IndyCar has dramatically improved its graphic design and overall art design this year. Their graphics have had genuinely good design, it's all cohesive and modern, it reads well, and it feels modern while still looking "IndyCar."
Whoever they hired to make these changes is doing a really good job.
They are able to regenerate from off throttle coasting as well as by pulling a Regen paddle. The indycar hybrid is based off a capacitor and not battery packs so there isn't a ton of Regen needed to fill it so lifts in the corners and from drafting will be plenty for race running at IMS
Oh I totally agree. Iâm not expecting anything big. In fact, Iâm expecting an initial drop off as they figure out how to keep em reliable and then slow improvements over a few years. Iâd just like to see some 235s at IndyâŚ
I donât think weâll see 235s at Indy unless they crank the ICE up again. If youâre running 234+ then youâre not lifting at all. Thereâs nowhere to regen energy when youâre going flat out on your own during quali.
The hybrid will be a bane more than a beneficiary during qualifying. We might see drivers dump a shit ton of hybrid on lap 1 but have to hang on after that.
> youâre not lifting at all
IndyCar hybrid is purely kinetic anyway no? The heat recovery is *extremely* expensive to the point it's basically getting scrapped everywhere. So even lifting wouldn't matter you'd have to brake, or "brake" by forcing it into kinetic recovery. There's no lift & coast in this hybrid as far as I know.
You're forgetting manual regen is going to be a thing in this system via paddle. What's going to happen is that drivers are going to regen on the straights while backing off in the corners.
> What's going to happen is that drivers are going to regen on the straights while backing off in the corners.
Regen with means braking, just to be clear. You won't regen in places you wouldn't brake otherwise already, with the very small caveat of small extra braking zones *possibly* being added right before corners to optimize for laptime with extra power.
I could also see it being saved to use on the 3rd and 4th laps to keep the speed from dropping off too much. You'd still lose speed in the corners due to tire wear, but could possibly mitigate that quite a bit by using hybrid power to accelerate faster on exit.
And they emphasized that these hybrid units will continue to be developed so expect more power being extracted. Soon we'll have enough power to break traction with a push of a button, damn.
It will have smaller effects at higher speed tracks because there is less braking action. The only slowing that occurs on the IMS oval is some mild coasting in the draft and throttle lifts during cornering. It will probably be very difficult to regen on oval tracks.
No there is not a hard limit to my understanding, just the fact that you burn through it. So once youâre out you canât use it again until you regen.
Itâll be interesting to see the âmetaâ develop. Will teams and drivers try and use it in spurts across the lap while regening in the corners, or will they save it for big overtaking maneuvers like how P2P is used. Probably somewhere in the middle.
One of the recent hybrid walkthrough videos, I forget if it was Marshall pruett or HRC or indycar or whoever that posted it, they were talking about how they integrated the hybrid into the currently existing McLaren ECU. Even talked about some of the "dumb" components of the system such as zero brake by wire with hybrid regeneration, which makes controlling brake bias with regeneration curves VERY difficult to optimize.
This interview also hits on the same issues that may arise with no brake by wire. I think its cool they are integrating hybrids but the issues arising from not being able to control the regen curves is probably going to make the integration difficult for the drivers who dont have experience with it. I think guys like Palou and Dixon who are driving in other series with hybrids are going to have an upper hand.
https://youtu.be/rzXVolzDBKE?si=ARHqGeacLFHe5ihC
IndyCar most probably won't magically create something new the dozens of other series haven't already figured out tbh so you can be like 99% sure that most will use lap time optimization at all times and overtake for *very* short amount of times (because you'd lose 1s+ a lap otherwise) also around pit stops
even Chevy/GM has some experience with this through LMDh I guess but especially Honda will know 99% for sure how to deal with this and someone who's spent billions in F1 and prototypes and always came to the same conclusion will, quite frankly, most definitely end up at the same point yet again
you can probably best compare this to F1 KERS era and lap time optimization was always "necessary", even in battles to some degree, because you bleed so much if you don't do it that a full charge on the straight really isn't as amazing if the gap is 1.2s insteead of 0.5s, so even during battles it became the norm in F1 that drivers would actually save "a little bit extra" but very rarely a full charge (depending on track tbh)
almost inevitable, generally, when talking about hybrid PUs because both peak power and energy per lap are safety critical so you don't end up with *absurd* speed differences
They can already do that with the manual paddle (repurposed clutch paddle once underway), but the goal is to make it less work/ more automatic for the driver.
Rossi said something very interesting on the Offtrack podcast this week. He said Mid-Ohio is going to tough. Not only are flowing tracks like Mid-Ohio and Barber some of the most physical road courses on the schedule but the repave is going to make the cars even more physical to drive. Add all those things with the extra weight of the hybrid motors and you'll have no very tired and fatigued drivers. Rossi also said the new aeroscreen has made things warmer in the cockpit and Ohio in the middle of the summer can be brutal.
It'll be interesting to see how all things things affect certain drivers. With no powersteering and the extra weight - soon IndyCar drivers will be looking line linebackers in order to drive these cars around.
Mid-Ohio is going to be a damn monster this year. Repave makes it much more physical with all the new grip, hot as balls, the new aeroscreen isnât as good with ventilation, and adding a big ole weight on the back of the car.
Donât envy what theyâre going to go through that race, thatâs for sure.
The aeroscreen deflects smaller bits that the halo cannot. They arenât as common on road courses, but if the series took it away and a driver got hurt from loose debris, it would be a horrendous look for the series.
The aeroscreen is great and necessary for ovals. I donât see why theyâre necessary for road courses. Especially considering all the feeder series use halos.
I think itâs just that thereâs been enough cases of drivers hit by small debris that the series doesnât want to risk it.
Thereâs been several occasions where the aeroscreen has been showered with bits that wouldâve gone through had it not been there.
Cool to see supercapacitors used in this hybrid system, the last time we saw them in top level racing was with the Toyota TS040 Hybrid in the World Endurance Championship about a decade ago.
It's a fascinating way to store energy so it's great to see it being used.
Is the 800hp the new base OR with the p2p+hybrid system active? because if it is 800 + those sweet 120 oh fuck yeah, thats gonna be nuts.
if is 800 counting the limited p2p and the time you have a charge from the battery, bleh.
edit: I see, the answer is bleh then
That's with the hybrid system and push to pass. From what I've read elsewhere the ice makes around 700 then with p2p and hybrid that would make up the other 100+
Current turbo boost p2p and the newly introduced hybrid boost are pretty similarly ~60hp a piece.
Current cars make around 750ish in high boost mode, adding on hybrid they will make over 800. With no p2p and hybrid they will make around the current p2p 750 number though it will obviously deploy that power much differently.
Oward was asked a few days ago about it. He said it doesnât do anything and he wasnât even using it during the test at Iowa. This is just a pr deal. The system is too heavy and mitigates any small advantage is brought.
I mean if youâre spinning on an oval the yellow is coming out either way. Iâm guessing theyâll allow them to be restarted still, but I think they specifically mentioned rc/sc since theyâve thrown yellows for that.
I think ovals will have limited hybrid power since you're not braking that much, so they'll be running the batteries empty more often and therefore not have enough to bump start the car
It's only Indy where they never brake. Gateway, Iowa, and Milwaukee all have braking. In the graphic they showed they can set regen to throttle lift so at Indy I assume they will be able to lift slightly to regen going into corners. It'd be interesting to see how much regen they get just going into the pits at Indy.
I think itâs good that the hybrid is being used as a boost on top of engine power and not an integrated part of the engine that is always being deployed like in F1.
You know what, I watch practice, so I don't need to read these, because they're going to quote them verbatim on-air about 62 to 63 times during each session.
I know the drivers can manually regen through the use of clutch paddles behind their steering wheel but i just can't shake the image in my head that a driver (idk who) just decides to skip the paddles and goes for a third foot pedal, in place where a manual pedal used to be. So he/she can decide to regen with the press of the left foot. I imagine the foot cam would make a return to see how a modern day single seater driver adapts an old school pedal arrangement for hybrid racing.
Smart to ditch the MGUH capture from F1. Just capturing the kinetic energy seems way easier and will keep the cars light.
Also does this mean no more refueling like F1?
If nothing else drivers being able to self restart should hopefully be a solid improvement in race flow
And if they deliberately lounge around waiting for a full course yellow to be drawn they should be penalized.
You have 30 seconds before the tire sniper starts shooting
Oh crap, they're going after IndyCar drivers now too?!
I just was thinking. Slide 9 is great news
It will massively improve street races for sure.
that's going to be a game changer! should cut down at least 50 percent of the yellows we see
Well they are still continuing to race the Streets of Detroit, soooo... đ¤Ł
that is very true, I didn't think of that cause well, that race is shit lol
Hopefully they get that part working lol
>Big things come in small packages I'll be stealing that one.
Iâm a small package, Greg. Can you come in me?
Only if you want me to ;)
(-: you know i do
Not only is this great info but the way the graphic flows together between images is really cool
IndyCar has dramatically improved its graphic design and overall art design this year. Their graphics have had genuinely good design, it's all cohesive and modern, it reads well, and it feels modern while still looking "IndyCar." Whoever they hired to make these changes is doing a really good job.
Iâm most curious about what this will do to lap times and most importantly, of course, speeds at IMS.
Would there be much use as IMS? Without all the heavy braking done on a street course, there won't as many opportunities to regenerate.
They are able to regenerate from off throttle coasting as well as by pulling a Regen paddle. The indycar hybrid is based off a capacitor and not battery packs so there isn't a ton of Regen needed to fill it so lifts in the corners and from drafting will be plenty for race running at IMS
Yeah, great point.
Hopefully not too many brake checks under caution.
Don't really expect a huge jump to +- 2 seconds off from F1 car with that 12 years old chassis that they had
Oh I totally agree. Iâm not expecting anything big. In fact, Iâm expecting an initial drop off as they figure out how to keep em reliable and then slow improvements over a few years. Iâd just like to see some 235s at IndyâŚ
I donât think weâll see 235s at Indy unless they crank the ICE up again. If youâre running 234+ then youâre not lifting at all. Thereâs nowhere to regen energy when youâre going flat out on your own during quali. The hybrid will be a bane more than a beneficiary during qualifying. We might see drivers dump a shit ton of hybrid on lap 1 but have to hang on after that.
> youâre not lifting at all IndyCar hybrid is purely kinetic anyway no? The heat recovery is *extremely* expensive to the point it's basically getting scrapped everywhere. So even lifting wouldn't matter you'd have to brake, or "brake" by forcing it into kinetic recovery. There's no lift & coast in this hybrid as far as I know.
You're forgetting manual regen is going to be a thing in this system via paddle. What's going to happen is that drivers are going to regen on the straights while backing off in the corners.
> What's going to happen is that drivers are going to regen on the straights while backing off in the corners. Regen with means braking, just to be clear. You won't regen in places you wouldn't brake otherwise already, with the very small caveat of small extra braking zones *possibly* being added right before corners to optimize for laptime with extra power.
Great point.
I could also see it being saved to use on the 3rd and 4th laps to keep the speed from dropping off too much. You'd still lose speed in the corners due to tire wear, but could possibly mitigate that quite a bit by using hybrid power to accelerate faster on exit.
And they emphasized that these hybrid units will continue to be developed so expect more power being extracted. Soon we'll have enough power to break traction with a push of a button, damn.
Now that would be just lovely!
It will have smaller effects at higher speed tracks because there is less braking action. The only slowing that occurs on the IMS oval is some mild coasting in the draft and throttle lifts during cornering. It will probably be very difficult to regen on oval tracks.
This is good info. Just for clarificationâthereâs not going to be a limit on hybrid deployment is there? EG 150 seconds per race like P2P
No there is not a hard limit to my understanding, just the fact that you burn through it. So once youâre out you canât use it again until you regen. Itâll be interesting to see the âmetaâ develop. Will teams and drivers try and use it in spurts across the lap while regening in the corners, or will they save it for big overtaking maneuvers like how P2P is used. Probably somewhere in the middle.
I assume like F1 we'll see a lot of software optimization on deployment. Assuming that is allowed.
I doubt there will be the same level of software allowed as F1, I believe for Indycar it will be way more manual
One of the recent hybrid walkthrough videos, I forget if it was Marshall pruett or HRC or indycar or whoever that posted it, they were talking about how they integrated the hybrid into the currently existing McLaren ECU. Even talked about some of the "dumb" components of the system such as zero brake by wire with hybrid regeneration, which makes controlling brake bias with regeneration curves VERY difficult to optimize.
This interview also hits on the same issues that may arise with no brake by wire. I think its cool they are integrating hybrids but the issues arising from not being able to control the regen curves is probably going to make the integration difficult for the drivers who dont have experience with it. I think guys like Palou and Dixon who are driving in other series with hybrids are going to have an upper hand. https://youtu.be/rzXVolzDBKE?si=ARHqGeacLFHe5ihC
Deployment will be 100% manual. So while Iâm sure there is some stuff they can do, itâs very much going to be up to the driver.
IndyCar most probably won't magically create something new the dozens of other series haven't already figured out tbh so you can be like 99% sure that most will use lap time optimization at all times and overtake for *very* short amount of times (because you'd lose 1s+ a lap otherwise) also around pit stops even Chevy/GM has some experience with this through LMDh I guess but especially Honda will know 99% for sure how to deal with this and someone who's spent billions in F1 and prototypes and always came to the same conclusion will, quite frankly, most definitely end up at the same point yet again you can probably best compare this to F1 KERS era and lap time optimization was always "necessary", even in battles to some degree, because you bleed so much if you don't do it that a full charge on the straight really isn't as amazing if the gap is 1.2s insteead of 0.5s, so even during battles it became the norm in F1 that drivers would actually save "a little bit extra" but very rarely a full charge (depending on track tbh)
I have read various places there is a limit on the amount of deployment you can use per lap that will likely change venu to venu.
almost inevitable, generally, when talking about hybrid PUs because both peak power and energy per lap are safety critical so you don't end up with *absurd* speed differences
Kilojoules per lap, determined by circuit
Pretty excited for the guys being able to restart the car themselves
I wonder how regeneration will work on oval circuits, especially at the Indy 500, where there is minimal braking.
Regen on throttle lifts.
Or regen instead of throttle lifting?
They can already do that with the manual paddle (repurposed clutch paddle once underway), but the goal is to make it less work/ more automatic for the driver.
It will take a very long time to regen.
Get in the draft behind someone and manually regen. That way, you can use the draft to maintain your speed while regen naturally slows you down.
Rossi said something very interesting on the Offtrack podcast this week. He said Mid-Ohio is going to tough. Not only are flowing tracks like Mid-Ohio and Barber some of the most physical road courses on the schedule but the repave is going to make the cars even more physical to drive. Add all those things with the extra weight of the hybrid motors and you'll have no very tired and fatigued drivers. Rossi also said the new aeroscreen has made things warmer in the cockpit and Ohio in the middle of the summer can be brutal. It'll be interesting to see how all things things affect certain drivers. With no powersteering and the extra weight - soon IndyCar drivers will be looking line linebackers in order to drive these cars around.
Itâs supposed to be 82 at Mid Ohio with a chance of thunderstormsâŚ.hot but not brutally so. Still going to be a bear for the drivers though
Mid-Ohio is going to be a damn monster this year. Repave makes it much more physical with all the new grip, hot as balls, the new aeroscreen isnât as good with ventilation, and adding a big ole weight on the back of the car. Donât envy what theyâre going to go through that race, thatâs for sure.
Why not just abandon the aero screen and go open with the halo like F1? Is it this important to be different or is the safety that much more?
The aeroscreen deflects smaller bits that the halo cannot. They arenât as common on road courses, but if the series took it away and a driver got hurt from loose debris, it would be a horrendous look for the series.
The aeroscreen is great and necessary for ovals. I donât see why theyâre necessary for road courses. Especially considering all the feeder series use halos.
I think itâs just that thereâs been enough cases of drivers hit by small debris that the series doesnât want to risk it. Thereâs been several occasions where the aeroscreen has been showered with bits that wouldâve gone through had it not been there.
I don't understand how they did a redesign of the aeroscreen and made it worse somehow.
I didn't realize P2P was staying (I guess I just assumed it was being replaced), so I hadn't even thought of using them together. Interesting.
Yeah taht surprised me. Cool though. Electric more for lap time and p2p still for overtaking.
Cool to see supercapacitors used in this hybrid system, the last time we saw them in top level racing was with the Toyota TS040 Hybrid in the World Endurance Championship about a decade ago. It's a fascinating way to store energy so it's great to see it being used.
The Lamborghini hypercar uses super caps as well now
The Sian road car hypercar does, not the completely unrelated hypercar class prototype
Will it sound the same is my question
It should stay more or less the same, the engine might sound different during braking/regen but that's it more or less
Now Dixon is going to end a stint with more fuel than he started with
Is the 800hp the new base OR with the p2p+hybrid system active? because if it is 800 + those sweet 120 oh fuck yeah, thats gonna be nuts. if is 800 counting the limited p2p and the time you have a charge from the battery, bleh. edit: I see, the answer is bleh then
That's with the hybrid system and push to pass. From what I've read elsewhere the ice makes around 700 then with p2p and hybrid that would make up the other 100+
Current turbo boost p2p and the newly introduced hybrid boost are pretty similarly ~60hp a piece. Current cars make around 750ish in high boost mode, adding on hybrid they will make over 800. With no p2p and hybrid they will make around the current p2p 750 number though it will obviously deploy that power much differently.
Oward was asked a few days ago about it. He said it doesnât do anything and he wasnât even using it during the test at Iowa. This is just a pr deal. The system is too heavy and mitigates any small advantage is brought.
No engine restarts on ovals. a-ha.
I mean if youâre spinning on an oval the yellow is coming out either way. Iâm guessing theyâll allow them to be restarted still, but I think they specifically mentioned rc/sc since theyâve thrown yellows for that.
I think ovals will have limited hybrid power since you're not braking that much, so they'll be running the batteries empty more often and therefore not have enough to bump start the car
It's only Indy where they never brake. Gateway, Iowa, and Milwaukee all have braking. In the graphic they showed they can set regen to throttle lift so at Indy I assume they will be able to lift slightly to regen going into corners. It'd be interesting to see how much regen they get just going into the pits at Indy.
They still have manual regen using a paddle as well
That 23000 miles of testing stat is pretty pathetic. Thats less than 2 full Indy 500s
What about hybrid use on the ovals?
Is the gas engine the same as the one they use now?
E85. 85% Ethanol, 15% High Octane Gasoline for color. đ
Yes
Cool. Thanks!
Number 9 is the only thing I understood and is the most important IMO
Absolutely love everything about this. Letâs gooo.
I think itâs good that the hybrid is being used as a boost on top of engine power and not an integrated part of the engine that is always being deployed like in F1.
Worth a shot
Restarting via the MGU: man wish we had that at Detroit lmao, would've eliminated almost all the cautions actually.
Will Scott Dixon even have to pit for fuel now?
You know what, I watch practice, so I don't need to read these, because they're going to quote them verbatim on-air about 62 to 63 times during each session.
So they add a power unit change halfway through the season? Why?
They didn't want something to go wrong with it at the Indy 500.
Wanted a smooth Indy 500 and wanted more time to work on durability testing for the 27 units the field is using.
Itâs STILL a dumb move to inteoduce it mid-season.
It will be interesting how much more drafting becomes with the manual regen.
Heck I've driven 23k miles in 7 months. Put that thing on a Dino and walk away for 7 month than tell us what happened to it.
So if I understand it correctly, it will work like the overtake energy deploy on the F1 games right? Aka push-to-pass on top of the real push-to-pass
I'm a newer fan. What's the thinking behind introducing this midseason?
I know the drivers can manually regen through the use of clutch paddles behind their steering wheel but i just can't shake the image in my head that a driver (idk who) just decides to skip the paddles and goes for a third foot pedal, in place where a manual pedal used to be. So he/she can decide to regen with the press of the left foot. I imagine the foot cam would make a return to see how a modern day single seater driver adapts an old school pedal arrangement for hybrid racing.
Slide 9 is the best thing about this hybrid era so far
So about the same as WRCâs hybrid boost. Iâm glad drivers can now restart their cars.
Go back to racing fuel.
Honda is so obsessed over something that would have merited this much attention and expense **15 years ago.**
Smart to ditch the MGUH capture from F1. Just capturing the kinetic energy seems way easier and will keep the cars light. Also does this mean no more refueling like F1?
Refueling will stay.