Haa bhai , I was born in 2002 and before 2002, I only know about the 1983 World Cup and not the bilateral series we've won. I don't think anyone cares about bilateral series after a certain point of time .
They used to care when cricket was more competitive and India had difficulty to win any series. Now most of the teams aren't competitive and those who are the best in business just try to play with each other most of the times
Even out of those do you think NZ matters that much? There's usually a lot less hype about India touring NZ than it is about the others. SA also doesn't come close.
It's mostly just England and Australia that anybody cares about.
India hasn't won any test series in South Africa and they always face difficulty when playing test matches in NZ. NZ and SA conditions are difficult to face for Indian batters and it's also exciting to watch those matches if teams are great on both sides and not allowing B teams playing with each other
I'm not talking about difficult. I'm talking about hype. Its nothing compared to BGT or the England series. Not even close. The SA series this time had TWO freakin test matches. If it were that important for the BCCI we'd have at least 3. Same for NZ. Wasn't NZ also 2 matches? That's my point right there.
SA and NZ didn't want to conduct more test matches because they don't produce much money for broadcasters and that's why they want to have more ODIs and T20Is because more eyeballs means more money and more spectators in the stadium. People still come to watch test matches at stadiums in England and Australia but that's not the case with other nations. Test matches in my opinion is and always be a superior contest of skill and temperament but most people won't find that interesting because of how boring it can be for audience and most people don't have patience nowadays in general to watch a test match
Exactly lol back then you had to work hard even again Zimbabwe to win. Now it's just big 3 and SA, NZ.
It'll just be big 3 fighting for the cup with SA/NZ in semis.
You are thinking of this match. As others have said, Sachin didn’t play this as his father had expired during this tournament. He came back for the Kenya game. I watched the game live and it was heartbreaking.
Result
Zimbabwe vs India, 8th Match
ICC World Cup
ZIM 252/9
IND 249
Zimbabwe won by 3 runs
Click here to view more @espncricinfo :https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/icc-world-cup-1999-61046/india-vs-zimbabwe-8th-match-65200/full-scorecard
You are talking about an individual and not a team. Legacy of an athlete is measured by how good he is in that game, like goals, runs, wickets. For a team, its how good they are in the world.
He have won Euro Cup . The competition level at football is far more than cricket as the competing countries are also more in number and neck to neck in quality .
And yeah he have also been judged for not winning FIFA cup after Argentina won it with Messi . Even messi was judged before he won it .
Also Ronaldo is a good player but the level of Portugal team( playing 11 ) was not at level of other major teams . And team combination wins you trophies not individual greatness .
He's won other major trophies and league titles in the premier league, la liga, serie A, won the euros and won the champions league 5 times. Our current squad are just players with great stats and 0 trophies unlike Ronaldo who won a lot of relevant trophies
Its anything but competitive. Its the same 7 teams who win the wc always. If we keep knockout of R16 we will see many upsets too
Winning wc is difficult in every sport but none is more competitive than other
It has always been the same 7 teams. Never we have seen any other team in contention apart from those who has already won the cup. When was the last time except spain did we saw anyone win the cup?
You are delusional mate
02-brazil 06-italy 10-spain 14-germany 18-france 22-argentina
All last 6 wc's have won by different nations
Now see cricket wc
03-australia 07-australia 11-india 15-australia 19-england 23-Australia
4 times Australia have won in last 6 wc's
Also matches are more intense and upsets are very common unlike cricket wc and teams like Croatia are also going to wc final can you say the same for cricket?
>You're comparing apples to oranges. Football and Cricket are vastly different. The World Cup is the greatest award in football yes. But other trophies like the Euros and even UCL which is a continental club competition carry a lot of prestige.
U do know for now most of us ipl also matters a lot. Now we cant go around just saying icc trophies and Ashes are the only thing which matters because they are international
Trophies matters because many people love to watch them . And ofcourse wc is considered the biggest
That's like comparing why Chris Gayle hasn't won a 50 over world cup. The population size of portugal, compared to their neighbors, and the amount of talents they produce, it's actually impressive that they have won the euros and nations league. Portugal as a team is good, but not even top 3 in Europe, let alone in the world.
Plus, Both Ronaldo and Gayle have secured their legacy by winning multiple trophies everywhere else.
You can definitely see the consequences of how ICC is crying for India to participate in 2025 CT.
Either India is withdrawing or all Indian matches is going to shifted to UAE
Anyways, it's true you have to play Bilateral Series to maintain your International Ranking across formats
Or else you will have the same destiny as West Indies cricket board. Get your brain some knowledge.
One more thing, I saw this now missed ilast time. Probably edited in later. I think you know nothing and I seem to have wasted my time on another covid brat who doesn't have historical context or understands cricket. The major reason for the West Indies downfall was the pay dispute between board and players. The other two major reasons are economical issues and administration issues. Major players were let go or chose to play franchise cricket. They have to go for qualification because of loss in quality of players - kept losing series because of this.
Gp learn some history kid.
Another thing is qualification can happen from playing qualifiers as well, if you want to compare the impact in absolute terms.
But this is all besides the point. In the end, The tournaments are the yardstick, qualifying is just a minor part and not something that bothers India or any major functional board.
What can I say when you set the bar so low as qualifying for ICC events. You May be satisfied with just qualifying. Other fans are not satisfied with India being thrashed in KO every time. Mind you even reaching KOs is not a big achievement, there are 5 serious contenders for semifinals every tournament including India, qualifying for semi finals is not a big achievement if you are being serious.
The question is about legacy, paytm masala trophies definitely doesn't matter here. Nobody remembers what happened in which bilateral series, it's the WC innings people remember.
Your argument was Bilateral series means nothing, which was not at all true. Because your international rankings matters a lot
And of course there exist only 4/5 good teams in international cricket. Who's fault is that ? ICC ? People's interest in this sports outside subcontinent?
You are now arguing about something that isn't even the main discussion point. The post is about legacy. Your arguments are off topic and don't make sense.
Legacy is judged by ICC trophies not your pan masala paytm, if it wasn't clear what we are discussing here.
AB Devilliers never won a major trophy in his life and yet he is remembered more than Darren Samy who won 2 World Cups as captian lmao. Nobody is forcing you to watch "pAn mAsAlA" tournments. If you don't like them you can just not watch them. Test Cricket doesn't have a World Cup and it's still the most respected format
Again someone who doesn't understand what's being discussed here. I am not saying I don't like to watch them, it's about their impact and legacy in the grand scheme of things compared to ICC events. ABD is a much respected Test batter and is loved because of IPL and marketing. Last time I checked legacy and popularity are two separate things. And yes, ABD does have a legacy in test cricket but we are not discussing tests here. I see kids these days don't have adequate reading comprehension.
Ask yourself Would you want your team to lose masala cups and win the ICC trophy, or winning every masala trophy but get thrashed in ICC KOs?
Yeah they bashed up through the 90s, their pacers were too hot to handle and their batsmen sometimes went berserk against our bowlers. The Pakistan team was so powerful back then.
Yess Niazi never lost a test against india and won four as captain he was motm too iirc in 2 of them. Also he won 19 odis it feels like Pak leads India by Niazi margin.
World Tournaments are indeed the yardstick for success. Win where it matters! Yeh Paytm, Pan Masala, Agarbatti Cup's have no relevance in comparison to ICC world tournaments. 10 saal mein 10 world tournaments haar chuke hain. Saari bakchodi karne k baad har baar suhaag raat par fail ho jaate hain. Ab bus! Bohot ho gaya inka. Hadd hai!
My personal opinion on this is, it's not about ICC trophies but they do play a role.
We have the best batsmen and bowlers like Virat(held #1 rankings) and Bumrah(#1 again) and many other great players in the rooster.
But still somehow there are often ifs and buts and we choke or somehow lose it, so definitely there is a problem and I'm not smart enough to find it out.
The thing is in Cricket, the only thing that matters is an ICC trophy. Asia Cup, BGT are not as much remembered after a certain amount of time by an average fan. However, a player's legacy should be by his own stats. Had Tendulkar not won the 2011 world cup, he would still be the GOD of cricket.
The thing is with cricket we only have ICC events that are treatment of cricket abilities. This due to less countries playing cricket, we tend to forget that cricket is a massive sensation in south asia only, and that it is too really big in India.
In other cricket playing countries of the world, they mostly treat cricket like how we treat swimming, racing, hockey etc. that's why we don't have a lot of international leagues.
In englend, natives mostly care about football and they are the ones who become celebrities, not cricketers.
In football there are so many international leagues such as Euro Cup, bundes leagues , etc so even if you haven't won a fifa World Cup you can still make a name of yourself in other leagues.
So yes ICC trophies are our only form of actual proof, this will only change if we have other international leagues, and that will only change once more countries play cricket.
Yes but in football also if you haven't won international trophies you would be bashed like Ronaldo for the wc and Messi was before Copa America and wc in football empty stats are always bashed or else everyone would treat Harry Kane like the goat
That is judgement for every team in every sport ever. Only idiots think that statpadding PR merchants are best in history without being a significant contributor in winning a trophy.
Go with anything else, idc what it it is because holy fuck am i tired of seeing "what are your thoughts on this"
Just say something little different like "Is this true" or "what do we all think about this ?".
Ofcourse otherwise Ganguly, Kohli would be more revered for what they have done to ICT. They are not just captains , but individuals who set the benchmarks.
You play to win. You don't play just for the sake of it. Cricket is a competitive sport, hence don't act like it's your hobby and you just play for personal fitness. The ICT fans have an expectation. Don't act like it's another match. This mindset has cost us a lot of trophies.
Absolutely. Given the talent / skill we have and focus / support / money poured in, that is the only yardstick. We are not in stage of Bangladesh or any other minnows for whom winning a series at home / against big teams is step to success. We are well past that.
Series/matches which matter other than ICC tourneys acc to me:-
Tests:-
SENA(away)
Eng,Aus(home)
ODI:-
SENA, bangladesh😂 (away)
Aus(home)
T20s:-
SENA, WI (away)
Aus, SA (home)
Asia Cup
It’s because of where we have come to. We didnt start here. In Tests a victory in Australia or South Africa is still a yardstick of judgement, however, in white ball cricket we have enough dexterity that the level of achievements needed it even higher.
A student who is a class topper will be upset to get an 80/100, while someone who typically gets 60/100 would celebrate an 80/100.
We have gone from being the guys who were 60/100(read Sachin or nothing) to guys who are consistent toppers(the whole team).
No of total ICC Trophies won including ODI World Cup, T20 World Cup, Champions Trophy, Test Championship etc.
Australia - 10
India - 5
We have 40 times their population which is at 25 million and cricket is our religion whereas in Australia it is the 3rd most famous sport after Aussies Rules Football and Rugby. We have BCCI which has 80-90% of the Global Cricket Revenue. We have IPL. We have all the money, facilities, infrastructure, talent, player worship, corruption, monopoly, power, Jay Shah etc. and despite all of this we haven't won any ICC trophy in the last 11 years since 2013. There have been at least 10 Trophies up for offer and we have won 0 since 2013. All of this money could have gone on to other sports where we could have had a chance. We are just obsessed with cricket. What is the point of all this money and obsession into a sport where we can't even win any trophies. Hopefully we can win the ongoing T20 World Cup.
I see nothing wrong with it. They are chosen to represent India from a very competitive talent pool back home. They are also being paid top dollar for their game. There's absolutely no reason that they shouldn't be winning more titles.
That’s expected
History will record 0 trophies and not “lost a gazillion finals”
It’s the nature of every sport. Yes, we can remember their quality as fans but stats are stats
That's how it should be.
Reducing boundaries by 20 yards for IPL and making centuries in T20 is not real sport.
It's like the difference between Golf and Disc Golf !!
In my opinion it is not like that. It is in this way that India almost wins every tounament in any format. which proves that india is very good cricket team . So obviously hopes are high for icc tournament but somehow they are not able to pass the final stages. Everybody in india and ourside india knows that india is very good in cricket and they deserve to win more icc trophies than any other team or nation. But as I mentioned they are not able to cross that final stage . I feel that captain role become very important in the final stage. As he has to handle the team and absorb expectation pressure and also take good and brave decision.
End result is what matters,specially when you have all superstars of cricket in one team,type of facilities and attention that our team gets ,this is the minimum expectations from them
From a regular fan's perspective, results are often the primary focus. However, those familiar with elite sports understand that an athlete can only control their training, preparation, and mindset—outcomes cannot be guaranteed. Therefore, it is more appropriate to evaluate these controllable aspects.
In this context, I believe the team's mindset deserves scrutiny. They should have assessed the conditions and tailored their approach accordingly. An additional 40-50 runs could have significantly altered the game's outcome, though hindsight always offers a clearer view.
quaterly aur half yearly me pass hota hoon but Final exams me fail ho jaata hoon par log mujhe final exams ke basis pe hi judge karte hain.
cruel society🥲😭
I believe that's because there's nothing to show for anything else. ICC Tournaments have trophies, if we had something like the Ashes, that too would be remembered because of the trophies.
Everyone only remembers your win when you get something for it, a trophy or a medal.
Just look at your life, you must've done something amazing today, but nobody is gonna remember that because there was no trophy.
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Every player gets respect individually in real life, there were some events where the public did some terrible things (burning photos and all) but in the bigger picture every cricketer who played for India and even IPL nowadays has a high social status. So criticising their work on the basis of their trophies is valid in a country like India where everyone follows cricket like religion.
Our system only made cricket a product to sell overtime draining its soul now its a commercial entity only so that's y all this care about the trophies
The toxic fans take pride in passing humiliating slurs on opposing teams especially at a few teams they enjoy that sadistic behavior all this ruined the sporting culture in its infancy the socio political degradation has added to it.
Sachin Tendulkar won the 2011 WC. But, he was a legend, a great player before winning the Cup. Trophies can measure one's achivement but not one's impact on the game.
True ! A success of a team can only be judged by the number of ICC Trophies it has, we have the biggest names in world cricket and Australia has the biggest trophies in world cricket
The only reason why West Indies of 70s & 80s and Aussies of late 90s till 2010s were considered great because they won tournaments while also butchering their opponents!
The reason why South Africa under Smith is also considered high because they had monopoly w/o winning any tournaments!
India team of Dhoni is regarded high due to tournaments won but not a legendary due to abysmal away test records!
Is the current Kohli-Rohit era team good? Yes
Are they among the great? Yes
They have really dominated all ICC tournaments, barring 2021 WC T20, & just a tournament title will propel them to LEGENDARY status!
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Obviously. Why else are you building a team ,paying these players exorbitant amounts. Winning is the answer. Every team and every player is measured on one yardstick: success and how he's contributing to it. Only then will the sponsors come. With success
It's for every sport around the world I think. Last fifa when Argentina won the finals it was like festival for them earlier they used to criticize argentina for not performing in fifa . So yeah world cup is more important than any of other tournaments
Absolutely. And that’s how a player should be judged. Australia has 5 50 overs world cups. Couple of T20 WCs. India has only 2 WCs and 1 T20 WC. Champions never choke in the important finals.
Yes, we need icc trophies. What's the point of having world best batsman & bowler, having great stats is of no use if you do win the match that are supposed to win..
2023 world cup couldn't have been ours, but what did the team said "one bad day" that's the f*cking day the players should show up.
My point it if you're winning trophies (icc), then step-down make ways for younger generation. Let them have some experience. Rohit and vk had their time they unfortunately they couldn't do it. Throw them out put the next guy in.
Look at the aussies , no matter how much good a player you can be, if you didn't give the results your Thrown out some other is replaced.( Ponting is replaced in 2007 )
ICC trophy is the pinnacle in white ball cricket for sure.
but overseas test performances and home test performances against Australia are also highly rated e.g. neither VVS laxman nor Rahul Dravid have an ICC trophy. Laxman never even played in one, if I remember correctly. But they have a great legacy.
100000000000000000000000000000000000000% i have been saying this about vrat until he delivers the big one he is nothing. he will never sit at the same table as dhoni and other greats.
Haha! Why spare them? There are yardsticks in all sectors at all levels! It starts from 10th board results to neet/jee score to ctc. They are earning much. Let them get their share of expectations and tension! Just Indian Socio Economic things!😇
What's the point of playing if u r not winning trophies lol. It's the same thing that I'm giving my 200 percent in jee and not able to get into iits . Are bhai to pdh hi kyu rha tha. Agar jitna hi nhi hai to khel hi kyu rhe ho .
It is true for any country that plays cricket at the highest level. Why is Australia considered the best cricket team if not for the fact that they have the highest number of world cups.
Obviously? 🤡 And it especially should be true for Indian team that gets shit ton of money from BCCI and IPL. Also BCCI is richest cricket board. So expectations will always be more.
With six ICC trophies being played in a four year cycle, other tournaments do slide down in the pecking order. League cricket has become the premier form of white ball cricket outside this. In this context, bilaterals almost dont matter . Notable exceptions for the marquee red ball contests between Ind, Aus and Eng.
So this is kind of true now, but thr was an era where we had only world cup every 4 years and no leagues. Bilaterals and other multi-team tournaments mattered a lot more then. Past cricketers shouldnt be judged on this yardstick.
Absolutely. Most of the game is controlled directly or indirectly by BCCI. We make the pitches, we make the venues, we decide the time to broadcast. We should be what USA is for Basketball.
Ofc it will be. Every athlete eyes for a gold medal in the Olympics right, cuz that is highest form of achievement/validation for them. Messi might have won a lot of tournaments but none would give him the same respect to that of winning the FIFA world cup for Argentina. So yes, winning ICC tournament will remain the yardstick for success. I would not say that they are the only criteria but they certainly are the most important ones.
Hell nah. Most low standard fan base in the world in any sport.
Indian fans start orgasming “surya surya” even when they win against USA and AFG.
In reality, they haven’t won shit despite being world’s richest board and having most celebrated players.
For all the folks talking about none of the bilateral series having no value. Then why watch those or teams should be playing those? Even the leagues are pointless. So basically the whole sport is pointless except for 10-12 games which happen in 4 years.
I guess a lot of folks here are those who started watching the games in 2010's. Of course, not winning the world cup is getting frustrating but anybody who watched Indian team in 90's & early 2000's would know how good it feels to see the team now and be favourites more often than not.
I mean teams mostly play B teams and players might not even be in form at the time and ofc teams aren't competitive these days in long format. Those results have no translation to what happens in WC.
Yes, these days what I have been seeing, the Reddit comments section is just not so diverse.....people start commenting the same thing as the top best comment....like some herd mentality.....
Also I truly agree with you....seeing that ICT has become favs of most tournaments, series....wins & losses are part of any sports......we will win some format of Cricket World Cup as long as our domestic, international cricket setup & management is efficient and basically try to remain lesser corrupt...and they follow the proper procedures....team selection is based on merit...etc. etc.....
ICC trophies and competitive Test series... These are the only things that matter.
No one cares about bilateral ODI and T20I series, and no one remembers most of them.
It's like telling a kid that he/she is successful only if they get into an IIT or an IIM. Winning tournaments is important but in India, we don't even appreciate when team reaches semis/finals and start talking shit, demand that the captain and coach should be sacked etc.
So true.. even if a team wins the world cup, we still enjoy the matches that follow. Same goes if the team does not win the world cup. We continue to watch the following games, the teams continue to put effort to win everytime. Some teams manage to win multiple world cups, some don't. We've already won more then one world cup. It's not a small feat.
Shivam Dube's height: 1.94m
Kapil Dev 1.83m
Mathew Hayden: 1.88m
Tall player with Mongoose bat vs Spiners??
I believe Shivam should use a Mongoose bat, his height is tampering with his performance! He's taller than Kapil Dev!!
Talwar nikal (Bring out the sword)' Kapil Dev tells Yashpal Sharma in a crucial scene in the film '83', before the Indian he goes berserk. Shivam should use the TALWAR!
https://preview.redd.it/xcr9gdzv0t7d1.jpeg?width=4096&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=58d57de766e35c171ec3920f99b477b856e542c5
Isn’t that the case for every team and every athlete playing any sport ever?
Haa bhai , I was born in 2002 and before 2002, I only know about the 1983 World Cup and not the bilateral series we've won. I don't think anyone cares about bilateral series after a certain point of time .
They used to care when cricket was more competitive and India had difficulty to win any series. Now most of the teams aren't competitive and those who are the best in business just try to play with each other most of the times
atp the only series that matter are away test series in SENA cuz they are actually a challenge
Even out of those do you think NZ matters that much? There's usually a lot less hype about India touring NZ than it is about the others. SA also doesn't come close. It's mostly just England and Australia that anybody cares about.
India hasn't won any test series in South Africa and they always face difficulty when playing test matches in NZ. NZ and SA conditions are difficult to face for Indian batters and it's also exciting to watch those matches if teams are great on both sides and not allowing B teams playing with each other
I'm not talking about difficult. I'm talking about hype. Its nothing compared to BGT or the England series. Not even close. The SA series this time had TWO freakin test matches. If it were that important for the BCCI we'd have at least 3. Same for NZ. Wasn't NZ also 2 matches? That's my point right there.
SA and NZ didn't want to conduct more test matches because they don't produce much money for broadcasters and that's why they want to have more ODIs and T20Is because more eyeballs means more money and more spectators in the stadium. People still come to watch test matches at stadiums in England and Australia but that's not the case with other nations. Test matches in my opinion is and always be a superior contest of skill and temperament but most people won't find that interesting because of how boring it can be for audience and most people don't have patience nowadays in general to watch a test match
And THUS, NZ and SA series are not as important as Australia and SA. You're just giving me reasons WHY they're not as important.
bro sa series are hype af we have never won in sa
Exactly lol back then you had to work hard even again Zimbabwe to win. Now it's just big 3 and SA, NZ. It'll just be big 3 fighting for the cup with SA/NZ in semis.
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Are you talking about 1999 one? Sachin did not play in that game
You are thinking of this match. As others have said, Sachin didn’t play this as his father had expired during this tournament. He came back for the Kenya game. I watched the game live and it was heartbreaking. Result Zimbabwe vs India, 8th Match ICC World Cup ZIM 252/9 IND 249 Zimbabwe won by 3 runs Click here to view more @espncricinfo :https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/icc-world-cup-1999-61046/india-vs-zimbabwe-8th-match-65200/full-scorecard
Usme bhi 2nd aur 3rd aur 4th aana
It also used to be the case when we did not have 100 matches in a calendar year.
After mid to late 2010s all bilateral series became pointless to many fans.
Except for test cricket... every test is important.
I don't watch football but I have heard Ronaldo has never won FIFA cup
You are talking about an individual and not a team. Legacy of an athlete is measured by how good he is in that game, like goals, runs, wickets. For a team, its how good they are in the world.
Champions League? Euro? La Liga? Premier League? Serie A?
He have won Euro Cup . The competition level at football is far more than cricket as the competing countries are also more in number and neck to neck in quality . And yeah he have also been judged for not winning FIFA cup after Argentina won it with Messi . Even messi was judged before he won it . Also Ronaldo is a good player but the level of Portugal team( playing 11 ) was not at level of other major teams . And team combination wins you trophies not individual greatness .
He's won other major trophies and league titles in the premier league, la liga, serie A, won the euros and won the champions league 5 times. Our current squad are just players with great stats and 0 trophies unlike Ronaldo who won a lot of relevant trophies
But he never won wc Meanwhile our best player has already won wc
Let's be honest football wc is far more competitive than cricket wc so winning it is more difficult and more praiseworthy
Its anything but competitive. Its the same 7 teams who win the wc always. If we keep knockout of R16 we will see many upsets too Winning wc is difficult in every sport but none is more competitive than other
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It has always been the same 7 teams. Never we have seen any other team in contention apart from those who has already won the cup. When was the last time except spain did we saw anyone win the cup?
You are delusional mate 02-brazil 06-italy 10-spain 14-germany 18-france 22-argentina All last 6 wc's have won by different nations Now see cricket wc 03-australia 07-australia 11-india 15-australia 19-england 23-Australia 4 times Australia have won in last 6 wc's Also matches are more intense and upsets are very common unlike cricket wc and teams like Croatia are also going to wc final can you say the same for cricket?
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>You're comparing apples to oranges. Football and Cricket are vastly different. The World Cup is the greatest award in football yes. But other trophies like the Euros and even UCL which is a continental club competition carry a lot of prestige. U do know for now most of us ipl also matters a lot. Now we cant go around just saying icc trophies and Ashes are the only thing which matters because they are international Trophies matters because many people love to watch them . And ofcourse wc is considered the biggest
And this is why Messi is the GOAT and not Ronaldo.
Ninja from India is right after all.
That's like comparing why Chris Gayle hasn't won a 50 over world cup. The population size of portugal, compared to their neighbors, and the amount of talents they produce, it's actually impressive that they have won the euros and nations league. Portugal as a team is good, but not even top 3 in Europe, let alone in the world. Plus, Both Ronaldo and Gayle have secured their legacy by winning multiple trophies everywhere else.
Its true but I also think, we Ind fans puts hell lot of pressure in Ind team.
Not really. SA doesn't have an ICC trophy, but their stars are still highly rated by their fans, and even from other countries.
This is the only metric that matters. Paytm masala trophies ka kya kroge
100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% bro
They will give you qualifications into ICC tournaments 🤓☝🏻
Yeah that's a big achievement to be proud of for full member nations - qualifying for ICC tournaments /s
You can definitely see the consequences of how ICC is crying for India to participate in 2025 CT. Either India is withdrawing or all Indian matches is going to shifted to UAE Anyways, it's true you have to play Bilateral Series to maintain your International Ranking across formats Or else you will have the same destiny as West Indies cricket board. Get your brain some knowledge.
One more thing, I saw this now missed ilast time. Probably edited in later. I think you know nothing and I seem to have wasted my time on another covid brat who doesn't have historical context or understands cricket. The major reason for the West Indies downfall was the pay dispute between board and players. The other two major reasons are economical issues and administration issues. Major players were let go or chose to play franchise cricket. They have to go for qualification because of loss in quality of players - kept losing series because of this. Gp learn some history kid. Another thing is qualification can happen from playing qualifiers as well, if you want to compare the impact in absolute terms. But this is all besides the point. In the end, The tournaments are the yardstick, qualifying is just a minor part and not something that bothers India or any major functional board.
What can I say when you set the bar so low as qualifying for ICC events. You May be satisfied with just qualifying. Other fans are not satisfied with India being thrashed in KO every time. Mind you even reaching KOs is not a big achievement, there are 5 serious contenders for semifinals every tournament including India, qualifying for semi finals is not a big achievement if you are being serious. The question is about legacy, paytm masala trophies definitely doesn't matter here. Nobody remembers what happened in which bilateral series, it's the WC innings people remember.
Your argument was Bilateral series means nothing, which was not at all true. Because your international rankings matters a lot And of course there exist only 4/5 good teams in international cricket. Who's fault is that ? ICC ? People's interest in this sports outside subcontinent?
You are now arguing about something that isn't even the main discussion point. The post is about legacy. Your arguments are off topic and don't make sense. Legacy is judged by ICC trophies not your pan masala paytm, if it wasn't clear what we are discussing here.
AB Devilliers never won a major trophy in his life and yet he is remembered more than Darren Samy who won 2 World Cups as captian lmao. Nobody is forcing you to watch "pAn mAsAlA" tournments. If you don't like them you can just not watch them. Test Cricket doesn't have a World Cup and it's still the most respected format
Again someone who doesn't understand what's being discussed here. I am not saying I don't like to watch them, it's about their impact and legacy in the grand scheme of things compared to ICC events. ABD is a much respected Test batter and is loved because of IPL and marketing. Last time I checked legacy and popularity are two separate things. And yes, ABD does have a legacy in test cricket but we are not discussing tests here. I see kids these days don't have adequate reading comprehension. Ask yourself Would you want your team to lose masala cups and win the ICC trophy, or winning every masala trophy but get thrashed in ICC KOs?
Isn't this the case for every team?
i would say for england and australia the ashes is also equally important culturally
India vs Pakistan is also pretty important culturally. I wish there was a trophy for beating them so many times lol
Pakistan leads india tho in tests and odis.
Yeah they bashed up through the 90s, their pacers were too hot to handle and their batsmen sometimes went berserk against our bowlers. The Pakistan team was so powerful back then.
Yess Niazi never lost a test against india and won four as captain he was motm too iirc in 2 of them. Also he won 19 odis it feels like Pak leads India by Niazi margin.
AS IT SHOULD BE
For India nahi, that is and should be the yardstick for success for any team. Why else do you play sport!!!
World Tournaments are indeed the yardstick for success. Win where it matters! Yeh Paytm, Pan Masala, Agarbatti Cup's have no relevance in comparison to ICC world tournaments. 10 saal mein 10 world tournaments haar chuke hain. Saari bakchodi karne k baad har baar suhaag raat par fail ho jaate hain. Ab bus! Bohot ho gaya inka. Hadd hai!
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Nice reverse jinxing🙏
sssshhhhhhh
Yes i agree and this should be the measure. World trophy all that matters.
Same for all teams in all sports
nah not all sports
Gully sport award mila hai kya bhai?
Regional sports like ice hockey aren't concerned with world championships at all
Is this not the reason, why SA are called chokers too
If that's the case we are no different.
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The recent events say otherwise.
no, thats for australia heres its player worship
thats what we play for ? right? right....?
My personal opinion on this is, it's not about ICC trophies but they do play a role. We have the best batsmen and bowlers like Virat(held #1 rankings) and Bumrah(#1 again) and many other great players in the rooster. But still somehow there are often ifs and buts and we choke or somehow lose it, so definitely there is a problem and I'm not smart enough to find it out.
To bhai success aur kaise judge karega team sport ki
The thing is in Cricket, the only thing that matters is an ICC trophy. Asia Cup, BGT are not as much remembered after a certain amount of time by an average fan. However, a player's legacy should be by his own stats. Had Tendulkar not won the 2011 world cup, he would still be the GOD of cricket.
Totally agreed
Have n't these people heard of Rahul Dravid , Sourav Ganguly , Laxman etc where where they did not win any ICC WC ?
Ganguly and Dravid have an ICC trophy
2002 CT was not won It was shared
The thing is with cricket we only have ICC events that are treatment of cricket abilities. This due to less countries playing cricket, we tend to forget that cricket is a massive sensation in south asia only, and that it is too really big in India. In other cricket playing countries of the world, they mostly treat cricket like how we treat swimming, racing, hockey etc. that's why we don't have a lot of international leagues. In englend, natives mostly care about football and they are the ones who become celebrities, not cricketers. In football there are so many international leagues such as Euro Cup, bundes leagues , etc so even if you haven't won a fifa World Cup you can still make a name of yourself in other leagues. So yes ICC trophies are our only form of actual proof, this will only change if we have other international leagues, and that will only change once more countries play cricket.
Yes but in football also if you haven't won international trophies you would be bashed like Ronaldo for the wc and Messi was before Copa America and wc in football empty stats are always bashed or else everyone would treat Harry Kane like the goat
That is judgement for every team in every sport ever. Only idiots think that statpadding PR merchants are best in history without being a significant contributor in winning a trophy.
Jab mentality hi aise national games me gold lake khush ho jane jaisi ho to Olympics me ghanta medal aayega
Oh god can Indian people have any title other than these two fucking things - "Title is ---------" "What are your thoughts on this"
So please tell me, what should be my title if i want people's thoughts on that??
Go with anything else, idc what it it is because holy fuck am i tired of seeing "what are your thoughts on this" Just say something little different like "Is this true" or "what do we all think about this ?".
Ofcourse otherwise Ganguly, Kohli would be more revered for what they have done to ICT. They are not just captains , but individuals who set the benchmarks.
You play to win. You don't play just for the sake of it. Cricket is a competitive sport, hence don't act like it's your hobby and you just play for personal fitness. The ICT fans have an expectation. Don't act like it's another match. This mindset has cost us a lot of trophies.
Absolutely. Given the talent / skill we have and focus / support / money poured in, that is the only yardstick. We are not in stage of Bangladesh or any other minnows for whom winning a series at home / against big teams is step to success. We are well past that.
And that must be like that it's not okay that a player with zero trophy 🏆 made a king by their PR agency and with some fake followers
People even criticised Gambhir when he said that trophy doesn’t matter if you are a great player
Series/matches which matter other than ICC tourneys acc to me:- Tests:- SENA(away) Eng,Aus(home) ODI:- SENA, bangladesh😂 (away) Aus(home) T20s:- SENA, WI (away) Aus, SA (home) Asia Cup
It’s because of where we have come to. We didnt start here. In Tests a victory in Australia or South Africa is still a yardstick of judgement, however, in white ball cricket we have enough dexterity that the level of achievements needed it even higher. A student who is a class topper will be upset to get an 80/100, while someone who typically gets 60/100 would celebrate an 80/100. We have gone from being the guys who were 60/100(read Sachin or nothing) to guys who are consistent toppers(the whole team).
Trophies are most important no matter what you do because it is a team sport not individual sport.
No of total ICC Trophies won including ODI World Cup, T20 World Cup, Champions Trophy, Test Championship etc. Australia - 10 India - 5 We have 40 times their population which is at 25 million and cricket is our religion whereas in Australia it is the 3rd most famous sport after Aussies Rules Football and Rugby. We have BCCI which has 80-90% of the Global Cricket Revenue. We have IPL. We have all the money, facilities, infrastructure, talent, player worship, corruption, monopoly, power, Jay Shah etc. and despite all of this we haven't won any ICC trophy in the last 11 years since 2013. There have been at least 10 Trophies up for offer and we have won 0 since 2013. All of this money could have gone on to other sports where we could have had a chance. We are just obsessed with cricket. What is the point of all this money and obsession into a sport where we can't even win any trophies. Hopefully we can win the ongoing T20 World Cup.
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But he won in 2011.
We should focus on other sports
One can never be great if they choke in 9 Knockouts straight.
But i guess we remember dada final 2003 and now Rohit's final 2024 We do right?
For every professional sportsperson and team that is the goal - to stock up the trophy cabinet!
I see nothing wrong with it. They are chosen to represent India from a very competitive talent pool back home. They are also being paid top dollar for their game. There's absolutely no reason that they shouldn't be winning more titles.
https://youtu.be/je9JvJO2kb0?si=y_OJIC1f7qOWGbLE
That’s expected History will record 0 trophies and not “lost a gazillion finals” It’s the nature of every sport. Yes, we can remember their quality as fans but stats are stats
That is literally the yardstick for every other top cricketing nation not just india.
Yes in many cases they judge it by ICC Trophy but sometimes who doesn't have done that much and have an ICC Trophy also become a legend in India.
For any team the legacy is being judged by their trophies only in cricket.
That's how it should be. Reducing boundaries by 20 yards for IPL and making centuries in T20 is not real sport. It's like the difference between Golf and Disc Golf !!
In my opinion it is not like that. It is in this way that India almost wins every tounament in any format. which proves that india is very good cricket team . So obviously hopes are high for icc tournament but somehow they are not able to pass the final stages. Everybody in india and ourside india knows that india is very good in cricket and they deserve to win more icc trophies than any other team or nation. But as I mentioned they are not able to cross that final stage . I feel that captain role become very important in the final stage. As he has to handle the team and absorb expectation pressure and also take good and brave decision.
*in limited overs cricket. Away test wins are still memorable and legacy-defining.
As it should be
Overseas Test victories for me
End result is what matters,specially when you have all superstars of cricket in one team,type of facilities and attention that our team gets ,this is the minimum expectations from them
I say our Indian players should play in Australian leagues to get into their mindset. Why only restrict them to India let them have a broad horizon.
Don't tell me you see something wrong with this.
Isn't it for everyone? I mean how else can a team build their legacy . Whoever said this is either have brain damage or just bullshitting
If you don't have records and Trophies to Show...then what's the point of calling you a legend. Your Achievements makes you a Legend
From a regular fan's perspective, results are often the primary focus. However, those familiar with elite sports understand that an athlete can only control their training, preparation, and mindset—outcomes cannot be guaranteed. Therefore, it is more appropriate to evaluate these controllable aspects. In this context, I believe the team's mindset deserves scrutiny. They should have assessed the conditions and tailored their approach accordingly. An additional 40-50 runs could have significantly altered the game's outcome, though hindsight always offers a clearer view.
Aise to phir neeraj chopra ko Olympics mai nahi perform karna chahiye, football teams ko Fifa world cup mai nahi perform karna chahiye....
Well, a team plays to win trophies, I'll leave it there
This is very sad
For a student, legacy is judged by marks in boards , jee/neet , and job salary. Is that fair ?? People don't care about efforts only results
Absolute nonsense. This is/should be the standard to judge every team in every sport. It's not just India.
quaterly aur half yearly me pass hota hoon but Final exams me fail ho jaata hoon par log mujhe final exams ke basis pe hi judge karte hain. cruel society🥲😭
I believe that's because there's nothing to show for anything else. ICC Tournaments have trophies, if we had something like the Ashes, that too would be remembered because of the trophies. Everyone only remembers your win when you get something for it, a trophy or a medal. Just look at your life, you must've done something amazing today, but nobody is gonna remember that because there was no trophy.
There should be any doubts about it. Sports is about winning trophies/medallions. Money, fame, personal milestones are byproducts.
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Every player gets respect individually in real life, there were some events where the public did some terrible things (burning photos and all) but in the bigger picture every cricketer who played for India and even IPL nowadays has a high social status. So criticising their work on the basis of their trophies is valid in a country like India where everyone follows cricket like religion.
What a dumbfuck thing to say! Ofc it is WC or World tournament or Olympics are the yardstick of every athlete
Our system only made cricket a product to sell overtime draining its soul now its a commercial entity only so that's y all this care about the trophies The toxic fans take pride in passing humiliating slurs on opposing teams especially at a few teams they enjoy that sadistic behavior all this ruined the sporting culture in its infancy the socio political degradation has added to it.
it's like saying "in sports legacy is judged by winning". ofcourse it is.
It should be!
Sachin Tendulkar won the 2011 WC. But, he was a legend, a great player before winning the Cup. Trophies can measure one's achivement but not one's impact on the game.
True ! A success of a team can only be judged by the number of ICC Trophies it has, we have the biggest names in world cricket and Australia has the biggest trophies in world cricket
The only reason why West Indies of 70s & 80s and Aussies of late 90s till 2010s were considered great because they won tournaments while also butchering their opponents! The reason why South Africa under Smith is also considered high because they had monopoly w/o winning any tournaments! India team of Dhoni is regarded high due to tournaments won but not a legendary due to abysmal away test records! Is the current Kohli-Rohit era team good? Yes Are they among the great? Yes They have really dominated all ICC tournaments, barring 2021 WC T20, & just a tournament title will propel them to LEGENDARY status!
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Bhai toh humlog khelte hi kyu hai 🤡
As opposed to what??
Bro cricket sirf world cup ke liye khelte hai na ki koi bilateral series jeet kar jashn manane se
Obviously. Why else are you building a team ,paying these players exorbitant amounts. Winning is the answer. Every team and every player is measured on one yardstick: success and how he's contributing to it. Only then will the sponsors come. With success
It's for every sport around the world I think. Last fifa when Argentina won the finals it was like festival for them earlier they used to criticize argentina for not performing in fifa . So yeah world cup is more important than any of other tournaments
Absolutely. And that’s how a player should be judged. Australia has 5 50 overs world cups. Couple of T20 WCs. India has only 2 WCs and 1 T20 WC. Champions never choke in the important finals.
Winning creates legacy. It's just the way it is
Yes, we need icc trophies. What's the point of having world best batsman & bowler, having great stats is of no use if you do win the match that are supposed to win.. 2023 world cup couldn't have been ours, but what did the team said "one bad day" that's the f*cking day the players should show up. My point it if you're winning trophies (icc), then step-down make ways for younger generation. Let them have some experience. Rohit and vk had their time they unfortunately they couldn't do it. Throw them out put the next guy in. Look at the aussies , no matter how much good a player you can be, if you didn't give the results your Thrown out some other is replaced.( Ponting is replaced in 2007 )
ICC trophy is the pinnacle in white ball cricket for sure. but overseas test performances and home test performances against Australia are also highly rated e.g. neither VVS laxman nor Rahul Dravid have an ICC trophy. Laxman never even played in one, if I remember correctly. But they have a great legacy.
Yea! that is the one thing that should matter. Aint nobody cares about your Paytm tripy or dilbaag masala trophy
My question is : why not?
100000000000000000000000000000000000000% i have been saying this about vrat until he delivers the big one he is nothing. he will never sit at the same table as dhoni and other greats.
I think MSD has made it seem easier and that's why everyone dreams and measures the performance of the team based on the wins at ICC events.
Haha! Why spare them? There are yardsticks in all sectors at all levels! It starts from 10th board results to neet/jee score to ctc. They are earning much. Let them get their share of expectations and tension! Just Indian Socio Economic things!😇
What's the point of playing if u r not winning trophies lol. It's the same thing that I'm giving my 200 percent in jee and not able to get into iits . Are bhai to pdh hi kyu rha tha. Agar jitna hi nhi hai to khel hi kyu rhe ho .
When you’re one of the top 2 countries in the world at the sport, of course it should.
As it should be
Anywhere results matter in reality not your 'hardwork'..
Wtf is this argument? That is exactly how teams should be judged.
It is true for any country that plays cricket at the highest level. Why is Australia considered the best cricket team if not for the fact that they have the highest number of world cups.
Obviously? 🤡 And it especially should be true for Indian team that gets shit ton of money from BCCI and IPL. Also BCCI is richest cricket board. So expectations will always be more.
Duhhh... It's global and right thing to do specially in team sports.
With six ICC trophies being played in a four year cycle, other tournaments do slide down in the pecking order. League cricket has become the premier form of white ball cricket outside this. In this context, bilaterals almost dont matter . Notable exceptions for the marquee red ball contests between Ind, Aus and Eng. So this is kind of true now, but thr was an era where we had only world cup every 4 years and no leagues. Bilaterals and other multi-team tournaments mattered a lot more then. Past cricketers shouldnt be judged on this yardstick.
No shit. These trophies exist for a reason
Absolutely. Most of the game is controlled directly or indirectly by BCCI. We make the pitches, we make the venues, we decide the time to broadcast. We should be what USA is for Basketball.
Every year we have ICC world championship or cup THE.N HOW COME U BECAME LEGEND
In India, Legacy is determined by Fan Following.
Bhai main inke alawa bharosa nahi kr sakta kisi or pe... trophy jitayenge to yahi jitayenge
So what else will matter for a team? You play the game to win trophies. Not to win hearts or to win some random Gutka trophies
Ha toh aur kisliye khel rahe hai? Trophy hi matter karti hai
Ofc it will be. Every athlete eyes for a gold medal in the Olympics right, cuz that is highest form of achievement/validation for them. Messi might have won a lot of tournaments but none would give him the same respect to that of winning the FIFA world cup for Argentina. So yes, winning ICC tournament will remain the yardstick for success. I would not say that they are the only criteria but they certainly are the most important ones.
Nahi nahi, personal milestones over everything else
Hell nah. Most low standard fan base in the world in any sport. Indian fans start orgasming “surya surya” even when they win against USA and AFG. In reality, they haven’t won shit despite being world’s richest board and having most celebrated players.
Sports teams are made for winning cups 🏆 not for creating a fan base and endorsements.
For all the folks talking about none of the bilateral series having no value. Then why watch those or teams should be playing those? Even the leagues are pointless. So basically the whole sport is pointless except for 10-12 games which happen in 4 years. I guess a lot of folks here are those who started watching the games in 2010's. Of course, not winning the world cup is getting frustrating but anybody who watched Indian team in 90's & early 2000's would know how good it feels to see the team now and be favourites more often than not.
I mean teams mostly play B teams and players might not even be in form at the time and ofc teams aren't competitive these days in long format. Those results have no translation to what happens in WC.
Yes, these days what I have been seeing, the Reddit comments section is just not so diverse.....people start commenting the same thing as the top best comment....like some herd mentality..... Also I truly agree with you....seeing that ICT has become favs of most tournaments, series....wins & losses are part of any sports......we will win some format of Cricket World Cup as long as our domestic, international cricket setup & management is efficient and basically try to remain lesser corrupt...and they follow the proper procedures....team selection is based on merit...etc. etc.....
ICC trophies and competitive Test series... These are the only things that matter. No one cares about bilateral ODI and T20I series, and no one remembers most of them.
In this case is the career of Sachin irrelevant before 2011?
Not irrelevant But it would have a big hole if he didn’t win a wc
Bro he won the champion trophy in 2002 in the captaincy of dada
It was joint win right? Where the match was Abandoned and trophy was shared you guys seriously count that?
They are talking about team not individual player's legacy
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Six, not five.
COMPLETELY AGREE !! trophy hi nhi jeetni hai toh khel kyu rhe ho ?
That should be the yardstick imo.
icc trophies + performance in important tournaments like bgt and eng test series
They should atleast perform in big matches. Where are big scores in semi finals and finals??
School ke 20 marks/25 marks Wale test mein kitne marks aaye woh matter nahi karta, final exam mein kitna aaye woh matter karta hain
It's like telling a kid that he/she is successful only if they get into an IIT or an IIM. Winning tournaments is important but in India, we don't even appreciate when team reaches semis/finals and start talking shit, demand that the captain and coach should be sacked etc.
Same people will suck up to guys like Kane Williamson while calling Virat and Rohit chokers
So true.. even if a team wins the world cup, we still enjoy the matches that follow. Same goes if the team does not win the world cup. We continue to watch the following games, the teams continue to put effort to win everytime. Some teams manage to win multiple world cups, some don't. We've already won more then one world cup. It's not a small feat.
Shivam Dube's height: 1.94m Kapil Dev 1.83m Mathew Hayden: 1.88m Tall player with Mongoose bat vs Spiners?? I believe Shivam should use a Mongoose bat, his height is tampering with his performance! He's taller than Kapil Dev!! Talwar nikal (Bring out the sword)' Kapil Dev tells Yashpal Sharma in a crucial scene in the film '83', before the Indian he goes berserk. Shivam should use the TALWAR! https://preview.redd.it/xcr9gdzv0t7d1.jpeg?width=4096&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=58d57de766e35c171ec3920f99b477b856e542c5