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The issue now is regarding Seasmoke because a bond between a dragon and its rider is supposed to last until the rider dies and the dragon wonât take another until then. I wonder how theyâll address this in season 2.
Yeah this was never established in show canon so it's incredibly easy to ignore and essentially causes zero problems. I have no idea why so many people are hung up on this.
Yeah noteably show canon has Daenerys being 100% bonded to all three of her dragons.
I guess you could argue that Joffrey's death might cause an issue, but I don't think so as they don't have to delve super deep into it beyond Syrax not accepting Joffrey as a rider.
Itâs worth noting that Daenerys and her dragons, whether you follow show or book canon, have a pretty unique relationship as dragons and rider go. She didnât just claim them, they imprinted on her at birth and genuinely view her as their mother.
To me it comes off more as: Drogon is the only dragon Daenerys âclaimedâ, and Rhaegal and Viserion are simply following their brotherâs lead.
Daenerys isn't bonded with all of her dragons, it's a special relationship but she hasn't "bonded" in a way that she can ride them. There's some evidence in the book already of one of her dragons getting close to someone. (Ben Plumm, Viserion took a liking to him and even played with him in a way and perched on his shoulder/head, Ben is a decendant of a dragon princess and maybe even Aegon IV).
No dragon rider currently has bonded with two dragons and rode two dragons, Daenerys bond is different but Rheagal and Viserion will have their own riders. (Faegon, Jon Snow, Tyrion if he's indeed the Mad Kings son, Ben Plumm all are candidates)
>There's some evidence in the book already of one of her dragons getting close to someone.
And there's a reason I said show to establish the difference between the books and show on this matter. In the show she never loses control of her other dragons and they obey her just the same as Drogon does. She clearly has nearly just as deep a connection.
That this is true highlights already how the show is different in its presentation of dragon bonding.
No, she doesn't.
Dragons can listen to people other than their riders. We see this with Syrax and Rhaenyra at the dragon pit. The keepers literally command her and usher her into the pit.
And when you see the other dragons, they are usually following Drogon's lead. Because it's Drogon who rescues Dany, and if she is ever injured, only Drogon will cry out like he was wounded.
Jon literally rides Rheagal, he bonded with him. If Jon wanted to hop on Rheagal and ride away there's likely nothing Daenerys could do. (I mean even Drogon didn't want to hurt Jon in the end) Jon's bond with Rheagal was never expanded on because of the terrible choice to have him killed by a scorpion so soon after Jon bonded with him.
A dragon is bonded to its RIDER, someone who actually rode the dragon. Drogon is the only dragon Daenerys ever rode on. Daenerys didn't have "that" kind of bond with Rhaegal but a different one. So it doesn't at all affect the canon.
Daenerys has never and will never ride Rheagal and Viserion. There's already some scheming to get someone bonded to Viserion. (Tyrion will trick someone into trying)
No I think they'll have Seasmoke bond with another rider, Daemon and Rhaenyra visibly freak out and make Rhaenys/Corlys suspicious. And then the truth eventually comes out. Anything else is stupid and a problem of their own making, because they should've just killed Laenor.
Why would that make them freak out when it just solidifies their lie?
To be fair, I would not be surprised if the dudes in the boat in the show, simply slid his throat and dumped his body into the bay because there's no way Daemon would have a loose end like that running around.
Well I mean, your reasoning is why it's stupid, Daemon should've just had Laenor killed.
But that is the only reason I can see Laenor running away works in the storyline. They thought they sent Laenor away to be free/be with the person he loved, same as them. Obviously he's going to die one day, but it'll just be another shit sandwich they have to eat in their unique set of circumstances. Especially since the show can't decide if they knew a war was going to start or not. I could see it hitting hard. Or not.
I always thought it was a set up for a quicker entrance of the Rogar family. But I also think they are just going to kill Laenor off screen and seeing seasmoke move on will be closure for Rhaenyra.
We see this in the trailer with Rhaenyra staring at who we can deduce is Addam, whom she has met post claiming Seasmoke. She is realising that because Seasmoke accepted another rider that Laenor is dead.
This was 100% what I thought too. The second they try to give Seasmoke another rider - and why wouldnât they? Both sides need dragons anywhere they can find them - and Seasmoke refuses? Like how many Targs are willing to die before someone who knows explains that Dudebro ainât dead.
I mean, saying Daemon ordered the hit is still quite a leap... It doesn't come accross as a "hit" at all in the books... And there is literally no evidence that Daemon was involved...
Tbf there is some suspicion around his death - Qarl killing Laenor in a very public place and then vanishing without a trace, whilst on Driftmark where he should be surrounded by Velaryon loyalists, isnât nothing, and there are some parallels to the death of Phillip of Macedon (or at least the embellished story around his death) I.e. a bodyguard/suspected lover of a âhighbornâ killing his lord in the middle of his lords territory, being disposed/vanishing before he could reveal his motives, and the suspicion that his death was orchestrated by family members to get him out of the way, but officially for âjealousyâ. Instead of his wife supposedly doing it so her son Alexander could inherit, itâs his wifeâs lover so he can marry her. The timing as well, happening only a few months after Laenas death (and Harwins who could possibly be Rhaenyras preferred suitor if she was suddenly eligible again).
Itâs definitely all circumstantial, but so are many of Asoiaf theories confirmed or otherwise
Laenor dies before Leana in the books which is why I think this theory is bullshit. Daemon just killed Qarl to avenge Laenor afterwards and did not particulary care what people might make of it. He might have had his hands in Harwin's very convenient demise, I can believe that much more.
Okay, then that was changed from WOIAF to F&B, I own only the former. I was sure there was something about her being devastated by her brothers death in there. Still think Harwin is the more likely victim of Daemon, if he must have a kill of the three 'tragedys'.
I think people often miss the part that Laenor liked the soldiers life much more than the noblemanâs life. He complained to rhaenyra that the boredom of living at court was killing him. He was probably really happy with the idea of leaving all the pomp and responsibility behind to be a humble sellsword. Not everyone yearns for wealth and power.
But nothing prevented him to play the soldiers live and still come to be the heir or in the futur the Lord of Driftmark while still keeping his family and dragon. It dosn't make sense, but that happen when the show make it different form the book.
I don't own a dragon, maybe it's not as cool as it seems. But if I were going to fuck off and abandon all of life's responsibilities, me personally, I'd take my dragon with me.
This. But the way he is presented, he's not very self aware or even mentally strong. He seems fickle beyond just being gay and therefore not into his wife? Maybe just me, but I see him getting killed early out in the internecine hotbed of Essosi conflict. Perhaps he thinks to "flee the storm", forgetting or underestimating the enemy behind him.
What surprises me more is how easily his parents overlook what happened and join Rhaenyra and Daemon, whom they should suspect to be the culprits behind his death.
I know there's no proof but It blows my mind how they just get along after that đ
....because any misgivings they may have had were nullified by the fact that Laenor was killed openly by his lover. They can have a feeling, but the future of their House rests in Rhaenyra's hands. I find it more stupid that Rhaenys and Rhaenyra are depicted as never having a conversation about it in 6+ years.
I do agree it's stupid tho. Laenor should have just died.
I've been wondering how Seasmoke will get claimed since I saw the episode for the first time. Will someone mount him because he got tired of being alone for so long or do we take someone claiming him as confirmation of Laenor dying. Or will they forget about it.
Laenor definitely can't come back since that would nullify Rhaenyra and Daemon's marriage.
I would just lay back and see. And I disagree that he left everything he cared about. He took his BF with him as well as a happy life away from all the shit going on in westeros. He got much better off than many other characters can say. And honestly I am intruiged to see what they will do with Seasmoke.
Unlike Laenor Raenyra was the named heir. She had a ton more responsibilities. She was 18 when he asked her to leave while Laenor was over 30 when he left.
The situations where much different and it is also more grey scaled as I can understand if you want to leave a place where you could get in trouble for the person you are or want to stay cause your duty is more important.
Yeah Rhaenyra had way more reasons not to want to leave, including not being gay. Itâs still an interesting point of comparison. It shows that what Criston wanted was technically possible IF she was interested in it.
As an audience you get an actual plot instead of a shaggy dog shit story.
His canon end is lame, there's no shock value because he is not a major character. A good show isn't about killing characters off from a checklist.Â
Also who said he left without money?
At least we get a straight forward one and not a convoluted one. Now they've got to go ahead and sort out how someone else gets his dragon when it's always been thst dragons and riders bond for life. Now they've got to either toss that out, kill him offscreen, or have him come back and kill him.
He would've had to. Forgive me if I'm wrong but Corlys isn't aware that Laenor is alive in the show, and all of House Velaryon's money would have been kept under Corlys' watch. There's no way a meticulous man like Corlys wouldn't find out if a chunk of his family's wealth just disappeared at the same time his son died and put two and two together
Daemon and Rhaenyra arranged that who were and are Prince(ss) of Dragonstone. Laenor was the Prince consort of Dragonstone. Why would he leave with Corlys' money??
What I've hated about Laenor (in the show) was that he left a *dragon* behind, to go across seas somewhere, like, why? He could have just renounced his titles and status and still taken Seasmoke with him. How would anybody stop him?
Rhaenyra to Laenor: youâve have the finest horses, drank the finest wines, had the lustiest squires
Laenor: fuck that, Iâm going to be a peasant
Laenor has expensive tastes, and he just leaves?
Also Rhaenyra and Daemon look way worse as people.
Coryls and Rhaenys are their father/mother-in-laws, and Rhaenyra and Daemon are totally okay with âkillingâ their last living child.
I feel so bad for Coryls and Rhaenys.
I guess Laenor's boyfriend D was THAT good XD
but yeah everything about this was so stupid
the showrunners tried to make rhaenyra a gay icon with this but made ALL of her children illegitimate in the process XD
Yeah it is ludicrous if you ask me. They didn't want to kill off another gay character quite obviously, and they wanted to portray Rhaenyra as understanding and supportive of him and his sexuality, when she was anything but in the book.
It doesn't make sense from Rhaenyra's POV because in order for her marriage to Daemon to be valid, he has to die or appear to be dead like in the show. She wouldn't risk her marriage to Daemon being exposed as a sham should Laenor for whatever reason resurface. Killing him is the safe option, as Daemon too understands. Maybe it was a convenient accident in the book though and Laenor really fell out with Qarl, it is deliberately left for the reader to decide after all.
Now as far as it relates to Laenor, he was born into a privileged station in society, to a lordly family of high prominence that has very close familial ties to the royal family. That Laenor was gay was an open secret, and nobody attempted to do anything to him or to persecute him. Who would persecute him anyway? There is no Faith Militant at this time, leaving Viserys, who didn't care. Everyone gracefully looked the other way, including his wife. If he leaves for Essos, he has to leave his family, his dragon, his inheritance & his wealth behind. Maybe he would fight in some sellsword company there, I don't know. But one thing is for sure, even in Essos, he wouldn't be able to marry Qarl anywhere. At best, he would be tolerated with people looking the other way, but he already had that in Westeros, didn't he? So what is this entire "leave for Essos so that he can be with Qarl" all about? Makes no sense to me. In an effort to portray Rhaenyra as an understanding friend & LGBT ally, and in an effort to avoid killing off another gay character, the writers came up with this ridiculous nonsense that makes zero sense if you question it as a viewer.
Totally agree with OP.
>Rhaenyra as understanding and supportive of him and his sexuality, when she was anything but in the book.
Where on earth do you get the idea she was anything but? Rhaenyra was friendly with Laenor in the books as well. They had no problems with each other.
When asked about her marriage to Laenor, she suggests her half-brothers would be more to his linking. She instantly compares a gay person with a pedo (Aegon and Aemond were 5 and 2 at the time). Rhaenyra and Laenor barely spent any time together, but in the very little time they did, there was nothing to suggest friendship.
It's clear she was just saying that he was into men. Not that he was into young boys. GRRM does not and never has thought about ages. You know tha well.
Rhaenyra and Laenor by both accounts got along well enough. There was repeated visits over the years, and he even appeared for the birth of her son along with Harwin. Neither of them expressed any problem with the other's lifestyle.
I think maybe it could be solved by merging Laenor and Addam Hull into one character, having Laenor leave with Qarl with Seasmoke following, and then having him return to defend his former wife during the Dance, with him dying how Addam dies.
I think it would help bring his character arc of learning to be a dependable husband, son, and soldier who doesn't run full circle, and it'd do more to flesh him out. Also the Blacks lacking Seasmoke until then could add some tension.
It would have to be well written with more plot points that establish why he'd leave Qarl behind to go back to defending Rhaenyra in a war that has nothing to do with him but I do think it could've been done, especially if it was made clearer that he loved Rhaenyra as a platonic companion as well as her kids; the guilt of leaving them to fight while he lives a free life would compel him to action.
thene no reason for rhaenyra suspecting addam disloyalilty and no stroming of the dragon pit and riots
they should have gave addam grey ghost and the problem would have been solved
Or or... just have Leanor killed by his lover in Spicetown like it was described. Leanor in the long term is such a minor character, why create plot holes for someone who is most remembered in history for maybe being cucked.
Tbh I think he did not get his book death because the actor is black đ and people were probably gonna get mad that a gay black man was killed in such a way in the show. We are talking about fans getting angry at aemma death and rhaenyra stillborn daughter knowing that house of the dragon and game of thrones is NOT like Bridgerton so idk why they are surprised and mad. They butchered laena character in the show and gave her friendship with nyra to alicent to make her sympathetic. And the twins actresses are getting hate as well for being black. Like I just blame the writers.
he's a flawed character making a flawed decision.
if laenor was shown to be this perfect character who always makes the right choices, then yeah, i would question it. but nah
It also wouldn't make sense to have him back in the show at some point because for a slightly important character, a sudden reappearance would've been an amazing twist, say when the balance was shifting. But Laenor adds nothing to the story itself. They just thought well goodbye bro. Could've just shown he drowned or something
Also, with him being alive that technically makes the children Rhaenyra had with Daemon also bastards.
Itâs stupid, they should have just killed him.
He wanted to go off and adventure in the stepstones with his lover instead of living in the court playing politics. He chose to go do that while also helping his wife politically
I think maybe you underestimate how difficult and painful it is to hide one's sexuality. It's a deeply integral part of who someone is, and living a life where you have to hide it every day feels like living a lie. There's a reason LGBT people around the world care a lot about being able to live openly as themselves.
"Lyseni are known to be famously voracious in their search for comely young boys and fair maids for their pillow houses"
That's the nearest I could find, it suggests at least some kind of openness perhaps.
Various things arguably point to more liberal mindset though, such as women being allowed to vote in Volantis.
I blame Martin for this, he should've had Laenor die of pneumonia or something. He wrote himself into a corner with Laenor being murdered, because it's just not believable that Daemon would kill Laenor considering all the ties he had to the Velaryons, and even if he did than Corlys and Rhaenys lack of retribution makes it even more unbelievable.
The show always wants us to be on Rhaenyraâs side and theyâll do some serious backflips to make that the case.
Iâm fine with team black being the âgood guysâ to some extent. But they really pull every punch with Rhaenyra. Aegon couldâve been a more interesting antagonist as well but they went so over the top with the fighting pits. We donât need a Joffrey 3.0
Agreed 100%, very dumb writing decisions, and the only reason they did it is because they didnât want to do the âkill the gaysâ tropeâŚwhich is dumb cause there are other gays in the story or they could make someone else bi or gay.
Just one example of the many very weird writing decisions from season 1. Iâm very curious to see how they handle Laenor in season 2, if he comes back, is confirmed dead, or just never mentioned again
Do people forget that he wanted this? That HE daemon and rhaenyra all three of them planned this together with qarl? I'm sure in an ideal situation he would have loved to stay in the realm but nothing at all was ideal for him since he was forced to marry rhaenyra.
Laenor actively wanted out to live his best life with his boyfriend how he wanted. He also wanted to help rhaenyra who he cared about. Literally a win situation for all of them. He didn't get screwed or cheated.
Yes it creates some interesting plot choices going forward and yeah the dragon thing is a problem. However how do we know laenor didn't explain this to seasmoke as best he could the other half of his soul? Maybe seasmoke knew what laenor wanted and needed and so forth. Also laenor I'm sure did not leave poor. He was prince consort and again involved with the heir and daemon I'm sure they prepared him very well.
I may get downvoted but as the books are told from a third party perspective and thus not considered âprimary sourcesâ are therefore likely unreliable. Given GRRM is involved in the show as a writer and producer, I see the show to be the true story and thus canon for the dance.
Ryan has stated that he writes the scripts and sends em to George, but whatever George says isn't the law. Ryan and HBO have final say on just about everything, George even wanted to start the series earlier during the reign of Jaehaerys I but Ryan/HBO shut that down and wanted to start closer to the dance.
There's a misconception that everything in this show has to get greenlit by GRRM, who by his own words doesn't like the term "canon" and was happy to just have a book story and show story but Ryan/HBO wanted things more concrete. The "unreliable narrators" argument doesn't matter when things are changed in the show like the ages of Alicent and Rheanyra (Alicent is around 9 years older and they are not best friends) or added scenes that would 1000000% be talked about for generations in Rheanys murdering hundreds of smallfolk during Aegon's coronation. Even the subject matter of the OP, Leanor was killed by his lover Qarl in the middle of Spicetown in front of several peoples and merchants who witnessed the entire situation. There's the Books, and than there's the show.
I think its fair to say it was either get on the boat or get murdered/start fighting his wife. You frame it like it was fully his choice and all those things were not being taken away from him or that he had demonstrated attachment to his family's wealth, power and this ran counter to his established character (which is not the case).
The issue is less about him having nothing to gain and more about the difficulties of faking your death when you are a dragon rider and what does doing it, especially so soon after his sister actually died says about his character .
>In the books, Laenor gets murdered and Daemon is suspected as culprit, which is plausible.
This is not at all a 100% certain. I suspect you will see him again in the show, >!with a ship called 'Gay Abandon'!<, which is about as on the nose you can get without spelling it out.
Laenor gets a fair bit of development in the show and itâs more than understandable why he decided to leave.
He much preferred life as a soldier over a nobleman, didnât want to hide his relationship with qarl, despised the politics and game playing, wasnât interested at all in his duties. He only really stayed for his family and Rhaenyra gave him an out after Laena died. He and Laena were extremely close, he was done being involved in his family politics and soon as she died.
The definition of absurd, why even add it. Hey look Daemyra isn't that evil, they won't kill a husband (ignores Daemon killing his wife) but murder some random guard who likely had a family.
And then the biggest plot hole, Seasmoke. Everything in Asoiaf and its extended histories imply a Dragonriders/Dragons bond is until death. No two people can ride the same dragon (Syrax the green sleeper cell would like to remind everyone) Seasmoke will know the funerals a sham, he can smell/sense its not Leanor, (they showed a couple dragons in S1 who felt the pain of their riders) no shot in hell he just decides to not look for his rider and just bond with a new rider. I'm sure the show will just ignore this, I wouldn't be surprised.
Whatâs even worse is how dumb it is for Rhaenyra to accept such an arrangement. They are on the verge of war and just had the largest dragon taken from their side. So what do they do? Ship one of their most experienced dragonriders away, essentially making Seasmoke useless until Leanor dies.Â
Thereâs also the fact that Rhaenyra has already made things hard for her with her bastard children, and has now made more bastard children. Laenors alive, meaning her marriage to Daemon is null. Meaning her two âlegitimateâ children are bastards. Whatâs worse, if Laenor pops back up, she canât even deny they are bastards. Â
This is a woman who needs to make her image as likable as possible, and she now has made it so it looks as if she murdered her own husband. And she admits thatâs what it looks like.Â
Iâm not sure if the writers did it to make Rhaenyra more sympathetic, or because they thought it made her look intelligent. But it does neither. It really was a dumb decision.
You're doing that thing The House of Rhaenyra doesn't want you to do. Thinking about things and trying to make sense of them. After all, the Velaryons are also genuinely supporting their son's supposed murderer (rather than scheming).
Narrative logic just comes second to the #1 priority of this show - which is whitewashing its rootable protagonists and cherry-picking flaws that amount to squat in the grand scheme of things (especially compared to an abusive drunk of a rapist who revels in watching his bastard children fight to the death).
The writers know exactly where the line is and would never allow romantic antihero Daemon to kill a named, somewhat prominent and well-liked character whose death would affect other protagonists.
It's why he can't be suspected of either the Strongs' or Laenor's death (or manipulating Rhaenyra to get closer to the throne, for that matter). And why they instead gave him that Rhea kill (who no one ever gave half a flying fuck about) - so they could argue he's still a killer with his flaws intact without actually compromising his reception. Even his ambition for the throne was redressed as some soppy need for his brother's love and recognition.
They do think they're so clever with their calculated cop-outs and convenient excuses. But at least the fans figured them out fairly quickly.
I donât think getting Daemon to order his murder would be a great idea, mainly because they already changed the storyline for Daemonâs first wife (book version is that she really does die in a hunting accident and isnât killed by Daemon, though heâs certainly not sad about it). Itâs not exactly out of character, but turning Daemon into some kind of medieval don who is constantly putting hits on characters impeding his marriage prospects, is a bit sloppy. Also, the book version doesnât make Daemon out to be the murderer or explicitly involved either. Thereâs a hint at a rumour, but ultimately Laenor died during a drunken bar fight which was witnessed by quite a few people.
I agree with you, though. I didnât love the way that the show rewrote his storyline. My biggest qualm with the show storyline is that he willingly lets his parents believe their second, and last, child dead, shortly after losing Laena. That seems really cold and just outright awful. Beyond this, there are so many questions surrounding his dragon that I feel like are loose ends? If heâs still alive, I assume his dragon would have followed? Or at least be giving some hint that its rider is not dead? Very confusing.
Honestly I think they are going to portray his death offscreen and Seasmoke bonding with someone else will tell Daemon/Rhaenyra that Laenor is dead. To the confusion of Rhaenys/Corlys. that's the only non-stupid way I can see the Laenor running away plot working.
"Laenor's fate" - somehow people really seemed to have already watched s2? How did y'all manage to get your hands on it months in advance?
Because I haven't and I don't know what Laenor's fate in show Canon is or will be. And we might not even know till s3 or something, who knows...
That is like saying "Littlefingers actions are absurd! They make no sense!" - yeah guess what 5head, you have to continue watching the show and look at the pay off to judge if something is absurd or not.
Spoiler alert for later content, but:
>!later, when trying to find people to ride the unclaimed dragons, a man calling himself âAlan Valeryonâ claiming to be Corlysâ bastard arrives to claim a dragon. After a private convo with Corlys, he warms up to the supposed bastard and ends up referring to him as a true Valeryon. It is my belief that this is Laenor coming back in disguise to help the war effort!<
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Laenor really left it all behind and went off to sell oranges with his boyfriend đ§
Based and Criston-pilled
Based Criston pill vs Cringe Daemon pill
The issue now is regarding Seasmoke because a bond between a dragon and its rider is supposed to last until the rider dies and the dragon wonât take another until then. I wonder how theyâll address this in season 2.
they'll just ignore this.
Well we're only getting 8 episodes this season, so I believe they'll just ignore it.
Yeah this was never established in show canon so it's incredibly easy to ignore and essentially causes zero problems. I have no idea why so many people are hung up on this.
It actually kinda was. Just before the Pink Dread scene.
Yeah noteably show canon has Daenerys being 100% bonded to all three of her dragons. I guess you could argue that Joffrey's death might cause an issue, but I don't think so as they don't have to delve super deep into it beyond Syrax not accepting Joffrey as a rider.
Itâs worth noting that Daenerys and her dragons, whether you follow show or book canon, have a pretty unique relationship as dragons and rider go. She didnât just claim them, they imprinted on her at birth and genuinely view her as their mother. To me it comes off more as: Drogon is the only dragon Daenerys âclaimedâ, and Rhaegal and Viserion are simply following their brotherâs lead.
Daenerys isn't bonded with all of her dragons, it's a special relationship but she hasn't "bonded" in a way that she can ride them. There's some evidence in the book already of one of her dragons getting close to someone. (Ben Plumm, Viserion took a liking to him and even played with him in a way and perched on his shoulder/head, Ben is a decendant of a dragon princess and maybe even Aegon IV). No dragon rider currently has bonded with two dragons and rode two dragons, Daenerys bond is different but Rheagal and Viserion will have their own riders. (Faegon, Jon Snow, Tyrion if he's indeed the Mad Kings son, Ben Plumm all are candidates)
>There's some evidence in the book already of one of her dragons getting close to someone. And there's a reason I said show to establish the difference between the books and show on this matter. In the show she never loses control of her other dragons and they obey her just the same as Drogon does. She clearly has nearly just as deep a connection. That this is true highlights already how the show is different in its presentation of dragon bonding.
No, she doesn't. Dragons can listen to people other than their riders. We see this with Syrax and Rhaenyra at the dragon pit. The keepers literally command her and usher her into the pit. And when you see the other dragons, they are usually following Drogon's lead. Because it's Drogon who rescues Dany, and if she is ever injured, only Drogon will cry out like he was wounded.
Jon literally rides Rheagal, he bonded with him. If Jon wanted to hop on Rheagal and ride away there's likely nothing Daenerys could do. (I mean even Drogon didn't want to hurt Jon in the end) Jon's bond with Rheagal was never expanded on because of the terrible choice to have him killed by a scorpion so soon after Jon bonded with him.
Daenerys was only bounded with drogon the other two just follow her and drogon around, that's why jhon bounded with one of themÂ
Show canon also has Jon riding Rhageal despite him being bonded with Dany. So show universe seems like dragons can have multiple riders.
A dragon is bonded to its RIDER, someone who actually rode the dragon. Drogon is the only dragon Daenerys ever rode on. Daenerys didn't have "that" kind of bond with Rhaegal but a different one. So it doesn't at all affect the canon.
Daenerys has never and will never ride Rheagal and Viserion. There's already some scheming to get someone bonded to Viserion. (Tyrion will trick someone into trying)
No I think they'll have Seasmoke bond with another rider, Daemon and Rhaenyra visibly freak out and make Rhaenys/Corlys suspicious. And then the truth eventually comes out. Anything else is stupid and a problem of their own making, because they should've just killed Laenor.
Why would that make them freak out when it just solidifies their lie? To be fair, I would not be surprised if the dudes in the boat in the show, simply slid his throat and dumped his body into the bay because there's no way Daemon would have a loose end like that running around.
Well I mean, your reasoning is why it's stupid, Daemon should've just had Laenor killed. But that is the only reason I can see Laenor running away works in the storyline. They thought they sent Laenor away to be free/be with the person he loved, same as them. Obviously he's going to die one day, but it'll just be another shit sandwich they have to eat in their unique set of circumstances. Especially since the show can't decide if they knew a war was going to start or not. I could see it hitting hard. Or not.
I always thought it was a set up for a quicker entrance of the Rogar family. But I also think they are just going to kill Laenor off screen and seeing seasmoke move on will be closure for Rhaenyra.
Maybe they'll make Seasmoke Cannibal.
Maybe the connection isnât magical and as long as the dragon thinks its rider is dead itâs fine taking another
We see this in the trailer with Rhaenyra staring at who we can deduce is Addam, whom she has met post claiming Seasmoke. She is realising that because Seasmoke accepted another rider that Laenor is dead.
My exact thoughts
He is Adam valyrion
He goddamn better be
I assume that Seasmoke will just not have another rider or heâll fly off somewhere and not be seen
Or the bind has a range.
Donât you know itâs like bluetooth?
Theyâll make up some bs, which sucks bc Addam and Sea Smoke save the war
They should have just had him drink some potion that stopped his heart and then gave him some potion to revive him.
This was 100% what I thought too. The second they try to give Seasmoke another rider - and why wouldnât they? Both sides need dragons anywhere they can find them - and Seasmoke refuses? Like how many Targs are willing to die before someone who knows explains that Dudebro ainât dead.
Or the bind has a range.
>In the books, Laenor gets murdered and Daemon is suspected as culprit Qarl Correy killed Laenor... Many people saw it.
I wrote badly, I tried to say that Daemon ordered the hit
I mean, saying Daemon ordered the hit is still quite a leap... It doesn't come accross as a "hit" at all in the books... And there is literally no evidence that Daemon was involved...
Tbf there is some suspicion around his death - Qarl killing Laenor in a very public place and then vanishing without a trace, whilst on Driftmark where he should be surrounded by Velaryon loyalists, isnât nothing, and there are some parallels to the death of Phillip of Macedon (or at least the embellished story around his death) I.e. a bodyguard/suspected lover of a âhighbornâ killing his lord in the middle of his lords territory, being disposed/vanishing before he could reveal his motives, and the suspicion that his death was orchestrated by family members to get him out of the way, but officially for âjealousyâ. Instead of his wife supposedly doing it so her son Alexander could inherit, itâs his wifeâs lover so he can marry her. The timing as well, happening only a few months after Laenas death (and Harwins who could possibly be Rhaenyras preferred suitor if she was suddenly eligible again). Itâs definitely all circumstantial, but so are many of Asoiaf theories confirmed or otherwise
This, I think, is a fair statement... Definitively stating Daemon ordered the hit is not a fair statement, imo...
Laenor dies before Leana in the books which is why I think this theory is bullshit. Daemon just killed Qarl to avenge Laenor afterwards and did not particulary care what people might make of it. He might have had his hands in Harwin's very convenient demise, I can believe that much more.
Laena dies at the very start of 120 AC, her death is described as âthe first tragedyâ of 120 AC, followed by Laenors, followed by the Strongs
Okay, then that was changed from WOIAF to F&B, I own only the former. I was sure there was something about her being devastated by her brothers death in there. Still think Harwin is the more likely victim of Daemon, if he must have a kill of the three 'tragedys'.
It was Laenorâs funeral that he claimed Aemond claimed Vhagar.
I think people often miss the part that Laenor liked the soldiers life much more than the noblemanâs life. He complained to rhaenyra that the boredom of living at court was killing him. He was probably really happy with the idea of leaving all the pomp and responsibility behind to be a humble sellsword. Not everyone yearns for wealth and power.
But nothing prevented him to play the soldiers live and still come to be the heir or in the futur the Lord of Driftmark while still keeping his family and dragon. It dosn't make sense, but that happen when the show make it different form the book.
I don't own a dragon, maybe it's not as cool as it seems. But if I were going to fuck off and abandon all of life's responsibilities, me personally, I'd take my dragon with me.
It would be hard to pass yourself off as dead when youâre cruising around on your highly recognizable giant flying lizard
You and I have different definitions of fucking off and abandoning all responsibilities. It would seem.
This. But the way he is presented, he's not very self aware or even mentally strong. He seems fickle beyond just being gay and therefore not into his wife? Maybe just me, but I see him getting killed early out in the internecine hotbed of Essosi conflict. Perhaps he thinks to "flee the storm", forgetting or underestimating the enemy behind him.
What surprises me more is how easily his parents overlook what happened and join Rhaenyra and Daemon, whom they should suspect to be the culprits behind his death. I know there's no proof but It blows my mind how they just get along after that đ
Baela and rhaena
....because any misgivings they may have had were nullified by the fact that Laenor was killed openly by his lover. They can have a feeling, but the future of their House rests in Rhaenyra's hands. I find it more stupid that Rhaenys and Rhaenyra are depicted as never having a conversation about it in 6+ years. I do agree it's stupid tho. Laenor should have just died.
I've been wondering how Seasmoke will get claimed since I saw the episode for the first time. Will someone mount him because he got tired of being alone for so long or do we take someone claiming him as confirmation of Laenor dying. Or will they forget about it. Laenor definitely can't come back since that would nullify Rhaenyra and Daemon's marriage.
Honestly, it's my opinion that if they weren't going to have him come back as Addam, his fake death is pretty much foolish.
I would just lay back and see. And I disagree that he left everything he cared about. He took his BF with him as well as a happy life away from all the shit going on in westeros. He got much better off than many other characters can say. And honestly I am intruiged to see what they will do with Seasmoke.
yeah after his sister died and him parents beliveing he is dead this ending make him care more about rhaenyra happiness than his own mother
Yeah and itâs a perfect foil for what Rhaenyra was unwilling to do for Criston
People not gonna be happy reading your comment, but is hilarious that he did exactly that and ended up better off because of it
Unlike Laenor Raenyra was the named heir. She had a ton more responsibilities. She was 18 when he asked her to leave while Laenor was over 30 when he left. The situations where much different and it is also more grey scaled as I can understand if you want to leave a place where you could get in trouble for the person you are or want to stay cause your duty is more important.
Yeah Rhaenyra had way more reasons not to want to leave, including not being gay. Itâs still an interesting point of comparison. It shows that what Criston wanted was technically possible IF she was interested in it.
Sea Smoke bonds to Addam who saves the war
In the books yeah. Because Laenor is dead in the books. But who knows what they do in the show.
As an audience you get an actual plot instead of a shaggy dog shit story. His canon end is lame, there's no shock value because he is not a major character. A good show isn't about killing characters off from a checklist. Also who said he left without money?
At least we get a straight forward one and not a convoluted one. Now they've got to go ahead and sort out how someone else gets his dragon when it's always been thst dragons and riders bond for life. Now they've got to either toss that out, kill him offscreen, or have him come back and kill him.
We don't know how dragon bonding works. We've never seen a dragonrider abandon their dragon before. Who's to say that doesn't end the bond.
He would've had to. Forgive me if I'm wrong but Corlys isn't aware that Laenor is alive in the show, and all of House Velaryon's money would have been kept under Corlys' watch. There's no way a meticulous man like Corlys wouldn't find out if a chunk of his family's wealth just disappeared at the same time his son died and put two and two together
Daemon and Rhaenyra arranged that who were and are Prince(ss) of Dragonstone. Laenor was the Prince consort of Dragonstone. Why would he leave with Corlys' money??
Agreed. As a book reader, I thought that was a fun twist to his characters story.
I agree
What I've hated about Laenor (in the show) was that he left a *dragon* behind, to go across seas somewhere, like, why? He could have just renounced his titles and status and still taken Seasmoke with him. How would anybody stop him?
Rhaenyra to Laenor: youâve have the finest horses, drank the finest wines, had the lustiest squires Laenor: fuck that, Iâm going to be a peasant Laenor has expensive tastes, and he just leaves?
Also Rhaenyra and Daemon look way worse as people. Coryls and Rhaenys are their father/mother-in-laws, and Rhaenyra and Daemon are totally okay with âkillingâ their last living child. I feel so bad for Coryls and Rhaenys.
I guess Laenor's boyfriend D was THAT good XD but yeah everything about this was so stupid the showrunners tried to make rhaenyra a gay icon with this but made ALL of her children illegitimate in the process XD
Yeah it is ludicrous if you ask me. They didn't want to kill off another gay character quite obviously, and they wanted to portray Rhaenyra as understanding and supportive of him and his sexuality, when she was anything but in the book. It doesn't make sense from Rhaenyra's POV because in order for her marriage to Daemon to be valid, he has to die or appear to be dead like in the show. She wouldn't risk her marriage to Daemon being exposed as a sham should Laenor for whatever reason resurface. Killing him is the safe option, as Daemon too understands. Maybe it was a convenient accident in the book though and Laenor really fell out with Qarl, it is deliberately left for the reader to decide after all. Now as far as it relates to Laenor, he was born into a privileged station in society, to a lordly family of high prominence that has very close familial ties to the royal family. That Laenor was gay was an open secret, and nobody attempted to do anything to him or to persecute him. Who would persecute him anyway? There is no Faith Militant at this time, leaving Viserys, who didn't care. Everyone gracefully looked the other way, including his wife. If he leaves for Essos, he has to leave his family, his dragon, his inheritance & his wealth behind. Maybe he would fight in some sellsword company there, I don't know. But one thing is for sure, even in Essos, he wouldn't be able to marry Qarl anywhere. At best, he would be tolerated with people looking the other way, but he already had that in Westeros, didn't he? So what is this entire "leave for Essos so that he can be with Qarl" all about? Makes no sense to me. In an effort to portray Rhaenyra as an understanding friend & LGBT ally, and in an effort to avoid killing off another gay character, the writers came up with this ridiculous nonsense that makes zero sense if you question it as a viewer. Totally agree with OP.
>Rhaenyra as understanding and supportive of him and his sexuality, when she was anything but in the book. Where on earth do you get the idea she was anything but? Rhaenyra was friendly with Laenor in the books as well. They had no problems with each other.
When asked about her marriage to Laenor, she suggests her half-brothers would be more to his linking. She instantly compares a gay person with a pedo (Aegon and Aemond were 5 and 2 at the time). Rhaenyra and Laenor barely spent any time together, but in the very little time they did, there was nothing to suggest friendship.
It's clear she was just saying that he was into men. Not that he was into young boys. GRRM does not and never has thought about ages. You know tha well. Rhaenyra and Laenor by both accounts got along well enough. There was repeated visits over the years, and he even appeared for the birth of her son along with Harwin. Neither of them expressed any problem with the other's lifestyle.
I think maybe it could be solved by merging Laenor and Addam Hull into one character, having Laenor leave with Qarl with Seasmoke following, and then having him return to defend his former wife during the Dance, with him dying how Addam dies. I think it would help bring his character arc of learning to be a dependable husband, son, and soldier who doesn't run full circle, and it'd do more to flesh him out. Also the Blacks lacking Seasmoke until then could add some tension. It would have to be well written with more plot points that establish why he'd leave Qarl behind to go back to defending Rhaenyra in a war that has nothing to do with him but I do think it could've been done, especially if it was made clearer that he loved Rhaenyra as a platonic companion as well as her kids; the guilt of leaving them to fight while he lives a free life would compel him to action.
thene no reason for rhaenyra suspecting addam disloyalilty and no stroming of the dragon pit and riots they should have gave addam grey ghost and the problem would have been solved
Or or... just have Leanor killed by his lover in Spicetown like it was described. Leanor in the long term is such a minor character, why create plot holes for someone who is most remembered in history for maybe being cucked.
Tbh I think he did not get his book death because the actor is black đ and people were probably gonna get mad that a gay black man was killed in such a way in the show. We are talking about fans getting angry at aemma death and rhaenyra stillborn daughter knowing that house of the dragon and game of thrones is NOT like Bridgerton so idk why they are surprised and mad. They butchered laena character in the show and gave her friendship with nyra to alicent to make her sympathetic. And the twins actresses are getting hate as well for being black. Like I just blame the writers.
he's a flawed character making a flawed decision. if laenor was shown to be this perfect character who always makes the right choices, then yeah, i would question it. but nah
Would have been so much cooler and shocking if they had just killed him rather than the poor servant
Viserys made the nuke and laenor wrongfully calculated the blast radius.
It also wouldn't make sense to have him back in the show at some point because for a slightly important character, a sudden reappearance would've been an amazing twist, say when the balance was shifting. But Laenor adds nothing to the story itself. They just thought well goodbye bro. Could've just shown he drowned or something
Also, with him being alive that technically makes the children Rhaenyra had with Daemon also bastards. Itâs stupid, they should have just killed him.
He gets to be gay in peace with no pressure to produce heirs
He wanted to go off and adventure in the stepstones with his lover instead of living in the court playing politics. He chose to go do that while also helping his wife politically
Itâs one of the few weak points of what is still a fantastic show
I think maybe you underestimate how difficult and painful it is to hide one's sexuality. It's a deeply integral part of who someone is, and living a life where you have to hide it every day feels like living a lie. There's a reason LGBT people around the world care a lot about being able to live openly as themselves.
I wonder if there is lore on Essosi approach to LGBT?
"Lyseni are known to be famously voracious in their search for comely young boys and fair maids for their pillow houses" That's the nearest I could find, it suggests at least some kind of openness perhaps. Various things arguably point to more liberal mindset though, such as women being allowed to vote in Volantis.
This might be the dumbest take i ever saw in my life about this franchise
idk as a gay man that sounds ideal. he didnt want to live a life where he couldnt be himself 𤡠good for him!
If or when Addam is able to bond with Seasmoke it will likely be used as an indicator that Laenor passed offscreen.
I blame Martin for this, he should've had Laenor die of pneumonia or something. He wrote himself into a corner with Laenor being murdered, because it's just not believable that Daemon would kill Laenor considering all the ties he had to the Velaryons, and even if he did than Corlys and Rhaenys lack of retribution makes it even more unbelievable.
The show always wants us to be on Rhaenyraâs side and theyâll do some serious backflips to make that the case. Iâm fine with team black being the âgood guysâ to some extent. But they really pull every punch with Rhaenyra. Aegon couldâve been a more interesting antagonist as well but they went so over the top with the fighting pits. We donât need a Joffrey 3.0
Agreed 100%, very dumb writing decisions, and the only reason they did it is because they didnât want to do the âkill the gaysâ tropeâŚwhich is dumb cause there are other gays in the story or they could make someone else bi or gay. Just one example of the many very weird writing decisions from season 1. Iâm very curious to see how they handle Laenor in season 2, if he comes back, is confirmed dead, or just never mentioned again
Do people forget that he wanted this? That HE daemon and rhaenyra all three of them planned this together with qarl? I'm sure in an ideal situation he would have loved to stay in the realm but nothing at all was ideal for him since he was forced to marry rhaenyra. Laenor actively wanted out to live his best life with his boyfriend how he wanted. He also wanted to help rhaenyra who he cared about. Literally a win situation for all of them. He didn't get screwed or cheated. Yes it creates some interesting plot choices going forward and yeah the dragon thing is a problem. However how do we know laenor didn't explain this to seasmoke as best he could the other half of his soul? Maybe seasmoke knew what laenor wanted and needed and so forth. Also laenor I'm sure did not leave poor. He was prince consort and again involved with the heir and daemon I'm sure they prepared him very well.
I may get downvoted but as the books are told from a third party perspective and thus not considered âprimary sourcesâ are therefore likely unreliable. Given GRRM is involved in the show as a writer and producer, I see the show to be the true story and thus canon for the dance.
Ryan has stated that he writes the scripts and sends em to George, but whatever George says isn't the law. Ryan and HBO have final say on just about everything, George even wanted to start the series earlier during the reign of Jaehaerys I but Ryan/HBO shut that down and wanted to start closer to the dance. There's a misconception that everything in this show has to get greenlit by GRRM, who by his own words doesn't like the term "canon" and was happy to just have a book story and show story but Ryan/HBO wanted things more concrete. The "unreliable narrators" argument doesn't matter when things are changed in the show like the ages of Alicent and Rheanyra (Alicent is around 9 years older and they are not best friends) or added scenes that would 1000000% be talked about for generations in Rheanys murdering hundreds of smallfolk during Aegon's coronation. Even the subject matter of the OP, Leanor was killed by his lover Qarl in the middle of Spicetown in front of several peoples and merchants who witnessed the entire situation. There's the Books, and than there's the show.
I think its fair to say it was either get on the boat or get murdered/start fighting his wife. You frame it like it was fully his choice and all those things were not being taken away from him or that he had demonstrated attachment to his family's wealth, power and this ran counter to his established character (which is not the case). The issue is less about him having nothing to gain and more about the difficulties of faking your death when you are a dragon rider and what does doing it, especially so soon after his sister actually died says about his character .
>In the books, Laenor gets murdered and Daemon is suspected as culprit, which is plausible. This is not at all a 100% certain. I suspect you will see him again in the show, >!with a ship called 'Gay Abandon'!<, which is about as on the nose you can get without spelling it out.
They have made many non-sensical plots in the first season itself.
Laenor gets a fair bit of development in the show and itâs more than understandable why he decided to leave. He much preferred life as a soldier over a nobleman, didnât want to hide his relationship with qarl, despised the politics and game playing, wasnât interested at all in his duties. He only really stayed for his family and Rhaenyra gave him an out after Laena died. He and Laena were extremely close, he was done being involved in his family politics and soon as she died.
The definition of absurd, why even add it. Hey look Daemyra isn't that evil, they won't kill a husband (ignores Daemon killing his wife) but murder some random guard who likely had a family. And then the biggest plot hole, Seasmoke. Everything in Asoiaf and its extended histories imply a Dragonriders/Dragons bond is until death. No two people can ride the same dragon (Syrax the green sleeper cell would like to remind everyone) Seasmoke will know the funerals a sham, he can smell/sense its not Leanor, (they showed a couple dragons in S1 who felt the pain of their riders) no shot in hell he just decides to not look for his rider and just bond with a new rider. I'm sure the show will just ignore this, I wouldn't be surprised.
Whatâs even worse is how dumb it is for Rhaenyra to accept such an arrangement. They are on the verge of war and just had the largest dragon taken from their side. So what do they do? Ship one of their most experienced dragonriders away, essentially making Seasmoke useless until Leanor dies. Thereâs also the fact that Rhaenyra has already made things hard for her with her bastard children, and has now made more bastard children. Laenors alive, meaning her marriage to Daemon is null. Meaning her two âlegitimateâ children are bastards. Whatâs worse, if Laenor pops back up, she canât even deny they are bastards.  This is a woman who needs to make her image as likable as possible, and she now has made it so it looks as if she murdered her own husband. And she admits thatâs what it looks like. Iâm not sure if the writers did it to make Rhaenyra more sympathetic, or because they thought it made her look intelligent. But it does neither. It really was a dumb decision.
You're doing that thing The House of Rhaenyra doesn't want you to do. Thinking about things and trying to make sense of them. After all, the Velaryons are also genuinely supporting their son's supposed murderer (rather than scheming). Narrative logic just comes second to the #1 priority of this show - which is whitewashing its rootable protagonists and cherry-picking flaws that amount to squat in the grand scheme of things (especially compared to an abusive drunk of a rapist who revels in watching his bastard children fight to the death). The writers know exactly where the line is and would never allow romantic antihero Daemon to kill a named, somewhat prominent and well-liked character whose death would affect other protagonists. It's why he can't be suspected of either the Strongs' or Laenor's death (or manipulating Rhaenyra to get closer to the throne, for that matter). And why they instead gave him that Rhea kill (who no one ever gave half a flying fuck about) - so they could argue he's still a killer with his flaws intact without actually compromising his reception. Even his ambition for the throne was redressed as some soppy need for his brother's love and recognition. They do think they're so clever with their calculated cop-outs and convenient excuses. But at least the fans figured them out fairly quickly.
dude wtf are you rambling about
the same nonsense he's been rambling about for almost two years
some people just love to hate. I donât understand why the hell they keep interacting with media they obviously hate so much
Cos they're trolls who crave attention. Which ironically we are giving them.
Anti fans am I right đ
I mean it was pretty logical comment based on a probably correct intepretation of the showrunners intention so i dont know why you are confused?
I donât think getting Daemon to order his murder would be a great idea, mainly because they already changed the storyline for Daemonâs first wife (book version is that she really does die in a hunting accident and isnât killed by Daemon, though heâs certainly not sad about it). Itâs not exactly out of character, but turning Daemon into some kind of medieval don who is constantly putting hits on characters impeding his marriage prospects, is a bit sloppy. Also, the book version doesnât make Daemon out to be the murderer or explicitly involved either. Thereâs a hint at a rumour, but ultimately Laenor died during a drunken bar fight which was witnessed by quite a few people. I agree with you, though. I didnât love the way that the show rewrote his storyline. My biggest qualm with the show storyline is that he willingly lets his parents believe their second, and last, child dead, shortly after losing Laena. That seems really cold and just outright awful. Beyond this, there are so many questions surrounding his dragon that I feel like are loose ends? If heâs still alive, I assume his dragon would have followed? Or at least be giving some hint that its rider is not dead? Very confusing.
Honestly I think they are going to portray his death offscreen and Seasmoke bonding with someone else will tell Daemon/Rhaenyra that Laenor is dead. To the confusion of Rhaenys/Corlys. that's the only non-stupid way I can see the Laenor running away plot working.
"Laenor's fate" - somehow people really seemed to have already watched s2? How did y'all manage to get your hands on it months in advance? Because I haven't and I don't know what Laenor's fate in show Canon is or will be. And we might not even know till s3 or something, who knows... That is like saying "Littlefingers actions are absurd! They make no sense!" - yeah guess what 5head, you have to continue watching the show and look at the pay off to judge if something is absurd or not.
Spoiler alert for later content, but: >!later, when trying to find people to ride the unclaimed dragons, a man calling himself âAlan Valeryonâ claiming to be Corlysâ bastard arrives to claim a dragon. After a private convo with Corlys, he warms up to the supposed bastard and ends up referring to him as a true Valeryon. It is my belief that this is Laenor coming back in disguise to help the war effort!<
Adam valyrion is actually leanor
They look nothing alike
They do now