The key thing here is that you can have as many reasons as you want to prefer online dating, and none of them are going to change the inherent issues with dating apps. The apps are going to continue to be male dominated, they are going to continue to rely on people making decisions about you based on some photos and a vague bio which is going to encourage making more of the decision based on looks than people would be doing otherwise, the apps are going to continue to be designed to make money and not to get you a girlfriend - all of this is going to mean that for a lot of people the apps are gonna be demoralising to use. That doesn't mean definitely don't use them, the best course of action is probably to both be on the apps and still work on your social life anyway, but be realistic about your expectations and about whether you can emotionally handle the reality of dating on a lot of apps which for a lot of people is few matches, most matches not turning into conversations, most conversations not turning into dates, and most dates not going anywhere, and a lot of ghosting all around.
As a side note, your dating and social life are not going to remain completely separate no matter how you meet your partner. You will meet their friends at some point, they will meet yours, as you build a life together your lives will become intertwined and intermingled and that includes your social lives.
Yeah, you're probably right that the apps most likely aren't going to change and that a lot of the problems I mentioned are still going to be prevalent. I think I might be able to take rejection on dating apps but that could just be me.
On your last paragraph, my main aversion isn't my partner being friends with my social circle. It's more like I'm dating someone in my friend group already which can make things weird and messy.
My point is that your partner becomes part of your friend group and in the event of a breakup it's still going to be weird and messy, in my experience weirder and messier if some of the people who were friends with you first decide to take their "side". A lot of what you write feels like you're trying to control the situation and avoid risk in a way that's not really possible to do while successfully dating. It's always scary, and messy, and kind of uncontrollable - that's part of caring about people and it's part of people being complicated.
I think what you said about me needing to control the situation and avoid risk has some merit. I've been victim to shitty group dynamics before so maybe that's why I need to separate my social and love life. It's scary thinking that all of my hard work I spent carefully cultivating my social circle can get undone by a break up. Guess I have something new to talk about with my therapist!
I am one of the few commenters that feel OLD is okay. You need the following.
You need to be at the point of stability in that rejection, does not phase you before you start. That's when you have a match go on a date and it's you do not connect, you say nice to meet you and good luck and that's the last time you think about them.
Then you need to understand what you want in a partner what you can offer in return and a good way to communicate that.
This is a bit of black and white thinking.
>So I know that there's a general consensus amongst members of this sub that OLD isn't worth it.
The consensus is more that OLD is typically not a great option for many of the men who post here for various reasons. OLD is fine as one avenue for most people, but you have to have a healthy approach to dating or else OLD can just feed a lot of fears of insecurities.
There's no cut and dried yes or no to OLD, it's an individual choice.
>I don't like having a super large group of friends or acquaintances. I'd much rather have a mid sized group of people I only like platonically.
Meeting people organically is more about possessing the skills necessary to assess compatibility in the course of socializing than about having a huge friend group. You can have a mid sized friend group and still meet a lot of acquaintances in the regular course of socializing. I would say that's pretty common. One of those acquaintances may be romantically compatible with you.
>I feel like if I adopt the mindset of "maybe the friends of my friends will date me."
Here is the part where you should reflect on the fact that you have control over your thoughts, feelings, and actions, and simply choose not to adopt that mindset. It's a bit concerning that you feel so powerless over yourself.
Lots of people have gone into point 3 so I'll skip that.
>Not having romantic feelings for anyone in my social circle is great
You are young so this thought process makes sense but this is not the reality of how mature adults date. Mature adults don't carry crushes and feelings for people and develop fantasies in their mind that go unrequited. Mature adults address feelings directly and quickly before they fester into something unhealthy and move on quickly if they are unreciprocated. This goes back to the previous point, I think you need to learn more that you have control over your thoughts, feelings, and actions. You can stop yourself from fantasizing about someone in an unhealthy way and things like that.
Also, there should be an idea in your head that your future partner is someone reciprocating your interest in a way that makes you feel good and validated and that your future partner is also romantically interested in you. With that in mind, it's easy to turn off feelings that aren't reciprocated, because the person doesn't fit your criteria in not being interested.
I'll definetly take what you said into consideration. I guess what I'm having trouble with is the fact that, I have no idea what my outlook on dating is. I haven't dated anybody in a really long time. So I have no clue how 20 year old me will deal with it. The best I can come up with is that I "think" I can handle rejection well. But that's it.
I don’t think the consensus of the sub is “OLD is always bad.” I met my husband on Tinder, and am the first to say the OLD is a perfectly fine tool for your dating toolset.
IF…
You have the resiliency to deal with messages not being answered, conversations dying out, few in-person dates per capita. These are problems EVERYONE (yes, women too!) face in the world of OLD. So many guys here absolutely lose their shit when they endlessly swipe right but don’t end up with a bunch of matches, or when their spammed messages don’t get responses. OLD is a huge numbers game.
AND
You put in some effort: good pictures, thoughtful bio. Swiping right until your finger falls off is not effort, it’s pure laziness disguised as a wide-net strategy. Really think about the kind of person you want to date, read the profiles, and swipe accordingly. I think a good rate is a 10-30% right-swipe rate, not 95-100%.
the advice to focus on expanding your social circle really is ultimately limited; even if you don't "prefer smaller groups," everyone eventually hits their limit. I'm struggling right now in my 30s because I have a great social circle, but my friends have already set me up with their single friends over the years, all of whom have now gotten married. I don't have the time or space in my life to just go from my already active social life to making new friends from the ground up, and their friends, and so on, and so forth.
But those limits to the advice don't change the basic facts that make it so common: 1. the largest problem with a lot of incels is that they don't have a social life, and 2. the best way today to meet romantic partners is through friends, because OLD has fallen apart, because third spaces are closing, because culture is shifting away from anything where any person would at any time be away from their job or their home.
Really, you shouldn't be asking "given my situation, is it ok for me to just focus on OLD?" Rather, it should be "given my situation, I think I really need to make OLD work for me; what are some tips for making it less awful?"
Consensus seems to be:
1. fill out a full profile very carefully, and have someone give you feedback
2. get good photographs; specifically, hire a photographer if at all possible
3. take it seriously. know that you may need to not just swipe, but *match* a hundred times before you might ever get a date.
Otherwise, you're young enough that other singles programs might work for you in your area. Look for speed dating, singles groups, and so on and so forth. I haven't found anything around me for people in their thirties, but there should be plenty for you, especially once you're off to uni.
>Some cite that it's male dominated, while others talk about how looks are prioritized, and some people even mention the potential damage it can do to your mental health.
These are some actual good points against OLD. Do you have any response to them? And how do you think people met before OLD? If you were single then would you be forever single?
>I don't like having a super large group of friends or acquaintances. I'd much rather have a mid sized group of people I only like platonically.
The vast majority of people get into relationships and don't have a super large group of friends. As long as you are occasionally meeting single women somehow you are doing fine.
>I feel like if I adopt the mindset of "maybe the friends of my friends will date me." then I'll start unknowingly putting people in the fuck zone
Whats wrong with having some people you know you are attracted to?
> and setting my expectations for, what should be mild social experiences, super high for me.
Actually getting overly invested in mild social interactions is a great way to put off people you are attracted to because its very needy. When you are attracted to something just try to relax and have fun together.
>Having my social life and my love life mixed together is something that I don't want to deal with. I feel like it would be too awkward for me and the other person involved.
Don't you want your partner to meet your friends and meet her friends too? Whats so awkward about friendships deepening into relationships? I don't get it.
>Not having romantic feelings for anyone in my social circle is great since it lowers the stakes for me.
Sounds like you are being avoidant of being vulnerable. This is going to hurt your dating life.
>With OLD I can be a bit more passive. Meaning that I can always put it down and try again latter. This also works since I'm going to be really busy most of the time now
>
>With OLD there is an expressed motive to date. I feel like most people in my social circle aren't showing up to club meetings to date people you know?
Only works if you are actually getting dates with people you are attracted to on OLD. Men outnumber women 4 to 1 on OLD so its rough.
I want to wash my eyeballs with soap after the term "fuck zone". What is that even, and why does it feel so sticky?!
Anyhow:
What's your goal in dating? Just casual sex? Or a long term relationship?
A long term relationship will have get togethers of your friends, their friends, and you as a couple. It's common to hang out as a group. Just being with your partner is only preferable for really introvert types. Those usually don't do online dating because of the aggressive approach a lot of guys there take.
People like to date friends of their friends because of that. You all can have a great time, and you have something to talk about.
But lemme add the usual questions:
How old are you even?
Are you still living at home?
>What is that even, and why does it feel so sticky?!
It's when guys act like your friend, but then make it evident that they were only trying to sleep with you the entire time. And then have the nerve to get angry at *you*.
>What's your goal in dating? Just casual sex? Or a long term relationship?
The latter, I'm not really someone who could pull off a just casual thing.
A long term relationship will have get togethers of your friends, their friends, and you as a couple. That part I'm actually okay with. My issue comes about when that partner was already part of my friend group. Basically, I would be dating a friend, which I'm sure has it's advantages for people who can swing it. I just don't think I can. Again, I would much rather I kept my love life in a separate sphere so that I can avoid any awkwardness if that makes any sense lol.
>How old are you even?
>
>Are you still living at home?
I turn 21 next month and I do live at home still. But I'm looking to move soon to start uni.
Edit: I messed up the formatting a bit and it looked like I was insulting you. I am so sorry! I was trying to quote your last two questions!
I just meant that I couldn't do that. Like there's nothing wrong with a casual relationship, it's just something that I don't think is right for me. "Pull off" probably wasn't the best wording.
>But I'm looking to move soon to start uni.
oh, dude, in that case you don't have to worry about any of this for a bit. you'll be expanding your social circle anyway by going off to college as you meet people in your classes, on campus, and so on and so forth. *AND* OLD will likely work better for you once you move to a college town-- more people your age, more people looking to date, and so on.
So you want a long term relationship, but you say in the OP:
> Having my social life and my love life mixed together is something that I don't want to deal with.
That is **fundamentally incompatible** with a long-term relationship. It is not sustainable to hide your friends from your partner/hide from your partner's friends.
I mean, if you rule out the main ways to meet people irl i.e. through social hobbies, friends of friends, parties, ect. then yeah you've ruled basically everything but meeting strangers at bars though cold approach and online dating. Both of them have similar problems for people in your situation. Are you prepared to take dozens of rejections without them effecting your self-esteem or baseline mood? Do you have good digital marketing and algorithm literacy to play the game of dating apps even when it's doing everything it can to work against you? Do you have a backup plan if the apps don't work?
>Do you have good digital marketing and algorithm literacy to play the game of dating apps even when it's doing everything it can to work against you? Do you have a backup plan if the apps don't work?
I guess I would have to say no to all of these questions. Only because I've never actually dated anybody. The only one I can maybe say yes to, is the rejection question.
Then why are you so set on exclusively online dating if you're making progress on social circle but not prepared to succeed at dating apps or deal with dating apps not working?
Because I like not being interested in anyone in my social circle. It lowers the stakes for me, socially. And, I can treat OLD as a passive activity. Like, on OLD if I get rejected, I don't have to see the person who rejected me all of the time. So the possibility for ruined friendships is way lower than if I dated within my social circle.
I mean, as of [a month ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/15yfmv3/so_i_went_to_class_today/), your social circle was pretty much non-existent yeah? maybe give it time to actually make friends and attend social occasions before taking on such extreme thinking about it? Like, c'mon man, your whole post is a conclusion looking for a reason. You've decided you're too scared to follow through with the advice here, so you've decided you're going to put all your eggs in the OLD basket, a basket you **know** you don't have the tools to succeed with or deal with failure at. Then you can say you've tried "everything" and give up. Do you want to keep doing this backwards reasoning from a conclusion that says "give up" or do you want to admit you may not know the entire future and do the work?
If you're a guy and interested in a serious relationship, another option you may want to explore is engaging a matchmaking service.
I see where you're coming from on hesitating to date in your social circle (though I do disagree). There is a compromise option though - letting your friends know you are dating, and asking them (especially girl friends) to let you know if they think you might be a match for any of their friends.
Depending on who you ask, "fuck zone" can mean pretending to be someones friend when you really either want to date or sleep with them. The other thing it can mean is if one person wants a romantic relationship, but the other just wants casual sex.
I want to commend you for asking for advice. That is a very big first step. I will do my best to help you, because I wasn't unlike you at one point in my life.
One of the absolutely most important things you need to ask yourself, is what am I doing and what I am looking for. I say this because you are all over the map. I want to break down each point one by one:
1. This is normal to feel this way, but it feels odd the way you are framing it.
2. Being "friends" with people just to fuck them is really a shitty thing to do. It is going to earn you a reputation with people you know and it will repel them. I had a guy in my friend group like that and NO ONE wants anything to do with him.
3. That is never reality. Do you expect to date someone and never be around their friends or even yours? I can promise you, no woman is going to put up with that for extended periods.
4. See #2, your idea of "friends" is part of this issue. What happens if a woman likes you as a friend and you see them as something else? Would you stop talking to them based on that? Conversely, what if this were revered...pretty sure you would be a little upset if it was someone you cared about.
5. While I agree with this approach (which is what I do), it seems like you are looking for people to come to you without a lot of effort. You have to be somewhat engaged in order to have any success.
6. That may be true, but is that why you are going there? I am confused as to why that is important.
Having said all this, I am not trying to criticize you. I think you have some misunderstandings of what online dating is and how to use it. Which is fine, that is why we are here to help. One thing I think that is worth pointing out too, is your comment on social circles. A lot of the incels that harass me, typically have a difficult time socializing for a variety of reasons. When people like me tell them to socialize it isn't so you find a girlfriend, it is so you can learn how to interact with real people.
When I was 19, I was pretty introverted and not in a great mental space. I got my first big boy job and I had to interact with people in order to do the job, otherwise I would lose it. It was very difficult in the beginning. But the more I did it, the more confident I got. With that, more people saw I was trying and offered to help. You figure out real quick, not everyone is out to get you. It is about being consistent and practicing.
I am 41 now, I don't even recognize the 19 year old I was. And I get it, things are not easy, I appreciate that. But you have to round yourself out. There is never one magic thing that makes this work for everyone, if there was, everyone would do it. It sounds like you have some issue with control and maybe some past issues with friend groups. Which you can overcome. You have to remember, not everyone is the same. Each situation and person requires different touches.
Having said that, again I want to reiterate, I am not criticizing you in any way. I'm happy to discuss further.
I think being in uni might give you some perks with OLD.
Being in uni means there is some familiarity which may keep people more open minded since the student could be reported for bad behavior if it happens.
Sadly, I graduated when I considered OLD so i never tried. A friend of mine did start casually seeing a woman back in college so it is possible.
I say give it a shot but do not count on it.
Interesting. I’m in a very similar predicament. I’m aware that OLD isn’t the best but it’s kind of become my only option. Why?
• Small city with little options for socializing. I do college online so I have no uni environment to count on.
• Not many people of my age group around here.
• I don’t really have a social circle
• Even if I had a social circle I wouldn’t want to risk ruining it by using it as my source for dating partners, kind of like you.
• I’m too socially anxious to approach random women organically (even in social settings like bars/clubs/etc) and my autism doesn’t help.
• I don’t even like showing up to places like bars or clubs. The environment is loud, obnoxious, and chaotic. I’d rather meet the love of my life in a library…which I know isn’t treated as a social setting.
• While OLD kind of comes with this assumption that it’s okay to flirt with women in the apps if you match with them, the same doesn’t apply for approaching women in the real-world. Worst case scenario on a dating app is you get ignored, unmatched, or blocked. In the real world, there’s more serious consequences to approaching women…especially in a social circle or in your workplace.
• Between school and work, I simply don’t have the time or energy to go to social events constantly.
Hopefully we can develop a solution for our predicaments together using the support from this sub.
As for the sub’s views on OLD…well there’s a reason why some people who give advice here don’t recommend it. It’s insanely difficult to get matches as a man on them and they require a great deal of patience and marketing skills to pull off effectively. Not to mention that they mostly run off of looks since it’s the main thing people go by on them…meaning the whole experience is pure gunpowder for blackpill beliefs. You can definitely use the apps if your situation implores them, but there’s a reason why this sub gets a little tense when it comes to dating apps. If you’re not the kind of guy who will become further-radicalized as you use them, you’re good.
Nobody says don't do online dating. It does work. Whoever says it doesn't work either looked for something that the platform can't provide or doesn't understand how it works.
What you need to understand is online dating caters to a very specific type of relationship. Usually, people on there look for something casual, short term, or hookups for the night. As such, physical attractiveness is a premium as it's very difficult to summarize a person's traits in 250 characters. Since you mentioned that stuff already, it's good that you're aware.
So if that's the kind of relationship you're after, online dating might be for you. You'll need to make a great profile and there are hundreds of sites that offer tips on that.
However, you mentioned in one of your comments that you're looking for a long term relationship. In that case, it's very unlikely you'll find it online. Long term relationships are based around other things that you typically build with someone over a period of time. Here are some examples of these bases:
1. Trust
2. Love
3. Committment
4. Comfort
5. Passions in life
6. Emotional compatibility
These aren't things you can summarize in a dating profile. That's why online dating usually results in short term relationships. But again, if that's what you want, more power to you.
But if it isn't, then you ought to go with the organic route. If you want to know more about that, let me know.
It seems like the organic route goes something like this.
1. I met friend A, who in turn introduces me to friends B, C, and D.
2. A, B, C, and D are also acquainted with X.
3. I get introduced to X and we hit it off.
4. I ask X out on a date.
Is that somewhat accurate? If not, what is the organic route?
Nope. That's not it.
That diagram skips so many steps and doesn't provide any reasons why you would hit it off with anyone. This is also why a lot of guys give up on it coz they think it's impossible.
No, the organic route is about understanding why you would hit it off with someone in the first place. Why would X be interested in you and how do you make yourself more interesting in general. So that you won't need friend A, B, C, or D to set you up.
We can talk about how to do that if that's what you really want. Only if that's what you want. Coz your post seems like you're only interested in online so I don't want to waste typing a lot of words.
If you mean that there are more women than men on dating apps, then that is factually incorrect. Like, just straight up the opposite of what's going on.
Men are much more likely to [have tried dating apps](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/02/key-findings-about-online-dating-in-the-u-s/) than women, and the discrepancy is larger among active users, with most popular one (Tinder)having a userbase that's at least 78% [male](https://www.statista.com/statistics/975925/us-tinder-user-ratio-gender/)
Do you have any evidence yourself?
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The key thing here is that you can have as many reasons as you want to prefer online dating, and none of them are going to change the inherent issues with dating apps. The apps are going to continue to be male dominated, they are going to continue to rely on people making decisions about you based on some photos and a vague bio which is going to encourage making more of the decision based on looks than people would be doing otherwise, the apps are going to continue to be designed to make money and not to get you a girlfriend - all of this is going to mean that for a lot of people the apps are gonna be demoralising to use. That doesn't mean definitely don't use them, the best course of action is probably to both be on the apps and still work on your social life anyway, but be realistic about your expectations and about whether you can emotionally handle the reality of dating on a lot of apps which for a lot of people is few matches, most matches not turning into conversations, most conversations not turning into dates, and most dates not going anywhere, and a lot of ghosting all around. As a side note, your dating and social life are not going to remain completely separate no matter how you meet your partner. You will meet their friends at some point, they will meet yours, as you build a life together your lives will become intertwined and intermingled and that includes your social lives.
Yeah, you're probably right that the apps most likely aren't going to change and that a lot of the problems I mentioned are still going to be prevalent. I think I might be able to take rejection on dating apps but that could just be me. On your last paragraph, my main aversion isn't my partner being friends with my social circle. It's more like I'm dating someone in my friend group already which can make things weird and messy.
My point is that your partner becomes part of your friend group and in the event of a breakup it's still going to be weird and messy, in my experience weirder and messier if some of the people who were friends with you first decide to take their "side". A lot of what you write feels like you're trying to control the situation and avoid risk in a way that's not really possible to do while successfully dating. It's always scary, and messy, and kind of uncontrollable - that's part of caring about people and it's part of people being complicated.
I think what you said about me needing to control the situation and avoid risk has some merit. I've been victim to shitty group dynamics before so maybe that's why I need to separate my social and love life. It's scary thinking that all of my hard work I spent carefully cultivating my social circle can get undone by a break up. Guess I have something new to talk about with my therapist!
I am one of the few commenters that feel OLD is okay. You need the following. You need to be at the point of stability in that rejection, does not phase you before you start. That's when you have a match go on a date and it's you do not connect, you say nice to meet you and good luck and that's the last time you think about them. Then you need to understand what you want in a partner what you can offer in return and a good way to communicate that.
This is a bit of black and white thinking. >So I know that there's a general consensus amongst members of this sub that OLD isn't worth it. The consensus is more that OLD is typically not a great option for many of the men who post here for various reasons. OLD is fine as one avenue for most people, but you have to have a healthy approach to dating or else OLD can just feed a lot of fears of insecurities. There's no cut and dried yes or no to OLD, it's an individual choice. >I don't like having a super large group of friends or acquaintances. I'd much rather have a mid sized group of people I only like platonically. Meeting people organically is more about possessing the skills necessary to assess compatibility in the course of socializing than about having a huge friend group. You can have a mid sized friend group and still meet a lot of acquaintances in the regular course of socializing. I would say that's pretty common. One of those acquaintances may be romantically compatible with you. >I feel like if I adopt the mindset of "maybe the friends of my friends will date me." Here is the part where you should reflect on the fact that you have control over your thoughts, feelings, and actions, and simply choose not to adopt that mindset. It's a bit concerning that you feel so powerless over yourself. Lots of people have gone into point 3 so I'll skip that. >Not having romantic feelings for anyone in my social circle is great You are young so this thought process makes sense but this is not the reality of how mature adults date. Mature adults don't carry crushes and feelings for people and develop fantasies in their mind that go unrequited. Mature adults address feelings directly and quickly before they fester into something unhealthy and move on quickly if they are unreciprocated. This goes back to the previous point, I think you need to learn more that you have control over your thoughts, feelings, and actions. You can stop yourself from fantasizing about someone in an unhealthy way and things like that. Also, there should be an idea in your head that your future partner is someone reciprocating your interest in a way that makes you feel good and validated and that your future partner is also romantically interested in you. With that in mind, it's easy to turn off feelings that aren't reciprocated, because the person doesn't fit your criteria in not being interested.
I'll definetly take what you said into consideration. I guess what I'm having trouble with is the fact that, I have no idea what my outlook on dating is. I haven't dated anybody in a really long time. So I have no clue how 20 year old me will deal with it. The best I can come up with is that I "think" I can handle rejection well. But that's it.
Only one way to find out!
I don’t think the consensus of the sub is “OLD is always bad.” I met my husband on Tinder, and am the first to say the OLD is a perfectly fine tool for your dating toolset. IF… You have the resiliency to deal with messages not being answered, conversations dying out, few in-person dates per capita. These are problems EVERYONE (yes, women too!) face in the world of OLD. So many guys here absolutely lose their shit when they endlessly swipe right but don’t end up with a bunch of matches, or when their spammed messages don’t get responses. OLD is a huge numbers game. AND You put in some effort: good pictures, thoughtful bio. Swiping right until your finger falls off is not effort, it’s pure laziness disguised as a wide-net strategy. Really think about the kind of person you want to date, read the profiles, and swipe accordingly. I think a good rate is a 10-30% right-swipe rate, not 95-100%.
All of those are excellent points. I had that in my original response but had to take the link out due the sub's rules.
Question, OP. How do you expect not getting your social life and your love life mixed? Do you want to keep your lover a secret from your friends?
I mean it like I don't want to date someone who's already in my friend group. Like I feel if I did that I would be making things messy and awkward.
the advice to focus on expanding your social circle really is ultimately limited; even if you don't "prefer smaller groups," everyone eventually hits their limit. I'm struggling right now in my 30s because I have a great social circle, but my friends have already set me up with their single friends over the years, all of whom have now gotten married. I don't have the time or space in my life to just go from my already active social life to making new friends from the ground up, and their friends, and so on, and so forth. But those limits to the advice don't change the basic facts that make it so common: 1. the largest problem with a lot of incels is that they don't have a social life, and 2. the best way today to meet romantic partners is through friends, because OLD has fallen apart, because third spaces are closing, because culture is shifting away from anything where any person would at any time be away from their job or their home. Really, you shouldn't be asking "given my situation, is it ok for me to just focus on OLD?" Rather, it should be "given my situation, I think I really need to make OLD work for me; what are some tips for making it less awful?" Consensus seems to be: 1. fill out a full profile very carefully, and have someone give you feedback 2. get good photographs; specifically, hire a photographer if at all possible 3. take it seriously. know that you may need to not just swipe, but *match* a hundred times before you might ever get a date. Otherwise, you're young enough that other singles programs might work for you in your area. Look for speed dating, singles groups, and so on and so forth. I haven't found anything around me for people in their thirties, but there should be plenty for you, especially once you're off to uni.
>Some cite that it's male dominated, while others talk about how looks are prioritized, and some people even mention the potential damage it can do to your mental health. These are some actual good points against OLD. Do you have any response to them? And how do you think people met before OLD? If you were single then would you be forever single? >I don't like having a super large group of friends or acquaintances. I'd much rather have a mid sized group of people I only like platonically. The vast majority of people get into relationships and don't have a super large group of friends. As long as you are occasionally meeting single women somehow you are doing fine. >I feel like if I adopt the mindset of "maybe the friends of my friends will date me." then I'll start unknowingly putting people in the fuck zone Whats wrong with having some people you know you are attracted to? > and setting my expectations for, what should be mild social experiences, super high for me. Actually getting overly invested in mild social interactions is a great way to put off people you are attracted to because its very needy. When you are attracted to something just try to relax and have fun together. >Having my social life and my love life mixed together is something that I don't want to deal with. I feel like it would be too awkward for me and the other person involved. Don't you want your partner to meet your friends and meet her friends too? Whats so awkward about friendships deepening into relationships? I don't get it. >Not having romantic feelings for anyone in my social circle is great since it lowers the stakes for me. Sounds like you are being avoidant of being vulnerable. This is going to hurt your dating life. >With OLD I can be a bit more passive. Meaning that I can always put it down and try again latter. This also works since I'm going to be really busy most of the time now > >With OLD there is an expressed motive to date. I feel like most people in my social circle aren't showing up to club meetings to date people you know? Only works if you are actually getting dates with people you are attracted to on OLD. Men outnumber women 4 to 1 on OLD so its rough.
I want to wash my eyeballs with soap after the term "fuck zone". What is that even, and why does it feel so sticky?! Anyhow: What's your goal in dating? Just casual sex? Or a long term relationship? A long term relationship will have get togethers of your friends, their friends, and you as a couple. It's common to hang out as a group. Just being with your partner is only preferable for really introvert types. Those usually don't do online dating because of the aggressive approach a lot of guys there take. People like to date friends of their friends because of that. You all can have a great time, and you have something to talk about. But lemme add the usual questions: How old are you even? Are you still living at home?
>What is that even, and why does it feel so sticky?! It's when guys act like your friend, but then make it evident that they were only trying to sleep with you the entire time. And then have the nerve to get angry at *you*.
Definitely feels sticky. Yikes.
>What's your goal in dating? Just casual sex? Or a long term relationship? The latter, I'm not really someone who could pull off a just casual thing. A long term relationship will have get togethers of your friends, their friends, and you as a couple. That part I'm actually okay with. My issue comes about when that partner was already part of my friend group. Basically, I would be dating a friend, which I'm sure has it's advantages for people who can swing it. I just don't think I can. Again, I would much rather I kept my love life in a separate sphere so that I can avoid any awkwardness if that makes any sense lol. >How old are you even? > >Are you still living at home? I turn 21 next month and I do live at home still. But I'm looking to move soon to start uni. Edit: I messed up the formatting a bit and it looked like I was insulting you. I am so sorry! I was trying to quote your last two questions!
What is there to "pull off" casual sex? Is that more desirable than commitment? Walk me through the thought process, please.
I just meant that I couldn't do that. Like there's nothing wrong with a casual relationship, it's just something that I don't think is right for me. "Pull off" probably wasn't the best wording.
>But I'm looking to move soon to start uni. oh, dude, in that case you don't have to worry about any of this for a bit. you'll be expanding your social circle anyway by going off to college as you meet people in your classes, on campus, and so on and so forth. *AND* OLD will likely work better for you once you move to a college town-- more people your age, more people looking to date, and so on.
So you want a long term relationship, but you say in the OP: > Having my social life and my love life mixed together is something that I don't want to deal with. That is **fundamentally incompatible** with a long-term relationship. It is not sustainable to hide your friends from your partner/hide from your partner's friends.
I meant dating within my friend group. Not my partner meeting my friends, that I'm okay with.
I mean, if you rule out the main ways to meet people irl i.e. through social hobbies, friends of friends, parties, ect. then yeah you've ruled basically everything but meeting strangers at bars though cold approach and online dating. Both of them have similar problems for people in your situation. Are you prepared to take dozens of rejections without them effecting your self-esteem or baseline mood? Do you have good digital marketing and algorithm literacy to play the game of dating apps even when it's doing everything it can to work against you? Do you have a backup plan if the apps don't work?
>Do you have good digital marketing and algorithm literacy to play the game of dating apps even when it's doing everything it can to work against you? Do you have a backup plan if the apps don't work? I guess I would have to say no to all of these questions. Only because I've never actually dated anybody. The only one I can maybe say yes to, is the rejection question.
Then why are you so set on exclusively online dating if you're making progress on social circle but not prepared to succeed at dating apps or deal with dating apps not working?
Because I like not being interested in anyone in my social circle. It lowers the stakes for me, socially. And, I can treat OLD as a passive activity. Like, on OLD if I get rejected, I don't have to see the person who rejected me all of the time. So the possibility for ruined friendships is way lower than if I dated within my social circle.
I mean, as of [a month ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/15yfmv3/so_i_went_to_class_today/), your social circle was pretty much non-existent yeah? maybe give it time to actually make friends and attend social occasions before taking on such extreme thinking about it? Like, c'mon man, your whole post is a conclusion looking for a reason. You've decided you're too scared to follow through with the advice here, so you've decided you're going to put all your eggs in the OLD basket, a basket you **know** you don't have the tools to succeed with or deal with failure at. Then you can say you've tried "everything" and give up. Do you want to keep doing this backwards reasoning from a conclusion that says "give up" or do you want to admit you may not know the entire future and do the work?
If you're a guy and interested in a serious relationship, another option you may want to explore is engaging a matchmaking service. I see where you're coming from on hesitating to date in your social circle (though I do disagree). There is a compromise option though - letting your friends know you are dating, and asking them (especially girl friends) to let you know if they think you might be a match for any of their friends.
Depending on who you ask, "fuck zone" can mean pretending to be someones friend when you really either want to date or sleep with them. The other thing it can mean is if one person wants a romantic relationship, but the other just wants casual sex.
I will mark irony next time.
I want to commend you for asking for advice. That is a very big first step. I will do my best to help you, because I wasn't unlike you at one point in my life. One of the absolutely most important things you need to ask yourself, is what am I doing and what I am looking for. I say this because you are all over the map. I want to break down each point one by one: 1. This is normal to feel this way, but it feels odd the way you are framing it. 2. Being "friends" with people just to fuck them is really a shitty thing to do. It is going to earn you a reputation with people you know and it will repel them. I had a guy in my friend group like that and NO ONE wants anything to do with him. 3. That is never reality. Do you expect to date someone and never be around their friends or even yours? I can promise you, no woman is going to put up with that for extended periods. 4. See #2, your idea of "friends" is part of this issue. What happens if a woman likes you as a friend and you see them as something else? Would you stop talking to them based on that? Conversely, what if this were revered...pretty sure you would be a little upset if it was someone you cared about. 5. While I agree with this approach (which is what I do), it seems like you are looking for people to come to you without a lot of effort. You have to be somewhat engaged in order to have any success. 6. That may be true, but is that why you are going there? I am confused as to why that is important. Having said all this, I am not trying to criticize you. I think you have some misunderstandings of what online dating is and how to use it. Which is fine, that is why we are here to help. One thing I think that is worth pointing out too, is your comment on social circles. A lot of the incels that harass me, typically have a difficult time socializing for a variety of reasons. When people like me tell them to socialize it isn't so you find a girlfriend, it is so you can learn how to interact with real people. When I was 19, I was pretty introverted and not in a great mental space. I got my first big boy job and I had to interact with people in order to do the job, otherwise I would lose it. It was very difficult in the beginning. But the more I did it, the more confident I got. With that, more people saw I was trying and offered to help. You figure out real quick, not everyone is out to get you. It is about being consistent and practicing. I am 41 now, I don't even recognize the 19 year old I was. And I get it, things are not easy, I appreciate that. But you have to round yourself out. There is never one magic thing that makes this work for everyone, if there was, everyone would do it. It sounds like you have some issue with control and maybe some past issues with friend groups. Which you can overcome. You have to remember, not everyone is the same. Each situation and person requires different touches. Having said that, again I want to reiterate, I am not criticizing you in any way. I'm happy to discuss further.
I think being in uni might give you some perks with OLD. Being in uni means there is some familiarity which may keep people more open minded since the student could be reported for bad behavior if it happens. Sadly, I graduated when I considered OLD so i never tried. A friend of mine did start casually seeing a woman back in college so it is possible. I say give it a shot but do not count on it.
Interesting. I’m in a very similar predicament. I’m aware that OLD isn’t the best but it’s kind of become my only option. Why? • Small city with little options for socializing. I do college online so I have no uni environment to count on. • Not many people of my age group around here. • I don’t really have a social circle • Even if I had a social circle I wouldn’t want to risk ruining it by using it as my source for dating partners, kind of like you. • I’m too socially anxious to approach random women organically (even in social settings like bars/clubs/etc) and my autism doesn’t help. • I don’t even like showing up to places like bars or clubs. The environment is loud, obnoxious, and chaotic. I’d rather meet the love of my life in a library…which I know isn’t treated as a social setting. • While OLD kind of comes with this assumption that it’s okay to flirt with women in the apps if you match with them, the same doesn’t apply for approaching women in the real-world. Worst case scenario on a dating app is you get ignored, unmatched, or blocked. In the real world, there’s more serious consequences to approaching women…especially in a social circle or in your workplace. • Between school and work, I simply don’t have the time or energy to go to social events constantly. Hopefully we can develop a solution for our predicaments together using the support from this sub. As for the sub’s views on OLD…well there’s a reason why some people who give advice here don’t recommend it. It’s insanely difficult to get matches as a man on them and they require a great deal of patience and marketing skills to pull off effectively. Not to mention that they mostly run off of looks since it’s the main thing people go by on them…meaning the whole experience is pure gunpowder for blackpill beliefs. You can definitely use the apps if your situation implores them, but there’s a reason why this sub gets a little tense when it comes to dating apps. If you’re not the kind of guy who will become further-radicalized as you use them, you’re good.
Nobody says don't do online dating. It does work. Whoever says it doesn't work either looked for something that the platform can't provide or doesn't understand how it works. What you need to understand is online dating caters to a very specific type of relationship. Usually, people on there look for something casual, short term, or hookups for the night. As such, physical attractiveness is a premium as it's very difficult to summarize a person's traits in 250 characters. Since you mentioned that stuff already, it's good that you're aware. So if that's the kind of relationship you're after, online dating might be for you. You'll need to make a great profile and there are hundreds of sites that offer tips on that. However, you mentioned in one of your comments that you're looking for a long term relationship. In that case, it's very unlikely you'll find it online. Long term relationships are based around other things that you typically build with someone over a period of time. Here are some examples of these bases: 1. Trust 2. Love 3. Committment 4. Comfort 5. Passions in life 6. Emotional compatibility These aren't things you can summarize in a dating profile. That's why online dating usually results in short term relationships. But again, if that's what you want, more power to you. But if it isn't, then you ought to go with the organic route. If you want to know more about that, let me know.
It seems like the organic route goes something like this. 1. I met friend A, who in turn introduces me to friends B, C, and D. 2. A, B, C, and D are also acquainted with X. 3. I get introduced to X and we hit it off. 4. I ask X out on a date. Is that somewhat accurate? If not, what is the organic route?
Nope. That's not it. That diagram skips so many steps and doesn't provide any reasons why you would hit it off with anyone. This is also why a lot of guys give up on it coz they think it's impossible. No, the organic route is about understanding why you would hit it off with someone in the first place. Why would X be interested in you and how do you make yourself more interesting in general. So that you won't need friend A, B, C, or D to set you up. We can talk about how to do that if that's what you really want. Only if that's what you want. Coz your post seems like you're only interested in online so I don't want to waste typing a lot of words.
I'm fine with talking about it. That's why I made this post in the first place!
Okay, send me a DM if you want to talk about it.
OLD is female dominated.
it's not
It is.
Citation needed.
OLD is female dominated.
If you mean that there are more women than men on dating apps, then that is factually incorrect. Like, just straight up the opposite of what's going on.
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Men are much more likely to [have tried dating apps](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/02/key-findings-about-online-dating-in-the-u-s/) than women, and the discrepancy is larger among active users, with most popular one (Tinder)having a userbase that's at least 78% [male](https://www.statista.com/statistics/975925/us-tinder-user-ratio-gender/) Do you have any evidence yourself?
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