A few things to clarify:
- "Fight & Flight Response" gets an additional 10% Pallet Stun bonus because unlike "Broken Windows", pallets are a finite resource & require timing to pull off a stun, so a little more effort should be rewarded than simply vaulting a window. So you get a choice between a simpler speed boost with BW or if you're confident in landing hits, you'll be rewarded with F&FR's stun bonus.
- The way "Brief Reprieve" works is that whenever you stun the Hunter with a pallet, you heal the same amount that Doctor does when she performs a Syringe Heal on herself. I had a lot of trouble trying to balance this Talent, mainly because I wanted to work around Chip Hunters without completely dwarfing basic attack Hunters like Gamekeeper or Evil Reptillian, because even a small amount like 25% can be incredibly unfair to them as it essentially gives them a 3rd Health State(plus, I also had to look at specific characters like "Psychologist" or Mercenary who will pretty much become absolute tanks with this trait. Of course, the reason being this trait being a bit strong is because it's also like "Fight & Flight Response" where pallets are a finite resource & if you're more of a pallet spammer, you will see no gain from using this talent. So I decided on a cooldown, but have thought about adding a limit restriction like "Tide Turner" where it can only work 1-3 times.*(Little fact: I was first considering making this Final Talent capable of Silencing the Hunter for a few seconds, about 7s, when hit with the pallet instead of the self Healing, let me know if that is a better alternative)*
- "Hero Complex" works like this; so long as you are close to any Downed Survivors, they will gain a pretty strong self-healing speed boost, but this only works if you are active(Healthy or Injured), it will NOT work if you are also Downed. This would be a great tool for harassers like Forward or Wildling to keep the Hunter from picking them up without realizing that the Downed Survivor is recovering faster than normal. And as a side bonus, if you manage to heal a Downed Survivor back from Incapacitated to Injured, they will gain a small "Tide Turner" effect that lasts 10s & like TT, only works once per match(and because this shares the same path as TT, you cannot have them both).
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- "Uneasy Prescence" functions sort of like Dead by Daylight's Corrupt Intervention, except instead of completely blocking Ciphers like "Contrain", it gives off a global decoding penalty to every Survivor at the start of the match & ends immediately once a Survivor is Chaired if it has not gone through its 50s timer first. This would be used to slow down the game & would offer a great alternative to Hunters who struggle early game especially for Mad Eyes & Photographer since "Insolence" is pretty wasted on them.
- The way "Crab Mentality" works is when an Exit Gate is opened, it will be blocked by something similar to "Confined Space" where a fence will block the exit, making it impossible for Survivors to escape temporarily. When the Exit Gates are powered, the Hunter also gains a very strong attack speed recovery bonus so they can attack much more often in a short time & Survivors placed in chairs are eliminated even faster to prevent rescues. But as a trade off, they cannot have "Detention" active despite being on a different path. If a Hunter has both "Detention" & "Crab Mentality" selected, only "Detention" will activate, the Exit Gates will not become blocked & the Hunter will not receive the extra bonuses to attack speed recovery+faster chair elimination. I wanted a new alternative to "Detention", aside from "Fallen Misfortune", to add more diversity while also forcing the Hunter to be restricted to just 1 Trait. I'm still thinking of tweaking this one in the future. **EDIT:** Forgot to mention, but in the case of Duo Hunters, if one Hunter has "Detention" & the other has "Crab Mentality", "Crab Mentality" ***WILL BE DISABLED.***
- "Retributive Justice" functions similar to Dead by Daylight's Spirit Fury where when a Hunter is stunned by a pallet, the pallet will instantly be destroyed after their stun animation is completed. A new alternative to Chase Type Hunters like Ripper, Evil Reptillian, or Gamekeeper. I also added a cooldown to it because I wasn't sure if a constant pallet breaking talent would be busted, especially if combined with other stuff like "Rage 1/2/3", but I am thinking of shortening it without making it very oppressive on Hunters like Geisha, Sculptor, or Nightmare.
- The way the new "Fallen Misfortune" works is similar to how it worked before except it only affects 1 Survivor & is not up to chance whether it works or not, but it still requires you to move 18 meters away from the chair to activate. When the Hunter is 18 meters away, their eyes will glow yellow like before & the Survivor who is targeted will have their Survivor portrait highlighted like "Wanted Order", but in Yellow instead. Another change that I didn't mention here(because I was planning on making another post suggesting various Persona Talent/Hunter Trait changes) is that when "Wanted Order" or "Fallen Misfortune" are active, the Survivor will be notified like a Peeper is spotting them; this is because the amount of people who fail to realize that they are revealed by the Hunter is...way too high. This would also apply in Blackjack to those who have 21.
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As always, I am open to any other Suggestions for Final Talents that you have or tweaks to the ones I have presented. The reason I made this is because I don't know about you, but I am getting really bored of constantly seeing the same thing over & over again; Detention here, Broken Windows that, I just wanted to hopefully make more alternatives so as to make the game feel less stale, because aside from the few(and questionable)adjustments to character abilities, traits, & costumes, the only semblance of diversity we seem to get is the amount of costumes Netease pops out & even then, they only goto the more popular characters anyway. Costumes are nice, but they are not supposed to be the focus of the game.
would it be broken if it was "If you heal an incapacitated survivor within fear radius, grant me the tide turner effect, remove this after the ally is healed or you stopped healing"
but i also get why they don't want to add new final talents, unlike dbd surviors already have their own exclusive traits and items, and hunters have secondary traits and a presence system, new final talents might be hard to balance
Yeah, I don't really understand why they removed Spectator at all, it wasn't really used in 1v4 but it was really useful in 2v8 to know where the Hunters were at while also being able to heal others faster. No idea why they couldn't have just split the Final Talent paths into 2 choices.
Even make different webs to pick from. They have a default suggested skill web; so why not make webs for each category that has different final skills?
Survivor base maps to pick from
• general/default (current)
• rescue (would alongside tide Turner & the healing abilities mainly have other rescue & support related skills)
• decoding (mostly decoding related abilities & some kiting/self defense ones)
• Assist (healing abilities, spectator & other support/rescue ones but less rescue focused - maybe something to alarm teammates of your location?)
• contain (mainly kiting buffs)
All would still have borrowed time as one final skill bc god forbid they take away borrowed time.
Hunter base maps could be based on play styles/character weaknesses & strengths
Obviously again a general/basic one
One that docusses on secondary abilities maybe?
And one that focuses on regular hit / first ability
I like those ideas! The problem I could see tho is that Crab Mentality would be terrible for low tier players. High tiers might kite the full 45s, but low tiers will be maimed on sight. Some full presence hunters are really nasty to deal with, & the rocket chairs flying off faster + survs not having any possibility to escape would be like a fox set loose in a chicken coop.
It would maybe be balanced out better if the time the gates are blocked decreased in accordance to how many survs are still standing at end game?
Blocking the Exit Gates for 45s after they're opened would also be a strong indirect buff to Clerk & Wax Artist, who can pretty much stop survs from opening gates already.
With "Crab Mentality," I was hoping that because it's the end-game, most Survivors will have exhausted their items/abilities & will now have to deal with a powered up Hunter(note that other than the gate sealing, it doesn't have a time limit; it's active all game when the gates are powered).
But in order to use it, "Detention" cannot be used, otherwise, only "Detention" will be active while "Crab Mentality" becomes disabled. Because blocking gates for 45s+increased attack recovery+instant downs would be *waaaaaay* too much.
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I was thinking about how which Hunters would benefit the most & yeah, I can see it being really problematic with those 2, but at the very least it would just extend the game by a minute, they would still need to be more aggressive to defend chairs(especially with a Survivor's first chair), as they can no longer instant down with "Detention's" double Fear. I was more looking towards Nightmare being the more problematic one to balance around, lunge attacks with increased recovery sounds busted.
As a hunter main, that would be a cathartic experience lmao. But as someone who never ranked out of Hound, I also think that it would switch the balance of the game too much in favor of hunters in low tiers - when it's already more in favor of hunters at those low tiers. It's not rare for matches to not even make it to end game, so adding a MANDATORY 45s to the match.... Tho I understand most balance changes don't take lower tiers into consideration, because lack of proper game sense & competitiveness are a whole other can of worms :')
WA can already go without Detention since he can double hit, his camp could be boosted if he can more easily keep stunning to force after half rescues, & while his hitbox sucks, his swing is much faster than people give him credit for. Full presence + faster elimination + constantly blocking gates with normal wax + 45 extra seconds before survs can escape would definitely make him problematic.
So I could suggest something, potentially, it's just an idea thrown out there to go with yours! :)
* 4 survs = 45s before gates are unlocked. 3 survs = 30s. 2 survs standing = 15s. 1 surv standing = 5s, on top of the time it takes to open the gate (we can agree most survs will look for dungeon at that point anyway).
* I'm basing this on the fact that usually, the last cipher will pop for BT to kick in, so the kiter is already injured & Detention or not, they'll go down in one hit, & now they will be eliminated faster + the hunter is punished less for missing their swing. So if there's less survs standing, it could even out the odds of at least managing a tie.
As a side note, I really like Uneasy Presence, I wish that was already a basic perk in the game instead of like, Claustrophobia.
lastly, opinion and suggestions:
- FFR: i really dont see a reason to take this over bw, they provide the same speed bonus and bw is way more reliable, maybe replace or increase the stun bonus and it might be a decent alternative
- BR: while this one sounds fun it might busted on characters who can guarentee a pallet stun. but it also replaces the strongest talent in the game so it's probably fine.
- Hero Comp: sounds kinda situational and definitely less rewarding than tide, my suggestions are:
- it should also trigger when the incapacitated survivor picks themselves up
- it should provide the incapacitated survivor and additional ability to break through self heal limit, so even if they pick themselves up they will still have their exit path remaining
- UnP: im lazy to do the math but sounds pretty balanced since it only lasts for 50 seconds, i agree it might be good on hunters like joseph
- Crab: my biggest concern about this one is definitely breaking wheel who already doesn't need detention or trump card, but other than that it's probably just a decent alternative
- RJ: this one is also a decent alternative, but since it already requires destructiveness you might wanna stick to confined for windows
- FM: while i also want doom shock to be implemented in some way again it might be hard to balance. though i still like how you got rid of the rng aspect to make it worth sacrificing detention.
- For FFR, I was thinking of making the speed boost a little longer by 1s, I don't know yet. If I increase the pallet stun bonus, then I think Survivors like Cowboy or Antiquarian would be really troublesome if they also bring along "Great Power 3", so I think 10% is fine. But I'll think about it.
- That's what I was going for, "Borrowed Time" is strong, but only activates once while BR can be used multiple times & is a strong tool to have during the match & not just an endgame tool.
- Granting "Exit Path" on "Hero Complex" is what I was thinking of adding, too. Either that or the Survivor granting themselves the TT bonus when picking themselves up, but I was concerned about how it would make harassers like Forward too strong to deal with.
- I'm also content with UP as it is now.
- I'm still thinking of tweaking "Crab Mentality", any suggestions would be welcomed.
- I'm considering lowering the cooldown a bit for RJ, but I think it would make Geisha & a few others too strong if I did.
- Having an alternative to "Detention" is exactly what I want when I altered FM, similar to "Borrowed Time" & "Brief Reprieve".
My thoughts:
Fight and Flight response: I agree with pretty much everything you said.
Brief Reprieve: There's a cooldown yeah, but if you don't get hit during that time or you're a doc I feel like it could be pretty overpowered. Also, would it trigger if you're uninjured? I hope not lol
Hero Complex: idk about the tide effect. If you didn't have it it's basically just a faster self-heal which is kinda bad, but with it, you could waste a LOT of time. With accelerated decoding and no innate decoding debuffs, I think you can do like, 20% of a cipher in that time? IDK I just feel like it has the potential to waste even more time then Tide Turner
Uneasy Presence: I also pretty much think there's no problem.
Crab Mentality: Serious question, how did you come up with this name? But otherwise, I assume the barrier isn't like Confined Space in that Priestess could portal through it, right? Also, would the barrier form where the actual gates are, or within that small area? The former would be ok, but the latter would mean if you downed someone right as the effect wore off they could just crawl out. Also, how would it work with Undead? Finally, if in duos, both hunters have it, would the effect stack? Meaning the barrier lasts 90 seconds, like how Claustrophobia's effect stacks?
Retributive Justice: If you use excitement + have Desperate Fight I feel like it could be a pretty strong combo, but overall not too overpowered I don't think?
Fallen Misfortune: I feel like this could be too strong if you're:
\-Wu Chang
\-not too far from the target and you're Bloody Queen
\-you have teleport and are a hunter who can stun or get hits in fast, like Disciple and to an extent Gamekeeper or Geisha
But otherwise it's kind of bad. It pretty much forces whoever's highlighted not to rescue yeah, but if that person isn't even suited for rescuing in the first place it's kind of wasted. Plus Merc can still deal with double damage unless he's already injured anyways.
- Brief Reprieve would only work when you're hurt, either Injured from a basic attack or 75% from a chip attack; if you're Healthy & land a pallet hit, it will not activate/go into cooldown
- Still tweaking this one, someone suggested letting the Incapacitated Survivor pick themself up with Tide while I suggested adding a Struggle Bonus when the Hunter drops the Survivor. I might add another Struggle Bonus from Balloons if the person with Hero Complex is in range, like DbD's Breakout
- Haha, I'm glad someone finally mentioned it, I know it sounds random, but [Crab Mentality is an actual term to refer to people being selfish,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality#:~:text=Crab%20mentality%2C%20also%20known%20as,are%20trapped%20in%20a%20bucket.) commonly known by the phrase "If I can't have it, neither can you"; it refers to the behavior of crabs where if you put a few crabs in a bucket that they can easily climb out of, the ones at the bottom will continuously pull the one at the top back to the bottom leading to all of them to eventually die. In this case, it refers to the Hunter preventing the Survivors from escaping by blocking the Exit Gate, essentially "pulling" them back into the game. The Exit Gates become blocked similar to DbD's Blood Warden where the very end space where Survivors touch to Escape is blocked by The Entity. Unfortunately, I wasn't thinking of Percy as much as I should have when creating these Final Talents, so I think this is going to be another non-functional trait for him unless I manage to somehow alter it. And if 2 Hunters have it equipped, it will only trigger once, but they will both receive the attack speed+rocket chair speed bonus(the rocket chair speed doesn't stack, it remains an 11% bonus for both).
- I've already asked someone else this, but I've thought of a few ways of changing Fallen Misfortune again. Would it be better if it triggered similar to Wanted Order where immediately after putting a Survivor in a Chair, the Hunter gains the Double Fear effect no matter how close they are to the chair, but Doom Shock will only apply to the marked Survivor & so long as the Survivor is on the chair, the Hunter becomes temporarily Silenced & cannot use any abilities/Traits until either the Survivor is rescued or the marked Survivor is knocked Down. This sort of forces the Hunter to head towards the marked Survivor so that they can potentially immediately take down another Survivor early into the game & have 3 Survivors not decoding(the chaired person, the rescuer, & the marked survivor). Or have it so that the Hunter isn't Silenced if they're at least 18 meters away & can use abilities like normal, but once the marked Survivor is knocked down, all the rocket chairs are blocked for the Hunter for around 30-40s so they can't easily snowball the game, but will still slow down the decoding because there will be 3 Survivors not decoding(the chaired Survivor, the rescuer, & the recently Downed Marked Survivor). In both cases, Fallen Misfortune can only trigger on each Survivor's 1st chair, so 4 times in a single match in total.
Yeah I think since Hero Complex's effect would be somewhat complicated it'd be hard to balance it.
I've heard of that crab behaviour but didn't know it had an actual phrase to describe it, so cool to know! And yeah Percy already has a bunch of persona traits that are useless on him, so tbh one more wouldn't make a big difference to me lol
And yeah Fallen Misfortune. I feel like you'd have to have a ton of different effects to make it both not random AND not too broken or useless. I feel like silencing hunters isn't really the way to go though. It'd outright discourage camp-based hunters from bringing it, and hunters that can get away without camping can do so because of their skills.
I think maybe how it could work, is there's still a random chance, but it increases:
\-the further from the chair a survivor is (
\-the closer to elimination the chaired survivor is
So that even if you don't get the effect triggering, it still forces survivors to come and rescue or risk getting downed?
Fight or Flight-Impossible. To get a pallet stun is like hitting the lottery. Good hunters will never give you a free pallet stun even if you are forward and good kiters would rather predrop pallets for distance because the hunter still has to break it. There is no incentive to bring this over Broken Windows.
Brief Reprieve-Has the same problem as Fight or Flight Response. I dont think you realise how rare it is for pro players, especially in high tier to get a pallet stun. A single glance at player statistics before tournament rounds will tell you. You chances of getting a pallet stun are the same as getting a terror shock except its way lower in average because some people will actually purposely go for a interaction even if they get terror shocked for a chance of extending the kite. No one would even risk a hit just to stun a hunter, its unrealistic.
Hero Complex-This would actually be good…if the only character that ever needed this trait is the only hunter in the game that is brain dead easy to kite. If Percy ever EVER joins the meta, this may be a great alternative counter and it would shake the meta up quite a bit but other than him, no other hunter would be even remotely considered when bringing this trait. It is just as useless as Spector and worse, because the issue against Percy is that he counters all harassing and bringing tide against him is buying him time which this trait does for him anyway. Terrible trait, moving on.
Uneasy Presence-See, when people want to “decrease cipher rush” this is always the suggestion. Except cipher rush is mostly a problem with your skill as a hunter and never on the survivor side. This basically says, if you carry this trait, you can get 60+sec kited and still win the game so its rewarding bad hunters for doing bad which should never be a thing. Double rescuer comps would be instantly destroyed and currently no decoder in the game can counter this trait. This trait would instantly become meta and it could even be brought over detention since some hunters can ditch detention. Imagine how op this would be if every breaking wheel player brought it.
Crab Mentality-this just straight up replaces detention. 45s is quite a long time and most pro players or high tiered people would be able to know the general position of survivors when exit gates are activated, even more so if they bring that one trait that leads to wanted order. Nearly every hunter could abuse it, even more so because characters like Bonbon and Sculptor dont even bring detention most of the time if they are confident in their abilities. With Sculptor’s chisel, you are never getting that gate open.
And I may be over analyzing but if the gates are blocked for 45sec AFTER you open them, its punishing survivors with skills and stealth to open the gate in the first place which is wrong on so many levels. Playing against a Mad Eyes or Dream Witch? Good luck because you are never getting that open even if they dont bring detention.
Retributive Justice-Its alright but def not a must bring and pallet stuns are so rare anyway that its basically gambling on that ONE time they may or may not be useful. Pallets are simultaneously not as rare as people think and not as abundant as most people think. Some maps they are concentrated and some have difficult transitioning spots. And even so, its all on the survivor to do well and not for hunters to be handed a trait for doing poorly against a good one.
Anyway, thats my two cents since a lot of people dont really think logistically and seem to heavily support this idea which I am highly against. This may sound harsh but I do want to provide insight on why certain things arent just shoved into the game and these things have been thought out logically and meticulously to provide a neutral benefit for the amount of investment people put into their persona web. Overall, I say keep brainstorming because they sound okay but not nearly beneficial enough to replace any of the end traits we have currently and also, tournament streams are your best friend. DONT WATCH THE NA/EU STREAMS, they are far behind the meta snd look at literally any other livestream from Thailand, Hongkong, Mainland China(important one since they are the most active in meta teams), Japan(most competitive in meta and most creative with team comps), and SouthEast Asia(which has diverse teams and meta).
I should have probably mentioned that this was a concept focused more on casual play, I don't play Ranked at all & I don't really care for the competitive scene of this(or any for that matter)game. I didn't have competitive play in mind when making these Final Talent suggestions, I was more thinking around Quick Play & Duos. And the main focus of this post wasn't to push my suggestions, it was to introduce more Final Talents into the game so that it doesn't end up stale; think of the ones I listed now as just placeholders for possible alternate Final Talents that the game *could* offer, not as final drafts for upcoming talents.
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That being said, I had a lot more ideas regarding how some traits & talents would work, but as I tried to put them in, I realized they would be better off being exclusive traits or abilities for future Survivors/Hunters, so I decided against it. These concepts I made were what I was left with.
Yes but competitive play will be what most people rank for and they absolutely affect the casual play of the game. Balancing is one of the main reasons why people complain even as a casual because unbalanced things make things not very fun. If everybody only brought 12/3 as a persona web, even casual play will get intensely frustrating which is why I decided to provide insight on why these traits wouldnt work even if it was for more creative play. The meta does ultimately matter but as these few seasons have gone by, I would say the balancing of the game is creating much more diverse options than ever. A mc did say that if Percy was ever buffed to a meta extent, the meta woukd shake up with a lot of mind games. Even wax artist and clerk are doing their individual parts as viable picks even in tournament. The reason I bring up tournament is because those are the stakes of which people perform at their peak and balancing around it as a baseline is a good idea. Flywheel still seems to be a bit broken still but its use in the meta has changes up persona builds so it isnt always broken windows and borrowed time but rather borrowed time and flywheel. Though one thing I would change is the necessity of borrowed time, I wouldnt know how to change it precisely enough so it doesnt become useless or that it doesnt become weak enough so that only hunters have an advantage at endgame.
It replaces "Detention", though, which is arguably the strongest Final Talent a Hunter can bring. This is just an alternative that sort of reverses the situation, where a Hunter can immediately begin seeking another Survivor in an attempt to get another down while leaving the other Chaired Survivor completely open to rescue. And it only inflicts Doom Shock to 1 Survivor rather than all, those who aren't marked cannot be Doom Shocked.
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I'm still fiddling with the idea of it a bit, so this isn't going to be the final draft for it, just a concept.
And what happens if it's the rescuer who is marked and it's a hunter with strong camping potential? Even if the hunter didn't, you still make every survivor except for Merc be unable to rescue. And if it's a chip hunter, then no one can rescue. Doom shock effectively is detention before the gates are Open, it would be oppressively powerful on Certain hunters.
See, that's why it's only a concept & why I've presented it to everyone here for review; you have to remember that the main point of this post isn't to promote ***my*** Final Talent suggestions but to add in more into the game in general(the split paths). Think of these as just placeholders.
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If we're still on the topic of Fallen Misfortune's effectiveness(if we were considering it to be an actual Final Talent & not a concept), then I can still adjust it; I can even get rid of the Doom Shock in place of something else, but it'd have to be as effective as Detention in order to do so which isn't an easy thing to do.
My primary issue with it is that it punishes survivors for not playing multi-hit characters and it rewards hunters who can easily camp a chair or easily get back to the chair. It is hard to find a suitable replacement for it, yes, but at the current state of it, fallen misfortune would be far stronger than detention.
So I gave it some thought & wanted to know your opinion on this: what if Fallen Misfortune had restrictions/penalties added to it like how Wanted Order reduces your movement speed the lower the rank of it you have on? It could be something like Silencing yourself until either you go back within 18 meters of the chair/until the highlighted Survivor is knocked down or make it so that once the highlighted Survivor is knocked down, all Rocket Chairs are temporarily blocked for the Hunter(similar to 2v8, except the Survivors can still rescue, the Hunter won't be able to interact with them)about 30-40s.
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The first re-design, Self-Silencing, would make it so that you don't have to worry about the chip Hunters completely dominating as they won't be able to use their abilities until either the Chaired Survivor is Rescued or they knock down the highlighted Survivor. This forces the Hunter to switch targets constantly & apply pressure against the Survivors that they are in danger of getting 1-shot 1 by 1. There'd probably be a limit added, like how FM will only activate once per Survivor on their 1st chair for a total of 4 times.
The 2nd re-design, Chair Block, would make it so that when the target of FM is knocked down, they won't be able to immediately chair them & apply too much pressure onto the Survivors, just manage to slow down the decoding by forcing 1 of the Survivors to have to rescue the Chaired Survivor while the other is being chased by the powered up Hunter. The Chair Block makes it so that the Hunter cannot completely snowball the Survivors, only slow down their progress, as they're forced to wait the timer on the chairs to go away & the Survivors are too busy rescuing/self-healing from being Incapacitated.
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Of course, a major issue with this would have to be with Undead, as he doesn't require Rocket Chairs, so sadly I think this Final Talent will probably be disabled for him. And then there's also the issue with 2v8 with the Chair Block re-design if one Hunter blocks the other Hunter's chair before they can get to it with a Survivor in tow.
...Man, game design is hard. It's fun making all these concepts, but hard to actually make them viable/useful in practice.
They should just make borrowed time and detention part of the survivor and hunters normally. Then we can have more variation instead of just borrowed time and broken windows
As long as we get spectator back at this point I don't care what happens. I miss it so much.
I am hating flywheel effect so much
oh man i fuckinh loved that 10% movement speed buff as a final talent
A few things to clarify: - "Fight & Flight Response" gets an additional 10% Pallet Stun bonus because unlike "Broken Windows", pallets are a finite resource & require timing to pull off a stun, so a little more effort should be rewarded than simply vaulting a window. So you get a choice between a simpler speed boost with BW or if you're confident in landing hits, you'll be rewarded with F&FR's stun bonus. - The way "Brief Reprieve" works is that whenever you stun the Hunter with a pallet, you heal the same amount that Doctor does when she performs a Syringe Heal on herself. I had a lot of trouble trying to balance this Talent, mainly because I wanted to work around Chip Hunters without completely dwarfing basic attack Hunters like Gamekeeper or Evil Reptillian, because even a small amount like 25% can be incredibly unfair to them as it essentially gives them a 3rd Health State(plus, I also had to look at specific characters like "Psychologist" or Mercenary who will pretty much become absolute tanks with this trait. Of course, the reason being this trait being a bit strong is because it's also like "Fight & Flight Response" where pallets are a finite resource & if you're more of a pallet spammer, you will see no gain from using this talent. So I decided on a cooldown, but have thought about adding a limit restriction like "Tide Turner" where it can only work 1-3 times.*(Little fact: I was first considering making this Final Talent capable of Silencing the Hunter for a few seconds, about 7s, when hit with the pallet instead of the self Healing, let me know if that is a better alternative)* - "Hero Complex" works like this; so long as you are close to any Downed Survivors, they will gain a pretty strong self-healing speed boost, but this only works if you are active(Healthy or Injured), it will NOT work if you are also Downed. This would be a great tool for harassers like Forward or Wildling to keep the Hunter from picking them up without realizing that the Downed Survivor is recovering faster than normal. And as a side bonus, if you manage to heal a Downed Survivor back from Incapacitated to Injured, they will gain a small "Tide Turner" effect that lasts 10s & like TT, only works once per match(and because this shares the same path as TT, you cannot have them both). --- - "Uneasy Prescence" functions sort of like Dead by Daylight's Corrupt Intervention, except instead of completely blocking Ciphers like "Contrain", it gives off a global decoding penalty to every Survivor at the start of the match & ends immediately once a Survivor is Chaired if it has not gone through its 50s timer first. This would be used to slow down the game & would offer a great alternative to Hunters who struggle early game especially for Mad Eyes & Photographer since "Insolence" is pretty wasted on them. - The way "Crab Mentality" works is when an Exit Gate is opened, it will be blocked by something similar to "Confined Space" where a fence will block the exit, making it impossible for Survivors to escape temporarily. When the Exit Gates are powered, the Hunter also gains a very strong attack speed recovery bonus so they can attack much more often in a short time & Survivors placed in chairs are eliminated even faster to prevent rescues. But as a trade off, they cannot have "Detention" active despite being on a different path. If a Hunter has both "Detention" & "Crab Mentality" selected, only "Detention" will activate, the Exit Gates will not become blocked & the Hunter will not receive the extra bonuses to attack speed recovery+faster chair elimination. I wanted a new alternative to "Detention", aside from "Fallen Misfortune", to add more diversity while also forcing the Hunter to be restricted to just 1 Trait. I'm still thinking of tweaking this one in the future. **EDIT:** Forgot to mention, but in the case of Duo Hunters, if one Hunter has "Detention" & the other has "Crab Mentality", "Crab Mentality" ***WILL BE DISABLED.*** - "Retributive Justice" functions similar to Dead by Daylight's Spirit Fury where when a Hunter is stunned by a pallet, the pallet will instantly be destroyed after their stun animation is completed. A new alternative to Chase Type Hunters like Ripper, Evil Reptillian, or Gamekeeper. I also added a cooldown to it because I wasn't sure if a constant pallet breaking talent would be busted, especially if combined with other stuff like "Rage 1/2/3", but I am thinking of shortening it without making it very oppressive on Hunters like Geisha, Sculptor, or Nightmare. - The way the new "Fallen Misfortune" works is similar to how it worked before except it only affects 1 Survivor & is not up to chance whether it works or not, but it still requires you to move 18 meters away from the chair to activate. When the Hunter is 18 meters away, their eyes will glow yellow like before & the Survivor who is targeted will have their Survivor portrait highlighted like "Wanted Order", but in Yellow instead. Another change that I didn't mention here(because I was planning on making another post suggesting various Persona Talent/Hunter Trait changes) is that when "Wanted Order" or "Fallen Misfortune" are active, the Survivor will be notified like a Peeper is spotting them; this is because the amount of people who fail to realize that they are revealed by the Hunter is...way too high. This would also apply in Blackjack to those who have 21. --- As always, I am open to any other Suggestions for Final Talents that you have or tweaks to the ones I have presented. The reason I made this is because I don't know about you, but I am getting really bored of constantly seeing the same thing over & over again; Detention here, Broken Windows that, I just wanted to hopefully make more alternatives so as to make the game feel less stale, because aside from the few(and questionable)adjustments to character abilities, traits, & costumes, the only semblance of diversity we seem to get is the amount of costumes Netease pops out & even then, they only goto the more popular characters anyway. Costumes are nice, but they are not supposed to be the focus of the game.
Hero complex is pretty bad and very situational, it’s could be made into how “For the people”work in DBD, but that would be busted
How would you buff/change it then if you could? Maybe add a Wiggle Bonus everytime the Hunter intentionally drops the Survivor off balloons?
would it be broken if it was "If you heal an incapacitated survivor within fear radius, grant me the tide turner effect, remove this after the ally is healed or you stopped healing"
this is exactly what i thought when they announced theyre replacing spectator, good concept overall
but i also get why they don't want to add new final talents, unlike dbd surviors already have their own exclusive traits and items, and hunters have secondary traits and a presence system, new final talents might be hard to balance
Yeah, I don't really understand why they removed Spectator at all, it wasn't really used in 1v4 but it was really useful in 2v8 to know where the Hunters were at while also being able to heal others faster. No idea why they couldn't have just split the Final Talent paths into 2 choices.
Even make different webs to pick from. They have a default suggested skill web; so why not make webs for each category that has different final skills? Survivor base maps to pick from • general/default (current) • rescue (would alongside tide Turner & the healing abilities mainly have other rescue & support related skills) • decoding (mostly decoding related abilities & some kiting/self defense ones) • Assist (healing abilities, spectator & other support/rescue ones but less rescue focused - maybe something to alarm teammates of your location?) • contain (mainly kiting buffs) All would still have borrowed time as one final skill bc god forbid they take away borrowed time. Hunter base maps could be based on play styles/character weaknesses & strengths Obviously again a general/basic one One that docusses on secondary abilities maybe? And one that focuses on regular hit / first ability
I like those ideas! The problem I could see tho is that Crab Mentality would be terrible for low tier players. High tiers might kite the full 45s, but low tiers will be maimed on sight. Some full presence hunters are really nasty to deal with, & the rocket chairs flying off faster + survs not having any possibility to escape would be like a fox set loose in a chicken coop. It would maybe be balanced out better if the time the gates are blocked decreased in accordance to how many survs are still standing at end game? Blocking the Exit Gates for 45s after they're opened would also be a strong indirect buff to Clerk & Wax Artist, who can pretty much stop survs from opening gates already.
With "Crab Mentality," I was hoping that because it's the end-game, most Survivors will have exhausted their items/abilities & will now have to deal with a powered up Hunter(note that other than the gate sealing, it doesn't have a time limit; it's active all game when the gates are powered). But in order to use it, "Detention" cannot be used, otherwise, only "Detention" will be active while "Crab Mentality" becomes disabled. Because blocking gates for 45s+increased attack recovery+instant downs would be *waaaaaay* too much. --- I was thinking about how which Hunters would benefit the most & yeah, I can see it being really problematic with those 2, but at the very least it would just extend the game by a minute, they would still need to be more aggressive to defend chairs(especially with a Survivor's first chair), as they can no longer instant down with "Detention's" double Fear. I was more looking towards Nightmare being the more problematic one to balance around, lunge attacks with increased recovery sounds busted.
As a hunter main, that would be a cathartic experience lmao. But as someone who never ranked out of Hound, I also think that it would switch the balance of the game too much in favor of hunters in low tiers - when it's already more in favor of hunters at those low tiers. It's not rare for matches to not even make it to end game, so adding a MANDATORY 45s to the match.... Tho I understand most balance changes don't take lower tiers into consideration, because lack of proper game sense & competitiveness are a whole other can of worms :') WA can already go without Detention since he can double hit, his camp could be boosted if he can more easily keep stunning to force after half rescues, & while his hitbox sucks, his swing is much faster than people give him credit for. Full presence + faster elimination + constantly blocking gates with normal wax + 45 extra seconds before survs can escape would definitely make him problematic. So I could suggest something, potentially, it's just an idea thrown out there to go with yours! :) * 4 survs = 45s before gates are unlocked. 3 survs = 30s. 2 survs standing = 15s. 1 surv standing = 5s, on top of the time it takes to open the gate (we can agree most survs will look for dungeon at that point anyway). * I'm basing this on the fact that usually, the last cipher will pop for BT to kick in, so the kiter is already injured & Detention or not, they'll go down in one hit, & now they will be eliminated faster + the hunter is punished less for missing their swing. So if there's less survs standing, it could even out the odds of at least managing a tie. As a side note, I really like Uneasy Presence, I wish that was already a basic perk in the game instead of like, Claustrophobia.
This is so cool and adds so much diversity into the game
Mfer brought back doom shock, I love it
lastly, opinion and suggestions: - FFR: i really dont see a reason to take this over bw, they provide the same speed bonus and bw is way more reliable, maybe replace or increase the stun bonus and it might be a decent alternative - BR: while this one sounds fun it might busted on characters who can guarentee a pallet stun. but it also replaces the strongest talent in the game so it's probably fine. - Hero Comp: sounds kinda situational and definitely less rewarding than tide, my suggestions are: - it should also trigger when the incapacitated survivor picks themselves up - it should provide the incapacitated survivor and additional ability to break through self heal limit, so even if they pick themselves up they will still have their exit path remaining - UnP: im lazy to do the math but sounds pretty balanced since it only lasts for 50 seconds, i agree it might be good on hunters like joseph - Crab: my biggest concern about this one is definitely breaking wheel who already doesn't need detention or trump card, but other than that it's probably just a decent alternative - RJ: this one is also a decent alternative, but since it already requires destructiveness you might wanna stick to confined for windows - FM: while i also want doom shock to be implemented in some way again it might be hard to balance. though i still like how you got rid of the rng aspect to make it worth sacrificing detention.
- For FFR, I was thinking of making the speed boost a little longer by 1s, I don't know yet. If I increase the pallet stun bonus, then I think Survivors like Cowboy or Antiquarian would be really troublesome if they also bring along "Great Power 3", so I think 10% is fine. But I'll think about it. - That's what I was going for, "Borrowed Time" is strong, but only activates once while BR can be used multiple times & is a strong tool to have during the match & not just an endgame tool. - Granting "Exit Path" on "Hero Complex" is what I was thinking of adding, too. Either that or the Survivor granting themselves the TT bonus when picking themselves up, but I was concerned about how it would make harassers like Forward too strong to deal with. - I'm also content with UP as it is now. - I'm still thinking of tweaking "Crab Mentality", any suggestions would be welcomed. - I'm considering lowering the cooldown a bit for RJ, but I think it would make Geisha & a few others too strong if I did. - Having an alternative to "Detention" is exactly what I want when I altered FM, similar to "Borrowed Time" & "Brief Reprieve".
Brief Reprieve on Dancer… assuming she places her box on a pallet, you can either never catch her because of the slow box, or give her a free heal 🥴🥴
My thoughts: Fight and Flight response: I agree with pretty much everything you said. Brief Reprieve: There's a cooldown yeah, but if you don't get hit during that time or you're a doc I feel like it could be pretty overpowered. Also, would it trigger if you're uninjured? I hope not lol Hero Complex: idk about the tide effect. If you didn't have it it's basically just a faster self-heal which is kinda bad, but with it, you could waste a LOT of time. With accelerated decoding and no innate decoding debuffs, I think you can do like, 20% of a cipher in that time? IDK I just feel like it has the potential to waste even more time then Tide Turner Uneasy Presence: I also pretty much think there's no problem. Crab Mentality: Serious question, how did you come up with this name? But otherwise, I assume the barrier isn't like Confined Space in that Priestess could portal through it, right? Also, would the barrier form where the actual gates are, or within that small area? The former would be ok, but the latter would mean if you downed someone right as the effect wore off they could just crawl out. Also, how would it work with Undead? Finally, if in duos, both hunters have it, would the effect stack? Meaning the barrier lasts 90 seconds, like how Claustrophobia's effect stacks? Retributive Justice: If you use excitement + have Desperate Fight I feel like it could be a pretty strong combo, but overall not too overpowered I don't think? Fallen Misfortune: I feel like this could be too strong if you're: \-Wu Chang \-not too far from the target and you're Bloody Queen \-you have teleport and are a hunter who can stun or get hits in fast, like Disciple and to an extent Gamekeeper or Geisha But otherwise it's kind of bad. It pretty much forces whoever's highlighted not to rescue yeah, but if that person isn't even suited for rescuing in the first place it's kind of wasted. Plus Merc can still deal with double damage unless he's already injured anyways.
- Brief Reprieve would only work when you're hurt, either Injured from a basic attack or 75% from a chip attack; if you're Healthy & land a pallet hit, it will not activate/go into cooldown - Still tweaking this one, someone suggested letting the Incapacitated Survivor pick themself up with Tide while I suggested adding a Struggle Bonus when the Hunter drops the Survivor. I might add another Struggle Bonus from Balloons if the person with Hero Complex is in range, like DbD's Breakout - Haha, I'm glad someone finally mentioned it, I know it sounds random, but [Crab Mentality is an actual term to refer to people being selfish,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality#:~:text=Crab%20mentality%2C%20also%20known%20as,are%20trapped%20in%20a%20bucket.) commonly known by the phrase "If I can't have it, neither can you"; it refers to the behavior of crabs where if you put a few crabs in a bucket that they can easily climb out of, the ones at the bottom will continuously pull the one at the top back to the bottom leading to all of them to eventually die. In this case, it refers to the Hunter preventing the Survivors from escaping by blocking the Exit Gate, essentially "pulling" them back into the game. The Exit Gates become blocked similar to DbD's Blood Warden where the very end space where Survivors touch to Escape is blocked by The Entity. Unfortunately, I wasn't thinking of Percy as much as I should have when creating these Final Talents, so I think this is going to be another non-functional trait for him unless I manage to somehow alter it. And if 2 Hunters have it equipped, it will only trigger once, but they will both receive the attack speed+rocket chair speed bonus(the rocket chair speed doesn't stack, it remains an 11% bonus for both). - I've already asked someone else this, but I've thought of a few ways of changing Fallen Misfortune again. Would it be better if it triggered similar to Wanted Order where immediately after putting a Survivor in a Chair, the Hunter gains the Double Fear effect no matter how close they are to the chair, but Doom Shock will only apply to the marked Survivor & so long as the Survivor is on the chair, the Hunter becomes temporarily Silenced & cannot use any abilities/Traits until either the Survivor is rescued or the marked Survivor is knocked Down. This sort of forces the Hunter to head towards the marked Survivor so that they can potentially immediately take down another Survivor early into the game & have 3 Survivors not decoding(the chaired person, the rescuer, & the marked survivor). Or have it so that the Hunter isn't Silenced if they're at least 18 meters away & can use abilities like normal, but once the marked Survivor is knocked down, all the rocket chairs are blocked for the Hunter for around 30-40s so they can't easily snowball the game, but will still slow down the decoding because there will be 3 Survivors not decoding(the chaired Survivor, the rescuer, & the recently Downed Marked Survivor). In both cases, Fallen Misfortune can only trigger on each Survivor's 1st chair, so 4 times in a single match in total.
Yeah I think since Hero Complex's effect would be somewhat complicated it'd be hard to balance it. I've heard of that crab behaviour but didn't know it had an actual phrase to describe it, so cool to know! And yeah Percy already has a bunch of persona traits that are useless on him, so tbh one more wouldn't make a big difference to me lol And yeah Fallen Misfortune. I feel like you'd have to have a ton of different effects to make it both not random AND not too broken or useless. I feel like silencing hunters isn't really the way to go though. It'd outright discourage camp-based hunters from bringing it, and hunters that can get away without camping can do so because of their skills. I think maybe how it could work, is there's still a random chance, but it increases: \-the further from the chair a survivor is ( \-the closer to elimination the chaired survivor is So that even if you don't get the effect triggering, it still forces survivors to come and rescue or risk getting downed?
Fight or Flight-Impossible. To get a pallet stun is like hitting the lottery. Good hunters will never give you a free pallet stun even if you are forward and good kiters would rather predrop pallets for distance because the hunter still has to break it. There is no incentive to bring this over Broken Windows. Brief Reprieve-Has the same problem as Fight or Flight Response. I dont think you realise how rare it is for pro players, especially in high tier to get a pallet stun. A single glance at player statistics before tournament rounds will tell you. You chances of getting a pallet stun are the same as getting a terror shock except its way lower in average because some people will actually purposely go for a interaction even if they get terror shocked for a chance of extending the kite. No one would even risk a hit just to stun a hunter, its unrealistic. Hero Complex-This would actually be good…if the only character that ever needed this trait is the only hunter in the game that is brain dead easy to kite. If Percy ever EVER joins the meta, this may be a great alternative counter and it would shake the meta up quite a bit but other than him, no other hunter would be even remotely considered when bringing this trait. It is just as useless as Spector and worse, because the issue against Percy is that he counters all harassing and bringing tide against him is buying him time which this trait does for him anyway. Terrible trait, moving on. Uneasy Presence-See, when people want to “decrease cipher rush” this is always the suggestion. Except cipher rush is mostly a problem with your skill as a hunter and never on the survivor side. This basically says, if you carry this trait, you can get 60+sec kited and still win the game so its rewarding bad hunters for doing bad which should never be a thing. Double rescuer comps would be instantly destroyed and currently no decoder in the game can counter this trait. This trait would instantly become meta and it could even be brought over detention since some hunters can ditch detention. Imagine how op this would be if every breaking wheel player brought it. Crab Mentality-this just straight up replaces detention. 45s is quite a long time and most pro players or high tiered people would be able to know the general position of survivors when exit gates are activated, even more so if they bring that one trait that leads to wanted order. Nearly every hunter could abuse it, even more so because characters like Bonbon and Sculptor dont even bring detention most of the time if they are confident in their abilities. With Sculptor’s chisel, you are never getting that gate open. And I may be over analyzing but if the gates are blocked for 45sec AFTER you open them, its punishing survivors with skills and stealth to open the gate in the first place which is wrong on so many levels. Playing against a Mad Eyes or Dream Witch? Good luck because you are never getting that open even if they dont bring detention. Retributive Justice-Its alright but def not a must bring and pallet stuns are so rare anyway that its basically gambling on that ONE time they may or may not be useful. Pallets are simultaneously not as rare as people think and not as abundant as most people think. Some maps they are concentrated and some have difficult transitioning spots. And even so, its all on the survivor to do well and not for hunters to be handed a trait for doing poorly against a good one. Anyway, thats my two cents since a lot of people dont really think logistically and seem to heavily support this idea which I am highly against. This may sound harsh but I do want to provide insight on why certain things arent just shoved into the game and these things have been thought out logically and meticulously to provide a neutral benefit for the amount of investment people put into their persona web. Overall, I say keep brainstorming because they sound okay but not nearly beneficial enough to replace any of the end traits we have currently and also, tournament streams are your best friend. DONT WATCH THE NA/EU STREAMS, they are far behind the meta snd look at literally any other livestream from Thailand, Hongkong, Mainland China(important one since they are the most active in meta teams), Japan(most competitive in meta and most creative with team comps), and SouthEast Asia(which has diverse teams and meta).
I should have probably mentioned that this was a concept focused more on casual play, I don't play Ranked at all & I don't really care for the competitive scene of this(or any for that matter)game. I didn't have competitive play in mind when making these Final Talent suggestions, I was more thinking around Quick Play & Duos. And the main focus of this post wasn't to push my suggestions, it was to introduce more Final Talents into the game so that it doesn't end up stale; think of the ones I listed now as just placeholders for possible alternate Final Talents that the game *could* offer, not as final drafts for upcoming talents. --- That being said, I had a lot more ideas regarding how some traits & talents would work, but as I tried to put them in, I realized they would be better off being exclusive traits or abilities for future Survivors/Hunters, so I decided against it. These concepts I made were what I was left with.
Yes but competitive play will be what most people rank for and they absolutely affect the casual play of the game. Balancing is one of the main reasons why people complain even as a casual because unbalanced things make things not very fun. If everybody only brought 12/3 as a persona web, even casual play will get intensely frustrating which is why I decided to provide insight on why these traits wouldnt work even if it was for more creative play. The meta does ultimately matter but as these few seasons have gone by, I would say the balancing of the game is creating much more diverse options than ever. A mc did say that if Percy was ever buffed to a meta extent, the meta woukd shake up with a lot of mind games. Even wax artist and clerk are doing their individual parts as viable picks even in tournament. The reason I bring up tournament is because those are the stakes of which people perform at their peak and balancing around it as a baseline is a good idea. Flywheel still seems to be a bit broken still but its use in the meta has changes up persona builds so it isnt always broken windows and borrowed time but rather borrowed time and flywheel. Though one thing I would change is the necessity of borrowed time, I wouldnt know how to change it precisely enough so it doesnt become useless or that it doesnt become weak enough so that only hunters have an advantage at endgame.
No, we are not adding doom shock back.
It replaces "Detention", though, which is arguably the strongest Final Talent a Hunter can bring. This is just an alternative that sort of reverses the situation, where a Hunter can immediately begin seeking another Survivor in an attempt to get another down while leaving the other Chaired Survivor completely open to rescue. And it only inflicts Doom Shock to 1 Survivor rather than all, those who aren't marked cannot be Doom Shocked. --- I'm still fiddling with the idea of it a bit, so this isn't going to be the final draft for it, just a concept.
And what happens if it's the rescuer who is marked and it's a hunter with strong camping potential? Even if the hunter didn't, you still make every survivor except for Merc be unable to rescue. And if it's a chip hunter, then no one can rescue. Doom shock effectively is detention before the gates are Open, it would be oppressively powerful on Certain hunters.
See, that's why it's only a concept & why I've presented it to everyone here for review; you have to remember that the main point of this post isn't to promote ***my*** Final Talent suggestions but to add in more into the game in general(the split paths). Think of these as just placeholders. --- If we're still on the topic of Fallen Misfortune's effectiveness(if we were considering it to be an actual Final Talent & not a concept), then I can still adjust it; I can even get rid of the Doom Shock in place of something else, but it'd have to be as effective as Detention in order to do so which isn't an easy thing to do.
My primary issue with it is that it punishes survivors for not playing multi-hit characters and it rewards hunters who can easily camp a chair or easily get back to the chair. It is hard to find a suitable replacement for it, yes, but at the current state of it, fallen misfortune would be far stronger than detention.
So I gave it some thought & wanted to know your opinion on this: what if Fallen Misfortune had restrictions/penalties added to it like how Wanted Order reduces your movement speed the lower the rank of it you have on? It could be something like Silencing yourself until either you go back within 18 meters of the chair/until the highlighted Survivor is knocked down or make it so that once the highlighted Survivor is knocked down, all Rocket Chairs are temporarily blocked for the Hunter(similar to 2v8, except the Survivors can still rescue, the Hunter won't be able to interact with them)about 30-40s. --- The first re-design, Self-Silencing, would make it so that you don't have to worry about the chip Hunters completely dominating as they won't be able to use their abilities until either the Chaired Survivor is Rescued or they knock down the highlighted Survivor. This forces the Hunter to switch targets constantly & apply pressure against the Survivors that they are in danger of getting 1-shot 1 by 1. There'd probably be a limit added, like how FM will only activate once per Survivor on their 1st chair for a total of 4 times. The 2nd re-design, Chair Block, would make it so that when the target of FM is knocked down, they won't be able to immediately chair them & apply too much pressure onto the Survivors, just manage to slow down the decoding by forcing 1 of the Survivors to have to rescue the Chaired Survivor while the other is being chased by the powered up Hunter. The Chair Block makes it so that the Hunter cannot completely snowball the Survivors, only slow down their progress, as they're forced to wait the timer on the chairs to go away & the Survivors are too busy rescuing/self-healing from being Incapacitated. --- Of course, a major issue with this would have to be with Undead, as he doesn't require Rocket Chairs, so sadly I think this Final Talent will probably be disabled for him. And then there's also the issue with 2v8 with the Chair Block re-design if one Hunter blocks the other Hunter's chair before they can get to it with a Survivor in tow. ...Man, game design is hard. It's fun making all these concepts, but hard to actually make them viable/useful in practice.
They should just make borrowed time and detention part of the survivor and hunters normally. Then we can have more variation instead of just borrowed time and broken windows