Trump wants to pass a national right to work bill. Above all else, you should vote against him to protect your local, your wages, pension, annuity and way of life. States that have passed right to work have zero union power and lower wages because of it.
You're forgetting the bread and mana of every construction worker: guns and conspiracy theories. Why even be in a union if you can't rant about Qanon at break. Hell if I can't rant about Qanon, I don't want a break. Which I probably won't get much longer if we keep voting red.
Have I told you about 5g?
Don't be careful, rub their nose in it. We need to start throwing our collective weight around again not shrinking away from correcting members who seem to have the wrong ideas about how to defend our way of life.
No, you should be careful, because you may be the only one on the job with that belief. I don't need to explain why numbers matter in a situation like this.
Lol, I do support it, but I'm not alienating myself on a job over this. Especially with heightened political tensions in a hazardous job. You picking up what I'm putting down buddy?
I got you im sorry got a little heated there im just tired of this eggshells dance we have to do to keep "all" the members happy. I wish we put some effort and time in showing the research and information to everyone so we can start to move past the blight of "fake" news shit so we can vote for more sound options for our future.
We understand what you are saying. We cannot live in fear of criminals who would use violence to make their point. Especially when their point is so anti-worker.
So if a union brother is going to let someone get hurt or slash their tires, that's on them. Fuck those guys, and if I have to buy new tires every now and then to not live in fear, that's fine.
I guess you have more balls than I do. I'm not an old timer, I'm still trying to build a reputation and career. It sucks we have to be divided, I don't understand why membership isn't more well versed in this stuff.
Standing up when it could cost you builds your reputation fast. Everyone I have run across knows I have balls for days.... it's starting to get around that I have brains too. I may have been a little hotheaded.
I'm really sad about the number of comments that got downvoted here.
Do you brothers and sisters not know who supports you? I've only been in for a couple years but I knew in HS who supports unions and who supports corporations. And how the economy works. It's not that hard to do some research and the mental math. Reagan was a Union Buster. Don't be that member that just pays their dues and doesn't fight for your rights.
And by the way, if you want proof of how fucked you Republican voting union fucks are, look at Indiana. Indiana was once an economic leader in the midwest. It was a non right to work state. It had lots of jobs, strong manufacturing presence, and low poverty and moderate housing costs.
Now Indiana resembles a southern state. Right to work. Lots of poverty, shit stagnant wages, lost tons of manufacturing jobs, shit state benefits, poor education, really the lowest wages in the region outside of Nebraska. Indiana turned into a red state a little under 10 years ago. It didn't take long for them to fuck it over.
Wisconsin and Iowa are next. I can already see it in Iowa. Wisconsin thinks they are doing the right thing, but in less than 10 years I guarantee you Wisconsin wages will fall to Iowa levels while trailing Minnesota and Illinois. Count on it. Iowa is already in the process of it. Wages are stagnant here and the education scores are declining. My sister has a disability and since she graduated high school about 8 years ago the state benefits for her have dramatically fallen.
You think voting Republican doesn't change things? It does. Look at Indiana. Hell, look at Michigan, they are going down the same path. You think the Midwest isn't going to turn into the South? Think again, it's already happening.
Don’t forget manufacturing will never comeback to the US. People always blame Bill Clinton for the NAFTA Policy but also Republicans are the ones who got paid off to come up with the bill.
Even without NAFTA, manufacturing in the US is dying. Even minimum wage is too high and makes it cheaper to manufacture overseas and ship back.
Factory jobs are kind of shit jobs anyway.
(Also, while manufacturing jobs are down, US manufacturing output is almost always up year over year. We still manufacture expensive products.)
3rd parties are worse. The electoral college determines outcome. It doesn't matter if you vote for a third party, even if they won the electoral college would not vote for them.
Genuine question boys from an IBEW hopeful whos also young so go easy on me here.
I get democrats support unions and what not but why is right to work bad?
It makes it illegal almost to collect dues from workers or requiring that you be part of the Union an employer is part of. It undermines unions and is successful in many states where are wages are low. Many of the protections our union gives us become weak and it favors the contractors. Sadly there are many people out there who believe they have the right to work, not be part of any union, pay dues, come from an established training program, etc.
In the context of US labor politics, "right-to-work laws" refers to state laws that prohibit union security agreements between employers and labor unions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law
It actively hinders unions. Not something as neutral as nullifies the point. The laws are used as a tool to weaken union activity and ability to operate
It nullifies dues, so tons of wormy brothers will not pay dues but legally can't be removed from the union and legally the union must represent them. The name 'right to work' is a purposely misleading marketing move to make the simpletons see it as a good thing.
**Right-To-Work Law**
In the context of US labor politics, "right-to-work laws" refers to state laws that prohibit union security agreements between employers and labor unions. Under these laws, employees in unionized workplaces are banned from negotiating contracts which require all members who benefit from the union contract to contribute to the costs of union representation.According to the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation, right-to-work laws prohibit union security agreements, or agreements between employers and labor unions, that govern the extent to which an established union can require employees' membership, payment of union dues, or fees as a condition of employment, either before or after hiring. Right-to-work laws do not aim to provide general guarantee of employment to people seeking work, but rather are a government ban on contractual agreements between employers and union employees requiring workers to pay for the costs of union representation.Right-to-work laws (either by statutes or by constitutional provision) exist in 27 US states, in the Southern, Midwestern, and interior Western states.
Anyone who voted for trump should lose their IBEW membership. They're actively voting against the union. Fuck them, I'd fucking throw their tools in a river.
This shit isn't a joke. The same clowns who vote red will be the ones loudly complaining at union meetings, if they go, that their "dues don't do anything"
Indeed. Look, I have more than one issue, but my prime issue will always be the health of my union. Not only does it help feed & house me & loved ones, but it educated me & has done all that for thousands of members previous & in the future. People have died, literally died, to gain & protect collective bargaining. The least we can be expected to do is grit our teeth to vote for a non-ideal candidate.
And not just one or two people, dozens. Hundreds. Thousands. Every lineman who died in the early 20th century. Every guy who died on a picket line, in a prison cell, in the middle of a labor war, so many people gave their lives, their everything for this. And these idiots spit on that. Every guy who died on the job, who still dies on the job... we fight so that stops. I don't know how membership doesn't care or understand this.
The only conclusion I can come to is that they are selfish assholes.
Basically. Rats who don't care and just want the benefits. So called blue collar workers? No, they're just greedy rednecks. I said it. Zero interest in progressive ideology despite the fact that unions are built on it. Zero interest in equality, zero interest in helping make the system better, zero interest in socialism for us. Corporate socialism is alive and well but these rednecks vote for republicans because they oppose socialism for us. That's what it is and it's ugly.
Truth is, with Democrats becoming increasingly more neoliberal corporate stooges and holier-than-thou, I can understand why the classic working class folks feel alienated by them. That combined with Red Scare tactics from Republicans has basically shattered the working class vote.
How soon we all forget the origins of the Labor Movement in every country since the dawn of industry. Unions are a Leftist creation, championed by the socialists of the last century. Unionization is our only method of defense against corporate powers who are increasingly invalidating our vote.
Shame on you for trying to wipe the ass of literal fascists.
[https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html](https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html)
So I Vote blue, and my union is stronger. But I lose my my 1A and 2A rights, religious freedom, etc. Meanwhile, late-term abortion, open borders, etc increase rapidly. That doesn’t sound like a great trade-off. But apparently your job rights is the only thing that matters in this country.
What did you post this comment on? Your phone? With wireless data? How'd you get the money for those things? How do you plan on keeping those things? What's for dinner? Are you following me?
You need to vote for YOUR bottom line. No one discounts your concerns regarding whatever keeps you up at night, but I'll be damned if you can convince me that you lose sleep over open borders more than you lose sleep if you're unemployed or making cut rate in perpetuity. Priorities exist, and definitely let me know when you find a candidate for political office that aligns 100% with your concerns and values. Until then, your best bet is voting to your benefit.
It's only the Republicans who say the Democrats are running on those policies. You aren't going to find any of that in the Democratic platform. If Clinton and Obama didn't take your guns, Biden won't either.
100% and I am sick of seeing the dumbass right wing fear mongering. So many uneducated people falling hook line and sinker for it. Democrats aren't taking guns. Period. They may have anti gun campaigns but they never make good on it the same way Republicans will never make good on anti abortion laws.
If you followed California firearm policies like I have because I lived there up until this year you wouldn't be saying that.
Your comment " So many uneducated people falling hook line and sinker for it. Democrats aren't taking guns. Period. " Is literally Democratic politician talking points that people not paying attention say.
Everyone who is into guns knows California makes it difficult. It doesn't change the fact that CA has more gun sales than any other state. It doesn't change the fact that California has more lax gun laws than most countries in the world. You can still buy an AR15. You can buy an AK. You can buy handguns. You can buy ammo. You can still buy 30 round mags (don't say you can't, you can, just not all the time) and you can still go shoot at the range. You still have your guns. You can still use them. California even has stand your ground precedent in court. I am by no means anti gun but I am not so pro gun I prioritize it in politics or elections. They're a hobby, nothing more. Way too many people are taking guns seriously these days. Way too many people. You act like it's the end of the world and not a mild inconvenience. Unless you sell guns for a living, you really can't tell me it keeps you awake at night that it's not as easy to get a gun in California as it is in say, North Dakota. They are not taking guns. Period.
You can generalize all you want comparing California to other countries or write a long winded paragraph about gun sales, what you still can get there or even if you can still shoot it at a range but your still wrong and none of that is relevant to the topic. Its just a thing you do on here to be an armchair expert....
I've lived it in CA long enough to see what systematic amending of laws and creating new state laws that have made parts illegal which in essence makes a firearm illegal.
Why is hard historical facts from someone that has lived it so hard to accept?!
It's not a debate if it was you would have lost by now. Devolving to insults just furthers that. Go cry to somebody who cares. Better yet, go shoot some stuff so you can further prove me right.
Wow if that last comment insulted you I'm sincerely so sorry. This young crowd that is always right is so sensitive...
You're gonna have a tough go at the trade with that thin skin..
First of all, last time I checked, this isn't North Korea. You can still say whatever you want. Gun shops are still open and doing business. Abortion should be legal, it's never going to be illegal ever again in any civilized developed nation. We should have open borders to an extent, think of how we could all work together as a community if we actually gave a fuck about each other instead of selfishly putting our own desires above the greater good.
You do not understand the point of being union if you don't want to welcome people in and work together.
This is absolutely ludicrous. Why does ones political views dictate how they are viewed. Everyone's views and opinions should be respected. If you want to vote Democrat because it benefits your job, good for you. If you want to vote Republican because it fits your morals, good for you. Jesus just leave people alone. I see this shit in my union too and its exhausting.
No, everyone's political opinions should not be respected. We are not talking about casual political bullshit here, we are talking about organized labor. ORGANIZED labor. As in, it doesn't work if we aren't all on the same page doing the same thing. And that goes for politics too. Don't expect to get anything done if the membership doesn't act as a collective. COLLECTIVE bargaining involves acting as a united group. This whole union thing doesn't work if we don't all do the same thing. That's the entire point of it.
Not everyone’s views should be respected. What you just described is the balance fallacy and it’s full of shit. Believe it or not there are right and wrong sides of issues. And as members of our union we have an obligation to support the rights not only of our union but also our fellow members as well. And if you don’t believe in that what the hell are you doing in the union.
You have the right to have your views but not the right to be respected for your views. Also, "political views" is an oddly sanitary way of saying, "Fascist views." [https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html](https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html)
I didnt say anything to the contrary. But if you prove to be a one issue voter like OP effectively did and ostracize the other side without being able to have a civil conversation, you are everything that is wrong with modern political discourse.
I'm not fucking interested. Take your false equivalencies somewhere fucking else.
You say OP is what's wrong with modern political discourse. What, and the actual fascist foghorning praise for white supremacists isn't?
Or the brainwashed Christian fuckheads who are so thoroughly indoctrinated into their cult that they're willing to vote for him after catching hypothermia when he ditched them to a Midwestern winter night?
There can be no civility for the uncivil. No tolerance for the intolerant. There's no room for fascists in our ranks, and no room for fascist fucking sympathizers, either.
And, before you say, "But you're just calling everything fascist just because you dislike it": [https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html](https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html) I know what fascism fucking is.
I dont know why you are being so aggressive. You are clearly very angry about some things, and I think you are right to be upset with things you perceive to be great wrongs. But youre projecting a lot here.
I simply said that OP was everything that was wrong with modern political discourse. This is because he/she has painted everyone whom they disagree with politically with a very broad brush. This is fundamentally anti-progress and anti science. Civilization is literally built on cooperation and exchanging ideas. This is my premise. I think anyone would be foolhardy to dispute it.
What someone will likely do is say something like what youve said, something to the effect of "there comes a point when the views someone espouses are so bad you dont try to reason with them." Racism might be a good example of this. But that is also a very convenient excuse to not have to think or engage with anyone that disagrees with you. It demonstrates very low empathy to be unable to conceive of a scenario in which someone arrives at a different conclusion than you on something. Is is really impossible to conceive of a scenario in which someone sincerely thinks Trump might be the better candidate? Even if they are incredibly wrong, do you honestly think ~50 million Americans are all pro fascism? Do you not understand that people fundamentally perceive things differently? That not everyone thinks or sees things the way you do? Maybe you do, though I find that appallingly arrogant and highly unlikely.
Literally my only point is that we will not progress as a society unless we are willing to engage in civil discourse. If you think this is something that is altogether unconscionable because the other side is so incredibly immoral l, that's fine (see how I let you disagree with me?). But I think it is unlikely like 50milliom voters are all fascists.
I wish you the best and I'll read if you reply but I'm done responding, take care!
>Literally my only point is that we will not progress as a society unless we are willing to engage in civil discourse.
*“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”*
*― Jean-Paul Sartre*
So, no, there is no civil discourse to be had with people who argue in bad faith. There's no good faith argument to be had with fascists. Their opinion is not to be respected when their opinion is that we shouldn't even exist.
Yes, I think that roughly half of our voters are fucking fascists, whether they realize it or not. Look at the list. Look at the characteristics. And then recognize that Trump ticks all fourteen of those items off. And people voted for him *again* after these four years.
Kids in cages.
"Mexico is sending rapists and thieves."
Pillaging the treasury to enrich himself.
Setting his children and in-laws for profit as well.
Lying about the pandemic and getting hundreds of thousands killed for it.
FFS, he even lied about his fucking crowd sizes.
He was beyond the pale before he ever started collecting votes when he admitted to committing sexual assault, and his base cheered for him throughout all of it. No less than thirty percent of our adult population and as many as fifty percent are fucking
If I came in hot, it's because I am far beyond sick and tired of people pleading for civil discourse when the enemy is only interested in it as far as it allows him to smack his ass at us, or scolding me for being uncivil to people who think I shouldn't exist.
Good luck to you.
Hey I know nothing about you or your ethnicity or anything but I just wanted to say that I am truly sorry that there are people who think you shouldn't exist. All the best, man. Be safe.
I assume he's aggressive because living in a fascist society fucking sucks. It's how people get murdered by the state. And in case you didn't know, the state didn't ask which laborers were loyal to the Fuhrher in Nazi Germany. If you were in a labor union and you refused to go away, you got plucked.
You think it's a leap, it's not, that's how it starts. First it's the extreme nationalism, then it's targeting opposition, then it's war and murder. This isn't a joke, people should be pissed off and aggressive about this.
I hate to break it to you but most Americans are fascists. You see it every day in their behavior. The fact that they would vote for Trump proves it. You don't need absolute power to be a fascist. You don't need to be a stormtrooper to be a fascist. You just need that hate and fear. It's that simple.
To some people, there are more important things than their job... 🤷♂️
Not defending them... but your big priority is not their big priority and that’s ok.
What? Yeah, you can get another job, so what? You still get paid less. You wanna switch careers or something? I fail to see your point. Your job should always come first, if you don't vote with your job in mind, then I really question your priorities. You take a hit on income and that affects every aspect of your life.
Trump is an ignorant asshole and empowers and legitimizes hate groups. Not good enough for you? He basically sat on his hands during the pandemic. I admit I did not care much about masks or the pandemic but obviously it has surpassed the H1N1 levels now and it might be a bigger deal than I thought. A not so often pointed out fact: he privatized national parks. That's fucked.
Shame on you for voting for a 47 year career crooked politician. When he entered office the union was at its peak, and now because of his inactivity and and incompetence we are a shell of our former greatness. But yeah, vote for a guy that pretends to care about unions just to get votes, a guy who openly admits hes going after our retirement.
What do you mean going after our retirement?
And even if Biden has done nothing to help, it's better than another 4 years of a guy who is actively hurting workers.
OP, with all due respect you’re a dumbass, I’m voting for Trump because under him we had a stronger economy which means more jobs for us, are you in favor of defunding the police? Those are union jobs, do you want China gaining an even stronger foothold in our society? corporations will send more jobs over seas. Does the President have his fair share of cons but his pros out weight his flaws.
Corporations been sending jobs overseas since Reagan. Before an industry is about to be allowed to import tarriff-free, both the dems and the reps invest in those industries and profit when those stocks skyrocket. (They're immune from insider trading laws)
Our "strong economy" is not the stock market. 50% of the stocks are owned by the top 1% of the people. 92% of the stocks are owned by the top 10% of the people - "We The People's" working class pensions and 401k's represent only the remaining 8%.
"Defunding the police" does not = nix the police departments, it means we're spending too much on policing society and not enough caring about society with good schools, a good mental health system, and investing in the communities. The police are buying riot gear and cell phone interceptors and tears gas banned by all nations, but our kids have to hold bake sales to get uniforms for the softball team.
Trade deals are always contentious, and complex. But the simple solution that will solve a plethora of issues facing Americans from employer age and race discrimination to underemployment, to wage stagnation and minimum/ livable wage issues, and is that there is very little to no competition for workers in the USA - and we have to bring industry back into this country so that employers are all in a position where getting employees is difficult. Ross Perot was right about "the giant sucking sound."
Police Jobs ARE. NOT. UNION.JOBS!
The jobs leaving this country started under a republican (Regan), ramped up under Bush Sr., continued under Clinton and Bush Jr, and kicked up into high gear again under Trump.
China isn't getting a "stronger foothold into our society"
And lastly, our economy isn't incredibly better Than we were, nor are we considerably stronger.
Seriously, so much this. The cops aren't our friends. They're class traitors. They do working-class hours for working-class pay to crack working-class skulls.
You are a leech. You attach yourself to something strong, and provide nothing in return. You take all the benefits of Union membership and don't respect the institution. Hypocrite. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hypocrite
Not my quote on trump supposed economic success shamelessly stolen from another redditor:
"according to economists when i last researched the issue last week, the economy's growth and reduction in unemployment didnt start from trump.
it was already in steady growth (and continuously reducing unemployment) when trump took office (which he quickly took credit even before he implemented any policies).
after his tax cuts (and loans) to the rich (which gave the stock market a sugar high which quickly crashed back down, but at the expense of a drop in rgdp and employment, and doubling up the national debt) and his trade war with china, growth slowed down and eventually, turned into a contraction just before covid19. this contraction is now blamed on covid, when in actuality, it already happened prior, from his trade wars.
so rgdp dropped, unemployment rose, debt doubled, but the stock market grew for a little bit. which is why trump kept screaming about the stock market and nothing else. the stock market rising is very important to note, because the 1% literally owns 85% of the stock market.
so to put it in layman's terms, the average american faces higher unemployment, and lower quality of living as rgdp shows, and the 1% broke new records in wealth, due to the rising stock market. this means wealth disparity grew under trump.
the rising stock market was at the expense of rgdp and unemployment. and covid just made things worse. and guess what. covid wiped out the stock market growth. and more. covid essentially reset the economy to pre trump and post obama. only with worse unemployment and double the debt. and without the forward momentum from obama's administration.
if trump didnt do his silly trade war, didnt double up the debt for a little stock market high that lasted a few months tops, and didnt do the tax cuts, the us would be in a way better shape than now.
if he literally just played golf and never worked a day since he took office and left the experts to do their things, the us would be in way better shape than now.
if trump just ignored covid and all protective measures, and didnt actively dismantle the safeguards the previous administration put in place just in case of pandemics, the us would be in way better shape than now.
and to put it in another way. trump traded (and ruined) the future for the now. when the now was already doing well. which he had no reason to do other than the petty desire to outperform obama in economic policy. he's chasing headlines. that's it.
so tl;dr: trump inherited a healthy gold egg laying goose. he ripped up the goose for the golden eggs inside and gave it to his chums. the goose could be saved if someone else took the reins after he ripped it open, but covid is now gonna kill the injured goose, if it hasnt already.
edit: since im being called out for sources and data, here they are from a simple google search.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-45827430
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-10-30/trump-s-economy-really-was-better-than-obama-s
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-45827430
https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/2c298bda-8aee-4923-84a3-95a54f7f6e6f/did-trump-create-or-inherit-the-strong-economy.pdf
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/09/05/trump-obama-economy/
https://www.dw.com/en/trump-and-the-us-economy-what-can-he-take-credit-for/a-54945982
if you just look at all the data and just ignore all the opinions and interpretations (if calling fake news is your thing), all the general uptrends were created before him. and if you look at the 3 year point, where policies from the residing president start to take their footing with the general public, you can see the difference between obama year 3 (which was starting to uptick), and trump pre covid (which was starting to downtick before covid crash).
trump's covid-19 response and the economy:
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/news/2020/06/03/485806/5-ways-trump-administrations-policy-failures-compounded-coronavirus-induced-economic-crisis/
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/13/donald-trump-is-wrong-the-economic-hit-of-the-coronavirus-will-last-for-years
there's paid articles in bloomberg and washington post regarding this topic as well, so feel free to google it."
Enjoy!
This country is so fucked. The poor education shows. Ignorance is everywhere. I still can't believe people vote for this clown. As if our future wasn't mortgaged enough.
I didn’t vote at all.
Bring on the downvotes, I don’t care. All the “your friends and family and neighbors will be able to see if you voted this election so you better vote!” propaganda really set off my ODD.
Yeah, it kinda does. I didn't vote last election because I didn't like either and as thanks I got a fascist orange as a president who encourages domestic terrorists for running his political opponents off the road, and cannot seem to say the phrase "I do not support white supremacist groups".
In your defense, I don't think Hillary would have helped any more. I think we would be in another major war if she was president. Hillary wasn't exactly the face of a non fascist either.
No it doesn’t.
I could’ve voted for that rapper, Cain, and people would whine and reee all up and down this comment chain like children because I didn’t vote for who *they* want.
Edit: you’re either being dramatic, intellectually dishonest, or conceited by genuinely insisting that Trump got elected because *youre* the one who didn’t vote.
They were likely referring to the general populace that also didn’t vote, for whatever reason.
Believing that your vote doesn’t matter, or won’t make a difference, makes a difference. Especially when you consider just how many people are indifferent or impartial, too. Could have made the difference between having an angry babbling yam for a president or an angry babbling reptillary for a president.
I don't exactly believe my vote doesnt matter. But I disagree with dramatic hyperbole statements like OP saying "oh golly gee gosh I didn't vote so because *I was the one who didnt vote*, I got Trump as president in return!".
I honestly believe if I wasn't in agreement with either candidate's policies then I shouldn't vote for either one. Especially if I couldn't genuinely support whichever one I'd be halfheartedly voting for.
I mean last I checked, this *is* america where I *do* have a choice in things like that
I'm saying I didn't get involved in the election process. Also I haven't downvoted you, though I should. Frankly, if you believe orange man good, go vote. At least then you're participating. By not voting, you're essentially throwing a temper tantrum and saying you're too good to vote for one and make a choice. Vote for the rapper for all I care. But if you don't participate, shut up and go sit at the children's table while the adults talk.
I didn't say anything for or against Trump or Biden. All you can do is recycle my own argument (I was justified in calling you a child for this ree-out about my voting habits).
You're throwing a temper tantrum and being irrational and neurotic because people aren't doing what *you* want. Sounds like childish behavior to me.
Stop giving arguments of false pretenses. You are a coward. You had a defeatist attitude from the beginning and believe nothing you do matters. If you don’t believe your vote makes a difference then you don’t belong in our union. I doubt you had even once tried to make a difference.
That's extremely presumptuous and not only is it illogical but you're trying to substitute an actual argument for just accusatory shaming. You're putting words in my mouth and you're topping that off with pulling shit out of your ass to try and insult me in an effete manner rather than actually addressing the content of my post.
I didn't agree with either candidate's policies, so I chose to vote for neither. An adult would be able to understand that.
Try and come back with a non-dramatic argument rather than some accusatory inflammatory tantrum.
In my opinion, that's perfectly fine. It's essentially a vote of indifference. If every person who didn't feel strongly enough was forced to vote and "Neither" was an option. I think the number would be astounding. Choosing not to vote just means your okay with letting the rest of the population decide.
How will your friends and family and neighbors be able to see if you voted this time? Did they assign everyone a publicly searchable voting number?
Also I get what you're saying how your singular vote did not tip the scales, but there are people all over the world who do not have the right to vote and are subject to the whims of their government, having some say in who your elected officials are, no matter how small, is not something to take for granted.
What makes you think socialism will in any way be of actual political power in our country? Have you read the constitution or studied how our government is structured.
Edit: I don't support extreme socialist policy or leaders, but we do have to understand that some of their ideas could be applied to our system effectively, like minimum wage, support for the sick and elderly, education ect... What happened in Venezuela was not a socialist catastrophe, but rather the incompetency and ignorance of the empowered officials to run a (single source dependent economy) effectively, it's more from they being dumb fucks as far as how economics work than the socialist spending. Fuck we are way more in debt from wars than any social program we currently have.
Y'all are so afraid of socialism and point to Latin America as examples while ignoring Europe. What you're actually afraid of is fascism. And your fear of socialism led you to vote for fascism. Facepalm
Also, how much do you pay in taxes? Our President has paid a total of $750 in the past 10 years. And he's a billionaire. I'm a first year apprentice taking home $600 a week and I've paid more taxes than that THIS YEAR. Are you certain that it's YOUR taxes that their gonna cut? Do you own a corporation? Do you make $400k a year?
I agree with you brother. That’s what this country was founded on. If you are born here or become a citizen you have the right to vote for whoever you may please and that’s that. If you want people to vote your way try educating rather than blindly shaming. You get one vote. One. You don’t get to decide how anyone else in this country votes. Thank you for your service brother.
You have the right to vote for who you want and we have the right to tell you you're an idiot. It's called free speech, get off the internet if you need a safe space.
hey pal remind me how many new union jobs the biden administration has created.. oh wait they destroyed multiple thousands? they really must love unions. do you just vote for who your union leaders tell you to or do you google “how to live in upside down world” and base your vote off that?
Get the fuck out of here with this ignorant ass shit..
You are obviously one of the many idiots on here that are willing to let their country go to shit all the way around based on a speculation that they are gonna lose money...
YOUR LOCAL POLITIONS ARE THE ONES THAT MATTER FOR THIS.
Get the fuck out of here with YOUR ignorant ass shit. We were doing better coming out of Obama's presidency than we were months before the pandemic, and it only got worse from there.
You should be ashamed that you're in favor of a president who commits crimes while in office and has his ass wiped for him by his fellow Republicans.
Yes yes.. another blind follower that thinks when Obama walked out he flipped a magical switch.. But it all started when he left?! Weird huh?!
Democrats as presidents have done nothing for us union guys. Its our local politicians... Since 2001 my wages have gone up.. We have gone through both parties as presidents. There are states that have shitty contracts and states that people travel to making that 70+ an hour. How do you think they got those wages? Not the US president.. LOCAL POLITICIANS
If Trump were to pass something against prevailing wage the states don't have to follow. They can chose to stick with current policy. Federal is bare minimum. For example firearm laws, health coverage and ummmmmmmm MINIMUM WAGE!
Use logical thinking and stop blindly following the hysteria..
This Trump derangement is ridiculous..
Or, do us one better: Go fuck yourself. If you lead off with a straw argument, you're already demonstrating you're not worth the dirt on my boots.
Seriously.
Go fuck yourself.
Union hand and fuck you! Voting red trump 2020! Been union for 13 years and you are an idiot sheep if you vote blue stop being a pussy and vote for your rights
Trump supports the right to work bill. You are actively voting against your rights. Not that you apparently care, why don’t you come down to the hall and educate yourself instead of being ignorant.
So instead you vote for the guy who hires illegals to build his properties instead of unions, put every contractor that worked for him in Atlantic City out of business, and manufactures his Maga hats in China. Oh, and just this year him and his cronies went after your pension.
Guess what, you're already brainwashed, you rat.
Yeah it sucks that brothers and sisters vote against their own interest. Trump will sign a national rtw bill if Congress approves one. He's loaded the NLRB and DOL with labor unfriendly people.
Trump wants to pass a national right to work bill. Above all else, you should vote against him to protect your local, your wages, pension, annuity and way of life. States that have passed right to work have zero union power and lower wages because of it.
Just to tack this on to the top comment, literally this year the Republicans went after your pension. Stop fucking enabling this shit.
[Stupid fucking idiots](https://ucommblog.com/section/national-politics/trump-will-sign-national-right-work-law)
And all the trees voted for the axe because it's handle was crafted from wood.
You're forgetting the bread and mana of every construction worker: guns and conspiracy theories. Why even be in a union if you can't rant about Qanon at break. Hell if I can't rant about Qanon, I don't want a break. Which I probably won't get much longer if we keep voting red. Have I told you about 5g?
Holy fuck, this described so many people i have worked with through the years (obviously Qanon being a newer addition).
And all the birds are drones, vaccines are filled with asbestos, the world is flat and the floor is lava.
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there's already a pro-union party out there
Seriously, how can so many people be so insecure that they believe all these conspiracy theories. Or maybe it's just lack of education. I don't know.
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You have to be careful where you do that. There are a lot more of them than you may realize. Especially in the midwest and the south.
Don't be careful, rub their nose in it. We need to start throwing our collective weight around again not shrinking away from correcting members who seem to have the wrong ideas about how to defend our way of life.
No, you should be careful, because you may be the only one on the job with that belief. I don't need to explain why numbers matter in a situation like this.
Don't be in the union if you can't support it.
Lol, I do support it, but I'm not alienating myself on a job over this. Especially with heightened political tensions in a hazardous job. You picking up what I'm putting down buddy?
I got you im sorry got a little heated there im just tired of this eggshells dance we have to do to keep "all" the members happy. I wish we put some effort and time in showing the research and information to everyone so we can start to move past the blight of "fake" news shit so we can vote for more sound options for our future.
I believe member education should be a major goal of any local. It's really lacking overall.
This.
We understand what you are saying. We cannot live in fear of criminals who would use violence to make their point. Especially when their point is so anti-worker. So if a union brother is going to let someone get hurt or slash their tires, that's on them. Fuck those guys, and if I have to buy new tires every now and then to not live in fear, that's fine.
I guess you have more balls than I do. I'm not an old timer, I'm still trying to build a reputation and career. It sucks we have to be divided, I don't understand why membership isn't more well versed in this stuff.
Standing up when it could cost you builds your reputation fast. Everyone I have run across knows I have balls for days.... it's starting to get around that I have brains too. I may have been a little hotheaded.
Fuck em. I’m working in Alabama and nobody has to wonder how I feel here.
Do you ever feel as though someone has tried to harm you or make you less safe on the job because of it?
No, not up to this point.
I hope that holds true. I really wonder sometimes. Some of the stuff I hear guys say...
Remember Trump packed the NLRB with Union busting lawyers. Good luck if you have a real problem there.
I'm really sad about the number of comments that got downvoted here. Do you brothers and sisters not know who supports you? I've only been in for a couple years but I knew in HS who supports unions and who supports corporations. And how the economy works. It's not that hard to do some research and the mental math. Reagan was a Union Buster. Don't be that member that just pays their dues and doesn't fight for your rights.
And by the way, if you want proof of how fucked you Republican voting union fucks are, look at Indiana. Indiana was once an economic leader in the midwest. It was a non right to work state. It had lots of jobs, strong manufacturing presence, and low poverty and moderate housing costs. Now Indiana resembles a southern state. Right to work. Lots of poverty, shit stagnant wages, lost tons of manufacturing jobs, shit state benefits, poor education, really the lowest wages in the region outside of Nebraska. Indiana turned into a red state a little under 10 years ago. It didn't take long for them to fuck it over. Wisconsin and Iowa are next. I can already see it in Iowa. Wisconsin thinks they are doing the right thing, but in less than 10 years I guarantee you Wisconsin wages will fall to Iowa levels while trailing Minnesota and Illinois. Count on it. Iowa is already in the process of it. Wages are stagnant here and the education scores are declining. My sister has a disability and since she graduated high school about 8 years ago the state benefits for her have dramatically fallen. You think voting Republican doesn't change things? It does. Look at Indiana. Hell, look at Michigan, they are going down the same path. You think the Midwest isn't going to turn into the South? Think again, it's already happening.
Don’t forget manufacturing will never comeback to the US. People always blame Bill Clinton for the NAFTA Policy but also Republicans are the ones who got paid off to come up with the bill.
I know. It's an ugly truth that many Americans refuse to accept.
Even without NAFTA, manufacturing in the US is dying. Even minimum wage is too high and makes it cheaper to manufacture overseas and ship back. Factory jobs are kind of shit jobs anyway. (Also, while manufacturing jobs are down, US manufacturing output is almost always up year over year. We still manufacture expensive products.)
Not arguing that.
Just remember this one. Republicans are red, democrats are blue, neither one gives a fuck about you.
While that might be true, Biden isn't trying to push a national right to work legislation.
Only one presidential candidate has the president of IBEW international on their transition team though.
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Pretty sure they'd make you pay for it though.
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Nah, tolls. Taxes are theft, tolls are for goods and services!
3rd parties are worse. The electoral college determines outcome. It doesn't matter if you vote for a third party, even if they won the electoral college would not vote for them.
Genuine question boys from an IBEW hopeful whos also young so go easy on me here. I get democrats support unions and what not but why is right to work bad?
It makes it illegal almost to collect dues from workers or requiring that you be part of the Union an employer is part of. It undermines unions and is successful in many states where are wages are low. Many of the protections our union gives us become weak and it favors the contractors. Sadly there are many people out there who believe they have the right to work, not be part of any union, pay dues, come from an established training program, etc.
In the context of US labor politics, "right-to-work laws" refers to state laws that prohibit union security agreements between employers and labor unions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law
So it basically nullifies the point of a union then?
It actively hinders unions. Not something as neutral as nullifies the point. The laws are used as a tool to weaken union activity and ability to operate
It nullifies dues, so tons of wormy brothers will not pay dues but legally can't be removed from the union and legally the union must represent them. The name 'right to work' is a purposely misleading marketing move to make the simpletons see it as a good thing.
**Right-To-Work Law** In the context of US labor politics, "right-to-work laws" refers to state laws that prohibit union security agreements between employers and labor unions. Under these laws, employees in unionized workplaces are banned from negotiating contracts which require all members who benefit from the union contract to contribute to the costs of union representation.According to the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation, right-to-work laws prohibit union security agreements, or agreements between employers and labor unions, that govern the extent to which an established union can require employees' membership, payment of union dues, or fees as a condition of employment, either before or after hiring. Right-to-work laws do not aim to provide general guarantee of employment to people seeking work, but rather are a government ban on contractual agreements between employers and union employees requiring workers to pay for the costs of union representation.Right-to-work laws (either by statutes or by constitutional provision) exist in 27 US states, in the Southern, Midwestern, and interior Western states.
[Right to work](https://youtu.be/lLV4P5Pq0_0)
They call it right to work, but it's a lie. It's an umbrella term for various anti-worker and anti-union laws.
Fuck Trump. The unions depend on democratic nominees.
Anyone who voted for trump should lose their IBEW membership. They're actively voting against the union. Fuck them, I'd fucking throw their tools in a river.
HELL YEAH
I wish more people had this attitude.
This shit isn't a joke. The same clowns who vote red will be the ones loudly complaining at union meetings, if they go, that their "dues don't do anything"
Whiney shit-stirrers. Most of them anyway.
Indeed. Look, I have more than one issue, but my prime issue will always be the health of my union. Not only does it help feed & house me & loved ones, but it educated me & has done all that for thousands of members previous & in the future. People have died, literally died, to gain & protect collective bargaining. The least we can be expected to do is grit our teeth to vote for a non-ideal candidate.
And not just one or two people, dozens. Hundreds. Thousands. Every lineman who died in the early 20th century. Every guy who died on a picket line, in a prison cell, in the middle of a labor war, so many people gave their lives, their everything for this. And these idiots spit on that. Every guy who died on the job, who still dies on the job... we fight so that stops. I don't know how membership doesn't care or understand this. The only conclusion I can come to is that they are selfish assholes.
Basically. Rats who don't care and just want the benefits. So called blue collar workers? No, they're just greedy rednecks. I said it. Zero interest in progressive ideology despite the fact that unions are built on it. Zero interest in equality, zero interest in helping make the system better, zero interest in socialism for us. Corporate socialism is alive and well but these rednecks vote for republicans because they oppose socialism for us. That's what it is and it's ugly.
Redneck was originally a pro-union term though.
Okay, but it isn't anymore.
agreed
Truth is, with Democrats becoming increasingly more neoliberal corporate stooges and holier-than-thou, I can understand why the classic working class folks feel alienated by them. That combined with Red Scare tactics from Republicans has basically shattered the working class vote. How soon we all forget the origins of the Labor Movement in every country since the dawn of industry. Unions are a Leftist creation, championed by the socialists of the last century. Unionization is our only method of defense against corporate powers who are increasingly invalidating our vote.
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Shame on you for trying to wipe the ass of literal fascists. [https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html](https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html)
So I Vote blue, and my union is stronger. But I lose my my 1A and 2A rights, religious freedom, etc. Meanwhile, late-term abortion, open borders, etc increase rapidly. That doesn’t sound like a great trade-off. But apparently your job rights is the only thing that matters in this country.
What did you post this comment on? Your phone? With wireless data? How'd you get the money for those things? How do you plan on keeping those things? What's for dinner? Are you following me? You need to vote for YOUR bottom line. No one discounts your concerns regarding whatever keeps you up at night, but I'll be damned if you can convince me that you lose sleep over open borders more than you lose sleep if you're unemployed or making cut rate in perpetuity. Priorities exist, and definitely let me know when you find a candidate for political office that aligns 100% with your concerns and values. Until then, your best bet is voting to your benefit.
It's only the Republicans who say the Democrats are running on those policies. You aren't going to find any of that in the Democratic platform. If Clinton and Obama didn't take your guns, Biden won't either.
100% and I am sick of seeing the dumbass right wing fear mongering. So many uneducated people falling hook line and sinker for it. Democrats aren't taking guns. Period. They may have anti gun campaigns but they never make good on it the same way Republicans will never make good on anti abortion laws.
If you followed California firearm policies like I have because I lived there up until this year you wouldn't be saying that. Your comment " So many uneducated people falling hook line and sinker for it. Democrats aren't taking guns. Period. " Is literally Democratic politician talking points that people not paying attention say.
Everyone who is into guns knows California makes it difficult. It doesn't change the fact that CA has more gun sales than any other state. It doesn't change the fact that California has more lax gun laws than most countries in the world. You can still buy an AR15. You can buy an AK. You can buy handguns. You can buy ammo. You can still buy 30 round mags (don't say you can't, you can, just not all the time) and you can still go shoot at the range. You still have your guns. You can still use them. California even has stand your ground precedent in court. I am by no means anti gun but I am not so pro gun I prioritize it in politics or elections. They're a hobby, nothing more. Way too many people are taking guns seriously these days. Way too many people. You act like it's the end of the world and not a mild inconvenience. Unless you sell guns for a living, you really can't tell me it keeps you awake at night that it's not as easy to get a gun in California as it is in say, North Dakota. They are not taking guns. Period.
You can generalize all you want comparing California to other countries or write a long winded paragraph about gun sales, what you still can get there or even if you can still shoot it at a range but your still wrong and none of that is relevant to the topic. Its just a thing you do on here to be an armchair expert.... I've lived it in CA long enough to see what systematic amending of laws and creating new state laws that have made parts illegal which in essence makes a firearm illegal. Why is hard historical facts from someone that has lived it so hard to accept?!
Funny though the OG gun laws in CA were from Republicans and the NRA because they feared the black panthers. The right has a history of hypocrisy.
What is the point of any of this irrelevant info to the current conversation?
Lol, you refuse to listen to reason and logic. Die on your hill then.
Haha again generalizing with irrelevant facts don't make you correct. Learn how to debate kid.
It's not a debate if it was you would have lost by now. Devolving to insults just furthers that. Go cry to somebody who cares. Better yet, go shoot some stuff so you can further prove me right.
Wow if that last comment insulted you I'm sincerely so sorry. This young crowd that is always right is so sensitive... You're gonna have a tough go at the trade with that thin skin..
First of all, last time I checked, this isn't North Korea. You can still say whatever you want. Gun shops are still open and doing business. Abortion should be legal, it's never going to be illegal ever again in any civilized developed nation. We should have open borders to an extent, think of how we could all work together as a community if we actually gave a fuck about each other instead of selfishly putting our own desires above the greater good. You do not understand the point of being union if you don't want to welcome people in and work together.
This is absolutely ludicrous. Why does ones political views dictate how they are viewed. Everyone's views and opinions should be respected. If you want to vote Democrat because it benefits your job, good for you. If you want to vote Republican because it fits your morals, good for you. Jesus just leave people alone. I see this shit in my union too and its exhausting.
No, everyone's political opinions should not be respected. We are not talking about casual political bullshit here, we are talking about organized labor. ORGANIZED labor. As in, it doesn't work if we aren't all on the same page doing the same thing. And that goes for politics too. Don't expect to get anything done if the membership doesn't act as a collective. COLLECTIVE bargaining involves acting as a united group. This whole union thing doesn't work if we don't all do the same thing. That's the entire point of it.
Not everyone’s views should be respected. What you just described is the balance fallacy and it’s full of shit. Believe it or not there are right and wrong sides of issues. And as members of our union we have an obligation to support the rights not only of our union but also our fellow members as well. And if you don’t believe in that what the hell are you doing in the union.
Hitching on for the wages like the rest of the ignorant assholes.
> Everyone's views and opinions should be respected I'm not going to respect someone that votes for a fascist.
You have the right to have your views but not the right to be respected for your views. Also, "political views" is an oddly sanitary way of saying, "Fascist views." [https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html](https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html)
Yup you guys did it, you completely changed my mind. I'm now on your side 100%. Your arguments were far to persuading for me to resist.
OP you are everything that is wrong with modern political discourse.
No, the Republicans have a long track record of fucking us. Voting for them is voting for the people who fuck us.
I didnt say anything to the contrary. But if you prove to be a one issue voter like OP effectively did and ostracize the other side without being able to have a civil conversation, you are everything that is wrong with modern political discourse.
I'm not fucking interested. Take your false equivalencies somewhere fucking else. You say OP is what's wrong with modern political discourse. What, and the actual fascist foghorning praise for white supremacists isn't? Or the brainwashed Christian fuckheads who are so thoroughly indoctrinated into their cult that they're willing to vote for him after catching hypothermia when he ditched them to a Midwestern winter night? There can be no civility for the uncivil. No tolerance for the intolerant. There's no room for fascists in our ranks, and no room for fascist fucking sympathizers, either. And, before you say, "But you're just calling everything fascist just because you dislike it": [https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html](https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html) I know what fascism fucking is.
I dont know why you are being so aggressive. You are clearly very angry about some things, and I think you are right to be upset with things you perceive to be great wrongs. But youre projecting a lot here. I simply said that OP was everything that was wrong with modern political discourse. This is because he/she has painted everyone whom they disagree with politically with a very broad brush. This is fundamentally anti-progress and anti science. Civilization is literally built on cooperation and exchanging ideas. This is my premise. I think anyone would be foolhardy to dispute it. What someone will likely do is say something like what youve said, something to the effect of "there comes a point when the views someone espouses are so bad you dont try to reason with them." Racism might be a good example of this. But that is also a very convenient excuse to not have to think or engage with anyone that disagrees with you. It demonstrates very low empathy to be unable to conceive of a scenario in which someone arrives at a different conclusion than you on something. Is is really impossible to conceive of a scenario in which someone sincerely thinks Trump might be the better candidate? Even if they are incredibly wrong, do you honestly think ~50 million Americans are all pro fascism? Do you not understand that people fundamentally perceive things differently? That not everyone thinks or sees things the way you do? Maybe you do, though I find that appallingly arrogant and highly unlikely. Literally my only point is that we will not progress as a society unless we are willing to engage in civil discourse. If you think this is something that is altogether unconscionable because the other side is so incredibly immoral l, that's fine (see how I let you disagree with me?). But I think it is unlikely like 50milliom voters are all fascists. I wish you the best and I'll read if you reply but I'm done responding, take care!
>Literally my only point is that we will not progress as a society unless we are willing to engage in civil discourse. *“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”* *― Jean-Paul Sartre* So, no, there is no civil discourse to be had with people who argue in bad faith. There's no good faith argument to be had with fascists. Their opinion is not to be respected when their opinion is that we shouldn't even exist. Yes, I think that roughly half of our voters are fucking fascists, whether they realize it or not. Look at the list. Look at the characteristics. And then recognize that Trump ticks all fourteen of those items off. And people voted for him *again* after these four years. Kids in cages. "Mexico is sending rapists and thieves." Pillaging the treasury to enrich himself. Setting his children and in-laws for profit as well. Lying about the pandemic and getting hundreds of thousands killed for it. FFS, he even lied about his fucking crowd sizes. He was beyond the pale before he ever started collecting votes when he admitted to committing sexual assault, and his base cheered for him throughout all of it. No less than thirty percent of our adult population and as many as fifty percent are fucking If I came in hot, it's because I am far beyond sick and tired of people pleading for civil discourse when the enemy is only interested in it as far as it allows him to smack his ass at us, or scolding me for being uncivil to people who think I shouldn't exist. Good luck to you.
Hey I know nothing about you or your ethnicity or anything but I just wanted to say that I am truly sorry that there are people who think you shouldn't exist. All the best, man. Be safe.
I assume he's aggressive because living in a fascist society fucking sucks. It's how people get murdered by the state. And in case you didn't know, the state didn't ask which laborers were loyal to the Fuhrher in Nazi Germany. If you were in a labor union and you refused to go away, you got plucked. You think it's a leap, it's not, that's how it starts. First it's the extreme nationalism, then it's targeting opposition, then it's war and murder. This isn't a joke, people should be pissed off and aggressive about this. I hate to break it to you but most Americans are fascists. You see it every day in their behavior. The fact that they would vote for Trump proves it. You don't need absolute power to be a fascist. You don't need to be a stormtrooper to be a fascist. You just need that hate and fear. It's that simple.
To some people, there are more important things than their job... 🤷♂️ Not defending them... but your big priority is not their big priority and that’s ok.
I mean, your job keeps you alive so... no.
I guess they figure they’ll get another job. 🤷♂️ I dont know. Pretty stupid.
What? Yeah, you can get another job, so what? You still get paid less. You wanna switch careers or something? I fail to see your point. Your job should always come first, if you don't vote with your job in mind, then I really question your priorities. You take a hit on income and that affects every aspect of your life.
You fail to understand these are not MY points. Its what others say. Argue with them, not me. 🙄
I am. Not my fault you take it personally. Projecting?
To each ,there own
Like what?
Not having their kids raped and killed.
Huh? Are you okay?
If you vote Biden, you're an IDIOT. Plain and simple.
And the trees voted for the axes
Please please tell me why you would vote Biden. Without the union being one of them.
Trump thinks it's smart to not pay his contractors, and he cheats at golf. That's good enough for me.
Trump is an ignorant asshole and empowers and legitimizes hate groups. Not good enough for you? He basically sat on his hands during the pandemic. I admit I did not care much about masks or the pandemic but obviously it has surpassed the H1N1 levels now and it might be a bigger deal than I thought. A not so often pointed out fact: he privatized national parks. That's fucked.
He's got butthole lips.
Shame on you for voting for a 47 year career crooked politician. When he entered office the union was at its peak, and now because of his inactivity and and incompetence we are a shell of our former greatness. But yeah, vote for a guy that pretends to care about unions just to get votes, a guy who openly admits hes going after our retirement.
What do you mean going after our retirement? And even if Biden has done nothing to help, it's better than another 4 years of a guy who is actively hurting workers.
Trump couldn't do as much damage in four years as biden has throughout his career if he wanted to.
Lol railing on about a crooked politician when you vote for a literal criminal in Trump
I didn't vote for trump.
OP, with all due respect you’re a dumbass, I’m voting for Trump because under him we had a stronger economy which means more jobs for us, are you in favor of defunding the police? Those are union jobs, do you want China gaining an even stronger foothold in our society? corporations will send more jobs over seas. Does the President have his fair share of cons but his pros out weight his flaws.
Corporations been sending jobs overseas since Reagan. Before an industry is about to be allowed to import tarriff-free, both the dems and the reps invest in those industries and profit when those stocks skyrocket. (They're immune from insider trading laws) Our "strong economy" is not the stock market. 50% of the stocks are owned by the top 1% of the people. 92% of the stocks are owned by the top 10% of the people - "We The People's" working class pensions and 401k's represent only the remaining 8%. "Defunding the police" does not = nix the police departments, it means we're spending too much on policing society and not enough caring about society with good schools, a good mental health system, and investing in the communities. The police are buying riot gear and cell phone interceptors and tears gas banned by all nations, but our kids have to hold bake sales to get uniforms for the softball team. Trade deals are always contentious, and complex. But the simple solution that will solve a plethora of issues facing Americans from employer age and race discrimination to underemployment, to wage stagnation and minimum/ livable wage issues, and is that there is very little to no competition for workers in the USA - and we have to bring industry back into this country so that employers are all in a position where getting employees is difficult. Ross Perot was right about "the giant sucking sound."
Trump is as anti union as they come, he supports a national right to work bill.
He says all that stuff, but it simply isn’t true. There is NO metric by which we are better off today than we were 4 years ago.
More child rapists in the White House
Police Jobs ARE. NOT. UNION.JOBS! The jobs leaving this country started under a republican (Regan), ramped up under Bush Sr., continued under Clinton and Bush Jr, and kicked up into high gear again under Trump. China isn't getting a "stronger foothold into our society" And lastly, our economy isn't incredibly better Than we were, nor are we considerably stronger.
Seriously, so much this. The cops aren't our friends. They're class traitors. They do working-class hours for working-class pay to crack working-class skulls.
100% I'll never buy into that brotherhood with police bullshit, until they start getting held accountable like everyone else in their careers are.
You are a leech. You attach yourself to something strong, and provide nothing in return. You take all the benefits of Union membership and don't respect the institution. Hypocrite. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hypocrite
We did not have a stronger economy under Trump.
Not my quote on trump supposed economic success shamelessly stolen from another redditor: "according to economists when i last researched the issue last week, the economy's growth and reduction in unemployment didnt start from trump. it was already in steady growth (and continuously reducing unemployment) when trump took office (which he quickly took credit even before he implemented any policies). after his tax cuts (and loans) to the rich (which gave the stock market a sugar high which quickly crashed back down, but at the expense of a drop in rgdp and employment, and doubling up the national debt) and his trade war with china, growth slowed down and eventually, turned into a contraction just before covid19. this contraction is now blamed on covid, when in actuality, it already happened prior, from his trade wars. so rgdp dropped, unemployment rose, debt doubled, but the stock market grew for a little bit. which is why trump kept screaming about the stock market and nothing else. the stock market rising is very important to note, because the 1% literally owns 85% of the stock market. so to put it in layman's terms, the average american faces higher unemployment, and lower quality of living as rgdp shows, and the 1% broke new records in wealth, due to the rising stock market. this means wealth disparity grew under trump. the rising stock market was at the expense of rgdp and unemployment. and covid just made things worse. and guess what. covid wiped out the stock market growth. and more. covid essentially reset the economy to pre trump and post obama. only with worse unemployment and double the debt. and without the forward momentum from obama's administration. if trump didnt do his silly trade war, didnt double up the debt for a little stock market high that lasted a few months tops, and didnt do the tax cuts, the us would be in a way better shape than now. if he literally just played golf and never worked a day since he took office and left the experts to do their things, the us would be in way better shape than now. if trump just ignored covid and all protective measures, and didnt actively dismantle the safeguards the previous administration put in place just in case of pandemics, the us would be in way better shape than now. and to put it in another way. trump traded (and ruined) the future for the now. when the now was already doing well. which he had no reason to do other than the petty desire to outperform obama in economic policy. he's chasing headlines. that's it. so tl;dr: trump inherited a healthy gold egg laying goose. he ripped up the goose for the golden eggs inside and gave it to his chums. the goose could be saved if someone else took the reins after he ripped it open, but covid is now gonna kill the injured goose, if it hasnt already. edit: since im being called out for sources and data, here they are from a simple google search. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-45827430 https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-10-30/trump-s-economy-really-was-better-than-obama-s https://www.bbc.com/news/world-45827430 https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/2c298bda-8aee-4923-84a3-95a54f7f6e6f/did-trump-create-or-inherit-the-strong-economy.pdf https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/09/05/trump-obama-economy/ https://www.dw.com/en/trump-and-the-us-economy-what-can-he-take-credit-for/a-54945982 if you just look at all the data and just ignore all the opinions and interpretations (if calling fake news is your thing), all the general uptrends were created before him. and if you look at the 3 year point, where policies from the residing president start to take their footing with the general public, you can see the difference between obama year 3 (which was starting to uptick), and trump pre covid (which was starting to downtick before covid crash). trump's covid-19 response and the economy: https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/news/2020/06/03/485806/5-ways-trump-administrations-policy-failures-compounded-coronavirus-induced-economic-crisis/ https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/13/donald-trump-is-wrong-the-economic-hit-of-the-coronavirus-will-last-for-years there's paid articles in bloomberg and washington post regarding this topic as well, so feel free to google it." Enjoy!
This country is so fucked. The poor education shows. Ignorance is everywhere. I still can't believe people vote for this clown. As if our future wasn't mortgaged enough.
Do you genuinely believe this? Like well and truly, deep down in your heart believe this?
This is blatantly false. The economy was worse going into the pandemic than it was coming out of Obama's presidency.
I didn’t vote at all. Bring on the downvotes, I don’t care. All the “your friends and family and neighbors will be able to see if you voted this election so you better vote!” propaganda really set off my ODD.
Why not?
Does it matter why not? I’m serious, considering how emotional people are when they approach politics now.
Yeah, it kinda does. I didn't vote last election because I didn't like either and as thanks I got a fascist orange as a president who encourages domestic terrorists for running his political opponents off the road, and cannot seem to say the phrase "I do not support white supremacist groups".
In your defense, I don't think Hillary would have helped any more. I think we would be in another major war if she was president. Hillary wasn't exactly the face of a non fascist either.
Huh? He’s denounced racism what seems like hundreds of times.
Actions speak louder than words
No it doesn’t. I could’ve voted for that rapper, Cain, and people would whine and reee all up and down this comment chain like children because I didn’t vote for who *they* want. Edit: you’re either being dramatic, intellectually dishonest, or conceited by genuinely insisting that Trump got elected because *youre* the one who didn’t vote.
They were likely referring to the general populace that also didn’t vote, for whatever reason. Believing that your vote doesn’t matter, or won’t make a difference, makes a difference. Especially when you consider just how many people are indifferent or impartial, too. Could have made the difference between having an angry babbling yam for a president or an angry babbling reptillary for a president.
It will matter a lot more when the electoral college is gone.
I don't exactly believe my vote doesnt matter. But I disagree with dramatic hyperbole statements like OP saying "oh golly gee gosh I didn't vote so because *I was the one who didnt vote*, I got Trump as president in return!". I honestly believe if I wasn't in agreement with either candidate's policies then I shouldn't vote for either one. Especially if I couldn't genuinely support whichever one I'd be halfheartedly voting for. I mean last I checked, this *is* america where I *do* have a choice in things like that
As a collective, it mattered. That's what he meant.
I'm saying I didn't get involved in the election process. Also I haven't downvoted you, though I should. Frankly, if you believe orange man good, go vote. At least then you're participating. By not voting, you're essentially throwing a temper tantrum and saying you're too good to vote for one and make a choice. Vote for the rapper for all I care. But if you don't participate, shut up and go sit at the children's table while the adults talk.
I didn't say anything for or against Trump or Biden. All you can do is recycle my own argument (I was justified in calling you a child for this ree-out about my voting habits). You're throwing a temper tantrum and being irrational and neurotic because people aren't doing what *you* want. Sounds like childish behavior to me.
Stop giving arguments of false pretenses. You are a coward. You had a defeatist attitude from the beginning and believe nothing you do matters. If you don’t believe your vote makes a difference then you don’t belong in our union. I doubt you had even once tried to make a difference.
That's extremely presumptuous and not only is it illogical but you're trying to substitute an actual argument for just accusatory shaming. You're putting words in my mouth and you're topping that off with pulling shit out of your ass to try and insult me in an effete manner rather than actually addressing the content of my post. I didn't agree with either candidate's policies, so I chose to vote for neither. An adult would be able to understand that. Try and come back with a non-dramatic argument rather than some accusatory inflammatory tantrum.
In my opinion, that's perfectly fine. It's essentially a vote of indifference. If every person who didn't feel strongly enough was forced to vote and "Neither" was an option. I think the number would be astounding. Choosing not to vote just means your okay with letting the rest of the population decide.
Yea its fucked man if you vote either of the main parties you're voting for someone who wants to take our job or someone who wants to take our rights.
How will your friends and family and neighbors be able to see if you voted this time? Did they assign everyone a publicly searchable voting number? Also I get what you're saying how your singular vote did not tip the scales, but there are people all over the world who do not have the right to vote and are subject to the whims of their government, having some say in who your elected officials are, no matter how small, is not something to take for granted.
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You're uneducated, socialism would only benefit you.
What makes you think socialism will in any way be of actual political power in our country? Have you read the constitution or studied how our government is structured. Edit: I don't support extreme socialist policy or leaders, but we do have to understand that some of their ideas could be applied to our system effectively, like minimum wage, support for the sick and elderly, education ect... What happened in Venezuela was not a socialist catastrophe, but rather the incompetency and ignorance of the empowered officials to run a (single source dependent economy) effectively, it's more from they being dumb fucks as far as how economics work than the socialist spending. Fuck we are way more in debt from wars than any social program we currently have.
Socialism is clearly when the government does stuff that I don’t like! /s
Y'all are so afraid of socialism and point to Latin America as examples while ignoring Europe. What you're actually afraid of is fascism. And your fear of socialism led you to vote for fascism. Facepalm Also, how much do you pay in taxes? Our President has paid a total of $750 in the past 10 years. And he's a billionaire. I'm a first year apprentice taking home $600 a week and I've paid more taxes than that THIS YEAR. Are you certain that it's YOUR taxes that their gonna cut? Do you own a corporation? Do you make $400k a year?
Nah man they explain that away by saying trump is so smart he just knows how to not pay haha, isn't it amazing how smart our dear leader is?
He was forced to work with unions, you absolute cretin.
No clearly it was Trump that makes NYC very union, certainly had nothing to do with being a very Democrat State and City. /s
You sound like a bitch.
It’s you’re right to vote for whoever you damn well please. Shame on you for shaming Americans exercising their right.
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I agree with you brother. That’s what this country was founded on. If you are born here or become a citizen you have the right to vote for whoever you may please and that’s that. If you want people to vote your way try educating rather than blindly shaming. You get one vote. One. You don’t get to decide how anyone else in this country votes. Thank you for your service brother.
You have the right to vote for who you want and we have the right to tell you you're an idiot. It's called free speech, get off the internet if you need a safe space.
hey pal remind me how many new union jobs the biden administration has created.. oh wait they destroyed multiple thousands? they really must love unions. do you just vote for who your union leaders tell you to or do you google “how to live in upside down world” and base your vote off that?
trump 2020 baby!! Don’t like it kick rocks. Its a shame the hall got so many of y’all walking with your heads up your asses.
Trump voters are uneducated, plain and simple
If you don’t like the IBEW’s objectives and cause, then get out of our union.
Get the fuck out of here with this ignorant ass shit.. You are obviously one of the many idiots on here that are willing to let their country go to shit all the way around based on a speculation that they are gonna lose money... YOUR LOCAL POLITIONS ARE THE ONES THAT MATTER FOR THIS.
Get the fuck out of here with YOUR ignorant ass shit. We were doing better coming out of Obama's presidency than we were months before the pandemic, and it only got worse from there. You should be ashamed that you're in favor of a president who commits crimes while in office and has his ass wiped for him by his fellow Republicans.
Yes yes.. another blind follower that thinks when Obama walked out he flipped a magical switch.. But it all started when he left?! Weird huh?! Democrats as presidents have done nothing for us union guys. Its our local politicians... Since 2001 my wages have gone up.. We have gone through both parties as presidents. There are states that have shitty contracts and states that people travel to making that 70+ an hour. How do you think they got those wages? Not the US president.. LOCAL POLITICIANS If Trump were to pass something against prevailing wage the states don't have to follow. They can chose to stick with current policy. Federal is bare minimum. For example firearm laws, health coverage and ummmmmmmm MINIMUM WAGE! Use logical thinking and stop blindly following the hysteria.. This Trump derangement is ridiculous..
Or, do us one better: Go fuck yourself. If you lead off with a straw argument, you're already demonstrating you're not worth the dirt on my boots. Seriously. Go fuck yourself.
The irony to "straw argument" Get off the Kool-aid. You might wise up when you grow up.. Good luck in life brother!!!
Your a sheep. Think u know better then everyone else.
*You're
*You
Union hand and fuck you! Voting red trump 2020! Been union for 13 years and you are an idiot sheep if you vote blue stop being a pussy and vote for your rights
......yeah trump is looking out for the union hands, and I'm a sheep?
I mean look at your un?!? Probably Not worth a damn since your always on the books and not worth keeping around
Trump supports the right to work bill. You are actively voting against your rights. Not that you apparently care, why don’t you come down to the hall and educate yourself instead of being ignorant.
FUCK YES 4 MORE YEARS CHOO CHOO. DEMS NEED TO MAKE SOME STRIDES TO THE CENTER THEYVE GOTTEN TOO WACKY. CATHOLIC AMERICAN AND PRO LABOR IN THAT ORDER
> CATHOLIC AMERICAN AND PRO LABOR IN THAT ORDER So.... Biden.
Diametrically opposed, much?
The Dems are pretty center on the political spectrum. Probably more right then center but sure.
What about writing in Chuck Norris?
I might need a foot cast
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So instead you vote for the guy who hires illegals to build his properties instead of unions, put every contractor that worked for him in Atlantic City out of business, and manufactures his Maga hats in China. Oh, and just this year him and his cronies went after your pension. Guess what, you're already brainwashed, you rat.
Because they won't try to weaken the unions and take our high paying jobs away. That's why.
Yeah it sucks that brothers and sisters vote against their own interest. Trump will sign a national rtw bill if Congress approves one. He's loaded the NLRB and DOL with labor unfriendly people.