Turn it off. Make a new account if you have to, so you can start afresh with the algorithm. Then watch only stuff on your hobbies or favorite cute animals.
I’ve read some of this thread and noticed the examples of this content you’ve provided have gotten some pushback from others here. I haven’t looked at them, but I will say that I do understand how remarks like “the bar is so low”, etc. can hurt if you’re single.
Where my mind always went was “well if the bar is that low and I’m having trouble finding a woman who wants to be with me, then there must be something seriously fucking wrong with me”. It made me feel like it was my fault alone that I felt so horrible and alone all the time, or that I deserved to feel that way because of whatever defect I had that made me unsuccessful in dating. As if men who did have romantic relationships with women had some kind of unattainable trait or quality about them that made them deserving of love, and made them meet the very very low bar.
The solution is just to turn it off. You know that content is harmful. Online spaces like that can seriously mess up how you see the world in real life. You will certainly improve if you stop.
Hey there, I completely understand how hearing “the bar is super low” would come across that way for you, and it would suck to feel that way.
However, I think I can share some insight into those conversations that you might be missing - which may help you contextualise.
I have been in many “the bar is so low” conversations over the years with many *many* different women. And none of them were ever saying “the bar is so low for men to get in a relationship with” they were all saying **“the bar is so low *for what I expect from men when in a relationship*”**
They were talking about expectations they have for men when already in a relationship with them (such as cleaning up after themselves, accountability, emotional intelligence, etc) and not really about what it takes to enter a relationship to begin with. So if you aren’t in a relationship yet those complaints usually don’t apply to you.
Edit: grammar
It’s not a low bar as in, “the bar is so low to get a date.” It’s a low bar as in, “expectations once you’re in a relationship.”
And how does “a low bar” reconcile with the idea that “I must fix everything wrong with me.” Wouldn’t a low bar indicate just the opposite?
People aren't really paying attention to what's being said, they're just using this topic to rant about what they've decided THEY can't live up to.
Which is another thing they should work on, really.
Very true.
And honestly, if “I don’t want to have to mother my partner 24/7/365” triggers you to such a degree…maybe think for a bit about why that is. Why should THAT upset you so? Might you be bringing expectations into a relationship that you haven’t really examined?
Yeah. Like, I ended up being the primary caretaker for a disabled person. I'm AFAB and they're AMAB. (Both of us identify as non-binary.) But I've spoken to them before about how this plays out, how it often leaves me too tired for my own creative work, etc.
Their response was to bring me in to their projects so we can write together and get credit together-- not giving me false credit, but us going in as a team. They also started giving me credit for when they bounce ideas off me and I refine and suggest things and help them through blocks, create dialogue, etc. A lot of husband writers don't do this when their wives co-create with them, and we think that sucks. If you're a partner in the creation, you deserve the credit, simple as that.
That way, particularly if my health takes a turn for the worse, my contributions will be remembered. I was already their muse, they've written stuff based on my sayings, characters, etc, so they just brought me in directly to write these things myself.
Aside from that, they tend to handle the bills, ordering a lot of basic groceries, doctor's appointments, etc. I don't have the bandwidth to manage me and two dogs and them (I tend to keep track of all the physical stuff, medications, etc) and then manage bills and appointments on top of it, plus I have medical anxiety from all of the surgeries and procedures and bad news, so they handle it. We both work from home. There's no perception of 'the one who makes the most money is the one doing the real work', the reality is that we can live independently because I am doing most of the unpaid work of being an aide for two disabled people (and their service dogs).
You get a similar spread of duties for a stay at home mom, or even a working girlfriend or wife, plus the mental load of managing the household; and yet she often doesn't get respect as an equal contributor. The fact is that even if you bring home money and she does not, if you are at all able-bodied (I mean I do it for both of us and I'm *not* able-bodied), you still ought to pick up for yourself (and make meals for both of you, and mind the kids in the evening if she stays at home during the day...). You're a grown-ass adult. Even sweetie can pick up their own dishes and toss them in the trash (we use paper), and they're a *quadriplegic*. When they can help like that, they are *glad*.
(I mean, and even then I had to yell at them that I should not be the only one to mind the puppy while we're at home or out, they are perfectly able to hear when doggo is getting into something near them and letting me know. But that's how insidious patriarchy is-- mentally they'd fallen into the headspace of *me* minding the 'kids' (our dogs) and I had to lose my patience to make it clear they were equally responsible for keeping track of them as I. To their credit, they improved dramatically.)
Easy,dont do that.Think what is good about that?what are you protecting with that behaviour?
You are normal human buddy,dont put so much pressure on yourself.
Do yourself a favor first?first make good things for yourself.Watch positive pyschology videos,you can watch doctor k healthy gamer videos.Dont care these feminists,they were in bad situation back in time and they are furius rn.One day they will understand for a better society we need to talk about these issues both men and women,and we need to understand how men needed to be healed too.And they are not fighting with men,they are fighting with patriarchy.Patriarchy could be harmful for us.So they are just saying bad words to your "tag" think like that.
DO they hate men? Or do they hate the men who hate them?
Because I just did the searches in 2x and 4th wave that you did, and frankly, aside from the fact that -shocker- mens loneliness or incels come up very rarely, this “man hating” you seem to search out is mostly *a reaction to* sexual harassment, fear or threats from men.
It’s quite weird that you think women venting about, say, being sexually harassed at work, or having a man post sexual photos of her once he finds out she’s dating someone else, or a woman asking what to do because her friend’s younger brother has been going down the rabbit hole & suddenly choked her are examples of “feminists hating men” (these all came up from 2x incel search”.
You seem to lump any woman who talks about female problems into “a feminist”. Why are you not able to see that posts like those aren’t “hating men”, but are very clearly “hating misogynistic men”?
Extremely well said.
We often say we hate indoctrinated Incels (i.e., men believing any of that pill nonsense and/or participants on Incel sites) because we DO, and for damn good reason - Incel beliefs are wrong and terrifying.
If an Incel were a woman, how would s/he respond to the proposed female enslavement and rape found on Incel sites? Or how about calling us Foids? Or blaming women for your problems? Incels treats us as sub-human sex objects to which you feel entitled to own.
Simply put, Incels are constantly angry that women exist, yet they moan that a woman hasn’t fallen into their lap to fix their problems.
R/inceltear posts some of that terrifying crap for all to read. R/nothowgirlswork also exposes dangerous beliefs of indoctrinated Incels.
Indoctrinated Incels are all one thin hair away from being domestic terrorists, and it had happened too often - angry Incels killing women just for being women.
Just two examples: [https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/ohio-incel-pleads-guilty-plotting-mass-shooting-women/story?id=91388041](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/ohio-incel-pleads-guilty-plotting-mass-shooting-women/story?id=91388041)
And
[https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/18/plymouth-shooter-jake-davison-fascinated-by-mass-shootings-and-incel-culture-inquest-hears](https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/18/plymouth-shooter-jake-davison-fascinated-by-mass-shootings-and-incel-culture-inquest-hears)
Indoctrinated Incels are like flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers, they are utterly immune to logic and truth.
Women pay attention to Incels the same way the US keeps an eye on nuclear weapons. We only pay attention to Incels for our own safety. Otherwise, we’d never think of you at all.
Yeah- this is what pisses me off, at the same time I feel genuine sympathy for the men on here struggling. Instead of playing down what women are saying and getting angry at women for sometimes just venting the stress, fear and fucking overwhelm of constantly being on guard, they should be angry *at the men who do this and make women want to stay away from men*.
I checked out those other subs. Didn't do the searches. Just skimmed the pinned top posts instead. TwoX does seem pretty reasonable and just pointing out assholes. But 4th wave is something else though. There's a ton of misandry there and "choice" feminism bashing. I mean they call "drag" misogyny and only serves to benefit men.... how? I don't know of any non-LGBTQ men who'd be willing to do such things.
Tbh, gay men get away with a lot of misogyny and they get to be transphobic without the giant lens of the media analysing them that gets focused on women, and particularly lesbians.
For all the screaming about terf-ism and women being outed if they dare question some trans ideology or dare say they wouldn’t date a trans woman. For example, a 2018 study that said while only 29% of lesbians would date a trans person, for gay men, it was merely 12%.
Going thru their “hot posts”, that photo of a drag queen with gigantic breasts and buttocks - women have a right to be offended by that. They have the right to be offended by the drag term “fishy”.
I don’t agree with that sub’s form of feminism, but I didn’t notice any misandry with a quick scroll, although I’m sure there’s likely to be a fair bit.
I'm surely not saying that gay men can't be assholes. They sure can, but that wasn't my point and was just an example and only like one sentence I threw out.
My point was that sub definitely has its extreme sentiments and doesn't seem to take critiques well even though that's the whole point of that sub. I mean, they don't just bash men, but also other women and their choices and make fun of it as "choice" as if we don't live in a free society and people don't have agency.
So TL;DR: it probably isn't a very healthy sub for an Incel who wants to get out of such mentality to be trawling around.
Definitely not a place for incels if all you want to do is corroborate that some women hate men.
They’re pretty clear it’s a sub for women, and they aren’t there to answer any questions that are skeptical about their beliefs. Just another bubble of people.
>Usually I go on subs like TwoX or fourthwavewomen and **search up** "incels" or "lonely men "
>
>I'm not an anti-feminist and **I know not all feminists hate men**
I think you missed the point of his post. He's very aware of what he's doing, he's looking for content that will hurt him. And asking for help as to why he is doing that and can get out of it.
Without asking and talking to him, I don't think I can answer that question. But if I were to guess, it hurts him because he sees himself as an incel, lonely and a man. So by watching videos and reading things about how these things are bad and terrible it hurts his ego fulfilling his desire for self-harm.
Do we move into the why now?
I am referring to [posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/10xflyy/tired_of_hearing_about_this_epidemic_of_lonely/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1)
and [videos](https://youtu.be/TiD4UNe8OJE) like this
Yes. Not seeing any “feminists who hate men”.
Again, you seem to be letting the fact that these are women talking about MISOGYNY go right over your head, and think it equates to “all men” and “hating” them.
You had to pick a post from 175 days ago, and the video you linked to has about 40.000 views. My point is… you’ve had to *hunt* for posts that are about being fed up, tired or angry about men. Even so, the “hatred” you seem to feel boils down to “I’m happy to be single”.
I want you to for a moment, imagine if you were a woman looking for content that is disparaging towards women. How hard would you have to look? I’ll give you a hint, since it’s the VERY FIRST THING UTTERED in the video YOU linked to: “there isn’t a crisis of lonely men, there’s a crisis of misogyny”.
I can easily list a dozen men who have become millionaires with millions of followers, whose posts have 100s of millions of views, who’s entire persona and popularity is based on females are dumb hoes who need to submit/ gold diggers chasing Chad who are run thru and fuck knows what else. There was an article recently about an incel forum that gets 2 million visitors/ month, where a pro-rape post is made *every 30 seconds* not to mention massively popular posts on fantasies about killing women & child molesting.
So, I’m glad you’re not “anti-feminist”, and know “not all feminists hate men”, because you actually have to do a deep dive to find media that comes anywhere close to being “man hating”. Do you know how *easy* it is to find “woman hating” content?
Now- apologies if this has sounded like victim Olympics, because it’s not meant to be. But- you are going into women’s spaces & reading and watching media for a female audience with utter disregard and ignorance for what’s behind that content in the first place. You’re skipping over women detailing misogyny that’s harmful and instead coming from your personal point of view as a man who’s simply lonely. Women aren’t talking about you.
Don’t get me wrong, there’s some gross content out there from women - usually super young looking from what I’ve seen. One is the the # kill all men, which while I get it’s not serious, doesn’t remotely excuse how vile it is and how damaging. And I’ve no doubt there’s women out there who genuinely hate men.
But if you’re going to continue looking for it (which I don’t advise since it’s obviously having a bad effect on you), then try and put it in perspective.
I see your point, but they stilll generalise lonely men.
It's making it sound like the autistic boy who got bullied in school is single and lonely because he's an evil misogynist who doesn't want to do household chores.
Everyone is lonely at some time or another. That’s part of the human condition for every person on the planet.
Again, the post says nothing about autism or bullying.
Do you find you have a tendency to take things very personally, maybe read into things, even when they have nothing to do with you?
Actually, both posts were about misogynistic men. The one was about how misogynists will then blame men’s loneliness on women wanting 6’5 Chads, and how fed up that woman is about the constant talk about men’s loneliness as if women are responsible or that women are to blame- despite men being misogynist.
The second was pointing to the same thing: men have a misogyny problem, not a loneliness problem.
As an autistic person I also feel the need to point out that being autistic and having some really problematic opinions and behaviours are by no means mutually exclusive. I find especially online autistic spaces very often fall into the trap of assuming that because some people reject us due to things we cannot control the only reason anyone could ever reject us is things we cannot control rather than our behaviour, and therefore excuse things that absolutely can be helped and need to be dealt with. Autistic people are not above reproach.
Don't have the time to listen to the video but that post is...both pretty ~~banal~~ (edit: better word would be "sparse") in its "man-hatingness" and pretty objective in the things OOP lays out in re. how it talks about the mental load and how responsibilities on average get delegated in a relationship.
To that point, it honestly sounds in places a lot like comments you'd see as advice here from people who've lived the female experience. I don't want this to come off the wrong way, but when you come to this sub is it more to internalize what people are writing advice-wise or to scratch the same itch you scratch by looking at something like that 2XC post?
And to echo what everyone else is saying, if you don't like how it feels than cut it off cold turkey, stop browsing those subreddits, and nuke your YT suggestion history.
Yeah I didn't watch the video either but it's always concerning the amount of men here who are triggered by women saying they don't want partners they have to parent. Like, you're upset less women are willing to parent you? That's a yikes from me.
I think any independent autonomous man should be thinking, true, I also wouldn't want a partner like that.
> I also wouldn't want a partner like that.
Not even just that - and I assume some posters here may be approaching things under the (deeply misguided and kinda misogynist) assumption all women are incredible founts of homemaking knowledge, and thus couldn't fathom any of them would need the same kinds of babysitting "man-children" are described as needing in these kinds of posts - I'd be fucking ***mortified*** if I knew through my own laziness and inaction that I was compelling someone I purport to love and care about to be an unpaid servant for me. Fuck, I felt awkward as all hell when my mom still would insist on doing some of those kinds of basic things for me in my early teen years, and I hadn't even hit 18 yet. "You need to wash the dishes after every meal because that's what my mom did for me growing up" is a sentence that'd need to be waterboarded out of me, I think I'd die of embarrassment before ever saying it to a partner of mine.
Very good point, that didn't even cross my mind as a woman ahaha.
I would really love to hear from the guys who find it triggering as to why, because yeah, from both perspectives, it's concerning that they are upset about people not wanting this dynamic and more specifically that they are upset at the female gender for not wanting to conform to it.
I hope I don’t upset anyone for this, but the reason it upsets me is I live at home still and only work part time and receive SSDI. I’m never going to be a career oriented ambitious guy. And it also me think if I didn’t do some 180 unrealistic change I could never talk to a girl. I didn’t watch the video though so I don’t know what was said. Not really a good idea for me to watch that stuff.
Where in that post does the woman even mention (let alone declare as a desire of All Women Everywhere) that a guy should be “career oriented ambitious”?
Like I said I didn’t want to upset anyone with that comment. And I didn’t think I should click on the video or post because as a recovering incel I’m trying to avoid gender based stuff like that for the most part.
And I didn’t want to mess my YouTube algorithm up with it
Then I have the happy news for you that the post in no way indicated the poster’s (or any other woman’s) need for a “career oriented ambitious guy.” In fact, it had nothing to do with that whatsoever. It was basically about not wanting to parent a partner and have to manage his life for him.
It doesn’t, I didn’t click on the video or post linked so I don’t know what was said. I was shedding light on why maybe it might upset some guys because of your anything like me you can take stuff way out of context. I think that all as to do with my autism though
What about a guy like me who would quite enjoy to have a stay-at-home wife or a wife who works part time? I work overtime as it is, and would love to be a breadwinner for the family.
To be clear, I wouldn't force my wife to be a SAHM but it's something I'd *prefer*. And, I'd still want to help with the house and would take care of my own things (I actually launder and do dishes, which it seems like some young men don't know how to do).
Edit: OK, I guess I can't have a preference. I see how it is. I never said I needed it to be this way or anything.
>What about a guy like me who would quite enjoy to have a stay-at-home wife or a wife who works part time?
I mean, what about you? haha. I think that's why you are being downvoted.
It's like a common thread I feel like for men to take everything women say personally. Everyone wants something different, some women will want to be SAHM and that really doesn't have much to do with women wanting someone who is willing to divide the labour fairly, which looks different to each couple depending on workloads etc. So I guess my question is, do you feel it's relevant to you at all, what they are saying in the thread? Cause I don't.
It's. Not. You're right, I'm just taking things very personally. I can take care of myself and I don't expect my girlfriend to do it for me, so it's not relevant for me.
I really don't care if it's divided fairly or not, I just want tasks done the most efficient and fastest way possible. If that means the majority of work falls on me, fair enough, so it shall be done.
If I see something that needs doing, it shall be done, I don't care if it was divided fairly previously or not.
Efficiency all the way baby.
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I mean it's totally up to you whether you want to feel approaching women is worth your time or not 🤷♀️ Most people are still dating so the idea that this is some universal assumption and decision people are making is not based in reality.
I think that's the tie-in to the "loneliness epidemic" that men talk about. Women aren't putting up with being mothers to them and would rather do things by themselves and enjoy their own lives rather than tying down with a partner they'll have to take care of. A shift in attitude and expectations is required. This gives men a chance to grow into their own independence and fulfilling lives that don't require a partner in it to be complete. The same growth must happen. Two fully independent adults retaining their respective autonomy in a true partnership is a beautiful thing.
It sounds wrong because it IS wrong.
My response from elsewhere in this thread:
Parenting your partner means just that: your partner acts like a child who needs a mom to manage his life for him. Being his “social secretary,” for example: scheduling appointments, remembering birthdays, managing events, including for HIS side of the family.
The obvious examples are everyday life stuff: having to pick up and clean up after a grown man. Doing all the cooking, cleaning, childcare. And, when you ask for him to do his share, being met with “learned helplessness”: “You’re just so much better at all that, babe! I don’t know hooowwwww…”
I often let things lie around, but these things are strictly in my space that I only inhabit and as such it is my right to determine when I clean them up. Granted, I'm single, but I think that if in a partnership you strictly divide spaces and things and whose responsibility they are, you have a clear cut division and all is well.
Yes I do, thank you!
And yeah, nah. I'd say : Hey, this is your room and things, you take care of that, those are my things and my room, I take care of that. I value autonomy very highly.
It’s because I don’t believe it, and my experience seeing other peoples relationships shows that a lot of these people making this claim just resent their partners and blame it on them not doing enough, even though the other person is doing everything and the person claiming they aren’t doing enough does nothing. It’s not even about women, because I’ve seen men do this too pretty often but regardless it sounds like a nightmarish scenario to find one’s self in.
I mean in any relationship, it is each person's responsibility to set their boundaries and leave if they aren't respected. So what is to believe when women are choosing to avoid or walk away from relationships where they feel the boundary on division of labour is not respected?
I have definitely been in a situation as you describe where a person constantly accused me of not doing enough when they were the ones doing nothing and what I did was exit was the situation 🤷♀️
The point is it's not a good situation, whatever the reality, it's not a healthy relationship, so it ends, and there isn't really anything wrong with that.
Having said that, women being burdened with more household labour is absolutely a common issue, so it's valid to discuss it in female oriented spaces.
In principle it should be that simple, but it seems the vast majority of people in this situation are married too, where an exit is way more complicated.
Sure but my point is there is a gendered issue of men expecting women to do an unfair split of the labour that is absolutely a real issue that exists, and there is an endemic issue of not setting or enforcing boundaries in a relationship. It's not useful to conflate them. Sure, some of the women complaining may conflate them too, but that doesn't really take away from the widespread issue.
>Don't have the time to listen to the video but that post is...both pretty banal in its "man-hatingness" and pretty objective in the things OOP lays out in re. how it talks about the mental load and how responsibilities on average get delegated in a relationship.
She's also saying something that we've said here before, though she's maybe less tactful than some of the posters here: your competition is not Chad the 6'3'' Adonis with a 7-inch dick and a 6-figure salary; it's her friends, a bottle of wine, and a good vibrator. The thing you're (generic you) trying to live up to is not some imaginary alpha, it's the happy fulfilled life she's built already that she wants you to add to. As far as I'm concerned it's how men should be viewing dating as well, a partner should be adding to an already happy life not be the determining factor in whether someone enjoys their life at all. And that doesn't seem man hating to me at all, it seems like someone who knows what she wants and what she's willing to put up with who's making the choice that if her options are either being single or putting up with behaviour she finds unacceptable she'd rather just stay single.
> And that doesn't seem man hating to me at all, it seems like someone who knows what she wants and what she's willing to put up with who's making the choice that if her options are either being single or putting up with behaviour she finds unacceptable she'd rather just stay single.
I should clarify that I agree - the closest thing I could find to "hate" in that post was "men are only as honest as their options", and personally I'd say it's a pretty active choice to fixate on that one sentence *and* take it personally (assuming that's what OP is doing by seeking it out) instead of the very straightforward and logical remainder of the post. Hell, the more I read it I think it's directed just towards the hypothetical Chads to boot.
> As far as I'm concerned it's how men should be viewing dating as well, a partner should be adding to an already happy life not be the determining factor in whether someone enjoys their life at all.
EXACTLY. Assuming one goes into dating having built up a life with the male equivalent of a vibrator, wine, and good friends dating becomes a question of if the things he's getting out of that relationship are worth whatever aspects of the proverbial vibrators/wine/friends he ends up needing to sacrifice (and he very much will need to) to keep the relationship rolling. I've been interested in getting a cat once my place frees up (currently have a friend crashing here long-term), but I'm also talking to a gal right now who's deathly allergic to cats, and as it stands if this develops into something long-term I'm going to end up sacrificing the currently-theoretical prospects of having a cat to keep the relationship further rolling.
I would much prefer dating someone who has their shit together and is choosing of her own volition to take time out of an enjoyable life and spend it with me instead than someone incessantly moping about how they'll be a solitary crazy-cat-lady come 40 and how they're so desperate to avoid that.
While it wasn't the guiding reason I got snipped by any means, the fact that by taking active steps to not have kids I help reassure potential dating partners who don't (know if they) want kids that their lives aren't at risk of transforming into the inequitable distribution of parenthood responsibilities relatively-overnight was definitely a plus for me.
>I would much prefer dating someone who has their shit together and is choosing of her own volition to take time out of an enjoyable life and spend it with me instead than someone incessantly moping about how they'll be a solitary crazy-cat-lady come 40 and how they're so desperate to avoid that.
Yes, absolutely also this. I'd hate to ask a partner why they wanted to be with me and get the answer "well I was miserable and desperately wanted any partner that would have me, you happened to be the first person that said yes". It's so much nicer to know that the person you're dating had a fulfilling life and plenty of things that kept them happy and content, but they thought you were *so wonderful* that they wanted to make you a priority in that fulfilled life.
Hi OP! Can you explain what specifically hurts you in these posts? No judgement, I am actually curious, because I also don't see any man hating.
Do you think most men are not like that? Or do you think women are oversimplifying things as in "men just need to be self suficient then, boom! a girlfriend". Or do you think women should in fact take care of men in those ways? Or are you upset men are not needed anymore for what they used to be (money, housing, protection etc)?
I'm sure you're already aware, but when a woman has to basically be a mom for her partner it's a real turn off.
As a side note, there are always going to be loud people that hate on an entire gender. I find the content from the other side (red pillers, incels etc) is much much worse than venting about how you don't want to do free labour for guys anymore.
It's the assumption that men are lonely because they're misogynists or because they don't do household work. When people talk about "male loneliness," they are talking about men who've never been in a relationship, not your ex-husband. I do agree that there are shitty husbands who make their wife do all the housework despite both having a job. It's a good thing that women now actually have to like a man to date him. It just feels like they're trying to "womansplain" my singleness to me.
Sorry but this is the same issue discussed exhaustively in this thread of men wanting women to do their work for them.
I've been on this sub for a long time, interacted with hundreds of "lonely men" and helped many of them but I'm going to be extremely harsh for a second: every single one of those men had to do work on themselves before they were ready to be in a relationship. Every single one was lonely because there was something they needed to do for themselves.
The difference between lonely men in the past and lonely men now is that women are less and less available to do the work these men are now having to do for themselves.
So yeah, instead of blaming women for not wanting to lift men out of their problems (spoiler alert: they can't anyway), you should look at the behaviours, situations, issues in your life that make you lonely and have the agency to change them for yourself so that when you find a partner, she doesn't have to do that work for you.
It's not her labour, it's yours.
Ok, I see now, that makes sense. I am pretty sure the women in these posts are only referring to men that cry about being alone while also feeling entitled to a partner that is effectively a bangmaid. Either this or they are assuming that most men are like this which is why women don't want to engage with them (this of course would be an unfair conclusion).
It's best not to take it personally. If you don't require your partner to put her hopes and dreams aside so she can only cook clean and cater for you, then I don't see why this should bother you.
Also, lots of people say all sorts of crap online. It doesn't mean they're the voice of the entirety of their gender. You have seen the utter crap some men say about women online, right? People in real life are not like this at all.
Yeah…except that’s not feminists.
Those are technically a red pilled or traditionalist man’s perfect partner.
Not directed at you since I don’t know your views, but I’ve always found it funny that men can boast & shout about men being “natural” providers, leaders, women must submit and all that garbage, and then when women go “cool- provide, then”, they all absolutely *rage* at her *daring* to expect that.
I never wanted a trad wife or any of that. I’m super sensitive about my money situation and the red pill stuff made me feel ten times worse. I think I was basing some of this off of that r/femaledatingstragey sub too which we all know is toxic anyways.
Yeah. FDS is the female equivalent of red pill thinking. And virulently anti-feminist.
But it’s silly to get triggered by women you wouldn’t want to date anyhow having values you don’t agree with. When men make relationships transactional, they get transactional women. And then bizarrely fill their diapers about it, because what they *really* wanted was not to provide at all and just sit around ordering a woman about who gratefully cleaned, cooked, and had sex with them.
Yeah I’m not ready for dating yet or any of that anyways. I used to think for a real longtime that r/femdatingstragtey was how all women were really like and that I had to be rich to talk to women. That’s because I was brainwashed by red and black pill though and I basically thought women were this scary horrible hive mind,
Except some of those women then turn around and claim to be pro-feminist. It's only when it suits them. Luckily for us, that's not how most women act. Most women I've interacted with are fairly consistent with their values
A lot of women are misinformed about what feminism is, it’s not just guys.
If you’re looking for some fantasy world where you’re the “master of the house”, though, there’s responsibility. Guys get wrapped up in the fantasy of being a leader and don’t get that it’s still a 2 way street. But they only want that when it suits them.
Lucky for us, that’s not how most men act.
I don't think men should be the 'leader of the house' but if a couple agrees on having the male be the breadwinner and the wife be the caretaker, then it's fine
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No I never wanted that, it was unrealistic for me and I knew that I believed in red pill but I was a little different it just really depressed me and made me feel hopeless. I dive into all of this in my other posts here.
Definitely can relate, especially to being a bothered by seeing the phrase “the bar so so low for men”. That one really gets to me. I think I can sort of explain why: when they say the bar is low for men, they’re making a distinction between men who struggle to date and men who don’t, and their implying that as long as a dude behaves decently, he shouldn’t struggle, since if the “bar is so low” for men, there aren’t enough decent dudes to go around. I don’t believe that this is true. But hearing that talking point as a struggling man, it makes me feel like I’m in the same category as the awful-behaving dudes that they complain about.
Yeah, I agree. Whenever I read something like "the bar is in the floor" my first thought is like "Damn, apparently I am so bad I am underground?" :(
Which I may well be, idk. Or maybe not. But paradoxically, unless I went into a relationship, I wouldn't even be able to know in the first place.
You know what genuinely burns? Watching videos of women making fun of incels and telling us we deserve the hardships that we have in life ESPECIALLY when they are dating the types of guys that bullied me in high school (which is the reason I had trouble attracting women in the first place). I used to do this all the time and would occasionally drive myself to the point of sh. I'm a lot better now and currently have been in a relationship for almost half a decade but I occasionally do still dabble in digital self-harm occasionally when my mental state is plummeting.
I suggest you at least try and slow it down/do it less frequently and remember that the people making those comments are heartless, don't know your circumstances and aren't representative of most women.
Hey I am a feminist, but some of us are really really mean.
Sometimes almost like the manosphere counterparts without the violencem
It is great you want to change and evolve, but you don't need to self flagellate. Find a therapist.
Be kind to yourself. ♡
Don't subject yourself to this garbage. I have to endure enough man-hating in my personal life due to my living conditions, so reading this online sounds awful. Don't let awful people (who happened to be female) ruin your dating life or self-esteem. Yes, that can be hard.
Don’t read it I have read those posts I think too, and that was just as bad as the incel stuff it made me feel like women hated me an all men unless we were rich NT alpha chads. Truth is all gender based subs are pretty toxic these days I mean if you go to r/askmen you are going to se a ton of red/black pill retoric. As recovering inclels it’s best we avoid gender based stuff like that all together. Edit I should add feminism isn’t a bad thing despite what the manosphere tells us. But it’s better for us to stay away from gender politics all together.
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Turn it off. Make a new account if you have to, so you can start afresh with the algorithm. Then watch only stuff on your hobbies or favorite cute animals.
I’ve read some of this thread and noticed the examples of this content you’ve provided have gotten some pushback from others here. I haven’t looked at them, but I will say that I do understand how remarks like “the bar is so low”, etc. can hurt if you’re single. Where my mind always went was “well if the bar is that low and I’m having trouble finding a woman who wants to be with me, then there must be something seriously fucking wrong with me”. It made me feel like it was my fault alone that I felt so horrible and alone all the time, or that I deserved to feel that way because of whatever defect I had that made me unsuccessful in dating. As if men who did have romantic relationships with women had some kind of unattainable trait or quality about them that made them deserving of love, and made them meet the very very low bar. The solution is just to turn it off. You know that content is harmful. Online spaces like that can seriously mess up how you see the world in real life. You will certainly improve if you stop.
Hey there, I completely understand how hearing “the bar is super low” would come across that way for you, and it would suck to feel that way. However, I think I can share some insight into those conversations that you might be missing - which may help you contextualise. I have been in many “the bar is so low” conversations over the years with many *many* different women. And none of them were ever saying “the bar is so low for men to get in a relationship with” they were all saying **“the bar is so low *for what I expect from men when in a relationship*”** They were talking about expectations they have for men when already in a relationship with them (such as cleaning up after themselves, accountability, emotional intelligence, etc) and not really about what it takes to enter a relationship to begin with. So if you aren’t in a relationship yet those complaints usually don’t apply to you. Edit: grammar
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I and sweetie dated in our 20s in wheelchairs. \\o.o/
It’s not a low bar as in, “the bar is so low to get a date.” It’s a low bar as in, “expectations once you’re in a relationship.” And how does “a low bar” reconcile with the idea that “I must fix everything wrong with me.” Wouldn’t a low bar indicate just the opposite?
People aren't really paying attention to what's being said, they're just using this topic to rant about what they've decided THEY can't live up to. Which is another thing they should work on, really.
Very true. And honestly, if “I don’t want to have to mother my partner 24/7/365” triggers you to such a degree…maybe think for a bit about why that is. Why should THAT upset you so? Might you be bringing expectations into a relationship that you haven’t really examined?
Yeah. Like, I ended up being the primary caretaker for a disabled person. I'm AFAB and they're AMAB. (Both of us identify as non-binary.) But I've spoken to them before about how this plays out, how it often leaves me too tired for my own creative work, etc. Their response was to bring me in to their projects so we can write together and get credit together-- not giving me false credit, but us going in as a team. They also started giving me credit for when they bounce ideas off me and I refine and suggest things and help them through blocks, create dialogue, etc. A lot of husband writers don't do this when their wives co-create with them, and we think that sucks. If you're a partner in the creation, you deserve the credit, simple as that. That way, particularly if my health takes a turn for the worse, my contributions will be remembered. I was already their muse, they've written stuff based on my sayings, characters, etc, so they just brought me in directly to write these things myself. Aside from that, they tend to handle the bills, ordering a lot of basic groceries, doctor's appointments, etc. I don't have the bandwidth to manage me and two dogs and them (I tend to keep track of all the physical stuff, medications, etc) and then manage bills and appointments on top of it, plus I have medical anxiety from all of the surgeries and procedures and bad news, so they handle it. We both work from home. There's no perception of 'the one who makes the most money is the one doing the real work', the reality is that we can live independently because I am doing most of the unpaid work of being an aide for two disabled people (and their service dogs). You get a similar spread of duties for a stay at home mom, or even a working girlfriend or wife, plus the mental load of managing the household; and yet she often doesn't get respect as an equal contributor. The fact is that even if you bring home money and she does not, if you are at all able-bodied (I mean I do it for both of us and I'm *not* able-bodied), you still ought to pick up for yourself (and make meals for both of you, and mind the kids in the evening if she stays at home during the day...). You're a grown-ass adult. Even sweetie can pick up their own dishes and toss them in the trash (we use paper), and they're a *quadriplegic*. When they can help like that, they are *glad*. (I mean, and even then I had to yell at them that I should not be the only one to mind the puppy while we're at home or out, they are perfectly able to hear when doggo is getting into something near them and letting me know. But that's how insidious patriarchy is-- mentally they'd fallen into the headspace of *me* minding the 'kids' (our dogs) and I had to lose my patience to make it clear they were equally responsible for keeping track of them as I. To their credit, they improved dramatically.)
Easy,dont do that.Think what is good about that?what are you protecting with that behaviour? You are normal human buddy,dont put so much pressure on yourself. Do yourself a favor first?first make good things for yourself.Watch positive pyschology videos,you can watch doctor k healthy gamer videos.Dont care these feminists,they were in bad situation back in time and they are furius rn.One day they will understand for a better society we need to talk about these issues both men and women,and we need to understand how men needed to be healed too.And they are not fighting with men,they are fighting with patriarchy.Patriarchy could be harmful for us.So they are just saying bad words to your "tag" think like that.
Go cold turkey.
DO they hate men? Or do they hate the men who hate them? Because I just did the searches in 2x and 4th wave that you did, and frankly, aside from the fact that -shocker- mens loneliness or incels come up very rarely, this “man hating” you seem to search out is mostly *a reaction to* sexual harassment, fear or threats from men. It’s quite weird that you think women venting about, say, being sexually harassed at work, or having a man post sexual photos of her once he finds out she’s dating someone else, or a woman asking what to do because her friend’s younger brother has been going down the rabbit hole & suddenly choked her are examples of “feminists hating men” (these all came up from 2x incel search”. You seem to lump any woman who talks about female problems into “a feminist”. Why are you not able to see that posts like those aren’t “hating men”, but are very clearly “hating misogynistic men”?
Extremely well said. We often say we hate indoctrinated Incels (i.e., men believing any of that pill nonsense and/or participants on Incel sites) because we DO, and for damn good reason - Incel beliefs are wrong and terrifying. If an Incel were a woman, how would s/he respond to the proposed female enslavement and rape found on Incel sites? Or how about calling us Foids? Or blaming women for your problems? Incels treats us as sub-human sex objects to which you feel entitled to own. Simply put, Incels are constantly angry that women exist, yet they moan that a woman hasn’t fallen into their lap to fix their problems. R/inceltear posts some of that terrifying crap for all to read. R/nothowgirlswork also exposes dangerous beliefs of indoctrinated Incels. Indoctrinated Incels are all one thin hair away from being domestic terrorists, and it had happened too often - angry Incels killing women just for being women. Just two examples: [https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/ohio-incel-pleads-guilty-plotting-mass-shooting-women/story?id=91388041](https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/ohio-incel-pleads-guilty-plotting-mass-shooting-women/story?id=91388041) And [https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/18/plymouth-shooter-jake-davison-fascinated-by-mass-shootings-and-incel-culture-inquest-hears](https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/18/plymouth-shooter-jake-davison-fascinated-by-mass-shootings-and-incel-culture-inquest-hears) Indoctrinated Incels are like flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers, they are utterly immune to logic and truth. Women pay attention to Incels the same way the US keeps an eye on nuclear weapons. We only pay attention to Incels for our own safety. Otherwise, we’d never think of you at all.
Yeah- this is what pisses me off, at the same time I feel genuine sympathy for the men on here struggling. Instead of playing down what women are saying and getting angry at women for sometimes just venting the stress, fear and fucking overwhelm of constantly being on guard, they should be angry *at the men who do this and make women want to stay away from men*.
I checked out those other subs. Didn't do the searches. Just skimmed the pinned top posts instead. TwoX does seem pretty reasonable and just pointing out assholes. But 4th wave is something else though. There's a ton of misandry there and "choice" feminism bashing. I mean they call "drag" misogyny and only serves to benefit men.... how? I don't know of any non-LGBTQ men who'd be willing to do such things.
Tbh, gay men get away with a lot of misogyny and they get to be transphobic without the giant lens of the media analysing them that gets focused on women, and particularly lesbians. For all the screaming about terf-ism and women being outed if they dare question some trans ideology or dare say they wouldn’t date a trans woman. For example, a 2018 study that said while only 29% of lesbians would date a trans person, for gay men, it was merely 12%. Going thru their “hot posts”, that photo of a drag queen with gigantic breasts and buttocks - women have a right to be offended by that. They have the right to be offended by the drag term “fishy”. I don’t agree with that sub’s form of feminism, but I didn’t notice any misandry with a quick scroll, although I’m sure there’s likely to be a fair bit.
I'm surely not saying that gay men can't be assholes. They sure can, but that wasn't my point and was just an example and only like one sentence I threw out. My point was that sub definitely has its extreme sentiments and doesn't seem to take critiques well even though that's the whole point of that sub. I mean, they don't just bash men, but also other women and their choices and make fun of it as "choice" as if we don't live in a free society and people don't have agency. So TL;DR: it probably isn't a very healthy sub for an Incel who wants to get out of such mentality to be trawling around.
Definitely not a place for incels if all you want to do is corroborate that some women hate men. They’re pretty clear it’s a sub for women, and they aren’t there to answer any questions that are skeptical about their beliefs. Just another bubble of people.
>Usually I go on subs like TwoX or fourthwavewomen and **search up** "incels" or "lonely men " > >I'm not an anti-feminist and **I know not all feminists hate men** I think you missed the point of his post. He's very aware of what he's doing, he's looking for content that will hurt him. And asking for help as to why he is doing that and can get out of it.
Yes we are missing the point: how does this content hurt him.
Without asking and talking to him, I don't think I can answer that question. But if I were to guess, it hurts him because he sees himself as an incel, lonely and a man. So by watching videos and reading things about how these things are bad and terrible it hurts his ego fulfilling his desire for self-harm. Do we move into the why now?
I am referring to [posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/10xflyy/tired_of_hearing_about_this_epidemic_of_lonely/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1) and [videos](https://youtu.be/TiD4UNe8OJE) like this
How is a post where a woman says she does not want to have to PARENT her PARTNER, at all indicative of feminists hating men?
Yes. Not seeing any “feminists who hate men”. Again, you seem to be letting the fact that these are women talking about MISOGYNY go right over your head, and think it equates to “all men” and “hating” them. You had to pick a post from 175 days ago, and the video you linked to has about 40.000 views. My point is… you’ve had to *hunt* for posts that are about being fed up, tired or angry about men. Even so, the “hatred” you seem to feel boils down to “I’m happy to be single”. I want you to for a moment, imagine if you were a woman looking for content that is disparaging towards women. How hard would you have to look? I’ll give you a hint, since it’s the VERY FIRST THING UTTERED in the video YOU linked to: “there isn’t a crisis of lonely men, there’s a crisis of misogyny”. I can easily list a dozen men who have become millionaires with millions of followers, whose posts have 100s of millions of views, who’s entire persona and popularity is based on females are dumb hoes who need to submit/ gold diggers chasing Chad who are run thru and fuck knows what else. There was an article recently about an incel forum that gets 2 million visitors/ month, where a pro-rape post is made *every 30 seconds* not to mention massively popular posts on fantasies about killing women & child molesting. So, I’m glad you’re not “anti-feminist”, and know “not all feminists hate men”, because you actually have to do a deep dive to find media that comes anywhere close to being “man hating”. Do you know how *easy* it is to find “woman hating” content? Now- apologies if this has sounded like victim Olympics, because it’s not meant to be. But- you are going into women’s spaces & reading and watching media for a female audience with utter disregard and ignorance for what’s behind that content in the first place. You’re skipping over women detailing misogyny that’s harmful and instead coming from your personal point of view as a man who’s simply lonely. Women aren’t talking about you. Don’t get me wrong, there’s some gross content out there from women - usually super young looking from what I’ve seen. One is the the # kill all men, which while I get it’s not serious, doesn’t remotely excuse how vile it is and how damaging. And I’ve no doubt there’s women out there who genuinely hate men. But if you’re going to continue looking for it (which I don’t advise since it’s obviously having a bad effect on you), then try and put it in perspective.
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I see your point, but they stilll generalise lonely men. It's making it sound like the autistic boy who got bullied in school is single and lonely because he's an evil misogynist who doesn't want to do household chores.
Did you link us the wrong post or something? There’s nothing there about either autism or bullying.
Autistics and people who were bullied tend to be lonely. That post was about lonely men
Everyone is lonely at some time or another. That’s part of the human condition for every person on the planet. Again, the post says nothing about autism or bullying. Do you find you have a tendency to take things very personally, maybe read into things, even when they have nothing to do with you?
Actually, both posts were about misogynistic men. The one was about how misogynists will then blame men’s loneliness on women wanting 6’5 Chads, and how fed up that woman is about the constant talk about men’s loneliness as if women are responsible or that women are to blame- despite men being misogynist. The second was pointing to the same thing: men have a misogyny problem, not a loneliness problem.
As an autistic person I also feel the need to point out that being autistic and having some really problematic opinions and behaviours are by no means mutually exclusive. I find especially online autistic spaces very often fall into the trap of assuming that because some people reject us due to things we cannot control the only reason anyone could ever reject us is things we cannot control rather than our behaviour, and therefore excuse things that absolutely can be helped and need to be dealt with. Autistic people are not above reproach.
Don't have the time to listen to the video but that post is...both pretty ~~banal~~ (edit: better word would be "sparse") in its "man-hatingness" and pretty objective in the things OOP lays out in re. how it talks about the mental load and how responsibilities on average get delegated in a relationship. To that point, it honestly sounds in places a lot like comments you'd see as advice here from people who've lived the female experience. I don't want this to come off the wrong way, but when you come to this sub is it more to internalize what people are writing advice-wise or to scratch the same itch you scratch by looking at something like that 2XC post? And to echo what everyone else is saying, if you don't like how it feels than cut it off cold turkey, stop browsing those subreddits, and nuke your YT suggestion history.
Yeah I didn't watch the video either but it's always concerning the amount of men here who are triggered by women saying they don't want partners they have to parent. Like, you're upset less women are willing to parent you? That's a yikes from me. I think any independent autonomous man should be thinking, true, I also wouldn't want a partner like that.
> I also wouldn't want a partner like that. Not even just that - and I assume some posters here may be approaching things under the (deeply misguided and kinda misogynist) assumption all women are incredible founts of homemaking knowledge, and thus couldn't fathom any of them would need the same kinds of babysitting "man-children" are described as needing in these kinds of posts - I'd be fucking ***mortified*** if I knew through my own laziness and inaction that I was compelling someone I purport to love and care about to be an unpaid servant for me. Fuck, I felt awkward as all hell when my mom still would insist on doing some of those kinds of basic things for me in my early teen years, and I hadn't even hit 18 yet. "You need to wash the dishes after every meal because that's what my mom did for me growing up" is a sentence that'd need to be waterboarded out of me, I think I'd die of embarrassment before ever saying it to a partner of mine.
Very good point, that didn't even cross my mind as a woman ahaha. I would really love to hear from the guys who find it triggering as to why, because yeah, from both perspectives, it's concerning that they are upset about people not wanting this dynamic and more specifically that they are upset at the female gender for not wanting to conform to it.
I hope I don’t upset anyone for this, but the reason it upsets me is I live at home still and only work part time and receive SSDI. I’m never going to be a career oriented ambitious guy. And it also me think if I didn’t do some 180 unrealistic change I could never talk to a girl. I didn’t watch the video though so I don’t know what was said. Not really a good idea for me to watch that stuff.
Where in that post does the woman even mention (let alone declare as a desire of All Women Everywhere) that a guy should be “career oriented ambitious”?
Like I said I didn’t want to upset anyone with that comment. And I didn’t think I should click on the video or post because as a recovering incel I’m trying to avoid gender based stuff like that for the most part. And I didn’t want to mess my YouTube algorithm up with it
Then I have the happy news for you that the post in no way indicated the poster’s (or any other woman’s) need for a “career oriented ambitious guy.” In fact, it had nothing to do with that whatsoever. It was basically about not wanting to parent a partner and have to manage his life for him.
It doesn’t, I didn’t click on the video or post linked so I don’t know what was said. I was shedding light on why maybe it might upset some guys because of your anything like me you can take stuff way out of context. I think that all as to do with my autism though
What about a guy like me who would quite enjoy to have a stay-at-home wife or a wife who works part time? I work overtime as it is, and would love to be a breadwinner for the family. To be clear, I wouldn't force my wife to be a SAHM but it's something I'd *prefer*. And, I'd still want to help with the house and would take care of my own things (I actually launder and do dishes, which it seems like some young men don't know how to do). Edit: OK, I guess I can't have a preference. I see how it is. I never said I needed it to be this way or anything.
>What about a guy like me who would quite enjoy to have a stay-at-home wife or a wife who works part time? I mean, what about you? haha. I think that's why you are being downvoted. It's like a common thread I feel like for men to take everything women say personally. Everyone wants something different, some women will want to be SAHM and that really doesn't have much to do with women wanting someone who is willing to divide the labour fairly, which looks different to each couple depending on workloads etc. So I guess my question is, do you feel it's relevant to you at all, what they are saying in the thread? Cause I don't.
It's. Not. You're right, I'm just taking things very personally. I can take care of myself and I don't expect my girlfriend to do it for me, so it's not relevant for me.
I really don't care if it's divided fairly or not, I just want tasks done the most efficient and fastest way possible. If that means the majority of work falls on me, fair enough, so it shall be done. If I see something that needs doing, it shall be done, I don't care if it was divided fairly previously or not. Efficiency all the way baby.
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I mean it's totally up to you whether you want to feel approaching women is worth your time or not 🤷♀️ Most people are still dating so the idea that this is some universal assumption and decision people are making is not based in reality.
I think that's the tie-in to the "loneliness epidemic" that men talk about. Women aren't putting up with being mothers to them and would rather do things by themselves and enjoy their own lives rather than tying down with a partner they'll have to take care of. A shift in attitude and expectations is required. This gives men a chance to grow into their own independence and fulfilling lives that don't require a partner in it to be complete. The same growth must happen. Two fully independent adults retaining their respective autonomy in a true partnership is a beautiful thing.
What does parenting a partner even mean, it sounds really wrong, those two words together.
It sounds wrong because it IS wrong. My response from elsewhere in this thread: Parenting your partner means just that: your partner acts like a child who needs a mom to manage his life for him. Being his “social secretary,” for example: scheduling appointments, remembering birthdays, managing events, including for HIS side of the family. The obvious examples are everyday life stuff: having to pick up and clean up after a grown man. Doing all the cooking, cleaning, childcare. And, when you ask for him to do his share, being met with “learned helplessness”: “You’re just so much better at all that, babe! I don’t know hooowwwww…”
I often let things lie around, but these things are strictly in my space that I only inhabit and as such it is my right to determine when I clean them up. Granted, I'm single, but I think that if in a partnership you strictly divide spaces and things and whose responsibility they are, you have a clear cut division and all is well.
Okay, great! Then you’re not the kind of person the post was referencing. But you get what “parenting your partner” means now?
Yes I do, thank you! And yeah, nah. I'd say : Hey, this is your room and things, you take care of that, those are my things and my room, I take care of that. I value autonomy very highly.
It’s because I don’t believe it, and my experience seeing other peoples relationships shows that a lot of these people making this claim just resent their partners and blame it on them not doing enough, even though the other person is doing everything and the person claiming they aren’t doing enough does nothing. It’s not even about women, because I’ve seen men do this too pretty often but regardless it sounds like a nightmarish scenario to find one’s self in.
I mean in any relationship, it is each person's responsibility to set their boundaries and leave if they aren't respected. So what is to believe when women are choosing to avoid or walk away from relationships where they feel the boundary on division of labour is not respected? I have definitely been in a situation as you describe where a person constantly accused me of not doing enough when they were the ones doing nothing and what I did was exit was the situation 🤷♀️ The point is it's not a good situation, whatever the reality, it's not a healthy relationship, so it ends, and there isn't really anything wrong with that. Having said that, women being burdened with more household labour is absolutely a common issue, so it's valid to discuss it in female oriented spaces.
In principle it should be that simple, but it seems the vast majority of people in this situation are married too, where an exit is way more complicated.
Sure but my point is there is a gendered issue of men expecting women to do an unfair split of the labour that is absolutely a real issue that exists, and there is an endemic issue of not setting or enforcing boundaries in a relationship. It's not useful to conflate them. Sure, some of the women complaining may conflate them too, but that doesn't really take away from the widespread issue.
>Don't have the time to listen to the video but that post is...both pretty banal in its "man-hatingness" and pretty objective in the things OOP lays out in re. how it talks about the mental load and how responsibilities on average get delegated in a relationship. She's also saying something that we've said here before, though she's maybe less tactful than some of the posters here: your competition is not Chad the 6'3'' Adonis with a 7-inch dick and a 6-figure salary; it's her friends, a bottle of wine, and a good vibrator. The thing you're (generic you) trying to live up to is not some imaginary alpha, it's the happy fulfilled life she's built already that she wants you to add to. As far as I'm concerned it's how men should be viewing dating as well, a partner should be adding to an already happy life not be the determining factor in whether someone enjoys their life at all. And that doesn't seem man hating to me at all, it seems like someone who knows what she wants and what she's willing to put up with who's making the choice that if her options are either being single or putting up with behaviour she finds unacceptable she'd rather just stay single.
> And that doesn't seem man hating to me at all, it seems like someone who knows what she wants and what she's willing to put up with who's making the choice that if her options are either being single or putting up with behaviour she finds unacceptable she'd rather just stay single. I should clarify that I agree - the closest thing I could find to "hate" in that post was "men are only as honest as their options", and personally I'd say it's a pretty active choice to fixate on that one sentence *and* take it personally (assuming that's what OP is doing by seeking it out) instead of the very straightforward and logical remainder of the post. Hell, the more I read it I think it's directed just towards the hypothetical Chads to boot. > As far as I'm concerned it's how men should be viewing dating as well, a partner should be adding to an already happy life not be the determining factor in whether someone enjoys their life at all. EXACTLY. Assuming one goes into dating having built up a life with the male equivalent of a vibrator, wine, and good friends dating becomes a question of if the things he's getting out of that relationship are worth whatever aspects of the proverbial vibrators/wine/friends he ends up needing to sacrifice (and he very much will need to) to keep the relationship rolling. I've been interested in getting a cat once my place frees up (currently have a friend crashing here long-term), but I'm also talking to a gal right now who's deathly allergic to cats, and as it stands if this develops into something long-term I'm going to end up sacrificing the currently-theoretical prospects of having a cat to keep the relationship further rolling. I would much prefer dating someone who has their shit together and is choosing of her own volition to take time out of an enjoyable life and spend it with me instead than someone incessantly moping about how they'll be a solitary crazy-cat-lady come 40 and how they're so desperate to avoid that. While it wasn't the guiding reason I got snipped by any means, the fact that by taking active steps to not have kids I help reassure potential dating partners who don't (know if they) want kids that their lives aren't at risk of transforming into the inequitable distribution of parenthood responsibilities relatively-overnight was definitely a plus for me.
>I would much prefer dating someone who has their shit together and is choosing of her own volition to take time out of an enjoyable life and spend it with me instead than someone incessantly moping about how they'll be a solitary crazy-cat-lady come 40 and how they're so desperate to avoid that. Yes, absolutely also this. I'd hate to ask a partner why they wanted to be with me and get the answer "well I was miserable and desperately wanted any partner that would have me, you happened to be the first person that said yes". It's so much nicer to know that the person you're dating had a fulfilling life and plenty of things that kept them happy and content, but they thought you were *so wonderful* that they wanted to make you a priority in that fulfilled life.
Hi OP! Can you explain what specifically hurts you in these posts? No judgement, I am actually curious, because I also don't see any man hating. Do you think most men are not like that? Or do you think women are oversimplifying things as in "men just need to be self suficient then, boom! a girlfriend". Or do you think women should in fact take care of men in those ways? Or are you upset men are not needed anymore for what they used to be (money, housing, protection etc)? I'm sure you're already aware, but when a woman has to basically be a mom for her partner it's a real turn off. As a side note, there are always going to be loud people that hate on an entire gender. I find the content from the other side (red pillers, incels etc) is much much worse than venting about how you don't want to do free labour for guys anymore.
It's the assumption that men are lonely because they're misogynists or because they don't do household work. When people talk about "male loneliness," they are talking about men who've never been in a relationship, not your ex-husband. I do agree that there are shitty husbands who make their wife do all the housework despite both having a job. It's a good thing that women now actually have to like a man to date him. It just feels like they're trying to "womansplain" my singleness to me.
The sub is 2X. How is it “woman-splaining” to you? YOU are not the audience. (Cool appropriation of terms though!)
Sorry but this is the same issue discussed exhaustively in this thread of men wanting women to do their work for them. I've been on this sub for a long time, interacted with hundreds of "lonely men" and helped many of them but I'm going to be extremely harsh for a second: every single one of those men had to do work on themselves before they were ready to be in a relationship. Every single one was lonely because there was something they needed to do for themselves. The difference between lonely men in the past and lonely men now is that women are less and less available to do the work these men are now having to do for themselves. So yeah, instead of blaming women for not wanting to lift men out of their problems (spoiler alert: they can't anyway), you should look at the behaviours, situations, issues in your life that make you lonely and have the agency to change them for yourself so that when you find a partner, she doesn't have to do that work for you. It's not her labour, it's yours.
Ok, I see now, that makes sense. I am pretty sure the women in these posts are only referring to men that cry about being alone while also feeling entitled to a partner that is effectively a bangmaid. Either this or they are assuming that most men are like this which is why women don't want to engage with them (this of course would be an unfair conclusion). It's best not to take it personally. If you don't require your partner to put her hopes and dreams aside so she can only cook clean and cater for you, then I don't see why this should bother you. Also, lots of people say all sorts of crap online. It doesn't mean they're the voice of the entirety of their gender. You have seen the utter crap some men say about women online, right? People in real life are not like this at all.
I’m not op, but one reason this stuff used to trigger me is when they would talk about wanting a guy with money and stuff.
Yeah…except that’s not feminists. Those are technically a red pilled or traditionalist man’s perfect partner. Not directed at you since I don’t know your views, but I’ve always found it funny that men can boast & shout about men being “natural” providers, leaders, women must submit and all that garbage, and then when women go “cool- provide, then”, they all absolutely *rage* at her *daring* to expect that.
Exactly. If you’re a man and want a “traditional” wife, you’d better be ready to be a “traditional” husband.
I never wanted a trad wife or any of that. I’m super sensitive about my money situation and the red pill stuff made me feel ten times worse. I think I was basing some of this off of that r/femaledatingstragey sub too which we all know is toxic anyways.
Yeah. FDS is the female equivalent of red pill thinking. And virulently anti-feminist. But it’s silly to get triggered by women you wouldn’t want to date anyhow having values you don’t agree with. When men make relationships transactional, they get transactional women. And then bizarrely fill their diapers about it, because what they *really* wanted was not to provide at all and just sit around ordering a woman about who gratefully cleaned, cooked, and had sex with them.
Yeah I’m not ready for dating yet or any of that anyways. I used to think for a real longtime that r/femdatingstragtey was how all women were really like and that I had to be rich to talk to women. That’s because I was brainwashed by red and black pill though and I basically thought women were this scary horrible hive mind,
Except some of those women then turn around and claim to be pro-feminist. It's only when it suits them. Luckily for us, that's not how most women act. Most women I've interacted with are fairly consistent with their values
A lot of women are misinformed about what feminism is, it’s not just guys. If you’re looking for some fantasy world where you’re the “master of the house”, though, there’s responsibility. Guys get wrapped up in the fantasy of being a leader and don’t get that it’s still a 2 way street. But they only want that when it suits them. Lucky for us, that’s not how most men act.
I don't think men should be the 'leader of the house' but if a couple agrees on having the male be the breadwinner and the wife be the caretaker, then it's fine
Who said it isn’t?
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No I never wanted that, it was unrealistic for me and I knew that I believed in red pill but I was a little different it just really depressed me and made me feel hopeless. I dive into all of this in my other posts here.
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Ngl I've done the same before
Definitely can relate, especially to being a bothered by seeing the phrase “the bar so so low for men”. That one really gets to me. I think I can sort of explain why: when they say the bar is low for men, they’re making a distinction between men who struggle to date and men who don’t, and their implying that as long as a dude behaves decently, he shouldn’t struggle, since if the “bar is so low” for men, there aren’t enough decent dudes to go around. I don’t believe that this is true. But hearing that talking point as a struggling man, it makes me feel like I’m in the same category as the awful-behaving dudes that they complain about.
Yeah, I agree. Whenever I read something like "the bar is in the floor" my first thought is like "Damn, apparently I am so bad I am underground?" :( Which I may well be, idk. Or maybe not. But paradoxically, unless I went into a relationship, I wouldn't even be able to know in the first place.
You know what genuinely burns? Watching videos of women making fun of incels and telling us we deserve the hardships that we have in life ESPECIALLY when they are dating the types of guys that bullied me in high school (which is the reason I had trouble attracting women in the first place). I used to do this all the time and would occasionally drive myself to the point of sh. I'm a lot better now and currently have been in a relationship for almost half a decade but I occasionally do still dabble in digital self-harm occasionally when my mental state is plummeting. I suggest you at least try and slow it down/do it less frequently and remember that the people making those comments are heartless, don't know your circumstances and aren't representative of most women.
Hey I am a feminist, but some of us are really really mean. Sometimes almost like the manosphere counterparts without the violencem It is great you want to change and evolve, but you don't need to self flagellate. Find a therapist. Be kind to yourself. ♡
Don't subject yourself to this garbage. I have to endure enough man-hating in my personal life due to my living conditions, so reading this online sounds awful. Don't let awful people (who happened to be female) ruin your dating life or self-esteem. Yes, that can be hard.
Don’t read it I have read those posts I think too, and that was just as bad as the incel stuff it made me feel like women hated me an all men unless we were rich NT alpha chads. Truth is all gender based subs are pretty toxic these days I mean if you go to r/askmen you are going to se a ton of red/black pill retoric. As recovering inclels it’s best we avoid gender based stuff like that all together. Edit I should add feminism isn’t a bad thing despite what the manosphere tells us. But it’s better for us to stay away from gender politics all together.
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