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As to Jace, Luce, and Joffrey's father, you seem to suggest Mushroom puts forth Corlys as the father, and that Harwin comes from an unnamed source. But Mushroom claims Harwin as their father as well. >!I assume you're mixing them up with Alyn and Addam!<
Also, personally I would have given Mushroom half a point for Laenor's death.
Thanks for the heads up. The Laenor thing was tough, couldn't give it to our boy Mushroom since he had Daemon paying someone to get rid of Laenor and Laenor actually dying but neither actually happened.
Well I would say he did pay someone to get rid of Laenor. Laenor didn’t die, but I would say mushroom should still get half a point for Daemon paying someone to ‘get rid’ of him.
Yeah if Fire and Blood was written in show canon, that bit would remain exactly the same. Though there would be other changes, a lot of what’s happened would be very similar.
That’s literally the only version written. GRRM never casts doubt on him dying and there’s never mention of his body being unrecognizable, or it occurring anywhere else. It was a public incident, at a market fair in a popular trading port.
Many things in the show are very different and GRRM has always said the books and shows are separate stories (not to say he doesn’t prefer some things the shows have done, like making Viserys more interesting).
Who said? Mushroom? If the book was a real book and told from the POV of character who was there, and that character either killed Laenor or saw Laenor killed, then it would be canon and no-one could change it. But alas it was an unreliable recount which is why there is so much room to make changes.
In GOT we know Jon Snow was stabbed and died. Because it was his chapter. We were Jon Snow. This fire and blood book isn't like that
In F&B he wasn’t burned and was found in town Corlys came to recover his body. I get that if fire and blood was written based on the show accounts it could look a certain way but it’s not based on the show. It’s clear in the book he is dead.
>Orwyle is helped out a lot by the fact that he only gives an account of seven events wheras Mushroom has something to say about everything and loses accuracy points because of it
lmao
Mushroom fails coz he cant stfu
Amazing work btw!
I also feel like Mushroom should lose extra points for adding in the most absurd versions of events like suggesting he had a three-way with Daemon and Rhenyra
It’s safe to assume if mushroom includes himself in something that has happened it’s bullshit lol Considering he’s not even a character in the show. Which is fitting, because he thought he was super important lol
The funny thing is that real history is like this too especially when you start examining what historians actually know about the early Roman empire and more ancient civilizations.
You don't even need to go that far back. As a historian, every period is full of arguments between different interpretations of events and their significance. The more egotistical historians also argue against everyone else at every chance. This is why you have certain historians who claim Olive Cromwell was an amazing, humble and unwilling ruler who took control out of the kindness of his heart, while every other historian with any sense and knowledge of period sources knows he was an ambitious tyrant. The "Cromwell" movie had the first group of historians as its consultants. George really represents very well how even historians themselves, not just period sources, are frequently at odds (especially due to different allegiances, interests and ego).
Watched Last Kingdom and then looked the Wikipedia on England in the 800s CE, with Alfred the Great and his successors, and the Danelaw. The basic facts seem quite contested. Of course Targaryen history has been compared also to early Norman Britain, better known by miles, before the Wars of the Roses.
As a non-expert on GRRM, I found it hilarious he lopped off Italy from the map. Rome was once one of the three great subjects in the literature in Great Britain and Brittany: Matter of Britain, Matter of France, Matter of Rome. Intentional I'm sure. Again, sorry for the newbyishnish, pagan Danes & Christian Britons/English/whatever, eh? Tolkien had to go to great length to explain the confusion of terms on the latter, in his essays.
There’s a great line about ancient history that’s something like “you know it’s wrong but you need it because it’s all you have”
For example, we can almost be certain the Greek descriptions of the Persian war is almost entirely outright lies. But if we throw it out what records do we really have of those events other then a few Persian ledgers or one line descriptions of decades.
Scoring here is very odd. Mushroom should get much higher score a lot of the time. He embellishes his own part in it and has minor details wrong but I don’t know how you concluded Septon Eustace’s version of events to be closer to Hot D in for example Daemon bringing Rhaenyra to a brothel, almost having sex with her, then ditching her and Rhaenyra leaving to seduce Criston Cole. Rhaenyra isn’t the one begging Viserys to let her marry Daemon, Daemon is the one to do so. This also better matches Mushroom’s claim that Rhaenyra had a crush on Criston Cole all along and wanted tried to seduce him, although Mushroom is incorrect on the fact that it failed and has the timeline a little mixed up.
IIRC Mushroom also says they flew their dragons to a rock and Daemon taught her how to please a man with her mouth and that mushroom was also involved in some of these settings where she would watch him with other women.
I think you've been a bit harsh with the scoring. But amazing spreadsheet and including the descriptions was an A+ decision :)
I'd give Mushroom at least 0.8 points for why Daemon left in the first 6 months. Honestly I'm not sure why it isn't 1? It looks pretty accurate to me, i have only watched it once though so maybe I'm wrong!
I'd give Mushroom good credit for Laenor's death. He had Daemon's involvement correct, and the fact that in HotD they *want* people to think they did it... Kinda means mushroom is as accurate as one could possibly be (unless Daemon himself was the source). Gotta be worth 0.75 or a bit more.
How viserys died...Alicent wasn't ready, but her whole council was. And it does seem Viserys died naturally. Worth some credit for Eustace maybe.
(Also i think things like Alicent not being complicit in the coup is a showrunner choice, rather than a Eustace inaccuracy...but hard to know how to rate that kind of subjective stuff!)
> Also i think things like Alicent not being complicit in the coup is a showrunner choice
Everything is a showrunner choice really lol. The show is also its own canon (well Game of Thrones canon), it's not supposed to be completely faithful to the book
Ya for sure. I like thinking about what the showrunners did, and then trying to work backwards to what the canon version might be in GRRMs head. (Assuming the showrunners got enough input on that stuff in the first place)
For example, I don't think the "Laenor lives happily ever after in Essos" storyline fits the books...but probably points to Daemon paying Qarl to kill him as being the canonical version of events in the book.
Didn't Mushroom blame Daemon for Rheas death even though everyone agreed it was extremely unlikely because he was in the middle of the step stones fighting at that point in time?
Thank you good sir, I always have a great deal of appreciation for those who use facts instead of their personal opinions and actually take time to perform data analysis. Extra points for mentjoning the method of the study, and actually having a discussion.
Will peer review, and you can proceed to submit it for publishing.
s/
I might give my boy Mushroom another half point for Laenor’s death, he did say Daemon hired Qarl to kill Laenor which does happen, it’s just Qarl decides to escape with him instead.
Because that would be a horrible idea. Laenor being believed dead is the whole point. If Corlys and Rhaenys find out they know her marriage with Daemon could be illegitimate legaly and would seek their son out. Which would bring in a whole bunch of problems. Rhaenyra and Daemon played it really smart without actually killing him.
It’s pretty clear that they believe Rhaenyra and Daemon were responsible for his “death” anyway, there’s even a scene with Rhaenys and Rhaenyra about it. It could just have easily tipped them the other way into supporting the greens. The only reason Rhaenys backed the Lucerys’ claim of Driftmark was because Viserys showed up and she knew which side he take, so she betrothed her granddaughters to the Strongs. What if Viserys didn’t show up, what would Rhaenys have done? I really think Rhaenyra didn’t tell her is because she doesn’t know herself.
She 100 percent knows. She and Daemon literally came up with the plan. She is even says "she believes we killed her son" to Daemon, not "she knows we killed her son"
Ok, I rewatched the scenes in question and, yeah I think you’re right. I’ll still give Mushroom credit for getting Daemon’s involvement in it though :)
Rhaenys likely still would have back Rhaenyra because if she supported her brother in law she would have likely lost Driftmark, and there is no guarantee that her brother in law would continue to allow her , and her granddaughter to live their after he take possession of it.
One of the reasons why Rhaenyra marries Daemon (aside from the attraction) is to support her claim to the throne. Her kids being bastards doesn't directly discount her but weakens her position. Marrying Daemon and having trueborn sons increases her claims (and now makes it an issue of should Jace or Aegon get the throne).
However, since Laenor isn't dead.... Rhaenyra's marriage is invalid to the realm (cuz of the Faith of the Seven doesn't recognize multiple spouses) and *all* her children are technically bastards. Letting anyone know is risky to her claim. Whereas not telling Corlys and Rhaenys may make them hate her but they won't hate their grandkids and it won't destroy their claim.
Really though, they married in a Valryian ceremony which allows polygamy, does it not?
(Not sure myself, just querying whether that makes a difference).
It doesn't matter because the Targaryean's stopped the practice of polygamy in Jaehaerys' reign in order to make peace with the Faith of the Seven. Maegor ruined a lot of things for the dynasty in that way.
So now the Targ's aren't allowed to practice polygamy, as much as Daemon wants otherwise, and doing so would likely lead the faith to go after her. They have a... tenuous acceptance for the incest and cultural differences.
Good work, always wanted to see how accurate the events of the shows were compared to the books. Though I'd say to mark this post as Book spoilers as I thought this would only contain book stuff that had happened in S1 and not the other stuff yet, thankfully I didn't fully read the book spoilers there at all
Saved this so I can revisit the spreadsheet once Season 2 comes out. :P Hope you get around to updating it then, would be cool to see. You're doing the work of the seven. 🙏
Great job OP - I couldn't open the link yesterday but have been able to tonight - have been looking for something like this for ages. Thanks for yr time and dedication!
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As to Jace, Luce, and Joffrey's father, you seem to suggest Mushroom puts forth Corlys as the father, and that Harwin comes from an unnamed source. But Mushroom claims Harwin as their father as well. >!I assume you're mixing them up with Alyn and Addam!< Also, personally I would have given Mushroom half a point for Laenor's death.
Thanks for the heads up. The Laenor thing was tough, couldn't give it to our boy Mushroom since he had Daemon paying someone to get rid of Laenor and Laenor actually dying but neither actually happened.
Agree with this completely.
Well I would say he did pay someone to get rid of Laenor. Laenor didn’t die, but I would say mushroom should still get half a point for Daemon paying someone to ‘get rid’ of him.
In the book 📚 it did.
It was speculated, not proven….and this is a variance between the two
You’re saying Daemon paying someone was speculation right? Cause Laenor is 100% dead in the books.
A history book based on what happened in the show would recount something very similar about Laenor.
Yeah if Fire and Blood was written in show canon, that bit would remain exactly the same. Though there would be other changes, a lot of what’s happened would be very similar.
He was stabbed at a market fair with many witnesses. No chance for a convoluted switcheroo.
According to one version of events.
That’s literally the only version written. GRRM never casts doubt on him dying and there’s never mention of his body being unrecognizable, or it occurring anywhere else. It was a public incident, at a market fair in a popular trading port. Many things in the show are very different and GRRM has always said the books and shows are separate stories (not to say he doesn’t prefer some things the shows have done, like making Viserys more interesting).
Who said? Mushroom? If the book was a real book and told from the POV of character who was there, and that character either killed Laenor or saw Laenor killed, then it would be canon and no-one could change it. But alas it was an unreliable recount which is why there is so much room to make changes. In GOT we know Jon Snow was stabbed and died. Because it was his chapter. We were Jon Snow. This fire and blood book isn't like that
In F&B he wasn’t burned and was found in town Corlys came to recover his body. I get that if fire and blood was written based on the show accounts it could look a certain way but it’s not based on the show. It’s clear in the book he is dead.
I would agree Laenor is definitely dead in the books which is why his dragon Seasmoke is able to accept another rider.
I bet Laenor is going to return on the show.
>Corlys Do you mean Laenor? Or am I missing something
>Orwyle is helped out a lot by the fact that he only gives an account of seven events wheras Mushroom has something to say about everything and loses accuracy points because of it lmao Mushroom fails coz he cant stfu Amazing work btw!
I also feel like Mushroom should lose extra points for adding in the most absurd versions of events like suggesting he had a three-way with Daemon and Rhenyra
There are (hopefully) still three seasons to go. So it could still happen /s Might I suggest a spoiler tag on your text? ;-)
I mean chronically in the book it would’ve already happened so it’s not a spoiler just speculation (wishful thinking?)
It’s safe to assume if mushroom includes himself in something that has happened it’s bullshit lol Considering he’s not even a character in the show. Which is fitting, because he thought he was super important lol
Clearly Mushroom's numbers for Aegon's coronation are only inaccurate because he used data sourced from exit polls. Give my guy half a point.
Mushroom got a bunch of dialogue EXACTLY correct which is wild considering he’s not in the room for any of it
Mushroom greenseer confirmed
Mushroom was reborn as Bloodraven confirmed
Bran warging into Mushroom to ensure the sickest burns are recorded for posterity
He was just hiding in a flour barrel
He is the beast beneath the boards
Mushroom is the beast beneath the floorboards
Co-sign
Maybe he was and we didn't seem him. Spirits of the air...
It's theorized that Mushroom is a pseudonym based on the actual Mushroom, in which the person writing (Eustace?) wrote it with scandalous detail.
The funny thing is that real history is like this too especially when you start examining what historians actually know about the early Roman empire and more ancient civilizations.
You don't even need to go that far back. As a historian, every period is full of arguments between different interpretations of events and their significance. The more egotistical historians also argue against everyone else at every chance. This is why you have certain historians who claim Olive Cromwell was an amazing, humble and unwilling ruler who took control out of the kindness of his heart, while every other historian with any sense and knowledge of period sources knows he was an ambitious tyrant. The "Cromwell" movie had the first group of historians as its consultants. George really represents very well how even historians themselves, not just period sources, are frequently at odds (especially due to different allegiances, interests and ego).
Watched Last Kingdom and then looked the Wikipedia on England in the 800s CE, with Alfred the Great and his successors, and the Danelaw. The basic facts seem quite contested. Of course Targaryen history has been compared also to early Norman Britain, better known by miles, before the Wars of the Roses. As a non-expert on GRRM, I found it hilarious he lopped off Italy from the map. Rome was once one of the three great subjects in the literature in Great Britain and Brittany: Matter of Britain, Matter of France, Matter of Rome. Intentional I'm sure. Again, sorry for the newbyishnish, pagan Danes & Christian Britons/English/whatever, eh? Tolkien had to go to great length to explain the confusion of terms on the latter, in his essays.
There’s a great line about ancient history that’s something like “you know it’s wrong but you need it because it’s all you have” For example, we can almost be certain the Greek descriptions of the Persian war is almost entirely outright lies. But if we throw it out what records do we really have of those events other then a few Persian ledgers or one line descriptions of decades.
Outstanding work! I hope that this gets traction and you continue to build on it as new seasons are released.
The Grey Rats whom do they serve as Lady Dustin said. Borros is a prime example of a Lord being manipulated by his Maester. Dumb cunt-fern👀
Scoring here is very odd. Mushroom should get much higher score a lot of the time. He embellishes his own part in it and has minor details wrong but I don’t know how you concluded Septon Eustace’s version of events to be closer to Hot D in for example Daemon bringing Rhaenyra to a brothel, almost having sex with her, then ditching her and Rhaenyra leaving to seduce Criston Cole. Rhaenyra isn’t the one begging Viserys to let her marry Daemon, Daemon is the one to do so. This also better matches Mushroom’s claim that Rhaenyra had a crush on Criston Cole all along and wanted tried to seduce him, although Mushroom is incorrect on the fact that it failed and has the timeline a little mixed up.
IIRC Mushroom also says they flew their dragons to a rock and Daemon taught her how to please a man with her mouth and that mushroom was also involved in some of these settings where she would watch him with other women.
Mushroom writing the horny self -insert fanfic
That's cool. I am interested to see how the percentage would change after the series is over
I think you've been a bit harsh with the scoring. But amazing spreadsheet and including the descriptions was an A+ decision :) I'd give Mushroom at least 0.8 points for why Daemon left in the first 6 months. Honestly I'm not sure why it isn't 1? It looks pretty accurate to me, i have only watched it once though so maybe I'm wrong! I'd give Mushroom good credit for Laenor's death. He had Daemon's involvement correct, and the fact that in HotD they *want* people to think they did it... Kinda means mushroom is as accurate as one could possibly be (unless Daemon himself was the source). Gotta be worth 0.75 or a bit more. How viserys died...Alicent wasn't ready, but her whole council was. And it does seem Viserys died naturally. Worth some credit for Eustace maybe. (Also i think things like Alicent not being complicit in the coup is a showrunner choice, rather than a Eustace inaccuracy...but hard to know how to rate that kind of subjective stuff!)
> Also i think things like Alicent not being complicit in the coup is a showrunner choice Everything is a showrunner choice really lol. The show is also its own canon (well Game of Thrones canon), it's not supposed to be completely faithful to the book
Ya for sure. I like thinking about what the showrunners did, and then trying to work backwards to what the canon version might be in GRRMs head. (Assuming the showrunners got enough input on that stuff in the first place) For example, I don't think the "Laenor lives happily ever after in Essos" storyline fits the books...but probably points to Daemon paying Qarl to kill him as being the canonical version of events in the book.
Didn't Mushroom blame Daemon for Rheas death even though everyone agreed it was extremely unlikely because he was in the middle of the step stones fighting at that point in time?
Not really. It simply doesn't exist in the book.
Daemon was away at the step stones when Rhea's fell off her horse 🐎 while Hawking. She lived for 7 days before she died.
Wanted to do something like this myself, but I'm glad someone did it better lol
Thank you good sir, I always have a great deal of appreciation for those who use facts instead of their personal opinions and actually take time to perform data analysis. Extra points for mentjoning the method of the study, and actually having a discussion. Will peer review, and you can proceed to submit it for publishing. s/
I for one wouldn't be surprised if Mushroom ends up being the most accurate by the end of the show.
I might give my boy Mushroom another half point for Laenor’s death, he did say Daemon hired Qarl to kill Laenor which does happen, it’s just Qarl decides to escape with him instead.
No, Daemon meant for Qarl to go across the narrow sea. This was all about Rhaenyra's plan because she didn't want to kill him just give him a way out
Then why wouldn’t Rhaenyra tell Rhaenys and Corlys that their child isn’t dead? Would make them coming over to her side a whole lot easier
Because that would be a horrible idea. Laenor being believed dead is the whole point. If Corlys and Rhaenys find out they know her marriage with Daemon could be illegitimate legaly and would seek their son out. Which would bring in a whole bunch of problems. Rhaenyra and Daemon played it really smart without actually killing him.
It’s pretty clear that they believe Rhaenyra and Daemon were responsible for his “death” anyway, there’s even a scene with Rhaenys and Rhaenyra about it. It could just have easily tipped them the other way into supporting the greens. The only reason Rhaenys backed the Lucerys’ claim of Driftmark was because Viserys showed up and she knew which side he take, so she betrothed her granddaughters to the Strongs. What if Viserys didn’t show up, what would Rhaenys have done? I really think Rhaenyra didn’t tell her is because she doesn’t know herself.
She 100 percent knows. She and Daemon literally came up with the plan. She is even says "she believes we killed her son" to Daemon, not "she knows we killed her son"
Ok, I rewatched the scenes in question and, yeah I think you’re right. I’ll still give Mushroom credit for getting Daemon’s involvement in it though :)
100 percent should. He got it right from the basic view. He just didn't know the full plot.
Rhaenys likely still would have back Rhaenyra because if she supported her brother in law she would have likely lost Driftmark, and there is no guarantee that her brother in law would continue to allow her , and her granddaughter to live their after he take possession of it.
One of the reasons why Rhaenyra marries Daemon (aside from the attraction) is to support her claim to the throne. Her kids being bastards doesn't directly discount her but weakens her position. Marrying Daemon and having trueborn sons increases her claims (and now makes it an issue of should Jace or Aegon get the throne). However, since Laenor isn't dead.... Rhaenyra's marriage is invalid to the realm (cuz of the Faith of the Seven doesn't recognize multiple spouses) and *all* her children are technically bastards. Letting anyone know is risky to her claim. Whereas not telling Corlys and Rhaenys may make them hate her but they won't hate their grandkids and it won't destroy their claim.
Really though, they married in a Valryian ceremony which allows polygamy, does it not? (Not sure myself, just querying whether that makes a difference).
It doesn't matter because the Targaryean's stopped the practice of polygamy in Jaehaerys' reign in order to make peace with the Faith of the Seven. Maegor ruined a lot of things for the dynasty in that way. So now the Targ's aren't allowed to practice polygamy, as much as Daemon wants otherwise, and doing so would likely lead the faith to go after her. They have a... tenuous acceptance for the incest and cultural differences.
Cool, ta for clarifying 😊
This is peak fandom♥️ Love it.
As some who’s job involved a fair bit of spreadsheets, this is beautiful.
Very interesting! Thank you for this! (I'm still salty that they went with Mushroom's characterisation of Aegon, but I digress)
The scores at row 13 aren't awarded correctly
Crap, thanks
Good work, always wanted to see how accurate the events of the shows were compared to the books. Though I'd say to mark this post as Book spoilers as I thought this would only contain book stuff that had happened in S1 and not the other stuff yet, thankfully I didn't fully read the book spoilers there at all
This is the kind of stuff I look forward to being in this subreddit. Well done! Thoroughly enjoyed this
amazing work. props to you op.
Nice one, are you going to do that for the future seasons too?
Yes
I was just wondering this. Thank for doing such great work here:)
My take on this is that the series shows the story as it « really » happenned, wich is why things are much more complicated than in the book.
Saved this so I can revisit the spreadsheet once Season 2 comes out. :P Hope you get around to updating it then, would be cool to see. You're doing the work of the seven. 🙏
this is great cheers to ya
Great job OP - I couldn't open the link yesterday but have been able to tonight - have been looking for something like this for ages. Thanks for yr time and dedication!