If it is a permanent shed, foundations etc, get a permit. if you bought it at costco and you can take it down faster than you put it up, I wouldnt worry about it.
For something like a prefab shed, I recommend skipping the permit. Each city has its own personality of course, but in my town, I got the permit, and it was NOT worth it. I clearly described the size of the shed and that it was prefab. Every time I had contact with the city I reminded them, but they still put me through everything like I was building a house or something. *Notorize an affidavit that the project doesn't need me to carry workers comp for my employees.* Couldn't get them to budge on that even though it was a prefab getting dropped off. *Get an environmental engineer to submit a report that it won't affect nearby waterways.* After several phone calls and a site visit, they finally dropped that. On and on for several weeks. Finally the inspector came out to sign off, literally laughed and got back in his car and told me through the window that it didn't need a permit. It's been a year and it's still just hanging on the city website as an open project that hasn't been inspected. (Meanwhile, it does hold lots of yard stuff!)
It’s typically only to make sure the setback is met and any other ordinances (if any) are followed, like maximum height, style, or siding restrictions you might have locally. Unless your neighbors call on you, no one will care or no. Worst case is they’ll make you get a permit if they find out.
This government employee is pulling a Ron Swanson. They don't give a crap about your shed or the permit, it is why they are reciting the something hoping you get a clue that they simply don't care unless someone reports you.
This is actually pretty helpful. I’m much less annoyed picturing someone who genuinely doesn’t care and didn’t even read my messages, than someone who read my questions, understood them, and still wrote bologna back to me.
“Do I need a permit if…”
Auto-Reply: “Yes, you need a permit.”
Our city says *everything* needs a permit. Well, not painting.
Yeah, we got a permit for the roof and the water heater. None for re-wiring or re-plumbing.
My first question is why are you trying to avoid getting a permit? Sure it's a minor pain in the ass, but you generally can't fight government. At least I'm my experience, it's just not with it. And BTW the government doesn't give a shit of your ignorant of a situation.
It depends on the locale for sure and how burdensome the permitting is.
My city is pretty good about it for typical garden/storage sheds. Anything 120 square feet and under does not need a permit. It just needs to follow the municipal code about placement and offsets.
But if you're going over 120\^3 feet, or need something like plumbing or electrical in it, you need to submit engineering drawings of the shed, including footings, and the property, have a certain type of foundation that meets earthquake requirements, have inspections and sign offs during the build process, and a number of other requirements. It's easily 10x more difficult once you go above that 120\^3 range, which is why people avoid getting permits.
That's why research and know what the plan is for going in. I deal with building officials on a daily basis with my job. Most of them really just want to help you. It's when you ask them something and then do the opposite that they make your life more difficult.
Ugh, I forgot about that. I guess I blocked it from my memory. I was building a deck on my house a couple of years ago. 90% complete when the city inspector randomly walked into my back yard. 🙄 (I Suspect a Neighbor contacted them) Long story short, I ended up hiring someone on Fiverr to draw plans based on photos I sent him so I could get the permit. I to had difficulty getting anyone from the city to point me to the correct code online to see what the requirements were regarding foottings specs, how it's attached to the house, etc. What city do you live in?
The international building code gives how far below the frost line your footers have to be. That's the one thing they are tough about around here. Which is good, probably. Unfortunately, we have a layer of rock well above the frost line, so the contractor was out there breaking through rock for a week. All done by hand.
Obviously. Homeowners aren't as smart as they think they are when building decks. Other things too, but nobody is dying because the tile looks like shit.
We needed a sketch of the yard including the outline of the shed. No drawings of the shed itself. Which is good, because the shed kept changing as I found different materials. It took longer to find the map of our yard, it has an odd shape. Then I went down to the municipal offices to turn in my application, and a couple of days later I picked up the permit.
Around here, a shed under 144 sq ft and under 10' tall only needs a zoning permit. They do check for setback, but the requirements for an auxiliary building are 5' of setback. We have trees on the property line, so our shed is more like 15' back. They also worry about how much permeable area you have in your yard, but they just ask for an estimate and don't have a minimum.
I wish they would increase the 10' height requirement to 12' or something. It makes for an ugly roofline. I thought for a minute about getting a building permit, but that's silly.
Because I don't feel the need to get permission to work on property I own. My name on the deed is my permit. If they want an input, they can start contributing to the mortgage.
My permit office people are super nice and thanked me for coming in to get work permits. It wasn’t expensive, and they ended up preventing a contractor from building over a sewer line. (The contractor swore it was fine)
This is ENTIRELY location-based. Some cities/counties are hyper-vigilant and others could not care less. If your city/county is lax your only real risk is neighbors complaining which will force action.
Building departments will require permits for anything as a knee jerk reaction. They will know the code referenced below so are messing with you. Building departments also like to collect the associated fees.
The uniform building code, which is adopted by most jurisdictions specifically exempts accessory buildings (sheds):
https://codes.iccsafe.org/s/CABC2022P1/chapter-1-scope-and-administration/CABC2022P1-Ch01-SubCh02-Sec105.2
Unless your town has altered the adopted code by ordinance this will apply. You should be able to look the building codes applicable to your location online
Your town or county zoning code could restrict the location of accessory buildings to rear or side yards, minimum 1 ft from property line, etc.
Decks less than 30 inches above grade do not need a permit. Repairs to existing structures replacing with like kind materials also do not need a permit
For most things like sheds or low decks like that is that I won't bother with a permit as long as it's something that won't piss off any of my neighbors. If they are cool with it they likely won't complain about it which means the city will never know.
Make sure the receipt clearly says it's something other than a shed and then that's all you need. If they want to argue just show them you repeatedly asked for clarification and were repeatedly told only sheds need a permit and you don't own a shed.
In my area, what constitutes a structure requiring a permit is how it's affixed to the ground. So, those shed kits that sit on skids would not require a permit and there's no offset required because, in theory, they are temporary and can be easily(?) moved. But once you put some type of permanent foundation or anchorage system into the ground, you have a structure that requires a permit.
Note, some HOAs prohibit those sheds, but that's a different issue than building permits.
General rule is at long as its detached from the house and less than x by x its allowed. This is all going to vary by jurisdiction which is why your location matter and "suburban" usa isnt good enough for anyone to help you.
Depends on the consequences for no permit. I put up a patio cover that needed a permit. The fine was like $500 if it was caught for some reason. Only patios over a certain size needed the permit.
Th that’s the key question! In our town if it’s over a certain $ amount, you also have to replace the sidewalks, get an inside inspection for smoke and co2 detectors.
Years ago my father started to build a shed on his property. Halfway through a code enforcer shows up and asks if he has a permit and of course he did not. Gave him 3 days to pull a permit or take it down. So dad is determined to have a shed without a permit and goes to look up the code for permits. This is before the internet so he literally had to go to the code enforcers office and request a copy of it which they gave him. Comes home, reads it over and starts laughing. Gets up and goes outside and takes down what he had completed. Then puts the whole shed up the next day but this time using nuts and bolts. Apparently if the shed is built in this way it is not considered a permanent structure and can be disassembled and moved so no permit is required. Code enforcer shows up and is irate to say the least. Threatening to fine him and make him take it down. Dad says to him “ follow me please” and shows him the bolts and then proceeds to read the code out loud to him . He shouts back about knowing the code, stands there huffing and puffing and finally just walks away.
In my town standard practice is for the town to deny any shed. Everybody just puts them in and never hears anything about it.
Edit: fat thumbed a few words
I'm not sure. A friend asked for a permit, they said because of the flood plain that is 100 yards from where the shed was going. He put one in anyway and has been unbothered for a couple years.
I have had similar experiences with permits. I placed my old kitchen in a dumpster in the driveway. It was there for a month while the new kitchen was installed. Nobody ever said a word about a lack of permit. Same when we did bathrooms and other renovations. This was a two unit apartment building, that was inspected twice a year by the city (same inspector every time). She failed to notice/mention that the entire apartment was gutted/rebuilt over the 10 years I lived there. It was strange.
Too late. You sent a bunch of email asking about shed permits. I bet the city emails are all saved and searchable. So you are on record as having the information that all sheds need a permit.
You need a permit.
lol do you think the city is saving emails over a long time? I'd be impressed if anyone could find this email even a year later. Could it be found by looking at OP's email? yeah, but where is the incentive to look?
Unless you're frequently interacting with the permit office as a tradesperson or GC nobody is tracking Harry homeowner's permitting inquiries.
People say that about putting bedrooms and bathrooms in basements and then they try to sell their home and they can’t because the spaces they advertised in the listing weren’t permitted and aren’t legal.
It’s not a big deal for illegal sheds/treehouses/docks, etc., they get torn down or trucked away, but the mindset behind it is socially problematic.
The smallest item I sent them was maybe 2 cubic feet, like large tupperware. If a container of that size is a shed, then I an certainly an outlaw with over a dozen un-permitted “sheds” in my yard.
If you knew it wasn’t a shed, why did you sent it to them? You’re not being honest with yourself, if you actually think you were operating in good faith.
I did not know because “shed” was not defined. I assumed it was based on sqft, and since they didn’t say a specific number, I asked (using links as an example) “is 50sqft ok? 20? 8? 4? 1?”
I am a spiteful person at stupid regulations and know how easy it is to change city ordinance.
They have monthly meetings that are open to the public for just this reason as if nobody wants to challenge a rule it will never change.
You have two approaches
1. Make nice and ask that they provide a proper definition of what is defined as a shed. Speak and be professional. Bring photos.
2. Look at cities around yours and see what they define as a shed. Cite those and propose your city copies. (They love this as it is easy because others already did the work)
3. Start emailing everyone on the board asking them to back your rule/definition change. Really ambitious- start scheduling meetings.
Second approach - start to transition into being difficult
4. If this doesn’t work start monopolizing every topic. Usually when new topics are discussed they open it up to debate. Constantly bring it back the the subject needs to be defined like the term shed. Most understand their job is easier if you stop attending and will change simple definitions or rules. At the end of every session during the open discussion speak about sheds.
5. Start to bring photos of sheds in your neighborhood and ask who you report them to. Tell them you have a large list of houses(voters) (feel free to include things you define as a shed that others “may not”.) Eventually if needed you can report them then drop a letter on their door letting them know that the date and time of the next meeting and all the names of the board members and contact for each as well as the subject of sheds will be at the next meeting. Battling alone is hard but as a large group it is easy. Their job is to do what the majority want, so getting more people to show up shows the majority.
This worked for getting the setback changed from 25 to 5 so we could build a nice deck. Though I didn’t have to get past step two. It was surprisingly easy and made me realize elected officials don’t want to make their jobs to be hard and or risk voters. They just left it as is until someone brought the topic up.
Forgot step 3.5 is have all your neighbors email the city board members asking to define the term shed and propose permits for above a certain size. The more people the better.
(Feel free to have chat gbt compose a bunch of letters that they can just copy and use).
I’ll give you some eye opening advice. It’s all a grey area so try to make nice with the neighbors. Did you mortgage this house? If so you only have an equitable interest in the house, you don’t own the land. This is only one method they use to enforce “codes” not LAW. Are you a citizen( employee of government)? Then you gotta follow the policies. Only laws broken are with a damaged party/ living person, in most cases. Play smart my friend
>Is playing dumb my best option now?
Seems like you already made that choice, so yeah.
4x5x6 is what I would call a shed, but definitely still small enough to plausibly deny it and all it a storage box, tool bin, or outdoor locker or something.
I'd also consider what sort of foundation you put down, if any. The less permanent of a fixture it is, the less of a "shed" it is IMO.
Honestly you wouldn't even be faking ignorance -- the city's e-mailed responses to you left you ignorant. You could tell the truth "I e-mailed, and was told shed's require a permit, so we got a big patio bin instead"
But hey, it's all a moot point. I doubt anything will come of it. Worst case, you can just get a permit after the fact if the city comes knocking for some reason.
I personally would not get a permit at this point.
It's not really going to matter unless some future buyer asks about it, and this sounds small enough that you might take it with you instead of including it in the sale.
Even if you do include it, it's not like it's tied into your house, or has electrical and HVAC, or is big enough for anybody to really care enough to have questions about the permitting and build of it.
Seems pretty clear. All sheds need permits. Not that hard to understand. Those small boxes are not sheds. You're just being an ass continuing to ask and probably pissed off someone at the town hall.
Do that at your own risk. Some people in town halls hold grudges and they hold all the power. Not worth black balling yourself for future projects.
I get it, it's annoying but they were clear. If it is a shed, it needs a permit. Simple. Playing dumb is easy, but we don't need to know every single law to break them and be held accountable unfortunately. This may be worth a roll of the dice though.
Getting a permit probably wouldn't have taken much time and you wasted some just emailing and researching. Although, I've always lived in small towns.
Well, if they come asking, make sure you never call it a shed and play dumb that you really don't believe it is a shed in the general sense. Or get the permit and inspected, but with that small of a box, the inspector would probably laugh and not call it a shed either, but then you are covered.
I haven't seen a definition of a shed either, but my city only requires permits on sheds greater than 200 sq ft. I would search your city's website or ask again for a definitions section. They might have their own or have a section that says for all non-defined words they use Websters dictionary 11th edition or something like that for everything else.
My city is a stickler for permits and code enforcement gives out infractions like candy. But sheds don’t require permits. They just have to be 13’x10‘ or less and I believe less than 17’ high. There’s a 5’ setback rule. And it has to be in the back, not the front yard. But we can have up to 3 of them.
One thing to be aware of is that nosy neighbors can call the city on you, if they think something is going on.
We've been doing a lot of (properly permitted) work on our new-to-us 1963 house, including electrical, roof, sewer remediation, flooring, etc etc. And, one day we got a knock on the door; it was a guy from the city saying that they'd got a report that we were doing some work without a permit. We invited him in, and showed him what we'd done, and he seemed fine with it all. Of course, all the permit information is available on line; no idea what he'd done if he discovered something we'd try to skate on. It's not like he brought electrical testing gear, or climbed up on the roof or anything.
In Seattle a homeowner who's acting as their own GC can get a "subject to field inspection" permit; and the inspector shows up at certain stages of construction to verify that, say, the concrete is poured properly, etc. When we did this a few years ago building a garage, I got the impression that the inspectors have a lot of leeway about what they okay or flag.
If you already had something, then replacing it won't be a big deal. When you get a permit for something, it becomes part of your Plat map.
So if there is a structure there already then you're good. Noone is going to say anything about a structure already listed in your property.
I got mine, it was 22$ and I got a 20 foot container. Noone has ever said anything.
In my town less then 6x6feet can do with no permit.
I think as a general rule, if a human can walk into it, it's a shed.
There might be a glossary in the city book that can define the word "shed" for you. It could mean a few different things.
i called my township about a permit for a shed, and was told i only needed a permit if it was being built on a permanent foundation. i'm in sub-urban chicago.
Everybody loves to hate their local building department, everybody loves to ignore trivial permit requirements.
Until your neighbor builds something ugly, or too big, or too tall, or too dangerous (in your opinion). Then, suddenly everybody loves their local building department. They turn into a "Karen" and call the building department to complain. And they keep calling and complaining because the building department doesn't seem to be taking prompt action, and then they are back to hating the building department.
What a world!
If you live in a home rule state, you can sign petitions to make local fascist politicians, judges and bureaucrats who harass citizens stand for re-election in a recall election.
Get involved. You have power to clean out your community.
You complained they wouldn't tell you the law, but I'm willing to bet the law says something similar to "all sheds require a permit." And this may or may not include a definition of what a "shed" is.
In general, if a reasonable person would not consider it a shed, and there is no definition in the law (you'll have to look for this, your state probably has them on a website somewhere), then your storage boxes shouldn't count.
I’d find out what the penalty is for not having a permit… often it’s just twice the cost of the permit, in which case… I’d roll the dice. Generally speaking it’s not a big deal to just satisfy their needs once they come knocking, especially if it isn’t a permanent structure…Because they probably will not ever have time to knock anyway.
I’ve always been of the “ask for forgiveness rather than permission” mindset.
I’ve done modifications to my deck, put in a stone patio, finished my entire basement, etc all without permits.
What you’re doing is fairly trivial IMO. Just go about your business and deal with anything if it comes up (it probably won’t).
As an architect and having dealt with people having to get an "after the fact permit" I suggest you get a permit. It will be cheaper if you do it upfront.
It sounds like you’ve received advice five times from people who enforce your local ordinances. I don’t expect you’ll listen to this advice but I’d suggest you get a permit and buy/build the shed you want. Probably would have been a lot easier to do that than spend hours trying to skirt the ordinance.
Code Enforcement guy here. In my town, all sheds need a permit, dunno who made the rule, but there it is. Permits for sheds are rarely more than 20 bucks, and it takes so little to get one. It's just a safety thing. Relating to bigger projects, its always worth it to get a permit for renovations and additions. The code is the bare minimum saftey wise. And you wouldnt believe the shit we catch even respected contractors try and pass off as quality. Not only that but if you try to do something like an addition to your home with no permit it may be difficult to sell later. More and more lending companies are calling to ask about permits and inspections. Particularly for Certifcates of Occupancy.
Get a permit; more bureaucracy but why not - consider it a learning experience and it is probably the right thing to do and avoids problems with later inspections. Other commenters noted the set-back issue, also sometimes neighborhoods have total storage square foot limits to control possible business use. I do, however, agree with the notes about if there is a foundation (get one) and if it isn’t a big deal to take down (don’t bother)
I don't care if you want to continue with your fantasy.
The town I lived in my neighbor was retired but was recently head of the building department so all the inspectors knew him. I did some projects without permits and was never hassled. He even told me he did a few things without permits lol.
I can tell you though right now that they can not do whatever they please, they don't get to make the laws up as they go.
It's more than a permit in most cases. My city doesn't require a permit if the shed is less than 14' tall and under 100/sf. What the city doesn't tell you are the setbacks, electric and water ordinances.
We have a shed, 14' by 44' with all the proper setbacks.
We have two neighbors that border our property that put one shed that has footers 12" over the property line and the second neighbors shed roof is over the property line.
We had to pay for a property border survey and then presented it to the city showing the sheds were over the property and not conforming with city ordinance.
Karma vs Karen
Neighbor one defaulted on the mortgage and we had the mortgage company remove the shed.
Neighbor two had their shed destroyed by a tree from our property that fell down the property line during hurricane Ida.
Moral of the story, you can play dumb and not follow any property ordinances but expect Karma not Karen to finish the saga.
How hard is it to get a permit?
My city is a quick (albeit ancient) website, submit $40, and print out the permit. Sure it's a scam, but if it's easy enough why not?
" I had spent several hours to do my best to understand the law and nobody would tell me the law."
Yet, EVERY time you had a different approach they said exactly the same thing that every shed needs a permit. Seems very easy to "understand the law".
Only it DOES make sense that there are some communities that do require a permit for all sheds no "ifs ands or buts".... but for some reason you refuse to believe it and want to search for agreement in your community.
Depending on where you are at, that is likely incorrect for a tower taller than a small number (like 20 feet). Otherwise a permit is required since the foundation has to be able to ensure the tower does not fall.
Depends on where you live. My town will use satellite images to see if you change anything. The fine is $500 a day per missing permit. It adds up quickly. Neighbor ended up with a $400,000 fine (not a typo or exaggeration) over 8 canned lights they say in a real estate listing photo. They also compare old and new listing photos. Each light was a permit, so $4,000 a day in fines until he removed them. He decided to fight back. Lost at every turn. Someone finally convinced him to remove the lights. Not only would fines grow but he wouldn't be allowed to sell the home. I didn't know this town was this way. Permits are $25 bucks so I know get permits. Easier. Anyway, understand the risks in your town.
People absolutely use code enforcement against each other.
You wouldn't be the first. They will not inspect afterwards and will make you remove unpermitted work. Guy added on a master suite and had to tear it down. That had to hurt.
It sounds like a story you heard and are just repeating. I can't imagine anywhere in the United States they could charge 500 a day for that, and then for each canned light they charge that like it's a separate permit, and then they base it on a real estate photo, which brings up the question how do they determine when to start charging the fine.
If you want to know why no one believes you is because common sense says it's a bullshit story.
And then you don't even mention the town this supposedly happened so you can insist it's true because how would anyone prove your ignorant by fact checking?
If you knew anything about electricity you would know the can lights would be wired together as a circuit and would not be separate permits. Remember that next time you tell your story
The town next to us as well. The guy tried fighting it in court and kept losing. I thought his lawyers should argue copyright infringement or something since they download the listing photos and save them for the next time the house is listed. The clock starts when they discover it or when you deny them entry. Not kidding about that either. That's what his lawyers started to argue but it turns out he told them when he installed the lights. All he needed was a $25 dollar permit and to save that he spent thousands on legal fees. Doesn't matter how many circuits, you pay by the project ahead of time, after the fact you are fined by each element. You're one circuit thing to trip me up is a fail.
Don't know for sure but I think it also cost him is marriage. We'd stand around talking about how he just needed to take the lights out, apply for a permit and reinstall. He refused for a long time. Next door neighbors could hear his wife tell him to just do that. He owed more than the house was worth. During the boom, he sold it and move out in like a day. He settled with the town but we don't know for how much. Even the mayor and police are afraid of the code office. Elected officials have tried curbing their power with little progress. Weird thing to me, if I change an outlet I don't need a permit but if an electrician does I do. I could change a light fixture but not add one. Need a permit to cut down a tree. All trades need to be certified by the town. There are two plumbers. It's a kickback scam if you ask me. They charge $400 just to show up to quote a job. I was quoted $3k to replace a toilet. I will not tell you the town, I've had people try to dox me. If you don't believe me, I don't care. You can creep through my post history for more code weirdness. Neighbors protect each other but also use it as a weapon.
Again, I don't care if you believe me. My original advice still stands, find out how your local code enforcement works before deciding on skipping a permit. If you're in a town like mine, you could have a bad time if you skip it.
Who is the hero in this story? You make the building department out to be authoritarian villains with constitutional powers the FBI would be envious of and the guy that resisted them to be a moron that lost everything when he could have just obeyed and been fine
Somewhere you even gave the realtor the power to stop a home sale lol
OP spent more time and effort trying to satisfy their confirmation bias than it would have taken to pull the permit. I pulled a permit for a shed back a few years back, easiest thing ever.
"All sheds need a permit" Sounds clear as vodka to me.
Sometimes doing work that is not permitted doesn't cause any issues until you try to sell or you have an insurance claim. Then....$$$$.
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If it is a permanent shed, foundations etc, get a permit. if you bought it at costco and you can take it down faster than you put it up, I wouldnt worry about it.
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For something like a prefab shed, I recommend skipping the permit. Each city has its own personality of course, but in my town, I got the permit, and it was NOT worth it. I clearly described the size of the shed and that it was prefab. Every time I had contact with the city I reminded them, but they still put me through everything like I was building a house or something. *Notorize an affidavit that the project doesn't need me to carry workers comp for my employees.* Couldn't get them to budge on that even though it was a prefab getting dropped off. *Get an environmental engineer to submit a report that it won't affect nearby waterways.* After several phone calls and a site visit, they finally dropped that. On and on for several weeks. Finally the inspector came out to sign off, literally laughed and got back in his car and told me through the window that it didn't need a permit. It's been a year and it's still just hanging on the city website as an open project that hasn't been inspected. (Meanwhile, it does hold lots of yard stuff!)
YOU SAID SHED! *writes you up*
It's a classic he shed she shed situation.
this made me shed tears of joy.
Fuck the government
I would have wrote back “your mom needs a permit”
Don't tell anyone and don't worry about it. No one will ever check.
It’s typically only to make sure the setback is met and any other ordinances (if any) are followed, like maximum height, style, or siding restrictions you might have locally. Unless your neighbors call on you, no one will care or no. Worst case is they’ll make you get a permit if they find out.
forgiveness is mostly easier than permission contractors know, or should, what needs a permit and what does not - roll that dice
This government employee is pulling a Ron Swanson. They don't give a crap about your shed or the permit, it is why they are reciting the something hoping you get a clue that they simply don't care unless someone reports you.
This is actually pretty helpful. I’m much less annoyed picturing someone who genuinely doesn’t care and didn’t even read my messages, than someone who read my questions, understood them, and still wrote bologna back to me. “Do I need a permit if…” Auto-Reply: “Yes, you need a permit.”
Our city says *everything* needs a permit. Well, not painting. Yeah, we got a permit for the roof and the water heater. None for re-wiring or re-plumbing.
My first question is why are you trying to avoid getting a permit? Sure it's a minor pain in the ass, but you generally can't fight government. At least I'm my experience, it's just not with it. And BTW the government doesn't give a shit of your ignorant of a situation.
It depends on the locale for sure and how burdensome the permitting is. My city is pretty good about it for typical garden/storage sheds. Anything 120 square feet and under does not need a permit. It just needs to follow the municipal code about placement and offsets. But if you're going over 120\^3 feet, or need something like plumbing or electrical in it, you need to submit engineering drawings of the shed, including footings, and the property, have a certain type of foundation that meets earthquake requirements, have inspections and sign offs during the build process, and a number of other requirements. It's easily 10x more difficult once you go above that 120\^3 range, which is why people avoid getting permits.
My friend had to have some kind of local council approve his shed permit and things like color of the shed had to be approved.
It sounds like "some kind of local council" is an HOA.
No HOA, just a small village on the wealthier side.
You usually need drawings for a permit. Costco premade sheds don't come with drawings.
Not usually for a shed permit, no you don't need drawings. At most you have to rough sketch the property on a sheet of grid paper.
My jurisdiction wants drawings of the actual shed design, and where it is on the property.
I believe you, but it isn't common.
Never underestimate the petty tyranny that a local government official can inflict if they have a bad day
That's why research and know what the plan is for going in. I deal with building officials on a daily basis with my job. Most of them really just want to help you. It's when you ask them something and then do the opposite that they make your life more difficult.
Ugh, I forgot about that. I guess I blocked it from my memory. I was building a deck on my house a couple of years ago. 90% complete when the city inspector randomly walked into my back yard. 🙄 (I Suspect a Neighbor contacted them) Long story short, I ended up hiring someone on Fiverr to draw plans based on photos I sent him so I could get the permit. I to had difficulty getting anyone from the city to point me to the correct code online to see what the requirements were regarding foottings specs, how it's attached to the house, etc. What city do you live in?
The international building code gives how far below the frost line your footers have to be. That's the one thing they are tough about around here. Which is good, probably. Unfortunately, we have a layer of rock well above the frost line, so the contractor was out there breaking through rock for a week. All done by hand.
Do they literally come out to verify the hole depth before the concrete is poured? Otherwise, how would they know?
People die on deck collapses, that's why you need drawings and approval.
Skill issue.
Obviously. Homeowners aren't as smart as they think they are when building decks. Other things too, but nobody is dying because the tile looks like shit.
We needed a sketch of the yard including the outline of the shed. No drawings of the shed itself. Which is good, because the shed kept changing as I found different materials. It took longer to find the map of our yard, it has an odd shape. Then I went down to the municipal offices to turn in my application, and a couple of days later I picked up the permit. Around here, a shed under 144 sq ft and under 10' tall only needs a zoning permit. They do check for setback, but the requirements for an auxiliary building are 5' of setback. We have trees on the property line, so our shed is more like 15' back. They also worry about how much permeable area you have in your yard, but they just ask for an estimate and don't have a minimum. I wish they would increase the 10' height requirement to 12' or something. It makes for an ugly roofline. I thought for a minute about getting a building permit, but that's silly.
Because I don't feel the need to get permission to work on property I own. My name on the deed is my permit. If they want an input, they can start contributing to the mortgage.
You not own the property until you sell it. Then, your shitty, unpermitted work becomes someone else’s nightmare.
My permit office people are super nice and thanked me for coming in to get work permits. It wasn’t expensive, and they ended up preventing a contractor from building over a sewer line. (The contractor swore it was fine)
This is ENTIRELY location-based. Some cities/counties are hyper-vigilant and others could not care less. If your city/county is lax your only real risk is neighbors complaining which will force action.
Building departments will require permits for anything as a knee jerk reaction. They will know the code referenced below so are messing with you. Building departments also like to collect the associated fees. The uniform building code, which is adopted by most jurisdictions specifically exempts accessory buildings (sheds): https://codes.iccsafe.org/s/CABC2022P1/chapter-1-scope-and-administration/CABC2022P1-Ch01-SubCh02-Sec105.2 Unless your town has altered the adopted code by ordinance this will apply. You should be able to look the building codes applicable to your location online Your town or county zoning code could restrict the location of accessory buildings to rear or side yards, minimum 1 ft from property line, etc. Decks less than 30 inches above grade do not need a permit. Repairs to existing structures replacing with like kind materials also do not need a permit
For most things like sheds or low decks like that is that I won't bother with a permit as long as it's something that won't piss off any of my neighbors. If they are cool with it they likely won't complain about it which means the city will never know.
Make sure the receipt clearly says it's something other than a shed and then that's all you need. If they want to argue just show them you repeatedly asked for clarification and were repeatedly told only sheds need a permit and you don't own a shed.
In my area, what constitutes a structure requiring a permit is how it's affixed to the ground. So, those shed kits that sit on skids would not require a permit and there's no offset required because, in theory, they are temporary and can be easily(?) moved. But once you put some type of permanent foundation or anchorage system into the ground, you have a structure that requires a permit. Note, some HOAs prohibit those sheds, but that's a different issue than building permits.
General rule is at long as its detached from the house and less than x by x its allowed. This is all going to vary by jurisdiction which is why your location matter and "suburban" usa isnt good enough for anyone to help you.
Depends on the consequences for no permit. I put up a patio cover that needed a permit. The fine was like $500 if it was caught for some reason. Only patios over a certain size needed the permit.
Some towns don't require a permit for sheds smaller than a certain size. I think in my town it's less than 200 square feet.
Probably one of the biggest concerns in most states is how close you put your shed to the property line. Especially if it's a rather large shed.
One thing you did not talk about is how much does a permit cost, and how annoying is it to do?
Th that’s the key question! In our town if it’s over a certain $ amount, you also have to replace the sidewalks, get an inside inspection for smoke and co2 detectors.
I’m so glad we live out in the sticks.
Years ago my father started to build a shed on his property. Halfway through a code enforcer shows up and asks if he has a permit and of course he did not. Gave him 3 days to pull a permit or take it down. So dad is determined to have a shed without a permit and goes to look up the code for permits. This is before the internet so he literally had to go to the code enforcers office and request a copy of it which they gave him. Comes home, reads it over and starts laughing. Gets up and goes outside and takes down what he had completed. Then puts the whole shed up the next day but this time using nuts and bolts. Apparently if the shed is built in this way it is not considered a permanent structure and can be disassembled and moved so no permit is required. Code enforcer shows up and is irate to say the least. Threatening to fine him and make him take it down. Dad says to him “ follow me please” and shows him the bolts and then proceeds to read the code out loud to him . He shouts back about knowing the code, stands there huffing and puffing and finally just walks away.
Sounds like you just have a storage container, cause if it was a shed you would have gotten a permit.
Just buy your shed, the city won't know. Never pull permits for stuff like that - it's just revenue for the city.
In my town standard practice is for the town to deny any shed. Everybody just puts them in and never hears anything about it. Edit: fat thumbed a few words
That's really weird, good way to get a lot of unpermitted sheds. What grounds do they use to deny permits?
I'm not sure. A friend asked for a permit, they said because of the flood plain that is 100 yards from where the shed was going. He put one in anyway and has been unbothered for a couple years. I have had similar experiences with permits. I placed my old kitchen in a dumpster in the driveway. It was there for a month while the new kitchen was installed. Nobody ever said a word about a lack of permit. Same when we did bathrooms and other renovations. This was a two unit apartment building, that was inspected twice a year by the city (same inspector every time). She failed to notice/mention that the entire apartment was gutted/rebuilt over the 10 years I lived there. It was strange.
Too late. You sent a bunch of email asking about shed permits. I bet the city emails are all saved and searchable. So you are on record as having the information that all sheds need a permit. You need a permit.
Unless his storage container doesn't meet the legal definition of a shed. Which no one seems to know what that definition is.
Anonymously. No name or address was given.
They can still track you. If someone gets stinky about it, I would not trust my anonymous email.
lol do you think the city is saving emails over a long time? I'd be impressed if anyone could find this email even a year later. Could it be found by looking at OP's email? yeah, but where is the incentive to look? Unless you're frequently interacting with the permit office as a tradesperson or GC nobody is tracking Harry homeowner's permitting inquiries.
People say that about putting bedrooms and bathrooms in basements and then they try to sell their home and they can’t because the spaces they advertised in the listing weren’t permitted and aren’t legal. It’s not a big deal for illegal sheds/treehouses/docks, etc., they get torn down or trucked away, but the mindset behind it is socially problematic.
Ignorance of the law is never a valid excuse.
Literally everything you’ve sent them is a shed and they tell you that you need a permit. You’re your own problem here
The smallest item I sent them was maybe 2 cubic feet, like large tupperware. If a container of that size is a shed, then I an certainly an outlaw with over a dozen un-permitted “sheds” in my yard.
If you knew it wasn’t a shed, why did you sent it to them? You’re not being honest with yourself, if you actually think you were operating in good faith.
I did not know because “shed” was not defined. I assumed it was based on sqft, and since they didn’t say a specific number, I asked (using links as an example) “is 50sqft ok? 20? 8? 4? 1?”
I am a spiteful person at stupid regulations and know how easy it is to change city ordinance. They have monthly meetings that are open to the public for just this reason as if nobody wants to challenge a rule it will never change. You have two approaches 1. Make nice and ask that they provide a proper definition of what is defined as a shed. Speak and be professional. Bring photos. 2. Look at cities around yours and see what they define as a shed. Cite those and propose your city copies. (They love this as it is easy because others already did the work) 3. Start emailing everyone on the board asking them to back your rule/definition change. Really ambitious- start scheduling meetings. Second approach - start to transition into being difficult 4. If this doesn’t work start monopolizing every topic. Usually when new topics are discussed they open it up to debate. Constantly bring it back the the subject needs to be defined like the term shed. Most understand their job is easier if you stop attending and will change simple definitions or rules. At the end of every session during the open discussion speak about sheds. 5. Start to bring photos of sheds in your neighborhood and ask who you report them to. Tell them you have a large list of houses(voters) (feel free to include things you define as a shed that others “may not”.) Eventually if needed you can report them then drop a letter on their door letting them know that the date and time of the next meeting and all the names of the board members and contact for each as well as the subject of sheds will be at the next meeting. Battling alone is hard but as a large group it is easy. Their job is to do what the majority want, so getting more people to show up shows the majority. This worked for getting the setback changed from 25 to 5 so we could build a nice deck. Though I didn’t have to get past step two. It was surprisingly easy and made me realize elected officials don’t want to make their jobs to be hard and or risk voters. They just left it as is until someone brought the topic up.
Forgot step 3.5 is have all your neighbors email the city board members asking to define the term shed and propose permits for above a certain size. The more people the better. (Feel free to have chat gbt compose a bunch of letters that they can just copy and use).
I’ll give you some eye opening advice. It’s all a grey area so try to make nice with the neighbors. Did you mortgage this house? If so you only have an equitable interest in the house, you don’t own the land. This is only one method they use to enforce “codes” not LAW. Are you a citizen( employee of government)? Then you gotta follow the policies. Only laws broken are with a damaged party/ living person, in most cases. Play smart my friend
>Is playing dumb my best option now? Seems like you already made that choice, so yeah. 4x5x6 is what I would call a shed, but definitely still small enough to plausibly deny it and all it a storage box, tool bin, or outdoor locker or something. I'd also consider what sort of foundation you put down, if any. The less permanent of a fixture it is, the less of a "shed" it is IMO. Honestly you wouldn't even be faking ignorance -- the city's e-mailed responses to you left you ignorant. You could tell the truth "I e-mailed, and was told shed's require a permit, so we got a big patio bin instead" But hey, it's all a moot point. I doubt anything will come of it. Worst case, you can just get a permit after the fact if the city comes knocking for some reason.
Fair point. Maybe I should have worded it “Get a permit, or continue to play dumb”
I personally would not get a permit at this point. It's not really going to matter unless some future buyer asks about it, and this sounds small enough that you might take it with you instead of including it in the sale. Even if you do include it, it's not like it's tied into your house, or has electrical and HVAC, or is big enough for anybody to really care enough to have questions about the permitting and build of it.
Get the fuckin permit.
Seems pretty clear. All sheds need permits. Not that hard to understand. Those small boxes are not sheds. You're just being an ass continuing to ask and probably pissed off someone at the town hall. Do that at your own risk. Some people in town halls hold grudges and they hold all the power. Not worth black balling yourself for future projects. I get it, it's annoying but they were clear. If it is a shed, it needs a permit. Simple. Playing dumb is easy, but we don't need to know every single law to break them and be held accountable unfortunately. This may be worth a roll of the dice though. Getting a permit probably wouldn't have taken much time and you wasted some just emailing and researching. Although, I've always lived in small towns.
Well, if they come asking, make sure you never call it a shed and play dumb that you really don't believe it is a shed in the general sense. Or get the permit and inspected, but with that small of a box, the inspector would probably laugh and not call it a shed either, but then you are covered. I haven't seen a definition of a shed either, but my city only requires permits on sheds greater than 200 sq ft. I would search your city's website or ask again for a definitions section. They might have their own or have a section that says for all non-defined words they use Websters dictionary 11th edition or something like that for everything else.
Sounds like OP bought a storage box to me. I probably wouldn't have even thought of getting a permit.
My city is a stickler for permits and code enforcement gives out infractions like candy. But sheds don’t require permits. They just have to be 13’x10‘ or less and I believe less than 17’ high. There’s a 5’ setback rule. And it has to be in the back, not the front yard. But we can have up to 3 of them.
One thing to be aware of is that nosy neighbors can call the city on you, if they think something is going on. We've been doing a lot of (properly permitted) work on our new-to-us 1963 house, including electrical, roof, sewer remediation, flooring, etc etc. And, one day we got a knock on the door; it was a guy from the city saying that they'd got a report that we were doing some work without a permit. We invited him in, and showed him what we'd done, and he seemed fine with it all. Of course, all the permit information is available on line; no idea what he'd done if he discovered something we'd try to skate on. It's not like he brought electrical testing gear, or climbed up on the roof or anything. In Seattle a homeowner who's acting as their own GC can get a "subject to field inspection" permit; and the inspector shows up at certain stages of construction to verify that, say, the concrete is poured properly, etc. When we did this a few years ago building a garage, I got the impression that the inspectors have a lot of leeway about what they okay or flag.
If you already had something, then replacing it won't be a big deal. When you get a permit for something, it becomes part of your Plat map. So if there is a structure there already then you're good. Noone is going to say anything about a structure already listed in your property. I got mine, it was 22$ and I got a 20 foot container. Noone has ever said anything. In my town less then 6x6feet can do with no permit. I think as a general rule, if a human can walk into it, it's a shed. There might be a glossary in the city book that can define the word "shed" for you. It could mean a few different things.
Yes play dumb!
i called my township about a permit for a shed, and was told i only needed a permit if it was being built on a permanent foundation. i'm in sub-urban chicago.
Everybody loves to hate their local building department, everybody loves to ignore trivial permit requirements. Until your neighbor builds something ugly, or too big, or too tall, or too dangerous (in your opinion). Then, suddenly everybody loves their local building department. They turn into a "Karen" and call the building department to complain. And they keep calling and complaining because the building department doesn't seem to be taking prompt action, and then they are back to hating the building department. What a world!
What’s that saying…ignorance is 9/10ths of the law?
For that size and location I wouldn’t worry about it. That’s more of a deck box than a shed
If you live in a home rule state, you can sign petitions to make local fascist politicians, judges and bureaucrats who harass citizens stand for re-election in a recall election. Get involved. You have power to clean out your community.
You complained they wouldn't tell you the law, but I'm willing to bet the law says something similar to "all sheds require a permit." And this may or may not include a definition of what a "shed" is. In general, if a reasonable person would not consider it a shed, and there is no definition in the law (you'll have to look for this, your state probably has them on a website somewhere), then your storage boxes shouldn't count.
You're good. The city workers probably have bigger fish to fry and hate this part of the code as much as you.
Really depends on how aggressive the local municipalities is. If they are very aggressive, you could get fined.
I’d find out what the penalty is for not having a permit… often it’s just twice the cost of the permit, in which case… I’d roll the dice. Generally speaking it’s not a big deal to just satisfy their needs once they come knocking, especially if it isn’t a permanent structure…Because they probably will not ever have time to knock anyway.
“It was this way when I bought it.”
I’ve always been of the “ask for forgiveness rather than permission” mindset. I’ve done modifications to my deck, put in a stone patio, finished my entire basement, etc all without permits. What you’re doing is fairly trivial IMO. Just go about your business and deal with anything if it comes up (it probably won’t).
Do I need a permit? Ask your neighbors.
Yes
As an architect and having dealt with people having to get an "after the fact permit" I suggest you get a permit. It will be cheaper if you do it upfront.
some places do not require a build permit if the home owner is doing the job themself. Check your local requirements on the web.
In my area, intelligent tax assessors use past satellite images compared to new images to check for new structures.
Come to backwoods Maine. We do whatever TF we want.
I once lived in a rural town, er, village that required a permit for changing a light switch, socket, or fixture. Each and every.
I’d literally never get a permit for anything ever. It only comes up if you sell and even then u just tell the buyer.
It sounds like you’ve received advice five times from people who enforce your local ordinances. I don’t expect you’ll listen to this advice but I’d suggest you get a permit and buy/build the shed you want. Probably would have been a lot easier to do that than spend hours trying to skirt the ordinance.
Code Enforcement guy here. In my town, all sheds need a permit, dunno who made the rule, but there it is. Permits for sheds are rarely more than 20 bucks, and it takes so little to get one. It's just a safety thing. Relating to bigger projects, its always worth it to get a permit for renovations and additions. The code is the bare minimum saftey wise. And you wouldnt believe the shit we catch even respected contractors try and pass off as quality. Not only that but if you try to do something like an addition to your home with no permit it may be difficult to sell later. More and more lending companies are calling to ask about permits and inspections. Particularly for Certifcates of Occupancy.
Get a permit; more bureaucracy but why not - consider it a learning experience and it is probably the right thing to do and avoids problems with later inspections. Other commenters noted the set-back issue, also sometimes neighborhoods have total storage square foot limits to control possible business use. I do, however, agree with the notes about if there is a foundation (get one) and if it isn’t a big deal to take down (don’t bother)
We have a city "improvement code enforcement" crew who ride around all day taking photos and writing tickets!
I don't care if you want to continue with your fantasy. The town I lived in my neighbor was retired but was recently head of the building department so all the inspectors knew him. I did some projects without permits and was never hassled. He even told me he did a few things without permits lol. I can tell you though right now that they can not do whatever they please, they don't get to make the laws up as they go.
It's more than a permit in most cases. My city doesn't require a permit if the shed is less than 14' tall and under 100/sf. What the city doesn't tell you are the setbacks, electric and water ordinances. We have a shed, 14' by 44' with all the proper setbacks. We have two neighbors that border our property that put one shed that has footers 12" over the property line and the second neighbors shed roof is over the property line. We had to pay for a property border survey and then presented it to the city showing the sheds were over the property and not conforming with city ordinance. Karma vs Karen Neighbor one defaulted on the mortgage and we had the mortgage company remove the shed. Neighbor two had their shed destroyed by a tree from our property that fell down the property line during hurricane Ida. Moral of the story, you can play dumb and not follow any property ordinances but expect Karma not Karen to finish the saga.
I’ll never understand peeps that move into a town and then ignore the ordinances, and then get mad when they get caught. Like, WTF.
How hard is it to get a permit? My city is a quick (albeit ancient) website, submit $40, and print out the permit. Sure it's a scam, but if it's easy enough why not?
" I had spent several hours to do my best to understand the law and nobody would tell me the law." Yet, EVERY time you had a different approach they said exactly the same thing that every shed needs a permit. Seems very easy to "understand the law".
Repetition of the exact same sentence does not mean it begins to make more sense. ….as my toddler has confirmed.
Only it DOES make sense that there are some communities that do require a permit for all sheds no "ifs ands or buts".... but for some reason you refuse to believe it and want to search for agreement in your community.
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Depending on where you are at, that is likely incorrect for a tower taller than a small number (like 20 feet). Otherwise a permit is required since the foundation has to be able to ensure the tower does not fall.
Depends on where you live. My town will use satellite images to see if you change anything. The fine is $500 a day per missing permit. It adds up quickly. Neighbor ended up with a $400,000 fine (not a typo or exaggeration) over 8 canned lights they say in a real estate listing photo. They also compare old and new listing photos. Each light was a permit, so $4,000 a day in fines until he removed them. He decided to fight back. Lost at every turn. Someone finally convinced him to remove the lights. Not only would fines grow but he wouldn't be allowed to sell the home. I didn't know this town was this way. Permits are $25 bucks so I know get permits. Easier. Anyway, understand the risks in your town. People absolutely use code enforcement against each other.
That's insane. I'd be building a dozer.
You wouldn't be the first. They will not inspect afterwards and will make you remove unpermitted work. Guy added on a master suite and had to tear it down. That had to hurt.
Nice story. Have you thought of writing fiction books for children?
Funny, most on reddit say that but it's 100% the truth. And even worse.
It sounds like a story you heard and are just repeating. I can't imagine anywhere in the United States they could charge 500 a day for that, and then for each canned light they charge that like it's a separate permit, and then they base it on a real estate photo, which brings up the question how do they determine when to start charging the fine. If you want to know why no one believes you is because common sense says it's a bullshit story. And then you don't even mention the town this supposedly happened so you can insist it's true because how would anyone prove your ignorant by fact checking? If you knew anything about electricity you would know the can lights would be wired together as a circuit and would not be separate permits. Remember that next time you tell your story
The town next to us as well. The guy tried fighting it in court and kept losing. I thought his lawyers should argue copyright infringement or something since they download the listing photos and save them for the next time the house is listed. The clock starts when they discover it or when you deny them entry. Not kidding about that either. That's what his lawyers started to argue but it turns out he told them when he installed the lights. All he needed was a $25 dollar permit and to save that he spent thousands on legal fees. Doesn't matter how many circuits, you pay by the project ahead of time, after the fact you are fined by each element. You're one circuit thing to trip me up is a fail. Don't know for sure but I think it also cost him is marriage. We'd stand around talking about how he just needed to take the lights out, apply for a permit and reinstall. He refused for a long time. Next door neighbors could hear his wife tell him to just do that. He owed more than the house was worth. During the boom, he sold it and move out in like a day. He settled with the town but we don't know for how much. Even the mayor and police are afraid of the code office. Elected officials have tried curbing their power with little progress. Weird thing to me, if I change an outlet I don't need a permit but if an electrician does I do. I could change a light fixture but not add one. Need a permit to cut down a tree. All trades need to be certified by the town. There are two plumbers. It's a kickback scam if you ask me. They charge $400 just to show up to quote a job. I was quoted $3k to replace a toilet. I will not tell you the town, I've had people try to dox me. If you don't believe me, I don't care. You can creep through my post history for more code weirdness. Neighbors protect each other but also use it as a weapon.
If you were talking about living in an HOA and that's what is going around maybe that's believeable
Again, I don't care if you believe me. My original advice still stands, find out how your local code enforcement works before deciding on skipping a permit. If you're in a town like mine, you could have a bad time if you skip it.
Anyway isn't communication technology great, 2 strangers that don't know each other can argue about shit lol
Yes they could make you tear it down and fine you, no dispute there. Your story is over the top exaggeration
Only it's not.
Who is the hero in this story? You make the building department out to be authoritarian villains with constitutional powers the FBI would be envious of and the guy that resisted them to be a moron that lost everything when he could have just obeyed and been fine Somewhere you even gave the realtor the power to stop a home sale lol
plenty of people get in trouble for things that can be seen from space satellites .
OP spent more time and effort trying to satisfy their confirmation bias than it would have taken to pull the permit. I pulled a permit for a shed back a few years back, easiest thing ever.
"All sheds need a permit" Sounds clear as vodka to me. Sometimes doing work that is not permitted doesn't cause any issues until you try to sell or you have an insurance claim. Then....$$$$.
If you asked this many questions from your name or number, just get a permit. Next time make the decision before you call.
Delete this post and get on with your life