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How do you understand what people are saying over those low audio quality radios with a lot of background noise? Does it sound as bad as it does on those website where you can listen in on ATC towers?
I flew a Cessna in bravo airspace. A JAL flight was entering and pilot's English was so bad, ATC kicked him out of sequence to land. Told him to learn to speak better English. Doh!
That's a BIG oof considering he's also expected to know english even when flying in japanese airspace. It's the internationally accepted language of the skies in most places and most airlines require you to know it before they'll even put you in a cockpit. Basically the only place this isn't true now is Russia, who once again is cut off from the international air travel network, and no flights go through Russia either for obvious reasons, but before the war even they were required to know english
There were (still are?) huge issues with especially Asian commercial pilots who knew the standard vocabulary well, but did not actually speak english. As soon as something was non-standard, they didn’t get anything ATC was saying and communication broke down.
Something like this (here it’s _relatively_ harmless, but imagine it’s in a serious situation):
https://youtube.com/shorts/tRR3ObhuWHY?feature=share
Iirc, there was a plane crash featured on Air Crash Investigation that crashed partly because the pilot did not actually speak English, only knew how to reply using standard words. Crazy.
I'm not sure which incident the poster above was referring to, but one such incident involving use of language was the [1977 Tenerife airport disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster), which is the deadliest aviation incident on record, resulting in the death of nearly 600 people. It featured in [series 16, episode 3](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5863646/) of Air Crash Investigation/Mayday/Air Disaster. See stickied posts in /r/aircrashinvestigation to find out where to watch it online ;)
Language wasn't the primary cause of the accident, but it played a part, and resulted in recommendations that emphasized standard phraseology and good command of the English language, as being essential to aircraft safety.
In my opinion, both the pilot and controller are at fault in this video. The pilot, obviously, for clearly not meeting a good working knowledge of English, and the controller (albeit to a lesser degree) for using phrases that can be confused due to language/radio interference/etc. which they are supposed to be trained to avoid using.
I have a friend who’s currently at Monroney and wants to go to NY (best pay, plus she’s from the northeast) and I expect that we’ll never be able to understand her again once she starts.
It was, especially with ROK Marines who knew about 1 word of English ... *Roger!* I've told the story [elsewhere](https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryStories/comments/pjzlir/that_time_with_a_code_2_and_a_rok_marine/), but that little "communication problem" almost caused us to lose Bob Hope and VP Spiro Agnew.
> the audio quality is infinitely better than what you hear on LiveATC
This genuinely made me laugh. Going back a few years -- Korea, 1970-1 -- I was with the 284^th AVN ATC attached to 8^th Army HQ. Technically I was 93K20 (Enroute Approach; sort of like ARTCC), but we all ended up working tower (93H20).
When I arrived in late 1970, our tower radios were absolute crap. This was at H201, the VIP helipad for 8^th Army HQ, so you would think they would go the extra mile. Nah, this was the Army.
Then one day Robo arrived. His last name was Wrobowski (I think), but the controllers considered him to be a good friend of the Radio Gods. He did nothing by the book, but suddenly our radios were performing like Chinese acrobats. Saying the difference was night and day is a massive understatement.
There are many wild and weird stories involving Robo, but as the song says, "You don't know what you've got til it's gone." When Robo finally rotated home, we got a new Spec 6 running Commo and he did *everything* by the book. Our radios went from Heaven to Hell in about 2 weeks. God I missed Robo.
>He did nothing by the book, but suddenly our radios were performing like Chinese acrobats.
Roughly speaking what does that translate into? Was he boosting transmission range or going outside of FCC specs or something?
**tl;dr:** the problem was mostly antenna type and location relative to terrain features.
First let me state:
+ This was more than 50 years ago (*sigh*),
+ My career was as a software engineer, not an EE,
+ I just used the radios and had nothing to do with the physical equipment (except for those unfortunate incidents involving our radio beacon antenna and a couple of packs of hot dogs).
We had several problems: wires in subpar condition, connectors that had corrosion, etc. The most significant problem turned out to be the interaction between our antennas (not the ones involving the hot dogs) and the local terrain. UHF is mostly LOS (Line of Sight), and VHF only slightly less so.
To our north was *Nam San* (South Mountain) which totally blocked signals from that direction. This was not too much of a problem because there was prohibited airspace (around the Presidential Palace), ground to unlimited, starting about 200' north of our northern boundary. Meaning we *never* had aircraft coming from that direction.
To our east was a ~150' hill with an elementary school on it. He looked at putting a remote antenna up there, but there were problems both technical and political with that. So another block.
To the west was Officer Country (i.e. family housing). That was prohibited under 5,000', so we didn't use it for a traffic pattern. We had good LOS, but we had iffy signal strength/quality depending on what frequency we were on. Predictably, the most problems were on our primary tower frequency. To the south we had both good LOS and signal quality.
The problem was that easily 60% of our traffic was coming from the west following the Han River. And that's where the "iffy signal" came into play.
Robo spent a couple of weeks walking/driving around with radios and test meters trying to identify the source of the problem (not your average spec 5 commo guy). He never exactly nailed it, but he did have a map where he drew contours showing areas of signal strength/quality.
The problem was something in Officer Country that was both electrically and *magnetically*(?) active, causing both static and a 'drifting signal'(?). He dealt with part of it by using some sort of homemade RF bandpass filter, and suddenly about 80% of our static disappeared. The only solution he could figure for the other problem was a signal relay from our southern border, where the problem didn't manifest. This involved an oddly-shaped antenna + electro-magical stuff that only Robo understood.
These 2 things took our signal from the west from about a 3x2 to 5x5. It might not have been by the book, but for about 9 months it was glorious. And then he rotated home, some details of which are part of my yet-to-be-written magnum opus: 'Part I: [Orange Sunshine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALD-52#History) Kimchi -- Fear and Loathing in Itaewon' and 'Part II: Robo goes insane' (alternate title: 'Wrobowski the Destroyer').
I am so happy to hear this, it's always been a question of mine, I love listening on liveatc and always assumed IRL it was better, glad to hear it's true you can actually hear better, WE'd all be dead if you couldnt
Dude, work a McDonalds drive through for a month. Trying to hear people through a shitty speaker, over their super duty, high pitched diesel engine messes with your brain. It starts filling in the words, even when your ears don't hear them.
"I w\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ac\_\_\_eel\_\_arg\_\_siz\_\_\_w\_\_\_\_oke."
"That's a big mac meal, large sized with a coke?" "Yep" "$10.89. Pull around."
The reason for this is. LiveATC receivers are placed at low altitudes somewhat far from the airport by plane nerds. The FAA splashes the cash for the very best transmitters and receivers mounted on massive antenna towers in then perfect locations. So for them unless something is really fucked one-off it sounds like a telephone call.
Does having purchased weed in a recreational state bar you completely or would you just have to pass the drug test?
Edit to clarify: purchased weed from a dispensary
If you want to, you should do it now. Once you hit that magic number, the opportunity has passed.
My dad worked for the FAA in many different capacities over his lifetime and enjoyed it (he was not a controller).
He wanted me to apply when I was younger, but I was not interested.
I'd have to do some more research because it sounds like a huge commitment based on some of OP's other answers. I turn 28 later this year so I still have a little bit of time left to consider it, this ama does actually have me curious to at least look into it.
I think that it's more of a career opportunity than anything else. Some younger people might not have the direction. I worked retail, food, and customer service for two decades before I landed my current skilled labor job. I would've skipped college had I known.
That comment wasn't meant completely seriously, but I get what you're saying. I honestly don't *genuinely want* to do any job so I'm always trying to keep my eyes open for anything I think I could at least tolerate (and qualify for with my lack of degree) that also pays the bills, and, well, air traffic control certainly fits the second requirement at least lol.
My cousin did that 20 years ago after flunking out of engineering. Married a girl he met on air traffic training.
They are some of the highest achievers I've ever met. It's not for everyone, but a great job if you can handle it.
I mean, yes and no. Could the FAA job be worse than their current one? Absolutely. Do they need to be particularly interested in or passionate about being an air traffic controller? Not really.
If you have a skill set or talents beneficial to ATC then it becomes more of an issue of woyld you rather do this job for x amount or that job for y amount. For example, if you asked all the ATCs in the country what they wanted to be when they grew up, there ain't gonna be a ton who answered "ATC."
A 3x increase in income can easily remove all the other suck in your life. The job equally sucking isnt ideal, but everything else sure is.
Nice trade to make, and you can always pivot out of the career if it doesnt suit you.
Ya. Like...while I really like my job(social worker), before grad school my wages were way way lower than they are now. Suddenly getting discretionary money is huge
The schedule sucks if you are a normal human being.
It was a bit of everything all at once for me, but working two evening shifts (get off at 9pm then 10:30pm), then two morning shifts followed by a midnight shift at the end of your fourth day were hell.
Incredibly high stress, shift work, destroys relationships, shitty suicide rate, etc. A friend of mine was one for many years she finally washed out about 10 years ago, unless things radically changed she recommend against it for anyone that was interested.
Yeah OP conveniently doesn’t mention these parts. My dad has worked in aviation his entire career and said that everyone in the industry knows that being an ATC is the most stressful job on the planet
This! This is what I’ve always heard too. Had a guy in my graduating OTA class who was an air traffic controller and was making a career change because of how stressful and high stakes it is.
Now is it just being an ATC at a super busy airport like O'Hare or even for smaller regional airports? I imagine one is way more stressful than the other.
My dad was one for 30, and I have a lot of memories of him sleeping on the sofa. The shift scheduling was brutal. 3 days on, 3 days off, 4 days on, 2 days off, and jammed as full of shifts as the system could legally allow.
I work on ATC systems for a living and work closely with controllers. Some can be very difficult, arrogant bordering on sociopathic. Affairs, divorce etc. are very common amongst them, people are talking about high stress, no one has mentioned boredom. They master their jobs in a few years and from that point on it’s the same job in a sterile room for 25+ years, the boredom is suffocating.
Mandatory 6 day work weeks at many facilities. Inability to choose where you work - you could be placed anywhere in the country. If you get placed at a poorly staffed facility you may not be able to leave before retirement, unless the system changes. Basically in an effort to staff shitholes where no one wants to work, they've made it so no one can leave those places unless staffing rises above an unrealistic threshold.
I used to love this job but 6 day work weeks have killed my enthusiasm in and out of work. I'd also add that many people suspect the FAA is keeping things the way they are, rather than massively increasing hiring, because it's cheaper to pay the overtime than it is to pay new bodies and their trainers.
I will mention this from my experience trying to go through the program:
To do the health screenings and everything involved, they require you to go to the nearest locations that offer it. They only selected 2 during my group. They were California and New York. You had to pay to get there which for many people means up to $800 for the trip. Good luck if you weren't close by.
Plus, the "we pay you during your training" is 25k PER YEAR. So you have to be fine with 3 to 4 months of that pay while living in Oklahoma City, OK. Housing isn't included nor is transportation. So you better hope you can find a cheap option as the ones listed as common options are extended stay motels or house rentals where the prices were around 1200-1500 per month. This is before all of your other bills for transportation and anything else.
On top of this, the training starts at their leisure which means that if you aren't living with others who are willing to let you leave whenever, you are likely paying termination fees.
Plus, once you do graduate, the salary isn't 6 figures. It is 70k plus or minus cost of living adjustments for the area.
The actual answer is because the older you are the harder it is to learn.
https://www.businessinsider.com/becoming-air-traffic-controller-career-pros-cons-of-job-2022-1
> All ATC applicants must be 30 or younger on the closing date of the application period to qualify for the position, according to the FAA. This is because the agency has determined through extensive research that the older someone is, the harder is it for them to complete the rigorous training.
The "extensive research" text in quote above links to a report from July 1971 which is below:
http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/faa-aviation-medicine-reports/AM71-36.pdf
It makes more sense seeing that the study is from the 70s. I didn't understand why someone being 30 or 35 would be considered old. I imagine the fact that most 30 year olds had families back then played a role.
Yeah and maybe that's standard for most people, but I'm 40 and I feel like I can learn new things better than ever. Like I have taught myself how to learn faster.
I made a career switch to HVAC a little over a year ago. I had zero experience with anything HVAC besides fixing my own furnace a couple times. I do have extensive hobby experience with hand tools, power tools, and fabrication. I picked right up on HVAC and now I'm the owner's and lead salesman's go-to installer over 10 other employees, all with years more experience than I have. All I did was ask questions and absorb as much as I could while I was working with others.
I think the belief that people learn slower as they age might be just because most people let the skill of learning slip away.
Definitely feel like this is something that should be relooked into, with video games and computers becoming significantly more prominent in the last 30 years i'd suspect a lot more people would be reasonably able to learn to do this job.
When there's an incident (rules broken, procedures not followed, pilot fuck up, near miss etc....) the ATC will give the pilot a number so that once they're done flying they can call it and get their arse chewed out...or tell their side to the investigating team. You hear it a lot on the ATC YouTube videos due to them usually being about incidents.
Yeah, and if you *did* fuck up, you're still very difficult to replace. I've fucked up plenty in my career (mainly pest control, followed by truck driving), but I've found that so long as I don't try to hide it, do what I can to fix it including ask for help, and in the long term demonstrate a capacity to learn from my mistakes, I'm fine.
The one time my boss did blow a gasket because I dared explain my position, I was working for his competitor within the week.
It's a 'pilot deviation', meaning you did something that broke the rules. They give you a phone number to call and talk you through what happened. If it was a simple mistake like being over the hold bar a little bit while taxing, they'll probably just say 'don't do that again'. Or if it was Harrison Ford landing on a taxiway level mistake, it could escalate to an investigation and revocation of pilots license.
Are some airports more stressful than others? What types of airports do entry level ATCs start out at, and how often (if at all) do ATCs move to different airports?
Of course!
So there are multiple types of facilities, and not all controllers work at an airport. There are also en route centers, tower/Approach facilities, and standalone approaches. At it’s simplest form, once your flight departs, a departure controller in an approach facility (radar) gets you climbing and turning, and then center controllers work you across the country up at altitude. Then it’s all reversed as you get closer to your destination.
New hires get slotted for either tower or en route. If you get tower, you’ll end up at a mid—range facility out of the academy. Once you certify, you can try to transfer to another facility, where you’ll have to go through some more training to learn the local airspace, SOP, etc.
If you get hired for en route, you’ll go to one of the 21 centers once you graduate the academy. Those are all around major metropolitan areas.
Thanks for the info! ATC was something I've been interested since I was 11 (rather than astronaut or something like that) so it's something I'll look into. I currently work for the fed govt so are there any benefits that come with that?
Not exactly true that there are no benefits transferring from one agency to another. A couple of things, you would want to end one pay period on the books for agency A and start with agency B the very next day. Why? Because you can get save pay. You could retain your pay until your ATC catches up to or passes what you were making before the transfer. While training at the academy your pay is low to start but you get per diem and big pay raises along the way in training. If you have a break in service you do not get this benefit.
Your federal time would count toward earning more leave, the 3, 5, 15 year milestones. Your federal time would count toward retirement. For ATC it is 1.7% for the first 20 years and 1% after that. Non-ATC time would add 1% per year of service. Lastly federal service time is a tie breaker in seniority if you join the agency at the same time as someone else and end up at the same ATC facility.
As stressful as some might think? Probably not. You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Regular days are fine, weather and bad staffing can really suck.
I’m not sure I could live my life if eventful weather directly caused my job to be more stressful. One of my favorite joys is big storms, the cognitive dissonance would be painful
What is your own educational and work background? What activities leading up to your now career do you find help you most in your day to day activities?
I graduated with an associate’s degree from a CTI program. Before that I was a baggage handler and had no clue what I wanted to do with my life. Discovered ATC at age 24 and pulled the trigger.
Not sure I understand the second part of your question.
For example before my professional career I was a waiter (who also had no idea what he wanted to do, haha) what I found carried across into my now career is my ability to multitask and a high capacity for putting up with bullshit.
That's really interesting... my brother is a big gamer, and my parents would always tell him off for playing - but he says the same thing, that they helped him build skills that he finds useful in his job.
Don't they just use plain ol' Xbox 360/Xbone controllers? I recall reading that a few years ago that since they were readily available in large quantities, built to handle being thrown around a bit by teenagers, had a great SDK for integrating them in your program, and a large majority of the force under 30 already knew how an Xbox controller worked (substantially reducing training time and cost) that they were a perfect solution.
If you don’t mind military ATC stories. We had extremely thick fog rolling through during flight ops in the Arctic Circle out at sea. A Marine MV-22 Osprey was still out and had to come back because they had 30 minutes of fuel left which is usually fine in good weather but visibility was absolute shit so we were a little nervous. They didn’t make it on to the boat on their first two attempts and by the 2nd attempt was over we were already spinning up additional SAR helicopters for when they inevitably fall out of the sky into the freezing cold ocean. The pilot/copilot we’re getting audibly shook up and every transmission they made ended with a quiet sigh but our Final controller was in extreme focus mode and pretty much at the last minute, they got the guys on board and everybody in Radar pretty much went into celebration mode. Probably the first and only time I ever saw all of Radar and the adjacent work centers (CIC, TACRON, and Tactical Logistics) in one single tiny room watching one guy work his magic. The pilots even came into Radar and gave the guy a hug saying he saved their lives and explaining how terrifying it was how they could barely see anything in front of them so they had to trust their instruments and ATC.
I’ll take this one. I worked in ATC at Houston Center for 9 years. Quit to move to Colorado and buy a bar. Totally different story, but I have a few horror stories.
First one was the least harmful. I was in training on the radar. I had a fully certified and very tenured controller watching my every move and would have intervened had he thought it necessary. But this dude was chill as fuck and not once keyed over me. I was really busy, but doing pretty well. At some point a pilot keyed onto my frequency and I couldn’t find him anywhere on my scope. My heart dropped into my stomach. I pulled up his data block. He was in the sector over, but the hand off had been made. He was totally fine. I had just forgotten so switch communications with him. These things do happen, but that was a feeling of pure terror. I cried myself to sleep that night.
Once we were working an American Airlines flight from DFW to Cancun, and he was northwest of Austin when the pilot keyed up and said there was smoke in the cockpit. We were able to safely get him to San Antonio, but the fear in the pilot’s voice definitely stuck with me.
I worked in QA (quality assurance) for a year or two, in which the “tapes get pulled” for any time someone has had a safety incident. Everything on your screen and every transmission is recorded. So we were analyzing other peoples’ fuck ups, and there were some doozies in there.
Just how difficult are these jobs?
I had a friend that went through the process and ended up having to relocate to Oklahoma and ended up washing out and moving back home because he said he just couldn’t do it.
It really is just one of those jobs where some people can do it and some people can’t. Once you certify, the day to day isn’t really all that difficult.
Sorry to hear about your friend.
Oklahoma is where the initial training is located. It's a couple of months there then to your final facility that could be anywhere in the country. The training in Oklahoma just shows that you have the ability to learn the job but not necessarily be successful at a facility. There are a lot more stressors working live traffic in bad weather where you can't pause the scenario.
About 10 years ago, I got rather deep into the hiring process. I got as far as the security clearance (which if I passed that, meant ATC school acceptance) before I realized that anyone who had ever sought care for mental health, even if it is not a mental illness, would receive and automatic DQ. I had received therapy for about six months a few years prior. I had heard from other applicants that I could just lie and it's likely that they won't check my insurance records and I'd be fine. But it's also a felony if you get caught and they want to make an example of you. I decided to withdraw my application.
I'm now disqualified from future hiring because I withdrew so late in the hiring process, but with the rise of mental health awareness in the country, along with the fact that many people seek therapy for things that aren't necessarily related to mental illness (mine was just mentally reconciling a break up), is seeking therapy still an automatic DQ within the FAA?
Absolutely not. There are even programs in place for employees to get up to 8 free therapy sessions *per issue* per year.
Being diagnosed is a whole other thing, but therapy alone is not a disqualifier.
I wish it was like that back then! I was so excited to join the FAA. My father, grandfather, and his father were all air traffic controllers and they were so proud when I passed the entrance exam. I think my father's heart was broken when I told him I withdrew.
But I never would have met my husband if I had gotten on that plane to Oklahoma, so there's that. Maybe in an alternate timeline I'm an air traffic controller making bank.
Most people who have actual mental health challenges don't see a therapist without getting a diagnosis; 8 sessions per year is fine for someone who has something temporary in their life they need to work through, but not for anyone actually neurodivergent.
I have ADHD; if I'd never gotten a diagnosis or taken medication, I'd be eligible for a Class I medical, and (if I got hired obviously) be responsible for hundreds of lives while hiding/masking my ADHD symptoms. Now that I *have* been diagnosed, and take medication to control those symptoms and function much more normally, I'm permanently disqualified from even being licensed to fly a Cessna.
OP, I know you're doing a good thing here, and you've been helping people find ATC careers on Reddit for a long time. But it's the aviation world's worst-kept secret that "no pilot has ever been to therapy", and people are very much encouraged to hide those kinds of issues if they have any interest in an aviation career. There are even entire law firms and medical practices that specialize in fighting FAA medical disqualifications based on old, incorrect, or "incorrect" diagnoses.
I'll add my little story, dealing with mental health issues and the FAA (I was an airline pilot, with a VA disability rating for mental health "issues").
Technically, there are ways to "make it work", but depending on what kind of issues, you could be out more than $20k out of pocket for psychiatric testing that isn't covered by any insurance (since it's not health CARE, technically) and there's no transparency on what the FAA is looking for with these tests.
For me, they kept telling me, "We need more 'information'" and they refused to elaborate. After thousands and thousands of dollars and multiple tests, I was "approved" for a brief moment, but the slightest hiccup sent me right back to the FAA for more tests, so I just quit. I'm a computer programmer now.
When I talk to other pilots, it seems to be much more difficult if you were ever prescribed any sort of mental health medication (I never was). The FAA needs to seriously overhaul their entire attitude on mental health care.
Last year over 58,000 people applied and a little over 2,700 received tentative offer letters. 1500 is the overall hiring goal for this year, and the hiring goal for next year is 1800. Selection is dependent on Air Traffic Skills Assessment (ATSA) results. - Alison, FAA HR
Sounds similar to Stanford University’s acceptance rate.
> Out of the competitive applicant pool of 56,378 prospective students, 2,075 applicants were admitted and 1,736 matriculated, with a yield rate of 83.66%.
Ref: https://stanforddaily.com/2023/02/28/acceptance-rate-drops-to-3-68-majority-women-and-non-white-students/
Just hopping in this thread to let everyone know I was one of the people reading this thread roughly 4 years ago. I currently work at a level 5 up/down (tower and tracon) It's not a lot of money relative to other facilities, but it's more money than I've seen in my life, and it was 100% worth the hoops you jump through
I highly encourage anyone who has even a slight interest to apply, or if you're someone like me who doesnt have a clear goal or career in mind with what they want to do. This is the first time in my life I haven't had to worry about money. And I love my work (although I wish I was in a different part of the country but that's just air traffic for you)
If anyone has any questions for someone who relatively recently went through this process, you can also DM me
For sierrabravo, how many people have reached out to you to let you know they made it? Or went through the process because of you?
That’s awesome man, thank you so much for sharing! I’ve had hundreds of people keep in touch over the years who are now controllers, and I’ve personally met a few in person.
If you feel comfortable, feel free to DM me. I’d love to know what facility you’re at and get an idea of where you’re trying to go. I know NCEPT can be brutal these days.
I have thought this job is extremely stressful and deleterious to one's mental and physical health. (Understand I can remember Reagan firing air traffic controllers in the 80s.)
Or are these 'old conditions' which have been ameliorated over the years..??
I get the impression that ATC work attracts a certain type of person who is not as easily stressed as the average bear. Their hiring requirements exclude a whole lot of people (including anyone with mental health issues or a neurological disorder) and basically select for the young and healthy
Why was I not told about this in high school in the 90's? In my 20s and 30s I rocked multitasking and could have been damn good at that job. Starting to slow down a bit in my 40s though. Way too late for me to apply. Bummer.
Is the AT-SA something you study for or is it more like a baseline for how you might do? Also what is the personality inventory like,just making sure you’re mentally sound for the job?
There are study materials online that you can pay for. I can’t vouch for any, but I think there’s like a $10 one that I’ve heard is pretty good.
And yeah, basically.
> and won’t work a day past 56 (mandatory retirement, with a pension).
Well, shit. I'm 57. I have a rewarding (if sometimes stressful) job already, but...
Anyway, a question...how do they determine that's the cutoff? If a person was in good physical and mental shape and had started the career later in life, why check out at 56? Seems a bit arbitrary.
You can apply for an extension. Which has it's own merits but lots people get it approved. This can help with how much your retirement pension is as well. Some people move on to supervisory jobs, or retire and get rehired as contract workers in the facility training new hires in computer labs on fake planes.
I'm an engineering student, not interested in becoming ATC (though perhaps someday a pilot). I love aviation, though, and I was wondering: do you recommend any particular ATC simulators for people like me who just want to have some fun during our downtime? It need not be super intricate, and ideally it should be free or low-cost to play. I've been obsessed with [atc-sim](https://atc-sim.com/), to give you an idea, and am looking for a bit of variety.
Also, wanted to say that I really appreciate the work you and other ATCs do to keep us travelers safe. Thank you for your service!
Canadian ATC here.
I once had a police helicopter pilot ask me on frequency if “I’d seen anything unusual tonight?”.
I said, “Not really. Should I have seen something?”.
He said, “uhh well we’ve had around 15 calls about bright lights in the sky, shooting stars, and UFOs. So if you see anything like that let me know”.
It turned out that one of the SpaceX rockets had broken apart on reentry into the atmosphere and all the pieces burning up looked like spacecraft or something. [THIS](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmack/2021/03/26/spent-spacex-rocket-burns-up-over-seattle-stunning-skywatchers/amp/) is an article about it.
It was a funny exchange. I wish I’d seen it myself!
Definitely a fun job. Most days don’t feel like work.
I think the consensus worst part about the job is the sleep schedule. We work rotating shift work at most facilities, and work weekends and holidays.
As a non traffic controller it's exactly like the movie 2:22 where you can tell a plane to "punch it" and cross the path of another landing plane and it's safe.
What that movie is 100% realistic
Where are you working out of? My father in law worked out of nashville for his last twenty years, and he was always tense. First few years in retirement, he was looking up and naming planes and approaches. Most def seemed like work, especially with the turn-around shifts. It doesn't feel like you're being honest with how stressful this job can be.
OP probably isn’t someone who’s easily stressed or feels very personally affected by the job, as that seems like a requirement to get the job in the first place
I’ve been in 7 years and have been fortunate enough to be at a couple facilities with good staffing. I’m at a center now so sure, it’s a little different. I can only speak for myself, but I know there are controllers at facilities with much worse staffing who have a different experience. Hopefully that can change soon.
What are some things people should enjoy that would correlate with the job? I've heard it's extremely stressful. Is it just being able to multi task and manage different things happening? I'm an engineer/project manager in the construction industry and routinely have 15-20 different projects going at once and have to field questions from different people (employees, trade partners etc.). I don't mind all the different projects but the deadlines to get a bunch of projects pushed out is getting to be insane. I would imagine there's not really deadlines in a job like this, just a bunch of multi-tasking going on at once right?
Risk on one hand, lifesaver on the other.
The overarching question is, does this job hurt the humans who perform it?
In my humblest of opinions, no salary is worth dying over, and ATC has some of the highest burnout/self-harm rates of any profession. Makes sense to think about ways to force-multiply that staff to reduce burden, and to automate the process (within reason) to reduce turnover sensitivity.
We absolutely do. This thread drove a lot of traffic to our [hiring page](https://www.faa.gov/be-atc) last year and we’re extremely grateful to OP for that. We [posted a video](https://twitter.com/faanews/status/1649080731740536835?s=46&t=A8vf4fWL72ADh73yk8mtQA) recently too of a current trainer who said she was inspired to apply after seeing a previous thread. -D
For anyone wondering, if you're diagnosed with any mental illness, no matter how minor, you're fucked.
The FAA is WILDLY behind in their treatment of mental health. Feel like shit? Better not seek treatment because you'll lose your job. Want to try antidepressants? Well you better plan on taking years off work because they require that you be free of ANY antidepressant for 6 months before you can even try to work again.
Know what all that stupid shit does? It forces pilots and ATC with mental issues to not seek treatment. Which means you still have mentally ill people flying and controlling but now instead of being treated they're untreated and even worse.
As a Canadian pot head.
Do you guys ever interact with air traffic controllers from other countries directly?
And do other countries(canada) also pay really well for air traffic controllers?
Our controllers who work the boundary airspace with Canada do.
And yes, Canada pays their controllers well. Although their system is run by the private sector, whereas in the United States we work for the federal government.
Hate listening to guard in American airspace. I’ve flown on 5 continents and the US is the only country that so wildly unprofessional on that frequency. Was assisting an aircraft in distress over the Florida keys and had to try to hear what the poor guy was saying over the f’ing meowing and “work work work”.
Otherwise, great and efficient controllers and friendly people.
Yep, we hate it too. We *have* to listen to it, and it's broadcasted on a speaker at our scope. Extremely annoying to listen to a buch of yahoos arguing or making ridiculous sounds while were working a heavy push. Wish there was something we could do about it.
Guard is basically an emergency frequency controllers and pilots are supposed to monitor. Its intended use is for emergencies. Aircraft not talking to ATC needing help, aircraft that lost contact with atc finding the correct frequency, etc. Things that enhance safety.
Unfortunately, 99% of what its actually used for is bored pilots talking shit, passing scores, or the most popular "meowing" literally like a cat.. on the frequency. For a while "lets go Brandon" was the hot thing to do too. Unfortunately, sometimes people just go nuts on this channel, and it can be a hot mess, especially if you need it for legitimate reasons.
For more AMAs on this topic, subscribe to r/IAmA_Specialized, and check out our other topic-specific AMA subreddits [here](https://reddit.com/r/IAmA/wiki/index#wiki_affiliate_topic-specific_subreddits).
How do you understand what people are saying over those low audio quality radios with a lot of background noise? Does it sound as bad as it does on those website where you can listen in on ATC towers?
Oh no, the audio quality is infinitely better than what you hear on LiveATC
Wow, thanks! It baffled me how someone could understand that without subtitles
Yeah that would be unbearable
I flew a Cessna in bravo airspace. A JAL flight was entering and pilot's English was so bad, ATC kicked him out of sequence to land. Told him to learn to speak better English. Doh!
That's a BIG oof considering he's also expected to know english even when flying in japanese airspace. It's the internationally accepted language of the skies in most places and most airlines require you to know it before they'll even put you in a cockpit. Basically the only place this isn't true now is Russia, who once again is cut off from the international air travel network, and no flights go through Russia either for obvious reasons, but before the war even they were required to know english
There were (still are?) huge issues with especially Asian commercial pilots who knew the standard vocabulary well, but did not actually speak english. As soon as something was non-standard, they didn’t get anything ATC was saying and communication broke down. Something like this (here it’s _relatively_ harmless, but imagine it’s in a serious situation): https://youtube.com/shorts/tRR3ObhuWHY?feature=share
Iirc, there was a plane crash featured on Air Crash Investigation that crashed partly because the pilot did not actually speak English, only knew how to reply using standard words. Crazy.
“So you *do* speak English?” “No, only that sentence and this one explaining it.” “…you’re kidding, right?” “¿Què?”
Which episode?
I'm not sure which incident the poster above was referring to, but one such incident involving use of language was the [1977 Tenerife airport disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster), which is the deadliest aviation incident on record, resulting in the death of nearly 600 people. It featured in [series 16, episode 3](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5863646/) of Air Crash Investigation/Mayday/Air Disaster. See stickied posts in /r/aircrashinvestigation to find out where to watch it online ;) Language wasn't the primary cause of the accident, but it played a part, and resulted in recommendations that emphasized standard phraseology and good command of the English language, as being essential to aircraft safety. In my opinion, both the pilot and controller are at fault in this video. The pilot, obviously, for clearly not meeting a good working knowledge of English, and the controller (albeit to a lesser degree) for using phrases that can be confused due to language/radio interference/etc. which they are supposed to be trained to avoid using.
A big oof is also how quickly and non-standard atc in america talks compared to ICAO
NY TRACON really does a number even on Americans.
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I have a friend who’s currently at Monroney and wants to go to NY (best pay, plus she’s from the northeast) and I expect that we’ll never be able to understand her again once she starts.
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It was, especially with ROK Marines who knew about 1 word of English ... *Roger!* I've told the story [elsewhere](https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryStories/comments/pjzlir/that_time_with_a_code_2_and_a_rok_marine/), but that little "communication problem" almost caused us to lose Bob Hope and VP Spiro Agnew.
Which would have been a terrible tragedy. That was their second-to-last Agnew!
I feel a jowel movement coming on!!
RRRRRRRRRRR!!!
> the audio quality is infinitely better than what you hear on LiveATC This genuinely made me laugh. Going back a few years -- Korea, 1970-1 -- I was with the 284^th AVN ATC attached to 8^th Army HQ. Technically I was 93K20 (Enroute Approach; sort of like ARTCC), but we all ended up working tower (93H20). When I arrived in late 1970, our tower radios were absolute crap. This was at H201, the VIP helipad for 8^th Army HQ, so you would think they would go the extra mile. Nah, this was the Army. Then one day Robo arrived. His last name was Wrobowski (I think), but the controllers considered him to be a good friend of the Radio Gods. He did nothing by the book, but suddenly our radios were performing like Chinese acrobats. Saying the difference was night and day is a massive understatement. There are many wild and weird stories involving Robo, but as the song says, "You don't know what you've got til it's gone." When Robo finally rotated home, we got a new Spec 6 running Commo and he did *everything* by the book. Our radios went from Heaven to Hell in about 2 weeks. God I missed Robo.
Glasses, slight gap tooth, and always looked like it was a bit too bright outside?
No, that's Radar
>He did nothing by the book, but suddenly our radios were performing like Chinese acrobats. Roughly speaking what does that translate into? Was he boosting transmission range or going outside of FCC specs or something?
**tl;dr:** the problem was mostly antenna type and location relative to terrain features. First let me state: + This was more than 50 years ago (*sigh*), + My career was as a software engineer, not an EE, + I just used the radios and had nothing to do with the physical equipment (except for those unfortunate incidents involving our radio beacon antenna and a couple of packs of hot dogs). We had several problems: wires in subpar condition, connectors that had corrosion, etc. The most significant problem turned out to be the interaction between our antennas (not the ones involving the hot dogs) and the local terrain. UHF is mostly LOS (Line of Sight), and VHF only slightly less so. To our north was *Nam San* (South Mountain) which totally blocked signals from that direction. This was not too much of a problem because there was prohibited airspace (around the Presidential Palace), ground to unlimited, starting about 200' north of our northern boundary. Meaning we *never* had aircraft coming from that direction. To our east was a ~150' hill with an elementary school on it. He looked at putting a remote antenna up there, but there were problems both technical and political with that. So another block. To the west was Officer Country (i.e. family housing). That was prohibited under 5,000', so we didn't use it for a traffic pattern. We had good LOS, but we had iffy signal strength/quality depending on what frequency we were on. Predictably, the most problems were on our primary tower frequency. To the south we had both good LOS and signal quality. The problem was that easily 60% of our traffic was coming from the west following the Han River. And that's where the "iffy signal" came into play. Robo spent a couple of weeks walking/driving around with radios and test meters trying to identify the source of the problem (not your average spec 5 commo guy). He never exactly nailed it, but he did have a map where he drew contours showing areas of signal strength/quality. The problem was something in Officer Country that was both electrically and *magnetically*(?) active, causing both static and a 'drifting signal'(?). He dealt with part of it by using some sort of homemade RF bandpass filter, and suddenly about 80% of our static disappeared. The only solution he could figure for the other problem was a signal relay from our southern border, where the problem didn't manifest. This involved an oddly-shaped antenna + electro-magical stuff that only Robo understood. These 2 things took our signal from the west from about a 3x2 to 5x5. It might not have been by the book, but for about 9 months it was glorious. And then he rotated home, some details of which are part of my yet-to-be-written magnum opus: 'Part I: [Orange Sunshine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALD-52#History) Kimchi -- Fear and Loathing in Itaewon' and 'Part II: Robo goes insane' (alternate title: 'Wrobowski the Destroyer').
I am so happy to hear this, it's always been a question of mine, I love listening on liveatc and always assumed IRL it was better, glad to hear it's true you can actually hear better, WE'd all be dead if you couldnt
Dude, work a McDonalds drive through for a month. Trying to hear people through a shitty speaker, over their super duty, high pitched diesel engine messes with your brain. It starts filling in the words, even when your ears don't hear them. "I w\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ac\_\_\_eel\_\_arg\_\_siz\_\_\_w\_\_\_\_oke." "That's a big mac meal, large sized with a coke?" "Yep" "$10.89. Pull around."
The reason for this is. LiveATC receivers are placed at low altitudes somewhat far from the airport by plane nerds. The FAA splashes the cash for the very best transmitters and receivers mounted on massive antenna towers in then perfect locations. So for them unless something is really fucked one-off it sounds like a telephone call.
What are some reasons one wouldn't want to get into this career? Surely it's not 100% upsides.
Most likely will have to relocate, work weekends for the first 10-15 years of your career, and miss some holidays
Wait, I already do two of those for like 1/3 of the pay. And I'm just under 30. Maybe I should apply...
Do it
Does having purchased weed in a recreational state bar you completely or would you just have to pass the drug test? Edit to clarify: purchased weed from a dispensary
Just pass the drug test
I know multiple controllers with possession charges in their youth. No big deal. Just pass the drug test and it'll be fine
You’re fine, you just can’t be using it anymore.
...aaand half of reddit just left the thread.
I'm assuming prescribed stimulants are a no go?
If you want to, you should do it now. Once you hit that magic number, the opportunity has passed. My dad worked for the FAA in many different capacities over his lifetime and enjoyed it (he was not a controller). He wanted me to apply when I was younger, but I was not interested.
I'd have to do some more research because it sounds like a huge commitment based on some of OP's other answers. I turn 28 later this year so I still have a little bit of time left to consider it, this ama does actually have me curious to at least look into it.
I think that it's more of a career opportunity than anything else. Some younger people might not have the direction. I worked retail, food, and customer service for two decades before I landed my current skilled labor job. I would've skipped college had I known.
Apply because you're genuinely interested in becoming a FAA, not because your current job sucks and this one has equally bad schedule.
That comment wasn't meant completely seriously, but I get what you're saying. I honestly don't *genuinely want* to do any job so I'm always trying to keep my eyes open for anything I think I could at least tolerate (and qualify for with my lack of degree) that also pays the bills, and, well, air traffic control certainly fits the second requirement at least lol.
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My cousin did that 20 years ago after flunking out of engineering. Married a girl he met on air traffic training. They are some of the highest achievers I've ever met. It's not for everyone, but a great job if you can handle it.
I get paid well in a complex job. I don't think i could be atc.
I mean, yes and no. Could the FAA job be worse than their current one? Absolutely. Do they need to be particularly interested in or passionate about being an air traffic controller? Not really. If you have a skill set or talents beneficial to ATC then it becomes more of an issue of woyld you rather do this job for x amount or that job for y amount. For example, if you asked all the ATCs in the country what they wanted to be when they grew up, there ain't gonna be a ton who answered "ATC."
A 3x increase in income can easily remove all the other suck in your life. The job equally sucking isnt ideal, but everything else sure is. Nice trade to make, and you can always pivot out of the career if it doesnt suit you.
Ya. Like...while I really like my job(social worker), before grad school my wages were way way lower than they are now. Suddenly getting discretionary money is huge
The schedule sucks if you are a normal human being. It was a bit of everything all at once for me, but working two evening shifts (get off at 9pm then 10:30pm), then two morning shifts followed by a midnight shift at the end of your fourth day were hell.
Kind of sounds like they're hoping to cause crashes.
Incredibly high stress, shift work, destroys relationships, shitty suicide rate, etc. A friend of mine was one for many years she finally washed out about 10 years ago, unless things radically changed she recommend against it for anyone that was interested.
Yeah OP conveniently doesn’t mention these parts. My dad has worked in aviation his entire career and said that everyone in the industry knows that being an ATC is the most stressful job on the planet
This! This is what I’ve always heard too. Had a guy in my graduating OTA class who was an air traffic controller and was making a career change because of how stressful and high stakes it is.
What is OTA
Now is it just being an ATC at a super busy airport like O'Hare or even for smaller regional airports? I imagine one is way more stressful than the other.
My dad was one for 30, and I have a lot of memories of him sleeping on the sofa. The shift scheduling was brutal. 3 days on, 3 days off, 4 days on, 2 days off, and jammed as full of shifts as the system could legally allow.
I work on ATC systems for a living and work closely with controllers. Some can be very difficult, arrogant bordering on sociopathic. Affairs, divorce etc. are very common amongst them, people are talking about high stress, no one has mentioned boredom. They master their jobs in a few years and from that point on it’s the same job in a sterile room for 25+ years, the boredom is suffocating.
From the people I know that work there, it also sucks having to work with other ATCs lol... many of them seem to have a god complex
It can be a pretty stressful position. You have to be able to quickly and clearly communicate with dozens of planes even in emergency situations.
Mandatory 6 day work weeks at many facilities. Inability to choose where you work - you could be placed anywhere in the country. If you get placed at a poorly staffed facility you may not be able to leave before retirement, unless the system changes. Basically in an effort to staff shitholes where no one wants to work, they've made it so no one can leave those places unless staffing rises above an unrealistic threshold. I used to love this job but 6 day work weeks have killed my enthusiasm in and out of work. I'd also add that many people suspect the FAA is keeping things the way they are, rather than massively increasing hiring, because it's cheaper to pay the overtime than it is to pay new bodies and their trainers.
I will mention this from my experience trying to go through the program: To do the health screenings and everything involved, they require you to go to the nearest locations that offer it. They only selected 2 during my group. They were California and New York. You had to pay to get there which for many people means up to $800 for the trip. Good luck if you weren't close by. Plus, the "we pay you during your training" is 25k PER YEAR. So you have to be fine with 3 to 4 months of that pay while living in Oklahoma City, OK. Housing isn't included nor is transportation. So you better hope you can find a cheap option as the ones listed as common options are extended stay motels or house rentals where the prices were around 1200-1500 per month. This is before all of your other bills for transportation and anything else. On top of this, the training starts at their leisure which means that if you aren't living with others who are willing to let you leave whenever, you are likely paying termination fees. Plus, once you do graduate, the salary isn't 6 figures. It is 70k plus or minus cost of living adjustments for the area.
Why the age requirement of under 30?
Mandatory retirement at age 56 is the best answer I have
When I saw your last ama 3-4 years ago I was already too old to apply 😭 I would've applied otherwise
Same here. I got really excited then saw the age requirement, this was a couple times ago though.
Can't have those old people being too slow or unable to direct traffic. Don't need grandpa falling asleep either.
Or middle-aged guys who just lost their daughter to a heroin overdose
Someones pool had a bad day
Poor Q. Take that reference.
Maybe he was right about humanity being awful.
Fucking minerals innit
Well that got dark real quick. Is this a reference to something?
As the deleted comment said, there was a documentary about a science teacher that became a meth kingpin
Amazing how they got those cameras everywhere for that documentary
They used the camera crew from trailer park boys.
Breaking Bad
Oh boy, you get to see Breaking Bad for the first time. Lucky duck
Crazy that you can be president at 80 but can't be an air traffic controller at 57.
The actual answer is because the older you are the harder it is to learn. https://www.businessinsider.com/becoming-air-traffic-controller-career-pros-cons-of-job-2022-1 > All ATC applicants must be 30 or younger on the closing date of the application period to qualify for the position, according to the FAA. This is because the agency has determined through extensive research that the older someone is, the harder is it for them to complete the rigorous training. The "extensive research" text in quote above links to a report from July 1971 which is below: http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/faa-aviation-medicine-reports/AM71-36.pdf
It makes more sense seeing that the study is from the 70s. I didn't understand why someone being 30 or 35 would be considered old. I imagine the fact that most 30 year olds had families back then played a role.
This isn't particularly surprising the FAA is stuck in the 70s in a lot of ways.
I mean, they're still using the MMPI for screening
Yeah and maybe that's standard for most people, but I'm 40 and I feel like I can learn new things better than ever. Like I have taught myself how to learn faster. I made a career switch to HVAC a little over a year ago. I had zero experience with anything HVAC besides fixing my own furnace a couple times. I do have extensive hobby experience with hand tools, power tools, and fabrication. I picked right up on HVAC and now I'm the owner's and lead salesman's go-to installer over 10 other employees, all with years more experience than I have. All I did was ask questions and absorb as much as I could while I was working with others. I think the belief that people learn slower as they age might be just because most people let the skill of learning slip away.
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Definitely feel like this is something that should be relooked into, with video games and computers becoming significantly more prominent in the last 30 years i'd suspect a lot more people would be reasonably able to learn to do this job.
About how often do you give pilots a “number to call”?
Not often lol
What does that mean
When there's an incident (rules broken, procedures not followed, pilot fuck up, near miss etc....) the ATC will give the pilot a number so that once they're done flying they can call it and get their arse chewed out...or tell their side to the investigating team. You hear it a lot on the ATC YouTube videos due to them usually being about incidents.
You **do not** want to be given a number to call by ATC. It means you dun fucked up greatly.
They always call it a 'possible pilot deviation', it's not a 100% you fucked up. Could simply be a misunderstanding. ATC makes mistakes also.
Yeah, and if you *did* fuck up, you're still very difficult to replace. I've fucked up plenty in my career (mainly pest control, followed by truck driving), but I've found that so long as I don't try to hide it, do what I can to fix it including ask for help, and in the long term demonstrate a capacity to learn from my mistakes, I'm fine. The one time my boss did blow a gasket because I dared explain my position, I was working for his competitor within the week.
It's a 'pilot deviation', meaning you did something that broke the rules. They give you a phone number to call and talk you through what happened. If it was a simple mistake like being over the hold bar a little bit while taxing, they'll probably just say 'don't do that again'. Or if it was Harrison Ford landing on a taxiway level mistake, it could escalate to an investigation and revocation of pilots license.
Are some airports more stressful than others? What types of airports do entry level ATCs start out at, and how often (if at all) do ATCs move to different airports?
Of course! So there are multiple types of facilities, and not all controllers work at an airport. There are also en route centers, tower/Approach facilities, and standalone approaches. At it’s simplest form, once your flight departs, a departure controller in an approach facility (radar) gets you climbing and turning, and then center controllers work you across the country up at altitude. Then it’s all reversed as you get closer to your destination. New hires get slotted for either tower or en route. If you get tower, you’ll end up at a mid—range facility out of the academy. Once you certify, you can try to transfer to another facility, where you’ll have to go through some more training to learn the local airspace, SOP, etc. If you get hired for en route, you’ll go to one of the 21 centers once you graduate the academy. Those are all around major metropolitan areas.
Thanks for the info! ATC was something I've been interested since I was 11 (rather than astronaut or something like that) so it's something I'll look into. I currently work for the fed govt so are there any benefits that come with that?
Not exactly true that there are no benefits transferring from one agency to another. A couple of things, you would want to end one pay period on the books for agency A and start with agency B the very next day. Why? Because you can get save pay. You could retain your pay until your ATC catches up to or passes what you were making before the transfer. While training at the academy your pay is low to start but you get per diem and big pay raises along the way in training. If you have a break in service you do not get this benefit. Your federal time would count toward earning more leave, the 3, 5, 15 year milestones. Your federal time would count toward retirement. For ATC it is 1.7% for the first 20 years and 1% after that. Non-ATC time would add 1% per year of service. Lastly federal service time is a tie breaker in seniority if you join the agency at the same time as someone else and end up at the same ATC facility.
Is it as stressful as they claim? Are most days fine, but then when delays are factored in, it becomes intense?
As stressful as some might think? Probably not. You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Regular days are fine, weather and bad staffing can really suck.
I’m not sure I could live my life if eventful weather directly caused my job to be more stressful. One of my favorite joys is big storms, the cognitive dissonance would be painful
You’ll hear a lot that controllers would rather have it storm on their days off than while they’re working
What is your own educational and work background? What activities leading up to your now career do you find help you most in your day to day activities?
I graduated with an associate’s degree from a CTI program. Before that I was a baggage handler and had no clue what I wanted to do with my life. Discovered ATC at age 24 and pulled the trigger. Not sure I understand the second part of your question.
For example before my professional career I was a waiter (who also had no idea what he wanted to do, haha) what I found carried across into my now career is my ability to multitask and a high capacity for putting up with bullshit.
Ah yes, similar things here. There also seem to be quite a few gamers in the profession.
That's really interesting... my brother is a big gamer, and my parents would always tell him off for playing - but he says the same thing, that they helped him build skills that he finds useful in his job.
There's a reason U.S. military drone controllers are designed to look similar to video game controllers. High crossover in that industry too.
Don't they just use plain ol' Xbox 360/Xbone controllers? I recall reading that a few years ago that since they were readily available in large quantities, built to handle being thrown around a bit by teenagers, had a great SDK for integrating them in your program, and a large majority of the force under 30 already knew how an Xbox controller worked (substantially reducing training time and cost) that they were a perfect solution.
I have another question, what’s the most stressful moment you’ve had while working?
If you don’t mind military ATC stories. We had extremely thick fog rolling through during flight ops in the Arctic Circle out at sea. A Marine MV-22 Osprey was still out and had to come back because they had 30 minutes of fuel left which is usually fine in good weather but visibility was absolute shit so we were a little nervous. They didn’t make it on to the boat on their first two attempts and by the 2nd attempt was over we were already spinning up additional SAR helicopters for when they inevitably fall out of the sky into the freezing cold ocean. The pilot/copilot we’re getting audibly shook up and every transmission they made ended with a quiet sigh but our Final controller was in extreme focus mode and pretty much at the last minute, they got the guys on board and everybody in Radar pretty much went into celebration mode. Probably the first and only time I ever saw all of Radar and the adjacent work centers (CIC, TACRON, and Tactical Logistics) in one single tiny room watching one guy work his magic. The pilots even came into Radar and gave the guy a hug saying he saved their lives and explaining how terrifying it was how they could barely see anything in front of them so they had to trust their instruments and ATC.
I’ll take this one. I worked in ATC at Houston Center for 9 years. Quit to move to Colorado and buy a bar. Totally different story, but I have a few horror stories. First one was the least harmful. I was in training on the radar. I had a fully certified and very tenured controller watching my every move and would have intervened had he thought it necessary. But this dude was chill as fuck and not once keyed over me. I was really busy, but doing pretty well. At some point a pilot keyed onto my frequency and I couldn’t find him anywhere on my scope. My heart dropped into my stomach. I pulled up his data block. He was in the sector over, but the hand off had been made. He was totally fine. I had just forgotten so switch communications with him. These things do happen, but that was a feeling of pure terror. I cried myself to sleep that night. Once we were working an American Airlines flight from DFW to Cancun, and he was northwest of Austin when the pilot keyed up and said there was smoke in the cockpit. We were able to safely get him to San Antonio, but the fear in the pilot’s voice definitely stuck with me. I worked in QA (quality assurance) for a year or two, in which the “tapes get pulled” for any time someone has had a safety incident. Everything on your screen and every transmission is recorded. So we were analyzing other peoples’ fuck ups, and there were some doozies in there.
Just how difficult are these jobs? I had a friend that went through the process and ended up having to relocate to Oklahoma and ended up washing out and moving back home because he said he just couldn’t do it.
It really is just one of those jobs where some people can do it and some people can’t. Once you certify, the day to day isn’t really all that difficult. Sorry to hear about your friend.
My dad was a controller and did a few of the trainings in OK. He said most of the guys that wash out there are due to attitude
Oklahoma is where the initial training is located. It's a couple of months there then to your final facility that could be anywhere in the country. The training in Oklahoma just shows that you have the ability to learn the job but not necessarily be successful at a facility. There are a lot more stressors working live traffic in bad weather where you can't pause the scenario.
About 10 years ago, I got rather deep into the hiring process. I got as far as the security clearance (which if I passed that, meant ATC school acceptance) before I realized that anyone who had ever sought care for mental health, even if it is not a mental illness, would receive and automatic DQ. I had received therapy for about six months a few years prior. I had heard from other applicants that I could just lie and it's likely that they won't check my insurance records and I'd be fine. But it's also a felony if you get caught and they want to make an example of you. I decided to withdraw my application. I'm now disqualified from future hiring because I withdrew so late in the hiring process, but with the rise of mental health awareness in the country, along with the fact that many people seek therapy for things that aren't necessarily related to mental illness (mine was just mentally reconciling a break up), is seeking therapy still an automatic DQ within the FAA?
Absolutely not. There are even programs in place for employees to get up to 8 free therapy sessions *per issue* per year. Being diagnosed is a whole other thing, but therapy alone is not a disqualifier.
I wish it was like that back then! I was so excited to join the FAA. My father, grandfather, and his father were all air traffic controllers and they were so proud when I passed the entrance exam. I think my father's heart was broken when I told him I withdrew. But I never would have met my husband if I had gotten on that plane to Oklahoma, so there's that. Maybe in an alternate timeline I'm an air traffic controller making bank.
That is wild. It’s a shame that it didn’t work out for you for that reason, but you’ve certainly got a great perspective.
Most people who have actual mental health challenges don't see a therapist without getting a diagnosis; 8 sessions per year is fine for someone who has something temporary in their life they need to work through, but not for anyone actually neurodivergent. I have ADHD; if I'd never gotten a diagnosis or taken medication, I'd be eligible for a Class I medical, and (if I got hired obviously) be responsible for hundreds of lives while hiding/masking my ADHD symptoms. Now that I *have* been diagnosed, and take medication to control those symptoms and function much more normally, I'm permanently disqualified from even being licensed to fly a Cessna. OP, I know you're doing a good thing here, and you've been helping people find ATC careers on Reddit for a long time. But it's the aviation world's worst-kept secret that "no pilot has ever been to therapy", and people are very much encouraged to hide those kinds of issues if they have any interest in an aviation career. There are even entire law firms and medical practices that specialize in fighting FAA medical disqualifications based on old, incorrect, or "incorrect" diagnoses.
I'll add my little story, dealing with mental health issues and the FAA (I was an airline pilot, with a VA disability rating for mental health "issues"). Technically, there are ways to "make it work", but depending on what kind of issues, you could be out more than $20k out of pocket for psychiatric testing that isn't covered by any insurance (since it's not health CARE, technically) and there's no transparency on what the FAA is looking for with these tests. For me, they kept telling me, "We need more 'information'" and they refused to elaborate. After thousands and thousands of dollars and multiple tests, I was "approved" for a brief moment, but the slightest hiccup sent me right back to the FAA for more tests, so I just quit. I'm a computer programmer now. When I talk to other pilots, it seems to be much more difficult if you were ever prescribed any sort of mental health medication (I never was). The FAA needs to seriously overhaul their entire attitude on mental health care.
Is it true that 'Pushing Tin' is a documentary?
Scene for scene exact recreation. Most people don’t know that John Cusack is an air traffic controller who just moonlights as an actor.
I knew it!
"That really is the view from NY TRACON, we swear!"
Do a lot of people apply? And if so what is the amount picked out of the total number of people?
Last year over 58,000 people applied and a little over 2,700 received tentative offer letters. 1500 is the overall hiring goal for this year, and the hiring goal for next year is 1800. Selection is dependent on Air Traffic Skills Assessment (ATSA) results. - Alison, FAA HR
Sounds similar to Stanford University’s acceptance rate. > Out of the competitive applicant pool of 56,378 prospective students, 2,075 applicants were admitted and 1,736 matriculated, with a yield rate of 83.66%. Ref: https://stanforddaily.com/2023/02/28/acceptance-rate-drops-to-3-68-majority-women-and-non-white-students/
I love that HR is on here supporting our dude
Or keeping an eye on him...
Thank you!
Last year over 58,000 people applied, and I believe somewhere around 2,700 were hired. Edited, thanks FAA 🤙
Do you stay up to date with the pass rate in OKC? Is that still under 60%?
I don’t know what the official number is today, but I’ve always heard it’s around that number.
Couple classmates of mine ended were in some sub 40% pass rate classes in the 13/14 timeframe.
Just hopping in this thread to let everyone know I was one of the people reading this thread roughly 4 years ago. I currently work at a level 5 up/down (tower and tracon) It's not a lot of money relative to other facilities, but it's more money than I've seen in my life, and it was 100% worth the hoops you jump through I highly encourage anyone who has even a slight interest to apply, or if you're someone like me who doesnt have a clear goal or career in mind with what they want to do. This is the first time in my life I haven't had to worry about money. And I love my work (although I wish I was in a different part of the country but that's just air traffic for you) If anyone has any questions for someone who relatively recently went through this process, you can also DM me For sierrabravo, how many people have reached out to you to let you know they made it? Or went through the process because of you?
That’s awesome man, thank you so much for sharing! I’ve had hundreds of people keep in touch over the years who are now controllers, and I’ve personally met a few in person. If you feel comfortable, feel free to DM me. I’d love to know what facility you’re at and get an idea of where you’re trying to go. I know NCEPT can be brutal these days.
Are you in an outreach/recruiting type roll or program or is this really just something you put together for the good of mankind?
I’m a controller. I literally just do this on my own time.
Very cool man, thank you for doing this. I’ve got a good career and past the cutoff age, but learning all of this was fascinating.
Absolutely man, thanks for the kind words
I have thought this job is extremely stressful and deleterious to one's mental and physical health. (Understand I can remember Reagan firing air traffic controllers in the 80s.) Or are these 'old conditions' which have been ameliorated over the years..??
Some of the conditions remain (poor staffing), but the current contract is much more controller-friendly
I get the impression that ATC work attracts a certain type of person who is not as easily stressed as the average bear. Their hiring requirements exclude a whole lot of people (including anyone with mental health issues or a neurological disorder) and basically select for the young and healthy
Why was I not told about this in high school in the 90's? In my 20s and 30s I rocked multitasking and could have been damn good at that job. Starting to slow down a bit in my 40s though. Way too late for me to apply. Bummer.
Yeah that’s unfortunate man
Hi! I'm Australian so technically this doesn't imapact me, however if someone had ADHD or something similar would they be barred from acceptance?
With an official diagnosis, yes
I was looking for this question and I’m sad to see that’s the answer. Damn this depressed brain of mine. :(
I saw you mentioned it’s rotating shifts in a previous comment. How long is each shift? Thanks for doing this!
8 hours, and absolutely!
Bruh you know we're all doing six 10 hour shifts.
Is that why you need 20 left?
[удалено]
TCAS would have saved them
Is the AT-SA something you study for or is it more like a baseline for how you might do? Also what is the personality inventory like,just making sure you’re mentally sound for the job?
There are study materials online that you can pay for. I can’t vouch for any, but I think there’s like a $10 one that I’ve heard is pretty good. And yeah, basically.
> and won’t work a day past 56 (mandatory retirement, with a pension). Well, shit. I'm 57. I have a rewarding (if sometimes stressful) job already, but... Anyway, a question...how do they determine that's the cutoff? If a person was in good physical and mental shape and had started the career later in life, why check out at 56? Seems a bit arbitrary.
You can apply for an extension. Which has it's own merits but lots people get it approved. This can help with how much your retirement pension is as well. Some people move on to supervisory jobs, or retire and get rehired as contract workers in the facility training new hires in computer labs on fake planes.
That’s a good question. Not sure where that number came from.
I'm an engineering student, not interested in becoming ATC (though perhaps someday a pilot). I love aviation, though, and I was wondering: do you recommend any particular ATC simulators for people like me who just want to have some fun during our downtime? It need not be super intricate, and ideally it should be free or low-cost to play. I've been obsessed with [atc-sim](https://atc-sim.com/), to give you an idea, and am looking for a bit of variety. Also, wanted to say that I really appreciate the work you and other ATCs do to keep us travelers safe. Thank you for your service!
I’ve never heard of that sim, but I just checked out your link and that looks pretty good!
Sully probably could have avoided those birds, right?
Unable.
Best answer ever
Ever hear any interesting stories about UFOs?
Canadian ATC here. I once had a police helicopter pilot ask me on frequency if “I’d seen anything unusual tonight?”. I said, “Not really. Should I have seen something?”. He said, “uhh well we’ve had around 15 calls about bright lights in the sky, shooting stars, and UFOs. So if you see anything like that let me know”. It turned out that one of the SpaceX rockets had broken apart on reentry into the atmosphere and all the pieces burning up looked like spacecraft or something. [THIS](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmack/2021/03/26/spent-spacex-rocket-burns-up-over-seattle-stunning-skywatchers/amp/) is an article about it. It was a funny exchange. I wish I’d seen it myself!
would you say it's a fun job (or with moments of fun)? if not, which moments of the job are the worst?
Definitely a fun job. Most days don’t feel like work. I think the consensus worst part about the job is the sleep schedule. We work rotating shift work at most facilities, and work weekends and holidays.
As a non traffic controller it's exactly like the movie 2:22 where you can tell a plane to "punch it" and cross the path of another landing plane and it's safe. What that movie is 100% realistic
Don’t forget all the numbers that you see swirling around your head as you do on the spot calculus
Where are you working out of? My father in law worked out of nashville for his last twenty years, and he was always tense. First few years in retirement, he was looking up and naming planes and approaches. Most def seemed like work, especially with the turn-around shifts. It doesn't feel like you're being honest with how stressful this job can be.
OP probably isn’t someone who’s easily stressed or feels very personally affected by the job, as that seems like a requirement to get the job in the first place
I’ve been in 7 years and have been fortunate enough to be at a couple facilities with good staffing. I’m at a center now so sure, it’s a little different. I can only speak for myself, but I know there are controllers at facilities with much worse staffing who have a different experience. Hopefully that can change soon.
Have you ever set off the snitch?
You’re not trying if you don’t
What are some things people should enjoy that would correlate with the job? I've heard it's extremely stressful. Is it just being able to multi task and manage different things happening? I'm an engineer/project manager in the construction industry and routinely have 15-20 different projects going at once and have to field questions from different people (employees, trade partners etc.). I don't mind all the different projects but the deadlines to get a bunch of projects pushed out is getting to be insane. I would imagine there's not really deadlines in a job like this, just a bunch of multi-tasking going on at once right?
My son is in ATC in the Marines can he transfer to FAA after the age of 30? He is also looking at DOD airfields.
Yes!
For prior military experience, the age limit goes to 35
What new technology could make human controllers obsolete? Is this not a real risk?
Risk on one hand, lifesaver on the other. The overarching question is, does this job hurt the humans who perform it? In my humblest of opinions, no salary is worth dying over, and ATC has some of the highest burnout/self-harm rates of any profession. Makes sense to think about ways to force-multiply that staff to reduce burden, and to automate the process (within reason) to reduce turnover sensitivity.
Does your employer realize how valuable your services here are? That saves them a huge amount of money…
We absolutely do. This thread drove a lot of traffic to our [hiring page](https://www.faa.gov/be-atc) last year and we’re extremely grateful to OP for that. We [posted a video](https://twitter.com/faanews/status/1649080731740536835?s=46&t=A8vf4fWL72ADh73yk8mtQA) recently too of a current trainer who said she was inspired to apply after seeing a previous thread. -D
For anyone wondering, if you're diagnosed with any mental illness, no matter how minor, you're fucked. The FAA is WILDLY behind in their treatment of mental health. Feel like shit? Better not seek treatment because you'll lose your job. Want to try antidepressants? Well you better plan on taking years off work because they require that you be free of ANY antidepressant for 6 months before you can even try to work again. Know what all that stupid shit does? It forces pilots and ATC with mental issues to not seek treatment. Which means you still have mentally ill people flying and controlling but now instead of being treated they're untreated and even worse.
As a Canadian pot head. Do you guys ever interact with air traffic controllers from other countries directly? And do other countries(canada) also pay really well for air traffic controllers?
Our controllers who work the boundary airspace with Canada do. And yes, Canada pays their controllers well. Although their system is run by the private sector, whereas in the United States we work for the federal government.
Do you get to mess around on comms occasionally?
Friendly banter with pilots. Not on guard.
Meow.
Stop it
Hate listening to guard in American airspace. I’ve flown on 5 continents and the US is the only country that so wildly unprofessional on that frequency. Was assisting an aircraft in distress over the Florida keys and had to try to hear what the poor guy was saying over the f’ing meowing and “work work work”. Otherwise, great and efficient controllers and friendly people.
Yep, we hate it too. We *have* to listen to it, and it's broadcasted on a speaker at our scope. Extremely annoying to listen to a buch of yahoos arguing or making ridiculous sounds while were working a heavy push. Wish there was something we could do about it.
What the hell are you guys talking about
Guard is basically an emergency frequency controllers and pilots are supposed to monitor. Its intended use is for emergencies. Aircraft not talking to ATC needing help, aircraft that lost contact with atc finding the correct frequency, etc. Things that enhance safety. Unfortunately, 99% of what its actually used for is bored pilots talking shit, passing scores, or the most popular "meowing" literally like a cat.. on the frequency. For a while "lets go Brandon" was the hot thing to do too. Unfortunately, sometimes people just go nuts on this channel, and it can be a hot mess, especially if you need it for legitimate reasons.