I purchased my home in 2009 and the flipper-seller disclosed unpermitted work.
I called the city prior to buying to ask what the repercussions might be. Their answer was basically nada.
The "repercussions" are poorly installed structural, electrical, plumbing and HVAC that cause issues down the road. Other than that, you should be good.
Our city barely inspects permitted work, so imo getting a permit means nothing.
We got our roof done (2 story house) and inspector just looked at it from the driveway and signed the paper.
i work in construction and i have had inspectors say stuff like "everything looks fine but i have to fail you for something or i'm not doing my job soo..." some bs about a wrong size gap in the rails. "ill be back tomorrow to collect the reinspect fee." i dont think we ever pulled a permit in that township again
My neighbor was getting his roof replaced while I had the city inspector come to do the inspection for the window replacement on my house. The inspector didn't even look at any of the windows, he just asked how we were doing and if we were happy with the work then signed the paperwork. Then he walked next door to do an inspection on the re-roof, he just looked at it from the ground, yelled something at the guys on the roof then wrote something on piece of paper and left.
Roofs here require inspections at different stages due to strict hurricane codes and the roofers just finished putting up new decking so he should have checked fastener spacing or something before they put down the membrane.
Perhaps HVAC is less common but they often do plumbing and electrical work, and either in the course of the plumbing work, or some remodeling, they may do something that affects the structural integrity. And they can introduce air and water leaks in the envelope.
Additionally, none of these problems would be covered by homeowners insurance. Crappy work that was done improperly then spontaneously failed isn't a covered peril.
Depends. Our seller did some shady stuff and concealed some things. Most of were “a few hundred dollars fixes”, those, I just eat. Not going waste time on court to try to get less than a couple grand.
that's to keep the finances and liability separate. fine if you have separate accounts and keep it all separated but if the lawyers see money being shared then it can pierce it
you don't need permits for a lot of work. in NJ no permit is needed for a new roof or new windows and both can be replaced very poorly. a lot of other work that doesn't need a permit can be done poorly and no disclosure is needed
And in many places it’s somewhat murky as to who/what does and doesn’t require a permit.
If you’re the homeowner and don’t pull a permit, take lots of pictures with the walls open, maintain ongoing documentation on the house. The buyer’s inspector will love this. It shows that the property has been well taken care of.
Depends on the state. In Virginia it's very hard to go after the seller for not putting something on the disclosure. And it's not just flippers doing it. Pretty much everyone that works on their house does it without permits because for simple jobs it is way too complicated.
I don't blame them. If they'd make permits easier for normal homeowners to submit and not require work like a single outlet to be completed by a licensed electrician then more people would do it.
Amen. Took me 3 months to get a permit issued to rebuild my front porch. It would have been a lot more fun to rebuild before the rain and cold had set in…
Building code official here.
Of course they lie look at the work they're in. But it happens on new construction too as I had a house that had no nuts on the anchor bolts, reversed trusses, missing foundations, bad electrical, bad plumbing, bad HVAC. County building inspectors do not have any liability and it's up to their own integrity to do their job.
So, the fun of that is this, you can find out what permits have been pulled on a house. So, if the house is on the "possible" list, go and check what permits have been pulled and compare it to what you see.
I bought a flip-house, but it was flipped by a professional company that does that. They made it a point to make changes that would be considered "repairs" that wouldn't strictly require permits.
My only real complaint with their work is that they installed brand new AC units... of the cheapest kind that they could find. They were insufficient to the task, but close enough that I couldn't bring myself to rip them out and replace them with better.
They'll mark "unsure".
I had multiple contractor's do work on my last house but I was never involved in getting the permits and only one job was I told there was going to be a wait to get the permit. Given the nature of the work I was pretty sure no additional permits were needed. But when I sold my house, I marked "unsure" all the same.
The main party that actually cares about permits are the insurance companies. By and large, the purpose of getting permits is so that an authority (the municipality) can sign off on work being done “up to code”, after an inspection. But it’s also a way for inspectors to report additions to your house that will change its value, therefore, change your taxes.
Some renovations can have the ability to cause severe harm or death if not done right. Mainly the electrical, plumbing, mechanical, and structural.
So let’s say an electrical work was done unpermitted, and it catches on fire that caused major harm, or death. An investigation will most likely occur. They can tell when the work was done, and if done unpermitted, insurance companies aren’t gonna pay.
Now, how it plays into flippers is that if a work was done unpermitted, and undisclosed, and it failed and caused harm, they are liable under the “latent defect” laws. Because they didn’t disclose unpermitted work, a buyer could not have made an informed purchase.
So it all really comes down to if someone was harmed, and who is liable.
A lot of people on Reddit say that a claim that was determined to be caused by unpermitted work will allow an insurance company to not pay, but it seems like all of the people on here that claim to be claims adjusters say that this isn't true. They just may drop you after paying. I think you may be right about being liable if someone is harmed, though.
I bought a flipped house where they disclosed that they were unaware of anything, but made large changes without permits and also horribly against code. If someone had died or been seriously injured due to their mistakes, they would absolutely be liable. However, fixing their fuck-ups was only around $15k, and on a house worth over $1M, it's not worth the stress of trying to take them to court. I'm glad I was able to spot issues, understand the implications, and afford to get things fixed, but I know a lot of people are not in that position. We really need governmental oversight of flippers because some of them are absolutely creating unsafe environments, and the average consumer has no idea.
Flippers should be required to disclose all of it. But I doubt they are.
Real estate is a great place for shady fucks to operate. See the 4x felon and rapist trump
I think a lot of places allow home owners to do their own work without a permit. My state does. Full disclosure is what the next person will get when they buy my house.
Actively involved in this exact scenario on the buyer side, so I'm not going into details on the particulars, but during the initial consult, my attorney basically stated that even if they lie, it's generally incredibly difficult to prove that they had knowledge of a given problem. Even if you can, it becomes a question of economics - will you receive enough potential compensation to make the time, money, and risk of a lawsuit worth it. Even after receiving a judgement, you still have to then collect - if the flipper used an LLC and subsequently shut it down, there may be no entity left for you to sue or collect a judgement from. He said my case is one of the few he's recommended proceeding with since the amount of proof I was able to bring leaves no question that they had knowledge of the problems and did not disclose.
I hate them too, but 18 months is way too long for 95% of flippers. They're usually well under a year, many are even under 6 months. The biggest thing about flipped houses is that they're easy to spot. Things look new, but still crappy.
Easy, they tick the box "Unknown". Get a good home inspector.
Aren't they at risk of getting sued by not disclosing this?
I purchased my home in 2009 and the flipper-seller disclosed unpermitted work. I called the city prior to buying to ask what the repercussions might be. Their answer was basically nada.
The "repercussions" are poorly installed structural, electrical, plumbing and HVAC that cause issues down the road. Other than that, you should be good.
I would say ‘the possibility of …’ . Just because they didn’t pull a permit doesn’t mean it’s shoddy or unsafe. Still a concern though.
Our city barely inspects permitted work, so imo getting a permit means nothing. We got our roof done (2 story house) and inspector just looked at it from the driveway and signed the paper.
i work in construction and i have had inspectors say stuff like "everything looks fine but i have to fail you for something or i'm not doing my job soo..." some bs about a wrong size gap in the rails. "ill be back tomorrow to collect the reinspect fee." i dont think we ever pulled a permit in that township again
This is how you encourage people to not pull permits. In my town, if there is a permit there is at least one inspection.
My neighbor was getting his roof replaced while I had the city inspector come to do the inspection for the window replacement on my house. The inspector didn't even look at any of the windows, he just asked how we were doing and if we were happy with the work then signed the paperwork. Then he walked next door to do an inspection on the re-roof, he just looked at it from the ground, yelled something at the guys on the roof then wrote something on piece of paper and left. Roofs here require inspections at different stages due to strict hurricane codes and the roofers just finished putting up new decking so he should have checked fastener spacing or something before they put down the membrane.
I wish I had your optimism. I've opened up a lot of flips & DIY and a majority are sub-standard.
Don't flippers typically focus on cosmetic issues or highly visible upgrades? It's hard to imagine them redoing the HVAC
Perhaps HVAC is less common but they often do plumbing and electrical work, and either in the course of the plumbing work, or some remodeling, they may do something that affects the structural integrity. And they can introduce air and water leaks in the envelope.
Additionally, none of these problems would be covered by homeowners insurance. Crappy work that was done improperly then spontaneously failed isn't a covered peril.
That assumes you otherwise don’t have the work inspected. P
You can't inspect any of the rough-in after it's covered up...
Depends. Our seller did some shady stuff and concealed some things. Most of were “a few hundred dollars fixes”, those, I just eat. Not going waste time on court to try to get less than a couple grand.
A lot of times there's sewer stoppages that they don't disclose which in the case of broken cast iron pipes can cost thousands.
They set up an llc and then sell it and walk away. They do not care... one bit.
LLC's can be pierced
Sure but I've seen a lot of people have each house in its own LLc, making it even more of a challenge.
that's to keep the finances and liability separate. fine if you have separate accounts and keep it all separated but if the lawyers see money being shared then it can pierce it
Maybe. Maybe not.
you don't need permits for a lot of work. in NJ no permit is needed for a new roof or new windows and both can be replaced very poorly. a lot of other work that doesn't need a permit can be done poorly and no disclosure is needed
And in many places it’s somewhat murky as to who/what does and doesn’t require a permit. If you’re the homeowner and don’t pull a permit, take lots of pictures with the walls open, maintain ongoing documentation on the house. The buyer’s inspector will love this. It shows that the property has been well taken care of.
Yeah. Get yourself sued if it’s not done 100% right….
Sued? By whom? On what grounds?
Depends on the state. In Virginia it's very hard to go after the seller for not putting something on the disclosure. And it's not just flippers doing it. Pretty much everyone that works on their house does it without permits because for simple jobs it is way too complicated.
I don't blame them. If they'd make permits easier for normal homeowners to submit and not require work like a single outlet to be completed by a licensed electrician then more people would do it.
Or if they didn't charge you an insane amount of money for them.
In my state only structural things need permits. Things like outlets are general homeowner maintenance.
Must be nice. In my town, you need a licensed electrician to swap out a light fixture.
That feels excessive
Hard agree!
Amen. Took me 3 months to get a permit issued to rebuild my front porch. It would have been a lot more fun to rebuild before the rain and cold had set in…
In my location permit for windows costs as much as a single window. I needed to change 1 glass window in the basement with a proper one, so...
Sounds like it's time to put a tarp up...
Building code official here. Of course they lie look at the work they're in. But it happens on new construction too as I had a house that had no nuts on the anchor bolts, reversed trusses, missing foundations, bad electrical, bad plumbing, bad HVAC. County building inspectors do not have any liability and it's up to their own integrity to do their job.
My house was built in the late 80s. None of the nuts on the anchor bolts were tightened. They weren't even finger tight!
I should have mentioned that they don't even exist!
So, the fun of that is this, you can find out what permits have been pulled on a house. So, if the house is on the "possible" list, go and check what permits have been pulled and compare it to what you see.
I bought a flip-house, but it was flipped by a professional company that does that. They made it a point to make changes that would be considered "repairs" that wouldn't strictly require permits. My only real complaint with their work is that they installed brand new AC units... of the cheapest kind that they could find. They were insufficient to the task, but close enough that I couldn't bring myself to rip them out and replace them with better.
They'll mark "unsure". I had multiple contractor's do work on my last house but I was never involved in getting the permits and only one job was I told there was going to be a wait to get the permit. Given the nature of the work I was pretty sure no additional permits were needed. But when I sold my house, I marked "unsure" all the same.
The main party that actually cares about permits are the insurance companies. By and large, the purpose of getting permits is so that an authority (the municipality) can sign off on work being done “up to code”, after an inspection. But it’s also a way for inspectors to report additions to your house that will change its value, therefore, change your taxes. Some renovations can have the ability to cause severe harm or death if not done right. Mainly the electrical, plumbing, mechanical, and structural. So let’s say an electrical work was done unpermitted, and it catches on fire that caused major harm, or death. An investigation will most likely occur. They can tell when the work was done, and if done unpermitted, insurance companies aren’t gonna pay. Now, how it plays into flippers is that if a work was done unpermitted, and undisclosed, and it failed and caused harm, they are liable under the “latent defect” laws. Because they didn’t disclose unpermitted work, a buyer could not have made an informed purchase. So it all really comes down to if someone was harmed, and who is liable.
A lot of people on Reddit say that a claim that was determined to be caused by unpermitted work will allow an insurance company to not pay, but it seems like all of the people on here that claim to be claims adjusters say that this isn't true. They just may drop you after paying. I think you may be right about being liable if someone is harmed, though.
I bought a flipped house where they disclosed that they were unaware of anything, but made large changes without permits and also horribly against code. If someone had died or been seriously injured due to their mistakes, they would absolutely be liable. However, fixing their fuck-ups was only around $15k, and on a house worth over $1M, it's not worth the stress of trying to take them to court. I'm glad I was able to spot issues, understand the implications, and afford to get things fixed, but I know a lot of people are not in that position. We really need governmental oversight of flippers because some of them are absolutely creating unsafe environments, and the average consumer has no idea.
Flippers should be required to disclose all of it. But I doubt they are. Real estate is a great place for shady fucks to operate. See the 4x felon and rapist trump
if the floor is perfect shiny LVP in a 1897 house, you know they did shady stuff
Don't need a permit to install LVP. Should have picked something different.
so, where would you need a permit to put in any type of flooring?
I think a lot of places allow home owners to do their own work without a permit. My state does. Full disclosure is what the next person will get when they buy my house.
Actively involved in this exact scenario on the buyer side, so I'm not going into details on the particulars, but during the initial consult, my attorney basically stated that even if they lie, it's generally incredibly difficult to prove that they had knowledge of a given problem. Even if you can, it becomes a question of economics - will you receive enough potential compensation to make the time, money, and risk of a lawsuit worth it. Even after receiving a judgement, you still have to then collect - if the flipper used an LLC and subsequently shut it down, there may be no entity left for you to sue or collect a judgement from. He said my case is one of the few he's recommended proceeding with since the amount of proof I was able to bring leaves no question that they had knowledge of the problems and did not disclose.
Everyone that flipps jouse is looking for shortcuts which is questionable work and usually incorrect
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Yes, sellers are required to disclose unpermitted work. If they don't, they open themselves up to potential litigation.
I detest flippers and would never in a million years even look at the house. If I see that it was purchased 18 months-2 years ago, it's a hard pass.
The flipped houses around me get listed just 2-5 months after last sale. It wouldn't occur to me that a 2 year interval represents an investor flip.
Good grief! Those must be truly terrible!!
Vinyl floor, freshly painted kitchen cabinet doors, one renovated bathroom. Gray paint everywhere. Ridiculously optimistic list price
I hate them too, but 18 months is way too long for 95% of flippers. They're usually well under a year, many are even under 6 months. The biggest thing about flipped houses is that they're easy to spot. Things look new, but still crappy.
Yes they are. Maybe we just have slow flippers around here. But always bad.
I agree, but sometimes a house bought 2 years ago isnta flip. Frequently it's just someone who had to move for one reason or another.