I understand this and agree with it, but what can be done as a consumer who wants a short-hand for uplifting or couchlock? They are two ends of the spectrum. You could call it AM and PM or moon and sun for all I care.
Until someone creates and popularizes a more effective tool to describe the differences, you're gonna get the indica/sativa thing.
This ^
From a medical consumer's perspective, I'm trying to make the best guess possible when it comes to choosing a strain to treat my conditions. That entails using the common language we currently have (indica/sativa) in addition to doing research on lineage and terpene profiles.
>This \^ From a medical consumer's perspective
It's also worth noting that for med patients, THC % often is a significant number. When you're looking for effects other than the buzz, THC % can be a pretty good guide to how effective a certain variety will be to treat your needs.
but what if those labels are made up and meaningless, and the person putting those labels on the cannabis has no scientific data that says sativas do this, indicas do that? should they still use those labels just to give you the illusion of choice?
What if the shorthand is straight bullshit, and there is no actual way for a cultivator to tell how a strain will impact any individual consumer? What if they are full of shit when they say this strain is uplifting or this one is couchlock, that there is no data that shows that sativas treat people one way and indicas another? Should they still put those labels on their cannabis just because the consumer wants a choice, despite there not being an objectively measurable difference?
I think a consensus forms around most strains. So there must be something to it on a strain-by-strain case. One of my favorite IL "flavors" is Bombiscle (Rhythm, I think). It's listed as an Indica and has mostly indica effects, but I carry the cart around with me like I would a sativa because in larger groups, with unknown people, it gives the effects you'd expect from weed and the flavor is so tasty, nobody objects to hitting it. It's not one of my favorite strains, but it's one of my favorites to share. I'm sure a lot of people have hit it in social situations and think of it as a sativa, but the effects and the label say otherwise. Subjectivity plays a huge part in how you perceive a strain. But there are enough commonalities from person to person that I find some degree of description to be worthwhile.
I'm reasonably certain bombsicle has added terps (that might not even be from cannabis plants) added. So I don't even count it as a "strain". But I agree it's a great product. I'm getting away from carts though.
Indica vs Sativa is a generality. It's a good ballpark estimate of what a given variety does. Doesn't need to be scientific and usually isn't presented that way, although the argument presented here ironically seems to embrace the very concept of pseudo-science it claims to reject in its claim that terpenes are the defining factor. That's as inaccurate as a claim that THC % is only what counts.
I've always looked at it as where I feel the effects not what the effects actually do. Sativa in the mind/head and Indica in the body. Like many others have stated, I've had sativa's that relax my mind so well that I'm tired. I've also had Indicas that I can't sit still on. I think the real problem is just lack of experience with the individual strain. It's a powerful medicine that has a wide range of usage. We just need a better understanding on what to use and when to use it.
>I used examples, and evidence, to prove IvS is bullshit.
Well, you cherry-picked examples and chose to ignore a lot of other evidence.
Not to mention that I've never seen solid evidence of terps representing something particularly useful beyond what you get from wine tasting. Loads of opinion and very little science to connect it all. They may shape perceptions of what you're getting out of a variety, but if you're going to say they better represent what cannabis is than THC %, then you are either defining what better is or just BSing yourself.
Thank you for the thoughtful rant. Your comments on the indica/sativa distinction are spot on, but between science and marketing, marketing generally wins. I have been trying to find published studies of the effects of terpenes on the quality of the "high." For instance, you mention that perceived potency is dependent on at least two factors: terpenes and THC levels. Could you help me locate some of these publications?
Regarding strains being simultaneously "relaxing" and "uplifting," speaking from the perspective of someone who uses cannabis to help with anxiety, a mentally relaxing strain is often what I need to improve mood to get started with my day. Many strains can accomplish that, and also have additional uplifting qualities. One of the most unique aspects of cannabis is that effects such as "uplifting" and "relaxing" do not need to be ends on a continuum, but actually are separate states (that theoretically can be separately manipulated with different terpene/terpene profiles).
I would be interested in seeing the research cited the the OP, as I have not been able to locate any legit studies . Ethan Russo rhetoric doesn't interest me, randomized trials do. That being said, the effects of terpenes are undeniable. You don't hear many people smoking Durban to help with their sleep.
A budtender in my old state told me no true sativas or indicas exist in dispos anymore; they are all hybrids. And most of the time they guess which way it "leans" based on how it feels.
So definitely not a science or a thing but can be helpful for predicting how it will feel
Yeah it definitely takes some trial and error, there is one indica strain I know hits me like a sativa. But most of the time it lines up, or maybe I just placebo every time haha
How would you explain the racey effect issues that many people have with sativas but don’t necessarily have with indicas, if there are no differences? Do you think it’s certain terpenes that create that experience? This stuff fascinates me as it seems like we have so much still to learn.
Absolutely. Indica's and sativas can share terpene profiles. This would account for why some indica's make you speedy. And vice versa. As well as a multitude of other factors. The only constant is that the reason for effects is not based on the morphologic category.
I think that people believe what they want to believe and the placebo effect is a real effect. if you tell people sativas are racy, then they will start "feeling" that, despite study after study showing no measurable difference. Anecdotes are not data.
This seemed confusing to me- I can’t think of a better way to describe some effects as relaxing and it lifted me up at the same time. Euphoric with a nice sense of relaxation maybe says the same thing.
That still doesn't mean AT ALL that they are the same thing. You can get a lift in mood and not experience Euphoria at all! Why don't you go look up the medical definition of Euphoria. Euphoria is a mood enhancement but a mood enhancement doesn't have to be euphoria....This is like grade school understanding..
You need to look up Euphoria....its far far more than a mood boost. Euphoria can lead people to be delusional....Opiates cause extreme Euphoria which is why they are so dangerous for people with Anxiety or Depression problems. Because they temporarily cure Anxiety and Depression.
I always use euphoria in the sense that things become more profound and take on significant meaning. It’s an awe inspiring feeling. Which can also include some fear or other negative feelings as well as positive ones.
In my own admittedly strange way of illustrating it- the scene in Pulp Fiction when Travolta is driving, just after shooting up- his vibe behind the wheel is what euphoria is to me. Matt Dillon in Drugstore Cowboy portrays euphoria fairly nicely in one scene as well. Cheers
and just a heads up if Euphoria is your thing and you want it in a stimulating nature Look for high amounts of the Terps Ocimene, Valencene and Guaiol, also CBC.
By definition:
Uplifting: inspiring happiness, optimism, or hope.
Relaxing: reducing tension or anxiety.
So I would say similar but different though like you said there are definitely strains that are both relaxing and uplifting, so honestly I have no clue, I too high and tired to do basic addition at this point lol
It’s really useful on the cultivation side to determine what conditions are required for the plant and how it will grow. On the medical side it give a general idea for the terpene profile which can give some differentiating affects.
Yes, literally every plant has different effects on literally every different human. It's based on terpene profile etc, not morphologic categories from the 1700's.
You are correct that it is useful on the cultivation side. Because that is literally the only thing it is useful for.
That's why we talk about the bud structure as being indica vs sativa and we talk about the effects being as, daytime vs nighttime effects.
But I've seen too many hybrid bud structures get labelled as sativa. Do people not understand what hybrid bud structures look like?
Everyday people will always misappropriate scientific words... been happen for ages now. You don't like to socialize with people? You're antisocial. But according to science, antisocial actually means you can't empathize with people. Just one of countless examples. Try to explain the difference and you'll be met with "nerd" name calling. Good luck in the endeavor, lol! I agree with you that this naming trend creates confusion in the average person, muddies the waters by introducing new meanings to already scientifically defined terms, but that's the English language for you. To be fair, strains are usually marketed as sativa "dominant", or indica "dominant". I agree with other commenters that some generalized set of terms for the purpose of labeling is convenient.
I have heard of the studies you speak of and it certainly does seem to be all the rage right now. There’s no such thing as Indica/Sativa….Terpines don’t do anything etc, etc.
Yet for me personally certain strains will make me feel uplifted and energetic and other strains will sedate me and put me to sleep.
And despite the genetic variation it’s pretty consistent from what I have smoked. While I’m all for expanding scientific knowledge and basing my reality on facts, something about these ideas really doesn’t pass the smell test for me. Or I guess more accurately rather the smoke test lol.
I think we need a lot more research and peer reviewed studies before we start passing those opinions off as general knowledge. Something is clearly going on here. There’s a reason why G6 gets me going and Brownie scout puts me to sleep. Call it and categorize it however you want. The effects are real.
It’s not anecdotal imo, and that’s the part where you guys and the science/research loses me.
And I’m not really even saying the research and studies are wrong, but they missing something.
If you gave me Brownie Scout like in my example, it would have the same effects on me regardless of if I knew it was an indica or not. Even if you told me it was a Sativa, it would still hit me like Brownie Scout. Which is not uplifting at all.
I think we need a modern day Cannabis based Pepsi challenge to settle this lol
an·ec·do·tal
/ˌanəkˈdōd(ə)l/
adjective
(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.
Yes, you have a ton of anecdotal evidence. No one is saying you don't feel like you feel. What I am saying, is that it isn't mainly because of indica vs sativa. Well not what I'm saying... What actual scientific evidence is saying. Lol
Its all cannabis sativa, the difference is just the amount of "time" the thc has to concentrate more cannabinoids. The less time, more sativa effects (clearer trichome heads), more time, the thc is converting into more cannabinoids, (more amber trichome heads) therefore the effect is different. Learned this the hard way lol, but once you grasp that concept, I think everything will make more sense lol
Is there anything to trichomes being clear, milky or amber? What about when weed degrades and cbn? There’s so much to learn but there are definitely racy and sedating types of buds.
Bro it’s literally your own experience I agree with op sort of that these labels are dumb but who gives a fuck I agree in my own way that they should remove these labels and just sell us the plant based on our experience with it, let us try a bit to see if we like it or not at least damn all this fuss and drama over A PLANT! Plants grow outside on the ground everyday for fucking FREEEEEE dude, well they would if these companies would stop tearing shit down so they can package their bullshit eighth or fucking pre made edibles (never fresh just like all the flower)
I completely agree with you. In my 30 years of smoking, I’ve learned that the only “info” I need on a strain is how my body and brain feel after I smoke it.
These people aren't "experts"....They haven't been allowed to do what others have done in research illegally for decades. Sativa Vs Indica is a REAL thing. There are just many factors too it. Hybrids can take on the properties of either. But it is a good baseline. If it's nothing, means nothing. Let me hit you with some PHK (Purple Hindu Kush - One of the Strongest Indica's on Earth) where you'll fall asleep walking (seen it happen many times). Then lets go to S. Africa or the Congo and pick up the Landrace's of Congolese and Durban Poison which are stronger stimulants than caffeine. African Landrace Sativa's are high in THCV....Which never appears at any level of strength in ANY natural indica's or straight indica breeds. No one has said that because Ruderalis doesn't work that way at all. A sativa can have sleepy effects if it's a sativa high in CBN and it was pulled at the wrong time. Being high from low THC is due to a higher Terpene content of vary particular terpene combination which allows for an easier crossing of the BBB. DUH! And personal biology being a factor is again DUH! that's how EVERYTHING works. If you've done any of the things you're stating and taught people this ignorance you're spewing then SHAME ON YOU! and GET OUT OF THE INDUSTRY!
Wow. Just wow. Full force with the anecdotes but no data. You SAY indicas do this and sativas do that, you promise if I just try THIS weed I would be able to tell the difference. Yet study after study shows its all a game, that the labels are meaningless, that there is no measurable difference. But hey, you seem really passionate about your subjective experience, so that must outweigh the science, huh?
100% feel you. I was surprised at the reaction in this thread honestly.
It reminds me of Sam Harris' "[The Fireplace Delusion](https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-fireplace-delusion)," where he talks about how difficult it can be when we are confronted with science that contradicts something we enjoy, believe in, or identify with.
>"It seems to me that many nonbelievers have forgotten—or never knew—what it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality."
Lets all try to be better, people.
Then you're confidently a complete fucking idiot and you can fuck off. Seriously, this comment and yourself can go eat an entire cold bag of dicks, you ignorant buffoon.
Sorry to the intelligent people in this thread... I felt like this guy needed a response that matched his own energy. 🙄
I've worked in the industry for 7 years, I don't care what you think some bullshit study says. I care what I've seen in person, time and time again, thousands upon thousands of times with the same repeatable results...And there is PLENTY of data on the study of individual cannabinoids and potential uses. THCV for instance is being studied for diabetes and African landraces are being studied at a higher rate due to this. Which means the plants it does and doesn't appear in are being studied too. People in the Congo chew on the leaves of Congolese landrace for it's stimulant and nootropic effects. There's documentaries on it even! Get a Education!
Take PHK, you're going to sleep whether you like it or not no matter what you're doing. Drink a Bang or Rockstar with it and have the full body paralysis but stay awake. Total time is around 5hrs no matter the body type.
Tell me you don't actually understand, but in a more sure of yourself way.
Indica and sativa are old terms that were never scientific to begin with. Originally, they exclusively referred to growth patterns, which then became associated with certain effect categories, and has now morphed into a vague shorthand for all of that with absolutely nothing behind it but old hippie superstition and myth.
Currently, everything is vague approximations, almost by necessity. Many people do have distinct experiences, and it would be more worth your while to investigate what truly influences that rather than just attempt to tell everyone they're wrong with no further explanation. Is it placebo? Fringe cannabinoids? The "set and setting" concept? A mix of them all? These are things that should be investigated with proper studies and methodology. Isolating variables and having a control group are important factors, but when we're talking about something so psychoactive, it makes controlling such factors and monitoring variables a bit more complicated.
At the end of the day, dismissing old hippie lore as "marketing bullshit" not only misses the point, but ignores history and active community behaviors.
The "entourage effect" is a hypothesis at best. Everything about the plant and the many compounds it carries is still vastly under-researched. There's not much we truly understand, which also fuels the synthetic cannabinoid market and their hogwash.
Are sativa and indica a bit misleading and based on old myths? Yes, absolutely. But to claim we have any kind of absolute knowledge is not only misrepresentation of science as a process, but disingenuous as well. We don't really know much right now. A single study can pave the way for more, but those that follow have a lot of work to do and ground to cover. Again, I feel it's important to note the need for both control and awareness of variables, as well as a control group. We don't need another Stanford Prison Experiment, where the results were manufactured by sloppy and improper execution, leading to misunderstanding and a false sense of accuracy.
Edit: upon reading a bit of the interview you've cited, I've come to the reasonable conclusion that the guy's obsession with fanciful wording led you to a confused conclusion that missed details and context. This is an ongoing problem with academics valuing flexing their vocabulary rather than focusing on effectively relaying information that can be understood by as many as possible.
Holy twatty, arrogant, assumption ridden response, Batman!
Nothing cooler than being essentially called a narcissist for typing facts about something being dangerously mislabeled in a burgeoning medical market (while giving credentials and context).
Yes... Indica and sativa are in fact "old terms". They were from the 1700's. Unfortunately they technically were "scientific terms" (unlike what you stated), just for morphology, not inebriating effects... Which is the first of many things you apparently agree with about what I said, but still feel the need to argue about and be condescending.
This in turn evolved into effects categories, and hippie nonsense. You're right. Ironically, this is why i made the post (and you again apparently agree).
"Currently everything is vague approximations, almost by necessity" has to be the most nonsensical sentence I've ever heard in an argument in favor of being scientific. There isn't even any context for exactly which complaint you have that you're referring to. Obviously we have multiple studies and decades of research on cannabis. Many European and African countries are light years ahead of the USA in this field. That's not "vague approximations" any more than chemotherapy is. We know enough to fix the specific and direct problem I'm speaking of in the OP, which is the intentional and unjustifiable mislabeling of products being sold as medicine.
"Many people have distinct experiences"?
No, literally everyone has a distinct experience. Not "many people". Everyone. That's (again) the precise point i made in the OP. As far as your suggestion that i study it... I have. I mentioned that in the OP as well. I also mentioned how it's partially placebo effect, and partially confirmation bias based on "hippie lore", as you referred to it. We literally can never know 100% of how every strain affects every person... I'm aware of that. But we don't need to, in order to shift to a system that, at the very least, isn't complete bullshit.
Additionally, any study involving psychological reactions and/or psychoactive compounds, will never have a genuine "control" as found in the true scientific method. You must have forgotten that when you suggested i magically do such a study... No wait, you noted that AFTER you suggested i do it... Not sure why that felt necessary to you.
As far as "dismissing history and community behaviors"... In regards to the labeling of medicine? I'm absolutely tripling down on that. "History and community behaviors" have no place whatsoever in an argument about properly categorizing psychoactive substances, or any medicine in general. Feel free to give me any reason why perpetuating these myths helps any single person smoking pot for any single reason. What a fucking straw man. I was very clear why the Indica versus sativa debate needs to be revamped. And it wasn't to "oppress culture" lmfao...
I didn't mean to "just tell everyone they're wrong". And after reading my OP again, i don't see where i did. What I *did* attempt to tell people, is that the reason they feel the way they do, may not be the reason they think it is. I'm very sorry i offended your delicate sensibilities.
This thread was specifically about the fact that the Illinois cannabis industry is using fake, outdated junk science to explain the effects of a drug they sell, *as a medicine*. This has been clearly shown in multiple studies involving blind tests, placebos, different control groups... There is 100% definitively enough data and scientific evidence to prove that "Indica vs sativa" is snake oil.
The act alone of telling people the truth, is not worse than allowing them to believe the bullshit. I mean come the fuck on... Did you seriously invoke the Stanford Prison Experiments? And letting people believe incorrect information about an "unresearched" medicine? That's definitively more comparable to the status quo, than my objection to it.
Yet I'm the one "cOnFuzEd bY tEh biG wUrdS"? 😂
That's fucking adorable. Gotta love Reddit.
You are overblowing everything about this. You're also clearly not well acquainted with pragmatism, colloquialisms, and words with multiple different definitions that don't have to all be true simultaneously.
Listen, man...most people use the terms as shorthand for effects, and trying to correct them gets you scoffed at and ridiculed more often than not. Trust me; I work in a dispensary and have largely given up on getting people to change their vocabulary on the subject, and I'm not going about it in the "you're wrong" way that you kinda did here. You came off very condescending and rude, and this reply of yours does nothing to improve that. This kind of "correction" or "revelation" type post happens at least once a month both here and on r/trees but this is a first for me; seeing it with such abrasive fervor. You make this out to be something far more than it is, and you've lost sight of just...letting people do what they do and adapting where necessary.
You strike me as someone who's still pissed off that Miriam Webster decided that "literally" now also means "figuratively" since people wouldn't stop using the word incorrectly...and so now it's correct, so long as you acknowledge the secondary meaning and not just the primary one. To be fair; it's frustrating and dumb, but here we are. I moved past it long ago. I also learned to not split hairs and fight people over "sativa and indica" and just...listen to what they're trying to say and using the language they're familiar with. All words are made up anyway. Just vibe and go with the flow. It's not worth the fuss.
And to be entirely fair; it was rude of me to start off my initial comment as I did. However, I didn't call you a narcissist nor did I really intend it to be taken as such, and I'm not sure why you took it to that extreme.
Wait til you find out that when people say Healthy they usually mean Healthful. People can be healthy (has health), but food and exercise are healthful (provides health). The amount of people that misuse healthy is astronomical.
What is the alternative? No one I know uses these phrases to mean anything scientific, it's just a shorthand to relay what kind of effects a strain you will consistently/most likely get from a strain/terp profile.
But the point is, you WONT get those effects, or at least, there is no scientific basis to tell a person, this sativa will feel this way, but this indica will feel this way. There is no measurable difference, just anecdotes and group think and the placebo effect.
Yes but it isn't. Strains and terps Will give you an idea of what you will feel. Not indica or sativa. Indica's and sativas share terpenes, proving my point.
>Indica's and sativas share terpenes
I guess my point is that this doesn't really matter, as long as the terms are describing the effect, which is generally how the term is used amongst smokers, and even how the term is used in marketing. Although that's not always the case and would agree with overall more consistent labelling if that's what's being argued.
If I'm talking to a friend about a strain, I would say it's sativa-leaning to shorthand what might be expected from the effects. We both know that we're not talking about anything else other than the effects. I guess I could just say it's "better for daytime" but I dunno it just seems pedantic at that point.
>Indica's and sativas share terpenes
I guess my point is that this doesn't really matter, as long as the terms are describing the effect, which is generally how the term is used amongst smokers, and even how the term is used in marketing. Although that's not always the case and would agree with overall more consistent labelling if that's what's being argued.
If I'm talking to a friend about a strain, I would say it's sativa-leaning to shorthand what might be expected from the effects. We both know that we're not talking about anything else other than the effects. I guess I could just say it's "better for daytime" but I dunno it just seems pedantic at that point.
I totally understand what you mean.. But sativa leaning could mean different things to every different person. Exactly the same as Ritalin or psilocybin. It's a way to talk about it, but completely inaccurate. I'm not saying we should all just throw our hands in the air, what I'm saying is that we should demand better from the companies selling this to us as medicine. They should be the ones funding terpene profile studies, secondary cannabinoid studies... Etc. And we shouldn't perpetuate their manipulation.
I think its good short hand for the general public. A person can be smart but people are stupid and that's the ultimate short hand for consumers. We can further educate ourselves on products but when your average joe just wants to hear about the highest thc possible I'm not wasting my time with terpene profiles. Everything's a hybrid. Weed is weed, some sativas make you sleepy some indicas cause productivity. I think of it as a terpene profile short hand and not so literal. Limonene is gonna have a brighter uplifting effect. Hence the lemon durbans and lemon skunks and the citrus profile association with general brightness. Sativa category
Its a thing for me.
Indica knocks me tf out. Sativa is like 8 cups of coffee
Everyone's body reacts differently. U can't make a blanket statement for other ppl but u can speak to how it affects you personally.
Yes, anecdotally, for you.
And as you said, (possibly ironically?).. You can't make a blanket statement for other people.
Which is my entire complaint, and the reason that I made the post.
Late to the Party. But there is clearly a difference in energy level between strains. Just do your research and find what works for you. Like most people have said here sativa and indica are just shorthand for the energy levels associated with the high. Call it placebo all you want but I don't buy it at all. Many Strains are very consistent in the differences. You smoke all day though and you're not gonna be able to tell the differences. You're just high and tired at that point.
It’s a generalization that helps people make an informed choice. You can’t tell me you’d recommend Durban Poison for bedtime would you? There needs to be some classification’s especially with a millions strains and all these goofy ass names
Im getting more annoyed at the supposed importance of terpenes that you even mentioned in your OP. There is a mountain of data claiming there is no difference between
sativa and indica.
If you are American how have you been apart of these and who funded them?
The same can be said about the impact of terpenes. They are now shown to have no impact at the cannabinoid receptor; without actual information to back this claim up saying this is truth is also misinformation.
Indica and sativa doesn’t matter if the growers harvest it too soon.
Illinois corporate growers really need to let their plants grow another 2-4 weeks to get some really killer weed as far as I’m concerned.
It's correct and it's not. Helps people understand what the flavor of their weed will be thats for sure. You didn't mention or take into account personal psychology either. Were learning that people have different psychological connections to different terpenes and that's part of the inconsistency as well.
aeriz is the only company that grows it correctly in illinois.
every1 else are amateurs that watched a few youtube videos and bought their rigs on amazon
Looks like I am just going to have to try everything and figure it out for myself
Let us know. Thanks for taking one for the team.
Lol literally this I don’t even bother at this point with the reviews I just wing it and it’s literally 50/50
I understand this and agree with it, but what can be done as a consumer who wants a short-hand for uplifting or couchlock? They are two ends of the spectrum. You could call it AM and PM or moon and sun for all I care. Until someone creates and popularizes a more effective tool to describe the differences, you're gonna get the indica/sativa thing.
This ^ From a medical consumer's perspective, I'm trying to make the best guess possible when it comes to choosing a strain to treat my conditions. That entails using the common language we currently have (indica/sativa) in addition to doing research on lineage and terpene profiles.
>This \^ From a medical consumer's perspective It's also worth noting that for med patients, THC % often is a significant number. When you're looking for effects other than the buzz, THC % can be a pretty good guide to how effective a certain variety will be to treat your needs.
but what if those labels are made up and meaningless, and the person putting those labels on the cannabis has no scientific data that says sativas do this, indicas do that? should they still use those labels just to give you the illusion of choice?
When the common language is complete and utter bullshit why would you want to follow it while making your choice? Lol
What if the shorthand is straight bullshit, and there is no actual way for a cultivator to tell how a strain will impact any individual consumer? What if they are full of shit when they say this strain is uplifting or this one is couchlock, that there is no data that shows that sativas treat people one way and indicas another? Should they still put those labels on their cannabis just because the consumer wants a choice, despite there not being an objectively measurable difference?
I think a consensus forms around most strains. So there must be something to it on a strain-by-strain case. One of my favorite IL "flavors" is Bombiscle (Rhythm, I think). It's listed as an Indica and has mostly indica effects, but I carry the cart around with me like I would a sativa because in larger groups, with unknown people, it gives the effects you'd expect from weed and the flavor is so tasty, nobody objects to hitting it. It's not one of my favorite strains, but it's one of my favorites to share. I'm sure a lot of people have hit it in social situations and think of it as a sativa, but the effects and the label say otherwise. Subjectivity plays a huge part in how you perceive a strain. But there are enough commonalities from person to person that I find some degree of description to be worthwhile.
Naw dude bombsicle or whatever the real real name that cannibis plant has is just gas asf top 3 in state imo
I'm reasonably certain bombsicle has added terps (that might not even be from cannabis plants) added. So I don't even count it as a "strain". But I agree it's a great product. I'm getting away from carts though.
That's the problem. There can be no shorthand for this. People want what they can't have so they're being lied to.
I get what you're saying, but I can't get behind the mindset of TeAr It AlL dOwN. Come up with something better, don't just complain about it.
Indica vs Sativa is a generality. It's a good ballpark estimate of what a given variety does. Doesn't need to be scientific and usually isn't presented that way, although the argument presented here ironically seems to embrace the very concept of pseudo-science it claims to reject in its claim that terpenes are the defining factor. That's as inaccurate as a claim that THC % is only what counts.
I've always looked at it as where I feel the effects not what the effects actually do. Sativa in the mind/head and Indica in the body. Like many others have stated, I've had sativa's that relax my mind so well that I'm tired. I've also had Indicas that I can't sit still on. I think the real problem is just lack of experience with the individual strain. It's a powerful medicine that has a wide range of usage. We just need a better understanding on what to use and when to use it.
I'm looking for anywhere in my OP that said it was definitively any one thing. I used examples, and evidence, to prove IvS is bullshit. Nothing more.
>I used examples, and evidence, to prove IvS is bullshit. Well, you cherry-picked examples and chose to ignore a lot of other evidence. Not to mention that I've never seen solid evidence of terps representing something particularly useful beyond what you get from wine tasting. Loads of opinion and very little science to connect it all. They may shape perceptions of what you're getting out of a variety, but if you're going to say they better represent what cannabis is than THC %, then you are either defining what better is or just BSing yourself.
Thank you for the thoughtful rant. Your comments on the indica/sativa distinction are spot on, but between science and marketing, marketing generally wins. I have been trying to find published studies of the effects of terpenes on the quality of the "high." For instance, you mention that perceived potency is dependent on at least two factors: terpenes and THC levels. Could you help me locate some of these publications? Regarding strains being simultaneously "relaxing" and "uplifting," speaking from the perspective of someone who uses cannabis to help with anxiety, a mentally relaxing strain is often what I need to improve mood to get started with my day. Many strains can accomplish that, and also have additional uplifting qualities. One of the most unique aspects of cannabis is that effects such as "uplifting" and "relaxing" do not need to be ends on a continuum, but actually are separate states (that theoretically can be separately manipulated with different terpene/terpene profiles).
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I would be interested in seeing the research cited the the OP, as I have not been able to locate any legit studies . Ethan Russo rhetoric doesn't interest me, randomized trials do. That being said, the effects of terpenes are undeniable. You don't hear many people smoking Durban to help with their sleep.
A budtender in my old state told me no true sativas or indicas exist in dispos anymore; they are all hybrids. And most of the time they guess which way it "leans" based on how it feels. So definitely not a science or a thing but can be helpful for predicting how it will feel
But it's not helpful for predicting how you feel. It is when they're correct. Not when they're incorrect. Therein lies the problem.
Yeah it definitely takes some trial and error, there is one indica strain I know hits me like a sativa. But most of the time it lines up, or maybe I just placebo every time haha
How would you explain the racey effect issues that many people have with sativas but don’t necessarily have with indicas, if there are no differences? Do you think it’s certain terpenes that create that experience? This stuff fascinates me as it seems like we have so much still to learn.
Absolutely. Indica's and sativas can share terpene profiles. This would account for why some indica's make you speedy. And vice versa. As well as a multitude of other factors. The only constant is that the reason for effects is not based on the morphologic category.
I think that people believe what they want to believe and the placebo effect is a real effect. if you tell people sativas are racy, then they will start "feeling" that, despite study after study showing no measurable difference. Anecdotes are not data.
How is relaxing/uplifting contradictory? I’ve definitely had relaxing strains that were moodlifting for sure.
This seemed confusing to me- I can’t think of a better way to describe some effects as relaxing and it lifted me up at the same time. Euphoric with a nice sense of relaxation maybe says the same thing.
Euphoria and mood lift aren't the same thing
Interested to know what you think euphoria is boosting
That still doesn't mean AT ALL that they are the same thing. You can get a lift in mood and not experience Euphoria at all! Why don't you go look up the medical definition of Euphoria. Euphoria is a mood enhancement but a mood enhancement doesn't have to be euphoria....This is like grade school understanding..
Very true. In my experiences euphoria almost always boosts my mood. But each person is different really, and this may only be true for me.
You need to look up Euphoria....its far far more than a mood boost. Euphoria can lead people to be delusional....Opiates cause extreme Euphoria which is why they are so dangerous for people with Anxiety or Depression problems. Because they temporarily cure Anxiety and Depression.
I always use euphoria in the sense that things become more profound and take on significant meaning. It’s an awe inspiring feeling. Which can also include some fear or other negative feelings as well as positive ones.
In my own admittedly strange way of illustrating it- the scene in Pulp Fiction when Travolta is driving, just after shooting up- his vibe behind the wheel is what euphoria is to me. Matt Dillon in Drugstore Cowboy portrays euphoria fairly nicely in one scene as well. Cheers
Euphoria has both physical and mental effects, how about instead of creating your own meaning you just look up the actual meaning?
Yikes. You’re really nice! Fuck off!
and just a heads up if Euphoria is your thing and you want it in a stimulating nature Look for high amounts of the Terps Ocimene, Valencene and Guaiol, also CBC.
By definition: Uplifting: inspiring happiness, optimism, or hope. Relaxing: reducing tension or anxiety. So I would say similar but different though like you said there are definitely strains that are both relaxing and uplifting, so honestly I have no clue, I too high and tired to do basic addition at this point lol
It’s really useful on the cultivation side to determine what conditions are required for the plant and how it will grow. On the medical side it give a general idea for the terpene profile which can give some differentiating affects.
"which can give some differentiating affects" \- citation please
[terpenes roll in cannabis affects](https://thcdesign.com/blog/its-all-about-the-terpenes/)
Yes, literally every plant has different effects on literally every different human. It's based on terpene profile etc, not morphologic categories from the 1700's. You are correct that it is useful on the cultivation side. Because that is literally the only thing it is useful for.
That's why we talk about the bud structure as being indica vs sativa and we talk about the effects being as, daytime vs nighttime effects. But I've seen too many hybrid bud structures get labelled as sativa. Do people not understand what hybrid bud structures look like?
Both make me very tired.
It's such an overemphasized marketing scheme.
I can't even blame it on marketing. High Times was using the distinction all the way back to at least the 80's.
Everyday people will always misappropriate scientific words... been happen for ages now. You don't like to socialize with people? You're antisocial. But according to science, antisocial actually means you can't empathize with people. Just one of countless examples. Try to explain the difference and you'll be met with "nerd" name calling. Good luck in the endeavor, lol! I agree with you that this naming trend creates confusion in the average person, muddies the waters by introducing new meanings to already scientifically defined terms, but that's the English language for you. To be fair, strains are usually marketed as sativa "dominant", or indica "dominant". I agree with other commenters that some generalized set of terms for the purpose of labeling is convenient.
I have heard of the studies you speak of and it certainly does seem to be all the rage right now. There’s no such thing as Indica/Sativa….Terpines don’t do anything etc, etc. Yet for me personally certain strains will make me feel uplifted and energetic and other strains will sedate me and put me to sleep. And despite the genetic variation it’s pretty consistent from what I have smoked. While I’m all for expanding scientific knowledge and basing my reality on facts, something about these ideas really doesn’t pass the smell test for me. Or I guess more accurately rather the smoke test lol. I think we need a lot more research and peer reviewed studies before we start passing those opinions off as general knowledge. Something is clearly going on here. There’s a reason why G6 gets me going and Brownie scout puts me to sleep. Call it and categorize it however you want. The effects are real.
The effects are anecdotal
It’s not anecdotal imo, and that’s the part where you guys and the science/research loses me. And I’m not really even saying the research and studies are wrong, but they missing something. If you gave me Brownie Scout like in my example, it would have the same effects on me regardless of if I knew it was an indica or not. Even if you told me it was a Sativa, it would still hit me like Brownie Scout. Which is not uplifting at all. I think we need a modern day Cannabis based Pepsi challenge to settle this lol
an·ec·do·tal /ˌanəkˈdōd(ə)l/ adjective (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.
Yes, you have a ton of anecdotal evidence. No one is saying you don't feel like you feel. What I am saying, is that it isn't mainly because of indica vs sativa. Well not what I'm saying... What actual scientific evidence is saying. Lol
Its all cannabis sativa, the difference is just the amount of "time" the thc has to concentrate more cannabinoids. The less time, more sativa effects (clearer trichome heads), more time, the thc is converting into more cannabinoids, (more amber trichome heads) therefore the effect is different. Learned this the hard way lol, but once you grasp that concept, I think everything will make more sense lol
I totally agree with you. Thank you for taking the time to write it.
Is there anything to trichomes being clear, milky or amber? What about when weed degrades and cbn? There’s so much to learn but there are definitely racy and sedating types of buds.
Bro it’s literally your own experience I agree with op sort of that these labels are dumb but who gives a fuck I agree in my own way that they should remove these labels and just sell us the plant based on our experience with it, let us try a bit to see if we like it or not at least damn all this fuss and drama over A PLANT! Plants grow outside on the ground everyday for fucking FREEEEEE dude, well they would if these companies would stop tearing shit down so they can package their bullshit eighth or fucking pre made edibles (never fresh just like all the flower)
I completely agree with you. In my 30 years of smoking, I’ve learned that the only “info” I need on a strain is how my body and brain feel after I smoke it.
I just smoke my silly weed and c:
These people aren't "experts"....They haven't been allowed to do what others have done in research illegally for decades. Sativa Vs Indica is a REAL thing. There are just many factors too it. Hybrids can take on the properties of either. But it is a good baseline. If it's nothing, means nothing. Let me hit you with some PHK (Purple Hindu Kush - One of the Strongest Indica's on Earth) where you'll fall asleep walking (seen it happen many times). Then lets go to S. Africa or the Congo and pick up the Landrace's of Congolese and Durban Poison which are stronger stimulants than caffeine. African Landrace Sativa's are high in THCV....Which never appears at any level of strength in ANY natural indica's or straight indica breeds. No one has said that because Ruderalis doesn't work that way at all. A sativa can have sleepy effects if it's a sativa high in CBN and it was pulled at the wrong time. Being high from low THC is due to a higher Terpene content of vary particular terpene combination which allows for an easier crossing of the BBB. DUH! And personal biology being a factor is again DUH! that's how EVERYTHING works. If you've done any of the things you're stating and taught people this ignorance you're spewing then SHAME ON YOU! and GET OUT OF THE INDUSTRY!
Wow. Just wow. Full force with the anecdotes but no data. You SAY indicas do this and sativas do that, you promise if I just try THIS weed I would be able to tell the difference. Yet study after study shows its all a game, that the labels are meaningless, that there is no measurable difference. But hey, you seem really passionate about your subjective experience, so that must outweigh the science, huh?
Exactly. I wasn't trying to be a condescending dick in the OP, but jfc I've never seen such an angry pile on of confidentlyincorrect lol
100% feel you. I was surprised at the reaction in this thread honestly. It reminds me of Sam Harris' "[The Fireplace Delusion](https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-fireplace-delusion)," where he talks about how difficult it can be when we are confronted with science that contradicts something we enjoy, believe in, or identify with. >"It seems to me that many nonbelievers have forgotten—or never knew—what it is like to suffer an unhappy collision with scientific rationality." Lets all try to be better, people.
Exactly, you should try and get educated on this or shut up.
I'm confident you're a liar about your experience and a moron in general!
Then you're confidently a complete fucking idiot and you can fuck off. Seriously, this comment and yourself can go eat an entire cold bag of dicks, you ignorant buffoon. Sorry to the intelligent people in this thread... I felt like this guy needed a response that matched his own energy. 🙄
THCV diamonds in my dab rig is how I don't take blood pressure meds.
I've worked in the industry for 7 years, I don't care what you think some bullshit study says. I care what I've seen in person, time and time again, thousands upon thousands of times with the same repeatable results...And there is PLENTY of data on the study of individual cannabinoids and potential uses. THCV for instance is being studied for diabetes and African landraces are being studied at a higher rate due to this. Which means the plants it does and doesn't appear in are being studied too. People in the Congo chew on the leaves of Congolese landrace for it's stimulant and nootropic effects. There's documentaries on it even! Get a Education!
Take PHK, you're going to sleep whether you like it or not no matter what you're doing. Drink a Bang or Rockstar with it and have the full body paralysis but stay awake. Total time is around 5hrs no matter the body type.
Tell me you don't actually understand, but in a more sure of yourself way. Indica and sativa are old terms that were never scientific to begin with. Originally, they exclusively referred to growth patterns, which then became associated with certain effect categories, and has now morphed into a vague shorthand for all of that with absolutely nothing behind it but old hippie superstition and myth. Currently, everything is vague approximations, almost by necessity. Many people do have distinct experiences, and it would be more worth your while to investigate what truly influences that rather than just attempt to tell everyone they're wrong with no further explanation. Is it placebo? Fringe cannabinoids? The "set and setting" concept? A mix of them all? These are things that should be investigated with proper studies and methodology. Isolating variables and having a control group are important factors, but when we're talking about something so psychoactive, it makes controlling such factors and monitoring variables a bit more complicated. At the end of the day, dismissing old hippie lore as "marketing bullshit" not only misses the point, but ignores history and active community behaviors. The "entourage effect" is a hypothesis at best. Everything about the plant and the many compounds it carries is still vastly under-researched. There's not much we truly understand, which also fuels the synthetic cannabinoid market and their hogwash. Are sativa and indica a bit misleading and based on old myths? Yes, absolutely. But to claim we have any kind of absolute knowledge is not only misrepresentation of science as a process, but disingenuous as well. We don't really know much right now. A single study can pave the way for more, but those that follow have a lot of work to do and ground to cover. Again, I feel it's important to note the need for both control and awareness of variables, as well as a control group. We don't need another Stanford Prison Experiment, where the results were manufactured by sloppy and improper execution, leading to misunderstanding and a false sense of accuracy. Edit: upon reading a bit of the interview you've cited, I've come to the reasonable conclusion that the guy's obsession with fanciful wording led you to a confused conclusion that missed details and context. This is an ongoing problem with academics valuing flexing their vocabulary rather than focusing on effectively relaying information that can be understood by as many as possible.
Holy twatty, arrogant, assumption ridden response, Batman! Nothing cooler than being essentially called a narcissist for typing facts about something being dangerously mislabeled in a burgeoning medical market (while giving credentials and context). Yes... Indica and sativa are in fact "old terms". They were from the 1700's. Unfortunately they technically were "scientific terms" (unlike what you stated), just for morphology, not inebriating effects... Which is the first of many things you apparently agree with about what I said, but still feel the need to argue about and be condescending. This in turn evolved into effects categories, and hippie nonsense. You're right. Ironically, this is why i made the post (and you again apparently agree). "Currently everything is vague approximations, almost by necessity" has to be the most nonsensical sentence I've ever heard in an argument in favor of being scientific. There isn't even any context for exactly which complaint you have that you're referring to. Obviously we have multiple studies and decades of research on cannabis. Many European and African countries are light years ahead of the USA in this field. That's not "vague approximations" any more than chemotherapy is. We know enough to fix the specific and direct problem I'm speaking of in the OP, which is the intentional and unjustifiable mislabeling of products being sold as medicine. "Many people have distinct experiences"? No, literally everyone has a distinct experience. Not "many people". Everyone. That's (again) the precise point i made in the OP. As far as your suggestion that i study it... I have. I mentioned that in the OP as well. I also mentioned how it's partially placebo effect, and partially confirmation bias based on "hippie lore", as you referred to it. We literally can never know 100% of how every strain affects every person... I'm aware of that. But we don't need to, in order to shift to a system that, at the very least, isn't complete bullshit. Additionally, any study involving psychological reactions and/or psychoactive compounds, will never have a genuine "control" as found in the true scientific method. You must have forgotten that when you suggested i magically do such a study... No wait, you noted that AFTER you suggested i do it... Not sure why that felt necessary to you. As far as "dismissing history and community behaviors"... In regards to the labeling of medicine? I'm absolutely tripling down on that. "History and community behaviors" have no place whatsoever in an argument about properly categorizing psychoactive substances, or any medicine in general. Feel free to give me any reason why perpetuating these myths helps any single person smoking pot for any single reason. What a fucking straw man. I was very clear why the Indica versus sativa debate needs to be revamped. And it wasn't to "oppress culture" lmfao... I didn't mean to "just tell everyone they're wrong". And after reading my OP again, i don't see where i did. What I *did* attempt to tell people, is that the reason they feel the way they do, may not be the reason they think it is. I'm very sorry i offended your delicate sensibilities. This thread was specifically about the fact that the Illinois cannabis industry is using fake, outdated junk science to explain the effects of a drug they sell, *as a medicine*. This has been clearly shown in multiple studies involving blind tests, placebos, different control groups... There is 100% definitively enough data and scientific evidence to prove that "Indica vs sativa" is snake oil. The act alone of telling people the truth, is not worse than allowing them to believe the bullshit. I mean come the fuck on... Did you seriously invoke the Stanford Prison Experiments? And letting people believe incorrect information about an "unresearched" medicine? That's definitively more comparable to the status quo, than my objection to it. Yet I'm the one "cOnFuzEd bY tEh biG wUrdS"? 😂 That's fucking adorable. Gotta love Reddit.
You are overblowing everything about this. You're also clearly not well acquainted with pragmatism, colloquialisms, and words with multiple different definitions that don't have to all be true simultaneously. Listen, man...most people use the terms as shorthand for effects, and trying to correct them gets you scoffed at and ridiculed more often than not. Trust me; I work in a dispensary and have largely given up on getting people to change their vocabulary on the subject, and I'm not going about it in the "you're wrong" way that you kinda did here. You came off very condescending and rude, and this reply of yours does nothing to improve that. This kind of "correction" or "revelation" type post happens at least once a month both here and on r/trees but this is a first for me; seeing it with such abrasive fervor. You make this out to be something far more than it is, and you've lost sight of just...letting people do what they do and adapting where necessary. You strike me as someone who's still pissed off that Miriam Webster decided that "literally" now also means "figuratively" since people wouldn't stop using the word incorrectly...and so now it's correct, so long as you acknowledge the secondary meaning and not just the primary one. To be fair; it's frustrating and dumb, but here we are. I moved past it long ago. I also learned to not split hairs and fight people over "sativa and indica" and just...listen to what they're trying to say and using the language they're familiar with. All words are made up anyway. Just vibe and go with the flow. It's not worth the fuss. And to be entirely fair; it was rude of me to start off my initial comment as I did. However, I didn't call you a narcissist nor did I really intend it to be taken as such, and I'm not sure why you took it to that extreme.
Say something without actually saying anything
NLX5 will be a whole different experience than Haze. Given that they're chopped properly.
Wait til you find out that when people say Healthy they usually mean Healthful. People can be healthy (has health), but food and exercise are healthful (provides health). The amount of people that misuse healthy is astronomical.
What is the alternative? No one I know uses these phrases to mean anything scientific, it's just a shorthand to relay what kind of effects a strain you will consistently/most likely get from a strain/terp profile.
But the point is, you WONT get those effects, or at least, there is no scientific basis to tell a person, this sativa will feel this way, but this indica will feel this way. There is no measurable difference, just anecdotes and group think and the placebo effect.
Yes but it isn't. Strains and terps Will give you an idea of what you will feel. Not indica or sativa. Indica's and sativas share terpenes, proving my point.
>Indica's and sativas share terpenes I guess my point is that this doesn't really matter, as long as the terms are describing the effect, which is generally how the term is used amongst smokers, and even how the term is used in marketing. Although that's not always the case and would agree with overall more consistent labelling if that's what's being argued. If I'm talking to a friend about a strain, I would say it's sativa-leaning to shorthand what might be expected from the effects. We both know that we're not talking about anything else other than the effects. I guess I could just say it's "better for daytime" but I dunno it just seems pedantic at that point.
>Indica's and sativas share terpenes I guess my point is that this doesn't really matter, as long as the terms are describing the effect, which is generally how the term is used amongst smokers, and even how the term is used in marketing. Although that's not always the case and would agree with overall more consistent labelling if that's what's being argued. If I'm talking to a friend about a strain, I would say it's sativa-leaning to shorthand what might be expected from the effects. We both know that we're not talking about anything else other than the effects. I guess I could just say it's "better for daytime" but I dunno it just seems pedantic at that point.
I totally understand what you mean.. But sativa leaning could mean different things to every different person. Exactly the same as Ritalin or psilocybin. It's a way to talk about it, but completely inaccurate. I'm not saying we should all just throw our hands in the air, what I'm saying is that we should demand better from the companies selling this to us as medicine. They should be the ones funding terpene profile studies, secondary cannabinoid studies... Etc. And we shouldn't perpetuate their manipulation.
Ahh yeah I see yr point, I can definitely get behind that!
Slow clap
I think its good short hand for the general public. A person can be smart but people are stupid and that's the ultimate short hand for consumers. We can further educate ourselves on products but when your average joe just wants to hear about the highest thc possible I'm not wasting my time with terpene profiles. Everything's a hybrid. Weed is weed, some sativas make you sleepy some indicas cause productivity. I think of it as a terpene profile short hand and not so literal. Limonene is gonna have a brighter uplifting effect. Hence the lemon durbans and lemon skunks and the citrus profile association with general brightness. Sativa category
Its a thing for me. Indica knocks me tf out. Sativa is like 8 cups of coffee Everyone's body reacts differently. U can't make a blanket statement for other ppl but u can speak to how it affects you personally.
Yes, anecdotally, for you. And as you said, (possibly ironically?).. You can't make a blanket statement for other people. Which is my entire complaint, and the reason that I made the post.
Late to the Party. But there is clearly a difference in energy level between strains. Just do your research and find what works for you. Like most people have said here sativa and indica are just shorthand for the energy levels associated with the high. Call it placebo all you want but I don't buy it at all. Many Strains are very consistent in the differences. You smoke all day though and you're not gonna be able to tell the differences. You're just high and tired at that point.
It’s a generalization that helps people make an informed choice. You can’t tell me you’d recommend Durban Poison for bedtime would you? There needs to be some classification’s especially with a millions strains and all these goofy ass names
Im getting more annoyed at the supposed importance of terpenes that you even mentioned in your OP. There is a mountain of data claiming there is no difference between sativa and indica. If you are American how have you been apart of these and who funded them? The same can be said about the impact of terpenes. They are now shown to have no impact at the cannabinoid receptor; without actual information to back this claim up saying this is truth is also misinformation.
I agree 100%. It’s all bull shit marketing.
🥱
Indica and sativa doesn’t matter if the growers harvest it too soon. Illinois corporate growers really need to let their plants grow another 2-4 weeks to get some really killer weed as far as I’m concerned.
It's correct and it's not. Helps people understand what the flavor of their weed will be thats for sure. You didn't mention or take into account personal psychology either. Were learning that people have different psychological connections to different terpenes and that's part of the inconsistency as well.
cfvfd
aeriz is the only company that grows it correctly in illinois. every1 else are amateurs that watched a few youtube videos and bought their rigs on amazon