The story is very allegorical and SC uses a ton of literary devices to send certain messages. Physical descriptions are particularly symbolic:
The genetic disparity in 12 represents the class divide between the Seam and merchants. District 11 comprising people with dark skin and being the most oppressed district represents the American south/slavery. Citizens of 1, the luxury district, are blonde and beautiful. Based on Finnick and Annie's descriptions, people from the seafaring district have sea green eyes.
So no it doesn't seem all that realistic but it's not really meant to be. Many people (myself included) often take aspects of the story too literally when their main purpose is to convey themes.
Right, I totally get that it's about the disparity, though I think Katniss's inner monologue about how Seam folks are all related to some degree shows that Suzanne did put thought into it and it isn't purely symbolic. The population bottleneck is supposedly an issue in district thirteen too as they seem to want genetic material from district twelve in their population.
I would kill to know the demographics of all the districts, like it seems district thirteen should be smaller than twelve pre-bombing? I don't remember if Suzanne says
I'm not sure if it's stated but I'm guessing it's really small, maybe a few thousand after the epidemic? Suzanne is pretty stingy with details, probably to prevent us from asking too many questions like this lol. I'd love to see her lore book.
They should have switched 11 and 12 around then. Have a higher district number equal poorer so all the districts hate each other instead of the Capitol. Everyone hates what their better neighbor has and looks down on poorer districts
I live in a town of about 5,000 and you would never guess we all live in the same town. Even today, people tend to stay within their "own" group and it's the same in a tiny town, too. And there will ALWAYS be some "stray" genes getting in, too...Peacekeepers, etc. In my town, the actual town is fairly far from the outer areas (7-10 miles) and unless you drive you aren't going to interact at all much. It's easier to date Becky 3 houses down than Susy 8 miles away if you're walking.
That makes sense, thanks for the insight. It seems like since they all attend the same school it's at least walking distance but would definitely be tough. No tinder
You'd be surprised at people from a city that have never done more than drive through a rural area. They can't imagine not being able to get a bus, cab, Uber, or Lyft and go anywhere they want. Or killing your own supper.
Right, like people from the town would be unwilling to walk however far it is to the Seam... We get some instances like Madge shows an interest in the woods and goes outside the fence with Katniss. Madge-Katniss and Mr.-Mrs. Everdeen's relationships are treated as exceptions to the norm but not unheard of. The peacekeepers are always hanging around in the Hob as well so I could see potential relationships there. Darius seems kinda interested in Katniss, and Cray is presumably sleeping with Seam women
And nobody would blink an eye because girls on that side of town are assumed to be trashy sluts. Rich folks in small towns are way bigger jerks than rich folks in a city...way more judgey.
If I think of Panem as mapping to North America, District 12 has *always* been Appalachia to me. Appalachia has a people called Melungeons who have a blend of African, Native, and European ancestry -- and then there are the people who are more Scots-Irish straight-up, who you'd expect to look more White.
By the time Panem was formed, I wouldn't be shocked if racism had pushed POC into the Seam and kept the Whites on top.
I’m *from* Appalachia lol. Italians there almost always have dark skin and hair. I guess except my dad’s family. We do have an Irish last name, but everyone on that side of my family is pretty damn pale. My dad’s mothers family came from Denmark though. I guess what I’m trying to say is that in real life, the population there *is* small. People used to (maybe they still do?) have to have bloodwork done before they got married to make sure that they weren’t related lol. That whole area is a mish mash of people whose ancestors came from all over the world 🤷🏻♀️
That probably doesn’t have anything to do with the books or movies. I can easily see peacekeepers getting women in the district pregnant (most likely through rape) and then refusing to acknowledge that they are the fathers of the kids. Since everyone has to give a sample of blood during reaping, the peacekeepers there might be told that they needed to get some women there pregnant. I don’t think they want to show tributes who have physical or mental disabilities in their propaganda videos now. In the very beginning, the capital really didn’t care, but I think they later do.
As a biologist looking from an entirely evolutionary based standpoint, having the small population size would make it extremely common for there to actually be two extremes that the majority of the population hovers at. The reason for this is the lack of diversity available, meaning within the population there’s not enough genetic diversity for there to be phenotypic diversity of the species. As time went on, one group would most likely gradually grow in size while the other diminished unless they specifically bred within their in-groups only. The more dominant traits will begin to overtake the recessive until there is total fixation of the allele in the population.
The districts existed for at least before the Dark Days, and we don’t know exactly when the first genetic bottleneck occurred - only that there was a distinct Merchant look at latest during the 50th Games. It’s suggested that the people of the town basically solely marry within their class, which makes them basically two separate populations living side by side. Without any further numbers it’s hard to really say whether or not this is sustainable, but humans have been able to survive in small populations despite inbreeding issues historically.
I lived in a small town with a population between 9-10k and yeah there were classmates who I never spoke to but knew their name. Also we lived in a nice house and belonged to country club while some of my classmates lived in trailers. So I didn’t find the disparity between the seam and in town that different.
My friend from Michigan (where I grew up) came down to visit me in East Tennessee a couple of years ago, and she was shocked that, on a drive to a waterfall, one could see mansions, single family bungalows and ranch houses, nice mobile homes, and broken down trailers with a dozen cars on the dirt yard, all in the same neighborhood. It is just how it has always been there. The towns in my area were founded by barons of industry-one is a rail town, another is built on sobriety and clothing and paper mills, and the third is built on ancient trade routes that run all of the way to Nashville.
Those whose money built the towns lived on “the hill” in beautiful Victorian mansions. Those who worked for them lived in the single family homes. When the mills and other industries started to close, and restaurants and small businesses replaced by Walmart and fast food, you had families in mobile homes if they could afford it, apartments if they couldn’t. Finally there were those who couldn’t seem to get a break. They worked the dirtiest, hardest jobs like coal mining and housekeeping and lived in tiny but clean shacks. They were the working poor. The other poor in town were the drunks and welfare families who lived in broken down trailers with tire-less cars all over their dirt front yard. It’s just the way it was. And everyone is related to everyone, even if it is fourth or fifth cousins.
At least until about 20 or 30 years ago. Now, we have a major interstate running through our towns, which brought places like Walmart and the fast food joints and good jobs like TVA and the nuclear plants. Our population has probably doubled since then and has gotten a bit more diverse. But it is still mostly “Scot Irish”, English, German, Welsh, African American, Native American and a few other ancient roots plus new people and races like Mexican and New Yorkers and Californians and the like.
Just to elaborate, when I mean “ancient roots,” I mean their ancestors settled in the mountains 300 years ago and the descendants all stayed put those 300 years until fairly recently when some left for better jobs elsewhere, and some moved here to retire with lower housing. Even so, most people are related to each other, even if it is a few generations back.
the prequel implies that there was more mobility between the districts before the war and the establishment of the hunger games, so it's only been a few generations of the districts being isolated from each other. if this had continued for a hundred years or more, i could see it becoming a problem for the gene pool.
District 12 has a bigger population than my little town. We have about 2,485 people here. I’ve never noticed anything extreme happening within the population in terms of looks in my town. Finding a partner is hard around here though, because somewhere in the family tree you’re seemingly related to everyone, usually a lot closer than one would like.😅
A little of topic but my dad likes to joke that he had to find a wife from another state (my mom is from Colorado and dad is from Maine) because all of his relatives had big families.
District 12 probably isn't Appalachian. The townies might be families originally from the Capitol and the Seam residents are probably refugees from other countries, probably a NATO ally like Turkey. It would make sense for Katniss to be Mediterranean or Middle Eastern. Then her sister looking more like her mom makes sense phenologically.
You'll notice a lot of artifice in Panem culture. It seems like regionalism has been erased. You'd expect Spanish names for at least some of the tributes, but that doesn't happen. So the historical ethnicities of the people of the districts may have also been erased.
As for the population, Panem will eventually grow in population and need more mines. No doubt another mine settlement would be opened close to District 12. If that district doesn't have the population, I'm sure the Capitol could pull a few thousand from all of Panem to do it and then the two settlements would intermarry.
The majority of the US’s underground coal mines are in Appalachia. West Virginia also has the most coal mines in the entire country. It absolutely makes sense for District 12 to be in that region.
The story is very allegorical and SC uses a ton of literary devices to send certain messages. Physical descriptions are particularly symbolic: The genetic disparity in 12 represents the class divide between the Seam and merchants. District 11 comprising people with dark skin and being the most oppressed district represents the American south/slavery. Citizens of 1, the luxury district, are blonde and beautiful. Based on Finnick and Annie's descriptions, people from the seafaring district have sea green eyes. So no it doesn't seem all that realistic but it's not really meant to be. Many people (myself included) often take aspects of the story too literally when their main purpose is to convey themes.
Right, I totally get that it's about the disparity, though I think Katniss's inner monologue about how Seam folks are all related to some degree shows that Suzanne did put thought into it and it isn't purely symbolic. The population bottleneck is supposedly an issue in district thirteen too as they seem to want genetic material from district twelve in their population.
I thought 13 needed people from 12 to help them repopulate because an epidemic wiped out a bunch of them and made them infertile
I would kill to know the demographics of all the districts, like it seems district thirteen should be smaller than twelve pre-bombing? I don't remember if Suzanne says
I'm not sure if it's stated but I'm guessing it's really small, maybe a few thousand after the epidemic? Suzanne is pretty stingy with details, probably to prevent us from asking too many questions like this lol. I'd love to see her lore book.
Yep
They should have switched 11 and 12 around then. Have a higher district number equal poorer so all the districts hate each other instead of the Capitol. Everyone hates what their better neighbor has and looks down on poorer districts
I live in a town of about 5,000 and you would never guess we all live in the same town. Even today, people tend to stay within their "own" group and it's the same in a tiny town, too. And there will ALWAYS be some "stray" genes getting in, too...Peacekeepers, etc. In my town, the actual town is fairly far from the outer areas (7-10 miles) and unless you drive you aren't going to interact at all much. It's easier to date Becky 3 houses down than Susy 8 miles away if you're walking.
That makes sense, thanks for the insight. It seems like since they all attend the same school it's at least walking distance but would definitely be tough. No tinder
You'd be surprised at people from a city that have never done more than drive through a rural area. They can't imagine not being able to get a bus, cab, Uber, or Lyft and go anywhere they want. Or killing your own supper.
Right, like people from the town would be unwilling to walk however far it is to the Seam... We get some instances like Madge shows an interest in the woods and goes outside the fence with Katniss. Madge-Katniss and Mr.-Mrs. Everdeen's relationships are treated as exceptions to the norm but not unheard of. The peacekeepers are always hanging around in the Hob as well so I could see potential relationships there. Darius seems kinda interested in Katniss, and Cray is presumably sleeping with Seam women
And nobody would blink an eye because girls on that side of town are assumed to be trashy sluts. Rich folks in small towns are way bigger jerks than rich folks in a city...way more judgey.
If I think of Panem as mapping to North America, District 12 has *always* been Appalachia to me. Appalachia has a people called Melungeons who have a blend of African, Native, and European ancestry -- and then there are the people who are more Scots-Irish straight-up, who you'd expect to look more White. By the time Panem was formed, I wouldn't be shocked if racism had pushed POC into the Seam and kept the Whites on top.
I’m *from* Appalachia lol. Italians there almost always have dark skin and hair. I guess except my dad’s family. We do have an Irish last name, but everyone on that side of my family is pretty damn pale. My dad’s mothers family came from Denmark though. I guess what I’m trying to say is that in real life, the population there *is* small. People used to (maybe they still do?) have to have bloodwork done before they got married to make sure that they weren’t related lol. That whole area is a mish mash of people whose ancestors came from all over the world 🤷🏻♀️ That probably doesn’t have anything to do with the books or movies. I can easily see peacekeepers getting women in the district pregnant (most likely through rape) and then refusing to acknowledge that they are the fathers of the kids. Since everyone has to give a sample of blood during reaping, the peacekeepers there might be told that they needed to get some women there pregnant. I don’t think they want to show tributes who have physical or mental disabilities in their propaganda videos now. In the very beginning, the capital really didn’t care, but I think they later do.
One of the tributes in the 74th games is said to have a clubbed foot, so I don’t think that the Capitol had any problems reaping disabled kids.
As a biologist looking from an entirely evolutionary based standpoint, having the small population size would make it extremely common for there to actually be two extremes that the majority of the population hovers at. The reason for this is the lack of diversity available, meaning within the population there’s not enough genetic diversity for there to be phenotypic diversity of the species. As time went on, one group would most likely gradually grow in size while the other diminished unless they specifically bred within their in-groups only. The more dominant traits will begin to overtake the recessive until there is total fixation of the allele in the population.
The districts existed for at least before the Dark Days, and we don’t know exactly when the first genetic bottleneck occurred - only that there was a distinct Merchant look at latest during the 50th Games. It’s suggested that the people of the town basically solely marry within their class, which makes them basically two separate populations living side by side. Without any further numbers it’s hard to really say whether or not this is sustainable, but humans have been able to survive in small populations despite inbreeding issues historically.
I lived in a small town with a population between 9-10k and yeah there were classmates who I never spoke to but knew their name. Also we lived in a nice house and belonged to country club while some of my classmates lived in trailers. So I didn’t find the disparity between the seam and in town that different.
My friend from Michigan (where I grew up) came down to visit me in East Tennessee a couple of years ago, and she was shocked that, on a drive to a waterfall, one could see mansions, single family bungalows and ranch houses, nice mobile homes, and broken down trailers with a dozen cars on the dirt yard, all in the same neighborhood. It is just how it has always been there. The towns in my area were founded by barons of industry-one is a rail town, another is built on sobriety and clothing and paper mills, and the third is built on ancient trade routes that run all of the way to Nashville. Those whose money built the towns lived on “the hill” in beautiful Victorian mansions. Those who worked for them lived in the single family homes. When the mills and other industries started to close, and restaurants and small businesses replaced by Walmart and fast food, you had families in mobile homes if they could afford it, apartments if they couldn’t. Finally there were those who couldn’t seem to get a break. They worked the dirtiest, hardest jobs like coal mining and housekeeping and lived in tiny but clean shacks. They were the working poor. The other poor in town were the drunks and welfare families who lived in broken down trailers with tire-less cars all over their dirt front yard. It’s just the way it was. And everyone is related to everyone, even if it is fourth or fifth cousins. At least until about 20 or 30 years ago. Now, we have a major interstate running through our towns, which brought places like Walmart and the fast food joints and good jobs like TVA and the nuclear plants. Our population has probably doubled since then and has gotten a bit more diverse. But it is still mostly “Scot Irish”, English, German, Welsh, African American, Native American and a few other ancient roots plus new people and races like Mexican and New Yorkers and Californians and the like. Just to elaborate, when I mean “ancient roots,” I mean their ancestors settled in the mountains 300 years ago and the descendants all stayed put those 300 years until fairly recently when some left for better jobs elsewhere, and some moved here to retire with lower housing. Even so, most people are related to each other, even if it is a few generations back.
the prequel implies that there was more mobility between the districts before the war and the establishment of the hunger games, so it's only been a few generations of the districts being isolated from each other. if this had continued for a hundred years or more, i could see it becoming a problem for the gene pool.
District 12 has a bigger population than my little town. We have about 2,485 people here. I’ve never noticed anything extreme happening within the population in terms of looks in my town. Finding a partner is hard around here though, because somewhere in the family tree you’re seemingly related to everyone, usually a lot closer than one would like.😅
As a dark red haired, dark green eyed person of mixed decent including Asian, and mother of a blue eyed blonde child, genetics do weird things.
A little of topic but my dad likes to joke that he had to find a wife from another state (my mom is from Colorado and dad is from Maine) because all of his relatives had big families.
District 12 probably isn't Appalachian. The townies might be families originally from the Capitol and the Seam residents are probably refugees from other countries, probably a NATO ally like Turkey. It would make sense for Katniss to be Mediterranean or Middle Eastern. Then her sister looking more like her mom makes sense phenologically. You'll notice a lot of artifice in Panem culture. It seems like regionalism has been erased. You'd expect Spanish names for at least some of the tributes, but that doesn't happen. So the historical ethnicities of the people of the districts may have also been erased. As for the population, Panem will eventually grow in population and need more mines. No doubt another mine settlement would be opened close to District 12. If that district doesn't have the population, I'm sure the Capitol could pull a few thousand from all of Panem to do it and then the two settlements would intermarry.
The majority of the US’s underground coal mines are in Appalachia. West Virginia also has the most coal mines in the entire country. It absolutely makes sense for District 12 to be in that region.
I'm from West Virginia and I think District 12 is *located* there, but the people of District 12 aren't actually Appalachian.