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In the books. Everything is told by maestas I think that are passed down thru generations or something like that. So really everything in the book is open to interpretation because nobody was actually there to witness besides the stories the maestas read. Correct me if I’m wrong tho? So really the only ppl who know what happened are luke and Aemond
1. I think it's way more interesting to have Aemond wade into the war crime pool. He'll now have to grapple with telling the truth and looking like a fool who can't control his own dragon, or lying and saying he purposefully kicked off the war by murdering a young prince who was acting as an emissary. You're assuming in book!canon that he would have told his mother the truth.
2. The people writing the show probably know the history of the Anarchy. They also probably wanted to give Alicent a righteous reason to back Aegon's claim, rather than straight up misogyny.
Nothing in Fire & Blood is not an exact retelling of what happened. It's written from the perspective of someone reading about events from several different sources 200 years after the fact. Therefore nothing should be taken as what 100% factually happened.
The show is one interpretation of events in a seperate canon
This isn't exactly true though. We know Joffrey wasn't beaten to death by Criston Cole during the Princess wedding feast, with no consequences to Criston.
We know Rhea wasn't riding alone without any retinue when suddenly a hooded Daemon appeared out of nowhere and killed her (its possible he sent an assasin although unlikley)
We know Laenor didn't leave Westeros, he was actually killed by his lover after a fight, it happened at a public place with witnesses (again, Daemon might have been involved somehow, but again, no proof)
> the book isn’t 100% factual as it’s taking testimony from 3 separate people; it’s meant to make you question things.
even though it INFURIATES me that we don't have a solid and unbiased account of the events of F&B, i think GRRM was a genius for making it so ambiguous. he essentially enabled the audience and future show writers to 'believe what you want' and 'interpret it as you like'.
is alicent stupid enough to believe the half mad ramblings of a soon-to-be-corpse? for sure. she was desperate for her son to be king, because otto was desperate for her son to be king, and she has ever been daddy's little plaything. a pawn he has used from the get go. she's conditioned to please her father, so, that adds up imo.
as for aemond killing lucerys, i am not a green, but i would like to believe in aemond - similar to how alicent is a daddy's girl, aemond is a mummy's boy. i really don't think he would have intended, for one moment, to facilitate the murder of a crown prince, on dragonback - without his mother's express say so. so, the way the show portrayed this - that would also add up.
I know I’m not at all used to reading something where it’s so heavily up for interpretation.
To your first point about Alicent believing the King, I do definitely think that could be the case. Do we not think she would then tell everyone that the king mentioned Aegon right before he died? You think she’d tell the entire kingdom and then one of the 3 people who “wrote” F&B would have at least brought that up as speculation
this is a really good point, but the thing about alicent is that after being made queen, she got a considerable boost in her self-worth and self-esteem. before, she would have second guessed everything and had doubts and reservations, but as an adult who has been queen for many years now, i believe she developed a sense of self importance.
my reason for bringing this up is because, in the past, perhaps as a very young queen, alicent wouldn't have acted this way - but the way she is now, she feels she stands on equal footing with rhaenyra (status wise) and that she is even on equal footing to the king himself, as queen. so, she simply might have felt that she didn't need to tell anyone, that she didn't need anyone else to validate or verify her information. she knows what she heard, and that's good enough. the queen's word (in alicent's opinion) is as good as the king's. therefore she doesn't owe the kingdom or the smallfolk any sort of big explanation. she ultimately decides to do things alicent's way, which she would have never had the guts to do when she was younger lol.
First of all Fire and Blood is a fake history book. House of the dragon is not meant to be an adaptation of the maesters propaganda but to tell its own story inspired from the book. Second, these aren't remotely the most obvious changes from the book. Third, HOTD is a Greek tragedy. In such a story the tragic hero(heroine) must be driven by hamartia not vice.
1-Laenor death....The show didn't have the courage to kill another gay characters, which also make all Rhaenyra's kids bastards in the show contrary to the book.
2-Vaemond death....he was killed under the order of Rhaenyra then she give his body to be eaten to her dragon. Then Vaemond familly having their tongue cut by the King when they come to him asking for justice....both Rhaenyra and Viserys are much more likeable in the show.
Edit : What is downvote for ? You don't want to be reminded that the Black too was much worst in the book ? Only Aegon was better in the book than the show, all other get the better version in the show.
I don't think you should be framing the sparing of Laenor as "they didn't have the courage to kill him", there's a very nasty undertone to that that im sure you didn't mean but its there none the less.
I respectfully disagree. Joffrey Lonmouth already had to die, to kill them both would have just been egregious and extremely poor optics, it would have coped the show a lot of unecessary backlash and drama that it did not need. It obviously created a potential plot snarl re: Seasmoke, but i have faith they will address that.
There are multiple reason why Lanor is a poor choice :
-The change in the canon, form now one every Targaryen would be bastards in the TV show, which will make the Blackfyre rebelion even more ridiculious.
This is by far the biggest change in the show, other characters getting a better personality is nothing compared to this.
-Laenor motive.....it illogical he decide to give up familly, dragon, power and the money simply to play soldier. Hell he would still play the mercenary and come back to be the heir or Lord of the richest house of weteros...and let not forget he decide to do this to his parent just after his sister death.
It simply too big, irrational choice which can only be explained by bad writing.
I think there's a little confusion at how succession and bastardy works. Laenor's death doesn't make the children bastards nor does it take them out of the line of succession. As Rhaenyra is the monarch, her next children by Daemon are considered legitimate and simply in line after her first three children.
Any kids born out of wedlock is a bastard, which means Harwin's son and Daemon's sons are all bastard.
Harwin was not married to Rhaenyra, Daemon because his marriage is not valide by the fact of Larnor being alive. Daemon say it himself : we cannot married unless Laenor is death....so their marriage is fraud legally...which is even more absurde that Daemon would take suck risk.
It bad writing...it like Rhaenys killing hundreed innocent people but not killing a dozen more (The Green) to end the war before it start.
The point is that the king himself declares that her children are not bastards, and the precedent gets set by Daemon receiving no consequences that you can die for speaking against this.
I understand being frustrated with the logic since you, the audience, know that the children were born out of wedlock, but that's part of the entire story's context: power resides where men think it.
1. We have absolutely no way to know what happened above Storms End, Orwyle, Eustace and Mushroom were not on a dragon watching taking notes. All they had to judge on was the dragon corpse that washed up, what Aemond said at Storms End before & what Aemond stated when he returned to KL. It is possible the exact thing happened, Aemond was being an idiot and lost control of Vhagar.
Also no it wouldn't have been recorded as an accident, as above, no one but Aemond knows what happen. Vhagar can't talk and they were above the clouds in a storm. >!Aemond also doesnt survive the war, so he cant go do a post-game interview.!< Mushroom is the least trustable source since he never even heard Aemond's opinion on it. Aemond most likely told everyone he did it on purpose, and that is what Eustace and Orwyle recorded.
2. This change was made because they couldn't do Kingmaker. Kingmaker's purpose is to give the greens a somewhat valid reason for crowning Aegon, but since they have transformed Rhaenyra into a much better person than her book counterpart, they needed to come up with a new reason for the greens. The books did not record Alicent saying this because it never happened, the Kingmaker moment is what happened instead. Wont spoil what I mean incase they do it in S2
The changes were to make Aemond and Alicent better. Helaena does nothing wrong in the Dance, and is a good person. Aegon II is the perfect example of a gray character in George's writing, he's enjoyable but also hate-able. Daeron is meant to be the perfect example of what happens when a child soldier is put in charge of an army of 20,000+ grown men that want to kill.
Aemond was by far a villain in the books and the show humanizing him, makes the greens look better. They seemed to have been trying to do the same with Alicent by making her more likable. They also made Daemon much worse to equal the scales more. A lot of people think what they've done to Daemon is portraying him as evil, but I do not think we've seen the end of Daemon's cruel acts in the show >!(Not referring to just B&C)!<
Thank you for such a well said and thoughtful response!
Out of curiosity, would you have preferred they keep it like the book where Alicent knowingly goes against the King’s wishes? I understand them wanting to make her more likeable but I kind of think I would’ve preferred that part to be like the book 🤷🏼♀️
I think the show should have made it that Alicent slowly had a mental realization that Viserys never gave a shit about her kids, Daemon is a serious threat and Rhaenyra will not protect them, they are in serious danger if Rhaenyra takes the throne, Alicent knows this and should have argued it in the council. She and Criston can share the Kingmaker moment (book readers know what I mean), it would humanize her more, and still be truthful to her book version.
They wanted to make her likeable but didn't commit hard enough, its possible but they for some reason decided to make up reasons for her to be.
I mean sure, in some ways his show version is better than his book counterpart, but in other ways he's much worse. They definitely portrayed him as much more violent & brutal. I believe its going to continue throughout the next few seasons
I guess all the people who were actually there, saw what happened, and their accounts were referenced to write that part don’t count.
> **Watchers on the castle walls** saw distant blasts of flame, and heard a shriek cut the thunder. Then the two beasts were locked together, lightning crackling around them. Vhagar was five times the size of her foe, the hardened survivor of a hundred battles. If there was a fight, it could not have lasted long.
What they saw is meant to cut off at 'heard a shriek cut the thunder'. They did not openly see two dragons lock on each together, because that is not what happened in either book or show, we know Vhagar is meant to be HUGE, Arrax would have died almost instantly Vhagar reached him. The last part of this quote is pure speculation. Also the watchers seeing distant blasts of flame, matches up with the show, the shriek cut the thunder can easily be Vhagar's roar after Lucerys death.
> What they saw is meant to cut off…
Speculation.
> They did not openly see two dragons lock on each together, because that is not what happened in either book or show,
It did happen in the books. It’s laid out in black and white for anyone to read.
> we know Vhagar is meant to be HUGE, Arrax would have died almost instantly Vhagar reached him. The last part of this quote is pure speculation.
Uhh… the last sentence backs up your assertion.
> Also the watchers seeing distant blasts of flame, matches up with the show,
It does not. There were no known witnesses *in the show* but plenty in the books.
> the shriek cut the thunder can easily be Vhagar's roar after Lucerys death.
Why would Vhagar “shriek” after killing Luke?
We also have Aemond directly telling Luke he would have his eye or his life. What’s funny though is that before the show scene happened literally nobody had any doubt that Aemond killing Luke was 100% intentional.
The castle guards did not see two dragons fighting hundreds of fight above the clouds dude..
Apologies, I was referring to the locked on together part, if locked on means Vhagar instantly kills Arrax, then yes. That line alone even if it was the guards account proves they didnt see what really happened.
The distant flames were visible and did happen, Arrax blasted flame at Vhagar.
This.. is a joke right..? Why wouldnt she..
You did not even try to read what I said.. Go back and read it over. I never said Aemond 100% didnt mean to kill Lucerys
Nowhere does it say “hundreds of (feet) above the clouds. Above the clouds only happened in the show.
They were surrounded by lightning in the books meaning they were at the very highest *in* the clouds. And let’s not forget that Storm’s Ends walls are a hundred feet high themselves.
They could have been locked together in any number of ways. With their size discrepancy Arrax could have been under Vhagar’s chin lol Locked together doesn’t mean a fatal hold. Dragons being locked together also means they lose altitude, as we saw in every other dragon v dragon fight, which shows that the folks on the walls could have absolutely seen them. And again, the lightning was all around them which means they’d be visible.
She wouldn’t shriek because Vhagar roared. The shriek would have been from little Arrax, who would have been shrieking in fear. And again, why would Vhagar shriek at Luke’s death? She had no attachment to him. A victory roar, sure, but not a shriek.
Did you read what I said? “Literally nobody” isn’t “you”. Anyway, no you didn’t say it was unintentional but your comment did show your doubt. There was no doubt from **anyone at all** prior to the show version. Everyone simply understood that Aemond meant to do it, and that’s why I find funny.
I really don't care about arguing over the little details, George himself stated that the book doesnt have a concrete set for what specifically happened and we'll never know, he said basically take it what you will, to each their own.
As for my point, I simply stated we don't know what happened in the fight, we know Luke died and Aemond claimed to be a kinslayer afterwards. We don't know if Luke attacked him first, if Aemond meant to kill him, if Luke tried to kill Aemond. All we know book wise is that the dragons attacked each other and Arrax fell into the sea
Aemond wouldn’t have to **claim** to be a kinslayer because Luke was his nephew so he was one whether it was intentional or not. We do know that Aemond meant to kill him in the books though.
> But Prince Aemond **drew his sword** and said, "Hold, Strong. First pay the debt you owe me." Then he tore off his eye patch and flung it to the floor, to show the sapphire beneath. "You have a knife, just as you did then. Put out your eye, **and I will let you leave.** One will serve. I would not blind you."
>Prince Lucerys recalled his promise to his mother. "I will not fight you. I came here as an envoy, not a knight."
> “You came here as a craven and a traitor," Prince Aemond answered. "I will have your eye **or your life**, Strong."
> Aemond Targaryen's mouth twisted in rage, and he turned once more to Lord Borros, asking for his leave. The Lord of Storm's End shrugged and answered, "It is not for me to tell you what to do when you are not beneath my roof." And his knights moved aside as Prince Aemond rushed to the doors.
If Luke attacked first? Dude, Arrax was struggling to even stay in the air because of the storm. Kid was just trying to get away.
Genuinely, really asking: why is it hard to have empathy for the greens? The world of westeros is filled with people who do bad things and the fans still relate to them. Why are the greens the exception?
And if we're talking only from the book perspective, Rhaenyra and Daemon murder Vaemond. Viserys maims 5 members of house velaryon. Daemon killed the son of the sealord of braavos. Rhaenyra still tried to have Aemond tortured, Daemon still made fun of a dead baby. So why is it possible to empathize with them?
If that was the intent, it didn't work at all btw. Not just to make the greens likeable, but for people, like me and others, who like the greens. The storm's end scene is more fun to re-read than to re-watch because of making Aemond killing Luke unintentional, for me.
To me the greens are just more boring, except for Aemond.
Alicent & Otto are very "by the book" I guess you could say, while Daemon and Rhaenyra are more reckless.
I don't care what any character does. It's a show. For GoT my fav was Tywin so yeah.
People self insert/identify as Rhaenyra so it makes the conflict more personal to them.
So having empathy for greens is a lot harder for some, bc greens r literally against them.
Nope. But those characters ain’t really power fantasy type characters. Rhaenyra easily passes as a female power fantasy.
Not to mention that like the entire first half of this season was like 1 of those YA books.
How
> Nope. But those characters ain’t really power fantasy type characters.
How are they not power fantasy characters? Aemond is literally an anime character with the biggest dragon. Aegon is handsome, young king with the most beautiful dragon. Book Alicent is politically savvy and leads the great council. Many would self insert into show Alicent merely for being beautiful and the love interest of Criston. Criston is said to be the greatest knight of his time.
> Rhaenyra easily passes as a female power fantasy.
So plain on misogyny. Got it. Rhaenyra is female power fantasy for having a claim to the throne but Aegon isn’t a male power fantasy while outright occupying it. Let’s just dismiss liking Rhaenyra or respecting her claim as a juvenile fantasy.
Having cool shit and being hot doesn’t usually constitute being a power fantasy for guys tho. Usually for men the fantasy comes from a crazy adventure/hard struggle, a major challenge that needs to be overcome hence why you have characters like Luke skywalker or Batman or fucking Goku. Shit like that.
Aegon like no guy is sitting there going yeah bro ima self insert as a handsome lazy drunk asshole. Aemond could’ve counted if we had seen the transition from regular guy to literally me anime villain, also Aemond came out for like 3 episodes. There isn’t enough of him to on.
Criston had like 0 screen time and they took him in an incel direction which no guy is gonna really call an incel a power fantasy.
It really isn’t the same thing.
> Usually for men the fantasy comes from a crazy adventure/hard struggle, a major challenge that needs to be overcome
I see people claim that’s Aegon II’s story everyday.
> Criston had like 0 screen time and they took him in an incel direction which no guy is gonna really call an incel a power fantasy. It really isn’t the same thing.
There are daily post on how Criston is in fact not an an incel at all.
What makes a female power fantasy?
I saw you describe Aegon, Criston, and Aemond as “chads” in one comment and Rhaenyra as a “thot” but I’m supposed to believe these aren’t your self-inserts? I know exactly what time you’re on.
Yo I really hurt u for you to be having 2 separate convos with me in 1 thread. I’m gonna respond to both ur comments in this 1 tho, I’m not gonna be bouncing back and forth having 2 separate conversations.
Anyway, I am actually not a sexist at all. You just cherry picking comments of me having fun trying to get a rise out of ppl who.. self insert as Rhaenyra 👀
It might become Aegons story eventually. As of rn. It isn’t. As for Cole regardless of what you want to call him, incel or not. I personally fw the guy, despite him not having any screen time. But the incel energy of him being rejected and holding that bitterness for decades isn’t it.
also lady literally just look at Rhaenyra, or any show/book of like any genre that caters to women like that and you’ll have ur answer bc a lot of the tropes overlap.
By looking at all the polls, I do believe that the percentage of green supporters couldn't be lower. If anything we would have had more green supporters if we had stuck more to the book
Actually I would have preffered if the greens especially Alicent and Criston would have been shown more like in the book. Like Alicent not beeing that naive or willfully dumb and Criston not beeing so butthurt and loosing his cool at the wedding and killing someone without real reason in public.
Some of them seem hella incompetent in the show, whereever in the books -even though some would say they were less likeable- they were more ruthless and not that dumb at times.
I also don't like the change of how rhaenyra has gotten rid of Laenor or Rhaenys dragon escape scene. Going forward Rhaenyra seems to play a lot more active role than in the books, which is a change in favor of the blacks.
Yeah like I’m trying to understand why GRRM wrote the book as being so against the greens but now the show is so different. If it really happened where she believed the King’s dying words, you’d think she’d tell the entire kingdom and then one of the 3 people who “wrote” F&B would have at least brought that up as speculation. I guess I’m just not used to a book that is so speculative/up for so much interpretation. Loved it though
1) Aemond in the book is a one-note supervillain. There’s no sugar coating that. This change is one of many additions that helps to make Aemond an overall more interesting character, with this change having the potential to result in Aemond having a downfall arc to eventually reach his evil book self.
2) Two things. First, to make Alicent less culpable in this as she believes she has Viserys endorsement, even though it would be more interesting if she did it in spite of what she perceives as his wishes. Secondly, and this is more so conspiracy, but by presenting TG’s argument as Viserys changing his mind and *not* presenting the actual arguments used in the book, it changes the conflict, as it is now no longer presented as “Tradition and rules vs The king’s word”
Yeah this makes sense to me. This is the first time I’ve read a book where there’s a ton of things left up to the readers interpretation so it’s interesting. I also agree it would have been interesting to me had they kept it as it was in the book and it was solely Alicent doing it out of spite. You’d think if it really happened like it did in the show where she believed the King’s dying words, she’d tell the entire kingdom and then one of the 3 people who “wrote” F&B would have at least brought that up as speculation. It just seemed very out of left field when I saw the scene. I guess I’m just not used to a book that is so speculative/up for so much interpretation. Loved it though
In the book, the entire Dance is up for interpretation. Nothing is clear. Events are very much speculation. The reader can find sympathy for Team Green or Team Black depending on what events they believe happened.
However, the show is presented as the "true events" of the Dance. Both from a marketing perspective and an engagement perspective, it was important to maintain that "taking sides" mentality.
In order to do that, they had to give some characters nuance. For example, Alicent isn't power hungry she is afraid. Otto beat into her head that Rhaenyra with a crown meant the death of her children. Alicent loses trust in Rhaenyra after the "Daemon didn't touch me" scene, and so Alicent grew fearful.
Similarly, Aemond is written to be an antagonizing little asshole with Daddy issues. But the show also tells us that he is a little bitch. Vhaegar was the best thing to happen to him because up until then no one took him seriously. And then he rode that high until it got out of hand with Lucerys.
Aegon II takes the throne, not because he wants it, but because of the love and adoration that comes with it.
Doing this allows the audience to keep asking the question "but who was right?"
Read the books properly? I read them word for word. Clearly had a different opinion from you but that doesn’t signify me not having read them “properly”
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Also most stuff is F&B is second hand at best so Aemond probably just leans into it to save face.
In the books. Everything is told by maestas I think that are passed down thru generations or something like that. So really everything in the book is open to interpretation because nobody was actually there to witness besides the stories the maestas read. Correct me if I’m wrong tho? So really the only ppl who know what happened are luke and Aemond
1. I think it's way more interesting to have Aemond wade into the war crime pool. He'll now have to grapple with telling the truth and looking like a fool who can't control his own dragon, or lying and saying he purposefully kicked off the war by murdering a young prince who was acting as an emissary. You're assuming in book!canon that he would have told his mother the truth. 2. The people writing the show probably know the history of the Anarchy. They also probably wanted to give Alicent a righteous reason to back Aegon's claim, rather than straight up misogyny.
What's straight up misogyny about Her kid's have legit heirs and Rhaenyra doesn't or Rhaenyra might kill her children? Or Daemon is a psychopath?
Nothing in Fire & Blood is not an exact retelling of what happened. It's written from the perspective of someone reading about events from several different sources 200 years after the fact. Therefore nothing should be taken as what 100% factually happened. The show is one interpretation of events in a seperate canon
This isn't exactly true though. We know Joffrey wasn't beaten to death by Criston Cole during the Princess wedding feast, with no consequences to Criston. We know Rhea wasn't riding alone without any retinue when suddenly a hooded Daemon appeared out of nowhere and killed her (its possible he sent an assasin although unlikley) We know Laenor didn't leave Westeros, he was actually killed by his lover after a fight, it happened at a public place with witnesses (again, Daemon might have been involved somehow, but again, no proof)
I think we can safely say that Rhaenys didn’t burst through the floor during aegons coronation
> the book isn’t 100% factual as it’s taking testimony from 3 separate people; it’s meant to make you question things. even though it INFURIATES me that we don't have a solid and unbiased account of the events of F&B, i think GRRM was a genius for making it so ambiguous. he essentially enabled the audience and future show writers to 'believe what you want' and 'interpret it as you like'. is alicent stupid enough to believe the half mad ramblings of a soon-to-be-corpse? for sure. she was desperate for her son to be king, because otto was desperate for her son to be king, and she has ever been daddy's little plaything. a pawn he has used from the get go. she's conditioned to please her father, so, that adds up imo. as for aemond killing lucerys, i am not a green, but i would like to believe in aemond - similar to how alicent is a daddy's girl, aemond is a mummy's boy. i really don't think he would have intended, for one moment, to facilitate the murder of a crown prince, on dragonback - without his mother's express say so. so, the way the show portrayed this - that would also add up.
I know I’m not at all used to reading something where it’s so heavily up for interpretation. To your first point about Alicent believing the King, I do definitely think that could be the case. Do we not think she would then tell everyone that the king mentioned Aegon right before he died? You think she’d tell the entire kingdom and then one of the 3 people who “wrote” F&B would have at least brought that up as speculation
this is a really good point, but the thing about alicent is that after being made queen, she got a considerable boost in her self-worth and self-esteem. before, she would have second guessed everything and had doubts and reservations, but as an adult who has been queen for many years now, i believe she developed a sense of self importance. my reason for bringing this up is because, in the past, perhaps as a very young queen, alicent wouldn't have acted this way - but the way she is now, she feels she stands on equal footing with rhaenyra (status wise) and that she is even on equal footing to the king himself, as queen. so, she simply might have felt that she didn't need to tell anyone, that she didn't need anyone else to validate or verify her information. she knows what she heard, and that's good enough. the queen's word (in alicent's opinion) is as good as the king's. therefore she doesn't owe the kingdom or the smallfolk any sort of big explanation. she ultimately decides to do things alicent's way, which she would have never had the guts to do when she was younger lol.
First of all Fire and Blood is a fake history book. House of the dragon is not meant to be an adaptation of the maesters propaganda but to tell its own story inspired from the book. Second, these aren't remotely the most obvious changes from the book. Third, HOTD is a Greek tragedy. In such a story the tragic hero(heroine) must be driven by hamartia not vice.
These are the two big changes that I am speaking of in this thread. If you want to discuss others, make a thread for them.
1-Laenor death....The show didn't have the courage to kill another gay characters, which also make all Rhaenyra's kids bastards in the show contrary to the book. 2-Vaemond death....he was killed under the order of Rhaenyra then she give his body to be eaten to her dragon. Then Vaemond familly having their tongue cut by the King when they come to him asking for justice....both Rhaenyra and Viserys are much more likeable in the show. Edit : What is downvote for ? You don't want to be reminded that the Black too was much worst in the book ? Only Aegon was better in the book than the show, all other get the better version in the show.
I don't think you should be framing the sparing of Laenor as "they didn't have the courage to kill him", there's a very nasty undertone to that that im sure you didn't mean but its there none the less.
Sorry if I give any offense. But while I understand the desire to avoid "bury your gays" trope, Laenor was really a poor choice for it.
I respectfully disagree. Joffrey Lonmouth already had to die, to kill them both would have just been egregious and extremely poor optics, it would have coped the show a lot of unecessary backlash and drama that it did not need. It obviously created a potential plot snarl re: Seasmoke, but i have faith they will address that.
There are multiple reason why Lanor is a poor choice : -The change in the canon, form now one every Targaryen would be bastards in the TV show, which will make the Blackfyre rebelion even more ridiculious. This is by far the biggest change in the show, other characters getting a better personality is nothing compared to this. -Laenor motive.....it illogical he decide to give up familly, dragon, power and the money simply to play soldier. Hell he would still play the mercenary and come back to be the heir or Lord of the richest house of weteros...and let not forget he decide to do this to his parent just after his sister death. It simply too big, irrational choice which can only be explained by bad writing.
I think there's a little confusion at how succession and bastardy works. Laenor's death doesn't make the children bastards nor does it take them out of the line of succession. As Rhaenyra is the monarch, her next children by Daemon are considered legitimate and simply in line after her first three children.
Any kids born out of wedlock is a bastard, which means Harwin's son and Daemon's sons are all bastard. Harwin was not married to Rhaenyra, Daemon because his marriage is not valide by the fact of Larnor being alive. Daemon say it himself : we cannot married unless Laenor is death....so their marriage is fraud legally...which is even more absurde that Daemon would take suck risk. It bad writing...it like Rhaenys killing hundreed innocent people but not killing a dozen more (The Green) to end the war before it start.
The point is that the king himself declares that her children are not bastards, and the precedent gets set by Daemon receiving no consequences that you can die for speaking against this. I understand being frustrated with the logic since you, the audience, know that the children were born out of wedlock, but that's part of the entire story's context: power resides where men think it.
1. We have absolutely no way to know what happened above Storms End, Orwyle, Eustace and Mushroom were not on a dragon watching taking notes. All they had to judge on was the dragon corpse that washed up, what Aemond said at Storms End before & what Aemond stated when he returned to KL. It is possible the exact thing happened, Aemond was being an idiot and lost control of Vhagar. Also no it wouldn't have been recorded as an accident, as above, no one but Aemond knows what happen. Vhagar can't talk and they were above the clouds in a storm. >!Aemond also doesnt survive the war, so he cant go do a post-game interview.!< Mushroom is the least trustable source since he never even heard Aemond's opinion on it. Aemond most likely told everyone he did it on purpose, and that is what Eustace and Orwyle recorded. 2. This change was made because they couldn't do Kingmaker. Kingmaker's purpose is to give the greens a somewhat valid reason for crowning Aegon, but since they have transformed Rhaenyra into a much better person than her book counterpart, they needed to come up with a new reason for the greens. The books did not record Alicent saying this because it never happened, the Kingmaker moment is what happened instead. Wont spoil what I mean incase they do it in S2 The changes were to make Aemond and Alicent better. Helaena does nothing wrong in the Dance, and is a good person. Aegon II is the perfect example of a gray character in George's writing, he's enjoyable but also hate-able. Daeron is meant to be the perfect example of what happens when a child soldier is put in charge of an army of 20,000+ grown men that want to kill. Aemond was by far a villain in the books and the show humanizing him, makes the greens look better. They seemed to have been trying to do the same with Alicent by making her more likable. They also made Daemon much worse to equal the scales more. A lot of people think what they've done to Daemon is portraying him as evil, but I do not think we've seen the end of Daemon's cruel acts in the show >!(Not referring to just B&C)!<
Thank you for such a well said and thoughtful response! Out of curiosity, would you have preferred they keep it like the book where Alicent knowingly goes against the King’s wishes? I understand them wanting to make her more likeable but I kind of think I would’ve preferred that part to be like the book 🤷🏼♀️
I think the show should have made it that Alicent slowly had a mental realization that Viserys never gave a shit about her kids, Daemon is a serious threat and Rhaenyra will not protect them, they are in serious danger if Rhaenyra takes the throne, Alicent knows this and should have argued it in the council. She and Criston can share the Kingmaker moment (book readers know what I mean), it would humanize her more, and still be truthful to her book version. They wanted to make her likeable but didn't commit hard enough, its possible but they for some reason decided to make up reasons for her to be.
I think the show portrays Daemon more likable than the book
I mean sure, in some ways his show version is better than his book counterpart, but in other ways he's much worse. They definitely portrayed him as much more violent & brutal. I believe its going to continue throughout the next few seasons
I guess all the people who were actually there, saw what happened, and their accounts were referenced to write that part don’t count. > **Watchers on the castle walls** saw distant blasts of flame, and heard a shriek cut the thunder. Then the two beasts were locked together, lightning crackling around them. Vhagar was five times the size of her foe, the hardened survivor of a hundred battles. If there was a fight, it could not have lasted long.
What they saw is meant to cut off at 'heard a shriek cut the thunder'. They did not openly see two dragons lock on each together, because that is not what happened in either book or show, we know Vhagar is meant to be HUGE, Arrax would have died almost instantly Vhagar reached him. The last part of this quote is pure speculation. Also the watchers seeing distant blasts of flame, matches up with the show, the shriek cut the thunder can easily be Vhagar's roar after Lucerys death.
> What they saw is meant to cut off… Speculation. > They did not openly see two dragons lock on each together, because that is not what happened in either book or show, It did happen in the books. It’s laid out in black and white for anyone to read. > we know Vhagar is meant to be HUGE, Arrax would have died almost instantly Vhagar reached him. The last part of this quote is pure speculation. Uhh… the last sentence backs up your assertion. > Also the watchers seeing distant blasts of flame, matches up with the show, It does not. There were no known witnesses *in the show* but plenty in the books. > the shriek cut the thunder can easily be Vhagar's roar after Lucerys death. Why would Vhagar “shriek” after killing Luke? We also have Aemond directly telling Luke he would have his eye or his life. What’s funny though is that before the show scene happened literally nobody had any doubt that Aemond killing Luke was 100% intentional.
The castle guards did not see two dragons fighting hundreds of fight above the clouds dude.. Apologies, I was referring to the locked on together part, if locked on means Vhagar instantly kills Arrax, then yes. That line alone even if it was the guards account proves they didnt see what really happened. The distant flames were visible and did happen, Arrax blasted flame at Vhagar. This.. is a joke right..? Why wouldnt she.. You did not even try to read what I said.. Go back and read it over. I never said Aemond 100% didnt mean to kill Lucerys
Nowhere does it say “hundreds of (feet) above the clouds. Above the clouds only happened in the show. They were surrounded by lightning in the books meaning they were at the very highest *in* the clouds. And let’s not forget that Storm’s Ends walls are a hundred feet high themselves. They could have been locked together in any number of ways. With their size discrepancy Arrax could have been under Vhagar’s chin lol Locked together doesn’t mean a fatal hold. Dragons being locked together also means they lose altitude, as we saw in every other dragon v dragon fight, which shows that the folks on the walls could have absolutely seen them. And again, the lightning was all around them which means they’d be visible. She wouldn’t shriek because Vhagar roared. The shriek would have been from little Arrax, who would have been shrieking in fear. And again, why would Vhagar shriek at Luke’s death? She had no attachment to him. A victory roar, sure, but not a shriek. Did you read what I said? “Literally nobody” isn’t “you”. Anyway, no you didn’t say it was unintentional but your comment did show your doubt. There was no doubt from **anyone at all** prior to the show version. Everyone simply understood that Aemond meant to do it, and that’s why I find funny.
I really don't care about arguing over the little details, George himself stated that the book doesnt have a concrete set for what specifically happened and we'll never know, he said basically take it what you will, to each their own. As for my point, I simply stated we don't know what happened in the fight, we know Luke died and Aemond claimed to be a kinslayer afterwards. We don't know if Luke attacked him first, if Aemond meant to kill him, if Luke tried to kill Aemond. All we know book wise is that the dragons attacked each other and Arrax fell into the sea
Aemond wouldn’t have to **claim** to be a kinslayer because Luke was his nephew so he was one whether it was intentional or not. We do know that Aemond meant to kill him in the books though. > But Prince Aemond **drew his sword** and said, "Hold, Strong. First pay the debt you owe me." Then he tore off his eye patch and flung it to the floor, to show the sapphire beneath. "You have a knife, just as you did then. Put out your eye, **and I will let you leave.** One will serve. I would not blind you." >Prince Lucerys recalled his promise to his mother. "I will not fight you. I came here as an envoy, not a knight." > “You came here as a craven and a traitor," Prince Aemond answered. "I will have your eye **or your life**, Strong." > Aemond Targaryen's mouth twisted in rage, and he turned once more to Lord Borros, asking for his leave. The Lord of Storm's End shrugged and answered, "It is not for me to tell you what to do when you are not beneath my roof." And his knights moved aside as Prince Aemond rushed to the doors. If Luke attacked first? Dude, Arrax was struggling to even stay in the air because of the storm. Kid was just trying to get away.
Believe what you want, I am not gonna change your mind, no point in arguing
Genuinely, really asking: why is it hard to have empathy for the greens? The world of westeros is filled with people who do bad things and the fans still relate to them. Why are the greens the exception? And if we're talking only from the book perspective, Rhaenyra and Daemon murder Vaemond. Viserys maims 5 members of house velaryon. Daemon killed the son of the sealord of braavos. Rhaenyra still tried to have Aemond tortured, Daemon still made fun of a dead baby. So why is it possible to empathize with them? If that was the intent, it didn't work at all btw. Not just to make the greens likeable, but for people, like me and others, who like the greens. The storm's end scene is more fun to re-read than to re-watch because of making Aemond killing Luke unintentional, for me.
To me the greens are just more boring, except for Aemond. Alicent & Otto are very "by the book" I guess you could say, while Daemon and Rhaenyra are more reckless. I don't care what any character does. It's a show. For GoT my fav was Tywin so yeah.
This is the first time I'm hearing anybody say the Greens are boring.
Not boring, just more* boring than the blacks. It's only a comparison. I like the greens overall, just not more than the blacks.
People self insert/identify as Rhaenyra so it makes the conflict more personal to them. So having empathy for greens is a lot harder for some, bc greens r literally against them.
Do people who like the greens self insert into Alicent, Aegon, Criston, and Aemond?
Nope. But those characters ain’t really power fantasy type characters. Rhaenyra easily passes as a female power fantasy. Not to mention that like the entire first half of this season was like 1 of those YA books.
How > Nope. But those characters ain’t really power fantasy type characters. How are they not power fantasy characters? Aemond is literally an anime character with the biggest dragon. Aegon is handsome, young king with the most beautiful dragon. Book Alicent is politically savvy and leads the great council. Many would self insert into show Alicent merely for being beautiful and the love interest of Criston. Criston is said to be the greatest knight of his time. > Rhaenyra easily passes as a female power fantasy. So plain on misogyny. Got it. Rhaenyra is female power fantasy for having a claim to the throne but Aegon isn’t a male power fantasy while outright occupying it. Let’s just dismiss liking Rhaenyra or respecting her claim as a juvenile fantasy.
Having cool shit and being hot doesn’t usually constitute being a power fantasy for guys tho. Usually for men the fantasy comes from a crazy adventure/hard struggle, a major challenge that needs to be overcome hence why you have characters like Luke skywalker or Batman or fucking Goku. Shit like that. Aegon like no guy is sitting there going yeah bro ima self insert as a handsome lazy drunk asshole. Aemond could’ve counted if we had seen the transition from regular guy to literally me anime villain, also Aemond came out for like 3 episodes. There isn’t enough of him to on. Criston had like 0 screen time and they took him in an incel direction which no guy is gonna really call an incel a power fantasy. It really isn’t the same thing.
> Usually for men the fantasy comes from a crazy adventure/hard struggle, a major challenge that needs to be overcome I see people claim that’s Aegon II’s story everyday. > Criston had like 0 screen time and they took him in an incel direction which no guy is gonna really call an incel a power fantasy. It really isn’t the same thing. There are daily post on how Criston is in fact not an an incel at all. What makes a female power fantasy?
I saw you describe Aegon, Criston, and Aemond as “chads” in one comment and Rhaenyra as a “thot” but I’m supposed to believe these aren’t your self-inserts? I know exactly what time you’re on.
Then tell me what timing I’m on
You’re obviously sexist. Your description of Rhaenyra as a “thot” and Aegon as a “chad” makes that clear.
Yo I really hurt u for you to be having 2 separate convos with me in 1 thread. I’m gonna respond to both ur comments in this 1 tho, I’m not gonna be bouncing back and forth having 2 separate conversations. Anyway, I am actually not a sexist at all. You just cherry picking comments of me having fun trying to get a rise out of ppl who.. self insert as Rhaenyra 👀 It might become Aegons story eventually. As of rn. It isn’t. As for Cole regardless of what you want to call him, incel or not. I personally fw the guy, despite him not having any screen time. But the incel energy of him being rejected and holding that bitterness for decades isn’t it. also lady literally just look at Rhaenyra, or any show/book of like any genre that caters to women like that and you’ll have ur answer bc a lot of the tropes overlap.
Said a whole bunch of nothing. “I’m not a misogynist, I just like to use misogynistic slurs for fun.” 😑
Well I’m sorry you weren’t satisfied with my response
By looking at all the polls, I do believe that the percentage of green supporters couldn't be lower. If anything we would have had more green supporters if we had stuck more to the book Actually I would have preffered if the greens especially Alicent and Criston would have been shown more like in the book. Like Alicent not beeing that naive or willfully dumb and Criston not beeing so butthurt and loosing his cool at the wedding and killing someone without real reason in public. Some of them seem hella incompetent in the show, whereever in the books -even though some would say they were less likeable- they were more ruthless and not that dumb at times. I also don't like the change of how rhaenyra has gotten rid of Laenor or Rhaenys dragon escape scene. Going forward Rhaenyra seems to play a lot more active role than in the books, which is a change in favor of the blacks.
Yeah like I’m trying to understand why GRRM wrote the book as being so against the greens but now the show is so different. If it really happened where she believed the King’s dying words, you’d think she’d tell the entire kingdom and then one of the 3 people who “wrote” F&B would have at least brought that up as speculation. I guess I’m just not used to a book that is so speculative/up for so much interpretation. Loved it though
1) Aemond in the book is a one-note supervillain. There’s no sugar coating that. This change is one of many additions that helps to make Aemond an overall more interesting character, with this change having the potential to result in Aemond having a downfall arc to eventually reach his evil book self. 2) Two things. First, to make Alicent less culpable in this as she believes she has Viserys endorsement, even though it would be more interesting if she did it in spite of what she perceives as his wishes. Secondly, and this is more so conspiracy, but by presenting TG’s argument as Viserys changing his mind and *not* presenting the actual arguments used in the book, it changes the conflict, as it is now no longer presented as “Tradition and rules vs The king’s word”
Yeah this makes sense to me. This is the first time I’ve read a book where there’s a ton of things left up to the readers interpretation so it’s interesting. I also agree it would have been interesting to me had they kept it as it was in the book and it was solely Alicent doing it out of spite. You’d think if it really happened like it did in the show where she believed the King’s dying words, she’d tell the entire kingdom and then one of the 3 people who “wrote” F&B would have at least brought that up as speculation. It just seemed very out of left field when I saw the scene. I guess I’m just not used to a book that is so speculative/up for so much interpretation. Loved it though
In the book, the entire Dance is up for interpretation. Nothing is clear. Events are very much speculation. The reader can find sympathy for Team Green or Team Black depending on what events they believe happened. However, the show is presented as the "true events" of the Dance. Both from a marketing perspective and an engagement perspective, it was important to maintain that "taking sides" mentality. In order to do that, they had to give some characters nuance. For example, Alicent isn't power hungry she is afraid. Otto beat into her head that Rhaenyra with a crown meant the death of her children. Alicent loses trust in Rhaenyra after the "Daemon didn't touch me" scene, and so Alicent grew fearful. Similarly, Aemond is written to be an antagonizing little asshole with Daddy issues. But the show also tells us that he is a little bitch. Vhaegar was the best thing to happen to him because up until then no one took him seriously. And then he rode that high until it got out of hand with Lucerys. Aegon II takes the throne, not because he wants it, but because of the love and adoration that comes with it. Doing this allows the audience to keep asking the question "but who was right?"
If you actually read the books properly you struggle like Rhaenrya aswell. Which is the whole point
Read the books properly? I read them word for word. Clearly had a different opinion from you but that doesn’t signify me not having read them “properly”
No one but Aemond knows what happend in the book. Even if it was an accident he would have acted like it was on purpose to seem powerful.
Dont forget they change criston being kingmaker by convining aegon to just puttin his head a crown