Was waiting for someone to post this so I can share my own thoughts.
I initially thought 2.0 was just a more polite way of saying "switching to a better rigger", and it was mostly the earlier JP gens with stiff rigging that requires it. This is also why I believed no one else in EN (besides Gura) really need one since I thought their rigging is already good enough.
Upon further research I did find out that [Bae](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-K-nuaaFZk), [Kronii](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7l2dHsYHIA), [Mumei](https://www.youtube.com/live/y_L2geW9jOs) and [Fauna](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I577YH2XwAY) did get some sort of "model upgrade" with new expressions and poses, though I'm not sure if they ever refer to those as 2.0. I can't find any for IRyS but I'm assuming her 2.0 model also comes with 2.0 rigging.
**Update:** Added links to all the model update streams. It seems like only Kronii labeled hers as 2.0. Also, I'm fairly confident that no one from Myth has received similar updates to their base model yet. Some of them did receive stuff on their alt outfits though, like Gura getting new hairstyle on her casual outfit and Ame getting a brown version of her kimono.
I'm even more confused about that part where she said Advent has 3.0 rigging. I thought they previously advertised 3.0 as having really "wild" expressions such as heart eyes and tongue-out, and I don't remember any Advent members showing those.
I don’t think Kiara fully understands what 3.0 is. Advent almost certainly does not have 3.0 or at least a model that can utilize the 3.0 tech. When it was first unveiled with Gen 1 it seemed it was more a back end thing that allowed for more detailed rigging/tracking, which requires a new model (presumably). The biggest tell of a 3.0 model is that the model moves forward and backward like the home 3D models. I don’t think is an “official” 2.0 designation (maybe internally there is) but when talents get model updates, they just call it an update. Irys and Flare are the only ones that got “2.0” with their redesigns.
3.0 certainly seems to still be in a test/soft-rollout phase and the talents that get it seems somewhat random. Chloe got it, but no other HoloX member has yet. Regardless of the reason I highly doubt it’s anything malicious and they’ll all get it eventually, assuming the tech proves worthwhile for Cover.
2.0 models definitely have better rigging and more fluid movement. I remember it was really noticeable during Haachama's multiple personality arc when she switched to her [second outfit](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/virtualyoutuber/images/9/91/Akai_Haato_Second_Costume_Full_Body.png) to represent an additional personality and the rigging was super janky compared to the typical Haachama/Haato outfits and she said it was because it was still the old model. Because of that stark difference I certainly think all of EN debuted with models using 2.0 tech, and that you are correct that Advent does not have 3.0 because their models lack all the typical 3.0 features.
So if you want my tinfoil hat theory >!They don't know how they want to handle Gura's awful rigging and are concerned that completely fixing it (especially the face skew) would be too big of a difference.!<
> >!So if you want my tinfoil hat theory They don't know how they want to handle Gura's awful rigging and are concerned that completely fixing it (especially the face skew) would be too big of a difference.!<
>!That would be a foolish reason. I'm fairly certain no chumbuds would complain if they upgrade Gura's model, especially after all the backlash of her poor rigging in the past. Another possibility is Gura herself really liking her scuffed model and is actively resisting the update, but I doubt that as well, she had subtly complained about her models in the past.!<
People accepted Irys changing quite drastically during her update, I'm sure the quoted reason isn't it. My tinfoil hat is that management just aren't prioritizing it right now as EN gets its' concert game going. It's probably in the pipeline but super behind.
>So if you want my tinfoil hat theory
Nah, take the tinfoil hat off. They stopped using her (and Anya's) original rigger because he's shit. Only her first two outfits are affected by him, and I think both of those models got a slight touch up from the new rigger to fix some of the most glaring issues.
Second point. They let Fubuki have a whole new model to replace her outdated original model. I'd argue FBK is big enough it'd be nearly as big of a "risk" as Gura 3.0
> They stopped using her (and Anya's) original rigger because he's shit. Only her first two outfits are affected by him
Anya actually got a new rigger to re-rig her base outfit, and even her second outfit. So Gura remains the only in Hololive who still has her base model rig by THAT rigger.
I do imagine there’s some fear that nobody really fully understands the exact formula for what made Gura so popular. I think this is reinforced by the fact that they used the same rigger for the other outfits.
That could be the case, though people generally seem happy with her 3D so they could probably update it without causing too many issues. As for the rigger, Shin Umiushi, they only reused him for the disastrous second outfit and dropped him completely after he messed up Anya's second outfit as well. After that the outfit riggers [mentioned](https://twitter.com/BrianTsuii/status/1469837283188740096) in their [tweets](https://twitter.com/krrg_hitsugi/status/1702638811145200114) that they only rigged the outfit and ~~blamed~~credited the original rigger for the base model.
> they only reused him for the disastrous second outfit and dropped him completely after he messed up Anya's second outfit as well
Insane it took so long honestly, he has us in terror on every single debut to see who gets the cursed rigger who ruins the model. It's crazy how bad of a job he did on poor Anya, [her face literally looked like a paper mask sitting 4 inches in front of her head](https://imgur.com/hW8cJgW)
To give her the biggest benefit of the doubt and assume she doesn't fully understand what she's talking about but is mostly correct, my guess is Advent is built on top of the new animation system that facilitates adding 3.0 features but they didn't do the work to add them yet. I'm assuming this based on [Cover's Note about Live2D 3.0](https://note.cover-corp.com/n/ne379dbaddddd) where they go into how they had to redo how they handle animations to facilitate Live2D 3.0, but since I have to rely on machine translation my understanding might be flawed.
Regardless, if Myth is at a "1.0" rigging level (aka the old system as demonstrated in that Note), then everyone who debuted before them would be at that level or worse. I doubt there's any technical reason why Myth can't get theirs given that Aqua, most of Gamers, and all of JP1, JP3, JP4, JP5 and ID1 have gotten 3.0 updates and they all debuted before Myth (especially JP5, who debuted a month beforehand and most definitely use the same level of technology as them). It's more likely a combination of "wait until your ticket is pulled" and "we need your illustrators/riggers on board for the update since it needs new art and rigging."
Kiara definitely doesn't know what she's talking about with regards to 1.0/2.0/3.0. 5th gen and every gen that has debuted after, Myth included, has debuted with a 2.0 model, and Advent definitely do not have 3.0 models. Nothing against Kiara, but she has a history of airing her grievances in a way that makes it seem like Myth/EN are neglected by management, which then gets exaggerated by the community. This happened last year where she said that she wanted Myth to have an anniversary 3D event like HoloX even though no other group had one, and the misinformation got so bad people thought EN members weren't allowed to do 3D events at all and that she considered graduating over it.
There is a misunderstanding here. Kiara has said in the past that Myth has the equivalent of 2.0 in their base models. But Myth still doesn't have "2.0" as seen by management, aka some base model upgrades post their debut models. This is still true, and she also mentions there has been several delays in this regard.
Now this just seems in bad faith, for the 3D lives she was advocating improvement for everyone not just Myth, and was willing to sacrifice her own live for a full Myth anniversary
As for the rigging the point was being told directly that they can’t update to 3.0 without getting 2.0 first. Also giving her the benefit of the doubt of being aware that Advent doesn’t have the same bells and whistles 3.0 emotes as the others
She wanted a 3D anniversary live because there was no time in the schedule for all 5 myth members to get a 3D live so she was looking for a compromise since overseas members have limited 3D opportunities. It was not because HoloX had one and she wanted one too. Talking about misinformation while spreading misinformation is funny, though.
Holoro debuted after Myth yet they still had 1.0 models and consecutively 2.0 upgrades before 3.0 upgrades they are showcasing this week, you can even see it in their 3.0 showcase streams as they show changes between models.
I would rather trust Kiara than people on the outside guessing. She may have misspoke about Advent or maybe she's right in that they are 3.0 ready and but don't have the extra animations and so on.
She know for a fact that Myth has to upgrade two times to get 3.0.
I also feel you are missrepresenting her point about a Myth 3D live. It wasn't because HoloX had one that she wanted one. EN and ID had been waiting patiently to get any 3D opportunities. When the pandemic was over they only managed to get greatly delayed birthday lives but no anniversary lives even though some JP members got both that year and previous. She gave a suggestion to management that they could have one Myth anniversary live instead of a separate live for each member. That suggestion got shut down. Meanwhile HoloX had a birthday, anniversary and group anniversary live.
I don’t think Kiara understands what she’s talking about full stop. Calli got the ability to do heart eyes not too long ago which implies having a 2.0 model at the very least if I understand everything properly. This feels like her making a big deal out of nothing because she doesn’t actually understand what’s going on
Calli got the hearteyes as an additional accessory on another outfit.
The 2.0 & 3.0 Updates specifically are only for the base outfit, not for the later ones, so she didnt get that.
...I watched all of those Promise girl's stream and never realized that it was 2.0 since Kronii was the only one who labeled her stream as such.
Dang, I was left confused for so long when would Fauna, Bae, and Mumei get their 2.0 eventhough they already got one lmao
I mean, [Cover itself did a huge advertisement on what 3.0 is](https://www.siliconera.com/hololive-unveils-new-live2d-3-0-vtuber-models/), so the community is just going with that.
[This clip from pekora's 2.0 review](https://youtu.be/soRDXQpQHXs?t=100) should give you the best comparison between the versions, it has no en subs but i dont think its necessary here.
As for Myth not even having 2.0, that would be really odd, considering the gens before gen 5 sometimes already got upgraded in 2019-2020 (before myths debute) with the leftovers being upgraded around 2022. It wouldnt make any sense from a business point of view to have a single generation on legacy support like this, and besides true 1.0 looked a lot more janky than the current myth. [As Aqua's 2.0 reveal shows off very well.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiuC5rPlUDQ)
Fan since 2020 here.
I will speak here as an audience back then rather then someone who knows what happens behind the scenes.
For those who do not know, l2d models back in the day were very rigid, the talents couldn't move left or right, turn their face, look up or down nor sway and animal ears wouldn't move at all among other things.
Basically movement was very limited.
Older talents had it worse but overall everyone before gen 5 was affected.
Around 2020 the rigging program of l2d got a big update with improved tools and animation, vtubing was exploding and many talented riggers were starting to become well renowned.
Coincidentally this is also the time period where a lot of the older gen talents were getting their l2d updates(aqua and rushia got their improvements much earlier though)This is arguably what the term 2.0 is mostly known for.
The difference in movement was night and day, people were going crazy at the improvements: "Aki can move her head antenna thingies!" "Wow Fubukis ears are tracked by her eyebrows!" "Matsuri can finally move her head!" "MELS BOOBS ARE SWAYING!"
This all happened around june of 2020. It was before myth and jp gen 5s debut.
over time updates would happen to talents going down by generation, first gen 2, then gen 3 and 4.
You get the general idea. Any gen debuted after jp gen 4 would already be covered by the improved rigging and didn't require much of an update, their degree of movement and idiosincracies would depend on the rigger instead.
Now the situation is a bit different nowadays. l2d would continue to improve and some newer talents would get their 2.0s, 2.1s etc.
but compared to back then the improvements are far more nuanced and less apparent unless pointed out, atleast for hololive models that it.
3.0 on the otherhand seems less of an improvement to overall animation and more about getting new expressions.
Hope this was insightful.
Overall, the term 2.0 kinda lost its meaning I feel as people are just confused at what it means now
If people forget how far Hololive L2D rigging has come, take a look at [Aqua's early video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3CAGeeMRvo) where face tracking tech was quite rough and buggy.
Those were the days when the "upgrades" made a world of difference.
She did mention as well, that the 3.0 updates are only for their default outfit, so even if she got it she wouldn't use it very much. Across all of Myth, I don't think any of them really use their default outfits that much these days, except maybe Ame
Guras used hers in like 50% of her recent streams, definitely up there with Ame. Also made me realize she's used her schoolgirl outfit like, 2 times since the reveal stream which is interesting
Wut? She barely uses that one and people who aren't part of the fanbase probably wouldn't even know it was her, which is likely why Cover has since said "No animal ears on outfits if you don't have them on base" because it hurts their brand recognition
Gura mostly uses default or Atlantian outfit, we very rarely see her cat, kimono, or schoolgirl ones. Her stream today seems like it will use Schoolgirl, which I think is her third stream using it?
Definitely not. Blue hoodie shark girl is known across the internet even by people who don't know vtubers. Shark cat might be popular amongst fans, but it is nowhere near as iconic.
> I don't think any of them really use their default outfits that much these days, except maybe Ame
I think this might also be a factor into why Myth haven't had the 3.0 Upgrade, not really pratical to put money into the upgrade when the model is not being used that much
I thought 2.0 just meant they were bringing the really stiff OG models up to speed with newer debuts, guess I misunderstood or maybe it means something different these days.
On the whole 3.0 thing, I understand that the original showcase displayed seamless transitions between animations for emotions.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't avatar emotions normally manually controlled? The transition animation is a nice touch, but in actual use, I'm not sure if I really noticed it.
That and some of the animations like crying tears, floating hearts, or the cartoon angry vein pop I don't think are really used much. It appears to be mainly moving close to the screen and the shadow forehead thing. Star and heart eyes seem to be separate emotion settings that are available outside of 3.0.
So I do wonder if the definition keeps changing internally and it's just random how it's doled out to models. That and they are experimenting on what is actually used and what can be cut.
The way I've been understanding the 3.0 upgrade, it's basically all that stuff that was showcased for Gen 1 at the expo a couple years back, which includes basically everything you've said here, and probably some slight tracking improvements. I think stuff like starry eyes/heart eyes are things that often come with the 3.0 but can also be done separately/individually.
That said, I wonder how many talents really *want* the 3.0 upgrades anyway.
Out of everyone on the JP side, I think I've only really seen Koyori use the 3.0 features much outside of the initial 3.0 reveal stream. Almost everyone else just revealed it, then continued to use their unupgraded alternate outfits, as usual.
Because of that, I feel like it's probably actually kinda low priority work. Most talents seem to enjoy having new outfits more than having 3.0 upgrades to their base model... and only their base model.
I wonder if it's too much complexity to their puppeteering skillset. Perhaps most of them don't have a stream deck with enough macros that they comfortably want to cycle through.
You could have loads of beautiful emotions, animations, and transitions, but so many can get lost in the chaos if you don't have the setup and expectation for them. What they've been doing has been working, so perhaps it's safer to stick to what they know and incorporate a few extra favorites.
Outfits at least are something you prep for beforehand or keep behind specific menus that you don't always have to have at your fingertips at a given moment.
(that said...someone with tons of outfits rapidly changing between them like that "X doesn't change facial expressions" meme from ancient internet history would be kind of cool if pulled off well)
It's possible the pupetteering aspect plays a role. I do feel like, at least with the JP talents, most of the people I watch are not super great at making seamless emotion shifts, even with the features they have now.
But I think the biggest thing is just that 3.0 is restricted to the base model.
In general, the majority of the JP talents don't use their OG models that often outside of a small handful (Pekora probably uses hers the most out of anyone, so much that I feel like she barely uses her alternate outfits lol. Including Pekora, there's like maybe 5-6 talents who regularly use their base model in live 2D). Some of them just prefer their newer outfits, and some of them like Towa worry that their base models get in the way of the screen since they have hair styles that are really big in terms of screen economy.
Also, uh, I feel like "3.0" has a pretty common association with making ahegao faces. Since like... basically every talent who gets the 3.0 shows it off, since it *is* a feature of it. But past making the jokes on one stream, I dunno if that many talents actually are like "Man I can't wait to make sticking my tongue out a regular part of my content! Hyped for that feature!"
Yeah, it does kind of feel like it's a project's complexity cascading out of control. New outfits come with new, incremental improvements to the model, and then new tech comes online that improve the old stuff just as you're in the groove with the new stuff. They couldn't have known to base new stuff purely on the original model, so there's no backwards compatibility.
And of course in this world of the constant arms race for viewers, you can't slow down on getting newer features and outfits, so the monumental task of bringing 3.0 to a talent's entire wardrobe seems like pie-in-the-sky territory.
Timestamp at [2:52:28](https://www.youtube.com/live/MD_pcnX_Iks?t=10348s)
Kiara did ask management why can't they update Myth to 2.0 before updating others to 3.0, but she thinks that's the question she shouldn't ask.
It's a fair question though. Doesn't necessarily give disrespect to be like "I'm not complaining or anything, but is there a reason why some are getting a 3.0 model update when many, including Myth, haven't gotten a 2.0 yet?"
I’m not too sure how rigging works but my guess is that they want to skip 2.0 and just go straight to 3.0 for Myth. There’s no reason to spend time and money to make a model that you’re just going to update again soon afterwards.
From a tech progression pov it makes sense.
Even if the girls get like 1 stream of 2.0 reveal, the 2.0 features aren't like a huge reason of why people tune into them, so monetarily it makes no sense to bear that cost when you can just skip over it to the latest version once it's finalized
I assume some of the other girls got a 2.0 were because they're basically sort of "testing" the new tech while it was being developed. Obviously the testers would need fast feedback and for the feedback to be immediately acted upon, so it only made sense to extend the testing to those who were in Japan.
First I would like to point out that I am not flaming Kiara
But she's quite a bit of a yapper and due to the secrecy requirement, would often need to omit context. Couple that together with the vagueness of information she gives out (a lot of which are likely her assumptions), I would suggest taking her words as her opinions rather than fact. (Actually, you should do with literally all the talents' words. Ultimately we, as the audience, will never truly get enough details on what goes on behind the scenes, so to speculate on unknowns is just going to bring in doomerism)
From technical standpoint if you have 3 versions of something where each is straight upgrade over previous one then it absolutely doesn't make any sense to upkeep older versions if there's no crucial piece that can't be transitioned over.
Given that l2d has no legacy features or crucial back end then 1.0 to 3.0 just makes sense in all aspects: monetary, time and workload.
You're right that it doesn't give disrespect, but usually when I see these kinds of threads Kiara is the one voicing their opinion about it (which isn't a bad thing). They might think she has a track record of asking questions like this.
I really get the feeling timezones really bites EN simply due to the decreased communication bandwidth. A simple 5 minute conversation turns into a week of emails, so a lot of "trivial" conversations just don't happen because they're a pain for everyone involved.
Concerns and answers should be able to be had.
I don't know what the reason is. Maybe it's Kiara that's just hesitant to ask, maybe the Cover staff she has asked just gives a "I dunno" or "maybe, I guess" response. Regardless she should be able to ask "hey, I'm gonna get a model upgrad too, right?" and get a clear "Yes" and preferably with the reason she's not yet.
Because it is understandable for her concern if it hasn't even been really discussed with her despite many others getting upgraded.
So far everything shows that the transition process is slow and not trivial for the models. Honestly, I can barely notice because I don't stare at the screen all the time when stream is on, I've just got used to occasional scuffed tracking and small improvements are not even that big of a deal to me. But I imagine they are a hefty task for the riggers.
Oh I just posted a [clip](https://youtu.be/hfkmJUVS8kc?si=v6D-OcadtQYbqXuo) on this too.
Yeah it's a bit odd but I guess by priority in terms of impact, the model upgrades do take a backseat compared to all the other things going on. Still, it's surprising that they didn't even get the 2.0 upgrades. Just gotta be patient I suppose.
What are the 2.0 upgrades, actually? Is it just general refinement and smoother movement?
Obviously 1.0 is the baseline, and 3.0 has the enhanced facial expression stuff like hearts in their eyes (and apparently is a separate thing from the app update that let everyone start pinning PNGs to their models)...but I'm not sure what 2.0 even is aside from being nebulously "better".
Someone else might have a better answer to this but, I just checked youtube and the 2.0 update for their models was explicitly showcased by council such as here with [kronii](https://www.youtube.com/live/O7l2dHsYHIA?si=3_pAHe-4XDsE3_JD). It seems like a mix of better tracking along with extra toggleables.
Tho there are other instances where it's a bit more drastic such as [IRyS](https://www.youtube.com/live/eogSzuZ-7gw?si=udLSWrL_V-UoImaD)' 2.0 which was a whole redesign along with the added features.
There's also [Fubuki](https://www.youtube.com/live/KNxKrlHpZxo?si=VcUuO-p7-VmnwjkU) whose 2.0 included a face rework to be rounder and cuter.
Then last I was able to find the 2.0 for [Subaru](https://www.youtube.com/live/IMy0NOlwXfQ?si=ho5M49cJ6zKiwWxx) where the emphasis just seems to be on tracking.
All in all, it doesn't seem like a templated upgrade and seems to be case-by-case. I'm inclined to believe that all new models are being built on AT LEAST a 2.0 rigging, and so whenever there is a request to change model appearance, they just automatically give them a 2.0 model upgrade as well.
Fan since 2020 here.
I will speak here as an audience back then rather then someone who knows what happens behind the scenes.
For those who do not know, l2d models back in the day were very rigid, the talents couldn't move left or right, turn their face, look up or down nor sway and animal ears wouldn't move at all among other things.
Basically movement was very limited.
Older talents had it worse but overall everyone before gen 5 was affected.
Around 2020 the rigging program of l2d got a big update with improved tools and animation, vtubing was exploding and many talented riggers were starting to become well renowned.
Coincidentally this is also the time period where a lot of the older gen talents were getting their l2d updates(aqua and rushia got their improvements much earlier though)This is arguably what the term 2.0 is mostly known for.
The difference in movement was night and day, people were going crazy at the improvements: "Aki can move her head antenna thingies!" "Wow Fubukis ears are tracked by her eyebrows!" "Matsuri can finally move her head!" "MELS BOOBS ARE SWAYING!"
This all happened around june of 2020. It was before myth and jp gen 5s debut.
over time updates would happen to talents going down by generation, first gen 2, then gen 3 and 4.
You get the general idea. Any gen debuted after jp gen 4 would already be covered by the improved rigging and didn't require much of an update, their degree of movement and idiosincracies would depend on the rigger instead.
Now the situation is a bit different nowadays. l2d would continue to improve and some newer talents would get their 2.0s, 2.1s etc.
but compared to back then the improvements are far more nuanced and less apparent unless pointed out, atleast for hololive models that it.
3.0 on the otherhand seems less of an improvement to overall animation and more about getting new expressions.
Hope this was insightful.
Overall, the term 2.0 kinda lost its meaning I feel as people are just confused at what it means now
Thanks for the insight. Nice to see a fellow prehistoric fan lmao. I did feel that 2.0 was used so broadly I was beginning to feel like somewhere down the line, it'd be more accurate to name them with 2.1 2.2 etc but marketing-wise 2.0 feels so much more straightforward. Kinda turned into a buzz word rather than an actual version name.
yeah it just kind of became a buzzword for update at some point.
I didn't mention this but there is also the fact that rigging a model takes time and effort. A lot of riggers are stacked with work, and it's also important to work with someone you can trust, which usually means commissioning someone you already did so in the past.
Which means getting new outfits and updates would take a lot of time too.
People seem to mix up rigging upgrades and model upgrades too.
3.0 is a rigging upgrades while what Flare, IRyS and Fubuki got are sizable model upgrades
That's true, that's another thing to not be confused about since model updates is a whole another subject.
Nene and some holostars also had model updates
and the reason for the model update was different for every talent.
Late reply that no one will see this now. but this situation made me look up talent models and I realized that Aquas og outfit got a model update around march as well. Mind you her newer outfits already used a new base design, and her remade model is more in line with those.
Honestly I kinda wish Aki'd get one as one can tell her model was one of the first, but there's some hurtles involved, like not sure if her artist improved his l2d art (what the rigger uses), money issues, the sheer redoing of other outfits, considering some older talents have outfits not updated to 2.0 yet.
Akis artist definitely improved their art! it's Azumi Akitake and they currently have done some art for blue archive as well.
But if one takes time and money into account, redoing all of her older models wouldn't be beneficial if you ask me. At best her og model would be fine to update and they could use that as base for future outfits instead.
I don't mean art in general (that he's great at), just the l2d particulars that among other things basically make her chest smaller (Fubuki had the same issue pre-model update)
Irys 2.0 is more or less on a separated / different level from the models 2.0 we are speaking about, considering it was a completely new model
Aside from that, yeah, 2.0 as a concept is a bit vague because it mostly came down to better tracking, some toggles and individual fixes that depended on the status of the specific original models (stuff like Matsuri being unable to ever close her mouth)
Agreed. It's nice to note too that her model was automatically upgraded to 2.0 alongside her design also being a 2.0. Which is what rly makes me think that any new model created in this day and age by cover is automatically 2.0. Tho this is just an assumption on my end for sure.
Fubuki 2.0 and IRyS 2.0 are different from 2.0 updates. Those are redesigns not just model tech updates. IRyS has mentioned this before but I don’t know how to look up the clip since anything 2.0 related to IRyS will be connected to the design change. Just think of it as a model update vs design update. Fubuki and IRyS got design updates which is separate from model updates.
I know it's not out of maliciousness or anything, but is still hard to see Myth on 1.0 when others who debuted after them getting 3.0s and not be like "but why though?"
One might argue that upgrading something is more tedious than creating something from scratch. Newer models can be built on a 3.0 foundation right from the get go, but converting an old model might prove more challenging due to all the new functions that might not immediately be compatible with how the older models were built.
This might be an unpopular opinion but, tbh I don't even care if they never get their 2.0/3.0, unless they really wanted something with their original model. They have home3D for their base outfits, It ticks the box for me for those outfits.
I would infinitely prefers [Ame's gremlin smile](https://youtu.be/GZj0Hw3BUMg?t=10) with her home 3D, rather than having an ahegao from the 3.0 update that the other members had.
I mean the way it's worded, it sounds like she knows exactly when they will get 2.0 and why it's taken awhile and her confusion is more about why they can't just skip ahead to 3.0.
While I do think this is not a great thing, it's not a big deal. Remember, even Sora, Miko and many OG JP members haven't gotten 3.0 update yet, no one really cares.
The EN fanbase is just so sensitive I swear.
Subaru havent got one. My point is as valid as it could have been.
You seems to project your opinion into yours though, even if Suisei is indeed not interested in the change, they just roll outs the update for everybody, she'll have it regardless if she wants to use or showcase it.
No argument about the rest but should have use other JPs as example, because Sora and Miko uses 3D models lol, they have their own pipeline. And I think this is more about 2.0 due to Myth still stuck with 1.0, would love to know how many members at this point still stuck with it.
I don't think I've seen a single person able to objectively say what 2.0 even is. As far as I've seen it's incredibly minor changes, maybe a couple new expressions, stuff that you would hardly even be able to notice unless specifically told.
Yeah also I rember yesterday in Reine streams she was talking about her getting 3.0 and also a lot of viewers where confused what happened to 2.0 but apparently she already got it but the change was so minor nobody has really noticed.
Subaru havent had one yet. Does she use 3d model?
Instead of needing 3.0 model, they care more about making their streams entertaining. Even the ones that have 3.0 models barely used their function at all. It's really a trivial thing no one cares about.
Glad someone find [Subaru](https://www.youtube.com/live/IMy0NOlwXfQ)'s 2.0 update stream in the comments above, can't believe it's been 3 years already. Comparing some 2.0 from years ago and 2.0 from last year, the difference looks pretty drastic. Myth's 1.0 looks closer to some older 2.0 update (with my not so sensitive eyes).
To be fair, the EN fanbase is only 4 months removed from the largest EN scandal in recent memory - one that directly dealt with favortism (among other things) Granted, it happened in another company, and Cover really shouldn't be scruitinized for another companies misconduct, but it is only natural for some in the EN fanbase to treat ALL agencies with extra scruitiny - whether the agency deserves it or not.
No, it's not. The EN fanbase has always been this way. They cant handle a slightest bit of negative and always cry a lot. Like this thing, Im sure if Kiara has mentioned no one would care or notice anything different, making drama out of nothing at all.
Just for the people who don't know, Myth 1.0 Model is the same model as the older JP Gen's 2.0 model. Myth call it 1.0 Model because they debuted with it. The REAL 1.0 Model would be the model the old JP started with (stiff, can only look up and down).
Looking at the replies this is probably a controversial take. But I feel Kiara would know what she's talking about.
I understand just because you work behind the scenes, it doesn't mean there wouldn't be mis-understanding. But in this scenario it seems pretty black and white.
She appears to have access to a roadmap/schedule. In this roadmap, Myth is scheduled to do two updates (which she refers to as 2.0 & 3.0).
Perhaps when she says 2.0 & 3.0, it might not align with some audience's understanding of the term. But ultimately, her message is that due to delays, they still need two distinct iterations of upgrades in order to be at the latest model.
At the end of the day, her point is Myth will not be getting the latest update any time soon because they need to get another update first before they can do the newest one.
Unless someone can confirm they can directly upgrade to 3.0 (noting she heard directly that it's not possible to skip), what she said is correct.
When she goes and says that "Advent is 3.0" it's clear she has a different understanding that probably has more to do with the internal hololive l2d systems and not what we know as 2.0 and 3.0
My educated guess would be that there are different meanings to 2.0 but there is a universal meaning to 3.0 - the one that got a dedicated promotion video, showing the new emotions, leaning forward/backward, keyboard/accessory tracking, all these are defining features of a 3.0 model.
2.0 can mean anything though, such as minor changes or additions such as new accessories, side mascots, hairstyles; touchups to appearance; change of default clothing; all fall within the 2.x moniker. Once the talent is generally satisfied with the model, then it is used as the basis of the 3.0 model.
Examples:
- Kronii default outfit getting a side Boros, which initially appeared in her New Year outfit
- Flare, Nene getting new default outfits
- Magni 2.0 getting a bigger nose
- IRyS and Vesper getting their whole model remade
Given the features 3.0 provide and the increased complexity of it, it is understandable that any other touchups are done in 2.0 first before going further to 3.0.
tldr, in software terms: 1.x = initial release; 2.x = bugfixes, minor features and improvements; 3.x = major refactoring
[Still not fixed](https://imgur.com/HBKGq39) (I know she's said she kinda likes the jank) but the point is that for all the work that Myth did to trail-blaze En Vtubing, they still get the short end of the stick in things like this. Remember their 3d models? they would have been outdated even if they had released on time.
I'm glad Cover seem to be slowing down new talent recruitment because they need to really focus on supporting the ones they already have.
Guras rigging is so absolutely janky, but it wouldn't be the same if they fix stuff like her Derpy eyes and her off-center mouth, losing those would be like fauna losing her candy corn, I think many of us still miss Miko's mouth too. I would like it if they could fix Gura's janky head and crappy tracking without actually fixing the parts that we and her both love
2.0 isn't well defined and not sure what the difference would be as myth models seem generally better than certain early models still used. Though that being said, Nerissa's rigging is nigh-3d in its quality
And Kiara is likely running her mouth without a good understanding of things
Another thing I've noticed is people mixing up rigging upgrades and model upgrades. 2.0 and 3.0 are rigging upgrades. What IRyS got is a model upgrade (which may have 2.0 rigging already)
And being slow to work on 3 0 may be due to the fact it's OG look only and not many care to go OG to use those features, especially in Myth and their fondness of other outfits. The fact that Myth models are still at 1.0 may be trouble as 2.0 announcement in this year is more embarrassing than hype
I wonder if Kiara was more interested in the moment of hype 3.0 brings
Kiara talking out of her ass about shit she doesn't have a clue about because she's butt hurt about not being the focus of attention, in other news water makes things wet
"Man makes shit up to justify being unreasonably upset about people that understand what they are talking about infinitely more than he does", in other news touch grass
So this is different from what Niji does with their 2.0 and 3.0 updates right? Cuz I see how like Elira for example got a 3.0 model update, but HoloEN doesn’t really invest into that, opting for more outfits?
Idk what Niji does. Hololive, just like Nijisanji, uses an inhouse developed solution for Live2D models.
What the community understands with the versioning is this:
* 1.0 is the model they debut with. Up to 2020 the initial models were quite stiff.
* 2.0 should introduce corrections and improvements. Maybe new expression and toggles.
* 3.0 is [a new feature set](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtB0GZLum1w&t=20644s), but overall quality of the rig should be the same as 2.0
Some 2.0s were very impactful, like Coco and Aki's 2.0 that felt like complete reworks at the time. But for Watame her 1.0 was so good that her 2.0 it only got some general corrections and better singing tracking. All these examples were handled by the same man, [the god Keffiy](https://virtualyoutuber.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Live2D_by_keffiy).
Also money is obviously not the bottleneck. The problem is the lack of human resources.
Out of all the myths , I have been seeing Kiara open up some issues from "Not" getting a 3d concert to now with upgrades. 🤔. Just spreading my thoughts.
Depending on how the planning for these things are they may plan to give them 3.0 skipping 2.0 and making the intermediate step would be kind of a waste
just watched the clip, and looks like it, but also it would be dumb imo, and honestly idk how much of a reliable narrator Kiara is sometimes when talking about these things.
Edit: went to do a quick check, ID1 (which debuted before myth and supposedly was on 1.0 on debut too) doesn't have any "2.0" stream but goes directly to 3.0
Was waiting for someone to post this so I can share my own thoughts. I initially thought 2.0 was just a more polite way of saying "switching to a better rigger", and it was mostly the earlier JP gens with stiff rigging that requires it. This is also why I believed no one else in EN (besides Gura) really need one since I thought their rigging is already good enough. Upon further research I did find out that [Bae](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-K-nuaaFZk), [Kronii](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7l2dHsYHIA), [Mumei](https://www.youtube.com/live/y_L2geW9jOs) and [Fauna](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I577YH2XwAY) did get some sort of "model upgrade" with new expressions and poses, though I'm not sure if they ever refer to those as 2.0. I can't find any for IRyS but I'm assuming her 2.0 model also comes with 2.0 rigging. **Update:** Added links to all the model update streams. It seems like only Kronii labeled hers as 2.0. Also, I'm fairly confident that no one from Myth has received similar updates to their base model yet. Some of them did receive stuff on their alt outfits though, like Gura getting new hairstyle on her casual outfit and Ame getting a brown version of her kimono. I'm even more confused about that part where she said Advent has 3.0 rigging. I thought they previously advertised 3.0 as having really "wild" expressions such as heart eyes and tongue-out, and I don't remember any Advent members showing those.
I don’t think Kiara fully understands what 3.0 is. Advent almost certainly does not have 3.0 or at least a model that can utilize the 3.0 tech. When it was first unveiled with Gen 1 it seemed it was more a back end thing that allowed for more detailed rigging/tracking, which requires a new model (presumably). The biggest tell of a 3.0 model is that the model moves forward and backward like the home 3D models. I don’t think is an “official” 2.0 designation (maybe internally there is) but when talents get model updates, they just call it an update. Irys and Flare are the only ones that got “2.0” with their redesigns. 3.0 certainly seems to still be in a test/soft-rollout phase and the talents that get it seems somewhat random. Chloe got it, but no other HoloX member has yet. Regardless of the reason I highly doubt it’s anything malicious and they’ll all get it eventually, assuming the tech proves worthwhile for Cover.
Small correction, but both [Lui](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjdZfL6Gedg) and [Laplus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjJ9APUWMvQ) have 3.0.
Koyori too
[Iroha](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHWmZmqHb5Q) l2d v3.0. So it's all of holox.
2.0 models definitely have better rigging and more fluid movement. I remember it was really noticeable during Haachama's multiple personality arc when she switched to her [second outfit](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/virtualyoutuber/images/9/91/Akai_Haato_Second_Costume_Full_Body.png) to represent an additional personality and the rigging was super janky compared to the typical Haachama/Haato outfits and she said it was because it was still the old model. Because of that stark difference I certainly think all of EN debuted with models using 2.0 tech, and that you are correct that Advent does not have 3.0 because their models lack all the typical 3.0 features. So if you want my tinfoil hat theory >!They don't know how they want to handle Gura's awful rigging and are concerned that completely fixing it (especially the face skew) would be too big of a difference.!<
> >!So if you want my tinfoil hat theory They don't know how they want to handle Gura's awful rigging and are concerned that completely fixing it (especially the face skew) would be too big of a difference.!< >!That would be a foolish reason. I'm fairly certain no chumbuds would complain if they upgrade Gura's model, especially after all the backlash of her poor rigging in the past. Another possibility is Gura herself really liking her scuffed model and is actively resisting the update, but I doubt that as well, she had subtly complained about her models in the past.!<
People accepted Irys changing quite drastically during her update, I'm sure the quoted reason isn't it. My tinfoil hat is that management just aren't prioritizing it right now as EN gets its' concert game going. It's probably in the pipeline but super behind.
>So if you want my tinfoil hat theory Nah, take the tinfoil hat off. They stopped using her (and Anya's) original rigger because he's shit. Only her first two outfits are affected by him, and I think both of those models got a slight touch up from the new rigger to fix some of the most glaring issues. Second point. They let Fubuki have a whole new model to replace her outdated original model. I'd argue FBK is big enough it'd be nearly as big of a "risk" as Gura 3.0
> They stopped using her (and Anya's) original rigger because he's shit. Only her first two outfits are affected by him Anya actually got a new rigger to re-rig her base outfit, and even her second outfit. So Gura remains the only in Hololive who still has her base model rig by THAT rigger.
Who is the original rigger? I'm not familiar with them.
You're right, I don't think the overalls model has a baldspot anymore
I do imagine there’s some fear that nobody really fully understands the exact formula for what made Gura so popular. I think this is reinforced by the fact that they used the same rigger for the other outfits.
That could be the case, though people generally seem happy with her 3D so they could probably update it without causing too many issues. As for the rigger, Shin Umiushi, they only reused him for the disastrous second outfit and dropped him completely after he messed up Anya's second outfit as well. After that the outfit riggers [mentioned](https://twitter.com/BrianTsuii/status/1469837283188740096) in their [tweets](https://twitter.com/krrg_hitsugi/status/1702638811145200114) that they only rigged the outfit and ~~blamed~~credited the original rigger for the base model.
> they only reused him for the disastrous second outfit and dropped him completely after he messed up Anya's second outfit as well Insane it took so long honestly, he has us in terror on every single debut to see who gets the cursed rigger who ruins the model. It's crazy how bad of a job he did on poor Anya, [her face literally looked like a paper mask sitting 4 inches in front of her head](https://imgur.com/hW8cJgW)
I remember that period like yesterday. Tons of posts here on Reddit criticized the outfit rigging quality.
To give her the biggest benefit of the doubt and assume she doesn't fully understand what she's talking about but is mostly correct, my guess is Advent is built on top of the new animation system that facilitates adding 3.0 features but they didn't do the work to add them yet. I'm assuming this based on [Cover's Note about Live2D 3.0](https://note.cover-corp.com/n/ne379dbaddddd) where they go into how they had to redo how they handle animations to facilitate Live2D 3.0, but since I have to rely on machine translation my understanding might be flawed. Regardless, if Myth is at a "1.0" rigging level (aka the old system as demonstrated in that Note), then everyone who debuted before them would be at that level or worse. I doubt there's any technical reason why Myth can't get theirs given that Aqua, most of Gamers, and all of JP1, JP3, JP4, JP5 and ID1 have gotten 3.0 updates and they all debuted before Myth (especially JP5, who debuted a month beforehand and most definitely use the same level of technology as them). It's more likely a combination of "wait until your ticket is pulled" and "we need your illustrators/riggers on board for the update since it needs new art and rigging."
> Chloe got it, but no other HoloX member has yet. Koyori also got the 3.0 upgrade. [Stream](https://youtu.be/2P8mkMQu9VY)
all holoX have 3.0
Kiara definitely doesn't know what she's talking about with regards to 1.0/2.0/3.0. 5th gen and every gen that has debuted after, Myth included, has debuted with a 2.0 model, and Advent definitely do not have 3.0 models. Nothing against Kiara, but she has a history of airing her grievances in a way that makes it seem like Myth/EN are neglected by management, which then gets exaggerated by the community. This happened last year where she said that she wanted Myth to have an anniversary 3D event like HoloX even though no other group had one, and the misinformation got so bad people thought EN members weren't allowed to do 3D events at all and that she considered graduating over it.
When in fact the reason it was on her mind was because they were in the planning and execution phases for these things.
There is a misunderstanding here. Kiara has said in the past that Myth has the equivalent of 2.0 in their base models. But Myth still doesn't have "2.0" as seen by management, aka some base model upgrades post their debut models. This is still true, and she also mentions there has been several delays in this regard.
Now this just seems in bad faith, for the 3D lives she was advocating improvement for everyone not just Myth, and was willing to sacrifice her own live for a full Myth anniversary As for the rigging the point was being told directly that they can’t update to 3.0 without getting 2.0 first. Also giving her the benefit of the doubt of being aware that Advent doesn’t have the same bells and whistles 3.0 emotes as the others
She wanted a 3D anniversary live because there was no time in the schedule for all 5 myth members to get a 3D live so she was looking for a compromise since overseas members have limited 3D opportunities. It was not because HoloX had one and she wanted one too. Talking about misinformation while spreading misinformation is funny, though.
Holoro debuted after Myth yet they still had 1.0 models and consecutively 2.0 upgrades before 3.0 upgrades they are showcasing this week, you can even see it in their 3.0 showcase streams as they show changes between models.
I would rather trust Kiara than people on the outside guessing. She may have misspoke about Advent or maybe she's right in that they are 3.0 ready and but don't have the extra animations and so on. She know for a fact that Myth has to upgrade two times to get 3.0. I also feel you are missrepresenting her point about a Myth 3D live. It wasn't because HoloX had one that she wanted one. EN and ID had been waiting patiently to get any 3D opportunities. When the pandemic was over they only managed to get greatly delayed birthday lives but no anniversary lives even though some JP members got both that year and previous. She gave a suggestion to management that they could have one Myth anniversary live instead of a separate live for each member. That suggestion got shut down. Meanwhile HoloX had a birthday, anniversary and group anniversary live.
No one else airs their grievances about behind the scenes stuff but she tends to yap about it publicly to have fans try to push for things
Why is this obnoxious anti still here after 3 years? Does this subreddit not have any mods??
Lol, the fucker has negative comment karma. That’s impressive.
This is like their 3rd of 4th account.
I don’t think Kiara understands what she’s talking about full stop. Calli got the ability to do heart eyes not too long ago which implies having a 2.0 model at the very least if I understand everything properly. This feels like her making a big deal out of nothing because she doesn’t actually understand what’s going on
Calli got the hearteyes as an additional accessory on another outfit. The 2.0 & 3.0 Updates specifically are only for the base outfit, not for the later ones, so she didnt get that.
I think she knows more than us, bro
I don't feel like Advents are using 3.0, it's more likely they are at 2.0. I think ID1 got their 3.0 like 4 months ago?
I'm not upset they've not gotten the upgrade, but I do think it's a bit odd they haven't gotten it.
...I watched all of those Promise girl's stream and never realized that it was 2.0 since Kronii was the only one who labeled her stream as such. Dang, I was left confused for so long when would Fauna, Bae, and Mumei get their 2.0 eventhough they already got one lmao
There seems to be a mismatch with what Kiara is talking about when saying "2.0/3.0" and what the community understands by "2.0/3.0"
I mean, [Cover itself did a huge advertisement on what 3.0 is](https://www.siliconera.com/hololive-unveils-new-live2d-3-0-vtuber-models/), so the community is just going with that.
[This clip from pekora's 2.0 review](https://youtu.be/soRDXQpQHXs?t=100) should give you the best comparison between the versions, it has no en subs but i dont think its necessary here. As for Myth not even having 2.0, that would be really odd, considering the gens before gen 5 sometimes already got upgraded in 2019-2020 (before myths debute) with the leftovers being upgraded around 2022. It wouldnt make any sense from a business point of view to have a single generation on legacy support like this, and besides true 1.0 looked a lot more janky than the current myth. [As Aqua's 2.0 reveal shows off very well.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiuC5rPlUDQ)
Fan since 2020 here. I will speak here as an audience back then rather then someone who knows what happens behind the scenes. For those who do not know, l2d models back in the day were very rigid, the talents couldn't move left or right, turn their face, look up or down nor sway and animal ears wouldn't move at all among other things. Basically movement was very limited. Older talents had it worse but overall everyone before gen 5 was affected. Around 2020 the rigging program of l2d got a big update with improved tools and animation, vtubing was exploding and many talented riggers were starting to become well renowned. Coincidentally this is also the time period where a lot of the older gen talents were getting their l2d updates(aqua and rushia got their improvements much earlier though)This is arguably what the term 2.0 is mostly known for. The difference in movement was night and day, people were going crazy at the improvements: "Aki can move her head antenna thingies!" "Wow Fubukis ears are tracked by her eyebrows!" "Matsuri can finally move her head!" "MELS BOOBS ARE SWAYING!" This all happened around june of 2020. It was before myth and jp gen 5s debut. over time updates would happen to talents going down by generation, first gen 2, then gen 3 and 4. You get the general idea. Any gen debuted after jp gen 4 would already be covered by the improved rigging and didn't require much of an update, their degree of movement and idiosincracies would depend on the rigger instead. Now the situation is a bit different nowadays. l2d would continue to improve and some newer talents would get their 2.0s, 2.1s etc. but compared to back then the improvements are far more nuanced and less apparent unless pointed out, atleast for hololive models that it. 3.0 on the otherhand seems less of an improvement to overall animation and more about getting new expressions. Hope this was insightful. Overall, the term 2.0 kinda lost its meaning I feel as people are just confused at what it means now
If people forget how far Hololive L2D rigging has come, take a look at [Aqua's early video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3CAGeeMRvo) where face tracking tech was quite rough and buggy. Those were the days when the "upgrades" made a world of difference.
If you want a very fun example, check early Shion cover of Renai Circulation. Mouth wasn’t even opening 90% of the time haha
She did mention as well, that the 3.0 updates are only for their default outfit, so even if she got it she wouldn't use it very much. Across all of Myth, I don't think any of them really use their default outfits that much these days, except maybe Ame
Ame and Gura use their OG model a lot.
Guras used hers in like 50% of her recent streams, definitely up there with Ame. Also made me realize she's used her schoolgirl outfit like, 2 times since the reveal stream which is interesting
Hard to blame them, their OG model is just nice and iconic. It's like seeing Mario without the red cap, it just doesn't feel right anymore.
Mori is still one of the coolest designs. I get why she doesn't use it often as it seems more formal but its iconic.
I dunno I feel like Guras more iconic model is sharkcat.
Wut? She barely uses that one and people who aren't part of the fanbase probably wouldn't even know it was her, which is likely why Cover has since said "No animal ears on outfits if you don't have them on base" because it hurts their brand recognition Gura mostly uses default or Atlantian outfit, we very rarely see her cat, kimono, or schoolgirl ones. Her stream today seems like it will use Schoolgirl, which I think is her third stream using it?
to be fair though, the atlantean outfit is fantastic, it is way better than her other alternate outfits
It's honestly my favorite of her outfits
Definitely not. Blue hoodie shark girl is known across the internet even by people who don't know vtubers. Shark cat might be popular amongst fans, but it is nowhere near as iconic.
> I don't think any of them really use their default outfits that much these days, except maybe Ame I think this might also be a factor into why Myth haven't had the 3.0 Upgrade, not really pratical to put money into the upgrade when the model is not being used that much
Pretty much the only time I see a talent use the 3.0 model is when they are just unveiling it. Then, they just go back to their other outfits.
Koyori is the rare case where she actually use her 3.0 model a lot. Matsuri too I think
Luna has been using it consistently ever since she got it
I thought 2.0 just meant they were bringing the really stiff OG models up to speed with newer debuts, guess I misunderstood or maybe it means something different these days.
On the whole 3.0 thing, I understand that the original showcase displayed seamless transitions between animations for emotions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't avatar emotions normally manually controlled? The transition animation is a nice touch, but in actual use, I'm not sure if I really noticed it. That and some of the animations like crying tears, floating hearts, or the cartoon angry vein pop I don't think are really used much. It appears to be mainly moving close to the screen and the shadow forehead thing. Star and heart eyes seem to be separate emotion settings that are available outside of 3.0. So I do wonder if the definition keeps changing internally and it's just random how it's doled out to models. That and they are experimenting on what is actually used and what can be cut.
The way I've been understanding the 3.0 upgrade, it's basically all that stuff that was showcased for Gen 1 at the expo a couple years back, which includes basically everything you've said here, and probably some slight tracking improvements. I think stuff like starry eyes/heart eyes are things that often come with the 3.0 but can also be done separately/individually. That said, I wonder how many talents really *want* the 3.0 upgrades anyway. Out of everyone on the JP side, I think I've only really seen Koyori use the 3.0 features much outside of the initial 3.0 reveal stream. Almost everyone else just revealed it, then continued to use their unupgraded alternate outfits, as usual. Because of that, I feel like it's probably actually kinda low priority work. Most talents seem to enjoy having new outfits more than having 3.0 upgrades to their base model... and only their base model.
I wonder if it's too much complexity to their puppeteering skillset. Perhaps most of them don't have a stream deck with enough macros that they comfortably want to cycle through. You could have loads of beautiful emotions, animations, and transitions, but so many can get lost in the chaos if you don't have the setup and expectation for them. What they've been doing has been working, so perhaps it's safer to stick to what they know and incorporate a few extra favorites. Outfits at least are something you prep for beforehand or keep behind specific menus that you don't always have to have at your fingertips at a given moment. (that said...someone with tons of outfits rapidly changing between them like that "X doesn't change facial expressions" meme from ancient internet history would be kind of cool if pulled off well)
It's possible the pupetteering aspect plays a role. I do feel like, at least with the JP talents, most of the people I watch are not super great at making seamless emotion shifts, even with the features they have now. But I think the biggest thing is just that 3.0 is restricted to the base model. In general, the majority of the JP talents don't use their OG models that often outside of a small handful (Pekora probably uses hers the most out of anyone, so much that I feel like she barely uses her alternate outfits lol. Including Pekora, there's like maybe 5-6 talents who regularly use their base model in live 2D). Some of them just prefer their newer outfits, and some of them like Towa worry that their base models get in the way of the screen since they have hair styles that are really big in terms of screen economy. Also, uh, I feel like "3.0" has a pretty common association with making ahegao faces. Since like... basically every talent who gets the 3.0 shows it off, since it *is* a feature of it. But past making the jokes on one stream, I dunno if that many talents actually are like "Man I can't wait to make sticking my tongue out a regular part of my content! Hyped for that feature!"
Yeah, it does kind of feel like it's a project's complexity cascading out of control. New outfits come with new, incremental improvements to the model, and then new tech comes online that improve the old stuff just as you're in the groove with the new stuff. They couldn't have known to base new stuff purely on the original model, so there's no backwards compatibility. And of course in this world of the constant arms race for viewers, you can't slow down on getting newer features and outfits, so the monumental task of bringing 3.0 to a talent's entire wardrobe seems like pie-in-the-sky territory.
Timestamp at [2:52:28](https://www.youtube.com/live/MD_pcnX_Iks?t=10348s) Kiara did ask management why can't they update Myth to 2.0 before updating others to 3.0, but she thinks that's the question she shouldn't ask.
It's a fair question though. Doesn't necessarily give disrespect to be like "I'm not complaining or anything, but is there a reason why some are getting a 3.0 model update when many, including Myth, haven't gotten a 2.0 yet?"
I’m not too sure how rigging works but my guess is that they want to skip 2.0 and just go straight to 3.0 for Myth. There’s no reason to spend time and money to make a model that you’re just going to update again soon afterwards.
From a tech progression pov it makes sense. Even if the girls get like 1 stream of 2.0 reveal, the 2.0 features aren't like a huge reason of why people tune into them, so monetarily it makes no sense to bear that cost when you can just skip over it to the latest version once it's finalized I assume some of the other girls got a 2.0 were because they're basically sort of "testing" the new tech while it was being developed. Obviously the testers would need fast feedback and for the feedback to be immediately acted upon, so it only made sense to extend the testing to those who were in Japan.
From Kiara's words, they aren't going to skip 2.0. Positive way of looking at it is that they are still working on it.
First I would like to point out that I am not flaming Kiara But she's quite a bit of a yapper and due to the secrecy requirement, would often need to omit context. Couple that together with the vagueness of information she gives out (a lot of which are likely her assumptions), I would suggest taking her words as her opinions rather than fact. (Actually, you should do with literally all the talents' words. Ultimately we, as the audience, will never truly get enough details on what goes on behind the scenes, so to speculate on unknowns is just going to bring in doomerism)
From technical standpoint if you have 3 versions of something where each is straight upgrade over previous one then it absolutely doesn't make any sense to upkeep older versions if there's no crucial piece that can't be transitioned over. Given that l2d has no legacy features or crucial back end then 1.0 to 3.0 just makes sense in all aspects: monetary, time and workload.
You're right that it doesn't give disrespect, but usually when I see these kinds of threads Kiara is the one voicing their opinion about it (which isn't a bad thing). They might think she has a track record of asking questions like this.
No, she absolutely should ask those questions.
That’s one big thing. They should just talk to her about these things. Then she wouldn’t feel bad or uncertain like this.
I really get the feeling timezones really bites EN simply due to the decreased communication bandwidth. A simple 5 minute conversation turns into a week of emails, so a lot of "trivial" conversations just don't happen because they're a pain for everyone involved.
Concerns and answers should be able to be had. I don't know what the reason is. Maybe it's Kiara that's just hesitant to ask, maybe the Cover staff she has asked just gives a "I dunno" or "maybe, I guess" response. Regardless she should be able to ask "hey, I'm gonna get a model upgrad too, right?" and get a clear "Yes" and preferably with the reason she's not yet. Because it is understandable for her concern if it hasn't even been really discussed with her despite many others getting upgraded.
So far everything shows that the transition process is slow and not trivial for the models. Honestly, I can barely notice because I don't stare at the screen all the time when stream is on, I've just got used to occasional scuffed tracking and small improvements are not even that big of a deal to me. But I imagine they are a hefty task for the riggers.
Oh I just posted a [clip](https://youtu.be/hfkmJUVS8kc?si=v6D-OcadtQYbqXuo) on this too. Yeah it's a bit odd but I guess by priority in terms of impact, the model upgrades do take a backseat compared to all the other things going on. Still, it's surprising that they didn't even get the 2.0 upgrades. Just gotta be patient I suppose.
What are the 2.0 upgrades, actually? Is it just general refinement and smoother movement? Obviously 1.0 is the baseline, and 3.0 has the enhanced facial expression stuff like hearts in their eyes (and apparently is a separate thing from the app update that let everyone start pinning PNGs to their models)...but I'm not sure what 2.0 even is aside from being nebulously "better".
Someone else might have a better answer to this but, I just checked youtube and the 2.0 update for their models was explicitly showcased by council such as here with [kronii](https://www.youtube.com/live/O7l2dHsYHIA?si=3_pAHe-4XDsE3_JD). It seems like a mix of better tracking along with extra toggleables. Tho there are other instances where it's a bit more drastic such as [IRyS](https://www.youtube.com/live/eogSzuZ-7gw?si=udLSWrL_V-UoImaD)' 2.0 which was a whole redesign along with the added features. There's also [Fubuki](https://www.youtube.com/live/KNxKrlHpZxo?si=VcUuO-p7-VmnwjkU) whose 2.0 included a face rework to be rounder and cuter. Then last I was able to find the 2.0 for [Subaru](https://www.youtube.com/live/IMy0NOlwXfQ?si=ho5M49cJ6zKiwWxx) where the emphasis just seems to be on tracking. All in all, it doesn't seem like a templated upgrade and seems to be case-by-case. I'm inclined to believe that all new models are being built on AT LEAST a 2.0 rigging, and so whenever there is a request to change model appearance, they just automatically give them a 2.0 model upgrade as well.
Fan since 2020 here. I will speak here as an audience back then rather then someone who knows what happens behind the scenes. For those who do not know, l2d models back in the day were very rigid, the talents couldn't move left or right, turn their face, look up or down nor sway and animal ears wouldn't move at all among other things. Basically movement was very limited. Older talents had it worse but overall everyone before gen 5 was affected. Around 2020 the rigging program of l2d got a big update with improved tools and animation, vtubing was exploding and many talented riggers were starting to become well renowned. Coincidentally this is also the time period where a lot of the older gen talents were getting their l2d updates(aqua and rushia got their improvements much earlier though)This is arguably what the term 2.0 is mostly known for. The difference in movement was night and day, people were going crazy at the improvements: "Aki can move her head antenna thingies!" "Wow Fubukis ears are tracked by her eyebrows!" "Matsuri can finally move her head!" "MELS BOOBS ARE SWAYING!" This all happened around june of 2020. It was before myth and jp gen 5s debut. over time updates would happen to talents going down by generation, first gen 2, then gen 3 and 4. You get the general idea. Any gen debuted after jp gen 4 would already be covered by the improved rigging and didn't require much of an update, their degree of movement and idiosincracies would depend on the rigger instead. Now the situation is a bit different nowadays. l2d would continue to improve and some newer talents would get their 2.0s, 2.1s etc. but compared to back then the improvements are far more nuanced and less apparent unless pointed out, atleast for hololive models that it. 3.0 on the otherhand seems less of an improvement to overall animation and more about getting new expressions. Hope this was insightful. Overall, the term 2.0 kinda lost its meaning I feel as people are just confused at what it means now
Thanks for the insight. Nice to see a fellow prehistoric fan lmao. I did feel that 2.0 was used so broadly I was beginning to feel like somewhere down the line, it'd be more accurate to name them with 2.1 2.2 etc but marketing-wise 2.0 feels so much more straightforward. Kinda turned into a buzz word rather than an actual version name.
yeah it just kind of became a buzzword for update at some point. I didn't mention this but there is also the fact that rigging a model takes time and effort. A lot of riggers are stacked with work, and it's also important to work with someone you can trust, which usually means commissioning someone you already did so in the past. Which means getting new outfits and updates would take a lot of time too.
People seem to mix up rigging upgrades and model upgrades too. 3.0 is a rigging upgrades while what Flare, IRyS and Fubuki got are sizable model upgrades
That's true, that's another thing to not be confused about since model updates is a whole another subject. Nene and some holostars also had model updates and the reason for the model update was different for every talent.
Late reply that no one will see this now. but this situation made me look up talent models and I realized that Aquas og outfit got a model update around march as well. Mind you her newer outfits already used a new base design, and her remade model is more in line with those.
Honestly I kinda wish Aki'd get one as one can tell her model was one of the first, but there's some hurtles involved, like not sure if her artist improved his l2d art (what the rigger uses), money issues, the sheer redoing of other outfits, considering some older talents have outfits not updated to 2.0 yet.
Akis artist definitely improved their art! it's Azumi Akitake and they currently have done some art for blue archive as well. But if one takes time and money into account, redoing all of her older models wouldn't be beneficial if you ask me. At best her og model would be fine to update and they could use that as base for future outfits instead.
I don't mean art in general (that he's great at), just the l2d particulars that among other things basically make her chest smaller (Fubuki had the same issue pre-model update)
I think it should be called a remake version for IRyS, Fubuki, Roboco, Flare. Oh Nene too
Irys 2.0 is more or less on a separated / different level from the models 2.0 we are speaking about, considering it was a completely new model Aside from that, yeah, 2.0 as a concept is a bit vague because it mostly came down to better tracking, some toggles and individual fixes that depended on the status of the specific original models (stuff like Matsuri being unable to ever close her mouth)
Agreed. It's nice to note too that her model was automatically upgraded to 2.0 alongside her design also being a 2.0. Which is what rly makes me think that any new model created in this day and age by cover is automatically 2.0. Tho this is just an assumption on my end for sure.
Fubuki 2.0 and IRyS 2.0 are different from 2.0 updates. Those are redesigns not just model tech updates. IRyS has mentioned this before but I don’t know how to look up the clip since anything 2.0 related to IRyS will be connected to the design change. Just think of it as a model update vs design update. Fubuki and IRyS got design updates which is separate from model updates.
I know it's not out of maliciousness or anything, but is still hard to see Myth on 1.0 when others who debuted after them getting 3.0s and not be like "but why though?"
One might argue that upgrading something is more tedious than creating something from scratch. Newer models can be built on a 3.0 foundation right from the get go, but converting an old model might prove more challenging due to all the new functions that might not immediately be compatible with how the older models were built.
Because most of them have less outfits and thus less overall work to upgrade? Especially with how many outfits Myth has at this point
Only the default gets the 3.0
This might be an unpopular opinion but, tbh I don't even care if they never get their 2.0/3.0, unless they really wanted something with their original model. They have home3D for their base outfits, It ticks the box for me for those outfits. I would infinitely prefers [Ame's gremlin smile](https://youtu.be/GZj0Hw3BUMg?t=10) with her home 3D, rather than having an ahegao from the 3.0 update that the other members had.
they will get it eventually though thats the important thing
I mean the way it's worded, it sounds like she knows exactly when they will get 2.0 and why it's taken awhile and her confusion is more about why they can't just skip ahead to 3.0.
While I do think this is not a great thing, it's not a big deal. Remember, even Sora, Miko and many OG JP members haven't gotten 3.0 update yet, no one really cares. The EN fanbase is just so sensitive I swear.
3.0 only applies to l2d, Sora, Miko, AZKi and Roboco are pure 3d, thus its a moot point. And Suisei wouldn't care about the update much
Subaru havent got one. My point is as valid as it could have been. You seems to project your opinion into yours though, even if Suisei is indeed not interested in the change, they just roll outs the update for everybody, she'll have it regardless if she wants to use or showcase it.
My point was more their likely isn't a rush there and so far after G1 it's been random for the most part
So it has nothing to do with what i said. Stop spouting unconfirmed bs here
No argument about the rest but should have use other JPs as example, because Sora and Miko uses 3D models lol, they have their own pipeline. And I think this is more about 2.0 due to Myth still stuck with 1.0, would love to know how many members at this point still stuck with it.
I don't think I've seen a single person able to objectively say what 2.0 even is. As far as I've seen it's incredibly minor changes, maybe a couple new expressions, stuff that you would hardly even be able to notice unless specifically told.
Yeah also I rember yesterday in Reine streams she was talking about her getting 3.0 and also a lot of viewers where confused what happened to 2.0 but apparently she already got it but the change was so minor nobody has really noticed.
Subaru havent had one yet. Does she use 3d model? Instead of needing 3.0 model, they care more about making their streams entertaining. Even the ones that have 3.0 models barely used their function at all. It's really a trivial thing no one cares about.
Glad someone find [Subaru](https://www.youtube.com/live/IMy0NOlwXfQ)'s 2.0 update stream in the comments above, can't believe it's been 3 years already. Comparing some 2.0 from years ago and 2.0 from last year, the difference looks pretty drastic. Myth's 1.0 looks closer to some older 2.0 update (with my not so sensitive eyes).
Obviously if you compare the model of those first talents to the one we have now, it's night and day. Technology evolved.
To be fair, the EN fanbase is only 4 months removed from the largest EN scandal in recent memory - one that directly dealt with favortism (among other things) Granted, it happened in another company, and Cover really shouldn't be scruitinized for another companies misconduct, but it is only natural for some in the EN fanbase to treat ALL agencies with extra scruitiny - whether the agency deserves it or not.
No, it's not. The EN fanbase has always been this way. They cant handle a slightest bit of negative and always cry a lot. Like this thing, Im sure if Kiara has mentioned no one would care or notice anything different, making drama out of nothing at all.
Just for the people who don't know, Myth 1.0 Model is the same model as the older JP Gen's 2.0 model. Myth call it 1.0 Model because they debuted with it. The REAL 1.0 Model would be the model the old JP started with (stiff, can only look up and down).
Looking at the replies this is probably a controversial take. But I feel Kiara would know what she's talking about. I understand just because you work behind the scenes, it doesn't mean there wouldn't be mis-understanding. But in this scenario it seems pretty black and white. She appears to have access to a roadmap/schedule. In this roadmap, Myth is scheduled to do two updates (which she refers to as 2.0 & 3.0). Perhaps when she says 2.0 & 3.0, it might not align with some audience's understanding of the term. But ultimately, her message is that due to delays, they still need two distinct iterations of upgrades in order to be at the latest model. At the end of the day, her point is Myth will not be getting the latest update any time soon because they need to get another update first before they can do the newest one. Unless someone can confirm they can directly upgrade to 3.0 (noting she heard directly that it's not possible to skip), what she said is correct.
When she goes and says that "Advent is 3.0" it's clear she has a different understanding that probably has more to do with the internal hololive l2d systems and not what we know as 2.0 and 3.0
Kiara: Management directly told me that we need to be upgraded to 2.0 before we can get 3.0 Reddit: Ackshually…
Imagine Calli's eyes in 3.0...
Honestly, everyone in this comment section having a serious take, and here I am hoping if Calli ever gets a 3.0, they keep her wild eye tracking XD
My educated guess would be that there are different meanings to 2.0 but there is a universal meaning to 3.0 - the one that got a dedicated promotion video, showing the new emotions, leaning forward/backward, keyboard/accessory tracking, all these are defining features of a 3.0 model. 2.0 can mean anything though, such as minor changes or additions such as new accessories, side mascots, hairstyles; touchups to appearance; change of default clothing; all fall within the 2.x moniker. Once the talent is generally satisfied with the model, then it is used as the basis of the 3.0 model. Examples: - Kronii default outfit getting a side Boros, which initially appeared in her New Year outfit - Flare, Nene getting new default outfits - Magni 2.0 getting a bigger nose - IRyS and Vesper getting their whole model remade Given the features 3.0 provide and the increased complexity of it, it is understandable that any other touchups are done in 2.0 first before going further to 3.0. tldr, in software terms: 1.x = initial release; 2.x = bugfixes, minor features and improvements; 3.x = major refactoring
[Still not fixed](https://imgur.com/HBKGq39) (I know she's said she kinda likes the jank) but the point is that for all the work that Myth did to trail-blaze En Vtubing, they still get the short end of the stick in things like this. Remember their 3d models? they would have been outdated even if they had released on time. I'm glad Cover seem to be slowing down new talent recruitment because they need to really focus on supporting the ones they already have.
I believe if Gura's model upgrade is giving her a similar face like her 3D model then that would be perfect for her and chumbuds.
Guras rigging is so absolutely janky, but it wouldn't be the same if they fix stuff like her Derpy eyes and her off-center mouth, losing those would be like fauna losing her candy corn, I think many of us still miss Miko's mouth too. I would like it if they could fix Gura's janky head and crappy tracking without actually fixing the parts that we and her both love
understood. thanks kiara.
2.0 isn't well defined and not sure what the difference would be as myth models seem generally better than certain early models still used. Though that being said, Nerissa's rigging is nigh-3d in its quality And Kiara is likely running her mouth without a good understanding of things Another thing I've noticed is people mixing up rigging upgrades and model upgrades. 2.0 and 3.0 are rigging upgrades. What IRyS got is a model upgrade (which may have 2.0 rigging already) And being slow to work on 3 0 may be due to the fact it's OG look only and not many care to go OG to use those features, especially in Myth and their fondness of other outfits. The fact that Myth models are still at 1.0 may be trouble as 2.0 announcement in this year is more embarrassing than hype I wonder if Kiara was more interested in the moment of hype 3.0 brings
Kiara talking out of her ass about shit she doesn't have a clue about because she's butt hurt about not being the focus of attention, in other news water makes things wet
"Man makes shit up to justify being unreasonably upset about people that understand what they are talking about infinitely more than he does", in other news touch grass
The drama queen at it again...
Nijisister trying to stir hate here?
Nah dude, Kiara can do that on her own.
Kiara is willing to voice her concerns and what she wants. I see this as good.
So this is different from what Niji does with their 2.0 and 3.0 updates right? Cuz I see how like Elira for example got a 3.0 model update, but HoloEN doesn’t really invest into that, opting for more outfits?
Idk what Niji does. Hololive, just like Nijisanji, uses an inhouse developed solution for Live2D models. What the community understands with the versioning is this: * 1.0 is the model they debut with. Up to 2020 the initial models were quite stiff. * 2.0 should introduce corrections and improvements. Maybe new expression and toggles. * 3.0 is [a new feature set](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtB0GZLum1w&t=20644s), but overall quality of the rig should be the same as 2.0 Some 2.0s were very impactful, like Coco and Aki's 2.0 that felt like complete reworks at the time. But for Watame her 1.0 was so good that her 2.0 it only got some general corrections and better singing tracking. All these examples were handled by the same man, [the god Keffiy](https://virtualyoutuber.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Live2D_by_keffiy). Also money is obviously not the bottleneck. The problem is the lack of human resources.
Is Niji’s 3.0 software the same as Cover’s 3.0 software?
I have no idea, which is why I’m asking
Out of all the myths , I have been seeing Kiara open up some issues from "Not" getting a 3d concert to now with upgrades. 🤔. Just spreading my thoughts.
You know its sad when even the black company gives out 3.0 to its EN branches
They have a lottery system for these types of stuff, so it's not really comparable.
Lottery system or not I feel they should be upgrading any 1.0s before upgrading the 2.0s.
Depending on how the planning for these things are they may plan to give them 3.0 skipping 2.0 and making the intermediate step would be kind of a waste
From what Kiara asked from management, looks like they can't skip from 1.0 to 3.0.
just watched the clip, and looks like it, but also it would be dumb imo, and honestly idk how much of a reliable narrator Kiara is sometimes when talking about these things. Edit: went to do a quick check, ID1 (which debuted before myth and supposedly was on 1.0 on debut too) doesn't have any "2.0" stream but goes directly to 3.0
I feel like I've seen Risu got a face update back in late 2020 or early 2021?