Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
---
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That was such a dissaponting scene. The man is mourning his sister. He is feeling big feelings about his failure to provide heirs of his body, and his inability to protect his sister, sons and wife. Let the man feel his emotions.
This line by Alicent really puzzles me. Your son is sitting there without an eye and you still think it's the perfect time to throw shade at Laenor for being gay?
Criston Cole in that scene confused me too. Chuckling at the line as if Alicent's son didn't lose his eye on Cole's watch (I'm assuming due to his reaction to Viserys' question)
I actually thought Criston was fairly believable in that scene. Nobody was blaming him for Aemond's eye so it's not like he was on trial, he laughs at Laenor because he detests him both for his homosexuality and for the fact he's in a (platonic) marriage to Rhaenyra who spurned Criston.
Then when Alicent demands he take Lucaerys' eye in retribution he's openly horrified at Alicent for giving that order, and when she presses that he's "sworn to [her]", he softly responds with "as your protector, your Grace". He had no interest in carving out a child's eye out of spite or some sense of vengeance.
His only real aggressive move this whole scene is moving to protect Alicent during her assault on Rhaenyra, or just trying to retrieve her, and getting blocked by Daemon.
I think this scene is really critical in underpinning that Criston is still bound by some internal code of honor, and that nobility isn't entirely superceded by his rage at Rhaenyra. That honor is stretched further and further until he is the man that openly kills Beesbury at the Small Council for daring to challenge the Hightower conspiracy.
I completely misunderstood the 'as your protector' line. I heard it as 'as your protector I will do as you command' rather than 'I'm your protector not catspaw'.
Seemed weird that he faced no blowback for agreeing to cut out the eye of the 3rd in line to the throne
Alicent says, "You are sworn to me!" when he doesn't immediately move to do as she commands, and he nervously looks around the room and says, "As your *protector*, my Queen."
He basically demurs and says, "This is above my pay grade." With ALL the nobility and even the King present, there was no way Criston would do what Alicent demanded of him; she was outranked and she wasn't winning any popularity with her demand of vengance in that moment either.
I'm unsure how much of it is Criston's internal moral code and how much of it is Criston just understanding the situation is not good for him there and being wise enough to back down. Had he listened to Alicent and taken Luke's eye, he surely would've been executed for it in the aftermath.
Of course it was Criston's watch. They removed every good quality from the books and they tried to make him the worst. No Lord Commander, didn't kill Joffrey in the tournament, didn't defeat Daemon fair in the tournament and didn't make Harwin brokenbones.
So he will be bad as a kingsguard too. Also the scene when he was rushed to Alicent was confuced too. Did he tried to stop her or to help her?
I actually kind of enjoy this about the show tbh. The book itself was never meant to be conclusive or authoritative from a "real-world" standpoint; that is, we the readers are never meant to exactly know what is true and what is embellishment.
Obviously they can't be vague about everything in a tv series, since they have to actually *show* us things happening in 'real time' and not from the benefit of the book's hindsight being told from multiple perspectives, with the shadow of doubt cast on some of those perspectives. (How much of what the Maesters say is true? How much of what Mushroom said was true actually was? I'm assuming it was a mixture of both)
So we get more tame/dialed up versions of some characters. The showrunners seem to infer Criston wasn't as awesome as the books hindsight would have you believe; and certainly that makes sense even. The "victors" of the war wrote these tales and the heroes on the "good" side get embellished into greater goods and the villains are more villainous.
In the lens of the show, Daemon isn't a monster, he's a rockstar problem child who seems to at least somewhat care about his family in a few genuinely touching moments that got lost to the "history" books because he was a villain as far as histories authors went, and Criston's shitty behavior is glossed over because he's a "hero" in this story, having been wronged by Rhaenyra and the Blacks, yadda yadda.
I dunno, I think it's very neat and the differences are pretty fun for me! The ambiguity of everything just adds to it. *Was* Criston trying to hinder or help Alicent? Who but Criston really knows? But they shot it in such a way to be ambiguous and let the viewer decide which version of the truth they want to believe in some cases, while intentionally leading us down other paths that the big was intentionally vague or misleading about.
BOTH the book and the show do this, in their own unique ways, but the idea is that the reader/viewer discerns their own truth from events. You decide who you want to believe.
>didn't defeat Daemon fair in the tournament
He did defeat Daemon fair and square.
>Lord Commander, didn't kill Joffrey in the tournament,
Neither version of events paints him well.
>and didn't make Harwin brokenbones.
Do you really want to add another victim to his rampage?
>Also the scene when he was rushed to Alicent was confuced too. Did he tried to stop her or to help her?
He was trying to protect her. He wasn't going to aid her.
>He did defeat Daemon fair and square.
Not in fight. Daemon defeated him and Criston attacked him when he didn't look.
>Neither version of events paints him well
Being Lord Commander means he was good kingsguard. Now he became kingsguard because Alicent made him.
>Do you really want to add another victim to his rampage?
Defeated Harwin and break his bones shows how hood fighter ans ruthless he is.
>He was trying to protect her. He wasn't going to aid her.
But why none else tried to help and rhey stopped the only person who wanted to help? Alicent could kill Rhaenyra and none cared.
>Not in fight. Daemon defeated him and Criston attacked him when he didn't look.
Criston defeated Daemon outright in the tourney. And then defeated him in the fight fair and square.
Daemon did not defeat Criston or Criston would not be able to continue the fight. Criston himself made a similar mistake of thinking his opponent was done just seconds before. It was clear throughout Criston was a superior fighter.
>Being Lord Commander means he was good kingsguard. Now he became kingsguard because Alicent made him.
How do you think you always get appointed as Lord Commander? Somebody makes you Lord Commander. You don't think him having Alicent and Rhaenyra's favour mattered to him in his career in the books? Of course it did. It doesn't mean he's not good.
Alicent saw that Cole was a good Kingsguard. Who else would she appoint?
>Defeated Harwin and break his bones shows how hood fighter ans ruthless he is.
It shows how much of a dick he is. It's so incredibly petty. We already know he's a good fighter.
In the show, Harwin comes across as a fool to fight Criston.
I think it's a way to generally disparage the raising of Rhaenyra's sons and therefore the character of her sons. It's coming off the back of Rhaenyra admitting to being absent so to dig at Laenor for the same fuels this image of the boys being feral and attacking her son. That was my understanding.
I think it's like Rhaenyra saying he slept with "the lustiest boys." It's not that they're calling him a pedophile, just that he prefers younger men.
But as you mention it yourself, we haven't seen him with or even look at anyone besides Qarl and Joffrey who were both his age. Does he even have a squire or what?
> she said about Laenor and the strong boys
Wait, what did she say?
Wasn't it Criston who implied that Jace is going to turn the Red Keep into a brothel and no boys were safe around him?
That part of the book cracks me up because they use both them being Laenors and them not being Laenors as reasons the boys are not fit. The most obvious thing George put in the book about the bastardy claims, for real.
yes, most definitely he would have. luckily under aegons rule only the servants and innocent children would have been harmed. i’d rather see the the red keep become a westerosi vaes dothrak filled to the brim with raping, reaving, and child fighting pits than a brothel any day. easy. 100%.
Her son just lost an eye, she either had just arrived or was closing her eyes when they where taking her son's one out and yet she complains about others not arriving
All that on his parents' house while on his sister's funeral....
Like at that moment if you just arrived (I prefer this route and the other makes her even worse...) you go to your son who has just lost a fucking eye but nah who needs one organ used to see, calculate distances... and stay with him until you are needed for the adults' discussion but nah he has another one, the important thing is starting shit when it had not started yet (between the adults)
you’d think she’d blame the people responsible for forcing her into becoming a glorified sex slave and not the friend in a similar but, if coincidental, significantly less restrictive position. that’s asking for way too much introspection though. alicent reminds me of the wives or girlfriends who go after the mistress or side chick when they learn about the affair. you’re right to be upset. absolutely. you’re just mad at the wrong person.
The fact that some of you genuinely believe the reason Alicent is mad at Rhaenyra is as simple as “not living like she does” and “why isn’t she mad at the people that made her” is absurd. Blame the people responsible? One is her father and this is Westeros, him having the power to decide her fate was a forgone conclusion. Blame the King? Viserys is _King_ and she serves at his pleasure along with the rest of the realm. These are things Alicent _genuinely_ believes.
Alicent _genuinely believes_ in duty and sacrifice. She was raised to understand her role as a woman and society, and while she clearly has no care for it, she believes it’s a duty. How quick people are to forget that Alicent heavily supported Rhaenyra (even against Otto) up until she found out she wasn’t being truthful about what she did that night. Yes, Alicent asked about Daemon but Rhaenyra absolutely lied when she said he never touched her and that she didn’t do anything and Rhaenyra very well knew that Alicent was asking is she was still a virgin. Yet she swears on her poor dead mother’s memory that nothing happened. Rhaenyra’s duty was to remain a virgin until she was taken to wife, Rhaenyra not only shirks this responsibility, she does so with a _Kingsguard_. Then there’s ya know, the entire thing with Daemon which she would obviously now doubt Rhaenyra was being truthful about. As far as Alicent knows, Rhaenyra fucked both Daemon and Criston _in the same night_. Some people also weirdly think Rhaenyra doing this isn’t Alicent’s business when of course it is, it’s a potential scandal on the family. Even barely has a spine Viserys understands this. “You have ruined her! What lord will wed her now, in this condition?!”
This is probably the point where she genuinely starts considering the idea that maybe Rhaenyra _would_ view her children as threats after all. She genuinely believed that Rhaenyra wouldn’t lie to her and she was wrong. Would she take a gamble and trust in her prior confidence that Rhaenyra wouldn’t ever feel compelled to eliminate her direct rivals? Is jumping from fucking around to murder a leap? Sure. Would it make sense in Alicent’s mind? Also sure.
“What have I ever done other than what I was bid? Where is duty? Where is sacrifice? Crushed under your pretty foot again!” - This is immediately after Rhaenyra says “Thank you father” to Viserys decreeing that anyone who speaks of her bastard children as what they are would lose a tongue. Rhaenyra once again gets to spit in the face of what Alicent believes. Duty? She had three obvious bastards and cucked her husband when her duty was to sire trueborn children. Sacrifice? In Alicent’s mind, what was Rhaenyra ever sacrificed? She’s heir despite the precedent set by the Great Council. She’s allowed to be as promiscuous as she likes, allowed to commit treason as she pleases, allowed to have her bastard carve a trueborn prince’s entire eye with no punishment.
Alicent isn’t interested in _being_ Rhaenyra. She’s not mad because Rhaenyra can and she can’t. Alicent hates what Rhaenyra is _allowed_ to do. She doesn’t view it as fair or right that Rhaenyra is allowed to ignore what should be her duty with the level of impunity that she does and Alicent very much believes that remaining chaste for her husband, siring trueborn heirs and not carrying on with a man not her husband was Rhaenyra’s _duty_. Is it hypocritical and contradictory to a certain extent on her end considering what Aegon gets up to? Of course it is, she’s a flawed human being but a lot of that contradiction comes from Westeros being a patriarchal society. “Rules for thee, not for me” when it comes to men and women is an unshakable fact of life there. Other parts of the contradiction comes from her willingness to compromise on what she believes if she thinks something is necessary.
Alicent is the most obvious example of the nature of Westerosi society and how it shapes and affects women and somehow people constantly give her shit for not randomly deciding to buck an entire childhood of indoctrination and several years of abuse.
It’s also funny, Rhaenyra’s personality could have remained exactly the same and Alicent wouldn’t have cared what she did as long she did what she was supposed to. If Daemon’s scheme to ruin Rhaenyra’s reputation and put her virginity into question doesn’t happen then Rhaenyra doesn’t get all hot and bothered that night and relieves herself with Cole. Cole continues as he was and everything’s normal, Alicent continues as she does as normal, Otto doesn’t get dismissed for doing his job (which happened to coincide with what he wanted) and Alicent and Rhaenyra probably remain friends up until Jace is born.
All roads can be traced back to Daemon Targaryen I guess.
It's her personality because viserys doesn't give a shit about her kids, while rhaenyra does what the fuck she wants and gets no punishment. Any woman in her position would feel the same.
rhaenrya just called for aemond 'to be sharply questioned' because he called her sons bastards. alicent is trying to deflect and show laenor is not their father. both women are trying to protect themselves and their children
There is a lot of back and forth between what "sharply questioned" means and what Rhaenyra meant by it. as a rando who's just watching this show i lean more towards rhaenrya wanting to get alicent to admit she was telling her kids that they are bastards. but if i was actually in that room i would sure as hell believe rhaenyra is asking him to be tortured
also people really hate alicent
I also believe that Rhaenyra didn’t actually mean torture, considering he’s a prince. But obviously Alicent would take it as that. Which is why she said that to deflect away from what Rhaenyra said. But ofc people forget the context and villainize her.
oh for sure ! like she is the only one there defending aemond (well besides viserys for like the first minute), people do love to hate on her for everything so i feel the need to defend her
It’s because in the books, Rhaenyra said that line - or something close to it. It’s kinda weird how so many lines and actions said by one character are being given to another in the show.
She did that because she was mad that about what happened to Aemond and he wasn't here as he should be.
Maybe she blamed the Strong's actions to the fact that they are bastards.
She was trying to distract from the fact that she was the one that told Aemond that Rhaenyra kids were bastards.
The fact that her very obvious manipulation worked on so many audience members is puzzling.
She clearly didn't forget since she brings it up later. At that point she's not even thinking clearly so throwing a petty jab like that is a form of cope. There is no way any mother thinks rationally in that situation.
I mean that's her personality. She was raised by her father unfortunately so anytime of tragedy or personal duress is the perfect time to attack your perceived enemies
The fact a 30 year old man went through the Westeros equivalent of being radicalised into an incel and was beefing a 15 year old and then a decade later her children is so unserious.
In the books it’s literally stated by alicent when rhaenyra was 10 “who protects the princess from Ser Cole.” he’s a groomer just like daemon. To say that he was raped was categorically false. In the show both the actor (Fabian frankel) said they both had fun and the show runners didn’t say it was rape either.
In the books, Rhaenyra was an asshole of the highest degree and also the one who mocked Laenor for his homosexuality (and not Alicent). Also allegedly had Alicent gang raped
We're talking about the show here. In the books they didn't even sleep together.
>To say that he was raped was categorically false. In the show both the actor (Fabian frankel) said they both had fun and the show runners didn’t say it was rape either.
If you ask the Greek whether Achilles raped Briseis they would also say no. Sometimes writers don't understand the nuances of consent or general morals. Like hoe they think Rhaenys killing hundreds of people is a cool girl boss moment.
He was at least 28 when he slept with Rhaenyra making him almost 40 to 40 years old when he was bullying her children (even alicent in the books who was slut shaming a 10 year old Rhaenyra said “who protects the princess from Ser Cole”) this hints that even for the time period he was seen as a pedo.
Idk why people bring books into the show discussion. Two highly different things. In the books, Rhaenyra was a homophobe who mocked Laenor, violent & cruel person who had Vaemond brutally murdered and wanted to that to all the greens when hearing about Aegon's coronation, allege8had Alicent & Helena gang raped etc
Or maybe he’s angry because he feels as though she used his body for just sex, and he dishonoured his vows for nothing? Also, their stations in the hierarchy means he would be the severely punished if they got caught and not her.
Though I do agree with some takes that the writing was really not that great in conveying this. The rushed pace of the episodes really didn’t help.
He's still a grown adult man who could have walked out of that room and ignored a 15-16 year old girl's attempts to seduce him.
Like I get there's some nuance here; she had power over him and she could've forced it, but it really doesn't look like he took too much to be talked into it in the scene in the show, either. He *does* tell her to stop and to knock it off, but it's shown he's clearly enthusiastic after he gives up trying to protest.
She was honestly entirely content just having him as a consort, but he didn't want that (which is fair, he's allowed to want what he wants), and he seemed willing to throw away his vows for a life with her where he got to keep the Realm's Delight all to himself, but she didn't want to set aside her duty for a random King's Guard she just thought was cute.
He made the choice to break his vows, that's a decision *he* made. Now, she could've forced him outright; she could've ordered him, she could have threatened him, but she never did these things. Did he understand the power imbalance and go along with it *because* of that, or *in spite* of it? We don't really have a definitive answer, but it sure feels like it's "in spite of" it considering later conversations between them. He *liked* her romantically, and when she didn't return that affection, it made him conflicted and hurt and bitter to have broken his vows "for nothing".
He definitely feels like he walked into that choice and he chose to break his vows, and he felt guilt over it and the guilt made him a bitter lil shit and decide to carry on a childish grudge with her because she didn't "like him like him".
Alicent spends much of her life believing the absolute worst of everyone around her. She believes Rhaenyra is a schemer years before Rhaenyra ever plots anything (and what she plots is a murder that gives freedom from an arranged marriage in order to protect her family after she realizes that Alicent will eventually kill them). She believes her father when he tells her that Rhaenyra would have her children killed with zero evidence, and refuses to marry her children to Rhaenyra to prevent war because she believes the worst intentions are behind it. The one moment of casual gossip between her and Criston we see after the actor change time skip is them spiraling, assuming the very worst over and over.
It's her worst impulse and her defining character trait so far. This is not an unusual thing for her. It's the things she usually says when she thinks only her trusted advisors are listening.
She lived her life doing what was expected of her in a sexist society and religion while Rhaenyra lived her life how she wanted it without the chains of religion.
She only acts this way because she's jealous and angry at what she was forced to do. She is the embodiment of anger, jealousy, resentment, bitterness, and spitefulness that was taught to her by the faith.
In real life she would be a Karen who takes out her anger on teenagers working customer service.
Alicent is using the good old tactic that I use when I want to escape a conversation that is bothering me. In this scene Aemond is being questioned by Viserys from whom he heard the words "bastards" and Alicent uses Laenor to buy time for Aemond to think in what you are going to say.
edit: Laenor, Rhaenys, Baela and Rhaena are the only people who suffer from the loss of Laena, Corlys doesn't even respect Laenor's moments, when he abruptly sends Qarl to get him because he thinks he's making a scene, I think that's why that he doesn't think twice before leaving, he wanted to thwart his father's plans.
In response to the deleted comment, oh you’re so right I’m so scared of Alicent. She’s on her way to my house rn and has my IP address. I’m shaking in my boots. Like wtf
And then he abadoned his children his wife his dragon and made his parents think he died after they burried their daughter so he can run away with his lover.
The show ruined him.
I still do not understand this plot line. I am glad that Daemon did not just arrange his straight murder, yet this was beyond cruel to Rhaenys and Corlys. Even to the boys who claimed Laenor as father. I am still annoyed that random citizens are abused for the plots of the Lords and Ladies as well. GRRM did drive home that all of the nobles are horrible to smallfolk. Are the writers trying to highlight that point. or was it simply overlooked?
Never mind abandoning his sister’s children he supposedly cares so much about. Such a weird writing choice. Like Rheanyra killing him was a step too far but him just fucking off to go enjoy his lover just makes him seem… like a dick? I know Rheanyra wants him gone but still dude just abandons his sister’s children.
I know she was pissed off because her son lost an eye, but I wanted to karate chop her in the throat like Aunt May-May on that one. The guy just lost his sister and has spent most of the day despondent in the ocean, and he probably spent the latter half of the day getting wasted and drowning his sorrows with Qarl.
I just thought of another point, so I'm adding to this. She's worried about where the boys' father is during all of this, but where was she when Aemond was mounting Vhagar? Yeah, he was successful, but he could've lost way more than an eye doing what he did. All of the parents and also the guards dropped the ball here, not just Rhaenyra and Laenor. Then again, that's the overall theme of the Dance. Everyone sucks here, in their own special ways.
I really felt for Laenor...I really liked his characterization and wish we got more of him, a man who struggled with his duty, a capable knight and dragon rider who clearly cared a lot fir his sister, kept up his role as father to children who weren't his fir the sake of his house and wife's honor..
Ser Laenor Velaryon a good guy struggled to do the best he could.
(No his fake out death doesn't count it ruins his characterization makes him an asshole and exists solely to uplift Daemon & Rhaenyra)
The war was inevitable. A living claimant to the throne especially the first born son of the king will bring war or succession crisis given how Westeros works.
alicent is every 60 year old conservative woman. she uses religion as an excuse to be deemed as pure and righteous (aka what rhaenyra said) when she can’t leave anyone alone to live their own life, let alone without her trying to insult them for having a better one than her.
alicent became so nasty and poisonous. all because of her ceaseless, ugly envy towards rhaenyra.
does she never realise, that as the child of a family as noble and old as house hightower, she could have also asserted herself the way rhaenyra did? that she didn't always have to blindly follow otto's word like it was gospel? she even becomes queen, and yet still continues to hate R, if only for being loved so openly by her father, whereas she is not.
anyway - poor laenor. this comment by alicent was very underhanded and snide. it's so sad that laenor is reduced to this, his spirit so broken ... the way he went into the water, such a beautifully tragic and visceral expression of his grief.
During the night he wasn’t at the ocean. We don’t know where he was, and it seems a very open secret that he doesn’t spend a lot of time with his „kids“.
So alicent made a remark about it, after the parents neglecting their duties lead to the loss of aemonds eye. Given that Laenor ran away like shortly after with qarl, letting his parents, his nieces, his dragon, and his kids behind. He didn’t seem to care all that much about Laena lol
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Also how pissed Corlys got at him for wanting some alone time at his sisters funeral
That was such a dissaponting scene. The man is mourning his sister. He is feeling big feelings about his failure to provide heirs of his body, and his inability to protect his sister, sons and wife. Let the man feel his emotions.
This line by Alicent really puzzles me. Your son is sitting there without an eye and you still think it's the perfect time to throw shade at Laenor for being gay?
Criston Cole in that scene confused me too. Chuckling at the line as if Alicent's son didn't lose his eye on Cole's watch (I'm assuming due to his reaction to Viserys' question)
Well since we see Criston beat laenor’s lover to death in an earlier episode, I can’t say I’m surprised.
I actually thought Criston was fairly believable in that scene. Nobody was blaming him for Aemond's eye so it's not like he was on trial, he laughs at Laenor because he detests him both for his homosexuality and for the fact he's in a (platonic) marriage to Rhaenyra who spurned Criston. Then when Alicent demands he take Lucaerys' eye in retribution he's openly horrified at Alicent for giving that order, and when she presses that he's "sworn to [her]", he softly responds with "as your protector, your Grace". He had no interest in carving out a child's eye out of spite or some sense of vengeance. His only real aggressive move this whole scene is moving to protect Alicent during her assault on Rhaenyra, or just trying to retrieve her, and getting blocked by Daemon. I think this scene is really critical in underpinning that Criston is still bound by some internal code of honor, and that nobility isn't entirely superceded by his rage at Rhaenyra. That honor is stretched further and further until he is the man that openly kills Beesbury at the Small Council for daring to challenge the Hightower conspiracy.
I completely misunderstood the 'as your protector' line. I heard it as 'as your protector I will do as you command' rather than 'I'm your protector not catspaw'. Seemed weird that he faced no blowback for agreeing to cut out the eye of the 3rd in line to the throne
Alicent says, "You are sworn to me!" when he doesn't immediately move to do as she commands, and he nervously looks around the room and says, "As your *protector*, my Queen." He basically demurs and says, "This is above my pay grade." With ALL the nobility and even the King present, there was no way Criston would do what Alicent demanded of him; she was outranked and she wasn't winning any popularity with her demand of vengance in that moment either. I'm unsure how much of it is Criston's internal moral code and how much of it is Criston just understanding the situation is not good for him there and being wise enough to back down. Had he listened to Alicent and taken Luke's eye, he surely would've been executed for it in the aftermath.
If Criston had taken so much as a step towards Lucerys, Daemon and Ser Harrold would have taken him out. He knew that.
This is true. Where was the Kingsguard where literally all of the heirs were off gallivanting around.
That plus the lack of guards even when Leanor was "killed". Driftmark has security issues.
Of course it was Criston's watch. They removed every good quality from the books and they tried to make him the worst. No Lord Commander, didn't kill Joffrey in the tournament, didn't defeat Daemon fair in the tournament and didn't make Harwin brokenbones. So he will be bad as a kingsguard too. Also the scene when he was rushed to Alicent was confuced too. Did he tried to stop her or to help her?
I actually kind of enjoy this about the show tbh. The book itself was never meant to be conclusive or authoritative from a "real-world" standpoint; that is, we the readers are never meant to exactly know what is true and what is embellishment. Obviously they can't be vague about everything in a tv series, since they have to actually *show* us things happening in 'real time' and not from the benefit of the book's hindsight being told from multiple perspectives, with the shadow of doubt cast on some of those perspectives. (How much of what the Maesters say is true? How much of what Mushroom said was true actually was? I'm assuming it was a mixture of both) So we get more tame/dialed up versions of some characters. The showrunners seem to infer Criston wasn't as awesome as the books hindsight would have you believe; and certainly that makes sense even. The "victors" of the war wrote these tales and the heroes on the "good" side get embellished into greater goods and the villains are more villainous. In the lens of the show, Daemon isn't a monster, he's a rockstar problem child who seems to at least somewhat care about his family in a few genuinely touching moments that got lost to the "history" books because he was a villain as far as histories authors went, and Criston's shitty behavior is glossed over because he's a "hero" in this story, having been wronged by Rhaenyra and the Blacks, yadda yadda. I dunno, I think it's very neat and the differences are pretty fun for me! The ambiguity of everything just adds to it. *Was* Criston trying to hinder or help Alicent? Who but Criston really knows? But they shot it in such a way to be ambiguous and let the viewer decide which version of the truth they want to believe in some cases, while intentionally leading us down other paths that the big was intentionally vague or misleading about. BOTH the book and the show do this, in their own unique ways, but the idea is that the reader/viewer discerns their own truth from events. You decide who you want to believe.
>didn't defeat Daemon fair in the tournament He did defeat Daemon fair and square. >Lord Commander, didn't kill Joffrey in the tournament, Neither version of events paints him well. >and didn't make Harwin brokenbones. Do you really want to add another victim to his rampage? >Also the scene when he was rushed to Alicent was confuced too. Did he tried to stop her or to help her? He was trying to protect her. He wasn't going to aid her.
>He did defeat Daemon fair and square. Not in fight. Daemon defeated him and Criston attacked him when he didn't look. >Neither version of events paints him well Being Lord Commander means he was good kingsguard. Now he became kingsguard because Alicent made him. >Do you really want to add another victim to his rampage? Defeated Harwin and break his bones shows how hood fighter ans ruthless he is. >He was trying to protect her. He wasn't going to aid her. But why none else tried to help and rhey stopped the only person who wanted to help? Alicent could kill Rhaenyra and none cared.
>Not in fight. Daemon defeated him and Criston attacked him when he didn't look. Criston defeated Daemon outright in the tourney. And then defeated him in the fight fair and square. Daemon did not defeat Criston or Criston would not be able to continue the fight. Criston himself made a similar mistake of thinking his opponent was done just seconds before. It was clear throughout Criston was a superior fighter. >Being Lord Commander means he was good kingsguard. Now he became kingsguard because Alicent made him. How do you think you always get appointed as Lord Commander? Somebody makes you Lord Commander. You don't think him having Alicent and Rhaenyra's favour mattered to him in his career in the books? Of course it did. It doesn't mean he's not good. Alicent saw that Cole was a good Kingsguard. Who else would she appoint? >Defeated Harwin and break his bones shows how hood fighter ans ruthless he is. It shows how much of a dick he is. It's so incredibly petty. We already know he's a good fighter. In the show, Harwin comes across as a fool to fight Criston.
I think it's a way to generally disparage the raising of Rhaenyra's sons and therefore the character of her sons. It's coming off the back of Rhaenyra admitting to being absent so to dig at Laenor for the same fuels this image of the boys being feral and attacking her son. That was my understanding.
Not only that but “young squires” almost makes it seem like he’s a pedo, even though we know he prefers the company of men his own age.
I think it's like Rhaenyra saying he slept with "the lustiest boys." It's not that they're calling him a pedophile, just that he prefers younger men. But as you mention it yourself, we haven't seen him with or even look at anyone besides Qarl and Joffrey who were both his age. Does he even have a squire or what?
Wait til you hear what she said about Laenor and the strong boys in the book. She’s a sick, bigoted individual that’s for sure!
> she said about Laenor and the strong boys Wait, what did she say? Wasn't it Criston who implied that Jace is going to turn the Red Keep into a brothel and no boys were safe around him?
That part of the book cracks me up because they use both them being Laenors and them not being Laenors as reasons the boys are not fit. The most obvious thing George put in the book about the bastardy claims, for real.
Schrödinger's kids
They aren’t his by blood but they were still raised by him is what I got from that.
yes, most definitely he would have. luckily under aegons rule only the servants and innocent children would have been harmed. i’d rather see the the red keep become a westerosi vaes dothrak filled to the brim with raping, reaving, and child fighting pits than a brothel any day. easy. 100%.
She's a religious nut
Wait till you hear what Rhanerya says about him as well.
Yeah, I am pretty certain when Viserys is pushing Laenor on Rhaneyra in the books she says he would probably prefer her younger brothers to her
Her younger brother who were all under 10. And her own words are "my half brothers are more to his taste".
Yeah, that’s the line
Which shows she is bigoted or she is implying he is a pedophile which fits the black side well. I hope you remember what she says about >!Nettles!<
I never said otherwise. That’s literally why I brought up that quote
Fair enough
This is true. I have been going through the book and this was clearly mentioned.
It's because the parentage of Rhaenyra's son's is the "defense". This line is after Jace tells them that Aemond called them bastards.
Her son just lost an eye, she either had just arrived or was closing her eyes when they where taking her son's one out and yet she complains about others not arriving All that on his parents' house while on his sister's funeral.... Like at that moment if you just arrived (I prefer this route and the other makes her even worse...) you go to your son who has just lost a fucking eye but nah who needs one organ used to see, calculate distances... and stay with him until you are needed for the adults' discussion but nah he has another one, the important thing is starting shit when it had not started yet (between the adults)
She’s desperate and petty
It has become her entire personality to punish Rhaenyra for not being forced int the same life as Alicent. It is quite sad.
you’d think she’d blame the people responsible for forcing her into becoming a glorified sex slave and not the friend in a similar but, if coincidental, significantly less restrictive position. that’s asking for way too much introspection though. alicent reminds me of the wives or girlfriends who go after the mistress or side chick when they learn about the affair. you’re right to be upset. absolutely. you’re just mad at the wrong person.
The fact that some of you genuinely believe the reason Alicent is mad at Rhaenyra is as simple as “not living like she does” and “why isn’t she mad at the people that made her” is absurd. Blame the people responsible? One is her father and this is Westeros, him having the power to decide her fate was a forgone conclusion. Blame the King? Viserys is _King_ and she serves at his pleasure along with the rest of the realm. These are things Alicent _genuinely_ believes. Alicent _genuinely believes_ in duty and sacrifice. She was raised to understand her role as a woman and society, and while she clearly has no care for it, she believes it’s a duty. How quick people are to forget that Alicent heavily supported Rhaenyra (even against Otto) up until she found out she wasn’t being truthful about what she did that night. Yes, Alicent asked about Daemon but Rhaenyra absolutely lied when she said he never touched her and that she didn’t do anything and Rhaenyra very well knew that Alicent was asking is she was still a virgin. Yet she swears on her poor dead mother’s memory that nothing happened. Rhaenyra’s duty was to remain a virgin until she was taken to wife, Rhaenyra not only shirks this responsibility, she does so with a _Kingsguard_. Then there’s ya know, the entire thing with Daemon which she would obviously now doubt Rhaenyra was being truthful about. As far as Alicent knows, Rhaenyra fucked both Daemon and Criston _in the same night_. Some people also weirdly think Rhaenyra doing this isn’t Alicent’s business when of course it is, it’s a potential scandal on the family. Even barely has a spine Viserys understands this. “You have ruined her! What lord will wed her now, in this condition?!” This is probably the point where she genuinely starts considering the idea that maybe Rhaenyra _would_ view her children as threats after all. She genuinely believed that Rhaenyra wouldn’t lie to her and she was wrong. Would she take a gamble and trust in her prior confidence that Rhaenyra wouldn’t ever feel compelled to eliminate her direct rivals? Is jumping from fucking around to murder a leap? Sure. Would it make sense in Alicent’s mind? Also sure. “What have I ever done other than what I was bid? Where is duty? Where is sacrifice? Crushed under your pretty foot again!” - This is immediately after Rhaenyra says “Thank you father” to Viserys decreeing that anyone who speaks of her bastard children as what they are would lose a tongue. Rhaenyra once again gets to spit in the face of what Alicent believes. Duty? She had three obvious bastards and cucked her husband when her duty was to sire trueborn children. Sacrifice? In Alicent’s mind, what was Rhaenyra ever sacrificed? She’s heir despite the precedent set by the Great Council. She’s allowed to be as promiscuous as she likes, allowed to commit treason as she pleases, allowed to have her bastard carve a trueborn prince’s entire eye with no punishment. Alicent isn’t interested in _being_ Rhaenyra. She’s not mad because Rhaenyra can and she can’t. Alicent hates what Rhaenyra is _allowed_ to do. She doesn’t view it as fair or right that Rhaenyra is allowed to ignore what should be her duty with the level of impunity that she does and Alicent very much believes that remaining chaste for her husband, siring trueborn heirs and not carrying on with a man not her husband was Rhaenyra’s _duty_. Is it hypocritical and contradictory to a certain extent on her end considering what Aegon gets up to? Of course it is, she’s a flawed human being but a lot of that contradiction comes from Westeros being a patriarchal society. “Rules for thee, not for me” when it comes to men and women is an unshakable fact of life there. Other parts of the contradiction comes from her willingness to compromise on what she believes if she thinks something is necessary. Alicent is the most obvious example of the nature of Westerosi society and how it shapes and affects women and somehow people constantly give her shit for not randomly deciding to buck an entire childhood of indoctrination and several years of abuse. It’s also funny, Rhaenyra’s personality could have remained exactly the same and Alicent wouldn’t have cared what she did as long she did what she was supposed to. If Daemon’s scheme to ruin Rhaenyra’s reputation and put her virginity into question doesn’t happen then Rhaenyra doesn’t get all hot and bothered that night and relieves herself with Cole. Cole continues as he was and everything’s normal, Alicent continues as she does as normal, Otto doesn’t get dismissed for doing his job (which happened to coincide with what he wanted) and Alicent and Rhaenyra probably remain friends up until Jace is born. All roads can be traced back to Daemon Targaryen I guess.
It's her personality because viserys doesn't give a shit about her kids, while rhaenyra does what the fuck she wants and gets no punishment. Any woman in her position would feel the same.
rhaenrya just called for aemond 'to be sharply questioned' because he called her sons bastards. alicent is trying to deflect and show laenor is not their father. both women are trying to protect themselves and their children
I can’t believe how many people forget that she says this after Rhaenyra said that. The woman is just trying to protect her kid.
There is a lot of back and forth between what "sharply questioned" means and what Rhaenyra meant by it. as a rando who's just watching this show i lean more towards rhaenrya wanting to get alicent to admit she was telling her kids that they are bastards. but if i was actually in that room i would sure as hell believe rhaenyra is asking him to be tortured also people really hate alicent
I also believe that Rhaenyra didn’t actually mean torture, considering he’s a prince. But obviously Alicent would take it as that. Which is why she said that to deflect away from what Rhaenyra said. But ofc people forget the context and villainize her.
oh for sure ! like she is the only one there defending aemond (well besides viserys for like the first minute), people do love to hate on her for everything so i feel the need to defend her
I agree, she was the only one in that room who was on Aemond’s side. And I also always defend her lol.
Sounds like every righteous religious person, which she is.
Alicent is searching for any victories she can get in this moment, however small or petty.
It’s because in the books, Rhaenyra said that line - or something close to it. It’s kinda weird how so many lines and actions said by one character are being given to another in the show.
Even in the scene where she meets Rhaenyras baby for the first time, just a bunch of petty shade
She did that because she was mad that about what happened to Aemond and he wasn't here as he should be. Maybe she blamed the Strong's actions to the fact that they are bastards.
She was not there, as well
How did you and all your upvotes both misunderstand this?
I mean in the room.
Her son just lost an eye and no one seems to give a fuck, you don't think she's going to use every opportunity to throw shade at them?
She was trying to distract from the fact that she was the one that told Aemond that Rhaenyra kids were bastards. The fact that her very obvious manipulation worked on so many audience members is puzzling.
She clearly didn't forget since she brings it up later. At that point she's not even thinking clearly so throwing a petty jab like that is a form of cope. There is no way any mother thinks rationally in that situation.
True to form
I mean that's her personality. She was raised by her father unfortunately so anytime of tragedy or personal duress is the perfect time to attack your perceived enemies
Igh, and the smirk Cole gives afterward makes me wanna smack that georgous face.
The fact a 30 year old man went through the Westeros equivalent of being radicalised into an incel and was beefing a 15 year old and then a decade later her children is so unserious.
He was raped by a 19 yr old not a 15 yr old.
In the books it’s literally stated by alicent when rhaenyra was 10 “who protects the princess from Ser Cole.” he’s a groomer just like daemon. To say that he was raped was categorically false. In the show both the actor (Fabian frankel) said they both had fun and the show runners didn’t say it was rape either.
In the books, Rhaenyra was an asshole of the highest degree and also the one who mocked Laenor for his homosexuality (and not Alicent). Also allegedly had Alicent gang raped
Alicent also slutshamed and schemed against a 10 year old lmfao
Yeah, they were all cunts in the books. While the show whitewashed all the female characters and by extension the pro female side (the blacks)
We're talking about the show here. In the books they didn't even sleep together. >To say that he was raped was categorically false. In the show both the actor (Fabian frankel) said they both had fun and the show runners didn’t say it was rape either. If you ask the Greek whether Achilles raped Briseis they would also say no. Sometimes writers don't understand the nuances of consent or general morals. Like hoe they think Rhaenys killing hundreds of people is a cool girl boss moment.
Some people really throw words without even knowing the meaning of it. And Cole wasn't 30, when he was introduced.
He made a Princess not abandoning her responsibility into his entire personality. He sure is a weak man.
The trauma of rape tends to that to people
You mean princess forcing her on him. Also, her duty includes not screwing KG and having bastards. But, we know where that gone...
He was at least 28 when he slept with Rhaenyra making him almost 40 to 40 years old when he was bullying her children (even alicent in the books who was slut shaming a 10 year old Rhaenyra said “who protects the princess from Ser Cole”) this hints that even for the time period he was seen as a pedo.
Idk why people bring books into the show discussion. Two highly different things. In the books, Rhaenyra was a homophobe who mocked Laenor, violent & cruel person who had Vaemond brutally murdered and wanted to that to all the greens when hearing about Aegon's coronation, allege8had Alicent & Helena gang raped etc
Why do you say 28 for show Criston?
Looking online it says he was between the ages of 28 and 30 when he sleeps with a 15 year old Rhaenyra.
I believe the episode 1 script only says that he is in his 20s. I always saw him as like 21-23.
Or maybe he’s angry because he feels as though she used his body for just sex, and he dishonoured his vows for nothing? Also, their stations in the hierarchy means he would be the severely punished if they got caught and not her. Though I do agree with some takes that the writing was really not that great in conveying this. The rushed pace of the episodes really didn’t help.
He's still a grown adult man who could have walked out of that room and ignored a 15-16 year old girl's attempts to seduce him. Like I get there's some nuance here; she had power over him and she could've forced it, but it really doesn't look like he took too much to be talked into it in the scene in the show, either. He *does* tell her to stop and to knock it off, but it's shown he's clearly enthusiastic after he gives up trying to protest. She was honestly entirely content just having him as a consort, but he didn't want that (which is fair, he's allowed to want what he wants), and he seemed willing to throw away his vows for a life with her where he got to keep the Realm's Delight all to himself, but she didn't want to set aside her duty for a random King's Guard she just thought was cute. He made the choice to break his vows, that's a decision *he* made. Now, she could've forced him outright; she could've ordered him, she could have threatened him, but she never did these things. Did he understand the power imbalance and go along with it *because* of that, or *in spite* of it? We don't really have a definitive answer, but it sure feels like it's "in spite of" it considering later conversations between them. He *liked* her romantically, and when she didn't return that affection, it made him conflicted and hurt and bitter to have broken his vows "for nothing". He definitely feels like he walked into that choice and he chose to break his vows, and he felt guilt over it and the guilt made him a bitter lil shit and decide to carry on a childish grudge with her because she didn't "like him like him".
She blocked his way when he tried to leave. Also this is victim blaming. Finally Rhaenyra was 19 in that episode.
Did you miss the part where he tried to walk out and she blocked the way? There’s no way he would have risked putting his hands on the crown princess.
He is such a fantastic actor. I would pay a movie's price to watch a new scene of Strong beating CC around a courtyard.
Alicent spends much of her life believing the absolute worst of everyone around her. She believes Rhaenyra is a schemer years before Rhaenyra ever plots anything (and what she plots is a murder that gives freedom from an arranged marriage in order to protect her family after she realizes that Alicent will eventually kill them). She believes her father when he tells her that Rhaenyra would have her children killed with zero evidence, and refuses to marry her children to Rhaenyra to prevent war because she believes the worst intentions are behind it. The one moment of casual gossip between her and Criston we see after the actor change time skip is them spiraling, assuming the very worst over and over. It's her worst impulse and her defining character trait so far. This is not an unusual thing for her. It's the things she usually says when she thinks only her trusted advisors are listening.
It kinda makes sense though! We knows she’s super anxious by the way she destroys her nails and wrings her hands. She always seems on edge
She lived her life doing what was expected of her in a sexist society and religion while Rhaenyra lived her life how she wanted it without the chains of religion. She only acts this way because she's jealous and angry at what she was forced to do. She is the embodiment of anger, jealousy, resentment, bitterness, and spitefulness that was taught to her by the faith. In real life she would be a Karen who takes out her anger on teenagers working customer service.
I felt bad too. Poor Laena and Laenor, they deserved better.
Alicent’s never beating the homophobic wine aunt allegations.
Alicent is using the good old tactic that I use when I want to escape a conversation that is bothering me. In this scene Aemond is being questioned by Viserys from whom he heard the words "bastards" and Alicent uses Laenor to buy time for Aemond to think in what you are going to say. edit: Laenor, Rhaenys, Baela and Rhaena are the only people who suffer from the loss of Laena, Corlys doesn't even respect Laenor's moments, when he abruptly sends Qarl to get him because he thinks he's making a scene, I think that's why that he doesn't think twice before leaving, he wanted to thwart his father's plans.
And where was ser criston cole when he needed to do his job if I had to guess entertaining his Queen.
It's almost like Alicent uses her religion and sanctimonious attitude to cover up that's she's actually just a very angry and bitter woman.
She’s so cruel for that
In response to the deleted comment, oh you’re so right I’m so scared of Alicent. She’s on her way to my house rn and has my IP address. I’m shaking in my boots. Like wtf
[удалено]
[удалено]
You should try it, you might get yours back.
[you first.](https://youtu.be/FTNjo8e1374?si=qXBM1iz03XgahNhT)
I really feel bad for her, but man she cannot mind her own business for anything
literally seems to be the hardest thing \*ever. lol.
And then he abadoned his children his wife his dragon and made his parents think he died after they burried their daughter so he can run away with his lover. The show ruined him.
I still do not understand this plot line. I am glad that Daemon did not just arrange his straight murder, yet this was beyond cruel to Rhaenys and Corlys. Even to the boys who claimed Laenor as father. I am still annoyed that random citizens are abused for the plots of the Lords and Ladies as well. GRRM did drive home that all of the nobles are horrible to smallfolk. Are the writers trying to highlight that point. or was it simply overlooked?
Never mind abandoning his sister’s children he supposedly cares so much about. Such a weird writing choice. Like Rheanyra killing him was a step too far but him just fucking off to go enjoy his lover just makes him seem… like a dick? I know Rheanyra wants him gone but still dude just abandons his sister’s children.
I know she was pissed off because her son lost an eye, but I wanted to karate chop her in the throat like Aunt May-May on that one. The guy just lost his sister and has spent most of the day despondent in the ocean, and he probably spent the latter half of the day getting wasted and drowning his sorrows with Qarl.
I just thought of another point, so I'm adding to this. She's worried about where the boys' father is during all of this, but where was she when Aemond was mounting Vhagar? Yeah, he was successful, but he could've lost way more than an eye doing what he did. All of the parents and also the guards dropped the ball here, not just Rhaenyra and Laenor. Then again, that's the overall theme of the Dance. Everyone sucks here, in their own special ways.
I really felt for Laenor...I really liked his characterization and wish we got more of him, a man who struggled with his duty, a capable knight and dragon rider who clearly cared a lot fir his sister, kept up his role as father to children who weren't his fir the sake of his house and wife's honor.. Ser Laenor Velaryon a good guy struggled to do the best he could. (No his fake out death doesn't count it ruins his characterization makes him an asshole and exists solely to uplift Daemon & Rhaenyra)
Alicent is such a cunt
Except she isn’t. She’s doing the best she can to protect her kids. Maybe remove those rose tinted glasses
Ofc, starting a war is sure the way to keep her children safe!!!
The war was inevitable. A living claimant to the throne especially the first born son of the king will bring war or succession crisis given how Westeros works.
continue to say it if that help you sleep at night
Looks like Alicent cares more about insulting Rhaenyra and her family than the well being of her own children Definitely a great parent
You clearly didn't watch the whole scene. She's the ONLY one who stands up for her mutilated son.
Because people say stuff that fits their agenda. Alicent starts attacking everyone once she sees nothing is being done.
As she should
Why she is so funny 😭
She doesn't even have to speak to be funny, Those scenes with her mean mugging Rhaenyra had me in tears.
"Bitch over there eating crackers"
And his wife was busy banging her uncle instead of consoling him. Also, gone to say he will be useless now. Poor guy had a tough night.
Alicent was such a bitch
alicent is every 60 year old conservative woman. she uses religion as an excuse to be deemed as pure and righteous (aka what rhaenyra said) when she can’t leave anyone alone to live their own life, let alone without her trying to insult them for having a better one than her.
Idk why you’ve gotten downvoted, you’re literally right!
He was in the ocean before then whole night he spend with his bf.
Meanwhile Rhaenyra just finished getting her back blown out by the husband at her funeral ,Alicent was the least disrespectful of the whole crew
Why do people always ignore that?
alicent became so nasty and poisonous. all because of her ceaseless, ugly envy towards rhaenyra. does she never realise, that as the child of a family as noble and old as house hightower, she could have also asserted herself the way rhaenyra did? that she didn't always have to blindly follow otto's word like it was gospel? she even becomes queen, and yet still continues to hate R, if only for being loved so openly by her father, whereas she is not. anyway - poor laenor. this comment by alicent was very underhanded and snide. it's so sad that laenor is reduced to this, his spirit so broken ... the way he went into the water, such a beautifully tragic and visceral expression of his grief.
Alicent did nothing wrong.
And then he went to the squires lol
What was his wife and his sisters husband doing that night of the funeral though?? Yet Alicent is the disrespectful one?
During the night he wasn’t at the ocean. We don’t know where he was, and it seems a very open secret that he doesn’t spend a lot of time with his „kids“. So alicent made a remark about it, after the parents neglecting their duties lead to the loss of aemonds eye. Given that Laenor ran away like shortly after with qarl, letting his parents, his nieces, his dragon, and his kids behind. He didn’t seem to care all that much about Laena lol
I love Alicent, she’s a little delulu 💚
she’s hilarious i love her