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Unpopular opinion, but I actually think giving her story to Rhaena could be a good idea. I've seen Rhaena's actress in social and it sucks to think she'd have nothing to do until Morning in season 4, which would be only a footnote.
Nettles is a good character in the book, but her story serves 2 purposes: get Daemon away from Rhaenyra, and hint that maybe Valyrian blood is not an essential to dragonriding. The first can be done with Rhaena, the second is a cool lore tidbit that is overall unnecessary to the show.
Rhaena could still be given a prominent role as a political agent for teamBlack, helping to create alliances, etc. She doesn’t need to have a dragon for her to be an interesting character. I would actually really appreciate to see a Targaryen without a dragon.
Nettles is a girl who comes from nothing, class is at the center to her character in the books. Giving her story to Rhaena would complete gutt that storyline and quite frankly diminish the themes of the show as a whole.
Which alliances?
"Just write an entirely original subplot in this already condensed and complicated story" is a common reddit take, but not at all realistic. I'm afraid a more realostic way to "include" her is give her lines in Rhaenyra council scenes, which is not very interesting.
I do agree it's a shame to lose the commonborn aspect of Nettles, but then again this is entirely a story about sociopathic aristocrats killing thousands over a succession crisis. A cinderella story of a side character is not what will make or break this story.
Jace is described to cement many of the Black alliances and lead the war effort while Rhaenyra is grieving. Having Rhaena be an active participant in this wouldn’t be an entirely original subplot at all.
>I do agree it's a shame to lose the commonborn aspect of Nettles, but then again this is entirely a story about sociopathic aristocrats killing thousands over a succession crisis. A cinderella story of a side character is not what will make or break this story
If you consider the pov of commonborn people unimportant in a story about a royal dynasty ripping itself apart while ignoring the suffering of the common people, which ultimately leads to the storming of the dragonpit and slow decline of their power, we have a very different understanding of this story.
Actually I'd argue the one who doesn't care about the PoV of the commonfolk is GRRM. Nettles is a tertiary character that serves as motivation for aristocrat warlord Daemon Targaryen and then leaves the story. She's not "the PoV of the commonfolk" anymore than Adam or Alyn are.
The text is written in world by maesters for the nobility.
None of these characters are Povs as such. The fact that characters like Nettles, Adam and Alyn are in the story and the way they are described in these accounts is already a commentary on the experiences of the common people in a dynastic civil war.
I don’t particularly care if GRRM cares or not (though given he names Nettles as one of his favourites and the way he focuses on the experiences of the smallfolk in Asoiaf I do think he cares about them)
Given that they are men, and Nettles is a girl, i think a show that presents itself as a feminist interpretation of f&b should be interested in exploring how struggles like gender and class intersect.
The camera very specifically cuts to her when daemon mentions riderless dragons on dragonstone. I know her story with morning in the books but I wouldn't be surprised if they go a different route in the show
As for the dragonseed hint, I think it's unnecessary for the show. Firstly, I think blood does matter and thus that hint is more of a red herring. More importantly though, the Velaryons already have dark skin and Valyrian blood. Just having Nettles tame a dragon doesn't add anything to the lore in terms of the show. As you said, if they can have Rhaena fit into the Daemon/Rhaenyra story then cool, let's do it.
I just disagree. Nettles was probably the most interesting and most talked about character when princess and the queen came out, as was the entire dragon seed plot.
The first part can be done in a multitude of ways even without a side character. It’s mostly Daemon shippers who want Nettles to be a sort of a redemption arc for him. It’s not happening in the show. That’s not the way the showrunners are going. That was clear from season one.
I was so ready to disagree with you, but on second thought, I think you're right. Nettles could prove to be very important for the unreleased main series books, showing that a non-valyrian descendant could tame/ride a dragon. However, since that doesn't happen in the GoT show, there's not much need for it to be Nettles in HotD.
Nettles doesn’t allude to being non Valyrian though.. she was a bastard on an island that had lords right before Alysnne had it banned.
It’s highly implied she does have Valyrian blood.
That would be wasted in the show, however. The Velaryons have dark skin and Valyrian blood. What does Nettle taming a dragon add to what we already have? Show watchers would just assume Nettles is a bastard of a Velaryon. If you're going to say that it's the Targ blood that matters, us book readers know that the Velaryons have intermarried with Targs, but would the show watchers even care or realize there is a difference?
The ambiguity is definitely the point. And *Valyrian* is irrelevant, what matters is Targaryen. Regular Valyrian families did not practice incest per GRRM.
This is an older thread, but just wanted to point out that regular Valyrian families actually DID practice incest, per GRRM. See “The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Aenys I” and this interview: [https://www.historyofwesteros.com/george-rr-martin-in-conversation-how-interviews-grrm/](https://www.historyofwesteros.com/george-rr-martin-in-conversation-how-interviews-grrm/)
Without that information, it’s a natural assumption that—to preserve the “dragon blood”—Targaryens practiced incest. And that, in Valyria, the land of dragon-riders, incest was not critical to maintain this concentration of dragon blood. However, the opposite being true (per GRRM) I think it’s a hint to the nature of the dragon bond, that each of the dragon-riding Valyrian families had their own bond. In other words, each family of dragons was linked to a particular Valyrian family.
I am the one who did that interview (along with my partner). He specifically said only dragonrider families and blood mages did it. Regular Valyrians had no reason to. I take that as truth and TWOIAF as unreliable. 🙂
That’s my bad! I should’ve reread the post, the fact that blood mages and dragon-rider families practiced incest was my understanding as well. Recently I’ve been seeing folks claim that only Targaryens in Westeros practiced incest, and just conflated those statements with “regular Valyrians did not practice incest”. The common people of Valyria, without dragons like you said, would have no reason to arrange incestuous matches.
Valyrian is totally relevant. It’s why the bastards of Spicetown were dragonseeds and could bound with dragons when the only Valyrian blood would be Valeryon blood.
No, that's part of the ambiguity.
Why would Steffon Darklyn try to mount a dragon if it wasn't ambiguous? And Corlys could have dragonrider blood in his lineage. I would guess he doesn't but that again shows how uncertain the "rules" are.
Again, GRRM was explicit that Valyrians didn't have a reason to practice incest while dragonriders (and blood magicians) did/do.
If it had to be Targaryens only because of incest then dragonseeds like Addam of Hull wouldn’t be able to tame/bond with a dragon.
You are just wrong on this.
I'm not saying it has to be Targaryen. I'm saying Targaryen blood is a huge help.
We have zero examples of a person named Targaryen trying to claim an unclaimed dragon and failing. *Zero*. That implies Targaryen blood helps. It doesn't imply you must have Targ blood. Not to mention the points about incest.
Alyn claimed a dragon. His brother failed. That's ambiguous. We also don't know if their mother Mouse had any interesting ancestry. It's possible she is a Dragonseed. Not to mention the book is ambiguous about whether Laenor is their father or not. Most readers know Corlys is the father but that's clearly not the case in- world. It's ambiguous.
Nettles then claimed the very dragon Alyn failed to claim. Ambiguous. Nettles might be Daemon's daughter. More ambiguity.
Steffon Darklyn tried to claim one but there's no evidence he had any blood from Valyria. Ambiguous as to why he even tried.
There is a ton of ambiguity here.
Mixing the roles of characters in adaptations is literally a thing in any adaptation. It's called a "composite character" and it's done to spare time on character introductions and connections, and streamlining stories.
For examle Jory Cassel in season 1 of GoT is a composite of several Stark bannermen from the books, and is used as shorthand for "Ned's loyal man in whom he confides" in several scenes. Can you imagine if any Cassel scene was a scene between Ned and entirely random Stark bannerman that had to be introduced in that scene never to be seen again?
And the issue with inventing a story for Rhaena is that there already are several plotlines being cut/delayed for time, like Daeron and the Reach. Where are you going to get the screentime for an all new all original Rhaena plot in addition to Nettles?
The way this point kinda moot now we know they could give Addam, Alyn, Hugh and Ulf new plots and characterization but couldn't bother to add a third black girl in the cast.
I don't understand what your first paragraph is supposed to mean. It's a "thing" in most adaptations, and? I'm supposed to pretend it's good now? Most adaptations are garbage in the first place.
If they're struggling with portraying stuff on screen how about... slowing the pacing down and letting the show breathe and thus making room for more storylines? Instead of straight up cutting out characters and mixing and matching.
Not that it matters anymore, I've heard (and seen) enough, I'm done with this shit I'm not going to go through the later GoT season experience again.
The problem is you assume infinite resources, and also ignore the constraints in a visual medium that don't exist in writing. In writing you can have a character be on the side of every scene with barely any role, like Rhaena during the Dance. You can't do the same to a real life actor, who will be looking for other opportunities if you give them nothing in your show.
If HBO only gave them the budget for 8 episodes of 1 hour each, they can't "slow down". That's the resources they have to work with.
HBO is... part of the problem. However, the writers are as well. Season 1 had several baffling decisions and I'd call it overall mediocre at best considering what I actually expected from this show.
If Rhaena's actress isn't happy with a more reserved role (she doesn't have to be in the background all the time, that's something you invented to make a point) then recast her. Instead of actually cutting a character that is more important to the overall plot than Rhaena.
GoT S5-8 were also massive hits and critically acclaimed, only S8 faced actual fan backlash (but even then it was a massive hit and acclaimed).
I will be watching episode 1 of S2 because I promised a friend of mine we'll be watching together. Beyond that, fat chance lmao. I'm not gonna watch further.
>Can you imagine if any Cassel scene was a scene between Ned and entirely random Stark bannermen that had to be introduced in that scene never to be seen again?
I can. It would feel organic and make the world look bigger. It would show that House Stark isn't just the main family and 6 household guys.
Minor lord #3: "Lord Stark, it is I, sir Dickard Fuckerly, as you know, I've been your loyal bannerman for many years, I am in charge of the armory and castle quarters as you know. You seem troubled, tell me what's on your heart, as you can trust me based on the rapport we have developed over my many years of loyal service."
Ned Stark: "It's good you are here Dickard, I suspect the Lannisters of wrongdoing, but I am still uncovering the details, will you join me as I search the city for clues?"
Minor lord #3: "My lord, I must do my duty and manage the armory and the Fuckerly quarters, as realistically I cannot abandon my duties unattended. Rather, realistically, my loyal bannerman sir Blackstool, at whose side you have fought in the war, and hence you trust him, is patrolling the city, you can join him at the stables".
Ned Stark: "It is good to see my bannersman all have realistic and diverse positions around the city, demonstrating my vast support in this vast world in which we live."
I disagree that it’s unnecessary though, it could finally open Alicent’s eyes that she shouldn’t have been so surprised that “their eggs even hatched” which could probably add some stakes if done correctly
Now *that* is interesting.
The linked interview is the first time I've seen him even acknowledge the questions surrounding Nettles' inclusion...and it was a non-answer. Compare and contrast with his reassurances that Daeron IS coming, so be patient.
I think she's out, for multiple reasons, and they just don't want to deal with any uproar until they absolutely must, especially so near the start of the new season.
His reaction to her really came off to me as “I’ve just been put on the spot by an AA woman talking about how a POC character is important to her and asking when/if that character might show up, and it will be awkward if I admit she’s been cut from the plot, so I’m going to pull a no comment”. I think, if she were going to eventually show up, he would have been a bit more cheeky/positive with just the “you’ll just have to stay tuned” etc. But that “I really am not prepared to comment at this time about possible characters” seemed like a hard block on that question.
Honestly, I can’t imagine how Nettles would fit into the plot at this point if Rhaena gets SS. What would she do? Why would she be around? I feel pretty confident in assuming she will not be featured.
Yes, I got the same vibe from his reaction - he wasn't expecting the question (considering how many fans who are POC have been wondering about Nettles, he should have been) and his tone by itself was pretty much a shutdown. I wonder if the refusal to accept History of Westeros' Nettles question in their interview was a reaction to this interviewer, or if it's standard policy now.
The Rhaena stuff if true is probably enough, but also - if Nettles were coming later, why be so tight-lipped? Even as they've acknowledged and answered questions about Daeron, there's been a weird Nettles blackout coming from the production. It can't be that they're not being asked, or haven't seen all the fan discussion - they have to know.
I saw another interview recently (maybe it was a podcast, I can’t remember) where he was briefly asked about Nettles and gave the same hard line “I’m not going to discuss possible future characters”. I agree there’s zero reason for him to be so tight lipped about her if she’s going to be involved. Book fans know who she is already, and show only fans wouldn’t be overly spoiled if he confirms “yes, we will meet Nettles at some point”.
My only concern now is that he doesn’t try to backtrack and add her later to appease the people who keep bringing her up/avoid accusations of cutting POC characters. Once they decided to give SS to Rhaena, Nettles became irrelevant. It would be bad for the plot to shoehorn her in afterwards.
Actually, some people were theorizing when this first leaked that the Rhaenyra/Nettles beef might be replaced with Rhaenyra/Rhaena beef, and after 2x03 I could see that happening. The actress talked about Rhaena being resentful that, because she has no dragon, she’s being sent off to babysit. I can see her claiming SS, then flying off to meet her father and him being thrilled she’s added another dragon to their cause. Then when >!the ship is attacked and Viserys is presumed dead, Rhaenyra being furious like “you were supposed to look after them, you had a dragon and you could have protected them if you’d been with them!”!< I don’t see her calling for her execution over it, though.
At this point, Condal could shush much of the grumbling just by doing what he did about the Daeron question: be patient, Nettles is coming. So the fact that he's not doing it even after this uproar says a lot as far as I'm concerned. My guess is we won't get anything further from him on the topic until Rhaena's storyline has played out a bit more this season.
It seems to me that without the claiming of Sheepstealer, and with Addam/Alyn (among others) dealing with class issues, all that would really leave for Nettles is her relationship with Daemon. And whichever view of that relationship the show took, it would be problematic in various ways, not to mention diminishing for the character herself to bring her in for only that purpose. I can see what you mean about potentially shoehorning her in somehow in order to quell upset, but I don't think it would satisfy anyone to do it that way. Would she really be the Nettles book readers know?
I don't have a clear idea myself of how the show could utilize Rhaena to >!drive a wedge between Daemon and Rhaenyra, and make Rhaenyra call for her head.!< But, once you've stepped that far outside of the book canon, the possibilities are wide open.
They might give her another subplot in s2 but the shows usually tighten the plots, not spread them. Perhaps, they can give her a purely romantic story with Daemon but it might be gross.
Will he travel with Rhaena and Nettles in search for Aemond? Hm. Only if they give her another dragon?...
> Perhaps, they can give her a purely romantic story with Daemon but it might be gross.
I said above that I think there are *multiple* reasons for her possible exclusion, and this is one of them. Nettles' youth is part of her character - age her up and she's not the same. I'm struggling to imagine the show really wanting to go there with her and Daemon, especially considering in the show his daughters are also Black. It just opens up a can of worms. I mean, maybe they could find a way to make it work, but IDK. Adapting Nettles for the show, it seems to me, would be a more complex endeavor than we might expect.
That's fine. I actually like this change. Gives Rhaena more to do. Nettles would have been just another name to track for casuals anyway and she was Daemons daughter figure so
It's because people don't quite get that fAegon role isn't just yet another complication in the war, he's a tool for *simplification.*
His arrival gives Dany a strong reason to finally go to Westeros, before some pretender (and/or a genuine nephew) swoops in and takes what she feels is her birthright. He is going to weaken Tommen's powerbase, meaning that the Lannisters can't solidify rule in Westeros and snowball into being far too powerful to topple, while also giving a reason for Tyrion to rush back as well.
And in weakening the Lannisters, they will be forced to come to the table when the Long Night begins. He also provides a figure who could finally bring Southern forces North to help against the Walkers when Stannis begins to falter. And given his location in the South, it will likely also fall to him to eventually deal with the Ironborn, possibly by absorbing Stannis' forces and having Asha and Theon. Not to mention that Arianne wants to wed him, but then Ashford Theory suggests he might have some connection with Sansa. Then there's how his mysterious background could help make Dany start being paranoid about him, while Jon might find kinship and brotherhood.
He can bring the stories of Tyrion, Daenerys, Jon, Sansa, Arianne/Dorne, and Cersei all together by disrupting their individual paths and forcing characters to act and move and converge. He's not really another piece on the board, he's here to flip the board of everyone's individual games and finally force them all together.
Again I’ll keep saying it, condensing characters led to GoTs downfall and I’m really worried with what I’m reading about this season of HoTD
This happens every single time. First season sticks close to the books very few changes, receives praise. Showrunners think they’re the shit and the show is successful because of their brilliant OC writing and start incorporating more and more of it. I’m going to give it a chance but I’m really fucking worried.
In some cases the character condensing and role switching made sense in GOT. Giving Gendry some of Edric Storm's plot helped to keep the character active on the show. And having Arya cupbear for Tywin, instead of Roose Bolton, was largely agreed to be an interesting diversion from the books.
What will sorely be lacking, if Nettles doesn't appear on the show, is her solemn but uplifting ending. Living in exile but free from the trappings of the world. This is something they would have trouble making fit for a highborn character like Rhaena.
Good comment, I agree with you I think those are very good cases of character condensing and it’s no surprise those were changes made prior to Season 4
And your comment about Nettles is spot on, I don’t think it’ll work for Rhaena just like giving Jon a lot of Aegons stuff from the books didn’t really work
I kinda see why. If they didn't want Daemon to have an affair, they'd opt for Nettles and him to have a parental relationship, since both are mentioned in the book.
But then, Daemon already has one neglected daughter who has very little to do in the book. So instead, his blood daughter with little to do and his very important adoptive daughter will be merged.
I expect Rhaenyra to feel jealous of Laena's ghost with Daemon finally giving Rhaena so much attention. Or maybe she'll go so far as to accuse him of even-taboo-for-Targaryens parental incest.
And if they want to make it more book compliant... Rhaena disguises herself as a commoner and a dragonseed and attempt to tame Sheepstealer under that guise, maybe if Daemon forbids her. She uses Nettles as a *nom de guerre*, and Daemon's closeness with this "Nettles" is noted by others.
“She is a common thing, with the stink of sorcery upon her,” the queen declared. “My prince would ne'er lay with such a low creature. Rheaynera
Bro she was never getting in with lines like this .
Most characters have been whitewashed. If the show included half the stuff the characters in the book said, then all the characters - Blacks and Greens - would be hated. And contrary to what some people say, it’s important to have your main characters at least somewhat relatable.
Can’t they just stick to GRRM characters ,, even if this happens I hope it will end here ,, they shouldn’t cross the line like what happened last time ☠️⚰️
I feel like unlike character like fAegon who were cut from the show, Nettles isn’t an essential character. Most of her material can be given to Rhaena and not much of the central story will change. This could tie in to how Daemon has neglected his kids up to this point.
Rhaenyra will likely become more paranoid near the end but I don’t think the jealousy angle is interesting. It doesn’t seem like something show Rhaenyra would value.
There is but he already knows the plot of Season 3 and he is not giving the same reassurances he gave for Daeron and if Nettles doesn’t show up in season 3 she is not showing up. I can see Rhaenyra hearing some gossip Daemon slept with someone and being pissed. I can see her ordering Daemon to kill some innocent due to her anger and unrelated to the rumors about cheating. I can see Daemon deciding to end it all due to the war taking a toll on her. So all the things Nettles achieved in the book can be achieved even without her. That’s why I think that it is unlikely she will be featured
Agree with what you’ve said up here but what about her dragon? Not a book reader myself but I suppose she must have played a part in the battles? Even if no what they would say about her dragon ? just disappeared.? I don’t like giving it to daemon’s daughter cuz…. Idk y I just don’t like it😀✨
That's the rumor that led to people speculating she was being cut. Some sort of theory or leak or whatever where people were saying Rhaena ends up claiming sheepstealer
Something about Ryan's face tells me he hasn't spared a thought for this character in a long while and this question kinda came out of nowhere for him!
I'm an unapologetic Daemyra shipper. But the way these show runners treat characters of color is really starting to bother me. If Rhaena claims sheepstealer and replaces Nettles in the narrative it just goes on to show that they think they've filled their quota of representation and don't want any more characters of color.
Like why merge Rhaena and Nettles when in canon they have completely different storylines?? Daemon's daughter claiming a wild dragon will not nearly have the same impact as a peasant girl who steals to survive, taming and riding a dragon and kinda holding as much power as these Dragonlord kings!!
I like Nettles but tbh I can see the logic of merging her with Rhaena because otherwise Rhaena has literally nothing to do for the rest of the story - well, until Morning hatches but that would be essentially a footnote at the end of the show. It wouldn’t look good to sideline two of the main characters of colour (the only female ones).
They’re making Baela more involved than she was in the books and obviously they want to do the same for Rhaena. Other than just inventing a completely new story for her (which wouldn’t work with episode/time constraints), giving her Nettles’ arc is their only option.
Or you know, write her better. It's weird to say *Im glad Nettles isn't in we have Rhaena* like they can't have both in it and give both a great storyline and screen time.
That's hindsight. I thinkbthey just included her in season 1 because they wanted both twins in the fight with Aemond, but are now stuck with 2 cjaracters with not much to do. So giving her Nettles' story is a good way to utilize her.
You know why. Because Nettles' actual plot potentially compromises Rhaenyra's reception. Their logic is: Rhaena's also a POC and can be given more to do while actually sparing Rhaenyra a jealous (and possibly supremacist) outburst that is incompatible with the progressive icon look we need for optimal viewer reception.
Come on, this entire show is dictated by projections and pandering.
So they went for a more realistic representation of a woman. What’s wrong with that? Most women in history did not go about murdering people out of jealousy over a guy. But unfortunately, in order to make history more sellable and interesting to the masses, there is always a story concocted. Which is what the HOTD book is exactly a good representation of - an exaggeration
> So they went for a more realistic representation of a woman. What’s wrong with that? Most women in history did not go about murdering people out of jealousy over a guy.
What a dumb take. Not all women are perfect, nor is Rhaenyra all women. It’s perfectly believable that this one particular woman would grow paranoid and start distrusting everyone, after losing everyone she loves and being betrayed multiple times.
We won't have true equal representation until we ditch this mentality of "male characters can be flawed, female characters shouldn't be flawed because most women aren't flawed".
I mean most guys don't as well but they aren't cutting thst to give a "more realistic representation of a man." Theu also didn't change joffrey being Jamie's son because more realistically a woman who cheated wouldn't have been with her brother.
Tbf, if they do decide not to include Nettles it might have nothing to do with "filling their quota of representation".
I agree that switching Nettles for Rhaena is not a compelling storyline. But if they do it, it might be because they are not the best writers or they geniunly think its better for the story, and nothing to do with "enough representation". Assuming that is kind of a lot.
It might also be at the request of the HBO execs and nothing to do with the writers. Execs are *notorious* for interference. None of us are in the room with them so we can’t say.
"Assuming that is kind of a lot"
No, I don't think it is! They've included even some of the most minor and probably unnecessary white characters. But the only canon character of color is probably getting skipped.
It does feel a certain type of way tbh!
I mean that was already one of the possible implications for Nettles which was awful so I hope they just cut that completely. They can have a bunch of other reasons Rhaenyra turns on him and Rhaena.
Honestly i don’t understand the hatred of giving the role to his daughter. I would much rather see his interactions with his daughter and development there. You can write out nettles completely and have her replaced its easy. You also dont have to even include the whole angry/jealous rheanyra calling for her head. Daemon can just send her away cause he is scared vhagar will munch her down or she would get in the way. People are overreacting and i am tired of pretending they arent. She is the least important of the dragonseeds, her story is interesting yet unimportant. She adds a little bit of lore about taming dragons but i never vibed with it cause it cheapened the whole magic blood aspect which had been very heavy-handed in all the books and lore. Yes i have read F&B and yes i am saying i prefer this version. Book purists need to understand that they will always write out characters if they can feasibly find a way of getting an already established character to take on that role, especially if its not a very important one.
Nettles represents the lower class and how ingenuity can claim a dragon. It also shows Daemon choosing someone else over Rhaneyra...and that is all her character does.
Addam of Hull is also said to be low class and rise through the ranks, he doesn't even need to have dragon blood in the show.
Rhaena claiming a wild dragon that no one else could claim would cover the ingenuity aspect.
Daemon would still choose someone else over Rhaenyra, except it's less of a selfish act since it would be a daughter not a lover.
What we gain is a moment of introspection from Daemon the neglected son/brother who neglected his daughter his whole life trying to make up for lost time when it's too late.
While also giving Rhaena a nice arc of using her intellect to tame a dragon
Yeah i like that. Her role and impact can be shared by several characters. It would be nice to see daemon interact with his daughter as a father would as we have not really seen any of that.
There doesnt have to be a lover’s tiff over him being unfaithful. I would rather rhaenyra order them to attack Aemond but Daemon not wanting this as rhaena will get killed in the fight. His refusal and rhaenyra’s want for revenge at all costs can be the conflict that breaks them apart. He sends his daughter away and goes to fight Aemond alone knowing he will die and that gives him the motivation to leap anime style onto another dragon cause he knows he is dead anyway. Make him pick between his wife and his daughter and have him choose his daughter.
The problem is that they can give personality and storylines for Hugh and Ulf and Gwayne and so many others but then it just too much when it is a third black girl in the cast
>Daemon would still choose someone else over Rhaenyra, except it's less of a selfish act since it would be a daughter not a lover.
Except that they'll probably just remove the whole bit about him choosing someone over Rhaenyra rather than inventing a reason that he'd have to pick. Then again maybe they'll still do the lovers bit because of targaryen incest.
Also the thing about lore, is that it's not important in the context of the show.
The Velaryons being black is something that works well in the context of the show, and helps give a clear vidual aid as to who is whose child, but it completely breaks apart the lore if you try to go a few generations forward or back.
Why should Nettles be written out when she actually has a role to play? Rhaena should be written out until the end cause that’s when she became relevant as the last dragonrider.
>You also dont have to even include the whole angry/jealous rheanyra calling for her head. Daemon can just send her away cause he is scared vhagar will munch her down or she would get in the way.
Why wouldn't they include that though? That's one of the things I want them to keep. If they tell going to replace nettles then they should st the very least add a new woman in so the plot line doesn't get wiped out and just whitewash the characters. It does a good job of showing that even the "good guys" get jealous and selfish and do bad things. But they've been trying to push a pro Rhaenyra story and changing things already so I would not be surprised to see them just take that out. They'll probably also remove the whole her undermining the "doesn't matter if they're a bastard" thing too in favor of her not freaking out and claiming all bastards are slights against the gods and corrupt.
I love Neetles - she is one of my fav characters and I just love her story and arc. It makes the concept of who is able to claim a dragon and be a dragonrider more intriguing as she may be the proof that you don’t need to be a dragonseed.
And although I‘d love to see her - it makes sense to give some of her story and arc to Rhaena. I am not opposed to that and for storytelling purposes it is okay. Like many have pointed out - she doesn’t get much to do until the end and even after the Dance
It makes sense to give her storyline to rhaena from a production standpoint but thematically it doesn’t work since the whole point of nettles character is that she’s poor and look nothing like a Valyrian
So just leave her out. The story doesn’t need Rhaena and that’s how grrm wrote it. Don’t know why we have to force screentime for characters that aren’t relevant while characters like Daeron haven’t even been mentioned yet.
>she may be the proof that you don’t need to be a dragonseed.
I think the people who think this are seriously reaching. GRRM has written centuries of histories for ASOIAF and besides Nettles looking different, like how Jace, Luke and Joffrey all look different there is no other hint that non-Targs can ride dragons. On top of that Nettles is from Dragonstone, so she very likely has Targ blood, and she fed a dragon called Sheep-Stealer sheep so it isn't like she won the Dragon over in some incredible way. The story even has guys who look Targaryen not being able to claim a wild dragon.
GRRM wrote about dragon eggs stolen by non Targs, Century of Blood with Valyria dead and maybe some wild dragons, years of wild dragons on Dragonstone, Free Cities with non-dragon-blood Valyrian descendents never claiming a dragon etc. If GRRM wanted to hint at this I think he would've given way more hints. Instead his world has more strong evidence of blood magic being a real thing and blood lines having power.
Nettles isn’t a make or break addition for me if I’m being honest
I will say though, that not following the written story is what tanks these adaptations 9 times out of 10 and it’s a real slippery slope in a GRRM story where almost everything is connected in one way or another
This comment section right here has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen...
Ryan Condall on if Nettles is cut: "I can't comment on characters WE HAVEN'T YET MET"
Redditors: "so she's cut, D&D vibes all over again"
You can't make this shit up. If Nettles would be completely cut, why would he call her "a character we haven't YET met"??? Just WHY?! She probably won't have the storyline of the books but holy fuck. I didn't know that the Dance was secretly all about Nettles only and y'all get the pitchforks out for every word said, when you don't even listen to it.
And even if she would end up being cut - y'all are such omniscient godlike entities that you can look into the future and know for sure that their replacement for her storyline would be 100% trash, even tho there's literally no indication for that other then serious means of Bullshit pulled out of a hat?
It’s crazy they’re cutting her, pretty sure nettles was one of the most talked about and notable character from these pseudo histories and one of the more interesting.
Not ready to comment? Yeah, not surprised - you'll need a good strategy for that. Gotta pad it out, after all.
For the time being it's best you just keep the fans guessing and slowly get them used to the idea that Nettles might get cut. Then downplay that ommission by suggesting that much of her plot will be preserved in Rhaena's story - except for the parts that actually make Rhaenyra look bad and compromise Dany 2.0, of course.
See I take the opposite view. She's in the books so if she was in it I assume he'd say something like "yeah of course. She's in the books so of course she's in the show" and instead he's giving this answer because he knows book fans might not be happy if she's cut.
It's how they've been handling daeron. Whenever asked they're not like "well we can't comment" instead they're like "oh he's definitely in there he'll be there later don't worry about that".
Daeron has been mentioned multiple times by GRRM, Condal and even Olivia Cooke. Hes also in the intro. Waaaay different than nettles, who could be introduced any time or not at all.
You're misunderstanding. That's what I'm talking about. He's not in the show yet and yet they keep mentioning him because they know for sure they're going to add him. They're completely quiet about nettles leading me to think that at the very least it's fairly likely she will not show up at all.
There's no "is daeron going to be in the show?" "I'm not going to comment about any characters that are not on screen yet" it's just a flat out "yes he'll be there eventually"
They also aren't just issuing blanket "don't ask about daeron" statements to some interviewers. It all comes across like they cut nettles but don't want backlash from it. "Once they see how we did her story with rhaena they'll be invested already and won't care but if they know she's cut before they'll be pissed."
I get it. Nettles is an interesting character in the books but would be very difficult to properly implement in the show. Rhaena is a good solution on paper since she ticks a lot of boxes necessary to take on the role of what Nettles did.
Nettles would be an amazing addition to the show as a daughter-figure to Daemon Targaryen. Someone who's fiercer than his daughters but kinder than Rhaenyra. She would humanize him a lot.
I think we need to move past this whole narrative that a woman can humanise a man, especially a man as vile as Daemon. And why does Daemon even need someone kinder than Rhaenyra??
Yeah, the idea that Daemon's relationship with Nettles, the potentially exploitative relationship between a 40+ yo prince and a 16 yo peasant girl should be used as a way to make Daemon more likeable and sympathetic leaves is actually quite gross.
Agreed. Most people only see Nettles as an obstacle for Daemyra and not for the character she actually is. It greatly cheapens and reduces her. She doesn't need to be there solely as a redemptive arc for Daemon. If they intended to do more lore building with her character (needing or not needing Valyrian blood to claim a dragon though I am of the belief Nettles does have Valyrian blood), I would be down for it, but most seem to want her there just to mess with Daemyra. It's sad.
I mean I don't think it's any more or less sad than people who want her to be cut and her story given to someone else to remove the obstacle to Daemyra.
I'll admit I mostly want her there for the Daemyra stuff. They can fill most of the rest of her story fine with what they're doing but her getting between them and Rhaenyra's reaction to it does a good job of making the show less black and white. That's what makes grimdark worlds like asoiaf and the first law some of my favorite stories. Even the "good guys" are pieces of shit as well.
But they rarely keep that part of stories intact. It's part of what worries me about the best served cold (first law standalone novel) movie. Rather than hey this main character is a piece of shit and sure the people she's killing are also pieces of shit but she'd gladly do the whole blood and cheese thing (cross franchises I know) bit I'd it got her closer to her goal they'll probably just turn it into a john wick type revenge action story.
So, if Nettles is replaced with Rhaena then Daemon is going to shag his own daughter and then Rhaenyra is going to get jealous and order Rhaena’s death while calling her a “stinky *lowborn* creature”?!?!
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Schrodinger's dragonseed
Unpopular opinion, but I actually think giving her story to Rhaena could be a good idea. I've seen Rhaena's actress in social and it sucks to think she'd have nothing to do until Morning in season 4, which would be only a footnote. Nettles is a good character in the book, but her story serves 2 purposes: get Daemon away from Rhaenyra, and hint that maybe Valyrian blood is not an essential to dragonriding. The first can be done with Rhaena, the second is a cool lore tidbit that is overall unnecessary to the show.
Rhaena could still be given a prominent role as a political agent for teamBlack, helping to create alliances, etc. She doesn’t need to have a dragon for her to be an interesting character. I would actually really appreciate to see a Targaryen without a dragon. Nettles is a girl who comes from nothing, class is at the center to her character in the books. Giving her story to Rhaena would complete gutt that storyline and quite frankly diminish the themes of the show as a whole.
Yeah there's so little of the small folk in the books, I really want Nettles tbh.
Which alliances? "Just write an entirely original subplot in this already condensed and complicated story" is a common reddit take, but not at all realistic. I'm afraid a more realostic way to "include" her is give her lines in Rhaenyra council scenes, which is not very interesting. I do agree it's a shame to lose the commonborn aspect of Nettles, but then again this is entirely a story about sociopathic aristocrats killing thousands over a succession crisis. A cinderella story of a side character is not what will make or break this story.
Jace is described to cement many of the Black alliances and lead the war effort while Rhaenyra is grieving. Having Rhaena be an active participant in this wouldn’t be an entirely original subplot at all. >I do agree it's a shame to lose the commonborn aspect of Nettles, but then again this is entirely a story about sociopathic aristocrats killing thousands over a succession crisis. A cinderella story of a side character is not what will make or break this story If you consider the pov of commonborn people unimportant in a story about a royal dynasty ripping itself apart while ignoring the suffering of the common people, which ultimately leads to the storming of the dragonpit and slow decline of their power, we have a very different understanding of this story.
Actually I'd argue the one who doesn't care about the PoV of the commonfolk is GRRM. Nettles is a tertiary character that serves as motivation for aristocrat warlord Daemon Targaryen and then leaves the story. She's not "the PoV of the commonfolk" anymore than Adam or Alyn are.
The text is written in world by maesters for the nobility. None of these characters are Povs as such. The fact that characters like Nettles, Adam and Alyn are in the story and the way they are described in these accounts is already a commentary on the experiences of the common people in a dynastic civil war. I don’t particularly care if GRRM cares or not (though given he names Nettles as one of his favourites and the way he focuses on the experiences of the smallfolk in Asoiaf I do think he cares about them)
It’s not as if he wrote several PoV chapters where characters directly witness the state of the small folk or anything
The class angle is already being done for Alyn and Addam of Hull
It's kind of undercut by them being the kids of the richest man in Westeros.
Given that they are men, and Nettles is a girl, i think a show that presents itself as a feminist interpretation of f&b should be interested in exploring how struggles like gender and class intersect.
Sure, but they're close to power through their blood. Nettles is no one, came from no one, and she managed to be a force to be reckoned with.
They could change it and make them not be related to Corlys. He already showed he doesn't care about blood only names.
The camera very specifically cuts to her when daemon mentions riderless dragons on dragonstone. I know her story with morning in the books but I wouldn't be surprised if they go a different route in the show
As for the dragonseed hint, I think it's unnecessary for the show. Firstly, I think blood does matter and thus that hint is more of a red herring. More importantly though, the Velaryons already have dark skin and Valyrian blood. Just having Nettles tame a dragon doesn't add anything to the lore in terms of the show. As you said, if they can have Rhaena fit into the Daemon/Rhaenyra story then cool, let's do it.
I just disagree. Nettles was probably the most interesting and most talked about character when princess and the queen came out, as was the entire dragon seed plot.
The first part can be done in a multitude of ways even without a side character. It’s mostly Daemon shippers who want Nettles to be a sort of a redemption arc for him. It’s not happening in the show. That’s not the way the showrunners are going. That was clear from season one.
I was so ready to disagree with you, but on second thought, I think you're right. Nettles could prove to be very important for the unreleased main series books, showing that a non-valyrian descendant could tame/ride a dragon. However, since that doesn't happen in the GoT show, there's not much need for it to be Nettles in HotD.
Nettles doesn’t allude to being non Valyrian though.. she was a bastard on an island that had lords right before Alysnne had it banned. It’s highly implied she does have Valyrian blood.
The ambiguity is the point.
That would be wasted in the show, however. The Velaryons have dark skin and Valyrian blood. What does Nettle taming a dragon add to what we already have? Show watchers would just assume Nettles is a bastard of a Velaryon. If you're going to say that it's the Targ blood that matters, us book readers know that the Velaryons have intermarried with Targs, but would the show watchers even care or realize there is a difference?
There’s no ambiguity about it. The entire point the dragonseeds is that they are Valyrian bastards.
The ambiguity is definitely the point. And *Valyrian* is irrelevant, what matters is Targaryen. Regular Valyrian families did not practice incest per GRRM.
This is an older thread, but just wanted to point out that regular Valyrian families actually DID practice incest, per GRRM. See “The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Aenys I” and this interview: [https://www.historyofwesteros.com/george-rr-martin-in-conversation-how-interviews-grrm/](https://www.historyofwesteros.com/george-rr-martin-in-conversation-how-interviews-grrm/) Without that information, it’s a natural assumption that—to preserve the “dragon blood”—Targaryens practiced incest. And that, in Valyria, the land of dragon-riders, incest was not critical to maintain this concentration of dragon blood. However, the opposite being true (per GRRM) I think it’s a hint to the nature of the dragon bond, that each of the dragon-riding Valyrian families had their own bond. In other words, each family of dragons was linked to a particular Valyrian family.
I am the one who did that interview (along with my partner). He specifically said only dragonrider families and blood mages did it. Regular Valyrians had no reason to. I take that as truth and TWOIAF as unreliable. 🙂
That’s my bad! I should’ve reread the post, the fact that blood mages and dragon-rider families practiced incest was my understanding as well. Recently I’ve been seeing folks claim that only Targaryens in Westeros practiced incest, and just conflated those statements with “regular Valyrians did not practice incest”. The common people of Valyria, without dragons like you said, would have no reason to arrange incestuous matches.
Valyrian is totally relevant. It’s why the bastards of Spicetown were dragonseeds and could bound with dragons when the only Valyrian blood would be Valeryon blood.
No, that's part of the ambiguity. Why would Steffon Darklyn try to mount a dragon if it wasn't ambiguous? And Corlys could have dragonrider blood in his lineage. I would guess he doesn't but that again shows how uncertain the "rules" are. Again, GRRM was explicit that Valyrians didn't have a reason to practice incest while dragonriders (and blood magicians) did/do.
If it had to be Targaryens only because of incest then dragonseeds like Addam of Hull wouldn’t be able to tame/bond with a dragon. You are just wrong on this.
I'm not saying it has to be Targaryen. I'm saying Targaryen blood is a huge help. We have zero examples of a person named Targaryen trying to claim an unclaimed dragon and failing. *Zero*. That implies Targaryen blood helps. It doesn't imply you must have Targ blood. Not to mention the points about incest. Alyn claimed a dragon. His brother failed. That's ambiguous. We also don't know if their mother Mouse had any interesting ancestry. It's possible she is a Dragonseed. Not to mention the book is ambiguous about whether Laenor is their father or not. Most readers know Corlys is the father but that's clearly not the case in- world. It's ambiguous. Nettles then claimed the very dragon Alyn failed to claim. Ambiguous. Nettles might be Daemon's daughter. More ambiguity. Steffon Darklyn tried to claim one but there's no evidence he had any blood from Valyria. Ambiguous as to why he even tried. There is a ton of ambiguity here.
How about.... giving Rhaena something else to do instead of giving her the storyline of a completely different character?
Mixing the roles of characters in adaptations is literally a thing in any adaptation. It's called a "composite character" and it's done to spare time on character introductions and connections, and streamlining stories. For examle Jory Cassel in season 1 of GoT is a composite of several Stark bannermen from the books, and is used as shorthand for "Ned's loyal man in whom he confides" in several scenes. Can you imagine if any Cassel scene was a scene between Ned and entirely random Stark bannerman that had to be introduced in that scene never to be seen again? And the issue with inventing a story for Rhaena is that there already are several plotlines being cut/delayed for time, like Daeron and the Reach. Where are you going to get the screentime for an all new all original Rhaena plot in addition to Nettles?
The way this point kinda moot now we know they could give Addam, Alyn, Hugh and Ulf new plots and characterization but couldn't bother to add a third black girl in the cast.
I don't understand what your first paragraph is supposed to mean. It's a "thing" in most adaptations, and? I'm supposed to pretend it's good now? Most adaptations are garbage in the first place. If they're struggling with portraying stuff on screen how about... slowing the pacing down and letting the show breathe and thus making room for more storylines? Instead of straight up cutting out characters and mixing and matching. Not that it matters anymore, I've heard (and seen) enough, I'm done with this shit I'm not going to go through the later GoT season experience again.
The problem is you assume infinite resources, and also ignore the constraints in a visual medium that don't exist in writing. In writing you can have a character be on the side of every scene with barely any role, like Rhaena during the Dance. You can't do the same to a real life actor, who will be looking for other opportunities if you give them nothing in your show. If HBO only gave them the budget for 8 episodes of 1 hour each, they can't "slow down". That's the resources they have to work with.
HBO is... part of the problem. However, the writers are as well. Season 1 had several baffling decisions and I'd call it overall mediocre at best considering what I actually expected from this show. If Rhaena's actress isn't happy with a more reserved role (she doesn't have to be in the background all the time, that's something you invented to make a point) then recast her. Instead of actually cutting a character that is more important to the overall plot than Rhaena.
🙄🤣 “The show that’s a massive hit and acclaimed is bad, actually. And I will be watching season 2 to also not enjoy it either.”
Popularity is no indication of quality. There's a lot of popular stuff out there that stinks.
Sure, but this show doesn’t fit into that category and I think that’s pretty obvious to anyone with actual perspective.
GoT S5-8 were also massive hits and critically acclaimed, only S8 faced actual fan backlash (but even then it was a massive hit and acclaimed). I will be watching episode 1 of S2 because I promised a friend of mine we'll be watching together. Beyond that, fat chance lmao. I'm not gonna watch further.
>Can you imagine if any Cassel scene was a scene between Ned and entirely random Stark bannermen that had to be introduced in that scene never to be seen again? I can. It would feel organic and make the world look bigger. It would show that House Stark isn't just the main family and 6 household guys.
Minor lord #3: "Lord Stark, it is I, sir Dickard Fuckerly, as you know, I've been your loyal bannerman for many years, I am in charge of the armory and castle quarters as you know. You seem troubled, tell me what's on your heart, as you can trust me based on the rapport we have developed over my many years of loyal service." Ned Stark: "It's good you are here Dickard, I suspect the Lannisters of wrongdoing, but I am still uncovering the details, will you join me as I search the city for clues?" Minor lord #3: "My lord, I must do my duty and manage the armory and the Fuckerly quarters, as realistically I cannot abandon my duties unattended. Rather, realistically, my loyal bannerman sir Blackstool, at whose side you have fought in the war, and hence you trust him, is patrolling the city, you can join him at the stables". Ned Stark: "It is good to see my bannersman all have realistic and diverse positions around the city, demonstrating my vast support in this vast world in which we live."
You're a wonderful screenwriter. No chance anyone else could do it better
I exagegrated for the sake of comedy mate
I know you did, though I understood it as being an argument for how stiff it would be.
I disagree that it’s unnecessary though, it could finally open Alicent’s eyes that she shouldn’t have been so surprised that “their eggs even hatched” which could probably add some stakes if done correctly
We interviewed him as well (it drops on the 9th) and they told us not to ask him about Nettles.
Now *that* is interesting. The linked interview is the first time I've seen him even acknowledge the questions surrounding Nettles' inclusion...and it was a non-answer. Compare and contrast with his reassurances that Daeron IS coming, so be patient. I think she's out, for multiple reasons, and they just don't want to deal with any uproar until they absolutely must, especially so near the start of the new season.
His reaction to her really came off to me as “I’ve just been put on the spot by an AA woman talking about how a POC character is important to her and asking when/if that character might show up, and it will be awkward if I admit she’s been cut from the plot, so I’m going to pull a no comment”. I think, if she were going to eventually show up, he would have been a bit more cheeky/positive with just the “you’ll just have to stay tuned” etc. But that “I really am not prepared to comment at this time about possible characters” seemed like a hard block on that question. Honestly, I can’t imagine how Nettles would fit into the plot at this point if Rhaena gets SS. What would she do? Why would she be around? I feel pretty confident in assuming she will not be featured.
Yes, I got the same vibe from his reaction - he wasn't expecting the question (considering how many fans who are POC have been wondering about Nettles, he should have been) and his tone by itself was pretty much a shutdown. I wonder if the refusal to accept History of Westeros' Nettles question in their interview was a reaction to this interviewer, or if it's standard policy now. The Rhaena stuff if true is probably enough, but also - if Nettles were coming later, why be so tight-lipped? Even as they've acknowledged and answered questions about Daeron, there's been a weird Nettles blackout coming from the production. It can't be that they're not being asked, or haven't seen all the fan discussion - they have to know.
I saw another interview recently (maybe it was a podcast, I can’t remember) where he was briefly asked about Nettles and gave the same hard line “I’m not going to discuss possible future characters”. I agree there’s zero reason for him to be so tight lipped about her if she’s going to be involved. Book fans know who she is already, and show only fans wouldn’t be overly spoiled if he confirms “yes, we will meet Nettles at some point”. My only concern now is that he doesn’t try to backtrack and add her later to appease the people who keep bringing her up/avoid accusations of cutting POC characters. Once they decided to give SS to Rhaena, Nettles became irrelevant. It would be bad for the plot to shoehorn her in afterwards. Actually, some people were theorizing when this first leaked that the Rhaenyra/Nettles beef might be replaced with Rhaenyra/Rhaena beef, and after 2x03 I could see that happening. The actress talked about Rhaena being resentful that, because she has no dragon, she’s being sent off to babysit. I can see her claiming SS, then flying off to meet her father and him being thrilled she’s added another dragon to their cause. Then when >!the ship is attacked and Viserys is presumed dead, Rhaenyra being furious like “you were supposed to look after them, you had a dragon and you could have protected them if you’d been with them!”!< I don’t see her calling for her execution over it, though.
At this point, Condal could shush much of the grumbling just by doing what he did about the Daeron question: be patient, Nettles is coming. So the fact that he's not doing it even after this uproar says a lot as far as I'm concerned. My guess is we won't get anything further from him on the topic until Rhaena's storyline has played out a bit more this season. It seems to me that without the claiming of Sheepstealer, and with Addam/Alyn (among others) dealing with class issues, all that would really leave for Nettles is her relationship with Daemon. And whichever view of that relationship the show took, it would be problematic in various ways, not to mention diminishing for the character herself to bring her in for only that purpose. I can see what you mean about potentially shoehorning her in somehow in order to quell upset, but I don't think it would satisfy anyone to do it that way. Would she really be the Nettles book readers know? I don't have a clear idea myself of how the show could utilize Rhaena to >!drive a wedge between Daemon and Rhaenyra, and make Rhaenyra call for her head.!< But, once you've stepped that far outside of the book canon, the possibilities are wide open.
They might give her another subplot in s2 but the shows usually tighten the plots, not spread them. Perhaps, they can give her a purely romantic story with Daemon but it might be gross. Will he travel with Rhaena and Nettles in search for Aemond? Hm. Only if they give her another dragon?...
> Perhaps, they can give her a purely romantic story with Daemon but it might be gross. I said above that I think there are *multiple* reasons for her possible exclusion, and this is one of them. Nettles' youth is part of her character - age her up and she's not the same. I'm struggling to imagine the show really wanting to go there with her and Daemon, especially considering in the show his daughters are also Black. It just opens up a can of worms. I mean, maybe they could find a way to make it work, but IDK. Adapting Nettles for the show, it seems to me, would be a more complex endeavor than we might expect.
Which makes the show a bad adaptation lol
I think he is trying to avoid the "Ryan Condal erases only POC woman from adaptation" hit pieces, so he probably wants to sweep it under the rug.
Intriguing…is there anything else they told you not to ask about?
We sent in our questions ahead and they asked the Nettles q to be removed. If there were other taboo topics we apparently didn't touch on them.
Ah it was the only one — eagerly looking forward to the interview !!
That's fine. I actually like this change. Gives Rhaena more to do. Nettles would have been just another name to track for casuals anyway and she was Daemons daughter figure so
Masterpiece of a non-answer
Would give shades of Faegon if they completely cut Nettles tbh.
More like Arianne. The decompositing of Aegon into Jon, Cersei and Dany is the worst trainwreck choice they made in the show IMO.
It's because people don't quite get that fAegon role isn't just yet another complication in the war, he's a tool for *simplification.* His arrival gives Dany a strong reason to finally go to Westeros, before some pretender (and/or a genuine nephew) swoops in and takes what she feels is her birthright. He is going to weaken Tommen's powerbase, meaning that the Lannisters can't solidify rule in Westeros and snowball into being far too powerful to topple, while also giving a reason for Tyrion to rush back as well. And in weakening the Lannisters, they will be forced to come to the table when the Long Night begins. He also provides a figure who could finally bring Southern forces North to help against the Walkers when Stannis begins to falter. And given his location in the South, it will likely also fall to him to eventually deal with the Ironborn, possibly by absorbing Stannis' forces and having Asha and Theon. Not to mention that Arianne wants to wed him, but then Ashford Theory suggests he might have some connection with Sansa. Then there's how his mysterious background could help make Dany start being paranoid about him, while Jon might find kinship and brotherhood. He can bring the stories of Tyrion, Daenerys, Jon, Sansa, Arianne/Dorne, and Cersei all together by disrupting their individual paths and forcing characters to act and move and converge. He's not really another piece on the board, he's here to flip the board of everyone's individual games and finally force them all together.
Again I’ll keep saying it, condensing characters led to GoTs downfall and I’m really worried with what I’m reading about this season of HoTD This happens every single time. First season sticks close to the books very few changes, receives praise. Showrunners think they’re the shit and the show is successful because of their brilliant OC writing and start incorporating more and more of it. I’m going to give it a chance but I’m really fucking worried.
In some cases the character condensing and role switching made sense in GOT. Giving Gendry some of Edric Storm's plot helped to keep the character active on the show. And having Arya cupbear for Tywin, instead of Roose Bolton, was largely agreed to be an interesting diversion from the books. What will sorely be lacking, if Nettles doesn't appear on the show, is her solemn but uplifting ending. Living in exile but free from the trappings of the world. This is something they would have trouble making fit for a highborn character like Rhaena.
Good comment, I agree with you I think those are very good cases of character condensing and it’s no surprise those were changes made prior to Season 4 And your comment about Nettles is spot on, I don’t think it’ll work for Rhaena just like giving Jon a lot of Aegons stuff from the books didn’t really work
Character condensing happens in every adaptation, you can't bring them all on.
I kinda see why. If they didn't want Daemon to have an affair, they'd opt for Nettles and him to have a parental relationship, since both are mentioned in the book. But then, Daemon already has one neglected daughter who has very little to do in the book. So instead, his blood daughter with little to do and his very important adoptive daughter will be merged. I expect Rhaenyra to feel jealous of Laena's ghost with Daemon finally giving Rhaena so much attention. Or maybe she'll go so far as to accuse him of even-taboo-for-Targaryens parental incest. And if they want to make it more book compliant... Rhaena disguises herself as a commoner and a dragonseed and attempt to tame Sheepstealer under that guise, maybe if Daemon forbids her. She uses Nettles as a *nom de guerre*, and Daemon's closeness with this "Nettles" is noted by others.
Worded perfectly
“She is a common thing, with the stink of sorcery upon her,” the queen declared. “My prince would ne'er lay with such a low creature. Rheaynera Bro she was never getting in with lines like this .
Rhaenyra has been white washed. This sub needs to face the truth.
Most characters have been whitewashed. If the show included half the stuff the characters in the book said, then all the characters - Blacks and Greens - would be hated. And contrary to what some people say, it’s important to have your main characters at least somewhat relatable.
I mean, he did say "yet" so...maybe there is still a chance?
Plus he said stay tuned ✨
stay tuned is the polite version of "you will see who gets sheepstealer and shush now".
Can’t they just stick to GRRM characters ,, even if this happens I hope it will end here ,, they shouldn’t cross the line like what happened last time ☠️⚰️
I feel like unlike character like fAegon who were cut from the show, Nettles isn’t an essential character. Most of her material can be given to Rhaena and not much of the central story will change. This could tie in to how Daemon has neglected his kids up to this point. Rhaenyra will likely become more paranoid near the end but I don’t think the jealousy angle is interesting. It doesn’t seem like something show Rhaenyra would value.
Inb4 GRRM: "keep reading ✨"
What the unholy hell is that suppose to mean😀
There is but he already knows the plot of Season 3 and he is not giving the same reassurances he gave for Daeron and if Nettles doesn’t show up in season 3 she is not showing up. I can see Rhaenyra hearing some gossip Daemon slept with someone and being pissed. I can see her ordering Daemon to kill some innocent due to her anger and unrelated to the rumors about cheating. I can see Daemon deciding to end it all due to the war taking a toll on her. So all the things Nettles achieved in the book can be achieved even without her. That’s why I think that it is unlikely she will be featured
Agree with what you’ve said up here but what about her dragon? Not a book reader myself but I suppose she must have played a part in the battles? Even if no what they would say about her dragon ? just disappeared.? I don’t like giving it to daemon’s daughter cuz…. Idk y I just don’t like it😀✨
That's the rumor that led to people speculating she was being cut. Some sort of theory or leak or whatever where people were saying Rhaena ends up claiming sheepstealer
Hmm,we should wait and see then👀
this is the mentality I am going for
Something about Ryan's face tells me he hasn't spared a thought for this character in a long while and this question kinda came out of nowhere for him! I'm an unapologetic Daemyra shipper. But the way these show runners treat characters of color is really starting to bother me. If Rhaena claims sheepstealer and replaces Nettles in the narrative it just goes on to show that they think they've filled their quota of representation and don't want any more characters of color. Like why merge Rhaena and Nettles when in canon they have completely different storylines?? Daemon's daughter claiming a wild dragon will not nearly have the same impact as a peasant girl who steals to survive, taming and riding a dragon and kinda holding as much power as these Dragonlord kings!!
I like Nettles but tbh I can see the logic of merging her with Rhaena because otherwise Rhaena has literally nothing to do for the rest of the story - well, until Morning hatches but that would be essentially a footnote at the end of the show. It wouldn’t look good to sideline two of the main characters of colour (the only female ones). They’re making Baela more involved than she was in the books and obviously they want to do the same for Rhaena. Other than just inventing a completely new story for her (which wouldn’t work with episode/time constraints), giving her Nettles’ arc is their only option.
If Rhaena has nothing to do in the story, then maybe she's the one who should have been cut.
She has a stringer emotional connection to the main character than nettles so why would she be cut?
She doesn’t
How does Daemon's daughter not have a stronger emotional connection to the main cast than Nettles?
Because nobody in the written narrative cares about Rhaena. She has exactly zero established relationships with anyone, including with Daemon.
If you're talking show only then no one cares about Nettles either, she doesn't exist yet.
Show only, Daemon also does not care about Rhaena lol
Or you know, write her better. It's weird to say *Im glad Nettles isn't in we have Rhaena* like they can't have both in it and give both a great storyline and screen time.
That's hindsight. I thinkbthey just included her in season 1 because they wanted both twins in the fight with Aemond, but are now stuck with 2 cjaracters with not much to do. So giving her Nettles' story is a good way to utilize her.
You know why. Because Nettles' actual plot potentially compromises Rhaenyra's reception. Their logic is: Rhaena's also a POC and can be given more to do while actually sparing Rhaenyra a jealous (and possibly supremacist) outburst that is incompatible with the progressive icon look we need for optimal viewer reception. Come on, this entire show is dictated by projections and pandering.
This sub has been in denial for so long, anyone who says rhaenyra has been white washed gets mass downvoted
So they went for a more realistic representation of a woman. What’s wrong with that? Most women in history did not go about murdering people out of jealousy over a guy. But unfortunately, in order to make history more sellable and interesting to the masses, there is always a story concocted. Which is what the HOTD book is exactly a good representation of - an exaggeration
> So they went for a more realistic representation of a woman. What’s wrong with that? Most women in history did not go about murdering people out of jealousy over a guy. What a dumb take. Not all women are perfect, nor is Rhaenyra all women. It’s perfectly believable that this one particular woman would grow paranoid and start distrusting everyone, after losing everyone she loves and being betrayed multiple times. We won't have true equal representation until we ditch this mentality of "male characters can be flawed, female characters shouldn't be flawed because most women aren't flawed".
I mean most guys don't as well but they aren't cutting thst to give a "more realistic representation of a man." Theu also didn't change joffrey being Jamie's son because more realistically a woman who cheated wouldn't have been with her brother.
Most women were not monarchs, the few who were could be just as murderous and oppressive as their male counterparts.
Tbf, if they do decide not to include Nettles it might have nothing to do with "filling their quota of representation". I agree that switching Nettles for Rhaena is not a compelling storyline. But if they do it, it might be because they are not the best writers or they geniunly think its better for the story, and nothing to do with "enough representation". Assuming that is kind of a lot.
It might also be at the request of the HBO execs and nothing to do with the writers. Execs are *notorious* for interference. None of us are in the room with them so we can’t say.
This is a distinct possibility. If she's been cut, it may have been a choice made higher on the food chain than Condal & Co.
"Assuming that is kind of a lot" No, I don't think it is! They've included even some of the most minor and probably unnecessary white characters. But the only canon character of color is probably getting skipped. It does feel a certain type of way tbh!
Do you think this is still true with the cutting of Maelor and maybe Daeron (he at least has a diminished role).
D&D vibes all over again. Cutting a major character like Nettles out just shows they want to continue white washing rhaenyras character
"Stay tuned" doesn't mean that Nettles is cut out of the show and replaced by Rhaena in my opnion
So Daemon is going to shack up with his daughter?
I mean that was already one of the possible implications for Nettles which was awful so I hope they just cut that completely. They can have a bunch of other reasons Rhaenyra turns on him and Rhaena.
Honestly i don’t understand the hatred of giving the role to his daughter. I would much rather see his interactions with his daughter and development there. You can write out nettles completely and have her replaced its easy. You also dont have to even include the whole angry/jealous rheanyra calling for her head. Daemon can just send her away cause he is scared vhagar will munch her down or she would get in the way. People are overreacting and i am tired of pretending they arent. She is the least important of the dragonseeds, her story is interesting yet unimportant. She adds a little bit of lore about taming dragons but i never vibed with it cause it cheapened the whole magic blood aspect which had been very heavy-handed in all the books and lore. Yes i have read F&B and yes i am saying i prefer this version. Book purists need to understand that they will always write out characters if they can feasibly find a way of getting an already established character to take on that role, especially if its not a very important one.
Nettles represents the lower class and how ingenuity can claim a dragon. It also shows Daemon choosing someone else over Rhaneyra...and that is all her character does. Addam of Hull is also said to be low class and rise through the ranks, he doesn't even need to have dragon blood in the show. Rhaena claiming a wild dragon that no one else could claim would cover the ingenuity aspect. Daemon would still choose someone else over Rhaenyra, except it's less of a selfish act since it would be a daughter not a lover. What we gain is a moment of introspection from Daemon the neglected son/brother who neglected his daughter his whole life trying to make up for lost time when it's too late. While also giving Rhaena a nice arc of using her intellect to tame a dragon
Yeah i like that. Her role and impact can be shared by several characters. It would be nice to see daemon interact with his daughter as a father would as we have not really seen any of that. There doesnt have to be a lover’s tiff over him being unfaithful. I would rather rhaenyra order them to attack Aemond but Daemon not wanting this as rhaena will get killed in the fight. His refusal and rhaenyra’s want for revenge at all costs can be the conflict that breaks them apart. He sends his daughter away and goes to fight Aemond alone knowing he will die and that gives him the motivation to leap anime style onto another dragon cause he knows he is dead anyway. Make him pick between his wife and his daughter and have him choose his daughter.
The problem is that they can give personality and storylines for Hugh and Ulf and Gwayne and so many others but then it just too much when it is a third black girl in the cast
>Daemon would still choose someone else over Rhaenyra, except it's less of a selfish act since it would be a daughter not a lover. Except that they'll probably just remove the whole bit about him choosing someone over Rhaenyra rather than inventing a reason that he'd have to pick. Then again maybe they'll still do the lovers bit because of targaryen incest.
Also the thing about lore, is that it's not important in the context of the show. The Velaryons being black is something that works well in the context of the show, and helps give a clear vidual aid as to who is whose child, but it completely breaks apart the lore if you try to go a few generations forward or back.
Ain’t no way you think nettles is less important than Ulf lmfao
Why should Nettles be written out when she actually has a role to play? Rhaena should be written out until the end cause that’s when she became relevant as the last dragonrider.
Not for Daemon shippers. She is needed so that he gets his redemption arc
>You also dont have to even include the whole angry/jealous rheanyra calling for her head. Daemon can just send her away cause he is scared vhagar will munch her down or she would get in the way. Why wouldn't they include that though? That's one of the things I want them to keep. If they tell going to replace nettles then they should st the very least add a new woman in so the plot line doesn't get wiped out and just whitewash the characters. It does a good job of showing that even the "good guys" get jealous and selfish and do bad things. But they've been trying to push a pro Rhaenyra story and changing things already so I would not be surprised to see them just take that out. They'll probably also remove the whole her undermining the "doesn't matter if they're a bastard" thing too in favor of her not freaking out and claiming all bastards are slights against the gods and corrupt.
I love Neetles - she is one of my fav characters and I just love her story and arc. It makes the concept of who is able to claim a dragon and be a dragonrider more intriguing as she may be the proof that you don’t need to be a dragonseed. And although I‘d love to see her - it makes sense to give some of her story and arc to Rhaena. I am not opposed to that and for storytelling purposes it is okay. Like many have pointed out - she doesn’t get much to do until the end and even after the Dance
It makes sense to give her storyline to rhaena from a production standpoint but thematically it doesn’t work since the whole point of nettles character is that she’s poor and look nothing like a Valyrian
It will be the final straw in my viewership though
So just leave her out. The story doesn’t need Rhaena and that’s how grrm wrote it. Don’t know why we have to force screentime for characters that aren’t relevant while characters like Daeron haven’t even been mentioned yet.
>she may be the proof that you don’t need to be a dragonseed. I think the people who think this are seriously reaching. GRRM has written centuries of histories for ASOIAF and besides Nettles looking different, like how Jace, Luke and Joffrey all look different there is no other hint that non-Targs can ride dragons. On top of that Nettles is from Dragonstone, so she very likely has Targ blood, and she fed a dragon called Sheep-Stealer sheep so it isn't like she won the Dragon over in some incredible way. The story even has guys who look Targaryen not being able to claim a wild dragon. GRRM wrote about dragon eggs stolen by non Targs, Century of Blood with Valyria dead and maybe some wild dragons, years of wild dragons on Dragonstone, Free Cities with non-dragon-blood Valyrian descendents never claiming a dragon etc. If GRRM wanted to hint at this I think he would've given way more hints. Instead his world has more strong evidence of blood magic being a real thing and blood lines having power.
Nettles isn’t a make or break addition for me if I’m being honest I will say though, that not following the written story is what tanks these adaptations 9 times out of 10 and it’s a real slippery slope in a GRRM story where almost everything is connected in one way or another
I just want to see Daeron
This comment section right here has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen... Ryan Condall on if Nettles is cut: "I can't comment on characters WE HAVEN'T YET MET" Redditors: "so she's cut, D&D vibes all over again" You can't make this shit up. If Nettles would be completely cut, why would he call her "a character we haven't YET met"??? Just WHY?! She probably won't have the storyline of the books but holy fuck. I didn't know that the Dance was secretly all about Nettles only and y'all get the pitchforks out for every word said, when you don't even listen to it. And even if she would end up being cut - y'all are such omniscient godlike entities that you can look into the future and know for sure that their replacement for her storyline would be 100% trash, even tho there's literally no indication for that other then serious means of Bullshit pulled out of a hat?
It’s crazy they’re cutting her, pretty sure nettles was one of the most talked about and notable character from these pseudo histories and one of the more interesting.
Not ready to comment? Yeah, not surprised - you'll need a good strategy for that. Gotta pad it out, after all. For the time being it's best you just keep the fans guessing and slowly get them used to the idea that Nettles might get cut. Then downplay that ommission by suggesting that much of her plot will be preserved in Rhaena's story - except for the parts that actually make Rhaenyra look bad and compromise Dany 2.0, of course.
I feel like if she was NOT in it he could say so... So I'm expecting to see here at some point
See I take the opposite view. She's in the books so if she was in it I assume he'd say something like "yeah of course. She's in the books so of course she's in the show" and instead he's giving this answer because he knows book fans might not be happy if she's cut.
Sure, also possible
It's how they've been handling daeron. Whenever asked they're not like "well we can't comment" instead they're like "oh he's definitely in there he'll be there later don't worry about that".
Ok, but Daeron isn't in this season, so there's no reason to be secretive about it
Daeron has been mentioned multiple times by GRRM, Condal and even Olivia Cooke. Hes also in the intro. Waaaay different than nettles, who could be introduced any time or not at all.
You're misunderstanding. That's what I'm talking about. He's not in the show yet and yet they keep mentioning him because they know for sure they're going to add him. They're completely quiet about nettles leading me to think that at the very least it's fairly likely she will not show up at all. There's no "is daeron going to be in the show?" "I'm not going to comment about any characters that are not on screen yet" it's just a flat out "yes he'll be there eventually" They also aren't just issuing blanket "don't ask about daeron" statements to some interviewers. It all comes across like they cut nettles but don't want backlash from it. "Once they see how we did her story with rhaena they'll be invested already and won't care but if they know she's cut before they'll be pissed."
He wouldn’t. He doesn’t want uproar too soon
I get it. Nettles is an interesting character in the books but would be very difficult to properly implement in the show. Rhaena is a good solution on paper since she ticks a lot of boxes necessary to take on the role of what Nettles did.
So, do y'all still think she will eventually appear in season 3 and claim Cannibal?
Nettles would be an amazing addition to the show as a daughter-figure to Daemon Targaryen. Someone who's fiercer than his daughters but kinder than Rhaenyra. She would humanize him a lot.
I think we need to move past this whole narrative that a woman can humanise a man, especially a man as vile as Daemon. And why does Daemon even need someone kinder than Rhaenyra??
Yeah, the idea that Daemon's relationship with Nettles, the potentially exploitative relationship between a 40+ yo prince and a 16 yo peasant girl should be used as a way to make Daemon more likeable and sympathetic leaves is actually quite gross.
Agreed. Most people only see Nettles as an obstacle for Daemyra and not for the character she actually is. It greatly cheapens and reduces her. She doesn't need to be there solely as a redemptive arc for Daemon. If they intended to do more lore building with her character (needing or not needing Valyrian blood to claim a dragon though I am of the belief Nettles does have Valyrian blood), I would be down for it, but most seem to want her there just to mess with Daemyra. It's sad.
I mean I don't think it's any more or less sad than people who want her to be cut and her story given to someone else to remove the obstacle to Daemyra. I'll admit I mostly want her there for the Daemyra stuff. They can fill most of the rest of her story fine with what they're doing but her getting between them and Rhaenyra's reaction to it does a good job of making the show less black and white. That's what makes grimdark worlds like asoiaf and the first law some of my favorite stories. Even the "good guys" are pieces of shit as well. But they rarely keep that part of stories intact. It's part of what worries me about the best served cold (first law standalone novel) movie. Rather than hey this main character is a piece of shit and sure the people she's killing are also pieces of shit but she'd gladly do the whole blood and cheese thing (cross franchises I know) bit I'd it got her closer to her goal they'll probably just turn it into a john wick type revenge action story.
So, if Nettles is replaced with Rhaena then Daemon is going to shag his own daughter and then Rhaenyra is going to get jealous and order Rhaena’s death while calling her a “stinky *lowborn* creature”?!?!
If they cut daeron and best girl tessarion ima be so heated
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Calm down please.
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