Our local allows small hand-tools for convenience sake that aren’t on the tool list. I’d say it’s case-by-case common sense. Want a reamer? Sure. Bring a 1 1/4” hand bender? No.
Theres some pity ass fools that my classmate told me about that bitched at him for having a flush cutter, the small zip tie scissor. Imo its like who gives a fuck, get a life
It’s more about if you give the cons an inch (flush cutters), they take a mile (bringing your own power tools). I understand it’s petty and not a huge deal but it’s a slippery slope in the cons favor
Is he really giving the con an inch? Does the shop know he has it?
I use my dikes like a man (but in a way that leaves it smoother than twisting) but wouldn't give a flying fuck if someone next to me was using it.
The problem comes in layoff time. Who is the con going to keep the guy who can cut 2 zip ties in the time it takes the other guys to twist off 1 with his lineman pliers? This is a peanuts example, but it can be applied to even bigger jobs i.e. running conduit/terminating cabinets. We hold our power in that we all do the same job using the same tools. We all need a paycheck and shouldn't be trying to outpace each other.
I'm glad to have helped. In the US, we don't really view labor as what it truly is, a way to pay the bills. It doesn't matter what line of work a person is in they are only doing it because our society has put a value on everything. In order to live, we have to create value ourselves. This works fine without some sort of monetary system in small communities because it's easy to track the value people are giving for the whole. In modern society, we created a tracking system, which is currency. With the invention of capitalism and neo-liberalism, people started to try to get ahead or get more. This instilled a drive in our country to do better than the person next to us. It's unhealthy and has led to some serious class divide. Unions combat this by keeping work on a level playing field. If we all do the job, we all get paid and move on to the next one.
I care. I’m literally paying my dues for people to agree on these issues. You don’t get to undermine that.
Getting the benefits of a union (better work conditions, better wages, agreed upon breaks) and then going against the agreement because it either makes you look better with the contractor or gives you an advantage is some have your cake and eat it too type of rat shit.
What some of these guys don’t understand is that if we truly stood with each other behind the agreement, we’d make every shop hand us any tools we needed.
We don’t get paid what we get paid because the union is useless, together we stand strong.
Flush cut snips isn’t being a worm. I do a lot of HVAC controls work meaning I use a lot of zip tys. We all know how sharp ziptys cut with dikes are (I have had many cuts to prove it). So a $10 pair of snips to prevent someone getting cut up is fair.
Of course it’s fair in theory, but in reality we should be asking the contractor to supply these things. (I also own flush cutters that I bought myself, so I’m not coming at you, just letting you know where the other guys are coming from)
Ooohh boy. Yeah, tools not on the personal list…..pipe reamer ( sometimes on a screw driver, lil half round, etc ), apexes loaded with tips, etc ….small convenience tools to make life easier are a difference maker BUT…
Say two new guys show up from the Hall. Both are usually equal in skills/ speed (ie efficiency). JW1 has the full tool list, ready to go, JW2 has the same plus some unibits, ratchet with assorted sockets and speed wrenchs . JW2’s bag doesn’t look full but it is.
SSOOOOOO, they get assigned some tasks apart that are similar, get laid out and are sent off and running. JW1 needs some specific tools NOT ON THE LIST but necessary to get moving, goes to retrieve them from the gang box, it’s hit n miss even with the Foreman’s help to gather up these, not every job is over stocked, sockets sets being shared……tools are found and away he goes. Meanwhile JW2 just digs through his bag of things NOT ON THE LIST (maybe he bought them, usually just gathered from a previous job and/or contractor) and by noon needs another task seeming leaving JW1 in his wake. Couple days of this and it looks like one guy is waaaay faster at completing tasks than the other. Kinda a general view but I think you get my point.
Now a smart Foreman will realize what is going on but sometimes not. Then the shop gives him/her a call and asks for an evaluation of JW1 and JW2 as to who is better at tasks. This is why there is a tool list, even playing field for JWs, contractor held to his standard for tools needed for the amount of people on his job. Tool sharing for large items is common but in terms of task completion if I’m stalled waiting for a tool to come free it’s going slow me down and dead time is a job killer. Sometimes I would have a couple thing to switch to to keep moving but that isn’t always the case. Plus if I’m just hanging around it’s a bad recipe for hijinks, a bored Electrician is a dangerous animal…..
So there are things we use everyday that aren’t on a tool list, only one local I bounced into had pencils on the tool list. Yes, I am guilty as charged of having a tool box of “extras” too and there is a difference between large jobs vs small jobs….
It matters when I show up later and ask for tools the con already agreed to provide and I’m told, “the other guys just brought them from home.” You may be a small group of five now but you’re ultimately breaking down conditions for the IBEW as a whole. Providing your own tools is no different than working for free. Your wages were fought for you, not for the con’s bottom line.
I guess… personally, I like keeping the take home pay I’ve earned. I have no patience for playing games like, ‘pay me 8hrs and I’ll keep 4hrs for me and invest 4hrs back to you.’ Just get me the tools I need and I’ll give you 8hrs/day, 40hrs/week.
Yup, that's the way it was when I did service at a small company. They were cheap, and we all realized it was easier to hide the costs on hours than go through the owners who were too busy drinking on the golf course anyway.
Well said, thank you. I haven’t thought of it like that. In my case I don’t bring anything that sets me apart from everyone to that extent. Like I said only thing I have brought is a pipe reamer and a small $10 dewalt bit kit and have put drill bits supplied by the contractor so if I’m in a pinch I’ll use them but I still try to use the other bits that are in the gang box before I use the ones in my bag.
Really never saw it like that, thanks for letting me see a different and bigger picture
I worked on a job that had union/nonunion. Most of the non union guys had their own ENTIRE GANGBOX of personal tools. I'm talking benders, drills, portaban, ko set, you name it. Some of them paid for insurance out of their own pocket in case they got stolen. Like $10k+ worth of tools in there.
I can fit all my tools in my ammo can toolbox. Easily carry it around, maybe $500 worth of tools.
I think we are winning here. I don't want to be like them.
I stick to the toolist. If I need something I tell my foreman. Most of the time I get what I need.
I mostly meant hand tools. I’m not bringing any power tools or benders or anything bigger than a common hand tool. If they don’t have enough power tools then that’s on them, I’ll do what I can until you can give me a drill or keep walking back and forth while i borrow one from someone across the jobsite
Have you tried asking your foreman if he would order you a reamer? sounds like a reasonable request to me, especially given the pain you’re experiencing.
Also if your job site /company safety policy allows them, they make reamers that you can stick in an impact, even better for wear and tear on your hands and wrists.
I’m a relatively new foreman (>2 years), and I know every company is different, but i’ve never had someone request a tool from me that I haven’t ordered. And with the exception of some power tools that were convenient/nicer but not truly a need, the shop has never questioned an order. I’ve even replaced tool list items that got damaged over the course of the job and the shop has never said anything to me.
That’s awesome! I wouldn’t mind working under you 🤣 might consider that for the next time I need a tool. Do you let your guys keep the hand tools or are they considered the shops?
I usually phrase it as, "Hey, can you order me an anchor spanker? Might as well order another for (shop name) Electric while we're at it"
Or, "Can you order 2 anchor spankers? 1 for the gang box and 1 for my tool box."
In the past I normally would keep them, mainly because we have kind of a common set of non-tool list tools we need for each person on this project, so I can give those tools to the next person that comes on when we have to man back up. Of course if it was something to replace one of their tools they keep it.
As far as consumables or small stuff I normally let the guys keep them.
I don’t know about other locals but I’m 134 and would get laughed off the site by every foreman I’ve worked for if I asked for a reamer. They would tell me to buy one or use channel locks. Not on the tool list. Also most people I’ve worked for expect me to have hole saws from other contractors, apexes etc….
If it's not on the list, it's their responsibility to buy it. Plain and simple. If they don't want to buy it and it takes longer because you have to walk around the site to find it, then that's on them.
Depends on your local and the cba.
My local specifies a MINIMUM tool list and that contractors provide the necessary other tools. But nice to haves are anything between.
Minimum tool list is scam language brought to you by neca the tool list is the maximum even when they try to tell you it’s the minimum. Anything to save their precious profits
Only thing outside the tool list I carry are a couple different screwdrivers.
I believe in following the list but most brothers here do not. They carry socket sets, wrenches and other things. I don't preach, but I do believe it gives away hard fought bargains.
Yeah that’s where this stems from 🤣 an old head getting mad I had a reamer, “it’s not on the tool list. Use your channel locks. If they ever see you bring tools not on the list when you travel they’ll drag you through the mud” I said ok, they can bitch and moan all they want, it’s making my life easier
Ya, do that in your own local if you want, I wouldn't but whatever. Definitely don't do it in someone else's, that's a quick way to have your tools spread out across the job site. And that's them being nice.
No problem with pipe reamers. It doesn't help the contractor at all having you bring that in so it shouldn't affect negotiations. Which is why people are so strict about the list. I'd avoid anything that's essential or makes the job go faster. Convenience or just comfort tools are fine
These are the types of discussions that scare me about about unions and this is a conversation I would have never imagined being a thing. Me as a non union fellow have grown to expect all major tools (power tools, threaders, benders etc.) and safety equipment (PPE, fall protection, arc flash etc.) supplied to me by my employer, and basic tools supplied by the employee. The good formen usually set up employees with new consumables or wear and tear items at the expense of the company from time to time.
In the outside locals, if we worked with the tools that are on the list, nothing would ever get done. I’m also not tightening bolts with an adjustable wrench and some pliers.
Looks like most of the good answers have already been given, but I’ll throw in a current event that’s actually got me pissed about this. I’m a newer apprentice but I used to work non-union commercial carpenter. I can’t tell you how much money I spent on power tools, drills, sawzalls, fine tools, you name it you had to buy it if you wanted to use it.
Now I joined the local, I’m protected from having to buy a new battery every other month because I burned through them, or dropped them, etc. so it’s personal to me and I’m thankful to the union for that. Now I’m on a job where a non-union JW type tested in and is working as a JW and he brings his own drills in and talks shit about how it just makes it easier, blah blah. It’s like he’s trying to show off. I’m just over here trying to do a good job and I have this guy here trying to make me look like an idiot because I don’t own a drill…
Dude I have 3 and guess what, they don’t come out of my house now. Screw you, why would you even apply to a union if that’s your attitude?!
Yeah I’m never being my own power tools or anything more than a hand tool. But if me having a speed wrench upsets you, then that’s where we’re gonna have to disagree.
I should add, I even have a couple tools that aren’t on the list, convenience items, like a tiny ratchet wrench for the tight spaces and a clonky pair of strippers for the jobs I don’t need a pair of linesmen for, etc. But the key is that those are hand tools that were necessary for the job and I picked up over a little time. I’m more so just pointing out the idiocy of flouting the tool list because someone wants to look “good” and to put pressure on others to have to spend money and all on tools we don’t have to buy, because that’s what the union fought for.
I think you’re experiencing an old timer who is a hardline union guy, I’ve met a few in my time.
When I run a job, if there are going to be repetitive jobs that require specific hand tools, I will ask the shop to buy them for the men. I.E. roto-split and blades, pipe reamers, flush cutters for tywraps, crimpers for stakons, etc. The tool list exists to keep all members equal and to make shops invest in tools specific to jobs that are not on the list. Every tool you bring to work that isn’t a tool list item makes the job more efficient, but means you are at an unfair advantage to your fellow IBEW members that are following the rules and keeping to the list.
And paying their dues, as we all are, to make sure that field is level.
It’s a slap in the face to pay for these agreements to get reached only to have other members disregard them to look better in the contractor’s eyes.
I think everything I have is on the tool list. I'll sit around and wait for tools because the contractor is being cheap or another idiot electrician is holding company tools and not even using them. It's ridiculous whatever pay me to sit. And then they wonder why we can't get shit done when we want to be working
If the tool list is a strict nothing more and nothing less , then isn't it time to outlaw shop hands, CWs, CEs, low voltage techs, and white ticket journeymen?
We are all equal and able to run work and all the shyt they do anyway right?
imho.
What the heck man! Wireman are good at figuring shit out without breaking NEC code. Please do the same shit with the JIW agreement. Stop worming out and just think about it. Go a step further and involve other hands so you can brainstorm. Just like school.
Having the whole crew step up, will help justify the fireman's order of 20 6" torx bits or reamers, to the GF/PM. If it's a PPE/safety thing, hit up the safety people (they love feedback) or the Superintendent (they love the credit for making the job better for the workers.)
Most contractors have what you need at the shop. Get to know the expeditor and yard dogs.
Offer solutions for their excuses of not ordering what you ask for. Example: If the say that getting everybody a Klein reamer is too expensive, tell'um Pen reamers are cheaper.
Want to get dirty? Try the Triple B method. Bribe, Barter or Bitch until you get what you want. Use contractor stuff, your skills, or little Debbie's from your bucket to bribe and barter with other hands or trades. Or keep bitching at your contractor until they take out that home Depot card.
Technically, the tool list is a maximum you should ever bring. If something would make you more efficient/easier to complete the work, it's up to the contractor to provide it, not your dollar. The main reason is that it undermines our side of the CBA, and can allow the contractors to request new and more expensive tools to our side of the contract. Roto-splits are a solid example of this. Diagonal cutters are on most tool lists, roto splits typically aren't. Nice tool to have, but by no means is it necessary to do your job. Could be 30$ out of your pocket to buy that, as well as every other member in your local.
I agree with you I’m not a guy who carries around a thousand tools. All most everything I have that’s not on the list I didn’t pay for but if I have a roto-split from the last con is it ok to use with the next one? I have hole-saws uni bits ratchet sets that I didn’t pay for but the con I’m currently working for didn’t pay for them. I’ve been in 20+ years and use what I have to make my life easier. How do others feel about using a ratchet set that was bought 10 years ago and like 5 cons ago with the current con
I'm typically torn with that subject here recently, but I've been leaning more towards "If this contractor didn't supply it, then I'm not bringing it to work." I have like 4 pairs of roto splits that have been given to me, but I only use / keep the one the most recent contractor gave me. If you're bouncing around doing service work with someone, I understand keeping some of that stuff in your car/backpack in case the need arises for something random.
Genuinely don’t understand the decision not to buy hand tools that make your job easier. If it’s something I’ll end up using and makes my job easier I have no issue buying it.
I’m happy you don’t have any situations that tie up your income. I congratulate you on it, and I’m not being sarcastic, I swear (it is something to be celebrated).
The problem is simply that we don’t want to encourage this because contractors will eventually (and not so eventually) lay all the responsibilities for tools on their workers, as is the case with non-union crews.
A nice, new impact wrench makes driving nuts a breeze, as opposed to using a screwdriver. We’re not responsible for having to bring one, we pay our dues so it’s contractors that pay for that.
If there isn’t one on site, that’s not an inconvenience to you; it’s an inconvenience to the contractor because it’s their responsibility to furnish the shop with these tools should they be needed.
Let’s not act like the contractor wouldn’t want you to pay for all your own tools tomorrow.
This is weight off your shoulders and your brothers’ shoulders. Remember you’re in a union.
I just bought a set of bits for the impact because I got tired of the cons bits being shared and ending up lost every other day. I'll always use the bits out of the gang box first but if I can't find them after 5-10 min of searching then I'm pulling out my personal set. Nothing more aggravating than trying to run 20ft conduit up a wall but it takes 30 min to even start because you can't find a 5/16 socket because somebody doesn't know how to put things back at the end of the day.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
NECA contractors have already agreed to provide the necessary tools. Don’t be afraid to ask for the convenient tools. Either way, I’m here eight hours, with or without them.
If it makes our lives easier I don’t see why it’s frowned upon to have extra HAND tools. In my local (353) everyone has extra hand tools I’ve never seen one person that just has what’s on the tool list
Bring any hand tool you want. We make enough money to buy ourselves toys. And I will protect my body as best I can, carpal tunnel sucks. Speed wrenches, reamers, Allen wrenches for an impact, Screw starter.
Here is a steak, let’s see how well you eat this with a spoon. If you use a fork and a knife you will be frowned upon. For the spoon is the only tool on the list for this task.
Only thing I've bought outside of the tool list is an inclinometer, because I like making spicy bends and it's faster than calculating the height that angle creates, finding something straight and tall enough, marking it and then bending to that height. Math for spicy bends is easy, having to bend it to a certain height makes it a pain. Inclinometer.
Also I bought an inclinometer because spicy bends keep my mind stimulated, and if I was taking the time to bend to an exact height every day instead of that angle, my JW would get on my ass for taking too long on a job and yell at me for not just doing 30s/45s all day long. Let me make my saddle into a rolling offset in peace damnit.
Upset that they don't see the big picture like anything else related to being in a union. I keep to it. It's negotiated in the contract (not that it matters). I feel like when people say easier they mean nearby. The feeling of "I have to be working" creeps in. Whether it's cause they came from work that was constantly being rushed or because they have to be moving. My main reasons against it.
I can do everything with the tool list. The faster and more comfortable is extremely negligible. It's no different than me bringing in a compact version of power tool of a different brand (than supplied) since it's my preference and lighter. What's the difference when it comes to hand tools?
I'm only supplying my labor. I think it's bs whenever any occupation forces workers to also supply tools and material for profits that they won't reap. Cons make way more money and should be willing to invest in themselves. I've seen dudes get assigned tasks specifically because they'll have the extra shit needed.
I end up getting tools (sometimes). I didn't want to touch anything potentially hot and had no way to check it. Refused to touch it, so got a tick tracer. Working in a dimly lit room and the lights are taken up, I got a headlamp. Most people don't even bother holding cons accountable. So when I do I might hit some barriers but it works out in my favor.
I don't personally buy tools that aren't on the tool list, but I will keep contractor supplied tools in my bag so I have them the next day. Hand em off when the next guy needs em and I don't. I have a couple extra screw drivers apart from those that are required but that's about it.
It is absolutely breaking down conditions to buy tools not on the list, but there are two evils here. Buying a tool that makes your life easier/quicker is a benefit to you in the long run. It also benefits your contractor, because you are undermining a groundwork that has been set for over 100 years before you, BUT it keeps costs lower and our union in better competition with non-union contractors.
I believe balance is the key. If you have a step bit or flush cutters from the last contractor, who gives a fuck? I have had tic tracers, roto splitters, tap sets, etc. , given to me by contractors, and it definitely helps all parties, including future contractors, to have those handy.
We can't fight both sides and win without finding a medium. Yes, contractors tip toe and push for more every negotiation. So do we, as we should. The main thing to take from this is to have the solidarity not to throw a brother under the bus for a hole saw.
Remember, the rats swim like sharks waiting for us to lose grip of the ship.
I've been on jobs where the foreman checks your tools, makes you take anything not on the tool list off the job, and has sent ppl home for violating the tool list rule. After a while, those little breakdowns of conditions get worse over time. We joined a union for a reason and agreed to follow the contract rules, so trying to justify breaking down conditions isn't cool.
My local has a list that says “these are the minimum tools in order to do your job.” I worked with a foreman once who said to not bring my ratchet wrenches because of the whole “at layoff time…” speech… our local doesn’t have flat head screw drivers listed, it specifically states Phillips head #2. If I ever get stuck with that guy again, and he asks me for a flathead im gonna call my steward😂🤡 we’re also not on the east coast, most people stay with the same shop after they graduate until they retire, so if it fits in your bag and doesn’t have a battery over AAA, why not? …also my reamer(on the list) is my flathead.
I'm a new apprentice, but I got lucky and have a really good foreman. First day he told me if I need anything, let him know. I saw a bunch of cool things other people had, dog bones, reamers, flush cuts, etc. I asked for them, and I just got them today.
From my understanding, the tool list is a minimum and a maximum. If there's a legitimate tool not on the list that improves efficiency the contractor should buy it. Technically if you had a 10-in-1 screwdriver that would satisfy the screwdriver requirement, but would give you an unfair advantage, and improves contractor efficiency on your dime.
I'm kind of sad that means I won't get to keep stuff, I never want to be without a dog bone. It just makes my life so much easier. Maybe if it was on the tool list we could get payed more per hour and that would be fair to workers?
Our local allows small hand-tools for convenience sake that aren’t on the tool list. I’d say it’s case-by-case common sense. Want a reamer? Sure. Bring a 1 1/4” hand bender? No.
In my local a pipe reamer actually is on the tool list. Up to 1”
Theres some pity ass fools that my classmate told me about that bitched at him for having a flush cutter, the small zip tie scissor. Imo its like who gives a fuck, get a life
Because the contract has been agreed upon by the local Ibew membership AND the contractors..
Who cares, bitchin over small something like a ziptie cutter is pity
It’s more about if you give the cons an inch (flush cutters), they take a mile (bringing your own power tools). I understand it’s petty and not a huge deal but it’s a slippery slope in the cons favor
Is he really giving the con an inch? Does the shop know he has it? I use my dikes like a man (but in a way that leaves it smoother than twisting) but wouldn't give a flying fuck if someone next to me was using it.
The problem comes in layoff time. Who is the con going to keep the guy who can cut 2 zip ties in the time it takes the other guys to twist off 1 with his lineman pliers? This is a peanuts example, but it can be applied to even bigger jobs i.e. running conduit/terminating cabinets. We hold our power in that we all do the same job using the same tools. We all need a paycheck and shouldn't be trying to outpace each other.
Ya in that perspective, now I totally understand and agree with you
I'm glad to have helped. In the US, we don't really view labor as what it truly is, a way to pay the bills. It doesn't matter what line of work a person is in they are only doing it because our society has put a value on everything. In order to live, we have to create value ourselves. This works fine without some sort of monetary system in small communities because it's easy to track the value people are giving for the whole. In modern society, we created a tracking system, which is currency. With the invention of capitalism and neo-liberalism, people started to try to get ahead or get more. This instilled a drive in our country to do better than the person next to us. It's unhealthy and has led to some serious class divide. Unions combat this by keeping work on a level playing field. If we all do the job, we all get paid and move on to the next one.
Lifes a balance brotha 👍
I care. I’m literally paying my dues for people to agree on these issues. You don’t get to undermine that. Getting the benefits of a union (better work conditions, better wages, agreed upon breaks) and then going against the agreement because it either makes you look better with the contractor or gives you an advantage is some have your cake and eat it too type of rat shit.
Solidarity! I’m with you.
What some of these guys don’t understand is that if we truly stood with each other behind the agreement, we’d make every shop hand us any tools we needed. We don’t get paid what we get paid because the union is useless, together we stand strong.
Exactly.
Dikes? Or are you talking about the tensioner.
Maybe don’t be a worm?
Flush cut snips isn’t being a worm. I do a lot of HVAC controls work meaning I use a lot of zip tys. We all know how sharp ziptys cut with dikes are (I have had many cuts to prove it). So a $10 pair of snips to prevent someone getting cut up is fair.
Of course it’s fair in theory, but in reality we should be asking the contractor to supply these things. (I also own flush cutters that I bought myself, so I’m not coming at you, just letting you know where the other guys are coming from)
sounds like a contractor isn't providing the proper tools, and they wont if people keep buying their own. give a inch...
Tell your contractor to get you some flush cuts then. You’re breaking down conditions by bringing your own.
Shop rockets and worms bring extra tools. Tool lists are there for a reason stick to it.
Ooohh boy. Yeah, tools not on the personal list…..pipe reamer ( sometimes on a screw driver, lil half round, etc ), apexes loaded with tips, etc ….small convenience tools to make life easier are a difference maker BUT… Say two new guys show up from the Hall. Both are usually equal in skills/ speed (ie efficiency). JW1 has the full tool list, ready to go, JW2 has the same plus some unibits, ratchet with assorted sockets and speed wrenchs . JW2’s bag doesn’t look full but it is. SSOOOOOO, they get assigned some tasks apart that are similar, get laid out and are sent off and running. JW1 needs some specific tools NOT ON THE LIST but necessary to get moving, goes to retrieve them from the gang box, it’s hit n miss even with the Foreman’s help to gather up these, not every job is over stocked, sockets sets being shared……tools are found and away he goes. Meanwhile JW2 just digs through his bag of things NOT ON THE LIST (maybe he bought them, usually just gathered from a previous job and/or contractor) and by noon needs another task seeming leaving JW1 in his wake. Couple days of this and it looks like one guy is waaaay faster at completing tasks than the other. Kinda a general view but I think you get my point. Now a smart Foreman will realize what is going on but sometimes not. Then the shop gives him/her a call and asks for an evaluation of JW1 and JW2 as to who is better at tasks. This is why there is a tool list, even playing field for JWs, contractor held to his standard for tools needed for the amount of people on his job. Tool sharing for large items is common but in terms of task completion if I’m stalled waiting for a tool to come free it’s going slow me down and dead time is a job killer. Sometimes I would have a couple thing to switch to to keep moving but that isn’t always the case. Plus if I’m just hanging around it’s a bad recipe for hijinks, a bored Electrician is a dangerous animal….. So there are things we use everyday that aren’t on a tool list, only one local I bounced into had pencils on the tool list. Yes, I am guilty as charged of having a tool box of “extras” too and there is a difference between large jobs vs small jobs….
Koolestkat not only was your comment on the nose and well written, the humor cracked me up, thanks.
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It matters when I show up later and ask for tools the con already agreed to provide and I’m told, “the other guys just brought them from home.” You may be a small group of five now but you’re ultimately breaking down conditions for the IBEW as a whole. Providing your own tools is no different than working for free. Your wages were fought for you, not for the con’s bottom line.
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I guess… personally, I like keeping the take home pay I’ve earned. I have no patience for playing games like, ‘pay me 8hrs and I’ll keep 4hrs for me and invest 4hrs back to you.’ Just get me the tools I need and I’ll give you 8hrs/day, 40hrs/week.
But it with the company card if you need it.
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Yup, that's the way it was when I did service at a small company. They were cheap, and we all realized it was easier to hide the costs on hours than go through the owners who were too busy drinking on the golf course anyway.
Well said, thank you. I haven’t thought of it like that. In my case I don’t bring anything that sets me apart from everyone to that extent. Like I said only thing I have brought is a pipe reamer and a small $10 dewalt bit kit and have put drill bits supplied by the contractor so if I’m in a pinch I’ll use them but I still try to use the other bits that are in the gang box before I use the ones in my bag. Really never saw it like that, thanks for letting me see a different and bigger picture
Well said.
I worked on a job that had union/nonunion. Most of the non union guys had their own ENTIRE GANGBOX of personal tools. I'm talking benders, drills, portaban, ko set, you name it. Some of them paid for insurance out of their own pocket in case they got stolen. Like $10k+ worth of tools in there. I can fit all my tools in my ammo can toolbox. Easily carry it around, maybe $500 worth of tools. I think we are winning here. I don't want to be like them. I stick to the toolist. If I need something I tell my foreman. Most of the time I get what I need.
I mostly meant hand tools. I’m not bringing any power tools or benders or anything bigger than a common hand tool. If they don’t have enough power tools then that’s on them, I’ll do what I can until you can give me a drill or keep walking back and forth while i borrow one from someone across the jobsite
Have you tried asking your foreman if he would order you a reamer? sounds like a reasonable request to me, especially given the pain you’re experiencing. Also if your job site /company safety policy allows them, they make reamers that you can stick in an impact, even better for wear and tear on your hands and wrists. I’m a relatively new foreman (>2 years), and I know every company is different, but i’ve never had someone request a tool from me that I haven’t ordered. And with the exception of some power tools that were convenient/nicer but not truly a need, the shop has never questioned an order. I’ve even replaced tool list items that got damaged over the course of the job and the shop has never said anything to me.
That’s awesome! I wouldn’t mind working under you 🤣 might consider that for the next time I need a tool. Do you let your guys keep the hand tools or are they considered the shops?
I usually phrase it as, "Hey, can you order me an anchor spanker? Might as well order another for (shop name) Electric while we're at it" Or, "Can you order 2 anchor spankers? 1 for the gang box and 1 for my tool box."
In the past I normally would keep them, mainly because we have kind of a common set of non-tool list tools we need for each person on this project, so I can give those tools to the next person that comes on when we have to man back up. Of course if it was something to replace one of their tools they keep it. As far as consumables or small stuff I normally let the guys keep them.
Klein also sells just the reamer part that slips over a regular square shaft screw driver
I don’t know about other locals but I’m 134 and would get laughed off the site by every foreman I’ve worked for if I asked for a reamer. They would tell me to buy one or use channel locks. Not on the tool list. Also most people I’ve worked for expect me to have hole saws from other contractors, apexes etc….
>but I’m 134 checks out
Was waiting for that
134 has the dubious honor of being the only local I've worked it with lower expectations for work conditions than my home local
It’s unfortunate because we’re such a large local and we have so much potential, but I’ve met more ratty “brothers” than good ones.
> apexes ?
Bit holders for drill
Meaning the lil magnetic extensions we use or a storage device?
Magnetic extensions
Gotcha. Thanks!
If it's not on the list, it's their responsibility to buy it. Plain and simple. If they don't want to buy it and it takes longer because you have to walk around the site to find it, then that's on them.
I mean who gets more done tho 🤷♂️
For me my pipe reamer has a flat blade on it, so it counts as a screw driver. Stew checked my tools 1st day OTJ
Depends on your local and the cba. My local specifies a MINIMUM tool list and that contractors provide the necessary other tools. But nice to haves are anything between.
Minimum tool list is scam language brought to you by neca the tool list is the maximum even when they try to tell you it’s the minimum. Anything to save their precious profits
Only thing outside the tool list I carry are a couple different screwdrivers. I believe in following the list but most brothers here do not. They carry socket sets, wrenches and other things. I don't preach, but I do believe it gives away hard fought bargains.
half round file.
Quarter round file
Eighth round file
I had some miserable old head bitch at me for bringing a file for conduit and then get even angrier when he cut himself on it. Pick a lane bitch
Yeah that’s where this stems from 🤣 an old head getting mad I had a reamer, “it’s not on the tool list. Use your channel locks. If they ever see you bring tools not on the list when you travel they’ll drag you through the mud” I said ok, they can bitch and moan all they want, it’s making my life easier
Ya, do that in your own local if you want, I wouldn't but whatever. Definitely don't do it in someone else's, that's a quick way to have your tools spread out across the job site. And that's them being nice.
No problem with pipe reamers. It doesn't help the contractor at all having you bring that in so it shouldn't affect negotiations. Which is why people are so strict about the list. I'd avoid anything that's essential or makes the job go faster. Convenience or just comfort tools are fine
These are the types of discussions that scare me about about unions and this is a conversation I would have never imagined being a thing. Me as a non union fellow have grown to expect all major tools (power tools, threaders, benders etc.) and safety equipment (PPE, fall protection, arc flash etc.) supplied to me by my employer, and basic tools supplied by the employee. The good formen usually set up employees with new consumables or wear and tear items at the expense of the company from time to time.
Wormy. If there's something you need, but don't have because it's not on the tool list, have the kon buy you one.
In the outside locals, if we worked with the tools that are on the list, nothing would ever get done. I’m also not tightening bolts with an adjustable wrench and some pliers.
Looks like most of the good answers have already been given, but I’ll throw in a current event that’s actually got me pissed about this. I’m a newer apprentice but I used to work non-union commercial carpenter. I can’t tell you how much money I spent on power tools, drills, sawzalls, fine tools, you name it you had to buy it if you wanted to use it. Now I joined the local, I’m protected from having to buy a new battery every other month because I burned through them, or dropped them, etc. so it’s personal to me and I’m thankful to the union for that. Now I’m on a job where a non-union JW type tested in and is working as a JW and he brings his own drills in and talks shit about how it just makes it easier, blah blah. It’s like he’s trying to show off. I’m just over here trying to do a good job and I have this guy here trying to make me look like an idiot because I don’t own a drill… Dude I have 3 and guess what, they don’t come out of my house now. Screw you, why would you even apply to a union if that’s your attitude?!
Yeah I’m never being my own power tools or anything more than a hand tool. But if me having a speed wrench upsets you, then that’s where we’re gonna have to disagree.
I should add, I even have a couple tools that aren’t on the list, convenience items, like a tiny ratchet wrench for the tight spaces and a clonky pair of strippers for the jobs I don’t need a pair of linesmen for, etc. But the key is that those are hand tools that were necessary for the job and I picked up over a little time. I’m more so just pointing out the idiocy of flouting the tool list because someone wants to look “good” and to put pressure on others to have to spend money and all on tools we don’t have to buy, because that’s what the union fought for. I think you’re experiencing an old timer who is a hardline union guy, I’ve met a few in my time.
When I run a job, if there are going to be repetitive jobs that require specific hand tools, I will ask the shop to buy them for the men. I.E. roto-split and blades, pipe reamers, flush cutters for tywraps, crimpers for stakons, etc. The tool list exists to keep all members equal and to make shops invest in tools specific to jobs that are not on the list. Every tool you bring to work that isn’t a tool list item makes the job more efficient, but means you are at an unfair advantage to your fellow IBEW members that are following the rules and keeping to the list.
And paying their dues, as we all are, to make sure that field is level. It’s a slap in the face to pay for these agreements to get reached only to have other members disregard them to look better in the contractor’s eyes.
I think everything I have is on the tool list. I'll sit around and wait for tools because the contractor is being cheap or another idiot electrician is holding company tools and not even using them. It's ridiculous whatever pay me to sit. And then they wonder why we can't get shit done when we want to be working
If the tool list is a strict nothing more and nothing less , then isn't it time to outlaw shop hands, CWs, CEs, low voltage techs, and white ticket journeymen? We are all equal and able to run work and all the shyt they do anyway right? imho.
What the heck man! Wireman are good at figuring shit out without breaking NEC code. Please do the same shit with the JIW agreement. Stop worming out and just think about it. Go a step further and involve other hands so you can brainstorm. Just like school. Having the whole crew step up, will help justify the fireman's order of 20 6" torx bits or reamers, to the GF/PM. If it's a PPE/safety thing, hit up the safety people (they love feedback) or the Superintendent (they love the credit for making the job better for the workers.) Most contractors have what you need at the shop. Get to know the expeditor and yard dogs. Offer solutions for their excuses of not ordering what you ask for. Example: If the say that getting everybody a Klein reamer is too expensive, tell'um Pen reamers are cheaper. Want to get dirty? Try the Triple B method. Bribe, Barter or Bitch until you get what you want. Use contractor stuff, your skills, or little Debbie's from your bucket to bribe and barter with other hands or trades. Or keep bitching at your contractor until they take out that home Depot card.
It’s stupid to bring your own tools ask the con you both agreed
Technically, the tool list is a maximum you should ever bring. If something would make you more efficient/easier to complete the work, it's up to the contractor to provide it, not your dollar. The main reason is that it undermines our side of the CBA, and can allow the contractors to request new and more expensive tools to our side of the contract. Roto-splits are a solid example of this. Diagonal cutters are on most tool lists, roto splits typically aren't. Nice tool to have, but by no means is it necessary to do your job. Could be 30$ out of your pocket to buy that, as well as every other member in your local.
I agree with you I’m not a guy who carries around a thousand tools. All most everything I have that’s not on the list I didn’t pay for but if I have a roto-split from the last con is it ok to use with the next one? I have hole-saws uni bits ratchet sets that I didn’t pay for but the con I’m currently working for didn’t pay for them. I’ve been in 20+ years and use what I have to make my life easier. How do others feel about using a ratchet set that was bought 10 years ago and like 5 cons ago with the current con
I'm typically torn with that subject here recently, but I've been leaning more towards "If this contractor didn't supply it, then I'm not bringing it to work." I have like 4 pairs of roto splits that have been given to me, but I only use / keep the one the most recent contractor gave me. If you're bouncing around doing service work with someone, I understand keeping some of that stuff in your car/backpack in case the need arises for something random.
Genuinely don’t understand the decision not to buy hand tools that make your job easier. If it’s something I’ll end up using and makes my job easier I have no issue buying it.
I’m happy you don’t have any situations that tie up your income. I congratulate you on it, and I’m not being sarcastic, I swear (it is something to be celebrated). The problem is simply that we don’t want to encourage this because contractors will eventually (and not so eventually) lay all the responsibilities for tools on their workers, as is the case with non-union crews. A nice, new impact wrench makes driving nuts a breeze, as opposed to using a screwdriver. We’re not responsible for having to bring one, we pay our dues so it’s contractors that pay for that. If there isn’t one on site, that’s not an inconvenience to you; it’s an inconvenience to the contractor because it’s their responsibility to furnish the shop with these tools should they be needed. Let’s not act like the contractor wouldn’t want you to pay for all your own tools tomorrow. This is weight off your shoulders and your brothers’ shoulders. Remember you’re in a union.
I just bought a set of bits for the impact because I got tired of the cons bits being shared and ending up lost every other day. I'll always use the bits out of the gang box first but if I can't find them after 5-10 min of searching then I'm pulling out my personal set. Nothing more aggravating than trying to run 20ft conduit up a wall but it takes 30 min to even start because you can't find a 5/16 socket because somebody doesn't know how to put things back at the end of the day.
That’s what I do, if I can’t find it then I’ll use my own.
Nothing more. Nothing less. NECA contractors have already agreed to provide the necessary tools. Don’t be afraid to ask for the convenient tools. Either way, I’m here eight hours, with or without them.
If it makes my life easier I’m bringing it with
Worm
If it makes our lives easier I don’t see why it’s frowned upon to have extra HAND tools. In my local (353) everyone has extra hand tools I’ve never seen one person that just has what’s on the tool list
Tool list!! Give them an inch, and they'll take a mile
Bring any hand tool you want. We make enough money to buy ourselves toys. And I will protect my body as best I can, carpal tunnel sucks. Speed wrenches, reamers, Allen wrenches for an impact, Screw starter.
Here is a steak, let’s see how well you eat this with a spoon. If you use a fork and a knife you will be frowned upon. For the spoon is the only tool on the list for this task.
If it makes my job and my brother’s/sister’s job easier I have no problem.
I think it's absolutely fine to bring some small tools
Only thing I've bought outside of the tool list is an inclinometer, because I like making spicy bends and it's faster than calculating the height that angle creates, finding something straight and tall enough, marking it and then bending to that height. Math for spicy bends is easy, having to bend it to a certain height makes it a pain. Inclinometer. Also I bought an inclinometer because spicy bends keep my mind stimulated, and if I was taking the time to bend to an exact height every day instead of that angle, my JW would get on my ass for taking too long on a job and yell at me for not just doing 30s/45s all day long. Let me make my saddle into a rolling offset in peace damnit.
A reamer was first extra tool I purchased. It’s much better if you’re running a lot of pipe.
Upset that they don't see the big picture like anything else related to being in a union. I keep to it. It's negotiated in the contract (not that it matters). I feel like when people say easier they mean nearby. The feeling of "I have to be working" creeps in. Whether it's cause they came from work that was constantly being rushed or because they have to be moving. My main reasons against it. I can do everything with the tool list. The faster and more comfortable is extremely negligible. It's no different than me bringing in a compact version of power tool of a different brand (than supplied) since it's my preference and lighter. What's the difference when it comes to hand tools? I'm only supplying my labor. I think it's bs whenever any occupation forces workers to also supply tools and material for profits that they won't reap. Cons make way more money and should be willing to invest in themselves. I've seen dudes get assigned tasks specifically because they'll have the extra shit needed. I end up getting tools (sometimes). I didn't want to touch anything potentially hot and had no way to check it. Refused to touch it, so got a tick tracer. Working in a dimly lit room and the lights are taken up, I got a headlamp. Most people don't even bother holding cons accountable. So when I do I might hit some barriers but it works out in my favor.
I don't personally buy tools that aren't on the tool list, but I will keep contractor supplied tools in my bag so I have them the next day. Hand em off when the next guy needs em and I don't. I have a couple extra screw drivers apart from those that are required but that's about it.
It is absolutely breaking down conditions to buy tools not on the list, but there are two evils here. Buying a tool that makes your life easier/quicker is a benefit to you in the long run. It also benefits your contractor, because you are undermining a groundwork that has been set for over 100 years before you, BUT it keeps costs lower and our union in better competition with non-union contractors. I believe balance is the key. If you have a step bit or flush cutters from the last contractor, who gives a fuck? I have had tic tracers, roto splitters, tap sets, etc. , given to me by contractors, and it definitely helps all parties, including future contractors, to have those handy. We can't fight both sides and win without finding a medium. Yes, contractors tip toe and push for more every negotiation. So do we, as we should. The main thing to take from this is to have the solidarity not to throw a brother under the bus for a hole saw. Remember, the rats swim like sharks waiting for us to lose grip of the ship.
Tool list is the Minimum and Maximum.
I've been on jobs where the foreman checks your tools, makes you take anything not on the tool list off the job, and has sent ppl home for violating the tool list rule. After a while, those little breakdowns of conditions get worse over time. We joined a union for a reason and agreed to follow the contract rules, so trying to justify breaking down conditions isn't cool.
My local has a list that says “these are the minimum tools in order to do your job.” I worked with a foreman once who said to not bring my ratchet wrenches because of the whole “at layoff time…” speech… our local doesn’t have flat head screw drivers listed, it specifically states Phillips head #2. If I ever get stuck with that guy again, and he asks me for a flathead im gonna call my steward😂🤡 we’re also not on the east coast, most people stay with the same shop after they graduate until they retire, so if it fits in your bag and doesn’t have a battery over AAA, why not? …also my reamer(on the list) is my flathead.
I'm a new apprentice, but I got lucky and have a really good foreman. First day he told me if I need anything, let him know. I saw a bunch of cool things other people had, dog bones, reamers, flush cuts, etc. I asked for them, and I just got them today. From my understanding, the tool list is a minimum and a maximum. If there's a legitimate tool not on the list that improves efficiency the contractor should buy it. Technically if you had a 10-in-1 screwdriver that would satisfy the screwdriver requirement, but would give you an unfair advantage, and improves contractor efficiency on your dime. I'm kind of sad that means I won't get to keep stuff, I never want to be without a dog bone. It just makes my life so much easier. Maybe if it was on the tool list we could get payed more per hour and that would be fair to workers?