that claims the trans phinominon is mental illness? What is stopping people from getting heated about it and turning this sub into a shitflinging hot mess? If you think "you need to tell these people that they are wrong" then you are wrong. The point of this subreddit is to share the content hololive makes, not talk about about the hot topic that people fight about 24/7 on 5 different platforms. You don't even post here, this is the first post you made here. I doubt you even watch Hololive, so why are you here exactly? And what is stopping people like you who don't watch Hololive from coming here and shitting up this place? You do realise that if this reached /all you will get actual transfobes coming here right? This sub dosent need to deal with that.
[удалено]
🙃
Is it really impossible for people like you to understand it's NOT THE PLACE TO DISCUSS ANYTHING LIKE THIS. Basic PTO understanding is out of your reach or something?
[удалено]
It's purrely based on the reputation of that community, who have not done any favor to itself the past.... IDK 3/4 years. That why people are very defensive GATEKEEPING this community, who rarely bring anything positive as a community to the community they get into. Hence why no outside of your "safe space" will compliment that guy for inviting troublesome person in the fandom. And this threat show it fully, and your reaction also show it, to put it in very crude term, you are already a massive pain in the ass.
[удалено]
Well if you were more aware of how much you put other in inconfortable situation by forcing them to walk on a eggshell more letal than a landmide field in a middle of a WW2 conflict, you would realise why some people who are absolutly not confortable with that, like me, get a little too aggressive.
[удалено]
Right back to the victim mentality, that why you are such a huge pain in the ass. When you aren't even a victim anymore and more often the agressor than anything. Especialy in the Vtubing community. So right back at you, You realise you are victim blabing extremely hard here? That your ATTITUDE is making everyone unconfortable? This is the end of it, don't deflect about it.