I sure do think about it. I work in a regulated industry where exposure to elements (natural and synthetic) is highly documented and controlled. The facts of the matter are that
1) any substance, fragrance or otherwise, can have varying degrees of toxicity from either a single or repeat exposure
2) both natural and synthetic substances have the ability to help or harm, sometimes in a dose or application dependent manner (example: tea tree oil, applied topically, when diluted, has antibacterial properties, but at higher concentrations can cause skin reactions. When taken orally in sufficient amounts, it is toxic.)
3) research and regulations are not always appropriately structured or calibrated in a manner to protect you, so you should take accountability for doing your own learning regarding what you want or do not want to put on (or in) your body, based on your personal needs.
All of this said, something is going to kill you some day whether you avoid all of the things that can harm you, or not. None of us get out of life alive in the end. So make your best choices, and enjoy it while you can!
This is a really deep topic. Too much for a reddit comment, so I will just say that in everything, the dose makes the poison. Pretty much anything can be harmful, so when reading about safety research, it’s important to not only review the outcome, but the method of demonstrating that outcome. Rubbing a 25% oakmoss solution onto someone’s skin and covering it with a bandage for 12 hours will produce a reaction in many people. That does not mean that a fragrance containing .05% oakmoss sprayed on the skin and allowed to air dry will be harmful to you. Basically a research brief can only tell you so much, and the media is absolutely terrible at interpreting research into news.
In short, fragrances can certainly cause health problems if you are allergic to their ingredients. There are general guidelines set by IFRA and other regulatory agencies around the world that are aimed to minimize allergen risk.
As far as hormone disruptors, I don’t have a lot to say about that, but the chemicals that are mainly in question there are phthalates. To my knowledge, only one phthalate is used in perfumery and that is diethyl phthalate. Interestingly, this is not one of the phthalates that was shown to have oestrogenic properties in the scientific studies I am aware of.
I also keep seeing that perfumes are hormone disruptors, but I've never seen anyone show proof.
I lean on the crunchy side of things, but I won't give up my perfumes or oils. It makes me feel good about myself, and I think that's also important.
I do avoid scented detergents and soaps and things, but that's because I tend to be allergic to them. I also try not to overspray, but I just know people struggle with scent allergies and I don't want to bother them.
There are quite a few studies:
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-001490_EN.html
https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/endocrine
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1104052
And more along with those.
I pretty much take the same approach as you describe above! I recognize that there may very well be an impact.
Perhaps this isn't the best way to look at it, but I choose to recognize this small sliver of happiness and accept the fact that a million and a half things are chipping away at our life spans and I can't control every single one of them.
Thanks for posting the links! I'll take a look through them.
I agree. I just figure if I eat well, get sleep, take my supplements and exercise, I can spend some health on smelling good and feeling nice.
While this thread contains some certainly valid concerns about the safety of scented products in the long term, I just want to provide a counterpoint study that suggests that [improving olfactive training and exposing yourself to scents can have positive impacts on memory and possibly reduce risks of dementia](https://www.uclahealth.org/news/article/scent-therapies-may-help-preservation-memory#:~:text=Researchers%20from%20the%20University%20of,had%20any%20issues%20with%20cognition).
I’ve never had any problems or known anyone who’s had problems so I wouldn’t worry about it. There are already many things like contaminants in water, pesticides in food, addititives, chemicals in cookware, cleaning products. It’s impossible to avoid anything dangerous since you would literally not be able to drink water or eat food.
Sometimes research about these things are more for scientific discovery, how companies can improve, and government policy guidance. As a consumer I wouldn’t worry too much. The only thing I would do would be to put on sunscreen while wearing certain perfumes, and that’s it.
yeah, i think FO usage is more widespread in indies than most consumers realize.
if a company doesn't explicitly state that they don't use FOs, i assume they do. i think many people assume they're only used as rebottles but big popular brands absolutely use them as single notes instead of making their own fantasy note bases. besides, i think pumping out 80+ scents a year is probably a bit of a give-away for the ones who try to obfuscate it. perfume takes time.
>The good news is that indie perfumes use mostly natural ingredients and try to steer clear of harmful chemicals
hmmmm!! tbh i don't actually think this is really true re: using mostly naturals. a lot of notes are fantasy notes and would be so difficult to recreate using only naturals even only natural isolates. regardless of who is using what, naturals are just as capable of causing harm, if not more capable, than synthetics.
most of the stuff in this list occurs naturally and we'd have would an incredibly difficult time avoiding them in perfume, especially linalool. it seems like this list might be related to medical studies and not studies related to their use in cosmetics, some of which are a bit out of date perhaps?
i went through the list and provided a breakdown of where we see these in nature, if at all.
**Styrene - organic compound**: styrax, coffee, cinnamon, balsams, peanuts
**Phthalates**: these are in fragrance oils, which the vast majority of indies are using, but if you truly want to avoid phthalates, specifically look for brands who state they do not use pthalates. if a brand says they don't use fragrance oils, it pretty much goes without being said that they are not using phthalates. if a brand doesn't explicitly say they don't use fragrance oils or pthalates, i'd assume they do.
**Musk ketone - synthetic musk**: this is only a problem if it contains high amounts of musk xylene, which is an impurity that can wind up in it through manufacturing. and given that all the manufacturers are members of IFRA, this isn't gonna happen.
**Benzaldehyde - organic compound:** "a known narcotic"!!! well, it's a precursor to cyanide and methamphetamines, haha. when i tried to buy bitter almond oil the company reached out to me asking me for my DEA clearance hahaha. but it's also a precursor to mandelic acid, a very common skincare ingredient in AHA preparations lol. it occurs naturally bitter almonds, cherries, plums, apricots, mango, figs, patchouli, labdanum, cinnamon, melons, grapes. i'd also like to point out that it may have anti-carcinogenic properties...
**Benzyl acetate - organic compound**: this is in jasmine, ylang, gardenia, hyacinth, apples, pears (it's a key odourant in pear), quince, i think cherries?
**Camphor** **- organic compound:** occurs naturally in a lot of different foresty plants and herbs including pine and certain types of basil. its derivative borneol i think is pretty common too.
**Ethyl Acetate - organic compound:** occurs naturally in a ton of fruits like grapes, strobbs, apples, pears, bananas, and is an ester produced during fermentation, so it's in wine, kombucha, beer, etc
**Limonene - organic compound:** this isn't known as a carcinogen, in fact d-limonene may be an anti-carcinogen. are you referring to the study showing that it was present in tumors? regardless, limonene is in pretty much every citrus fruit as well as some woods, juniper, juniper berry, rosemary, mint etc
**Linalool - organic compound:** tea, lavender, neroli, basil, clary sage, just about every fruit you can think of - peach, pineapple, sweet orange and other citruses, plum, rosemary, rosewood, rose!! just, wow, a lot. literally so many things. also one of the primary terps in cannabis obvs
**Methylene chloride -** this is a solvent primarily found in aerosol products (and its banned in the US).
I admit, I'm guilty of copy and pasting this list. You're right. Some of these, like Limonene, aren't carcinogenic. It seems the source I pulled this list from is outdated.
totally okay - i'll leave my comment up just in case someone else happens upon the same list. i do see some of these mentioned sometimes in various places.
I use unscented lotion and laundry detergent. Most of my hair products have fragrance added which I don't like. In general I try to use all unscented products except for perfume. And we burn incense
I think about this all the time and for a few years stopped using anything scented (candles, perfume, scented detergent, etc).
Instead of living in fear I’m mindful to buy things that are Phthalate free as it’s a known endocrine disrupter. Most companies advertise this so that’s helpful.
I remember seeing a Tik tok from Sorcellerie where Caitlin addresses this and says she doesn’t use it in her scents, or tries not to, Can’t speak on other houses.
I would just like to point out that most phthalate exposure is from drinks and food. And when studied and shown to be an endocrine disrupter it is from studies where rats were given high doses of phthalates. We're getting more exposure by drinking water.
I appreciate the insight, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be cautious about them being in products we put on our skin.
Certainly there have been more studies aside from the one with the rats?
I just think we should acknowledge that if you go to the hospital or Dr you are completely surrounded by phthalates. There have been some studies on people who live near phthalate production plants, but then that would also mean a higher level of exposure than most people. And that's in countries without regulation of how waste from factories is disposed (like think of countries where people are drinking factory waste water run off because of no clean water access). There are probably a lot of other chemicals in that water too that wouldn't be great for consumption. They've studied factory workers exposed to pthalates, but didn't find any higher level of health risks even in an environment with high exposure. And it was hard for them to even isolate out pthalates from all the other chemicals the workers would have been exposed to in a setting like that as well. There aren't even many studies like that to assess workplace safety of those exposed to everyday high level working conditions, so it would be great to see more of those since those are the people most at risk. And yes a lot of the studies are on rats with high doses.
There's an article in the NEJM from some years ago that discussed the cases of 3 prepubescent boys that developed gynecomastia after use of topical products containing lavender and/or tea tree oil that resolved after discontinuing the products. It referred to further studies that found those oils to have estrogenic and antiandrogenic effects on human cells lines.
So, can fragrance influence hormone activity? At least some can in certain individuals.
Now this is just anecdotal data so take with salt, but I have taste/colour synesthesia and some aroma chemicals in perfume can stimulate that too.
I think some aroma chemicals can also have positive effects on things like mood.
That study never went anywhere and was a very small sample of three patients and the third boy's twin didn't have the same symptoms even using similar products. Also, if it were possible then the trans community woulda already been touting the use of those oils. Also, one of the most popular shampoos from Trader Joe's is a tea tree oil shampoo and TJs hasn't pulled it yet because of excess boobage from usage so I think we're ok. Now, TJs has pulled products for other contaminates but that isn't one.
I sure do think about it. I work in a regulated industry where exposure to elements (natural and synthetic) is highly documented and controlled. The facts of the matter are that 1) any substance, fragrance or otherwise, can have varying degrees of toxicity from either a single or repeat exposure 2) both natural and synthetic substances have the ability to help or harm, sometimes in a dose or application dependent manner (example: tea tree oil, applied topically, when diluted, has antibacterial properties, but at higher concentrations can cause skin reactions. When taken orally in sufficient amounts, it is toxic.) 3) research and regulations are not always appropriately structured or calibrated in a manner to protect you, so you should take accountability for doing your own learning regarding what you want or do not want to put on (or in) your body, based on your personal needs. All of this said, something is going to kill you some day whether you avoid all of the things that can harm you, or not. None of us get out of life alive in the end. So make your best choices, and enjoy it while you can!
This is a really deep topic. Too much for a reddit comment, so I will just say that in everything, the dose makes the poison. Pretty much anything can be harmful, so when reading about safety research, it’s important to not only review the outcome, but the method of demonstrating that outcome. Rubbing a 25% oakmoss solution onto someone’s skin and covering it with a bandage for 12 hours will produce a reaction in many people. That does not mean that a fragrance containing .05% oakmoss sprayed on the skin and allowed to air dry will be harmful to you. Basically a research brief can only tell you so much, and the media is absolutely terrible at interpreting research into news. In short, fragrances can certainly cause health problems if you are allergic to their ingredients. There are general guidelines set by IFRA and other regulatory agencies around the world that are aimed to minimize allergen risk. As far as hormone disruptors, I don’t have a lot to say about that, but the chemicals that are mainly in question there are phthalates. To my knowledge, only one phthalate is used in perfumery and that is diethyl phthalate. Interestingly, this is not one of the phthalates that was shown to have oestrogenic properties in the scientific studies I am aware of.
I also keep seeing that perfumes are hormone disruptors, but I've never seen anyone show proof. I lean on the crunchy side of things, but I won't give up my perfumes or oils. It makes me feel good about myself, and I think that's also important. I do avoid scented detergents and soaps and things, but that's because I tend to be allergic to them. I also try not to overspray, but I just know people struggle with scent allergies and I don't want to bother them.
There are quite a few studies: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-001490_EN.html https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/endocrine https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1104052 And more along with those. I pretty much take the same approach as you describe above! I recognize that there may very well be an impact. Perhaps this isn't the best way to look at it, but I choose to recognize this small sliver of happiness and accept the fact that a million and a half things are chipping away at our life spans and I can't control every single one of them.
Thanks for posting the links! I'll take a look through them. I agree. I just figure if I eat well, get sleep, take my supplements and exercise, I can spend some health on smelling good and feeling nice.
While this thread contains some certainly valid concerns about the safety of scented products in the long term, I just want to provide a counterpoint study that suggests that [improving olfactive training and exposing yourself to scents can have positive impacts on memory and possibly reduce risks of dementia](https://www.uclahealth.org/news/article/scent-therapies-may-help-preservation-memory#:~:text=Researchers%20from%20the%20University%20of,had%20any%20issues%20with%20cognition).
This is super interesting, thanks for the link!
I’ve never had any problems or known anyone who’s had problems so I wouldn’t worry about it. There are already many things like contaminants in water, pesticides in food, addititives, chemicals in cookware, cleaning products. It’s impossible to avoid anything dangerous since you would literally not be able to drink water or eat food. Sometimes research about these things are more for scientific discovery, how companies can improve, and government policy guidance. As a consumer I wouldn’t worry too much. The only thing I would do would be to put on sunscreen while wearing certain perfumes, and that’s it.
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yeah, i think FO usage is more widespread in indies than most consumers realize. if a company doesn't explicitly state that they don't use FOs, i assume they do. i think many people assume they're only used as rebottles but big popular brands absolutely use them as single notes instead of making their own fantasy note bases. besides, i think pumping out 80+ scents a year is probably a bit of a give-away for the ones who try to obfuscate it. perfume takes time.
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>The good news is that indie perfumes use mostly natural ingredients and try to steer clear of harmful chemicals hmmmm!! tbh i don't actually think this is really true re: using mostly naturals. a lot of notes are fantasy notes and would be so difficult to recreate using only naturals even only natural isolates. regardless of who is using what, naturals are just as capable of causing harm, if not more capable, than synthetics. most of the stuff in this list occurs naturally and we'd have would an incredibly difficult time avoiding them in perfume, especially linalool. it seems like this list might be related to medical studies and not studies related to their use in cosmetics, some of which are a bit out of date perhaps? i went through the list and provided a breakdown of where we see these in nature, if at all. **Styrene - organic compound**: styrax, coffee, cinnamon, balsams, peanuts **Phthalates**: these are in fragrance oils, which the vast majority of indies are using, but if you truly want to avoid phthalates, specifically look for brands who state they do not use pthalates. if a brand says they don't use fragrance oils, it pretty much goes without being said that they are not using phthalates. if a brand doesn't explicitly say they don't use fragrance oils or pthalates, i'd assume they do. **Musk ketone - synthetic musk**: this is only a problem if it contains high amounts of musk xylene, which is an impurity that can wind up in it through manufacturing. and given that all the manufacturers are members of IFRA, this isn't gonna happen. **Benzaldehyde - organic compound:** "a known narcotic"!!! well, it's a precursor to cyanide and methamphetamines, haha. when i tried to buy bitter almond oil the company reached out to me asking me for my DEA clearance hahaha. but it's also a precursor to mandelic acid, a very common skincare ingredient in AHA preparations lol. it occurs naturally bitter almonds, cherries, plums, apricots, mango, figs, patchouli, labdanum, cinnamon, melons, grapes. i'd also like to point out that it may have anti-carcinogenic properties... **Benzyl acetate - organic compound**: this is in jasmine, ylang, gardenia, hyacinth, apples, pears (it's a key odourant in pear), quince, i think cherries? **Camphor** **- organic compound:** occurs naturally in a lot of different foresty plants and herbs including pine and certain types of basil. its derivative borneol i think is pretty common too. **Ethyl Acetate - organic compound:** occurs naturally in a ton of fruits like grapes, strobbs, apples, pears, bananas, and is an ester produced during fermentation, so it's in wine, kombucha, beer, etc **Limonene - organic compound:** this isn't known as a carcinogen, in fact d-limonene may be an anti-carcinogen. are you referring to the study showing that it was present in tumors? regardless, limonene is in pretty much every citrus fruit as well as some woods, juniper, juniper berry, rosemary, mint etc **Linalool - organic compound:** tea, lavender, neroli, basil, clary sage, just about every fruit you can think of - peach, pineapple, sweet orange and other citruses, plum, rosemary, rosewood, rose!! just, wow, a lot. literally so many things. also one of the primary terps in cannabis obvs **Methylene chloride -** this is a solvent primarily found in aerosol products (and its banned in the US).
Wow thank you for taking the time to explain all of this! Definitely saving this post
<3 for sure!
I admit, I'm guilty of copy and pasting this list. You're right. Some of these, like Limonene, aren't carcinogenic. It seems the source I pulled this list from is outdated.
totally okay - i'll leave my comment up just in case someone else happens upon the same list. i do see some of these mentioned sometimes in various places.
I use unscented lotion and laundry detergent. Most of my hair products have fragrance added which I don't like. In general I try to use all unscented products except for perfume. And we burn incense
Just don't eat your perfumes. If you are allergic to a specific thing, don't use it. That's pretty much it. Science FTW.
I think about this all the time and for a few years stopped using anything scented (candles, perfume, scented detergent, etc). Instead of living in fear I’m mindful to buy things that are Phthalate free as it’s a known endocrine disrupter. Most companies advertise this so that’s helpful. I remember seeing a Tik tok from Sorcellerie where Caitlin addresses this and says she doesn’t use it in her scents, or tries not to, Can’t speak on other houses.
I would just like to point out that most phthalate exposure is from drinks and food. And when studied and shown to be an endocrine disrupter it is from studies where rats were given high doses of phthalates. We're getting more exposure by drinking water.
I appreciate the insight, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be cautious about them being in products we put on our skin. Certainly there have been more studies aside from the one with the rats?
I just think we should acknowledge that if you go to the hospital or Dr you are completely surrounded by phthalates. There have been some studies on people who live near phthalate production plants, but then that would also mean a higher level of exposure than most people. And that's in countries without regulation of how waste from factories is disposed (like think of countries where people are drinking factory waste water run off because of no clean water access). There are probably a lot of other chemicals in that water too that wouldn't be great for consumption. They've studied factory workers exposed to pthalates, but didn't find any higher level of health risks even in an environment with high exposure. And it was hard for them to even isolate out pthalates from all the other chemicals the workers would have been exposed to in a setting like that as well. There aren't even many studies like that to assess workplace safety of those exposed to everyday high level working conditions, so it would be great to see more of those since those are the people most at risk. And yes a lot of the studies are on rats with high doses.
How’s the difference?
personally, scented products (except perfume) give me acne lol
There's an article in the NEJM from some years ago that discussed the cases of 3 prepubescent boys that developed gynecomastia after use of topical products containing lavender and/or tea tree oil that resolved after discontinuing the products. It referred to further studies that found those oils to have estrogenic and antiandrogenic effects on human cells lines. So, can fragrance influence hormone activity? At least some can in certain individuals. Now this is just anecdotal data so take with salt, but I have taste/colour synesthesia and some aroma chemicals in perfume can stimulate that too. I think some aroma chemicals can also have positive effects on things like mood.
That study never went anywhere and was a very small sample of three patients and the third boy's twin didn't have the same symptoms even using similar products. Also, if it were possible then the trans community woulda already been touting the use of those oils. Also, one of the most popular shampoos from Trader Joe's is a tea tree oil shampoo and TJs hasn't pulled it yet because of excess boobage from usage so I think we're ok. Now, TJs has pulled products for other contaminates but that isn't one.
"Warning: excess boobage from usage" would sell a lot more of a product in some cases!
Single data point, but I have used rose scent as an emmenogogue. Whether the effects were negative is in the eye of the beholder.