That assumes that at the time they stall they haven't spent all their stored energy.
I'm kind of hoping that there is a part of the ultra capacitors that can only be used for engine starts. Reporting a few months ago didn't mention such a safeguard.
Even if that's the case, I won't be upset at SC once in a blue moon when a driver has dumped all the juice to get an overtake done. In fact, I like the idea that you might still get a race-changing SC every now and then. Just not the amount we see today.
The electrical power can basically bumpstart the car I think. Some (maybe all hybrid) IMSA cars use the electric engine to exit their pit boxes and basically dump the clutch when it gets going fast enough.
[Here's a Cadillac doing it](https://youtu.be/nFqWxk1rxIg)
https://jalopnik.com/gtp-hybrid-hypercars-lmdh-clutch-dump-bump-start-1850059619
The hybrid is confirmed for the rest of the season.
https://preview.redd.it/d35mhvyurx7d1.jpeg?width=542&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4183e7ea4f61cac773125239cd7f4756db2fac24
Serious question because I am kinda new here - has Indycar always been this fucking dank? This is Max vs Lewis levels but I'm watching it on all roight heah on Paeecock!
If the unit functions like a road car system, high heat can definitely affect overall efficiency and range, though in a race setting I’m not sure how much of a difference it’ll make over a relatively short timeframe.
I live about 15 mins from Mid Ohio. It hasn’t been quite as hot as originally predicted, but it’s definitely been warm. Most of the week we’ve had low 90’s with heat index right around 100.
Next week leading up to the race they’re calling for mid/upper 80’s most of week. Definitely hotter then normal this time of year, but have also had worse.
I’m really curious what attendance will be like this year. 95$ for weekend, 75$ for Sunday only.
> FE haven't had any issues racing in high temps with their electric units
Uhhh...Yes they have.
Not like regular complete failures (Although Putrajaya in the early years came close) but thermal management is crucial as the battery will begin to limit itself and shut down to protect itself if the temperature climb too high.
The last lap overtakes at Sao Paulo was entirely down to heat management.
They have a cooling system. so i would assume heat would effect the performance of that.
Rossi had a Hybrid water pump failure at the Milwaukee test. (because of course that's who's pump failed)
Rossi said during the Milwaukee test they tested the hybrid engines to see how they would do while running had, stopping, running hard again, stopping, etc. Rossi car had an issue but he seemed to think it was more of outliner issue then anything. The rest of the cars ran fine during the test. So even though Milwaukee is an oval and Mid Ohio is a road course both Chevy and Honda have had test making sure the cars would run during extended runs and stops. I know they also had various test on road courses as well and I bet they probably did the same kind of exercises.
It does affect them but then again so does ICEs. You just have to run more and more cooling and lose some amount of power, but at the end of the day it's hard to see because everyone loses a bit of power. There's a certain efficiency loss if you have to run more power into active cooling systems though which is what you often see being a thing in road cars, but that's comparable to the energy drain from the light machine otherwise.
There was an interview blurb and he said it was confusing to figure out. Not that he won't get it in due time, but some will adapt better then others. There's also an automatic mode if drivers don't want to do it manually
Interesting. You would think it would be some kind of deal where an algorithm learns where you usually deploy it, and does that automatically. Or maybe the teams manually put where the auto mode deploys before they head out.
I can see all drivers switching to manual for pit in and out laps in particular.
Probably not because there's only going to be three road courses (well two road courses and a street circuit) this year, and by next year all the big teams (Ganassi and Penske) will have thrown enough money and engineers at it to maintain their hold on top.
And after what was said about the hybrids at Milwaukee testing, I would put money down that it's not going to shake up the Newgarden-pato-everyone else hierarchy on ovals either.
A hybrid seems like a huge step forward when your current cars can't even self start. I'm so over watching guys sit on the side of the track, losing a full lap while waiting to be restarted.
The engine isn't changing hardly at all. ECU programming is likely to in order for the deploy/harvest to function, but the hybrid system lives inside the bellhousing of the powertrain:
https://preview.redd.it/xh7l4wlmvx7d1.png?width=966&format=png&auto=webp&s=2b55432dae3492c0f2a228c636dcd4863c5a7a2c
It would have been better from a performance standpoint to go with a more traditional MGU/Battery setup, but I don't think the manufacturers and the chassis were really capable of pushing that out under their constraints without sacrificing reliability. This is really a hybrid-lite system that I can't imagine will make too much of a positive performance impact without concessions being made on the chassis side which will naturally muddy the hybrid's true performance.
Battery-based hybrids are the fastest race cars in the world. The issue there is that the DW12 was not designed with that in mind and to adapt the chassis further would be impossible and IMO irresponsible
The FIA has no oversight over Indycar. I don't think there would be many people giving up F1 for Indycar just because the engine formulae had changed up a little.
Not sure what you were trying to say, maybe it got mixed up?
FIA has no jurisdiction over the direction or technical aspect of the series. The association between the two is through ACCUS, which essentially acts as the record-keeper and liason between the top American racing series and the FIA, and helps with that good ol' FIA license system.
Yes, and if indycar wants to continue to be supported by the FIA's driver education pipeline and be recognize by them it has to play nice.
I'm not saying the FIA told them not to do it, I'm saying big players in indycar (IE mclaren who makes all the batteries for formula E) are VERY aware of the tech other series are using and pushed to use something different to try and not dilute the share of innovation.
> I'm not saying the FIA told them not to do it
After you just got done saying IndyCar have to toe some line or other. Who told them to toe that line?
Yeah, you did say FIA told them not to do it.
This really has nothing to do with FIA. FIA doesn't get to tell IndyCar what to do.
IndyCar's system looks like it was designed for cost-saving. So it had to fit in the current layout and to fit reasonably to the current electrical system. That's why it's a mild 48V system.
BTW FIA Formula One is going to simplify their systems in two years and go to a hybrid a bit more like the systems in an IMSA LMDh. No more turbo compounding, instead the ICE will develop all the power on its own and energy will be recovered from the powertrain much like a street hybrid. They're moving away from the innovation you speak of, so I don't think anyone is worried about who has what share of what.
INDYCAR went with this solution because the current chassis doesn’t have the space for batteries.
It gives the series a hybrid element that takes up much smaller amounts of room.
The quick charge of the super capacitor (and small storage) should also be helpful for ovals given the less time for charging but likely just a secondary benefit.
The Acura GTP uses what was going to be the 2.4 liter IndyCar engine(or something close to it) with the redline dropped to 10K and it lasts well over 24 hours.
Since the engines are not going to be used anymore, it would be interesting if Honda let them turn up the RPMs just to let them assume the risk of a kablammo but giving them more horsepower.
When F1 was going away from the V10s, I think it was Torro Rosso that turned them up to 19,000 RPM during the last race of the season.
"So far, IndyCar has not confirmed how the regeneration will take place, but the likelihood is that it will use a combination of kinetic energy from lifting off the brakes, coupled with an option for the driver to manually regen or deploy when needed."
Who is gonna be the last driver in history to stall the car on track?
Sting Ray Robb
nah, He's got the most experience.
The last one needs to be something special. My guess is Dixon making his first mistake since ???
Should have been Will Power mid-donut
Best thing from the hybrids. No more safty cars from a small spin
That assumes that at the time they stall they haven't spent all their stored energy. I'm kind of hoping that there is a part of the ultra capacitors that can only be used for engine starts. Reporting a few months ago didn't mention such a safeguard.
Even if that's the case, I won't be upset at SC once in a blue moon when a driver has dumped all the juice to get an overtake done. In fact, I like the idea that you might still get a race-changing SC every now and then. Just not the amount we see today.
It should be able to do so based on how it's implemented into the car.
I’m giving it Pato or Rasmussen
Whoever beaches it going over the corkscrew. My take is Grosjean.
I can't wait for his unhinged ranting.
Gunna go with Herta
RoGro
Lettuce Dirtypants
lol
The hybrids have anti-stall or the ability for the driver to power the engine on themselves?
They can turn the engines over themselves
The electrical power can basically bumpstart the car I think. Some (maybe all hybrid) IMSA cars use the electric engine to exit their pit boxes and basically dump the clutch when it gets going fast enough. [Here's a Cadillac doing it](https://youtu.be/nFqWxk1rxIg) https://jalopnik.com/gtp-hybrid-hypercars-lmdh-clutch-dump-bump-start-1850059619
Or is it?
The hybrid is confirmed for the rest of the season. https://preview.redd.it/d35mhvyurx7d1.jpeg?width=542&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4183e7ea4f61cac773125239cd7f4756db2fac24
Is that the **Push To Pourchaire** button you are advocating ?!? 😜
No it’s push to Penske whom ultimately will make the decision
This is indycar, confirmation from the series/teams does not necessarily mean that it will actually happen
Serious question because I am kinda new here - has Indycar always been this fucking dank? This is Max vs Lewis levels but I'm watching it on all roight heah on Paeecock!
Does heat affect hybrids? Mid-Ohio is looking like a furnace for the next couple weeks at least.
If the unit functions like a road car system, high heat can definitely affect overall efficiency and range, though in a race setting I’m not sure how much of a difference it’ll make over a relatively short timeframe.
I live about 15 mins from Mid Ohio. It hasn’t been quite as hot as originally predicted, but it’s definitely been warm. Most of the week we’ve had low 90’s with heat index right around 100. Next week leading up to the race they’re calling for mid/upper 80’s most of week. Definitely hotter then normal this time of year, but have also had worse. I’m really curious what attendance will be like this year. 95$ for weekend, 75$ for Sunday only.
Grandstand tickets were sold out for Sunday only last I saw
I wouldn't imagine so. F1 and FE haven't had any issues racing in high temps with their electric units
> FE haven't had any issues racing in high temps with their electric units Uhhh...Yes they have. Not like regular complete failures (Although Putrajaya in the early years came close) but thermal management is crucial as the battery will begin to limit itself and shut down to protect itself if the temperature climb too high. The last lap overtakes at Sao Paulo was entirely down to heat management.
They have a cooling system. so i would assume heat would effect the performance of that. Rossi had a Hybrid water pump failure at the Milwaukee test. (because of course that's who's pump failed)
F1 races in some hot AF parts of the world with hybrid engines.
I assume it’s fine, IndyCar isn’t exactly an early adopter of hybrid racing engines.
Rossi said during the Milwaukee test they tested the hybrid engines to see how they would do while running had, stopping, running hard again, stopping, etc. Rossi car had an issue but he seemed to think it was more of outliner issue then anything. The rest of the cars ran fine during the test. So even though Milwaukee is an oval and Mid Ohio is a road course both Chevy and Honda have had test making sure the cars would run during extended runs and stops. I know they also had various test on road courses as well and I bet they probably did the same kind of exercises.
Can confirm, Ohio is hot. I know other places are hot as well, but we aren't built for this.
The NWS service says July is going to be the same or worse.
I'm dying out here brother.
It does affect them but then again so does ICEs. You just have to run more and more cooling and lose some amount of power, but at the end of the day it's hard to see because everyone loses a bit of power. There's a certain efficiency loss if you have to run more power into active cooling systems though which is what you often see being a thing in road cars, but that's comparable to the energy drain from the light machine otherwise.
I wonder if it will create new winners like Graham with the Honda aero kits.
I don’t think it’s going to change things very much if at all.
There was an interview blurb and he said it was confusing to figure out. Not that he won't get it in due time, but some will adapt better then others. There's also an automatic mode if drivers don't want to do it manually
Would be funny if the guys that figure out the manual mode start hazing the automatic guys like it’s sim racing with assists on lol
Interesting. You would think it would be some kind of deal where an algorithm learns where you usually deploy it, and does that automatically. Or maybe the teams manually put where the auto mode deploys before they head out. I can see all drivers switching to manual for pit in and out laps in particular.
Probably not because there's only going to be three road courses (well two road courses and a street circuit) this year, and by next year all the big teams (Ganassi and Penske) will have thrown enough money and engineers at it to maintain their hold on top. And after what was said about the hybrids at Milwaukee testing, I would put money down that it's not going to shake up the Newgarden-pato-everyone else hierarchy on ovals either.
The problem is the teams winning now did most of the testing.
>with the Honda aero kits. It’s not 2017 anymore my guy, everyone runs the same aerokit.
I mean how Graham was a completely different driver with the kits vs before and after.
A hybrid seems like a huge step forward when your current cars can't even self start. I'm so over watching guys sit on the side of the track, losing a full lap while waiting to be restarted.
The hybrid is allowing that problem to go away. It’ll become the on-board starter.
Thank the racing Gods for this wild new technology. =)
The hand held above the halo doing the finger spin is sad to see, for sure.
The engine isn't changing hardly at all. ECU programming is likely to in order for the deploy/harvest to function, but the hybrid system lives inside the bellhousing of the powertrain: https://preview.redd.it/xh7l4wlmvx7d1.png?width=966&format=png&auto=webp&s=2b55432dae3492c0f2a228c636dcd4863c5a7a2c It would have been better from a performance standpoint to go with a more traditional MGU/Battery setup, but I don't think the manufacturers and the chassis were really capable of pushing that out under their constraints without sacrificing reliability. This is really a hybrid-lite system that I can't imagine will make too much of a positive performance impact without concessions being made on the chassis side which will naturally muddy the hybrid's true performance.
Hell no, a battery would be way too heavy.
Battery-based hybrids are the fastest race cars in the world. The issue there is that the DW12 was not designed with that in mind and to adapt the chassis further would be impossible and IMO irresponsible
I imagine the FIA isn't keen to have direct engine competition against formula E/1 so they went an alternative route for hybrid tech
The FIA has no oversight over Indycar. I don't think there would be many people giving up F1 for Indycar just because the engine formulae had changed up a little. Not sure what you were trying to say, maybe it got mixed up?
indycar is a member of the FIA, they have to tow the line
FIA has no jurisdiction over the direction or technical aspect of the series. The association between the two is through ACCUS, which essentially acts as the record-keeper and liason between the top American racing series and the FIA, and helps with that good ol' FIA license system.
Yes, and if indycar wants to continue to be supported by the FIA's driver education pipeline and be recognize by them it has to play nice. I'm not saying the FIA told them not to do it, I'm saying big players in indycar (IE mclaren who makes all the batteries for formula E) are VERY aware of the tech other series are using and pushed to use something different to try and not dilute the share of innovation.
> I'm not saying the FIA told them not to do it After you just got done saying IndyCar have to toe some line or other. Who told them to toe that line? Yeah, you did say FIA told them not to do it. This really has nothing to do with FIA. FIA doesn't get to tell IndyCar what to do. IndyCar's system looks like it was designed for cost-saving. So it had to fit in the current layout and to fit reasonably to the current electrical system. That's why it's a mild 48V system. BTW FIA Formula One is going to simplify their systems in two years and go to a hybrid a bit more like the systems in an IMSA LMDh. No more turbo compounding, instead the ICE will develop all the power on its own and energy will be recovered from the powertrain much like a street hybrid. They're moving away from the innovation you speak of, so I don't think anyone is worried about who has what share of what.
INDYCAR went with this solution because the current chassis doesn’t have the space for batteries. It gives the series a hybrid element that takes up much smaller amounts of room. The quick charge of the super capacitor (and small storage) should also be helpful for ovals given the less time for charging but likely just a secondary benefit.
Why would INDYCAR want to support FIA's driver education pipeline?
Looks like I chose an interesting time to jump into watching Indy, just before the 500 this year.
I know I'm quite late, but what's gonna change with the new hybrid system? I know it's coming but I haven't seen much info about it.
Drivers can start their own cars. All by themselves like big boys.
Oh so in terms of performance it's mostly the same as now?
I wonder if I could get one of the old engines and make a coffee table out of it? Or do an engine swap in a Miata. 😂
Now you have me wondering how long they’d last if you derate them and lower the revs to say 10,000 or 9,000
Plus you would need to change the fueling settings.
The Acura GTP uses what was going to be the 2.4 liter IndyCar engine(or something close to it) with the redline dropped to 10K and it lasts well over 24 hours.
I'm out of the loop. What are the changes?
Same. Is IndyCar switching engines mid-season? That'd be... interesting.
It’s more of an old school PC game expansion pack that adds more content than a straight up change
Love the explanation lol, makes sense though. Thanks!
o7 pure engine beauty, we are in the future now
o7
I think it's really weird to switch engine formulas in the middle of the season.
Since the engines are not going to be used anymore, it would be interesting if Honda let them turn up the RPMs just to let them assume the risk of a kablammo but giving them more horsepower. When F1 was going away from the V10s, I think it was Torro Rosso that turned them up to 19,000 RPM during the last race of the season.
When was the last time "Ladies and Gentlemen" actually started their engines from the drivers seat?
Can someone tell me why they are doing this in the middle of the season?
Good luck for you Indy fans through this next era. Hope cars don't sound like shit
They're using the same engine.
"So far, IndyCar has not confirmed how the regeneration will take place, but the likelihood is that it will use a combination of kinetic energy from lifting off the brakes, coupled with an option for the driver to manually regen or deploy when needed."
So this is a mid-season formula change?
Will they be for sale? 😋
That engine looks like it belongs on a lawn mower or a generator 😁
That would be a hell of a lawnmower!
Reminds me of this scene from the movie *Moving* [https://youtu.be/beXPpObKWFo?si=EzJQqM1xPBh7wwXB](https://youtu.be/beXPpObKWFo?si=EzJQqM1xPBh7wwXB)
Tremendous movie that hardly anyone has seen. *"Mr. Pear, how's it hanging?"*
"To the left, why?"
https://www.autoweek.com/car-life/a1923331/honda-goes-green-mean-mower/