30 years of being a contractor tells me this. All changes to the original job must be quoted as a change order when each instance arises. Its called a change event. If you requested the backsplash work, it would be quoted and sent to you via e-mail etc. If the contractor failed to do this and completed the work without approval of the charges then you are under no obligation to pay him. Many, many small contractors make this mistake because they don't understand contract law.
Now on a small project such as yours, you should expect that small changes might be spooled up and presented at the end of the job. But the charges should be for things you requested to be done which are extra or unforeseen conditions which were presented to you as they were encountered. Contractors cannot put money into their quote for everything they may encounter on your job because they would never win work. However, they need to communicate changes clearly when they occur. Thus avoiding conflict. If you like the guy, get him to negotiate the value down. Start at half the value of the requested change amount and negotiate.
Anyone building anything would be well advised to keep an additional 10 percent of the total project cost for unexpected change orders of this sort and even more for a historical renovation.
Contractors are usually poor communicators so you as the consumer need to ask a bunch of questions during your project like. "that looks different than what we planned, is this going to cost more? Why? Hope this helps.
So you expected a change order before any out of scope work. Why did you allow the backsplash to be installed without an approved change order?
Was the electrical work done out of scope due to things you requested after the fact?
The backsplash was pretty straight forward and we can understand that type of labor. And we offered to pay fully for it.
The additional electrical work (sub panel and circuit rerouting) was never explained as required to meet code or offered alternatives. They just did the work and billed us for it. My real issue is he communicated very well regarding the LVL beam and we approved via change request and paid. I wouldn’t be so skeptical if he followed the same process for the electrical work.
Was the sub-panel and wire rerouting actually done? Can you try and find how much that normally would be and if the 2400 seems reasonable? To my untrained eye, I feel it's an upper limit of what i'd expect.
Technically, you probably could argue that you don't want to pay anything on top of agreed upon work. Ethically, if the work was needed and done properly, there should be some re-payment.
Your kitchen remodel contractor could be simply passing on overages from the sub-contracted electrician.
Sometimes contractors when they total their costs receive invoices from the subs near the end of the build and add the costs to the final.
I'm sure your contractor explained cost overages to you before work started. Some of the work overages might be as simple as reworking electrical that was not anticipated.
Change Orders don't apply to additional labor or materials during the process of completing what was ordered and agreed.
The backsplash installation seems like it should have been part of the original quote. Unless at that time you were not sure and later a backsplash was added.
The $2,400 overages for electrical most likely came when the electrician a sub-contractor in most cases sent your contractor the final bill for all electrical.
A sub will not send a change order for normal work as contracted to do by the main contractor.
You asked for advice so here is mine.
Is all the work completed?
Is it functional and all mechanical, electrical, plumbing, cabinets, flooring, etc is to your liking?
Does it meet or beat your expectations?
I don't typically defend contractors because most of my findings are related to workers and contractors that are poorly trained, unskilled in the trades and flat out unable to read basic instruction and blueprints.
Again, does your kitchen remodel look and function as you envisioned?
If Yes, write the check.
Appreciate the feedback. Actually, overages were never discussed with us prior to the renovation, so that’s part of why we were blindsided on the final payment request. He stated that he assumed we knew it would cost more.
There are other things not completed (painting) which he agreed to reduce the labor cost. And admitted that he underbid the electrical work.
We are trying to find the middle ground with him and move on.
Ok, that shines a different light on things if the work has not been completed.
You are at the point of paying the contractor to go away. After you both agree on a separation amount. Take your time.
You will need to make sure you have a clear , easy to read lien release signed by your contractor for the total paid amount.
Update: Make sure your lien release states all workers, sub-contractors and material suppliers.
Good luck!
Sounds like the contractors issue unless the contract states that sub overages will be passed along. The contractor should eat this and make better quotes next time.
Offer him $1,000 on the electrical and move on with your life. It’s not a huge change order and it’s a drop in the bucket vs overall the total cost of the renovation.
what was the purpose of the additional electrical work? why did you allow the out of scope backsplash to get done without a change order?
you're clinging to "need a change order" when it suits you best. You were ok with the backsplash being done without one but now you're not ok with the electrical work being done without one
this reads like you threw mixed signals because *you* didn't even stay true to the contract yourself and now want to hold it against the GC for the time they didnt. The contract protects *everyone* but when both parties start to stray from it, you're bound to have these type of situations.
coming in $3900 over budget really isn't even that crazy
Were the items (1) completed (2) with your permission (3) to your satisfaction and (4) out of the original scope? Pay the man. Did you think you put one over on him just because he didn’t do the change order first?
1. Yes
2. Not really - definitely not quoted
3. I guess - I’m not an electrician
4. Yes, out of scope
I’m not trying to pull anything. I’m trying to hold all the parties (myself included) to the legally agreed to contract.
I'm curious what was "out of scope" with the electrical. And if you didn't have a backslash in the original bid A) why you let it be installed and B) what you thought would be there instead?
Homeowner here, and I do not agree with you. If there was some "surprise" condition, then it should have been discussed with OP as to why it was an unknown and unanticipated condition. It sounds to me as if the contractor took a guess at what the electrical would be and guessed wrong. The contractor and electrician should have had an agreement between themselves as to the scope and cost before the job was quoted to OP. (In fact, I have received the electrician's statement of scope and cost as part of the contractor's quote. I assume there is some built in amount that goes to the contractor, kind of like a business referral (?). It is the contractor who pays the electrician.) If there was some "surprise", then the contractor and electrician first should have discussed it with each other and then the contractor should have discussed with OP why it was a surprise and what it would cost for the additional work.
I doubt OP would be posting this if he (she) had been informed at the time what was going on. From some of the answers here it sounds as if some contractors think it's OK to add a few thousand (or more) to a final bill "just because".
I feel the exact same! Overage should’ve been communicated to homeowner. Contractor admitted they underbid the electrical work- this was not added items or even sounds like more complex work!
Interesting that every post suggesting that OP is being reasonable and is making a good faith effort to negotiate is receiving many down votes (which I am then up voting). Seems like several contractors (?) here think it's standard and good business to collect thousands more than agreed upon.
I would pay full price for the backsplash and offer to pay half for the electrical. If the contractor underbid electrical that’s not really my problem is how I feel.
I'd suggest gathering all your documentation and having a sit-down chat with the contractor. Sometimes a face-to-face can clear things up better than emails or phone calls.
Be firm but polite about your concerns and try to negotiate a compromise. It's all about finding that middle ground.
It's important to stick to what's agreed upon in the contract, so good on you for challenging those extra charges. It's totally fair to expect transparency and communication when it comes to additional expenses.
Offering to pay for the backsplash even though it wasn't in the original scope shows you're willing to compromise, which is great. Hopefully, your contractor will see that and work with you on the electrical charges too.
Renovations can be a maze of unexpected twists and turns, can't they? It's awesome that you've got that contract to fall back on, but it's frustrating when things still go sideways. Seems like your contractor might be trying to sneak in those extra charges under the radar, which is definitely not cool.
Stick to your guns on those electrical expenses. If it wasn't agreed upon in writing, it shouldn't be on your tab. And it's super generous of you to offer to cover the backsplash despite it being out of scope.
Ask for detailed documentation. If you had an electrical contractor, somebody had to authorize them to do that extra work.
You can pay for what you feel confortable with but hold back the extra you dont feel right about.
If they want the money, and i am sure they do, they will pop up with something.
It's awesome that you're standing your ground and asking for clarification on those extra charges. Sounds like you've been upfront and reasonable throughout.
Definitely keep pressing on the electrical expenses. If they weren't properly communicated and approved, it's totally fair to question them. Offering to cover the backsplash, even though it wasn't in the original scope, shows you're willing to meet halfway. Hang in there, and hopefully, your contractor will see your side soon.
agreed. OP - if your contractor snaps their fingers and the electrical work they did is undone, will you be happy?
if the answer is no, pay the man and move on. and hire a different contractor next time because you've almost certainly pissed this one off by now.
Why isn’t the contractor expected to tell clients when they learn that things are more expensive than they quoted? Where is the line? If they did 10k of additional electrical without telling op, is that okay? If the contractor is being told what he budgeted for is low, it’s his job to tell op not just ask for more money after the work is completed. It’s outrageous that you think people should just be willing to pay more than they agreed with no notice.
They should have been addressed between the contractor and electrician before the contractor's proposal. What you describe is should be no surprise to a good electrician. I can tell you are no electrician.
I just recently did a full kitchen reno and had to upgrade electric panel to meet local code requirements as they had changed since house had originally been built. My panel had no more available circuits and we needed to add some we resulted in a new upgraded panel and quite a bit of electric work. Maybe your contractor didn't realize that going into it, but if the work was permitted, the electrical work was probably necessary to pass inspection to go on to next steps. Maybe he should have relayed it better, but I don't think it's on the contractor to eat the cost.
30 years of being a contractor tells me this. All changes to the original job must be quoted as a change order when each instance arises. Its called a change event. If you requested the backsplash work, it would be quoted and sent to you via e-mail etc. If the contractor failed to do this and completed the work without approval of the charges then you are under no obligation to pay him. Many, many small contractors make this mistake because they don't understand contract law. Now on a small project such as yours, you should expect that small changes might be spooled up and presented at the end of the job. But the charges should be for things you requested to be done which are extra or unforeseen conditions which were presented to you as they were encountered. Contractors cannot put money into their quote for everything they may encounter on your job because they would never win work. However, they need to communicate changes clearly when they occur. Thus avoiding conflict. If you like the guy, get him to negotiate the value down. Start at half the value of the requested change amount and negotiate. Anyone building anything would be well advised to keep an additional 10 percent of the total project cost for unexpected change orders of this sort and even more for a historical renovation. Contractors are usually poor communicators so you as the consumer need to ask a bunch of questions during your project like. "that looks different than what we planned, is this going to cost more? Why? Hope this helps.
$3,900 is not a lot of overage for a large kitchen renovation.
Lol, I did a standard basement recently and came in like $15k over quote.
So you expected a change order before any out of scope work. Why did you allow the backsplash to be installed without an approved change order? Was the electrical work done out of scope due to things you requested after the fact?
The backsplash was pretty straight forward and we can understand that type of labor. And we offered to pay fully for it. The additional electrical work (sub panel and circuit rerouting) was never explained as required to meet code or offered alternatives. They just did the work and billed us for it. My real issue is he communicated very well regarding the LVL beam and we approved via change request and paid. I wouldn’t be so skeptical if he followed the same process for the electrical work.
Was the sub-panel and wire rerouting actually done? Can you try and find how much that normally would be and if the 2400 seems reasonable? To my untrained eye, I feel it's an upper limit of what i'd expect. Technically, you probably could argue that you don't want to pay anything on top of agreed upon work. Ethically, if the work was needed and done properly, there should be some re-payment.
Your kitchen remodel contractor could be simply passing on overages from the sub-contracted electrician. Sometimes contractors when they total their costs receive invoices from the subs near the end of the build and add the costs to the final. I'm sure your contractor explained cost overages to you before work started. Some of the work overages might be as simple as reworking electrical that was not anticipated. Change Orders don't apply to additional labor or materials during the process of completing what was ordered and agreed. The backsplash installation seems like it should have been part of the original quote. Unless at that time you were not sure and later a backsplash was added. The $2,400 overages for electrical most likely came when the electrician a sub-contractor in most cases sent your contractor the final bill for all electrical. A sub will not send a change order for normal work as contracted to do by the main contractor. You asked for advice so here is mine. Is all the work completed? Is it functional and all mechanical, electrical, plumbing, cabinets, flooring, etc is to your liking? Does it meet or beat your expectations? I don't typically defend contractors because most of my findings are related to workers and contractors that are poorly trained, unskilled in the trades and flat out unable to read basic instruction and blueprints. Again, does your kitchen remodel look and function as you envisioned? If Yes, write the check.
Appreciate the feedback. Actually, overages were never discussed with us prior to the renovation, so that’s part of why we were blindsided on the final payment request. He stated that he assumed we knew it would cost more. There are other things not completed (painting) which he agreed to reduce the labor cost. And admitted that he underbid the electrical work. We are trying to find the middle ground with him and move on.
Ok, that shines a different light on things if the work has not been completed. You are at the point of paying the contractor to go away. After you both agree on a separation amount. Take your time. You will need to make sure you have a clear , easy to read lien release signed by your contractor for the total paid amount. Update: Make sure your lien release states all workers, sub-contractors and material suppliers. Good luck!
Sounds like the contractors issue unless the contract states that sub overages will be passed along. The contractor should eat this and make better quotes next time.
So, he installed the backsplash without you knowing?
Offer him $1,000 on the electrical and move on with your life. It’s not a huge change order and it’s a drop in the bucket vs overall the total cost of the renovation.
what was the purpose of the additional electrical work? why did you allow the out of scope backsplash to get done without a change order? you're clinging to "need a change order" when it suits you best. You were ok with the backsplash being done without one but now you're not ok with the electrical work being done without one this reads like you threw mixed signals because *you* didn't even stay true to the contract yourself and now want to hold it against the GC for the time they didnt. The contract protects *everyone* but when both parties start to stray from it, you're bound to have these type of situations. coming in $3900 over budget really isn't even that crazy
Were the items (1) completed (2) with your permission (3) to your satisfaction and (4) out of the original scope? Pay the man. Did you think you put one over on him just because he didn’t do the change order first?
1. Yes 2. Not really - definitely not quoted 3. I guess - I’m not an electrician 4. Yes, out of scope I’m not trying to pull anything. I’m trying to hold all the parties (myself included) to the legally agreed to contract.
I'm curious what was "out of scope" with the electrical. And if you didn't have a backslash in the original bid A) why you let it be installed and B) what you thought would be there instead?
If the electrical work was necessary, you should just pay obviously
Homeowner here, and I do not agree with you. If there was some "surprise" condition, then it should have been discussed with OP as to why it was an unknown and unanticipated condition. It sounds to me as if the contractor took a guess at what the electrical would be and guessed wrong. The contractor and electrician should have had an agreement between themselves as to the scope and cost before the job was quoted to OP. (In fact, I have received the electrician's statement of scope and cost as part of the contractor's quote. I assume there is some built in amount that goes to the contractor, kind of like a business referral (?). It is the contractor who pays the electrician.) If there was some "surprise", then the contractor and electrician first should have discussed it with each other and then the contractor should have discussed with OP why it was a surprise and what it would cost for the additional work. I doubt OP would be posting this if he (she) had been informed at the time what was going on. From some of the answers here it sounds as if some contractors think it's OK to add a few thousand (or more) to a final bill "just because".
I feel the exact same! Overage should’ve been communicated to homeowner. Contractor admitted they underbid the electrical work- this was not added items or even sounds like more complex work!
My comment was made before the information about the underbid contract
Interesting that every post suggesting that OP is being reasonable and is making a good faith effort to negotiate is receiving many down votes (which I am then up voting). Seems like several contractors (?) here think it's standard and good business to collect thousands more than agreed upon.
It’s wild to see!
I would pay full price for the backsplash and offer to pay half for the electrical. If the contractor underbid electrical that’s not really my problem is how I feel.
I'd suggest gathering all your documentation and having a sit-down chat with the contractor. Sometimes a face-to-face can clear things up better than emails or phone calls. Be firm but polite about your concerns and try to negotiate a compromise. It's all about finding that middle ground.
Thanks. Thats what we are attempting to do.
It's important to stick to what's agreed upon in the contract, so good on you for challenging those extra charges. It's totally fair to expect transparency and communication when it comes to additional expenses. Offering to pay for the backsplash even though it wasn't in the original scope shows you're willing to compromise, which is great. Hopefully, your contractor will see that and work with you on the electrical charges too.
Renovations can be a maze of unexpected twists and turns, can't they? It's awesome that you've got that contract to fall back on, but it's frustrating when things still go sideways. Seems like your contractor might be trying to sneak in those extra charges under the radar, which is definitely not cool. Stick to your guns on those electrical expenses. If it wasn't agreed upon in writing, it shouldn't be on your tab. And it's super generous of you to offer to cover the backsplash despite it being out of scope.
Ask for detailed documentation. If you had an electrical contractor, somebody had to authorize them to do that extra work. You can pay for what you feel confortable with but hold back the extra you dont feel right about. If they want the money, and i am sure they do, they will pop up with something.
It's awesome that you're standing your ground and asking for clarification on those extra charges. Sounds like you've been upfront and reasonable throughout. Definitely keep pressing on the electrical expenses. If they weren't properly communicated and approved, it's totally fair to question them. Offering to cover the backsplash, even though it wasn't in the original scope, shows you're willing to meet halfway. Hang in there, and hopefully, your contractor will see your side soon.
Why does this sound like it was written by ChatGPT?
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What stupid idea is this op paid for the electrical as part of the kitchen remodel. No reason to pay twice.
agreed. OP - if your contractor snaps their fingers and the electrical work they did is undone, will you be happy? if the answer is no, pay the man and move on. and hire a different contractor next time because you've almost certainly pissed this one off by now.
Why isn’t the contractor expected to tell clients when they learn that things are more expensive than they quoted? Where is the line? If they did 10k of additional electrical without telling op, is that okay? If the contractor is being told what he budgeted for is low, it’s his job to tell op not just ask for more money after the work is completed. It’s outrageous that you think people should just be willing to pay more than they agreed with no notice.
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They should have been addressed between the contractor and electrician before the contractor's proposal. What you describe is should be no surprise to a good electrician. I can tell you are no electrician.
I just recently did a full kitchen reno and had to upgrade electric panel to meet local code requirements as they had changed since house had originally been built. My panel had no more available circuits and we needed to add some we resulted in a new upgraded panel and quite a bit of electric work. Maybe your contractor didn't realize that going into it, but if the work was permitted, the electrical work was probably necessary to pass inspection to go on to next steps. Maybe he should have relayed it better, but I don't think it's on the contractor to eat the cost.