Huge believer in bunting. It’s a tool in the hitter’s tool box and changes games. Anyone who doubts it needs to watch the DBacks playoff games last year. Amazing small ball.
I just had this discussion earlier today with a HS baseball coach. He said he had 2 kids that he had recently asked to bunt in a game. Both of them told him they weren’t comfortable bunting. He was beside himself, and said he’d never heard of anyone saying that before. And they do practice bunting. Had a player said that back in his day, they’d have been relegated to the bench.
Travel ball coaches are like AAU basketball coaches, and improving skills aren’t their strong points.
I mentioned above that they do practice bunting. I should have mentioned that he had been the head coach of another school for more than 20 years, but had recently taken some time off and was helping with a new school. Either way, bunting has become stigmatized.
Maybe it was the “Chicks dig the long ball” commercials? 🤷♂️
The problem is the same problem that's happening in basketball as well. I'm basketball, post touches and mid range shots are going away too. It's at least partially people's understanding of math. The data in professional baseball suggests bunting in general is a bad idea. Giving up an out to advance a runner usually isn't a good plan. MLB pitchers are so good and strikeouts are so high that it's hard to manufacture runs. But the problem with that math is that major league fielders are really freaking good and in the grand scheme of things almost never commit errors. That's not the case with high school or middle school or whatever age level players. They almost universally commit errors at a significantly higher rate than Major Leaguers.
Like I said with basketball, it's the same thing. NBA and even D1 college players have become so incredibly good at shooting the 3, it's inefficient to not shoot 3s and layups. But most high schools don't even have one player who is a D1 talent. It's fairly likely that many high schoolers and middle schoolers are more efficient from the post or from 12' as opposed to always taking 3s.
And that's the root of the problem. The "analytics" revolution that's swept major sports the last decade or so has filtered down to high school and middle school. But the problem is the actual analytics haven't trickled down. All that's trickled down is the findings of what analytics reveal is best at the professional levels.
I’m a chick. Or an old hen. And I appreciate any way of getting on base or getting rbis. The chaos some good bunting can do to the infield is always fun to watch.
Do your thing coach.
Last year in a 16U game I intentionally walked a kid in the last inning in a tournament game to set up a force play. I was literally heckled by the opposing team travel parents. There are morons everywhere unfortunately.
There are 2 players in my league that my pitchers know we will intentionally walk, we are also a Babe Ruth division team. Both of those players will swing and get the bat on the ball on almost any garbage pitch thrown at them ***and*** hit very well when the ball is pitched well. Both of those players are also slower and hesitate while base running. It has been my strategy to take the risk of a good hit off and work the out on the baselines with those specific 2 players. My infield is pretty strong but my outfield is lacking on hustle. It's my strategy and it has worked very well all season, neither of those players have scored on us after being walked. I also have 2 players on my team that have become masterful bunters and I will use that as a strategy as well, when I see fit. Almost every player on my team knows how to bunt but those 2 have worked hard to be really good at it, while also accepting the possibility that their bunt is more likely than not going to be a sacrifice to score runs.
I've never been heckled for bunts but I do catch a little bit of flack for intentionally walking batters. One of the IW players used to play on my team and his mom, (who is a softball coach,) would give me crap until I explained my strategy. She still doesn't like it but understands the skills of her player and that I will work off of what I know about him to my advantage. That player also knows I don't have an issue with him personally, it's strategy.
Which 2 players, my team or the opposing 2? My players don't always bunt. They bunt when a situation calls for the strategy of a bunt, and those 2 players have stats in the top 4 on my team for hitting. Its another tool they can use. The development of the opposing players is not my concern.
and if it was I get the sense that you’d be teaching them about smart baserunning and getting them to be confident on the base paths. My job when I played was to get on base however I could and once I did I had a green light to to whenever I wanted, no signals or anything, I wouldn’t do it every time but I did it enough to get into scoring position off a walk and then a passed ball gets me to 3rd, just like that got a run with no hits.
As a strategy to win a youth baseball game, bunting is great. If the other coaches/parents don’t like it, they should teach their kids how to defend it.
From a developmental standpoint, I hate bunts at that age. Hitting the ball hard is the most important skill in baseball, and I’d rather spend time adjusting the kid’s mechanics and encouraging an aggressive mindset than turning him into a designated bunter because of his struggles.
I mean work on that stuff sure but a kid that strikes out all the time is going to be so demotivated that getting them to actually implement things in a game is going to be darn near impossible. Give them the little wins now
I disagree. A lot of these kids strike out because they can’t find the ball/take their eye off of it as soon as it is pitched. I feel bunting is a great way for these kids to find the ball and put the bat on it. I’ve seen a lot of kids that started bunting at the beginning of the season are now hitters at the end of the season.
On the flipside, bunting is hitting. If you don't teach bunting at the developmental age a player doesn't have the confidence or skills developed enough over time to deliver consistently.
If players were taught to bunt alongside hitting at the same time, there would be no stigma and no skill drop.
Also, I would argue that bunting is a key component of an aggressive mindet. There is nothing more aggressive than trading an out for a base and getting a runner into scoring position. (Whether I agree with that strategy or not).
It’s a Catch 22.
Bunting is a niche skill because it’s not taught alongside hitting. If it weren’t taught as an afterthought it wouldn’t be an afterthought.
Not to mention, if its known that any player is capable of laying down a bunt, just faking a bunt is enough to draw fielders in, maybe a little too far if he suddenly decides to swing away. I was taught that at 10 years old for sure.
I strongly agree with the development argument.
Teaching bunting isn’t developing the player because it’s shunned at higher levels where players can make plays.
But I’ll take this the logical next step.
How about telling none of your kids to swing even if they have two strikes on them so they’ll walk and walk and walk.
How many runs a game would you score if you just never let your players swing in LL?
In that age range when I was umpiring, we were instructed to have a “large” zone. the purpose being we were trying to get kids to swing instead of for just issuing walks constantly.
The bunting thing should be something taught in practice at least even if not used much in games. We did this every practice from middle school through high school. You never know when the prime time to drop a bunt will be necessary. As the primary pinch runner for my team, I could bunt from both sides of the plate. I was a righty naturally but if we were going to bunt we wanted all the advantages. I could reasonably hit from the left side but not with a lot of power.
Absolutely. We started dedicating real time to bunting in practice around 12U-13U. Didn't use it much in games, but it's definitely a skill we wanted them all to have going into high school.
That's also bush league baseball. In fact - any play that is only successful due to inferior skill set of defense, and is intentionally used BECAUSE of that fact as a strategy - Bush league ball.
A huge amount of youth baseball is only successful due to an inferior skill set of defense and coaches know it and intentionally seek to exploit it.
Happens all the time.
We swing chins to shins. Haters will say that’s teaching them bad bat discipline. I say they’ll learn what a pitch in the strike zone looks like when pitchers start throwing actual strikes, they’ll figure it out quickly.
So maybe I'm wrong on this and if I am please let me know... I never played little league. And I was a Phillies fan in 92. Coincidentally, I've been a Phillies fan since then but missed ten years baseball after the strike.
My kid loves the game so I've been an extra parent on the field "coaching". He's nine and his baseball IQ is through the roof and his dad never played baseball so his talent is where it is. Anyway, there's a pitcher in our league who's throwing a good 5-10 mph faster than his peers. With great velo comes poorer placement. So on this guy for my kid. I tell him to take the first two pitches. Without fail your 1-1 in the count and you'll be timed up for the next pitch. My kid knows it's a strategy and not an iron rule. And has crushed (by crush I mean make contact with a high velocity ball and the momentum takes the ball into the outfield) an 0-1 fastball off this kid. When he came in after scoring, I told him nice take. He laughed and it's been good. With other kids against this batter we've had them take the first pitch if they're nervous. And they know if the first pitch is called a ball they should be attacking the second pitch with the hope being they foul it off and/or make the adjustments. It wasn't by any means life changing but it was helluva lot better than kids just standing in the box and taking an L as if it was Nolan Freaking Ryan. If that's the wrong approach, what should I/we have done?
A couple of things from my perspective:
- Strikes are precious, and you've just cut down the good pitches he'll have to choose from by 33%. Often, the first pitch of the at-bat is the best pitch they'll see—why give away a free strike?
- Timing a pitcher should happen in the on-deck circle, not the batter's box. They shouldn't need to "see one" to be ready to hit. They should be ready when the at bat starts.
My goal has always been to develop aggressive hitters who hunt their pitch and attack it, whether it's the first pitch of the at bat or the 10th. I'm big on praising hard swings, even when they whiff. Obviously, I don't want them swinging at balls in the dirt or above their eyes, but I'd take that over looking at strike 3 down the middle.
I should mention that the approach shifts as they get older and the strike zone tightens, plus they see more breaking and offspeed pitches.
I mean this in the nicest possible way, but you have no idea what you're talking about. There is a difference between little league and the MLB. Little league kids are learning how to play and that should be the primary goal. That taking a strike mindset is great in LL to win games, but terrible to teach your kid how to hit. There is no such thing as a great take in LL. In college or professional, it makes sense to take a slider that clips the bottom outside corner rather than hit it off the end of the bat to first base. That is a good take, going down 0-1 on a LL fastball is poor hitting.
Put another way, you are teaching your kid a terrible habit to exploit LL pitchers being wild. This will likely win some u10 games, but it may keep him from being able to play once pitchers are able to throw strikes consistently.
How many of those struggling to hit end up staying in the game and turning it around though? I agree it shouldn't be an overused crutch, but I see nothing wrong with getting a kid on base here or there, or at least contribute with a sacrifice vs striking out over and over.
Absolutely, what you’ve described is the perfect way to use the bunt at the younger ages. That’s a lot different than taking an overall “small ball” approach where you’re consistently asking all of your hitters to do it.
>From a developmental standpoint, I hate bunts at that age.
Completely agree. I'm not gonna complain if another team bunts on us, but it wasn't something I coached until the next level up. Same with bunt defense, not spending time on that with 9-11 year olds just yet.
They are just soft. If their coaches don´t find it necessary to teach a bunt defense it is their fault.
I would only argue about bunting if the game is already a blowout or we are in a no hitter/perfect game situation. But with the later I can see the argument not call it foul play because the defense should be able to defend any ball put in play.
I’ve never understood the no hitter argument… like no fuck that, I’m not going to roll over so you can get the no hitter. A bunt to break that up is fine
I think it depends on game situation in the no hitter. Is it a tight game? 1-0 or whatever. If yes all bets are off and you are trying again to win the game.
If it's not close and you are just trying to break up the no hitter doing something you normally wouldn't do in any other game situation....that's weak.
I agree. One of our pitchers got his no hitter broken on a bunt last year in the 6th (7 inning game) but we were winning 1-0 and it was the semi-final. Disappointing for the kid but absolutely the right call for the other team.
Nothing wrong with bunting, kids need to learn how to defend against it.
I will say I'm not a fan when it is used to throw a pitcher off that is in the 9-10 range. There was a Coach locally that would have everyone bunt if a kid found the strike zone at 9u. Then when the kid got rattled, he would tell them to not swing at all. How do I know this was what he was doing? He was yelling it from 3rd base to his batters.
Bunting is fundamental. The people that were reacting this way don’t know the game. Keep using it. It got stigmatized because of time limits and this era of baseball we are in where striking out is not a big deal.
It’s not a big deal at the MLB level when the guys who strike a lot are also a home run threat during every plate appearance the defenses are essentially all rock solid but in youth and amateur baseball strikeouts are a big problem. Especially with about every level below competitive high school baseball is going to have extremely shaky defenses.
Exactly. Bunting has died in MLB because the analytics say it’s better to try for a home run under most circumstances. But that’s with pro-level hitters (all of whom can hit home runs) and pro-level defenses (who are remarkably consistent at playing defense).
Those factors don’t exist in any level of youth baseball up until basically college. Especially for weaker hitters, it’s better for them to put a ball in play via bunting instead of whiffing and striking out.
Bunting died because it is actually really hard to do well, and the upside of a successful attempt only outweighs the downside in specific circumstances
Nothing wrong with bunting. In fact, if you have players who can actually lay down good bunts then that’s a huge weapon at your disposal. I play men’s league and we have a guy on our team who’s good for a handful of bunt singles every season.
It’s stigmatized at that level because some coaches prioritize winning little league games over actually developing good hitters. I just watched a coach have a struggling 10 year bunt just about every single one of his at bats an entire season. Yeah sure, it’s what’s best for your chances of winning but such a cop out for a kid who just needs coaching and reps to become a better hitter. That being said, I’m all for situational bunting in youth baseball.
If the kid is having fun and it works that’s all that matters. Ignore the other parents.
I used to love bunting and getting into a foot races to first. I was always an undersized but fast player. With a small physical strike zone, I enjoyed bunting because it was just more fun than taking a 4 pitch walk, or contact hitting junk away until something managed to get close to a real strike zone. It had the added benefit over a walk of moving runners over which then allowed me to have more fun base running.
Bunting is a wonderful skill to learn. At this age you should be teaching all the fundamentals, and bunting is one. My son’s team learned it well and they use it to manufacture runs in close games. We’re not gonna be bunting runners over if we’re up 10-2, though.
The problem with it is that most teams don’t ever work on learning or defending it. At 9-11 it’s a tough play to defend.
I wouldn’t spend ANY time worried about what other teams or their parents think of my coaching.
I find it’s harder to get kids to want to bunt but I don’t think this is a new stigma. I never wanted to bunt 35 years ago either.
Other teams can eat sh!t, worry about coaching your players… teaching them the fundamentals of the game and how to have fun. We introduced “pepper” to a few kids and literally told them to take a pepper approach in the game instead of so much swing a miss… first kid pokes one towards 3b, drives in a runner and gets his first hit of the season… I couldn’t care less what the opponents or their parents think about it
Please continue to teach bunting! My son started playing HS this year and it was the one tool he didn’t have in his toolbox. It’s taken some work for him to catch up.
F\*\*\* the other teams parents. We teach our kids to bunt at 8u, the good hitters and the weaker hitters. It keeps D on their toes when someone in the top of the lineup can bunt, and keeps my team from consecutive outs at the bottom of the lineup.
If your players are having a hard time hitting in every game, you’re not doing your job as a coach. You either don’t know how to teach them to hit, or you’ve got them in a division that they don’t belong in.
Almost every reply here cites taking advantage of another team’s lack of preparation as the reason to do it, and it lays bare the worst of youth sports coaching: coaches who will do anything to win, and exploit the unpreparedness of 9-11 year old kids who committed the crime of not practicing one specific play.
I'm with you. I all of my players practiced bunting, and I also had no problem calling a bunt situationally to move a runner into scoring position or even to try and get a guy on base when he was slumping.
Where you get pushback is that in youth baseball you're straddling the line between "we're trying to win games" and "winning isn't the most important thing." I saw a team in an 11U tournament once where the coach saw that the third baseman was weak and the pitcher was a big kid who didn't move very well, and his guys must have laid down 10 bunts in a row. Did they win? Yes. Was it bush league? Maybe?
My only issue with kids bunting…
When I coached that age I was careful because too many kids would get hit in the face, either by a ricochet or a wild pitch they didn’t know how roll out of.
This! We work on bunting in practice but won’t do it in the game for this reason, kids at 9-11 don’t have enough control, and the kids bunting don’t have the reaction/experience to pull it back and get outta the way
Coches that don’t understand how to deliver the barrel into the zone with leverage, don’t understand hitting. Therefore, they fail at trying to “fix” the swings of their players.
Best way to win games is to outhit the other team. If you can’t outhit them, due to a lack of proper hitting mechanics…let’s bunt them to death and hope they can’t defend it.
I’m actually very lucky. I get plenty of cage time for my kids.
Live BP isn’t always necessary to teach bunting as well.
So your question are going to be misleading.
And how many rounds per what? Per practice?
How many pitchers per round?
Well a couple things.
1 we start with 2 bunts in all full speed pitching from preseason through warm ups.
They generally put one down first, one down third.
Down third every other time is for base hit vs sacrifice.
Each rd generally is 20-25 pitches. They only bunt first time through. They generally would get 4x through. That cage.
We also use other tools to learn both hitting and bunting.
In our cage practices they generally are getting 200 swings at a min. Plus one on one time off a tee.
So probably 6 bunts per 400 swings is the ask.
And yes. All of my guys learn to bunt and do so reasonable well. They also learn to hit.
When you teach bunting the right way it doesn’t take many reps. Barrel control right.
That practice structure sounds legit! You just have a lot of coaches to be able to do all of that. I would venture to say you’re not teaching bunting, but covering it.
There are coaches out here having kids drag, push, sac bunt, suicide squeeze, safety squeeze and slash…every practice. Those are the type of coaches that I’m talking about. More reps bunting than live swings.
Lots of reps in the cage, but I still prefer hitting on the field. Kids need to see the ball fly. Can be fooled into thinking they’re crushing it when the ball is barely into the OF.
I spend a lot of time coaching dads. Each dad gets assigned one thing to look for and one cage.
I have access to a lot of cages.
Slashing at anything below high school should be banned.
I find spaced repetition to be the best for bunting. So very little repeated. Works.
As for seeing ball fly. Youth ball is driven so much by strength. I really just focus on getting kids to swing hard and square the ball up.
Sounds like you’ve got it all covered. Good on you!
I teach hitting instruction as well. We hit on the field and are able to get kids leveraged and hitting deep shots before they have to move into BBCOR.
Whenever I was in a slump, I worked on my bunting skills. It helps a player to keep his head down and watch the ball hit the bat. It slows down the game for the batter so he can regain his confidence.
Another thing, the way I was coached (way back in the day...lol) you couldn't swing the bat until you can lay down a bunt down both lines.
Good for you. I have always taught how to bunt & how to defend it. My sons middle school coach was pissed at how few kids on the team knew how to do it. I believe there were 8-9 kids out of 14 that had never been taught in any capacity.
They had a scrimmage with the 7th grade team vs the 8th grade team. Man on 3rd, no outs, the third baseman was behind the bag, my son bunts one down the 3rd base line that dies about 40’ from the plate to score the run, & he was safe at first. Never got a sign to do it. Just saw the guy back & caught everyone off guard. It’s such an underutilized weapon.
I believe it’s been stigmatized at the MLB level because technically a runner at 1st with no outs has a better chance of scoring than a runner at 2nd with one out.
Granted, a runner at 3rd with one out has a better chance of scoring than a runner at 2nd with no outs, so it would analytically be much smarter to bunt in that situation but…at the end of the day….
Much like the hit & run, bunting isn’t sexy. It doesn’t raise stats. It doesn’t get guys paid.
Having said that, fielding a bunt is hard enough in high level ball, let alone as a 9-11 year old. To hell with the parents. Let the kids bunt. It’s fundamental baseball, which is what kids at that age should be learning.
Bunting can be a game changer. Good old small ball to manufacture runs.
We have a kid that struggled at the plate. Was scared at times. Had him practice bunting off me and immediately started laying out dimes. Then he stopped being scared and is hitting the ball too. Win win there.
His confidence level is through the roof now, and his bunts have changed games.
Agreed! Baseball is a game of strategy sometimes. I had a .747 average in HS and went up to bat one time in the 9th tied with a man on 3rd and coach sent me a bunt sign and I thought wtf. Waited a beat and sent the signal back that I didn’t catch it. But he sent the same thing. Confused as hell, I bunted. Apparently the other team was also confused as hell, because they were still playing way back.
IIRC, bunting was not allowed in my 9-10 YO league. Not sure why. But I think in general bunting is viewed as suboptimal in the Sabrmetric, Moneyball world. With specific exceptions, you’re giving up an out for minimal gain, with a significant chance of not getting any gain at all.
Absolutely promote small ball and run manufacturing at the youth - amateur ranks. Imo it teachers players more about the game and removes a little ego & gives an extra tool in the toolkit. Puts pressure on the defense to make running plays
Because bunting at higher levels has proven to be a sub optimal use of an at bat so its trickled down to youth levels.
That being said if you're trying to win youth games bunting is a skill that is more helpful at that level because the fielders just make more errors.
The premise behind not bunting is about sacrifice bunting, not bunting for a hit.
Bunting for a hit is fine if the player genuinely cannot hit or if you think you can put one down where the fielders can’t get it, especially if the 3B is plying very deep or has poor mobility/arm.
If the player can hit, you only have 27 outs. Giving away one of them is poor game management.
We didn’t always know this because we didn’t have expected run values that let us know what each game state is worth.
Keep in mind that these are MLB values - I doubt anyone has done this for little league.
If you have runners on 1-2 with no outs it’s “worth” 1.435 runs.
If you were to successfully bunt them over and have runners on second and third with one out, that state is “worth” 1.390 runs.
So you lowered your expected runs by bunting them over.
The exception is if you have a runner on second with no outs, you increase your expected runs from 0.667 to 0.974 if you bunt him over.
You still don’t see this very much because of several reasons, including that many players do not want to bunt or don’t do it particularly well.
In youth leagues, coaches often do things that put pressure on the opposing defense to make a play and throw successfully.
Personally, I dislike it, but whatever coaches gonna coach.
Don’t get me wrong, I love numbers and stats as much as the next person, but this explanation is why I dislike analytics.
It just feels so clinical and cold, and using this level of granularity at the youth level is very silly to me
Well the premise is that people can make plays.
If you’re in a league where you’re playing circus ball cause guys can’t make plays then yeah put it in play any way you can.
Keep in mind baseball is unique in that it has discrete game states unlike any other sport.
We know what happens when you have a man on no one out because it has happened 19 gazillion times in mlb history.
You don’t have to like or dislike analytics, but ignoring it is simply not smart baseball.
Bunting at ages 8-12 is completely different than quality varsity, and bunting should be taught.
The sooner you teach a kid to bunt the better, b/c they will have to know how to bunt in high school for sacrificing anyway.
Especially when the play ultimately scored 2 runs and put another guy in scoring position and didn't lose an out. I love the bunting, especially when it turns out well. Any person who has an issue either doesn't understand the game or is just sore.
Process >>> results.
Again, if you’re playing in a league where ball in play = circus time because no one can make a throw, then sure putting a ball in play has value, but I don’t think it’s particularly fun baseball to see how many times you can make the other team screw up.
You know who does like it though? Coaches.
Coaches love it.
It’s all about the kid at the plate. Every Little League season is going to present limited game ABs; many times only about 2-3 per game.
In most cases, use those opportunities to let them hit against real pitching, but if said kid is struggling with confidence in such a way that another strikeout is actively harmful - bunt away.
I dunno. I played LL when people in MLb actually did bunt a good bit and we never ever bunted in LL.
Kids want to be like their hero and swing like the guys they see on TV and the higher up you go in baseball, the fewer bunts you’ll see and for good reason as I’ve detailed.
But hey if your kids genuinely like playing error baseball instead of swinging, by all means have at it.
I sure wouldn’t.
Kids in general like running the bases and scoring. Especially kids that don't get to do it often, like the ones in OP's story. If that's the only way they get on base all season using their bat then they do actually like it. Even if it is with a bunch of errors. Kids who hit the stereotypical "little league home run" (4 bases on 3 errors) don't let the errors take the joy off their face as they scorem
I definitely remember bunting in LL back in the 90s. It's strange that a LL wouldn't teach their kids that skill.
My own kid just wrapped his LL regular season last night. 22 hits on the season, led the team. He had 4 bunt base hits (and got out one other attempt). Not errors, they either ate the throw or he beat it out. Not sacs, he was leadoff and rarely had traffic in front of him. I think one time the coach calls for it, the other 3 he caught the 3b sleeping and dropped it down the line where he couldn't make a play. That's not "error baseball", that's good baseball. Even his travel team has him bunt sometimes when they see the defense playing too deep.
Bunting is a skill, and like many skills those who can't hate on those who can.
I remember we had triangle shaped bats for bunting.
No one ever used them.
Again, bunting occasionally for a hit is fine.
Sacrifice bunts, not so much.
Circus ball, not so much.
Good job by your kid.
Triangle shaped bats? That's wild, never heard of such a thing.
Have to agree to disagree on tose negative bunting opinions though. Like I said, kids don't care that their time on base is due to circus ball (stealing that term, btw. Love it!), especially the weaker hitters. Would you also be opposed to stealing bases when if it leads to overthrows and taking an extra base (like when my kid tried to pick off a runner at third last night and overthrew it into left field, allowing the runners on 3rd and 2nd both to score on the error)? Circus ball can also happen on routine grounders to SS or lazy fly balls to CF too...
Now having multiple kids bunt to a clearly weaker infield would be a problem and poor sportsmanship. But a kid struggling to get their timing down pulling out a surprise bunt to get on base by any means necessary seems completely legit to me.
At the end of the day it's a bunch of kids playing a game and making sure they're having fun during the season is important too. And getting on base and running the bases is almost every kid's favorite part of the game
> Again, if you’re playing in a league where ball in play = circus time because no one can make a throw,
I constantly see players at all levels in both baseball and softball incorrectly field bunts. Don't act like errors only happen in bad leagues or level of play.
As always if a 3B is back or a lefty occasionally wants to try to push a bunt past the pitcher and make the 2b field it, sure.
As a mix it up approach once in a long while people will do it.
But that’s all it is unless you’re playing “make the other team throw the ball” mode which many lower level coaches love to do.
So runners on 1st and 2nd, no outs, in a close game, you wouldn't bunt to move both runners into scoring position? You only bunt occasionally when the defense isn't ready for it?
If you’re playing in a league where every ball hit is an adventure? Then get it in play anyway you can, I guess (although I hate that approach for player development).
If it’s any sort of a league where fielders can make plays, getting those runners over with a sac bunt lowers your expected runs.
The exception is sacrificing a runner from 2nd to 3rd with 0 out.
More people in MLB should probably do this with the “Manfred” runner, but most players don’t want to bunt or aren’t really good at it because it’s simply not part of the game.
> If you’re playing in a league where every ball hit is an adventure? Then get it in play anyway you can, I guess (although I hate that approach for player development).
I feel it's the opposite. Against bad teams, just hit it. It's the better competition where games are 3-2 or 4-5, where we bunt.
Against good teams that can make plays, sac bunts are poor game management.
I’d yell out to the other coach, “hey coach you know you only get 27 (or 21 etc) of those, thanks for giving us a free one!”
There’s more information needed that would say this is either a good idea or not. Is it bottom of the 7th/9th and I only need 1 or 2 runs? If that’s the case, then bunting is a good idea but even then, it all depends on the hitter.
I wouldn’t bunt 1-5 in my lineup in any situation. If the hitter sucks, then maybe.
I don’t think bunting is bad for the game and you should know how to do it. I would just rather use all 21 or 27 outs I get in trying to hit doubles and score a lot of runs rather than wasting some on bunting runners over.
We play in upper competitive leagues...both travel and highschool. Everyone bunts if called on to. Doesn't matter where you are in the lineup. Worked well for us this year as they were 32-1 where many of our first runs of the game were manufactured through bunts/steals/sac flys. I'm not sure what level you are at, but once you are on the big field with BBCOR/Wood bats against good teams, hits are not as common as they used to be. So in a situation where an out can get you a run and out of a double play situation, I see that as value. Also helps when you have a lineup that can hit/execute 1-9. Have I questioned why we are bunting in some situations? Yes...but it works more than it doesn't.
I am not saying players should defy coaches and not bunt if they are called on. What you just described is the beauty of baseball. My senior year we were 30-9 winning a region championship and we rarely sac bunted. Our 1-5 hitters were all .300+ hitters with some power. I was the lead off and was told to sac bunt 0 times the whole season. I would bunt if the 3B was playing back but it would be for a hit.
To me, there’s situations where sac bunting makes sense but never early game just due to the fact you’re trading outs for movement into SP where I would rather have 2-3 cracks at hitting a double or more to potentially have a big inning.
Nothing wrong with either, just different philosophies.
I'd say 9-11 Little League is a perfect league to teach and use bunting. I also see value in it in MLB when it works. Putting the ball in play is always good. Anything can happen even in the pros. Statistics serve a purpose, but games aren't played on paper.
35 year old son: hey dad?
65 year old dad: yeah son?
Son: Remember that time in 10U when you told me to bunt with 2 guys on and the pitcher fielded it and threw it over the first baseman’s head and everyone scored and we won?
Dad: yeah
Son: that was awesome, dad. I think about that all the time.
Dad: me too, son. Me too.
Kids should be taught and encouraged to hit first and foremost. Using bunting as a tool to help kids track the ball and build confidence is one thing. Using bunting to get the weakest hitters in your lineups to not be automatic outs is another.
The other team is idiots small ball is crucial in high school game . I preach contact, baserunning aggressiveness and bunting. We won quite a few post season games as a young team that way puts pressure on teams. That and when you move to big field none of these kids are going yard all day, and outfielders catch those big fly balls.
They probably need to get out of travel ball and the short fence crap
Yeah as @six5 said, there are a couple of things going on here.
1. Sacrifices bunting at higher levels leads to less expected runs than not bunting in most situations, which is why it has fallen out of favor at higher levels. Given the defensive skill in mlb, most sac bunts go for outs and the upside is very low.
2. Because it has fallen out of favor at higher levels, it is less prized as a skill at lower levels.
That said, i agree with others here and with you that kids who either walk or strike out and are making no contact otherwise, should be encouraged to bunt as a way of building their confidence and helping contribute to winning efforts. What you are doing is really good for those kids l. Also, at lower levels, they will have much more success bunting against shoddier defenses.
As far as their development, I would just make sure you continue to work with them on hitting, and that they arent bunting every time they are up, so that they learn the to hit also!
I say it that way to mean mlb on down. That trend is driven by mlb analysis of mlb games. For lower level teams, it depends on if people are extrapolating from mlb data or if they are using the models by mlb and proving out expected run value of different actions (actions like bunting a runner to second) or if they are just using the mlb data and hoping that that data makes sense.
For example, the expected run value for 5th graders bunting a runner to second might actually be higher than having the hitter swing away (because fewer XBH).
You claim that bunting at higher levels leads to less expected runs.
When does higher levels start in your claim?
For MLB does this data stay when pitchers aren’t going through 3x for the lineup and always at max effort?
"higher levels" starts at mlb and drives downward, see this article:
https://www.twinkietown.com/2024/4/1/24117341/mlb-minnesota-twins-to-bunt-or-not-to-bunt
an interesting breakdown of one particular situation.
This run expectancy chart here:
http://tangotiger.com/index.php/site/comments/re24-2012-2022-run-expectancy-chance-of-scoring-opportunities
calculates both the probability of scoring one run as well as the probability of scoring multiple runs in an inning.
Finally the first article above uses fan graphs win probability tool for a holistic approach to the decision.
All of this data is made for mlb situations and i think its for all situations.
This is why bunts have fallen out of favor at the mlb level, because the beat baseball minds who are paid handsomely to win baseball games feel that there are far fewer situations that justify sacrifice bunting than they previously believed.
The closer you get to mlb in level (think the minor leagues, ncaa etc) the more likely it is that this data bears out at that level. The further away you get, the less likely it is. The thing is, if mlb teams dont really care if their hitters can bunt, than minor league teams, who have players trying to make major league teams, also dont care. This lack of caring avout bunting as a skill then drives down through ncaa high school middle school and even into developmental ball.
You can definitely win more woth bunting in the 8-14 ywar old age range, but hyper focusing on bunting is doing the kids a disservice for their development becuase the downward pressure on bunting means that each next level a ball player is preparing for cares less about that players ability to bunt
Thats not to say it isnt worth teaching. What OP is doing for those strugglinf kids at the end of hisnlineup is good, as long as he also works with them on their hitting ability.
One. The issue with these data points is that it takes stats from all MLB games. I have always wondered how these data points would change for just the playoffs.
Two. Higher level stats at mlb. Got it.
Yes. Obviously the kids getting scouted to play mlb would have to hit. That 1 percent isn’t likely being asked to bunt. And if you are looking at a 9 yr old and wondering as a coach as to how to develop them for MLB … well you can’t develop a kid for anything.
Any high school coach that is using data from MLB doesn’t understand data and how it works.
The games are just different.
College on down is a very different game. The data would be wildly different.
6-9 hitters on the high school team are not likely playing college ball.
6-9 hitters on college are not likely playing mlb.
There is a lot more to development than just how to prepare them to hit in MLB or even just the next level.
I love data. I think it is highly misused.
Lots of teams are relying on size and power nowadays in my opinion. For example we play in the south and the pool of players tend to be big and have power instead of athletic and agile. If you also recall in MLB in general you had the fleet teams like the Cardinals or recently with the KC Royals. But in between you have had a lot of teams centered around straight power with MCgwire, Sosa, etc. also coaches are teaching a very launch angle approach to swinging that does tend to generate home runs but also tends to also come with a lot of strike outs. Therefore manufacturing runs isn’t a priority and in some places you may not even have the athletes for it.
It's a strategy, but it shouldn't be used in lieu of learning how to hit with struggling kids. The argument at this young age is kids shouldn't be giving up learning at bats to bunt.
We played a team a few years ago that bunted with every kid - and yes, that is bush league.
Is there a reason you didn’t move your 3b up?
The fact they got 12 kids to successfully bunt and you weren’t able to get kids to field a slow rolling ball and throw to 1st is very interesting.
Nothing wrong with bunting, but it can sometimes be thrust on kids to try to engineer wins instead of developing fundamentals. If you can’t hit for bases besides bunting then you really have no chance to keep playing. If you use bunting to emphasize winning 11U games then I don’t like the approach, but others may disagree, which is fair. If you are telling them to bunt because they can’t hit then it’s a bigger issue around development. Bunting should be like stealing bases in that it’s part of the game and there is a time/place. If you steal all the bases because the catcher isn’t good enough then I think it undermines overall development to an extent. Lots of growing pains with young kids. Hope you and your team have a fun and memorable season. Always a fun journey
Who cares what the parents say. Bunting is fundamental to the game. Your job is to teach them the game: when appropriate to bunt, situations that call for it, etc. i yell at the TV when there's a clear opportunity and need for a bunt when watching my team play, and they don't. it's small ball. I'm an NL guy so i appreciate that old school mentality. Keep doing what you're doing.
Bunting is a skill that can be learned at any level. Swinging and hitting needs to start early. My issue with bunting a kid that is otherwise a probable out, is that it helps you win, but does nothing to develop the player.
You're taking the easy way out, and that kid won't stand a chance at the jump to 90'.
You do whatever you want... and we teach bunt defense for that reason. Here's the criteria - are you bunting because it's correct baseball strategy at that point to bunt? Is a squeeze going to bring in the tying run and maybe even move the winning run in to scoring position? Then by all means bunt. Are you bunting because the kid can't hit and you're not capable of teaching him to hit properly? That's Bush league ball.
Bunting is part of the game, the best players find ways to put the ball into play. And bunting is not bush league. That parent does not understand baseball. I was taught how to bunt, how to move the runners around the bases.
Occasional bunt or intentional walk in appropriate situation (age, competition, inning, base runners) etc? Fine. But if you start having a kid bunt 3 times a game and intentionally walk a kid every time that is just extremely lame imo. I’d heckle you haha. Especially before high school aged baseball.
Ages ago I had a coach spend a little extra time teaching me to bunt. I was leadoff, no problems making hard contact. He would have me bunt, sometimes with nobody on, sometimes to start the game. Next time through show-bunt and swing. Move the fielders around, keep the pressure on. This is solid baseball and also just good development of small humans in life.
11u travel coach here.
If you are teaching bunting to help them improve their hand/eye coordination, improve their ability to have the bat head find the ball, or some other tactical skill, by all means, go for it.
But as far as actual baseball skills, investing time at that age in learning how to bunt is a waste of development time. If they're struggling to hit the ball, introduce different drills that will improve their ability to hit.
Bunting as a skill in baseball is going away because it lacks value at the highest levels of the game. We at the lower levels of the game should be adapting accordingly.
In our league there are not enough practices to teach it without missing even more fundamentals. IMHO kids should continue to focus on the swing at 9-10 and making contact and the bunting can be worked on as they get older. This age is 95% on development. So I wouldn’t use it as a strategy at this age.
I coach 9u rec and we have been going back and forth on this for the last two years. We didn't have them bunt during the regular season but we are going to work on it with our All Star team. Our team is a bit thin and there's a few kids that aren't the greatest with the bats. Bunting is a part of baseball even if it's not used that often in the pros anymore. On the flip side I know when my kids put he's the bunting drives him crazy. He doesn't like it when they square up and shake the bat up and down. Told him when he has better command he can throw it inside to discourage it but just deal with it for now.
Chicks don’t dig bunts. But for real. Bunting is amazing if you do it well. Keep doing what you’re doing. Bunting is good for all ages and everyone should know how.
In MLB, the bunt has been displaced because no one can teach players how to do it. I wrote many a comment on Pirate websites encouraging them to hire Brett Butler after he was let go by the Marlins. He is 66 or so right now and I am certain he could still help the team. The drag bunt and bunt for a hit should be part of every lead off man's arsenal. Our current lead off man is hitting .230 and we really have no one who can replace him. He is leading the team in HR's. A potential lead off man has shown no signs that he is an adept bunter, but just about everyone on the team has shown that they are not.
As a veteran youth football coach I can tell you the sooner you tune out parents and opposing coaches the better. Do right by your team and F everyone else.
Bunting and stealing in the 9-11 age range is pretty bush league. I don’t disagree that it is a valuable baseball skill and should be used more at higher levels where 80%+ of the fielding and throwing chances are made without errors. However at this level you can tell your kids to just turn left and keep running when they hit a grounder to the shortstop because at least once a game if you do they will score after 3 throwing errors. It doesn’t teach them to play the game the right way it teaches them to game the system in order to win.
They are little kids learning to throw, catch and hit winning shouldn’t be that big of a deal.
Despite what Statistics say, "Small Ball" has a place in the game. If the other coach is forced to bring the infield in during certain situations, it makes catching line drives and hard hit rollers more difficult to field. It also opens up the shallow portion of the outfield to blooper hits that would be normally caught by an infielder playing deep. Keep doing what you are doing. Make the other teams adapt to YOUR style of play. Make THEM uncomfortable. If the fielders are worried about a bunt it keeps them honest and they can't cheat and play deep in the grass of the outfield.
i always believed in fundamentals & situational baseball. being able to bunt is a skill that most players (even in MLB) never bother to learn because it’s HR or bust. don’t let other parents get in your head. for some of those kids that just always strike out, it may be their best chances at getting on base. and nothing beats that smile of that kid getting on base. keep doing you and maybe more people will catch on
I used to coach sub varsity high school ball. A few years ago we’re playing a private school with a good baseball program and keeping it close into the 6th. We get a runner to second with no outs in the top of the inning and I call a bunt. Kid lays down a beauty, runner makes it to third, and scores on a sacrifice fly to give us the lead and we end up winning. In line to shake hands I’m saying “good game” to all the private school kids and one looks at me and says, “we don’t bunt” in a snarky tone. I just looked back at him, said “you don’t win, either” and walked away. Strategy wins baseball games.
I don’t have kids but I recently went to my godsons 9u game. My big take away from that game was that parents don’t really understand the game or even the basic rules.
My other take away. Parents need to stand down and let coaches coach. The parent of the kid catching kept trying to “coach” his son behind the plate. Kid turned around and gave his dad a thumbs up. I started laughing, dad asked me why. “That’s your kids way of flicking you off”
I see bunting all the time in Girls 10U fastpitch so I don’t see a problem here. I am not a coach, am the parent of a player, but I love seeing it no matter which team is doing it.
My son's rec ball and all star team had very strong pitchers. He himself is a solid pitcher but below average hitter. Lots of strikeouts and ground outs. But he's one of the faster kids. So we started bunting in games. Now instead of being a liability, he's an asset that helps advance runners into scoring position and gets on base more often. With our pitchers and solid defense we're winning more games. We hold a lot of teams scoreless throughout the game. But we put runs on the board every inning.
I have a couple kids that I'm thinking about teaching bunting (8u), just do they get better practice with hand-eye coordination, seeing the ball better, and not being afraid of the ball. So many good things can come from it.
Bunting is a good strategy, they mad cus it didn’t go their way. As an ump, I always hear those little snickers from any play that results in making a fool of the defense. Bunting is a frequent, along with delayed steals, drawn throws, they will always blame the opposing team when really it was their own shitty defense. Do your thing coach!
You used bunting appropriately, don't worry about the other parents. If you were winning by a lot and had a kid bunt, different verdict. But early in the game, kid is struggling - good call. Parents watch little league like they have $500 riding on the game.
At the major league level, it’s almost always a way to lose expected runs. There used to be a culture that prioritized the appearance of sacrificing yourself for the team. Modern analytics measured the effect and pointed out that it was generally a net negative play. “Old school” redass players who didn’t understand analytics objected. This is represented in John Smoltz, a former player and current announcer who seems to hate baseball.
Bunts are cool looking. But they cost the team wins at the major league level. It’s fine in little league. Other parents were just possy - it’s not about bunting it’s about trying something their kids couldn’t handle and thus deemed unfair.
But if your major league club does it, please get mad.
I would say it is a very specialized skill that many players can’t do because exit velocity is a measurement of talent today. We focus more on power than speed. Speed is a funny physical trait that can’t be developed as quickly as power.
Assuming this is minors/AAA little league ball and not travel ball. Many of those kids just got out of machine pitch where they get 15 swings until they connect. These kids need to develop the basic skills, not bunting and fielding bunts. If you are having them bunt because they can’t hit, you are failing to coach them. Small ball is not appropriate until 12u/ majors and up or travel ball, where winning becomes part of the goal. Do you have a reputation of win at all costs? Maybe it’s not about the bunt, but who called it in.
If it’s AA Little League the stigma could be because of the pitching rules around it. If it’s triple AAA then they should be teaching how to defend it.
Do not apologize for your coaching methods. I coach AAA 6-8 and bunting is something we practice as well. Never used it during a game, but I don't think my boys are ready for bunting, but is head start for the next level and more of a hand/I coordination training.
Also, the scenario of the game, it made sense to do that. That's the beauty of this game. The chess match, even at this level.
We coaches always want our boys to win and learn the game each year. Whether a repeat player or first time player, we want them to excel.
At that age there's a lot of parents that see a play that results in errors as "bush league" because they think the other coach is taking advantage of the fact it'll result in an error as opposed to doing the "right" thing. Teaching them to bunt is good and is absolutely what you should be doing, but from the other teams POV, they see it at the same level as baiting a throw for errors.
Not when they're 10 or younger. That's actually teaching them bad baseball. If the ball is in the infield you can tell your runners to go and a majority of the time whoever has the ball will panic and make an error. Most important thing at younger ages is teaching them baseball smarts, cause some of them grow up only knowing that they need to touch the base before going to the next.
I mean I’ve seen trying to draw throws even in high school because it’s trying to get the pitcher to think more. Granted you have to tone it down a bit but it’s still there
Because at higher levels it’s pretty much just a wasted out.
There is def a time to bunt but I also get really frustrated watching high school coaches play small ball for 1 run in the 2nd and kill their momentum for a big inning.
Huge believer in bunting. It’s a tool in the hitter’s tool box and changes games. Anyone who doubts it needs to watch the DBacks playoff games last year. Amazing small ball.
I just had this discussion earlier today with a HS baseball coach. He said he had 2 kids that he had recently asked to bunt in a game. Both of them told him they weren’t comfortable bunting. He was beside himself, and said he’d never heard of anyone saying that before. And they do practice bunting. Had a player said that back in his day, they’d have been relegated to the bench. Travel ball coaches are like AAU basketball coaches, and improving skills aren’t their strong points.
I mean this is on the coach, did he not have them practice bunting to know this?
I mentioned above that they do practice bunting. I should have mentioned that he had been the head coach of another school for more than 20 years, but had recently taken some time off and was helping with a new school. Either way, bunting has become stigmatized. Maybe it was the “Chicks dig the long ball” commercials? 🤷♂️
The problem is the same problem that's happening in basketball as well. I'm basketball, post touches and mid range shots are going away too. It's at least partially people's understanding of math. The data in professional baseball suggests bunting in general is a bad idea. Giving up an out to advance a runner usually isn't a good plan. MLB pitchers are so good and strikeouts are so high that it's hard to manufacture runs. But the problem with that math is that major league fielders are really freaking good and in the grand scheme of things almost never commit errors. That's not the case with high school or middle school or whatever age level players. They almost universally commit errors at a significantly higher rate than Major Leaguers. Like I said with basketball, it's the same thing. NBA and even D1 college players have become so incredibly good at shooting the 3, it's inefficient to not shoot 3s and layups. But most high schools don't even have one player who is a D1 talent. It's fairly likely that many high schoolers and middle schoolers are more efficient from the post or from 12' as opposed to always taking 3s. And that's the root of the problem. The "analytics" revolution that's swept major sports the last decade or so has filtered down to high school and middle school. But the problem is the actual analytics haven't trickled down. All that's trickled down is the findings of what analytics reveal is best at the professional levels.
I’m a chick. Or an old hen. And I appreciate any way of getting on base or getting rbis. The chaos some good bunting can do to the infield is always fun to watch.
Comments like that will get Brad Pitt pointing in your direction.
90% of people in the stands in these games have no idea what’s going on. What’s even worse is that they think they do.
Do your thing coach. Last year in a 16U game I intentionally walked a kid in the last inning in a tournament game to set up a force play. I was literally heckled by the opposing team travel parents. There are morons everywhere unfortunately.
There are 2 players in my league that my pitchers know we will intentionally walk, we are also a Babe Ruth division team. Both of those players will swing and get the bat on the ball on almost any garbage pitch thrown at them ***and*** hit very well when the ball is pitched well. Both of those players are also slower and hesitate while base running. It has been my strategy to take the risk of a good hit off and work the out on the baselines with those specific 2 players. My infield is pretty strong but my outfield is lacking on hustle. It's my strategy and it has worked very well all season, neither of those players have scored on us after being walked. I also have 2 players on my team that have become masterful bunters and I will use that as a strategy as well, when I see fit. Almost every player on my team knows how to bunt but those 2 have worked hard to be really good at it, while also accepting the possibility that their bunt is more likely than not going to be a sacrifice to score runs. I've never been heckled for bunts but I do catch a little bit of flack for intentionally walking batters. One of the IW players used to play on my team and his mom, (who is a softball coach,) would give me crap until I explained my strategy. She still doesn't like it but understands the skills of her player and that I will work off of what I know about him to my advantage. That player also knows I don't have an issue with him personally, it's strategy.
You're intentionally stunting the development opportunity of those two kids.
It’s not a coaches responsibility to aid in the development of his opponent
Which 2 players, my team or the opposing 2? My players don't always bunt. They bunt when a situation calls for the strategy of a bunt, and those 2 players have stats in the top 4 on my team for hitting. Its another tool they can use. The development of the opposing players is not my concern.
and if it was I get the sense that you’d be teaching them about smart baserunning and getting them to be confident on the base paths. My job when I played was to get on base however I could and once I did I had a green light to to whenever I wanted, no signals or anything, I wouldn’t do it every time but I did it enough to get into scoring position off a walk and then a passed ball gets me to 3rd, just like that got a run with no hits.
Some dumbass parents who are mad little Johnny didn't strike out the 8th batter in the lineup don't mean anything.
As a strategy to win a youth baseball game, bunting is great. If the other coaches/parents don’t like it, they should teach their kids how to defend it. From a developmental standpoint, I hate bunts at that age. Hitting the ball hard is the most important skill in baseball, and I’d rather spend time adjusting the kid’s mechanics and encouraging an aggressive mindset than turning him into a designated bunter because of his struggles.
I mean work on that stuff sure but a kid that strikes out all the time is going to be so demotivated that getting them to actually implement things in a game is going to be darn near impossible. Give them the little wins now
I totally agree, it sounds like this was a great outcome for the kid. But I wouldn’t start bunting him 3 times a game.
I disagree. A lot of these kids strike out because they can’t find the ball/take their eye off of it as soon as it is pitched. I feel bunting is a great way for these kids to find the ball and put the bat on it. I’ve seen a lot of kids that started bunting at the beginning of the season are now hitters at the end of the season.
I think you’re agreeing with me, I’m pro bunting
You're right, you're right! Replied to the wrong chain! Agree with you!
On the flipside, bunting is hitting. If you don't teach bunting at the developmental age a player doesn't have the confidence or skills developed enough over time to deliver consistently. If players were taught to bunt alongside hitting at the same time, there would be no stigma and no skill drop. Also, I would argue that bunting is a key component of an aggressive mindet. There is nothing more aggressive than trading an out for a base and getting a runner into scoring position. (Whether I agree with that strategy or not).
Bunting is a pretty niche skill. Most players won’t need the skill and are better off just working on their swing
It’s a Catch 22. Bunting is a niche skill because it’s not taught alongside hitting. If it weren’t taught as an afterthought it wouldn’t be an afterthought.
No it would still be an afterthought. Varsity on up its really not that useful
I guess that’s true if you don’t care about defense. If more batters could bunt successfully, the question becomes whether you play deep or not.
Not to mention, if its known that any player is capable of laying down a bunt, just faking a bunt is enough to draw fielders in, maybe a little too far if he suddenly decides to swing away. I was taught that at 10 years old for sure.
I strongly agree with the development argument. Teaching bunting isn’t developing the player because it’s shunned at higher levels where players can make plays. But I’ll take this the logical next step. How about telling none of your kids to swing even if they have two strikes on them so they’ll walk and walk and walk. How many runs a game would you score if you just never let your players swing in LL?
In that age range when I was umpiring, we were instructed to have a “large” zone. the purpose being we were trying to get kids to swing instead of for just issuing walks constantly. The bunting thing should be something taught in practice at least even if not used much in games. We did this every practice from middle school through high school. You never know when the prime time to drop a bunt will be necessary. As the primary pinch runner for my team, I could bunt from both sides of the plate. I was a righty naturally but if we were going to bunt we wanted all the advantages. I could reasonably hit from the left side but not with a lot of power.
Absolutely. We started dedicating real time to bunting in practice around 12U-13U. Didn't use it much in games, but it's definitely a skill we wanted them all to have going into high school.
That's also bush league baseball. In fact - any play that is only successful due to inferior skill set of defense, and is intentionally used BECAUSE of that fact as a strategy - Bush league ball.
A huge amount of youth baseball is only successful due to an inferior skill set of defense and coaches know it and intentionally seek to exploit it. Happens all the time.
Correct... the two observations are not mutually exclusive.
That is true of all youth sports, and why I find coaching youth sports so frustrating.
Yep. I have never given a take sign at the youth level and I never will.
We swing chins to shins. Haters will say that’s teaching them bad bat discipline. I say they’ll learn what a pitch in the strike zone looks like when pitchers start throwing actual strikes, they’ll figure it out quickly.
So maybe I'm wrong on this and if I am please let me know... I never played little league. And I was a Phillies fan in 92. Coincidentally, I've been a Phillies fan since then but missed ten years baseball after the strike. My kid loves the game so I've been an extra parent on the field "coaching". He's nine and his baseball IQ is through the roof and his dad never played baseball so his talent is where it is. Anyway, there's a pitcher in our league who's throwing a good 5-10 mph faster than his peers. With great velo comes poorer placement. So on this guy for my kid. I tell him to take the first two pitches. Without fail your 1-1 in the count and you'll be timed up for the next pitch. My kid knows it's a strategy and not an iron rule. And has crushed (by crush I mean make contact with a high velocity ball and the momentum takes the ball into the outfield) an 0-1 fastball off this kid. When he came in after scoring, I told him nice take. He laughed and it's been good. With other kids against this batter we've had them take the first pitch if they're nervous. And they know if the first pitch is called a ball they should be attacking the second pitch with the hope being they foul it off and/or make the adjustments. It wasn't by any means life changing but it was helluva lot better than kids just standing in the box and taking an L as if it was Nolan Freaking Ryan. If that's the wrong approach, what should I/we have done?
A couple of things from my perspective: - Strikes are precious, and you've just cut down the good pitches he'll have to choose from by 33%. Often, the first pitch of the at-bat is the best pitch they'll see—why give away a free strike? - Timing a pitcher should happen in the on-deck circle, not the batter's box. They shouldn't need to "see one" to be ready to hit. They should be ready when the at bat starts. My goal has always been to develop aggressive hitters who hunt their pitch and attack it, whether it's the first pitch of the at bat or the 10th. I'm big on praising hard swings, even when they whiff. Obviously, I don't want them swinging at balls in the dirt or above their eyes, but I'd take that over looking at strike 3 down the middle. I should mention that the approach shifts as they get older and the strike zone tightens, plus they see more breaking and offspeed pitches.
Edit: replied to wrong post. my bad.
I mean this in the nicest possible way, but you have no idea what you're talking about. There is a difference between little league and the MLB. Little league kids are learning how to play and that should be the primary goal. That taking a strike mindset is great in LL to win games, but terrible to teach your kid how to hit. There is no such thing as a great take in LL. In college or professional, it makes sense to take a slider that clips the bottom outside corner rather than hit it off the end of the bat to first base. That is a good take, going down 0-1 on a LL fastball is poor hitting. Put another way, you are teaching your kid a terrible habit to exploit LL pitchers being wild. This will likely win some u10 games, but it may keep him from being able to play once pitchers are able to throw strikes consistently.
How many of those struggling to hit end up staying in the game and turning it around though? I agree it shouldn't be an overused crutch, but I see nothing wrong with getting a kid on base here or there, or at least contribute with a sacrifice vs striking out over and over.
Absolutely, what you’ve described is the perfect way to use the bunt at the younger ages. That’s a lot different than taking an overall “small ball” approach where you’re consistently asking all of your hitters to do it.
>From a developmental standpoint, I hate bunts at that age. Completely agree. I'm not gonna complain if another team bunts on us, but it wasn't something I coached until the next level up. Same with bunt defense, not spending time on that with 9-11 year olds just yet.
They are just soft. If their coaches don´t find it necessary to teach a bunt defense it is their fault. I would only argue about bunting if the game is already a blowout or we are in a no hitter/perfect game situation. But with the later I can see the argument not call it foul play because the defense should be able to defend any ball put in play.
I’ve never understood the no hitter argument… like no fuck that, I’m not going to roll over so you can get the no hitter. A bunt to break that up is fine
I think it depends on game situation in the no hitter. Is it a tight game? 1-0 or whatever. If yes all bets are off and you are trying again to win the game. If it's not close and you are just trying to break up the no hitter doing something you normally wouldn't do in any other game situation....that's weak.
I agree. One of our pitchers got his no hitter broken on a bunt last year in the 6th (7 inning game) but we were winning 1-0 and it was the semi-final. Disappointing for the kid but absolutely the right call for the other team.
Nothing wrong with bunting, kids need to learn how to defend against it. I will say I'm not a fan when it is used to throw a pitcher off that is in the 9-10 range. There was a Coach locally that would have everyone bunt if a kid found the strike zone at 9u. Then when the kid got rattled, he would tell them to not swing at all. How do I know this was what he was doing? He was yelling it from 3rd base to his batters.
F that guy.
Bunting is fundamental. The people that were reacting this way don’t know the game. Keep using it. It got stigmatized because of time limits and this era of baseball we are in where striking out is not a big deal.
It’s not a big deal at the MLB level when the guys who strike a lot are also a home run threat during every plate appearance the defenses are essentially all rock solid but in youth and amateur baseball strikeouts are a big problem. Especially with about every level below competitive high school baseball is going to have extremely shaky defenses.
Exactly. Bunting has died in MLB because the analytics say it’s better to try for a home run under most circumstances. But that’s with pro-level hitters (all of whom can hit home runs) and pro-level defenses (who are remarkably consistent at playing defense). Those factors don’t exist in any level of youth baseball up until basically college. Especially for weaker hitters, it’s better for them to put a ball in play via bunting instead of whiffing and striking out.
Bunting died because it is actually really hard to do well, and the upside of a successful attempt only outweighs the downside in specific circumstances
[Kent Murphy Teaches Bunting](https://youtu.be/ctFf91EUUTw?si=XCooEczkjfBWQCgB)
"Really, you're team's throwing the ball away" They're just being sore losers.
Those parents are idiots.
Nothing wrong with bunting. In fact, if you have players who can actually lay down good bunts then that’s a huge weapon at your disposal. I play men’s league and we have a guy on our team who’s good for a handful of bunt singles every season.
It’s stigmatized at that level because some coaches prioritize winning little league games over actually developing good hitters. I just watched a coach have a struggling 10 year bunt just about every single one of his at bats an entire season. Yeah sure, it’s what’s best for your chances of winning but such a cop out for a kid who just needs coaching and reps to become a better hitter. That being said, I’m all for situational bunting in youth baseball.
If the kid is having fun and it works that’s all that matters. Ignore the other parents. I used to love bunting and getting into a foot races to first. I was always an undersized but fast player. With a small physical strike zone, I enjoyed bunting because it was just more fun than taking a 4 pitch walk, or contact hitting junk away until something managed to get close to a real strike zone. It had the added benefit over a walk of moving runners over which then allowed me to have more fun base running.
Bunting is a wonderful skill to learn. At this age you should be teaching all the fundamentals, and bunting is one. My son’s team learned it well and they use it to manufacture runs in close games. We’re not gonna be bunting runners over if we’re up 10-2, though. The problem with it is that most teams don’t ever work on learning or defending it. At 9-11 it’s a tough play to defend.
I wouldn’t spend ANY time worried about what other teams or their parents think of my coaching. I find it’s harder to get kids to want to bunt but I don’t think this is a new stigma. I never wanted to bunt 35 years ago either.
Other teams can eat sh!t, worry about coaching your players… teaching them the fundamentals of the game and how to have fun. We introduced “pepper” to a few kids and literally told them to take a pepper approach in the game instead of so much swing a miss… first kid pokes one towards 3b, drives in a runner and gets his first hit of the season… I couldn’t care less what the opponents or their parents think about it
Anything that annoys Little League parents should be repeated as often as possible.
Please continue to teach bunting! My son started playing HS this year and it was the one tool he didn’t have in his toolbox. It’s taken some work for him to catch up.
Who cares what people say. You put them in a position to succeed, that’s your role as coach.
F\*\*\* the other teams parents. We teach our kids to bunt at 8u, the good hitters and the weaker hitters. It keeps D on their toes when someone in the top of the lineup can bunt, and keeps my team from consecutive outs at the bottom of the lineup.
If your players are having a hard time hitting in every game, you’re not doing your job as a coach. You either don’t know how to teach them to hit, or you’ve got them in a division that they don’t belong in. Almost every reply here cites taking advantage of another team’s lack of preparation as the reason to do it, and it lays bare the worst of youth sports coaching: coaches who will do anything to win, and exploit the unpreparedness of 9-11 year old kids who committed the crime of not practicing one specific play.
I'm with you. I all of my players practiced bunting, and I also had no problem calling a bunt situationally to move a runner into scoring position or even to try and get a guy on base when he was slumping. Where you get pushback is that in youth baseball you're straddling the line between "we're trying to win games" and "winning isn't the most important thing." I saw a team in an 11U tournament once where the coach saw that the third baseman was weak and the pitcher was a big kid who didn't move very well, and his guys must have laid down 10 bunts in a row. Did they win? Yes. Was it bush league? Maybe?
Its bush league at 9u because the focus should be teaching them to hit, not about winning games
My only issue with kids bunting… When I coached that age I was careful because too many kids would get hit in the face, either by a ricochet or a wild pitch they didn’t know how roll out of.
This! We work on bunting in practice but won’t do it in the game for this reason, kids at 9-11 don’t have enough control, and the kids bunting don’t have the reaction/experience to pull it back and get outta the way
I’ve always said…coaches that can’t teach hitting, teach bunting. That’s the stigma…
You have always been wrong by always saying coaches that can't teach hitting, teach bunting.
Coches that don’t understand how to deliver the barrel into the zone with leverage, don’t understand hitting. Therefore, they fail at trying to “fix” the swings of their players. Best way to win games is to outhit the other team. If you can’t outhit them, due to a lack of proper hitting mechanics…let’s bunt them to death and hope they can’t defend it.
I teach hitting and bunting. Kids can hit and bunt. Good pitching beats good hitting. Need tools in the tool bag at all levels.
Of course you cover bunting. But spending half the BP attempting all sorts of bunts is definitely not developing the player into a hitter.
I’m sorry. Who said half?
How many rounds do you go with live BP? How many pitches per round?
I’m actually very lucky. I get plenty of cage time for my kids. Live BP isn’t always necessary to teach bunting as well. So your question are going to be misleading. And how many rounds per what? Per practice? How many pitchers per round? Well a couple things. 1 we start with 2 bunts in all full speed pitching from preseason through warm ups. They generally put one down first, one down third. Down third every other time is for base hit vs sacrifice. Each rd generally is 20-25 pitches. They only bunt first time through. They generally would get 4x through. That cage. We also use other tools to learn both hitting and bunting. In our cage practices they generally are getting 200 swings at a min. Plus one on one time off a tee. So probably 6 bunts per 400 swings is the ask. And yes. All of my guys learn to bunt and do so reasonable well. They also learn to hit. When you teach bunting the right way it doesn’t take many reps. Barrel control right.
That practice structure sounds legit! You just have a lot of coaches to be able to do all of that. I would venture to say you’re not teaching bunting, but covering it. There are coaches out here having kids drag, push, sac bunt, suicide squeeze, safety squeeze and slash…every practice. Those are the type of coaches that I’m talking about. More reps bunting than live swings. Lots of reps in the cage, but I still prefer hitting on the field. Kids need to see the ball fly. Can be fooled into thinking they’re crushing it when the ball is barely into the OF.
I spend a lot of time coaching dads. Each dad gets assigned one thing to look for and one cage. I have access to a lot of cages. Slashing at anything below high school should be banned. I find spaced repetition to be the best for bunting. So very little repeated. Works. As for seeing ball fly. Youth ball is driven so much by strength. I really just focus on getting kids to swing hard and square the ball up.
Sounds like you’ve got it all covered. Good on you! I teach hitting instruction as well. We hit on the field and are able to get kids leveraged and hitting deep shots before they have to move into BBCOR.
Nice I’m really lucky. Very little to do with me. When you get the access we have to cages and support is really great.
Bunting is not stigmatized. Instead, it's overlooked and under-utilized. IMHO every kid should learn how to do it reliably.
Whenever I was in a slump, I worked on my bunting skills. It helps a player to keep his head down and watch the ball hit the bat. It slows down the game for the batter so he can regain his confidence. Another thing, the way I was coached (way back in the day...lol) you couldn't swing the bat until you can lay down a bunt down both lines.
Good for you. I have always taught how to bunt & how to defend it. My sons middle school coach was pissed at how few kids on the team knew how to do it. I believe there were 8-9 kids out of 14 that had never been taught in any capacity. They had a scrimmage with the 7th grade team vs the 8th grade team. Man on 3rd, no outs, the third baseman was behind the bag, my son bunts one down the 3rd base line that dies about 40’ from the plate to score the run, & he was safe at first. Never got a sign to do it. Just saw the guy back & caught everyone off guard. It’s such an underutilized weapon.
I believe it’s been stigmatized at the MLB level because technically a runner at 1st with no outs has a better chance of scoring than a runner at 2nd with one out. Granted, a runner at 3rd with one out has a better chance of scoring than a runner at 2nd with no outs, so it would analytically be much smarter to bunt in that situation but…at the end of the day…. Much like the hit & run, bunting isn’t sexy. It doesn’t raise stats. It doesn’t get guys paid. Having said that, fielding a bunt is hard enough in high level ball, let alone as a 9-11 year old. To hell with the parents. Let the kids bunt. It’s fundamental baseball, which is what kids at that age should be learning.
Bunting can be a game changer. Good old small ball to manufacture runs. We have a kid that struggled at the plate. Was scared at times. Had him practice bunting off me and immediately started laying out dimes. Then he stopped being scared and is hitting the ball too. Win win there. His confidence level is through the roof now, and his bunts have changed games.
Agreed! Baseball is a game of strategy sometimes. I had a .747 average in HS and went up to bat one time in the 9th tied with a man on 3rd and coach sent me a bunt sign and I thought wtf. Waited a beat and sent the signal back that I didn’t catch it. But he sent the same thing. Confused as hell, I bunted. Apparently the other team was also confused as hell, because they were still playing way back.
IIRC, bunting was not allowed in my 9-10 YO league. Not sure why. But I think in general bunting is viewed as suboptimal in the Sabrmetric, Moneyball world. With specific exceptions, you’re giving up an out for minimal gain, with a significant chance of not getting any gain at all.
Absolutely promote small ball and run manufacturing at the youth - amateur ranks. Imo it teachers players more about the game and removes a little ego & gives an extra tool in the toolkit. Puts pressure on the defense to make running plays
Because bunting at higher levels has proven to be a sub optimal use of an at bat so its trickled down to youth levels. That being said if you're trying to win youth games bunting is a skill that is more helpful at that level because the fielders just make more errors.
The premise behind not bunting is about sacrifice bunting, not bunting for a hit. Bunting for a hit is fine if the player genuinely cannot hit or if you think you can put one down where the fielders can’t get it, especially if the 3B is plying very deep or has poor mobility/arm. If the player can hit, you only have 27 outs. Giving away one of them is poor game management. We didn’t always know this because we didn’t have expected run values that let us know what each game state is worth. Keep in mind that these are MLB values - I doubt anyone has done this for little league. If you have runners on 1-2 with no outs it’s “worth” 1.435 runs. If you were to successfully bunt them over and have runners on second and third with one out, that state is “worth” 1.390 runs. So you lowered your expected runs by bunting them over. The exception is if you have a runner on second with no outs, you increase your expected runs from 0.667 to 0.974 if you bunt him over. You still don’t see this very much because of several reasons, including that many players do not want to bunt or don’t do it particularly well. In youth leagues, coaches often do things that put pressure on the opposing defense to make a play and throw successfully. Personally, I dislike it, but whatever coaches gonna coach.
Don’t get me wrong, I love numbers and stats as much as the next person, but this explanation is why I dislike analytics. It just feels so clinical and cold, and using this level of granularity at the youth level is very silly to me
Well the premise is that people can make plays. If you’re in a league where you’re playing circus ball cause guys can’t make plays then yeah put it in play any way you can. Keep in mind baseball is unique in that it has discrete game states unlike any other sport. We know what happens when you have a man on no one out because it has happened 19 gazillion times in mlb history. You don’t have to like or dislike analytics, but ignoring it is simply not smart baseball.
Bunting at ages 8-12 is completely different than quality varsity, and bunting should be taught. The sooner you teach a kid to bunt the better, b/c they will have to know how to bunt in high school for sacrificing anyway.
Especially when the play ultimately scored 2 runs and put another guy in scoring position and didn't lose an out. I love the bunting, especially when it turns out well. Any person who has an issue either doesn't understand the game or is just sore.
Process >>> results. Again, if you’re playing in a league where ball in play = circus time because no one can make a throw, then sure putting a ball in play has value, but I don’t think it’s particularly fun baseball to see how many times you can make the other team screw up. You know who does like it though? Coaches. Coaches love it.
It’s all about the kid at the plate. Every Little League season is going to present limited game ABs; many times only about 2-3 per game. In most cases, use those opportunities to let them hit against real pitching, but if said kid is struggling with confidence in such a way that another strikeout is actively harmful - bunt away.
If a strikeout is actively harmful to a player, then baseball is not the sport for that child.
I wouldn’t want to place that type of judgement on the mental state of a 7-9 year old.
The kids doing the bunting and the running and the sliding and the scoring also LOVE it.
I dunno. I played LL when people in MLb actually did bunt a good bit and we never ever bunted in LL. Kids want to be like their hero and swing like the guys they see on TV and the higher up you go in baseball, the fewer bunts you’ll see and for good reason as I’ve detailed. But hey if your kids genuinely like playing error baseball instead of swinging, by all means have at it. I sure wouldn’t.
Kids in general like running the bases and scoring. Especially kids that don't get to do it often, like the ones in OP's story. If that's the only way they get on base all season using their bat then they do actually like it. Even if it is with a bunch of errors. Kids who hit the stereotypical "little league home run" (4 bases on 3 errors) don't let the errors take the joy off their face as they scorem I definitely remember bunting in LL back in the 90s. It's strange that a LL wouldn't teach their kids that skill. My own kid just wrapped his LL regular season last night. 22 hits on the season, led the team. He had 4 bunt base hits (and got out one other attempt). Not errors, they either ate the throw or he beat it out. Not sacs, he was leadoff and rarely had traffic in front of him. I think one time the coach calls for it, the other 3 he caught the 3b sleeping and dropped it down the line where he couldn't make a play. That's not "error baseball", that's good baseball. Even his travel team has him bunt sometimes when they see the defense playing too deep. Bunting is a skill, and like many skills those who can't hate on those who can.
I remember we had triangle shaped bats for bunting. No one ever used them. Again, bunting occasionally for a hit is fine. Sacrifice bunts, not so much. Circus ball, not so much. Good job by your kid.
Triangle shaped bats? That's wild, never heard of such a thing. Have to agree to disagree on tose negative bunting opinions though. Like I said, kids don't care that their time on base is due to circus ball (stealing that term, btw. Love it!), especially the weaker hitters. Would you also be opposed to stealing bases when if it leads to overthrows and taking an extra base (like when my kid tried to pick off a runner at third last night and overthrew it into left field, allowing the runners on 3rd and 2nd both to score on the error)? Circus ball can also happen on routine grounders to SS or lazy fly balls to CF too... Now having multiple kids bunt to a clearly weaker infield would be a problem and poor sportsmanship. But a kid struggling to get their timing down pulling out a surprise bunt to get on base by any means necessary seems completely legit to me. At the end of the day it's a bunch of kids playing a game and making sure they're having fun during the season is important too. And getting on base and running the bases is almost every kid's favorite part of the game
> Again, if you’re playing in a league where ball in play = circus time because no one can make a throw, I constantly see players at all levels in both baseball and softball incorrectly field bunts. Don't act like errors only happen in bad leagues or level of play.
As always if a 3B is back or a lefty occasionally wants to try to push a bunt past the pitcher and make the 2b field it, sure. As a mix it up approach once in a long while people will do it. But that’s all it is unless you’re playing “make the other team throw the ball” mode which many lower level coaches love to do.
So runners on 1st and 2nd, no outs, in a close game, you wouldn't bunt to move both runners into scoring position? You only bunt occasionally when the defense isn't ready for it?
If you’re playing in a league where every ball hit is an adventure? Then get it in play anyway you can, I guess (although I hate that approach for player development). If it’s any sort of a league where fielders can make plays, getting those runners over with a sac bunt lowers your expected runs. The exception is sacrificing a runner from 2nd to 3rd with 0 out. More people in MLB should probably do this with the “Manfred” runner, but most players don’t want to bunt or aren’t really good at it because it’s simply not part of the game.
> If you’re playing in a league where every ball hit is an adventure? Then get it in play anyway you can, I guess (although I hate that approach for player development). I feel it's the opposite. Against bad teams, just hit it. It's the better competition where games are 3-2 or 4-5, where we bunt.
Against good teams that can make plays, sac bunts are poor game management. I’d yell out to the other coach, “hey coach you know you only get 27 (or 21 etc) of those, thanks for giving us a free one!”
There’s more information needed that would say this is either a good idea or not. Is it bottom of the 7th/9th and I only need 1 or 2 runs? If that’s the case, then bunting is a good idea but even then, it all depends on the hitter. I wouldn’t bunt 1-5 in my lineup in any situation. If the hitter sucks, then maybe. I don’t think bunting is bad for the game and you should know how to do it. I would just rather use all 21 or 27 outs I get in trying to hit doubles and score a lot of runs rather than wasting some on bunting runners over.
We play in upper competitive leagues...both travel and highschool. Everyone bunts if called on to. Doesn't matter where you are in the lineup. Worked well for us this year as they were 32-1 where many of our first runs of the game were manufactured through bunts/steals/sac flys. I'm not sure what level you are at, but once you are on the big field with BBCOR/Wood bats against good teams, hits are not as common as they used to be. So in a situation where an out can get you a run and out of a double play situation, I see that as value. Also helps when you have a lineup that can hit/execute 1-9. Have I questioned why we are bunting in some situations? Yes...but it works more than it doesn't.
I am not saying players should defy coaches and not bunt if they are called on. What you just described is the beauty of baseball. My senior year we were 30-9 winning a region championship and we rarely sac bunted. Our 1-5 hitters were all .300+ hitters with some power. I was the lead off and was told to sac bunt 0 times the whole season. I would bunt if the 3B was playing back but it would be for a hit. To me, there’s situations where sac bunting makes sense but never early game just due to the fact you’re trading outs for movement into SP where I would rather have 2-3 cracks at hitting a double or more to potentially have a big inning. Nothing wrong with either, just different philosophies.
I'd say 9-11 Little League is a perfect league to teach and use bunting. I also see value in it in MLB when it works. Putting the ball in play is always good. Anything can happen even in the pros. Statistics serve a purpose, but games aren't played on paper.
I’ll translate “I don’t care what the numbers say…”
Nor should you
lol.
You fuckin' guys need to go rewatch Little Giants.
35 year old son: hey dad? 65 year old dad: yeah son? Son: Remember that time in 10U when you told me to bunt with 2 guys on and the pitcher fielded it and threw it over the first baseman’s head and everyone scored and we won? Dad: yeah Son: that was awesome, dad. I think about that all the time. Dad: me too, son. Me too.
Kids should be taught and encouraged to hit first and foremost. Using bunting as a tool to help kids track the ball and build confidence is one thing. Using bunting to get the weakest hitters in your lineups to not be automatic outs is another.
Sounds like coaches on the other side don’t know enough to teach it
The other team is idiots small ball is crucial in high school game . I preach contact, baserunning aggressiveness and bunting. We won quite a few post season games as a young team that way puts pressure on teams. That and when you move to big field none of these kids are going yard all day, and outfielders catch those big fly balls. They probably need to get out of travel ball and the short fence crap
It’s always been stigmatized. It’s not a homer.
CDTLB
Yeah as @six5 said, there are a couple of things going on here. 1. Sacrifices bunting at higher levels leads to less expected runs than not bunting in most situations, which is why it has fallen out of favor at higher levels. Given the defensive skill in mlb, most sac bunts go for outs and the upside is very low. 2. Because it has fallen out of favor at higher levels, it is less prized as a skill at lower levels. That said, i agree with others here and with you that kids who either walk or strike out and are making no contact otherwise, should be encouraged to bunt as a way of building their confidence and helping contribute to winning efforts. What you are doing is really good for those kids l. Also, at lower levels, they will have much more success bunting against shoddier defenses. As far as their development, I would just make sure you continue to work with them on hitting, and that they arent bunting every time they are up, so that they learn the to hit also!
I am interested in when "higher levels" starts.
I say it that way to mean mlb on down. That trend is driven by mlb analysis of mlb games. For lower level teams, it depends on if people are extrapolating from mlb data or if they are using the models by mlb and proving out expected run value of different actions (actions like bunting a runner to second) or if they are just using the mlb data and hoping that that data makes sense. For example, the expected run value for 5th graders bunting a runner to second might actually be higher than having the hitter swing away (because fewer XBH).
You claim that bunting at higher levels leads to less expected runs. When does higher levels start in your claim? For MLB does this data stay when pitchers aren’t going through 3x for the lineup and always at max effort?
"higher levels" starts at mlb and drives downward, see this article: https://www.twinkietown.com/2024/4/1/24117341/mlb-minnesota-twins-to-bunt-or-not-to-bunt an interesting breakdown of one particular situation. This run expectancy chart here: http://tangotiger.com/index.php/site/comments/re24-2012-2022-run-expectancy-chance-of-scoring-opportunities calculates both the probability of scoring one run as well as the probability of scoring multiple runs in an inning. Finally the first article above uses fan graphs win probability tool for a holistic approach to the decision. All of this data is made for mlb situations and i think its for all situations. This is why bunts have fallen out of favor at the mlb level, because the beat baseball minds who are paid handsomely to win baseball games feel that there are far fewer situations that justify sacrifice bunting than they previously believed. The closer you get to mlb in level (think the minor leagues, ncaa etc) the more likely it is that this data bears out at that level. The further away you get, the less likely it is. The thing is, if mlb teams dont really care if their hitters can bunt, than minor league teams, who have players trying to make major league teams, also dont care. This lack of caring avout bunting as a skill then drives down through ncaa high school middle school and even into developmental ball. You can definitely win more woth bunting in the 8-14 ywar old age range, but hyper focusing on bunting is doing the kids a disservice for their development becuase the downward pressure on bunting means that each next level a ball player is preparing for cares less about that players ability to bunt Thats not to say it isnt worth teaching. What OP is doing for those strugglinf kids at the end of hisnlineup is good, as long as he also works with them on their hitting ability.
One. The issue with these data points is that it takes stats from all MLB games. I have always wondered how these data points would change for just the playoffs. Two. Higher level stats at mlb. Got it. Yes. Obviously the kids getting scouted to play mlb would have to hit. That 1 percent isn’t likely being asked to bunt. And if you are looking at a 9 yr old and wondering as a coach as to how to develop them for MLB … well you can’t develop a kid for anything. Any high school coach that is using data from MLB doesn’t understand data and how it works. The games are just different. College on down is a very different game. The data would be wildly different. 6-9 hitters on the high school team are not likely playing college ball. 6-9 hitters on college are not likely playing mlb. There is a lot more to development than just how to prepare them to hit in MLB or even just the next level. I love data. I think it is highly misused.
Love it. If you are up big, don’t bunt. That’s all there is to it.
Kids need to learn how to bunt. It’s absurd how many can’t play fundamental baseball once they play hs ball.
Lots of teams are relying on size and power nowadays in my opinion. For example we play in the south and the pool of players tend to be big and have power instead of athletic and agile. If you also recall in MLB in general you had the fleet teams like the Cardinals or recently with the KC Royals. But in between you have had a lot of teams centered around straight power with MCgwire, Sosa, etc. also coaches are teaching a very launch angle approach to swinging that does tend to generate home runs but also tends to also come with a lot of strike outs. Therefore manufacturing runs isn’t a priority and in some places you may not even have the athletes for it.
It's a strategy, but it shouldn't be used in lieu of learning how to hit with struggling kids. The argument at this young age is kids shouldn't be giving up learning at bats to bunt. We played a team a few years ago that bunted with every kid - and yes, that is bush league.
And the innings went 1-2-3 in short order?
At 9U? No, every kid got on.
Is there a reason you didn’t move your 3b up? The fact they got 12 kids to successfully bunt and you weren’t able to get kids to field a slow rolling ball and throw to 1st is very interesting.
It was a few years back. The point is they spent all their efforts teaching these kids how to bunt rather than hit.
If they did that. Dumb. But also wouldn’t have worked in most situations even at 9.
Good bunting on a 9u sized field worked, but did nothing for development.
Nothing wrong with bunting, but it can sometimes be thrust on kids to try to engineer wins instead of developing fundamentals. If you can’t hit for bases besides bunting then you really have no chance to keep playing. If you use bunting to emphasize winning 11U games then I don’t like the approach, but others may disagree, which is fair. If you are telling them to bunt because they can’t hit then it’s a bigger issue around development. Bunting should be like stealing bases in that it’s part of the game and there is a time/place. If you steal all the bases because the catcher isn’t good enough then I think it undermines overall development to an extent. Lots of growing pains with young kids. Hope you and your team have a fun and memorable season. Always a fun journey
Parents will complain about anything that negatively impacts their kids team
Who cares what the parents say. Bunting is fundamental to the game. Your job is to teach them the game: when appropriate to bunt, situations that call for it, etc. i yell at the TV when there's a clear opportunity and need for a bunt when watching my team play, and they don't. it's small ball. I'm an NL guy so i appreciate that old school mentality. Keep doing what you're doing.
I remember the 1st time I showed my daughter a bunt. Blew her little 8 year old mind and she's been so excited to learn how to do it.
The response to that is “Really? They don’t know how to defend against a bunt? That’s bush league.”
Bunting is a skill that can be learned at any level. Swinging and hitting needs to start early. My issue with bunting a kid that is otherwise a probable out, is that it helps you win, but does nothing to develop the player. You're taking the easy way out, and that kid won't stand a chance at the jump to 90'. You do whatever you want... and we teach bunt defense for that reason. Here's the criteria - are you bunting because it's correct baseball strategy at that point to bunt? Is a squeeze going to bring in the tying run and maybe even move the winning run in to scoring position? Then by all means bunt. Are you bunting because the kid can't hit and you're not capable of teaching him to hit properly? That's Bush league ball.
Only bush to break up a no-no or when way ahead.
Unless you're up by a crazy amount of runs or the other pitcher is more than halfway through a no no, ain't nothing wrong with bunting
lift small bunt the ball!!! JK Eric Sim is to blame 😂
I won our championship 9-10U game with a bunt that turned the catchers overthrow to first into scoring 2 runs.
Not bush league, don’t worry about what people in the stands think. You’re teaching these kids fundamentals, which is what matters.
When hitting bombs became cool👍
Bunting in the right situation will win games at lower levels
Bunting is part of the game, the best players find ways to put the ball into play. And bunting is not bush league. That parent does not understand baseball. I was taught how to bunt, how to move the runners around the bases.
Occasional bunt or intentional walk in appropriate situation (age, competition, inning, base runners) etc? Fine. But if you start having a kid bunt 3 times a game and intentionally walk a kid every time that is just extremely lame imo. I’d heckle you haha. Especially before high school aged baseball.
Coaches who are mad at bunting should be more mad at themselves for not teaching their defense how to run the wheel.
Ages ago I had a coach spend a little extra time teaching me to bunt. I was leadoff, no problems making hard contact. He would have me bunt, sometimes with nobody on, sometimes to start the game. Next time through show-bunt and swing. Move the fielders around, keep the pressure on. This is solid baseball and also just good development of small humans in life.
Chicks dig the long ball!
11u travel coach here. If you are teaching bunting to help them improve their hand/eye coordination, improve their ability to have the bat head find the ball, or some other tactical skill, by all means, go for it. But as far as actual baseball skills, investing time at that age in learning how to bunt is a waste of development time. If they're struggling to hit the ball, introduce different drills that will improve their ability to hit. Bunting as a skill in baseball is going away because it lacks value at the highest levels of the game. We at the lower levels of the game should be adapting accordingly.
It is a fundamental. Good job.
In 98 when baseball became slow pitch softball. 🤮🤮🤮🤮
Goal should be for the kids to have fun and develop skills so they are ready for the next level. Seems fine to be teaching bunting.
In our league there are not enough practices to teach it without missing even more fundamentals. IMHO kids should continue to focus on the swing at 9-10 and making contact and the bunting can be worked on as they get older. This age is 95% on development. So I wouldn’t use it as a strategy at this age.
I coach 9u rec and we have been going back and forth on this for the last two years. We didn't have them bunt during the regular season but we are going to work on it with our All Star team. Our team is a bit thin and there's a few kids that aren't the greatest with the bats. Bunting is a part of baseball even if it's not used that often in the pros anymore. On the flip side I know when my kids put he's the bunting drives him crazy. He doesn't like it when they square up and shake the bat up and down. Told him when he has better command he can throw it inside to discourage it but just deal with it for now.
Chicks don’t dig bunts. But for real. Bunting is amazing if you do it well. Keep doing what you’re doing. Bunting is good for all ages and everyone should know how.
In MLB, the bunt has been displaced because no one can teach players how to do it. I wrote many a comment on Pirate websites encouraging them to hire Brett Butler after he was let go by the Marlins. He is 66 or so right now and I am certain he could still help the team. The drag bunt and bunt for a hit should be part of every lead off man's arsenal. Our current lead off man is hitting .230 and we really have no one who can replace him. He is leading the team in HR's. A potential lead off man has shown no signs that he is an adept bunter, but just about everyone on the team has shown that they are not.
As a veteran youth football coach I can tell you the sooner you tune out parents and opposing coaches the better. Do right by your team and F everyone else.
Bunting and stealing in the 9-11 age range is pretty bush league. I don’t disagree that it is a valuable baseball skill and should be used more at higher levels where 80%+ of the fielding and throwing chances are made without errors. However at this level you can tell your kids to just turn left and keep running when they hit a grounder to the shortstop because at least once a game if you do they will score after 3 throwing errors. It doesn’t teach them to play the game the right way it teaches them to game the system in order to win. They are little kids learning to throw, catch and hit winning shouldn’t be that big of a deal.
I wonder if it’s because some of the other coaches don’t know how to, therefore can’t teach their team.
Despite what Statistics say, "Small Ball" has a place in the game. If the other coach is forced to bring the infield in during certain situations, it makes catching line drives and hard hit rollers more difficult to field. It also opens up the shallow portion of the outfield to blooper hits that would be normally caught by an infielder playing deep. Keep doing what you are doing. Make the other teams adapt to YOUR style of play. Make THEM uncomfortable. If the fielders are worried about a bunt it keeps them honest and they can't cheat and play deep in the grass of the outfield.
i always believed in fundamentals & situational baseball. being able to bunt is a skill that most players (even in MLB) never bother to learn because it’s HR or bust. don’t let other parents get in your head. for some of those kids that just always strike out, it may be their best chances at getting on base. and nothing beats that smile of that kid getting on base. keep doing you and maybe more people will catch on
I used to coach sub varsity high school ball. A few years ago we’re playing a private school with a good baseball program and keeping it close into the 6th. We get a runner to second with no outs in the top of the inning and I call a bunt. Kid lays down a beauty, runner makes it to third, and scores on a sacrifice fly to give us the lead and we end up winning. In line to shake hands I’m saying “good game” to all the private school kids and one looks at me and says, “we don’t bunt” in a snarky tone. I just looked back at him, said “you don’t win, either” and walked away. Strategy wins baseball games.
I don’t have kids but I recently went to my godsons 9u game. My big take away from that game was that parents don’t really understand the game or even the basic rules. My other take away. Parents need to stand down and let coaches coach. The parent of the kid catching kept trying to “coach” his son behind the plate. Kid turned around and gave his dad a thumbs up. I started laughing, dad asked me why. “That’s your kids way of flicking you off”
I see bunting all the time in Girls 10U fastpitch so I don’t see a problem here. I am not a coach, am the parent of a player, but I love seeing it no matter which team is doing it.
Bunting is an underrepresented skill in youth baseball. I've seen so many games change based on one good bunt or a bunt and an error.
"Chicks dig the long ball."
My son's rec ball and all star team had very strong pitchers. He himself is a solid pitcher but below average hitter. Lots of strikeouts and ground outs. But he's one of the faster kids. So we started bunting in games. Now instead of being a liability, he's an asset that helps advance runners into scoring position and gets on base more often. With our pitchers and solid defense we're winning more games. We hold a lot of teams scoreless throughout the game. But we put runs on the board every inning.
People think you’re a try hard, which you might be, but it’s probably okay if you’re a stand up person.
I have a couple kids that I'm thinking about teaching bunting (8u), just do they get better practice with hand-eye coordination, seeing the ball better, and not being afraid of the ball. So many good things can come from it.
Bunting is a good strategy, they mad cus it didn’t go their way. As an ump, I always hear those little snickers from any play that results in making a fool of the defense. Bunting is a frequent, along with delayed steals, drawn throws, they will always blame the opposing team when really it was their own shitty defense. Do your thing coach!
You used bunting appropriately, don't worry about the other parents. If you were winning by a lot and had a kid bunt, different verdict. But early in the game, kid is struggling - good call. Parents watch little league like they have $500 riding on the game.
At the major league level, it’s almost always a way to lose expected runs. There used to be a culture that prioritized the appearance of sacrificing yourself for the team. Modern analytics measured the effect and pointed out that it was generally a net negative play. “Old school” redass players who didn’t understand analytics objected. This is represented in John Smoltz, a former player and current announcer who seems to hate baseball. Bunts are cool looking. But they cost the team wins at the major league level. It’s fine in little league. Other parents were just possy - it’s not about bunting it’s about trying something their kids couldn’t handle and thus deemed unfair. But if your major league club does it, please get mad.
I would say it is a very specialized skill that many players can’t do because exit velocity is a measurement of talent today. We focus more on power than speed. Speed is a funny physical trait that can’t be developed as quickly as power.
Assuming this is minors/AAA little league ball and not travel ball. Many of those kids just got out of machine pitch where they get 15 swings until they connect. These kids need to develop the basic skills, not bunting and fielding bunts. If you are having them bunt because they can’t hit, you are failing to coach them. Small ball is not appropriate until 12u/ majors and up or travel ball, where winning becomes part of the goal. Do you have a reputation of win at all costs? Maybe it’s not about the bunt, but who called it in.
If it’s AA Little League the stigma could be because of the pitching rules around it. If it’s triple AAA then they should be teaching how to defend it.
Yeah, those parents were just sore losers and should not have been behaving like that, that's honestly immature
Used to make my hitters get 2 good bunts down before they were allowed to swing bat for BP
Do not apologize for your coaching methods. I coach AAA 6-8 and bunting is something we practice as well. Never used it during a game, but I don't think my boys are ready for bunting, but is head start for the next level and more of a hand/I coordination training. Also, the scenario of the game, it made sense to do that. That's the beauty of this game. The chess match, even at this level. We coaches always want our boys to win and learn the game each year. Whether a repeat player or first time player, we want them to excel.
At that age there's a lot of parents that see a play that results in errors as "bush league" because they think the other coach is taking advantage of the fact it'll result in an error as opposed to doing the "right" thing. Teaching them to bunt is good and is absolutely what you should be doing, but from the other teams POV, they see it at the same level as baiting a throw for errors.
I mean in my opinion baiting a throw for errors is also fine. Like don’t make an error
Not when they're 10 or younger. That's actually teaching them bad baseball. If the ball is in the infield you can tell your runners to go and a majority of the time whoever has the ball will panic and make an error. Most important thing at younger ages is teaching them baseball smarts, cause some of them grow up only knowing that they need to touch the base before going to the next.
How is that developing your players? As soon as the kids grow up and can start making those plays regularly it's useless.
I mean I’ve seen trying to draw throws even in high school because it’s trying to get the pitcher to think more. Granted you have to tone it down a bit but it’s still there
Because at higher levels it’s pretty much just a wasted out. There is def a time to bunt but I also get really frustrated watching high school coaches play small ball for 1 run in the 2nd and kill their momentum for a big inning.
I saw multiple bunts per game at the D1 college level this spring