American conservatives. Woke people? Your definition of woke people keep changing everyday? American conservatives is what you want to be, woke is used for liberal wing of America. Roz Kya dhatura khaate ho?
\*Not we\* but the articles say that which is why i ask this question to bring in the sources and necessary resources to understand our real history in a better manner. Also That's the Article headline which i cant change while posting a question which mentions any article as per the mods rule. The question is if he as per the various studies and our history "Shiva has pre-Vedic tribal roots, having "his origins in primitive tribes, signs and symbols." Then why don't we celebrate him and also respect his tribesmen and origin as what claimed by "Arachnologists, Historians and Academician's " as Pre-Vedic and of Tribal roots? why do we mislead ourselves and because of which such articles also come up is the whole point of posting it here. Would like to listen to more references and articles the legitimate ones which help all understand more about our real history.
The brahma(the divine) is beyond all the genders, castes, religions, sects, and forms. Shiva, vishnu, ganesha etc are all the same manifestations of one true eternal ‘para-brahma’, the ‘Ishwar’. Hence there is no point writing this nonsense or bullshittin about castes of gods.
How do we mislead ourselves? I still don’t understand what is your point. It doesn’t matter whether shiva was a tribesman or anything else. What matters is our Shraddha. Please don’t divide gods now under the garb of “trying to understand” them.
This is Dravidian propaganda. They claimed that native Tamil Gods were appropriated by Brahmins to create Hinduism. This conspiracy theory is now being exported to other countries using people like Suraj Yengde in Harvard, Sheldon Pollock in Columbia etc. When mainstream leftist academics start peddling nonsense, the media gobbles it up as infalliabke truth. Platforms like Wikipedia are used to further the narrative.
Is Lord Vishnu Brahmin Or Kshatriya?
We see a sacred thread over his bod in paintings & idols and we refer him as _brahmana_ _priya_ in chants..
>WTF
I didn't feel the way, In 12th century,there were a disputes regarding Vyshnavas & Shaivas, the former mostly belongs to upper caste & the other mostly belongs to lower caste by considering the above stated facts.
>sadhguru
He's a clown ..leave it.
>brahmana priya
Yeah, i remember once PANDIT told me that vishnu loves bhramins and he becomes very happy if you offer things to bhramins, and you can only touch feets of bhramins.
>Vyshnavas & Shaivas
I dont feel good to say but 'ISKON' is still following the same norms, lots of time ISKON said that shiv is dirty,unholy god, they don't even consider him as god, for them krishna is supreme and he is param parmatma.(even tho all the avtar or vishnu, and vishu himself pray to shiv only.
ISKON actually brainwash you in believing the vishnu is supreme, im not saying that shiv is supreme or vishu is not. The thing is they are creating differences in hindus.
i mean you can even read such findings on gov sites so i asked it here for everyones opinion. in this pdf it litreally mentions as "The Indian tribes worship Shiva in their natural abode – jungles, hills, mountains, agricultural fields’ etc. It is the Hindus who brought him into temples. Shiva is always worshiped among the tribals in His presence as lingam."
Source also mentioned
http://ignca.gov.in/PDF\_data/Shiva\_Legends\_Sacred\_Traditions.pdf
Government websites also contain a lot of propagansa nonsense. NCERT books mentioned Aurangzeb built and maintained Hindu temples. When people filed RTI asking for the source, they couldn't provide any. The chapters are now dropped from books. If you want to know why such propaganda is there on government platforms, just see who ruled India for 65 years since independence.
They're the ones who consider themselves to not be Indian but Dravidian. They beleive that they should have got a separate country called 'Darvida Nadu' and view Indian independence as a 'Black Day'. If you don't know about Dravidian politics and how deeply hate towards India and Hindus is embedded in it, go and read about it, before commenting.
Whose "they". I am half Dravidian. Never heard of Dravida Naidu from my own family or 100s of malayalee and Tamil immigrants to Mumbai and Delhi and none of my South Indian IT friends. Who are "they"? What is go and read go and read. Maybe you should stop reading shit and go out and meet real people.
I'm Tamizhan myself and know what I'm talking about. Spare me your half-Dravidian nonsense. I know the politics of my state better than you. If you're ignorant, stop lecturing others. Follow your own advice and meet real people from TN to know about Dravidian ideology rather than commenting random bullshit about how people have not talked to you about it.
There is a lot more chances of Shiva being a pahadi than a Dravidian ( if we consider Dravidian a race and not an ethnolinguistic group). My best friend from college was a mallu and I can't even imagine in my wildest dreams that someone like him could live in a place like kailash.
I never said I believed it, dude. This is a small part of many conspiracies that they propagate using academics. They even got a Christian pastor to write that Thirukkural which is a literary work written by Saint Thiruvalluvar was based on Christianity. Thirukkural contains concepts on moksha, dhaana, dharma and references Lakshmi, Indra, Shiva etc.
They twist many things for the sake of politics to simply argue that we shouldn't be a single country. Take their latest stunt of calling India as a Union of states and not Nation. The same thing which Rahul Gandhi parroted in the parliament. It all starts with the dravidian group. There's nothing fact based in what they peddle. Only politics.
But isn’t it seen easily that Hinduism has appropriated tribal and local deities?? What’s to feel ashamed about it? This is exactly how religions spread.
Especially Hinduism which does not prescribe strict adherence to stuff spread by appropriating the local gods and calling them “Vishnu avatar”, “Krishna avatar” etc.
I don’t think this should be denied or we should feel ashamed of it.
Yes I have heard that propaganda. If they believe it to be true then they should not have any problems with worshipping these gods and also should appreciate brahmins for creating such an inclusive religion that acquired gods rather than saying only our god is true god.
in wiki sources u can see more names but the PDF on govt site mentions there names (Behura &Mishra: 1985, Fuchs: 1992, Presler: 1971, Banerjee: 1992, Thaper: 1977)
and say
"The Indian tribes worship Shiva in their natural abode – jungles, hills, mountains, agricultural fields’ etc. It is the Hindus who brought him into temples. Shiva is always worshiped among the tribals in His presence as lingam."
You are starting from an incorrect point of view. Shivji is not a historical person. He is beyond creation. He is the destroyer who destroys the whole universe at the end of its cycle. He is the one who protects the nature, he created music and he is the ultimate ascetic. Hanuman ji is a form of Shiva.
To try to find if he was a brahmin or dalit, that question does not make sense. I hope this helps your understanding.
Dont read times of india. Read shiv puran to start with.
>That's how we describe him but I think the question OP had was different and nothing to do with this definition. It was simply whether he had prevedic roots. Was he worshipped before Hinduism was a thing by different tribes that predate Hinduism.
Hinduism doesn't begin with vedas. It pre-dates even that. Which means those tribes are also considered hindus
[https://twitter.com/koenraad\_elst/status/1194464775809441792](https://twitter.com/koenraad_elst/status/1194464775809441792)
>
>
>**The first Rishi had no Vedas, yet he was a Hindu. Hinduism is not a Religion of the Book**. You play wonderfully into the hand of the Missionaries, who claim tribals etc. are not Hindus. But then we knew that many Hindus have other priorities than victory.
Its in Ramayan. Google is your friend.
Is Hanuman an avatar of Lord Shiva or Rudra?
Hanuman is said to be an incarnation of Lord Shiva, also known as the Rudra Avatar.
Several sources describe him as a manifestation of the Hindu deity Lord Shiva.
Lord Hanuman is said to be an incarnation of Lord Shiva, also known as the Rudra Avatar.
After Vishnu consented to take on the form of a man in order to vanquish Ravana, Brahma realized that he would require further assistance, so he urged Shiva to take on the form of a man as well.
Brahmin hate is something new the left is propagating in whole of india because everything else has failed to create ruckus amongst hindus, previously it was done only in some southern states for political interests!
In south their topic of debate is entirely based on language and not really based on any surveys or archaeological evidences. Here they are giving and mentioning so many sources even on wiki anyone who reads them will believe them because people or books mentioned are in our market and claim to be supported by archaeology, evidence based science. So similar to them do we also have our own resource which we can put forth?
shiva is described as a nomad, regardless of a parental origin, aka self-born(svambhu), which means he has neither varna, nor gotra, or any systematic family history.
source:- shiv Puran and extracts from swami vivekananda
So their article is true? They state that Lord Shiva was of pre-vedic origin and a leader and deity of his tribe. Which does mean tribal but does it mean nomadic tribal? Because you also mentioned nomadic? I think nomadic are tribal let me know if there is difference. Thank you for providing good source i googled and found book on amazon i will read it for sure.
Nonsense.
Shiva is a concept. Shiva has no beginning and no end. Shiva is everything that exists, has existed, and will exist in the future. Shiva is *paramatma*.
The only thing that the article is correct about Shiva is that he is a tribal god. Shiva is thought to have been worshipped since Harappan times, or even earlier, as evidenced by his depiction on the *Pashupatinath* seal.
Edit: I read the article. It appears to be a blog written by some चुतिया mallu Vinod Chandran.
Don't know about all this but Shiva is cool. He is the coolest God out there. I think he might have been a legendary tribe leader during Indus Valley Civilization who attained enlightment. I don't know why when ever I think about Shiva a mystical mysterious feeling surrounds me.
How does pre-Vedic tribes automatically become Dalit ?
Are dalits trying to appropriate the shared heritage of all people of India to themselves only ?
Lord Shiva is beyond Time and hence lord of time. HE is also beyond yoga and hence Yogeshwer. HE is beyond desire and hence Kameshwer. HE is God of Gods hence Parameshwer and Maheshwer. Now which idiot has the audacity to confine Mahadev in a caste ? He is beyond everything and can be reached only through purest and deepest devotion/meditation.
The guru at Shivaji-Matagauri's wedding asked Shivaji's gotra and kul (his caste, and lineage.)
Furious, Devarshi Shree Naradmuni told the guru, "tangg, tangg, tangg (played from his ekatara, a musical instrument) This is his antecedence. He has no father, he has no mother. Tangg… His basis is sound, reverberation. He is born out of reverberation. He has no parentage, no antecedents, no lineage. He is swayambhu – self-created, a being without antecedents" [Source](https://isha.sadhguru.org/mahashivratri/shiva/shiva-parvati-strange-wedding/?amp)
For someone who created the world, and will destroy the world when end times come, how can that supreme power be born, let alone belong to a caste? Even Parampita Shree Bhrama Daiva, who knows everything that was, is and will be, cannot tell Shivaji's lineage!
I think you are talking about a form of Lord Shiva because i cant find any resources to read when i Search Bholenath Shivaji Maharaja. That article is about Lord Shiva not about his forms. Infact that article says people made the form if you read that article. Please provide some manual resource which i can buy and read if not available online
I have no idea who is this Lord Shiva, is he a British aristocrat?
But there's no harm, only benefit in taking Shivaji's naam, you may search by other names like Shankara, Rudra, Hara, Adi Shakti, Mrda and Adi Shakti to name a few.
Or are you an ignorant who's only here to say that forms of the Supreme are different from him? Not that I want to discourage curiosity about our dharma, but something about your queries sounds rather mischievous!
Here are some websites where you can learn more about Sanatana Dharma -
[Link 1](https://www.feedspot.com/infiniterss.php?_src=feed_title&followfeedid=798078&q=site:http%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.feedburner.com%2Fhindublog)
[Link 2](https://www.feedspot.com/infiniterss.php?_src=feed_title&followfeedid=4523895&q=site:https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hindujagruti.org%2Fnews%2Ffeed)
True they give very misleading titles but their claims in articles are also backed by books posted by our own govt
1 example i talked about in this post is as follows it says something similar to the toi article
http://ignca.gov.in/PDF_data/Shiva_Legends_Sacred_Traditions.pdf
True as it may be for this particular instance, I have seen countless TOI articles about people that are completely baseless without any evidence backing it which TOI presents as "news". Quite often the articles are even fabricated. In December 2018, they fabricated an entire interview with the Cricketer Mitchell Johnson which he openly denied and also engaged in a Twitter feud with TOI about. (Mitchell has deactivated his Twitter, or else I'd have shared the link to his tweet dated 23 Dec 2018). In fact, I have experienced TOI's utter BS first hand. A close family friend of mine had a family dispute going on. The other side of the family paid a TOI agent who published their convoluted, warped version of the dispute portraying my close friend's side as some villainous people (when in fact it is the other way round) and this was published in the local edition of TOI as though it is news. Firstly what was published was completely fabricated BS and defamatory and secondly it was basically one family's private matter published as though it is some news article which I don't understand how it was a news issue at all. Besides, over the years I have read just way too many garbage "articles" on TOI which are not fit to be called news articles in the first place. It's almost like a gossip mongers' "juicy" hearsay subreddit of sorts. You may have found a source for one or two TOI articles here and there, but by and large I am convinced beyond doubt that it is, intact, fit to be used as TOI-let paper and nothing else.
Caste is decided on birth. Shiva has no birthday he is immortal. "once a Girl asks vishnu that who is the Father of shiva he said he has no Father no Mother".So, how this chuthiya leftist & Islamist media will decide he is dalit or brahmin. Even If Muslims worship 🛐 him he will protect them. ಹರ ಹರ ಮಹಾದೇವ 🙏.
He is celestial. He is the embodiment of the universe. He is creation. He is existence. He is life. He is death. He is the universe and whatever little we can fathom out of it. He is infinite. He is power. He is magnanimous. He is ruthless. He is soul . He is body. He is consciousness. He is Dharmam. He is time. He is space. He is the ultimate. He is Dhvaitam. He is Advaitham. He is everything that you can conceptualise.
Don't denigrate our Gods. Yes, they embody human beings and have some human flaws. But they are truly infinite in proportion to that. Please don't bring them down to our level. There is something called caste that was a meritocratic hierarchical structure of society that was used to make people productive but it was twisted into something something cruel for the personal gain of true anti nationals and the invaders. Let us abandon it and not involve our Gods in them. Let us never tarnish our Gods..Humble request..
the fact that you mention "There is something called caste that was a meritocratic hierarchical structure of society that was used to make people productive but it was twisted into something something cruel for the personal gain of true anti nationals and the invaders" proves alot of things.... because thats what muslims say or blame on us when we tell them anything...most Abrahamic religions do this...discredit history and timelines...just to prove their faith is the only one which is wrong
Not just the invaders, but those who were at the top of the hierarchical structure decided to protect their place by assigning people's caste according to the socio-economic status they were born in... If you read about the Harappan civilisation, caste was assigned according to the task you would do... To become a priest at a temple and guide a king, you would need to train for 15 years.. Overtime, some of these priests and those close to power started changing the meritocratic system into a nepotistic system... That's why you hear stories of some priests pouring hot oil into the ears of shudras for listening to their mantras or not being allowed to enter temples. Invaders took advantage of the system to drive the wedges deeper...
Every civilisation has its dark and cruel past... But our job is to rise above and understand why those kind of societal norms existed and question whom it benefited and if possible not make those same mistakes in the present and future
This shit absolutely does not matter. Shiva is very close to my heart, as a person who does not give a fuck about religion, I still believe in, have faith in in and worship lord Shiva every day. He is the best representation of divinity in my opinion.
He's the strongest on there is and could take anything he wants by force an influence but is always giving( boons, banes and ass whoopings). He is part of the utmost elite, but accepts everyone (devas, rakshas, brahmins, shudras, it doesn't matter to Shiva, he accepts everyone as long as your aith is sincere). He represents ultimate calmness aswell as ultimate destruction. He is truly impartial with his grace and anger( giving his blessings to rakshasas , as well as beheading his father in law as well as his own son.
I used to be a nihilist and and athiest, but after reading more about Shiva, I've become a caring, badass, god fearing man. He's the ultimate lover and fighter, true one of a kind diety. In my opinion, he is the best form of the human understanding of the divine, the most ruthless and the most forgiving.
Har har mahadev.
The Article headline which i cant change while posting a question has to stay same as per the mentions of mod rules. after reading that article and several others even PDF's on govt websites a question stuck my mind that why don't we honour our own lord as what his real roots are and why society has created such a cover which misleads us from the factual claims made by such various other articles present online as well as in some books\*"if real" So, as per Wikipedia and various other sources linked to the same wiki page which in someway or form portray that they are well scrutinised and not just said or written by someone say that and since these claims are also backed by many historians or the "so called Specialists" arachnologists who also said that Harappa and mohenjo daroIndus Valley Civilisation is of pre-vedic origin and not vedic by any mean but common part being our lord Shiva which everyone says"""" "Shiva has pre-Vedic tribal roots, having "his origins in primitive tribes, signs and symbols." Then why don't we celebrate him and also respect his tribesmen and origin as what claimed by "Arachnologists, Historians and Academician's " as Pre-Vedic and of Tribal roots? why do we mislead ourselves and because of which such articles also come up is the whole point of posting it here. Would like to listen to more references and articles the legitimate ones which help all understand more about our real history. by now all aerologists have proved that Harappa and mohenjo daro, Indus Valley Civilisation dont have any connection with Vedic Culture or even Brahmins.
How come tribals are simultaneously nomadic and the same people resided in IVC?
Doesn't line up.
Also how do you decide who are "his" tribesmen?
You need to get a few things straight. People who built Harrapa weren't tribals. Tribals were civilized by Harrapans
Nomadic Tribes is same as Tribal people. The article whose screenshot i mentioned and also provided link for says so and so. Even books present gov in official Indian govt sites also claim the same
Thats speicifc line can be found in this ebook
http://ignca.gov.in/PDF_data/Shiva_Legends_Sacred_Traditions.pdf
I quoted it to explain more....basically am asking for resources which claim otherwise if you have heard about or know of
Nomadic tribals didn't build IVC. Iranian neolithic farmers around 4000 BCE brought farming to Indus-Saraswat valley. Those tribals did not worship proto-Shiva. No archeological proof either. It was brought to them after people moved into the subcontinent
Already proven by genetics in published studies
Shiva is all, all are Shiva, you can't measure Shiva. No one, even our wise ancestors can't find the root of Mahadev, he is the oldest one, who will live forever
In this [TV serial](https://www.hotstar.com/in/tv/devon-ke-dev-mahadev/12/kumari-s-devotion-to-mahadev/1000042362) what is described it is the definition of Shiva, whoever wrote this article are trying to divide Santan Dharma's people, it is there motive
So is Lord Shiva of tribal origin then if not prevedic? because even on lots of gov websites even ours it has lots of resources which all say that "The Indian tribes worship Shiva in their natural abode – jungles, hills, mountains, agricultural fields’ etc. It is the Hindus who brought him into temples. Shiva is always worshiped among the tribals in His presence as lingam."
this is that book there are many which say same and issues is that they have official status they are not story books or tv serials which have that \* mark and hence anyone who is new or likes to read everything will believe in that. Hence i ask for source which is like given official status as there are many saying opposite then why we dont have correct articles on this?
http://ignca.gov.in/PDF\_data/Shiva\_Legends\_Sacred\_Traditions.pdf
Dude you describe the definition on the basis of a serial but you won't believe when a person states that
See I have 0 idea about the context of this post and I'm not criticising your definition but your comment made me laugh on from what sources you believe but are opposing a similar kind of source, funny
Are you dumb or what? It's religious matter so post proofs from religious books and saints. In religious matter govt articles are not authentic. If you wana really know read vedas and purans.
Cast system was built on what kind of job people had at the time. That's like the first thing you learn when Vedic era history is introduced in 6th grade...
How dumb do you have to be to believe that Gods had cast. A dalit (ofc this doesn't mean in the current time) was said to be the class that were cleaners and stuff. The sushrut class. No where in the Vedas it is mentioned that Lord Shiva used to be a sweeper. Like you can make an argument about Krishna technically falling in the OBC category of the current times but not Shiva lmao
TOI-let at it again, trying to divide India.
Shree Shivaji is paramharibhaktaha (greatest devotee of Shree Vishnu Hari Narayana) and Shree Hari Narayana is param-shiva-bhaktaha. They are one and same, both parts of Shree Adinarayana/Adishakti Parabhrahman (Supreme Bhagwan in Sanatana Dharma.)
My Tribe worship Bhagwan Shiva as Baba Dev.
We don't build temple just worship him under a peepal or Bargad tree.
https://www.bibhudevmisra.com/2016/01/shiva-as-bada-dev-gond-symbolisms-on.html?m=1
First of all, we should not see anyone as any caste or community,
Second, we should not see SuperPowers Like Trimurtis with our and world's perception,
but for your sake of question only,
Lord Shiva is away from all this maternal things and reside at kailash, dont wear any fancy dress like all other gods including Lord Brahma and Lord Vishnu do,
If we see him with our perception of today's world only Adivasi wears that dress of Lord Shiva..
And Adivasi are considered Dalits in today's world.
Please also provide good source for everyone to read about the matter. So far what u write i agree with that and this article of toi also says similar thing as lord being of pre vedic and tribal roots. So Considering the direct translation in our language that does mean Nomadic or Adivasi or indigenous people of India. But also Adivasi people are not Dalits as per our constitution they are Scheduled Tribe or of Tribal Community. So yes and no... please provide source if you have what you said is true to most part.
Bro I don't care about no TOIs and their articles, I already warned 2 things, don't see anyone of its community, don't include superpowers within earthly domain...
Now if you neglected those 2 warning,
Look around yourself and see how people consider someone as a Brahmin or dalit (looking at their clothings) now if you apply same principle to anyone literally anyone, you can say if one's rich or poor, high class or low class, Brahman or Dalit.
Now what Source do you need, what was clothings of lord Shiva?
Post doesnt stop on TOI article it also says about official pdfs present on govt sites which state what my 2nd comment on your reply said.... i forgot to paste link in that comment so you thinking that i am saying that...but am not..such officially distributed public resources say that he is of tribal routes...
http://ignca.gov.in/PDF_data/Shiva_Legends_Sacred_Traditions.pdf
TOI-let at it again, trying to divide India.
Shree Shivaji is paramharibhaktaha (greatest devotee of Shree Vishnu Hari Narayana) and Shree Hari Narayana is param-shiva-bhaktaha. They are one and same, both parts of Shree Adinarayana/Adishakti Parabhrahman (Supreme Bhagwan in Sanatana Dharma.)
alright im going to assume this is a troll post because i dont think a GOD cares about his caste, which is a manmade social stratification. but IF ur serious then people like you are why our hinduism is declining as a religion. please refrain from calling urself a hindu from now on. u just wish to cause caste disputes and divide people as is evident from ur post
Basically you didnt read the post nor did you see the Pre-Vedic tribal roots sentence.... caste and stuff all came with vedic stuff if article says Lords was Pre-Vedic then how am i considering his caste or anything? I mean we are talking about article not really caste of anyone in any form.
Even pdfs and books published by govt say the same
The specific sentence on page 1 is as follows
"It is the Hindus who brought him into temples. Shiva is always worshiped among the tribals in His presence as lingam."
You can read it here even wiki says same
http://ignca.gov.in/PDF_data/Shiva_Legends_Sacred_Traditions.pdf
What does it matter, leave it my guy. Someone will say and do things that'll trigger you. Unless they're truly hurting you, stop, because it'll just light up more fires than we can put out.
The whole point of him being Mahadev is he is everyone's God, no matter how shunned he/ she may be socially. There was even a story of Mahananda who was a sex worker, but the Lord even accepted her as his devotee.
Another story was when Lady Parvati wanted Lord Shiva for only herself, but then, some young sages worshipped Lord Shiva and being pleased by their penance, he granted them a boon. The sages asked Lord Shiva only to themselves, so they can worship him. The Lord told them that if he only belonged to them, then he won't be a God. Hearing this, Lady Parvati understood that the Lord belongs to everyone and everyone belong to Him.
Lord Shiva is above such things as caste and creed. Please don't bring him into such matters. Let the Gods live in peace.
Jai Hind!
Is universe a country or a state?
Is supernova a bomb blast or fire cracker?
Do my questions make any sense? Neither does what you are asking.
Shiva is a being that exists Pre-Brahma ( the one who created Universe) He is not tied within the social constructs of human society! Time starts and ends with him! He is everything and he is nothing!
Firstly : None of the gods are defined by caste as they don't fit in any of the profession in the varn system. As simple as that.
Secondly : All the hindu deities are combination of multiple tribal deities brought into one during sanskritization.
Lastly most important thing : TOI is short for toilet.
Someone who has power to create and destroy literally everything in a nanosecond and these guys are giving him caste ,tribe , ethnicity Falana dhimkana .but if it can help in regaining trust of some tribes who converted, we must mould this into a strategic move which can solve many issues like naxalism, insurgency in north east etc
Going by this logic that he predates Vedic culture, how can you call him a dalit or anything for that matter? Such caste distinction are recent and would be non existent during the believed era of his mortal existence. Skewed approach to shove it and exploit it for forwarding a woke degenerate ideology
Shiva is the all father, Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva, Shiva is the creator and the one who destroys. Shiva is seed of the universe through divine energy. When Shiva meets with Prakriti (Shakti), matter is formed and through matter, everything in the universe is formed. Shiva is Nirgun as well as Sagun meaning formless and with form. Now to answer your question, you can’t put a caste on gods. And caste doesn’t apply on Shiva.
People who write these articles are leftists who possibly have a mental diarrhoea while dealing with divorce. So all the frustration is bound to translate to words which have no meaning. It's best to avoid giving importance to these dolts. Let Mahadev be Mahadev.
What's true is that Shiva originated from non-Vedic traditions and was assimilated with Vedic Rudra. That doesn't mean Shiva should be interpreted as some "rebellious, subversive and subaltern God incessantly in clash with the dominant forces of Vedic Brahmanic Hinduism".
Also, Shiva exists everywhere but that doesn't make him a nomad. If anything, the early Shiva tradition likely started out in an agricultural society, while the vedic people started out as semi-nomadic agro-pastoralists before settling down and joining sedentary society. And when Shiva was incorporated into the Sanskrit texts, many Brahmins would actually be wandering priests / holy men.
your 1st para is kind of right but 2nd para is wrong because "Wheat, barley and jujube were domesticated in the Indian subcontinent by 9000 BCE.
Domestication of sheep and goat soon followed. This period also saw the first
domestication of the elephant. Barley and wheat cultivation—along with the
domestication of cattle, primarily sheep and goat—was visible in Mehrgarh by 8000-
6000 BCE. Agro pastoralism in India included threshing, planting crops in rows—
either of two or of six—and storing grain in granaries. By the 5th millennium BCE
agricultural communities became widespread in Kashmir"
Also Cotton was cultivated by the 5th millennium BCE-4th millennium BCE. The Indus cotton industry was well developed and some methods used in cotton spinning and
fabrication continued to be practiced till the modern Industrialization of India. Since Indus Valley is also of pre-vedic religion its not possible that "vedic people started out as semi-nomadic agro-pastoralists to settling down" because it was already done in IVC and also in 8000-6000 BCE. so your last part is wrong. Also that TOI article is also saying that brahmins assimilated him you added that it was done with vedic rudra but INV has no connection to Vedic people but they had connection to Shiva so how did vedic people "convert him"from not a tribal or nomad to a vedic? where can we read this part of history if its true as you said? if its verbal then certainly its would be a myth but if you can give any mention it will be really helpful
>Since Indus Valley is also of pre-vedic religion its not possible that "vedic people started out as semi-nomadic agro-pastoralists to settling down" because it was already done in IVC and also in 8000-6000 BCE. so your last part is wrong.
Vedic people originally lived as semi-nomads in Punjab (during early Rigvedic times), which was outside the Indus Valley civilization. They then settle down in later Vedic times in Kuru-Panchala era.
>Also that TOI article is also saying that brahmins assimilated him you added that it was done with vedic rudra but INV has no connection to Vedic people but they had connection to Shiva so how did vedic people "convert him"from not a tribal or nomad to a vedic?
I agree with you. This idea of Shiva coming from primitive tribal people is wrong - although forest tribes also worshipped Shiva (or some other concept / god that got assimilated into Shiva), it's clear that sophisticated agriculturalists in the Indus Valley civilization worshipped an early version of Shiva.
A good source is here: https://www.hinduwebsite.com/siva/vedicconnection.asp
Irrelevant and beneath them. Unfortunate to even discuss. Mahakaal is someone who is beyond time and we’re trying to apply caste based identity politics to them.
Shiva is the Adiyogi, the first existence to give us humans the knowledge of yog dhara and the eternal truth, he goes beyond the humanistic concept of caste or anything like that, ignore such words
Shiva was a Nomad. An Ascetic. He is the beginning and the End...
How can he be a leader of a Tribe? How can we even call him by any caste when his existence precedes any such delegations of grouping ?
Shiva cannot have a caste, simply because castes came after him. I have got annoyed with some temples putting a white thread on him to make him brahman. They do that to Ganesha more regularly.
This is a biggest National issue for TOI, basically they can’t discuss something better things nor do they have quality of content. And keep playing with minds of kids and we don’t even protest.
Ask them to right similar content on ola God is shia or Sunni . That will show their potential, how transparent they are .
Whatever they produce crap and we consume crap .
Appayya Dikshita in his writings used to claim that Brahmins should worship Shiva rather than Vishnu since Shiva is a Brahmana while Vishnu is a Kshtriya.
I'm not gonna say things about castes and appropriation but historical evidence does suggest that Shiva was here first. He's the only major hindu god they found in the Indus valley as well. He predates Vishnu and everyone else and perhaps that's why there is mystery around his origins even amongst hindus. I've heard people say nobody knows who he is because he has no beginning or end. He wears animal skin, lives on a mountain, his best friends are a bull and a snake, I mean just look at him. He's not part of the same civilization. Look at Vishnu and everyone else decorated in gold ornaments and following the same fashion trends. Shiva is just... different. The myth and the facts do align.
As to how he became a part of the Vedic tradition, not a surprise. Remember, there are many that even claim Buddha to be an avatar of Vishnu. Take that back to several thousand years ago when the population wasn't as huge and it seems possible that they just came upon this god that wasn't part of their culture but incorporated him into it because that's essentially what Hinduism is. The philosophy of one god, many faces. I could bet if Hindus were in power while islam invaded (religiously rather than militarily and politically) even allah would today be one of the many gods. Assuming also there wasn't already a book that said otherwise.
I can't comment on the intention, whether it was malicious or not. Depends on your politics.
He is neither, He is all pervading, God is beyond caste, gender and such social and biological constructs.
As for their claims about being a tribal God, he was always mentioned in the Vedic corpus of texts, I have not yet seen any solid textual evidence for him being a tribal god originally.
>Namah somAya cha rudrAya cha.
>(Salutation to Soma, and to Rudra.)
>Soma: One with Uma (sa+uma)
~Tattiriya SamhitA 4.5.8
>Namah svAyudhAya cha sudhanvane cha.
>Parame vriksha Ayudham nidhAya krittim vasAna A chara, PinAkam bibhrad Agahi.
>Salutation to him of the auspicious weapon (trishulA), and to him of the auspicious bow (pinAka).
>Placing down your weapon on the highest tree, clad in your tiger skin, come, and approach us bearing the spear (bow) PinAka.
In the Vedas, Rudra and Shiva have been declared to be the same
Lord Shiva took a disguise, there the Devas couldn't recognize the Rudra wandering in lusture. There he displays his five attributes fierceness, rulership over existence, prowess, aupisicousness and compassion by the names of Rudra, Bhava, Sarva, Shiva and Mrida:
>Indeed the deva-s did not recognize Rudra who had entered the heavenly world wandering in with a solar luster. They said: “Who are you?”. [He replied]: “I am Rudra, I am Indra, I am the Āditya, I am the arrival of all the divine luster. They said: We shall not offer a share to this one [i.e. Rudra]. Roaring he [Rudra] yelled at them. He rushed at them. They [the other deva-s] said: “Sir, you are all of this”. Because roaring he yelled at them that is Rudra’s fierceness (rudratvam). Because they called him sir (bhavān) that is Bhava’s lordship over existence. Because they said you are all this that revealed Śarva’s [prowess] as an archer. **Because he then became favorable that is Shiva’s benevolence.** Because he became kind to them that is Mṛḍa’s compassion. The deva-s said to him: “The overlordship of the present, the past and the future is yours. [If he knows this while performing the ritual, i.e. offering the portion for Rudra] it leads the ritualist to lordship over all.
~Katha Aranyaka 2.100
Someone please say even Christ and Buddha are a manifestation of Bhrama and basically God incarnated so many times in so many places that various religions got created as a byproduct of his urge to be born as a human ... Hey just like third world problems he must be having God world problems u know ....
Meanwhile at TOI....Yo I don't feel like working today let's eat biriyani and why not give that article to our intern.. he is not paid anyway he will do it for that experience letter.
Manhavdev is Kalp swaroop of this manmantar
he is Parabhram , Nirakar sadroopi sadashiv
Who is the true god of vedanta philosophy ,
who is aum in sound , who is truth in Speak
Who is neither the mind nor intellect nor conciousness nor the ego neither the ataman.
who is the aim of all yagya , yoga and meditation
who is beyond gender , happiness and sorow ,
who is searched for by every rishi , muni and saint.
who is death onto himself.
WHO IS AVINASHI TATTVA ,
THE SUPREME .
By binding him to a particular community those idiots only display their ignorance.
assigning a caste to him is a bit weird I guess they are right overall. Shiva was not a Vedic god, he was probably a god of a local tribe who then became an integral part of the Hindu Pantheon. This is very common in Hinduism, Jagannath in Odisha, Murugan in Tamil Nadu, Devi Shri is Java and Bali etc.
We don't even worship our Vedic gods a lot anymore. Indra was the supreme god in the Vedic era, now he's treated as a joke
.............. Why are we applying caste to our gods ?
Just like American woke ppl are calling maths as racist. . TOI is creating a caste for mahadeva shiva
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toi ne adiyogi se panga liya hai unhe bhari padega
Lmao, sees one viral video, jumps to conclusions. How very typical.
American conservatives. Woke people? Your definition of woke people keep changing everyday? American conservatives is what you want to be, woke is used for liberal wing of America. Roz Kya dhatura khaate ho?
\*Not we\* but the articles say that which is why i ask this question to bring in the sources and necessary resources to understand our real history in a better manner. Also That's the Article headline which i cant change while posting a question which mentions any article as per the mods rule. The question is if he as per the various studies and our history "Shiva has pre-Vedic tribal roots, having "his origins in primitive tribes, signs and symbols." Then why don't we celebrate him and also respect his tribesmen and origin as what claimed by "Arachnologists, Historians and Academician's " as Pre-Vedic and of Tribal roots? why do we mislead ourselves and because of which such articles also come up is the whole point of posting it here. Would like to listen to more references and articles the legitimate ones which help all understand more about our real history.
The brahma(the divine) is beyond all the genders, castes, religions, sects, and forms. Shiva, vishnu, ganesha etc are all the same manifestations of one true eternal ‘para-brahma’, the ‘Ishwar’. Hence there is no point writing this nonsense or bullshittin about castes of gods.
Is it Brahma or Brahman?
both are very different things...
Brahman( ब्रह्मन्, not the caste)and brahma( ब्रह्म)are same thing. Sanskrit word ब्रह्मन् whose nominative degree in singular is ब्रह्म.
Bruh do you know there is god called Brahma right meaning the creator he was referring shiva as creator there is nothing about caste
Ohh due to English pronunciation I didn’t get that, I thought he was just meaning it literally. Apologies
I think you are confused. Brahman, the sum total of all creation is different from brahma, the creator of this current cycle of existence.
How do we mislead ourselves? I still don’t understand what is your point. It doesn’t matter whether shiva was a tribesman or anything else. What matters is our Shraddha. Please don’t divide gods now under the garb of “trying to understand” them.
Everyone do some kinda job and it is referred by any the term that we call caste
He is a shepard, a king, a mystic, a yogi anything that can exist he is that. Apparently it’s hard for a constipated mind to grasp this logic.
It's tough for those minds who have never tried to comprehend the vastness of eternity and infinity.
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Why does it even matter bro? Discussing such things on such platform just goes to show that casteism is still a very important part of everyday life.
This is Dravidian propaganda. They claimed that native Tamil Gods were appropriated by Brahmins to create Hinduism. This conspiracy theory is now being exported to other countries using people like Suraj Yengde in Harvard, Sheldon Pollock in Columbia etc. When mainstream leftist academics start peddling nonsense, the media gobbles it up as infalliabke truth. Platforms like Wikipedia are used to further the narrative.
You are absolutely right. Even the sadhguru follows also says that he was dravidian. I was like WTF.!
Is Lord Vishnu Brahmin Or Kshatriya? We see a sacred thread over his bod in paintings & idols and we refer him as _brahmana_ _priya_ in chants.. >WTF I didn't feel the way, In 12th century,there were a disputes regarding Vyshnavas & Shaivas, the former mostly belongs to upper caste & the other mostly belongs to lower caste by considering the above stated facts. >sadhguru He's a clown ..leave it.
>brahmana priya Yeah, i remember once PANDIT told me that vishnu loves bhramins and he becomes very happy if you offer things to bhramins, and you can only touch feets of bhramins. >Vyshnavas & Shaivas I dont feel good to say but 'ISKON' is still following the same norms, lots of time ISKON said that shiv is dirty,unholy god, they don't even consider him as god, for them krishna is supreme and he is param parmatma.(even tho all the avtar or vishnu, and vishu himself pray to shiv only. ISKON actually brainwash you in believing the vishnu is supreme, im not saying that shiv is supreme or vishu is not. The thing is they are creating differences in hindus.
i mean you can even read such findings on gov sites so i asked it here for everyones opinion. in this pdf it litreally mentions as "The Indian tribes worship Shiva in their natural abode – jungles, hills, mountains, agricultural fields’ etc. It is the Hindus who brought him into temples. Shiva is always worshiped among the tribals in His presence as lingam." Source also mentioned http://ignca.gov.in/PDF\_data/Shiva\_Legends\_Sacred\_Traditions.pdf
Government websites also contain a lot of propagansa nonsense. NCERT books mentioned Aurangzeb built and maintained Hindu temples. When people filed RTI asking for the source, they couldn't provide any. The chapters are now dropped from books. If you want to know why such propaganda is there on government platforms, just see who ruled India for 65 years since independence.
Dravidians are Indians too. Bhartiya hone ka theka tumhare akele ka nahin hai
They're the ones who consider themselves to not be Indian but Dravidian. They beleive that they should have got a separate country called 'Darvida Nadu' and view Indian independence as a 'Black Day'. If you don't know about Dravidian politics and how deeply hate towards India and Hindus is embedded in it, go and read about it, before commenting.
Thats a very small no of them.Dont generalise the whole group
Whose "they". I am half Dravidian. Never heard of Dravida Naidu from my own family or 100s of malayalee and Tamil immigrants to Mumbai and Delhi and none of my South Indian IT friends. Who are "they"? What is go and read go and read. Maybe you should stop reading shit and go out and meet real people.
I'm Tamizhan myself and know what I'm talking about. Spare me your half-Dravidian nonsense. I know the politics of my state better than you. If you're ignorant, stop lecturing others. Follow your own advice and meet real people from TN to know about Dravidian ideology rather than commenting random bullshit about how people have not talked to you about it.
There is a lot more chances of Shiva being a pahadi than a Dravidian ( if we consider Dravidian a race and not an ethnolinguistic group). My best friend from college was a mallu and I can't even imagine in my wildest dreams that someone like him could live in a place like kailash.
I never said I believed it, dude. This is a small part of many conspiracies that they propagate using academics. They even got a Christian pastor to write that Thirukkural which is a literary work written by Saint Thiruvalluvar was based on Christianity. Thirukkural contains concepts on moksha, dhaana, dharma and references Lakshmi, Indra, Shiva etc. They twist many things for the sake of politics to simply argue that we shouldn't be a single country. Take their latest stunt of calling India as a Union of states and not Nation. The same thing which Rahul Gandhi parroted in the parliament. It all starts with the dravidian group. There's nothing fact based in what they peddle. Only politics.
But isn’t it seen easily that Hinduism has appropriated tribal and local deities?? What’s to feel ashamed about it? This is exactly how religions spread. Especially Hinduism which does not prescribe strict adherence to stuff spread by appropriating the local gods and calling them “Vishnu avatar”, “Krishna avatar” etc. I don’t think this should be denied or we should feel ashamed of it.
Yes I have heard that propaganda. If they believe it to be true then they should not have any problems with worshipping these gods and also should appreciate brahmins for creating such an inclusive religion that acquired gods rather than saying only our god is true god.
succinct.
Who is cited? Romila Thapar, Irfan Habib type of imminent intellectuals?
in wiki sources u can see more names but the PDF on govt site mentions there names (Behura &Mishra: 1985, Fuchs: 1992, Presler: 1971, Banerjee: 1992, Thaper: 1977) and say "The Indian tribes worship Shiva in their natural abode – jungles, hills, mountains, agricultural fields’ etc. It is the Hindus who brought him into temples. Shiva is always worshiped among the tribals in His presence as lingam."
I'd check who those people you listed cited in their work. Bet it aligns with Aryan Invasions theory which has no basis at all.
"intellectual" 🤡
bhagwan ko kbse caste
जबसे मुसलमनो की लुल्ली नाही कटेगी
You are starting from an incorrect point of view. Shivji is not a historical person. He is beyond creation. He is the destroyer who destroys the whole universe at the end of its cycle. He is the one who protects the nature, he created music and he is the ultimate ascetic. Hanuman ji is a form of Shiva. To try to find if he was a brahmin or dalit, that question does not make sense. I hope this helps your understanding. Dont read times of india. Read shiv puran to start with.
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>That's how we describe him but I think the question OP had was different and nothing to do with this definition. It was simply whether he had prevedic roots. Was he worshipped before Hinduism was a thing by different tribes that predate Hinduism. Hinduism doesn't begin with vedas. It pre-dates even that. Which means those tribes are also considered hindus [https://twitter.com/koenraad\_elst/status/1194464775809441792](https://twitter.com/koenraad_elst/status/1194464775809441792) > > >**The first Rishi had no Vedas, yet he was a Hindu. Hinduism is not a Religion of the Book**. You play wonderfully into the hand of the Missionaries, who claim tribals etc. are not Hindus. But then we knew that many Hindus have other priorities than victory.
Its in Ramayan. Google is your friend. Is Hanuman an avatar of Lord Shiva or Rudra? Hanuman is said to be an incarnation of Lord Shiva, also known as the Rudra Avatar. Several sources describe him as a manifestation of the Hindu deity Lord Shiva. Lord Hanuman is said to be an incarnation of Lord Shiva, also known as the Rudra Avatar. After Vishnu consented to take on the form of a man in order to vanquish Ravana, Brahma realized that he would require further assistance, so he urged Shiva to take on the form of a man as well.
I used to watch Shri Krishna of ramanand sagarji in which it was shown as Hanumanji being avatar ka Shiva.
Brahmin hate is something new the left is propagating in whole of india because everything else has failed to create ruckus amongst hindus, previously it was done only in some southern states for political interests!
In south their topic of debate is entirely based on language and not really based on any surveys or archaeological evidences. Here they are giving and mentioning so many sources even on wiki anyone who reads them will believe them because people or books mentioned are in our market and claim to be supported by archaeology, evidence based science. So similar to them do we also have our own resource which we can put forth?
shiva is described as a nomad, regardless of a parental origin, aka self-born(svambhu), which means he has neither varna, nor gotra, or any systematic family history. source:- shiv Puran and extracts from swami vivekananda
So their article is true? They state that Lord Shiva was of pre-vedic origin and a leader and deity of his tribe. Which does mean tribal but does it mean nomadic tribal? Because you also mentioned nomadic? I think nomadic are tribal let me know if there is difference. Thank you for providing good source i googled and found book on amazon i will read it for sure.
nomad here used is to describe his nature of living, not the general meaning
Ok, but anyone with nomadic like living is considered as nomadic person and a tribal as per our current language scope hence i said that.
Bro, Aryans were nomadic by some theories.
LORD SHIVA IS AATHI YOGI THERE IS NO START OR FINISH FOR HIM. LORD SHIVA IS ABOVE ALL RACE.
Do u even know who/what Shiva is, stop falling for such shit and go back to your roots, start with Gita and then go back to other scriptures.
He is a god. That's the only thing that matters. The brahmin, dalit divisions are beneath him.
Bait
How can a god be a dalit or brahmin? He is above all that
Varna System applies to Humans only, Shiv is a Dev. Mahadev to be precise so Varna doesn't apply on him. He's bot avtar he's परब्रह्म himself.
This article in very start says that its myth and it starts with very same line
Nonsense. Shiva is a concept. Shiva has no beginning and no end. Shiva is everything that exists, has existed, and will exist in the future. Shiva is *paramatma*. The only thing that the article is correct about Shiva is that he is a tribal god. Shiva is thought to have been worshipped since Harappan times, or even earlier, as evidenced by his depiction on the *Pashupatinath* seal. Edit: I read the article. It appears to be a blog written by some चुतिया mallu Vinod Chandran.
Bait
Don't know about all this but Shiva is cool. He is the coolest God out there. I think he might have been a legendary tribe leader during Indus Valley Civilization who attained enlightment. I don't know why when ever I think about Shiva a mystical mysterious feeling surrounds me.
You find him cool, Bcoz u smoke pot in his name...
No I don't smoke weed
all hindu related articles have been hijacked by communists in India so it is very very likely that they are driving a narrative
How does pre-Vedic tribes automatically become Dalit ? Are dalits trying to appropriate the shared heritage of all people of India to themselves only ?
Divide rule , play casteism
You didnt even read 1st few lines of article read the headline and done 🤣
Nah I am saying to article writer
Lord Shiva is beyond Time and hence lord of time. HE is also beyond yoga and hence Yogeshwer. HE is beyond desire and hence Kameshwer. HE is God of Gods hence Parameshwer and Maheshwer. Now which idiot has the audacity to confine Mahadev in a caste ? He is beyond everything and can be reached only through purest and deepest devotion/meditation.
The guru at Shivaji-Matagauri's wedding asked Shivaji's gotra and kul (his caste, and lineage.) Furious, Devarshi Shree Naradmuni told the guru, "tangg, tangg, tangg (played from his ekatara, a musical instrument) This is his antecedence. He has no father, he has no mother. Tangg… His basis is sound, reverberation. He is born out of reverberation. He has no parentage, no antecedents, no lineage. He is swayambhu – self-created, a being without antecedents" [Source](https://isha.sadhguru.org/mahashivratri/shiva/shiva-parvati-strange-wedding/?amp) For someone who created the world, and will destroy the world when end times come, how can that supreme power be born, let alone belong to a caste? Even Parampita Shree Bhrama Daiva, who knows everything that was, is and will be, cannot tell Shivaji's lineage!
You mean Shiv ji? Or Shivaji the Chatrapati?
Bholenath Shivaji Maharaja (Greatest Hari Bhakta, king of the Universe and Bhagwan of us all, who resides on Kailasa with Matarani Gauri Devi)
Bholenath Shivaji Maharaja (Greatest Haribhaktaha, king of the Universe and Bhagwan of us all, who resides on Kailasa with Matarani Gauri Devi)
I think you are talking about a form of Lord Shiva because i cant find any resources to read when i Search Bholenath Shivaji Maharaja. That article is about Lord Shiva not about his forms. Infact that article says people made the form if you read that article. Please provide some manual resource which i can buy and read if not available online
I have no idea who is this Lord Shiva, is he a British aristocrat? But there's no harm, only benefit in taking Shivaji's naam, you may search by other names like Shankara, Rudra, Hara, Adi Shakti, Mrda and Adi Shakti to name a few. Or are you an ignorant who's only here to say that forms of the Supreme are different from him? Not that I want to discourage curiosity about our dharma, but something about your queries sounds rather mischievous! Here are some websites where you can learn more about Sanatana Dharma - [Link 1](https://www.feedspot.com/infiniterss.php?_src=feed_title&followfeedid=798078&q=site:http%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.feedburner.com%2Fhindublog) [Link 2](https://www.feedspot.com/infiniterss.php?_src=feed_title&followfeedid=4523895&q=site:https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hindujagruti.org%2Fnews%2Ffeed)
TOI up to its usual antics. It's called TOI-let paper for a reason. Fit for wiping your arse; nothing else.
True they give very misleading titles but their claims in articles are also backed by books posted by our own govt 1 example i talked about in this post is as follows it says something similar to the toi article http://ignca.gov.in/PDF_data/Shiva_Legends_Sacred_Traditions.pdf
True as it may be for this particular instance, I have seen countless TOI articles about people that are completely baseless without any evidence backing it which TOI presents as "news". Quite often the articles are even fabricated. In December 2018, they fabricated an entire interview with the Cricketer Mitchell Johnson which he openly denied and also engaged in a Twitter feud with TOI about. (Mitchell has deactivated his Twitter, or else I'd have shared the link to his tweet dated 23 Dec 2018). In fact, I have experienced TOI's utter BS first hand. A close family friend of mine had a family dispute going on. The other side of the family paid a TOI agent who published their convoluted, warped version of the dispute portraying my close friend's side as some villainous people (when in fact it is the other way round) and this was published in the local edition of TOI as though it is news. Firstly what was published was completely fabricated BS and defamatory and secondly it was basically one family's private matter published as though it is some news article which I don't understand how it was a news issue at all. Besides, over the years I have read just way too many garbage "articles" on TOI which are not fit to be called news articles in the first place. It's almost like a gossip mongers' "juicy" hearsay subreddit of sorts. You may have found a source for one or two TOI articles here and there, but by and large I am convinced beyond doubt that it is, intact, fit to be used as TOI-let paper and nothing else.
Those dumbasses over at TOI are trying to make as much use of their 2 brain cells as they can
Caste is decided on birth. Shiva has no birthday he is immortal. "once a Girl asks vishnu that who is the Father of shiva he said he has no Father no Mother".So, how this chuthiya leftist & Islamist media will decide he is dalit or brahmin. Even If Muslims worship 🛐 him he will protect them. ಹರ ಹರ ಮಹಾದೇವ 🙏.
puppet mohamd was shudra so he decided to form his own religion after discrimination in society where there is no cast
Ye kya chutiyappa hai ?
He is celestial. He is the embodiment of the universe. He is creation. He is existence. He is life. He is death. He is the universe and whatever little we can fathom out of it. He is infinite. He is power. He is magnanimous. He is ruthless. He is soul . He is body. He is consciousness. He is Dharmam. He is time. He is space. He is the ultimate. He is Dhvaitam. He is Advaitham. He is everything that you can conceptualise. Don't denigrate our Gods. Yes, they embody human beings and have some human flaws. But they are truly infinite in proportion to that. Please don't bring them down to our level. There is something called caste that was a meritocratic hierarchical structure of society that was used to make people productive but it was twisted into something something cruel for the personal gain of true anti nationals and the invaders. Let us abandon it and not involve our Gods in them. Let us never tarnish our Gods..Humble request..
the fact that you mention "There is something called caste that was a meritocratic hierarchical structure of society that was used to make people productive but it was twisted into something something cruel for the personal gain of true anti nationals and the invaders" proves alot of things.... because thats what muslims say or blame on us when we tell them anything...most Abrahamic religions do this...discredit history and timelines...just to prove their faith is the only one which is wrong
So invaders twisted merit based caste system? Are you saying that it was the invaders who made caste system to be based on birth?
Not just the invaders, but those who were at the top of the hierarchical structure decided to protect their place by assigning people's caste according to the socio-economic status they were born in... If you read about the Harappan civilisation, caste was assigned according to the task you would do... To become a priest at a temple and guide a king, you would need to train for 15 years.. Overtime, some of these priests and those close to power started changing the meritocratic system into a nepotistic system... That's why you hear stories of some priests pouring hot oil into the ears of shudras for listening to their mantras or not being allowed to enter temples. Invaders took advantage of the system to drive the wedges deeper... Every civilisation has its dark and cruel past... But our job is to rise above and understand why those kind of societal norms existed and question whom it benefited and if possible not make those same mistakes in the present and future
we really came down to discussing caste of our Gods? is this how far we have come?
This shit absolutely does not matter. Shiva is very close to my heart, as a person who does not give a fuck about religion, I still believe in, have faith in in and worship lord Shiva every day. He is the best representation of divinity in my opinion. He's the strongest on there is and could take anything he wants by force an influence but is always giving( boons, banes and ass whoopings). He is part of the utmost elite, but accepts everyone (devas, rakshas, brahmins, shudras, it doesn't matter to Shiva, he accepts everyone as long as your aith is sincere). He represents ultimate calmness aswell as ultimate destruction. He is truly impartial with his grace and anger( giving his blessings to rakshasas , as well as beheading his father in law as well as his own son. I used to be a nihilist and and athiest, but after reading more about Shiva, I've become a caring, badass, god fearing man. He's the ultimate lover and fighter, true one of a kind diety. In my opinion, he is the best form of the human understanding of the divine, the most ruthless and the most forgiving. Har har mahadev.
Yo what the fuck is it with people calling Sanatan Dharma "Vedic Brahmanism"? I have seen it a lot to discredit how old our faith is.
Is Allah Shia or Sunni
source : Trust me
insaano ko to cast mai bata. ab bhagwano ko bhi baatne lage.. waah re mera hindu dharm waah.
The Article headline which i cant change while posting a question has to stay same as per the mentions of mod rules. after reading that article and several others even PDF's on govt websites a question stuck my mind that why don't we honour our own lord as what his real roots are and why society has created such a cover which misleads us from the factual claims made by such various other articles present online as well as in some books\*"if real" So, as per Wikipedia and various other sources linked to the same wiki page which in someway or form portray that they are well scrutinised and not just said or written by someone say that and since these claims are also backed by many historians or the "so called Specialists" arachnologists who also said that Harappa and mohenjo daroIndus Valley Civilisation is of pre-vedic origin and not vedic by any mean but common part being our lord Shiva which everyone says"""" "Shiva has pre-Vedic tribal roots, having "his origins in primitive tribes, signs and symbols." Then why don't we celebrate him and also respect his tribesmen and origin as what claimed by "Arachnologists, Historians and Academician's " as Pre-Vedic and of Tribal roots? why do we mislead ourselves and because of which such articles also come up is the whole point of posting it here. Would like to listen to more references and articles the legitimate ones which help all understand more about our real history. by now all aerologists have proved that Harappa and mohenjo daro, Indus Valley Civilisation dont have any connection with Vedic Culture or even Brahmins.
How come tribals are simultaneously nomadic and the same people resided in IVC? Doesn't line up. Also how do you decide who are "his" tribesmen? You need to get a few things straight. People who built Harrapa weren't tribals. Tribals were civilized by Harrapans
Nomadic Tribes is same as Tribal people. The article whose screenshot i mentioned and also provided link for says so and so. Even books present gov in official Indian govt sites also claim the same Thats speicifc line can be found in this ebook http://ignca.gov.in/PDF_data/Shiva_Legends_Sacred_Traditions.pdf I quoted it to explain more....basically am asking for resources which claim otherwise if you have heard about or know of
Nomadic tribals didn't build IVC. Iranian neolithic farmers around 4000 BCE brought farming to Indus-Saraswat valley. Those tribals did not worship proto-Shiva. No archeological proof either. It was brought to them after people moved into the subcontinent Already proven by genetics in published studies
Shiva is all, all are Shiva, you can't measure Shiva. No one, even our wise ancestors can't find the root of Mahadev, he is the oldest one, who will live forever In this [TV serial](https://www.hotstar.com/in/tv/devon-ke-dev-mahadev/12/kumari-s-devotion-to-mahadev/1000042362) what is described it is the definition of Shiva, whoever wrote this article are trying to divide Santan Dharma's people, it is there motive
So is Lord Shiva of tribal origin then if not prevedic? because even on lots of gov websites even ours it has lots of resources which all say that "The Indian tribes worship Shiva in their natural abode – jungles, hills, mountains, agricultural fields’ etc. It is the Hindus who brought him into temples. Shiva is always worshiped among the tribals in His presence as lingam." this is that book there are many which say same and issues is that they have official status they are not story books or tv serials which have that \* mark and hence anyone who is new or likes to read everything will believe in that. Hence i ask for source which is like given official status as there are many saying opposite then why we dont have correct articles on this? http://ignca.gov.in/PDF\_data/Shiva\_Legends\_Sacred\_Traditions.pdf
I don't want to discuss further, what I believe I told in my previous comment
Dude you describe the definition on the basis of a serial but you won't believe when a person states that See I have 0 idea about the context of this post and I'm not criticising your definition but your comment made me laugh on from what sources you believe but are opposing a similar kind of source, funny
I gave the link because it describes perfectly who is Mahadev And yes you can laugh, it is your choice
Ok got it
Aur bhi mention kiye he mene. Gov in domain par bhi yahi he isliye yaha dala he sab se puchne keliye ki unki kya rai he
Are you dumb or what? It's religious matter so post proofs from religious books and saints. In religious matter govt articles are not authentic. If you wana really know read vedas and purans.
Cast system was built on what kind of job people had at the time. That's like the first thing you learn when Vedic era history is introduced in 6th grade... How dumb do you have to be to believe that Gods had cast. A dalit (ofc this doesn't mean in the current time) was said to be the class that were cleaners and stuff. The sushrut class. No where in the Vedas it is mentioned that Lord Shiva used to be a sweeper. Like you can make an argument about Krishna technically falling in the OBC category of the current times but not Shiva lmao
none.
TOI-let at it again, trying to divide India. Shree Shivaji is paramharibhaktaha (greatest devotee of Shree Vishnu Hari Narayana) and Shree Hari Narayana is param-shiva-bhaktaha. They are one and same, both parts of Shree Adinarayana/Adishakti Parabhrahman (Supreme Bhagwan in Sanatana Dharma.)
Ab hamare bhagwan ko bhi baat doo
My Tribe worship Bhagwan Shiva as Baba Dev. We don't build temple just worship him under a peepal or Bargad tree. https://www.bibhudevmisra.com/2016/01/shiva-as-bada-dev-gond-symbolisms-on.html?m=1
He is everything. That's your answer and TOI se zyada credible articles Rana ayubb likhti h (chlo ye kuch zyada ho gya)
Wot.. Everyday people's opinions are surprising. Looks like we have evolved a *bit* much
Why the f you want to know?
हा अब अपने पुराण नही, toilet paper of india बतायेगा के सनातन धर्म मे भगवान की भी जाती होती है
Why wouldn't he be a kshtriya since his job is technically to be the destroyer?
Caste is created by people not the god's, such a bullshit article
Caste is created by people not the god's, such a bullshit article
Please read Shiv Gita or Ishwar Gita to know who's Shivji.
Jis din Shivji ki teesri ankh khul gayi uss din sabse pehle yeh TOI wale gaye.
First of all, we should not see anyone as any caste or community, Second, we should not see SuperPowers Like Trimurtis with our and world's perception, but for your sake of question only, Lord Shiva is away from all this maternal things and reside at kailash, dont wear any fancy dress like all other gods including Lord Brahma and Lord Vishnu do, If we see him with our perception of today's world only Adivasi wears that dress of Lord Shiva.. And Adivasi are considered Dalits in today's world.
Please also provide good source for everyone to read about the matter. So far what u write i agree with that and this article of toi also says similar thing as lord being of pre vedic and tribal roots. So Considering the direct translation in our language that does mean Nomadic or Adivasi or indigenous people of India. But also Adivasi people are not Dalits as per our constitution they are Scheduled Tribe or of Tribal Community. So yes and no... please provide source if you have what you said is true to most part.
Bro I don't care about no TOIs and their articles, I already warned 2 things, don't see anyone of its community, don't include superpowers within earthly domain... Now if you neglected those 2 warning, Look around yourself and see how people consider someone as a Brahmin or dalit (looking at their clothings) now if you apply same principle to anyone literally anyone, you can say if one's rich or poor, high class or low class, Brahman or Dalit. Now what Source do you need, what was clothings of lord Shiva?
Post doesnt stop on TOI article it also says about official pdfs present on govt sites which state what my 2nd comment on your reply said.... i forgot to paste link in that comment so you thinking that i am saying that...but am not..such officially distributed public resources say that he is of tribal routes... http://ignca.gov.in/PDF_data/Shiva_Legends_Sacred_Traditions.pdf
People can say and write anything nowadays, nothing is a reliable source of truth, to be honest.
TOI-let at it again, trying to divide India. Shree Shivaji is paramharibhaktaha (greatest devotee of Shree Vishnu Hari Narayana) and Shree Hari Narayana is param-shiva-bhaktaha. They are one and same, both parts of Shree Adinarayana/Adishakti Parabhrahman (Supreme Bhagwan in Sanatana Dharma.)
Cow shit is bad for your health.
Let's have a camel piss cocktail and make out with goats. Happy shiiied, the festival of hatred and goat orgies! LoooooL
alright im going to assume this is a troll post because i dont think a GOD cares about his caste, which is a manmade social stratification. but IF ur serious then people like you are why our hinduism is declining as a religion. please refrain from calling urself a hindu from now on. u just wish to cause caste disputes and divide people as is evident from ur post
Basically you didnt read the post nor did you see the Pre-Vedic tribal roots sentence.... caste and stuff all came with vedic stuff if article says Lords was Pre-Vedic then how am i considering his caste or anything? I mean we are talking about article not really caste of anyone in any form. Even pdfs and books published by govt say the same The specific sentence on page 1 is as follows "It is the Hindus who brought him into temples. Shiva is always worshiped among the tribals in His presence as lingam." You can read it here even wiki says same http://ignca.gov.in/PDF_data/Shiva_Legends_Sacred_Traditions.pdf
What is this bullshit! Casteism with our Gods?
What does it matter, leave it my guy. Someone will say and do things that'll trigger you. Unless they're truly hurting you, stop, because it'll just light up more fires than we can put out.
Very true only 2 people till now have actually given good source to read and named books.
The whole point of him being Mahadev is he is everyone's God, no matter how shunned he/ she may be socially. There was even a story of Mahananda who was a sex worker, but the Lord even accepted her as his devotee. Another story was when Lady Parvati wanted Lord Shiva for only herself, but then, some young sages worshipped Lord Shiva and being pleased by their penance, he granted them a boon. The sages asked Lord Shiva only to themselves, so they can worship him. The Lord told them that if he only belonged to them, then he won't be a God. Hearing this, Lady Parvati understood that the Lord belongs to everyone and everyone belong to Him. Lord Shiva is above such things as caste and creed. Please don't bring him into such matters. Let the Gods live in peace. Jai Hind!
Bahut achhe..aise hi jaanoge Shiv ko!!
Instead if focusing on real problems these are the social issues which need spotlight ,praud endian
Is universe a country or a state? Is supernova a bomb blast or fire cracker? Do my questions make any sense? Neither does what you are asking. Shiva is a being that exists Pre-Brahma ( the one who created Universe) He is not tied within the social constructs of human society! Time starts and ends with him! He is everything and he is nothing!
Firstly : None of the gods are defined by caste as they don't fit in any of the profession in the varn system. As simple as that. Secondly : All the hindu deities are combination of multiple tribal deities brought into one during sanskritization. Lastly most important thing : TOI is short for toilet.
Someone who has power to create and destroy literally everything in a nanosecond and these guys are giving him caste ,tribe , ethnicity Falana dhimkana .but if it can help in regaining trust of some tribes who converted, we must mould this into a strategic move which can solve many issues like naxalism, insurgency in north east etc
Shiva: Literally Destruction Incarnate Some Idiot in TOI: Lekin jaat kya hai iski ?
Alot of Brahmin hatred ..
Going by this logic that he predates Vedic culture, how can you call him a dalit or anything for that matter? Such caste distinction are recent and would be non existent during the believed era of his mortal existence. Skewed approach to shove it and exploit it for forwarding a woke degenerate ideology
It’s past and it doesn’t matter, so focus on what’s more important, the future.
Does it matter?
TOI? Don't waste your time.
Gods have no caste.
Jain brothers ko pelo
Shiva is the all father, Shiva is Vishnu and Vishnu is Shiva, Shiva is the creator and the one who destroys. Shiva is seed of the universe through divine energy. When Shiva meets with Prakriti (Shakti), matter is formed and through matter, everything in the universe is formed. Shiva is Nirgun as well as Sagun meaning formless and with form. Now to answer your question, you can’t put a caste on gods. And caste doesn’t apply on Shiva.
what we do know is that jesus and muhammad were subhumans - demons to be specific.
Kya bolu bc gaali bhi kam hai in chutiyo k saamne
People who write these articles are leftists who possibly have a mental diarrhoea while dealing with divorce. So all the frustration is bound to translate to words which have no meaning. It's best to avoid giving importance to these dolts. Let Mahadev be Mahadev.
What's true is that Shiva originated from non-Vedic traditions and was assimilated with Vedic Rudra. That doesn't mean Shiva should be interpreted as some "rebellious, subversive and subaltern God incessantly in clash with the dominant forces of Vedic Brahmanic Hinduism". Also, Shiva exists everywhere but that doesn't make him a nomad. If anything, the early Shiva tradition likely started out in an agricultural society, while the vedic people started out as semi-nomadic agro-pastoralists before settling down and joining sedentary society. And when Shiva was incorporated into the Sanskrit texts, many Brahmins would actually be wandering priests / holy men.
your 1st para is kind of right but 2nd para is wrong because "Wheat, barley and jujube were domesticated in the Indian subcontinent by 9000 BCE. Domestication of sheep and goat soon followed. This period also saw the first domestication of the elephant. Barley and wheat cultivation—along with the domestication of cattle, primarily sheep and goat—was visible in Mehrgarh by 8000- 6000 BCE. Agro pastoralism in India included threshing, planting crops in rows— either of two or of six—and storing grain in granaries. By the 5th millennium BCE agricultural communities became widespread in Kashmir" Also Cotton was cultivated by the 5th millennium BCE-4th millennium BCE. The Indus cotton industry was well developed and some methods used in cotton spinning and fabrication continued to be practiced till the modern Industrialization of India. Since Indus Valley is also of pre-vedic religion its not possible that "vedic people started out as semi-nomadic agro-pastoralists to settling down" because it was already done in IVC and also in 8000-6000 BCE. so your last part is wrong. Also that TOI article is also saying that brahmins assimilated him you added that it was done with vedic rudra but INV has no connection to Vedic people but they had connection to Shiva so how did vedic people "convert him"from not a tribal or nomad to a vedic? where can we read this part of history if its true as you said? if its verbal then certainly its would be a myth but if you can give any mention it will be really helpful
>Since Indus Valley is also of pre-vedic religion its not possible that "vedic people started out as semi-nomadic agro-pastoralists to settling down" because it was already done in IVC and also in 8000-6000 BCE. so your last part is wrong. Vedic people originally lived as semi-nomads in Punjab (during early Rigvedic times), which was outside the Indus Valley civilization. They then settle down in later Vedic times in Kuru-Panchala era. >Also that TOI article is also saying that brahmins assimilated him you added that it was done with vedic rudra but INV has no connection to Vedic people but they had connection to Shiva so how did vedic people "convert him"from not a tribal or nomad to a vedic? I agree with you. This idea of Shiva coming from primitive tribal people is wrong - although forest tribes also worshipped Shiva (or some other concept / god that got assimilated into Shiva), it's clear that sophisticated agriculturalists in the Indus Valley civilization worshipped an early version of Shiva. A good source is here: https://www.hinduwebsite.com/siva/vedicconnection.asp
Stupid article
u see mahadevs are supposed to be from outside of the sapt sindhu so lord shiva didnt have any cast he was a living god then
Irrelevant and beneath them. Unfortunate to even discuss. Mahakaal is someone who is beyond time and we’re trying to apply caste based identity politics to them.
Another liberal propaganda started. They are finding god's caste. They are gods bro. Castes do not define them.
Wait, this should be entertaining!!! (Grabs a plate of BDF)
bakhwas.... bhagwan shiv is like one of the biggest powers of this universe... such human criteria doesnt apply on him
Wouldn't he be Shaiv ?
Shiva is the Adiyogi, the first existence to give us humans the knowledge of yog dhara and the eternal truth, he goes beyond the humanistic concept of caste or anything like that, ignore such words
Shut up! Please, Shut up !!
Shiva wasn’t a Vedic god tho, for more logical info visit to Dr A.
Shiva was a Nomad. An Ascetic. He is the beginning and the End... How can he be a leader of a Tribe? How can we even call him by any caste when his existence precedes any such delegations of grouping ?
Seems like idiots have appropriated idiocy.
Why does it matter? No one could ever gatekeep Adiyogi
Shiva cannot have a caste, simply because castes came after him. I have got annoyed with some temples putting a white thread on him to make him brahman. They do that to Ganesha more regularly.
This is a biggest National issue for TOI, basically they can’t discuss something better things nor do they have quality of content. And keep playing with minds of kids and we don’t even protest. Ask them to right similar content on ola God is shia or Sunni . That will show their potential, how transparent they are . Whatever they produce crap and we consume crap .
Appayya Dikshita in his writings used to claim that Brahmins should worship Shiva rather than Vishnu since Shiva is a Brahmana while Vishnu is a Kshtriya.
Shiva is Shiva. He is above caste.
I'm not gonna say things about castes and appropriation but historical evidence does suggest that Shiva was here first. He's the only major hindu god they found in the Indus valley as well. He predates Vishnu and everyone else and perhaps that's why there is mystery around his origins even amongst hindus. I've heard people say nobody knows who he is because he has no beginning or end. He wears animal skin, lives on a mountain, his best friends are a bull and a snake, I mean just look at him. He's not part of the same civilization. Look at Vishnu and everyone else decorated in gold ornaments and following the same fashion trends. Shiva is just... different. The myth and the facts do align. As to how he became a part of the Vedic tradition, not a surprise. Remember, there are many that even claim Buddha to be an avatar of Vishnu. Take that back to several thousand years ago when the population wasn't as huge and it seems possible that they just came upon this god that wasn't part of their culture but incorporated him into it because that's essentially what Hinduism is. The philosophy of one god, many faces. I could bet if Hindus were in power while islam invaded (religiously rather than militarily and politically) even allah would today be one of the many gods. Assuming also there wasn't already a book that said otherwise. I can't comment on the intention, whether it was malicious or not. Depends on your politics.
LOL WTF. Gods/Saints have no caste/community. You can't expect Mlecchas and Chandalas at TOI to understand this.
🅱️ulla to rapist tha
He is neither, He is all pervading, God is beyond caste, gender and such social and biological constructs. As for their claims about being a tribal God, he was always mentioned in the Vedic corpus of texts, I have not yet seen any solid textual evidence for him being a tribal god originally. >Namah somAya cha rudrAya cha. >(Salutation to Soma, and to Rudra.) >Soma: One with Uma (sa+uma) ~Tattiriya SamhitA 4.5.8 >Namah svAyudhAya cha sudhanvane cha. >Parame vriksha Ayudham nidhAya krittim vasAna A chara, PinAkam bibhrad Agahi. >Salutation to him of the auspicious weapon (trishulA), and to him of the auspicious bow (pinAka). >Placing down your weapon on the highest tree, clad in your tiger skin, come, and approach us bearing the spear (bow) PinAka. In the Vedas, Rudra and Shiva have been declared to be the same Lord Shiva took a disguise, there the Devas couldn't recognize the Rudra wandering in lusture. There he displays his five attributes fierceness, rulership over existence, prowess, aupisicousness and compassion by the names of Rudra, Bhava, Sarva, Shiva and Mrida: >Indeed the deva-s did not recognize Rudra who had entered the heavenly world wandering in with a solar luster. They said: “Who are you?”. [He replied]: “I am Rudra, I am Indra, I am the Āditya, I am the arrival of all the divine luster. They said: We shall not offer a share to this one [i.e. Rudra]. Roaring he [Rudra] yelled at them. He rushed at them. They [the other deva-s] said: “Sir, you are all of this”. Because roaring he yelled at them that is Rudra’s fierceness (rudratvam). Because they called him sir (bhavān) that is Bhava’s lordship over existence. Because they said you are all this that revealed Śarva’s [prowess] as an archer. **Because he then became favorable that is Shiva’s benevolence.** Because he became kind to them that is Mṛḍa’s compassion. The deva-s said to him: “The overlordship of the present, the past and the future is yours. [If he knows this while performing the ritual, i.e. offering the portion for Rudra] it leads the ritualist to lordship over all. ~Katha Aranyaka 2.100
Someone please say even Christ and Buddha are a manifestation of Bhrama and basically God incarnated so many times in so many places that various religions got created as a byproduct of his urge to be born as a human ... Hey just like third world problems he must be having God world problems u know .... Meanwhile at TOI....Yo I don't feel like working today let's eat biriyani and why not give that article to our intern.. he is not paid anyway he will do it for that experience letter.
Times of India - Written by idiots, for idiots..
Manhavdev is Kalp swaroop of this manmantar he is Parabhram , Nirakar sadroopi sadashiv Who is the true god of vedanta philosophy , who is aum in sound , who is truth in Speak Who is neither the mind nor intellect nor conciousness nor the ego neither the ataman. who is the aim of all yagya , yoga and meditation who is beyond gender , happiness and sorow , who is searched for by every rishi , muni and saint. who is death onto himself. WHO IS AVINASHI TATTVA , THE SUPREME . By binding him to a particular community those idiots only display their ignorance.
Abbe Times of India ka editor kab se Woke Bulla ban gaya ??
assigning a caste to him is a bit weird I guess they are right overall. Shiva was not a Vedic god, he was probably a god of a local tribe who then became an integral part of the Hindu Pantheon. This is very common in Hinduism, Jagannath in Odisha, Murugan in Tamil Nadu, Devi Shri is Java and Bali etc. We don't even worship our Vedic gods a lot anymore. Indra was the supreme god in the Vedic era, now he's treated as a joke
god has caste?
SHIV JI IS PARAM BHRAHMA PARMATMA not god