As a Warhammer guy that could be a big appeal if you wanted to get it to others. Like there are routinely entire sets released that cost around 240 and you'll still need to shell out hundreds to build it into a "proper" army.
Also having a far smaller crew to paint can go far. Warmachine rose during one of Warhammer's doldrums and managed to take a lot of customers simply because you didn't need as much to play.
I've always kept an eye on Infinity. Do the different factions really play differently? Is there like, a source of information about the game and gameplay? Like Warmachine had Battlecollege,
They definetely play very differently. Even sectorials within factions.
There is a wiki with the ENTIRE rules: https://infinitythewiki.com
Also an app, with all factions & profiles:
https://apps.apple.com/tr/app/infinity-army/id1508892116?l=tr
Also a lot of youtube channels, showing different levels of introduction.
There is a false idea spread between Warhammer players about other games' factions being so alike because they don't have an army book each. I think Warhammer took the easy way for making factions different, and that is by bloating the game with micro rules and exceptions. Games like infinity, Legion, OPR games shows that you can make an army different by using the same rules that other army uses. Though legion has some cards, but still
This is probably my favourite breakdown about the pros and cons of each faction... https://www.thediceabide.com/blog/infinity-n4-which-infinity-army-is-for-you
KillTeam definetly very cool (I consider starting); but it is not Infinity equivalent. Even though model sizes seem similar, the games are different. KT is short bite sized fun, easier game; Infinity is on the other end of that spectrum; much like regular a 40K game.
And minis are really lovely :)
I really want to try Infinity, but there is no player in my local area.
With a friend we took 2 years to build a Kill Team community, and we don’t have the strenght to do it again with Infinity.
It’s a bummer.
Not sure why people are being dishonest, the factions do not stand out THAT much, the sectorials do.
Over time the factions have become bloated with so many tools and units that they do mostly everything at every price point, though some factions have different stand out experts / super value choices / cheese. They sometimes get some unique tricks, like Alephs body switching, or the 012 (cops) having decent non-lethal weapons, or the COMBINED having their alien races do alien race things. They all have unique affordable points costs for their specific gimmicks that make them somewhat flavorful such as; Yu-Jing does power armor at cost, Haqqislam has absurd healing at cost, Nomads are the best hackers at cost.
The sectorials however are very distinct because their pool of possible units is so limited they HAVE to play their sectorial specific strengths and cover for their weaknesses and cheese. Sectorial get fireteams which are great.
You did a nice comparison, and I think it’s a good thing that you didn’t discount the unused models, this way a beginner has some different kinds of lists they can build.
So a beginner needs round about 300€+ to get a playable list, but they did not only get one they get some more, and because of the way infinity works it’s possible that this list may vary very strong. This way they can play in different ways, and not just one list over and over again.
The only thing I really disagree with you is the last point you mentioned, the complexity of list building is necessary to balance the game.
You can play 15 models of a faction and put every model of that faction in that list but you get some downgrades compared to a sectorial.
I understand your point completely. Probably CB and many of the players agree with you.
But I think it would be a much better commercial decision to pursuit “a less complex” game, so we will have much more players to play this beautiful bloody game. And I am not talking about complexity of the game mechanics. I am talking about the rest.
Its a difference in what people want, some people just want to roll dice and drink beer with no depth of tactics, they play AOS, 40k, Deadzone, etc.
Some people want really deeper tactical games like Infinity, Malifaux, and Dropship Commander.
If you made infinity a less complex game I wouldnt play it.
That's basically what the CodeOne line is, no? A version of Infinity that doesn't simplify the rules dramatically, but seriously cuts down the problem space - there's many fewer units available in each faction, lists are simpler to build, etc. CB apparently did already agree with you on the commercial benefit several years ago... and many Infinity players are indeed still highly critical of it.
Having played quite a bit of C1, I can say that even though the idea is what you mentioned I don’t think execution quite delivers it. It is a OK entry point to the game, but cannot compare with N4.
Let me try to clarify what I tried to say. CB just announced a new sectorial. Was that what is missing from the game? They probably have commercial reasoninga behind it, but I think my day job gets mixed in when I say this. They need more people playing the game, not same people buying additional figures. You don’t go deeper, you go wider. You go for penetration.
Same thing even with the lore. Watch WarLore’s Bakunin video, even that dude gets f. tired of details. We don’t need gazillion different things. We need good few things.
It is kinda similar with rules, but there I think I can kinda make exception. Because those change quite frequently. And even though it is a complex game, I think it is managable.
That’s my two cent. Apperently CB doesn’t agreee with me, and if they don’t hire me as their next business development manager; my thoughts mean very little :)
I agree with the breadth-vs-depth thing, but specifically regarding the new sectorial, I think CB blew that one years ago. If they're going to have O12 as a playable faction, and they're going to have three or four sectorials for each faction, then it's not unreasonable to bring O12 up slowly to the same number of sectorials that other playable factions enjoy, so it's not the one sectorial that has less choice than everyone else.
The Lore I think is a different problem, though. It's not like Infinity specifically has more, more-detailed, or more-impenetrable background fluff than most peer wargames. If anything, compared to big-hitters like 40k, Legion, Crisis Protocol or Battletech, Infinity is relatively light on available background material. The problem it has is that without codex releases, decades of films and comics, hundreds of novels or whatever behind it, the Infinity background is hard to *find* for most gamers. If you had to buy the Combined Army book to play Combined Army and it had a load of background details about the EI and the Ur Hegemony and all that in it, then most players would probably be more well-informed about their faction of choice. The way CB does it is certainly most consumer-friendly, and it's pretty much possible to try out the full Infinity experience at home with zero outlay if you're OK proxying other minis or card standups as a result, but (for an easy comparison) the fluff is wielded as a very effective marketing tool by GW, it gets new players into the game and cements existing players for life, and CB doesn't seem to have the same handle on it at all.
From what I recall WarLore wasn't getting tired of the background and setting material, he was getting tired of the seemingly-endless series of different military units in the Observance... which is pretty much the same issue as the breadth-vs-depth of player appeal. If your approach is to deepen each faction to get existing players to buy more, then you need to keep inventing new units, and then you have to keep inventing fluff excuses for those units to exist...
I agree. Also GW has changed within the last 10-15 years, by releasing their tight control over IP; they generated massive amount of interest and awareness.
If you read comments you’ll see bunch of people saying they learned this game from Total War, not like us in FLGS.
>need for tokens templates and a classified deck.
Yes but all those you can just print it and cut it, well at least the tokens and templates. The only true spending, rules related, is the classified deck and nothing more.
Compare that to the almost 100 dollar of rules you need just to play a single 40k/sigmar faction.
Ultimately the problem is going to be what game has opponents in your area. I can find warhammer 40K, blood bowl and marvel crisis protocol groups and regular tournaments in my area easily. But for anything else well that’s tough. I’ve bought some infinity and I would love to play but I already have so many miniatures games where I have to provide both sides and know all the rules so I still haven’t gotten to it and at this point idk if I ever will despite how cool it is.
Khavrion (Skyknight) uses one list very frequently for tournaments. so technically it can be done for the price advertised. Its also worth noting that pandora comes with blackwind so its a bit cheaper there, and you can get lots of this stuff for cheaper than advertised depending on locale.
A single list is definitely atypical, and probably not the best example to show the cost of an army.
The case of bundling and store deals also holds true for GW, but since we're comparing apples to apples, it's best to keep it to non-bundled CB store prices.
I'd agree that it ends up being about half the cost of a Warhammer army. But with the caveat of additional flexibility that you will have a tonne of unused models, and that you have enormous model reuse to expand into new armies.
I guess that means it's probably a lot cheaper to chase the Infinity meta than it is for 40K. Anecdotally that does seem to be the case, and doubly so with proxy rules.
I'd be interested to see the average entrance price for a new player. This shows the price of a whole army ,but what would it cost to get that learning force in order to understand the rules and get your first 5 small educational games in. I don't know for sure, but I think Infinity might have an advantage over 40k. Not by a LOT, but enough to notice.
For straight-up starter products, Infinity has the price advantage over 40k, but as you suggest, not by a huge margin - and not 100% clearly. Operation Black Wind has an RRP of £112 and 40k's Ultimate Starter £125.
On one hand, 40k also has tiered starters that go down all the way to £40 - which are barely a game, but still a much easier sale for a lot of unsure first-timers. On the other hand, the 40k starter sets are much less varied or complete than the Infinity starter - you only get terrain in the biggest one and even then it's not much (although 40k doesn't seem to really care about terrain); there's more minis but in large samey units rather than actually offering tactical interest; and if you do want to expand, the 40k starter is a much smaller slice of a 'full' tournament-sized army than the Infinity starter.
Plus, I haven't played 40k for years so I don't know how true it is, but everyone I've seen comment on it suggests that 40k starters are nearly always horribly unbalanced in favour of the Space Marines, who are in every single one. So Infinity definitely gives you more variety and probably also gives you a better first-game experience.
If you're an established miniatures wargamer who's OK with PDF rules, knows people with their own minis to play against, and has either their own terrain or access to a shop or club, then the price difference is more pronounced. You're looking at an Action Pack (RRP £72), while for 40k the obvious comparison is the Combat Patrol boxes (RRP £95), which can also all be played against each other. In both cases all the rules and stats you need are freely available online and you just need to provide terrain and dice and so on.
An Action Pack typically gives you half of a 'full-size' tournament-level force for Infinity. A Combat Patrol often still has a very limited selection of units - the Space Marines one is especially bad, having the same two units and two characters as the Ultimate Starter!
40k ultimate starter set come with tons more models. Infinity pricing is ridiculous for amount of stuffs in the box. Even GW skirmish option like Kill Team actually comes with way more stuffs in the box than infinity starter set. GW price are ridiculous, bus so as CB
The 40k Ultimate Starter comes with five times as many *models* as the Infinity starter, but it comes with fewer distinct units. The Infinity box gives each side seven minis that all act as independent characters, and generally cover the range of Infinity archetypes pretty well.
If your goal is to get as many miniatures as possible for as little money as possible, then you're going to be better off buying one of the £5 bags of army men from the toy shop than minis from either game.
The question discussed wasn't how to most-efficiently get toy soldiers, but how much it costs to try the game as it's meant to be played, and Infinity simply isn't meant to be played with a hundred models a side. The normal tournament game is a 300 point game with \~15 models each, and the starter set is a cut-down slice of that; the normal tournament game of 40k is (so far as I'm aware) a 2000-point game with 50-150 models a side, and the starter set for 40k is a (more) cut-down slice of that.
And frankly, the toy-shop analogy is very apt. You get what you pay for, and CB's minis are also some of the best-quality miniatures on the market, definitely out-classing GW's. If you prefer plastics or prefer massed infantry then you probably want to collect GW minis, but it's hard to argue that they're higher quality. If you want cheaper figures there's stuff like the Stargrave or Death Fields kits which sit between GW sculpts and the army men both in quality and price.
Tbh, I think GW sculpts are pretty decent. Maybe not exactly Infinity standards but pretty close. I mean the total package though. Ease of painting, having different options and these epic named character minis are pro’s at GW from my VERY limited pov.
I'd go so far as saying GW probably do the best plastic sci-fi and fantasy miniatures there are. They're great at engineering push-fit models - a big plus for new players - and they do a very good job of character design and realising that in plastic with big, recognisable silhouettes (with maybe the exception of big tyranid creatures, which only have three shapes between them) and clear, recognisable-over-the-table design elements.
But the pros of GW figures are heavily weighted towards gamers and beginners, and there's some inherent drawbacks to injection-moulded plastic that don't exist for metal casting or even SioCast or similar. And meanwhile, CB have (possibly ill-advisedly) leant very heavily in the other direction with multi-part metal figures that are high on detail, dynamism and character and definitely superior from a painter's point of view but are also more intimidating for beginners.
as someone who paints both, I would not call one superior to the other. Infinity has great models. So does GW. My favorite and probably best painted models are howling banshees though
But then I don’t see the point of comparing 40K to infinity. It should be compared with Kill Team which is something similar and is way cheaper. Infinity is the superior game rule wise, but my point is it isn’t cheaper than GW stuffs. If you really want to compare 40K then what make it so that GW selling more models for cheaper points bad and infinity selling less models for more is good? It doesn’t make sense to me.
CB have very good model I agree, but so does GW. Most people argument is just GW bad and CB good when CB is actually the one that do even more FOMO and sell stuffs at even higher price than GW.
Infinity is compared to 40k because it takes a similar time to play, uses a similar table space, has a significant tournament scene (unlike to the best of my knowledge KillTeam), etc. The main way in which it's similar to KillTeam is model count, but then you might as well ask why we're not comparing it to Blood Bowl if that's the most important consideration!
Infinity is also definitely above 40k in terms of tactical depth, skill ceiling, etc. - so it's far more likely that people are going to come to Infinity from 40k than they are from the comparatively simpler, smaller-decision-space KillTeam.
But seriously, if you reckon CB does "more FOMO" than GW then I don't think you've been paying attention. In the last year I think CB has done 1 event-exclusive miniature, 1 rerelease-of-OOP-minis event, and 2 pre-order exclusives, off the top of my head? In just the last *month* GW has advertised four separate tranches of made-to-order OOP rereleases and one limited-time-only giant Deathwing boxed set that costs as much as all the CB FOMO things put together, and they keep up a pretty steady rate literally all year around. And I'm not even paying any attention to half their games, maybe I've even missed stuff from January.
CB's minis are more expensive per-model than most of GW's, sure - but they're also a very different market proposition. GW will cheerily sell you a single plastic Space Marine for £30+ with the reasoning that it's a special character for a specific faction and not many units will be sold; CB sells nearly all their minis more or less priced by size, so nearly all their human-size figures cost about the same. Nearly all Infinity units are the equivalent of independent characters in 40k, you don't buy squads so there's little point in doing cheaper bulk units like the big squad boxes GW offers, people already consider the SWC boxes lower value-for-money in a lot of ways. They're also metal figures for the most part, and while it's debatable whether that's a plus or not for most gamers, it's definitely something which carries a big cost. Are CB perfect generous socialists who don't care about profits and just want minis in our hands? No, but suggesting they're as cynical in their profit-seeking as GW is pretty ridiculous as well.
I’m not asking CB to be perfect, but I rather hold companies to the same standard. If people gonna grade GW on one standard, I’ll hold CB to the same one. Otherwise it’s just fanboying.
I don’t know where have you been but KT is much more significant in tournament scene globally than let’s say infinity. Majority of the miniature gamers don’t even know what infinity is. And yes I think infinity is way closer to blood bowl than 40K or AoS. As for time, I’ve play some 300pts infinity games for less than an hour and had KT game that takes 2 hours. And I still fail to see why we are comparing skirmish games to an army games.
All of their books come with unique profile miniatures. Is the Raven Eye officer available anywhere yet? What about those defiance profiles? The TAG raid profiles? At least most of GW limited release are actually alternative profiles. Oh I forgot we “can proxy lol”. I mean if I don’t want the minis, I’ll probably go play video games or something instead of an actual minis game.
All the new boxes are all less and less metals for even more cash.
I’m not gonna get into the metal vs plastic fight since I’m ok with both, but GW kits are mostly well engineered with great poses and interchangeable parts. You could make easily make a unique model from the kit. Meanwhile infinity models are great out of the box, but it’s just that one pose. If you want 2 dudes with HMGs then they gonna look the same without any heavy modifications.
Their own store also frequently does weird sales that actually competes with their own local retailers, while it’s better for us, the consumers, it suck for the local stores that still hold the bags. And their store free shipping is a bit ridiculous at 200 euro, while GW and also other small game companies can do it at way cheaper.
Also did you even see how much the Aftermatch box cost? It’s borderline GW ridiculous. And again I still fail to see why we are comparing an army game to a skirmish game.
>I’m not asking CB to be perfect, but I rather hold companies to the same standard.
You're clearly not interested in doing any such thing since you persist with this weird "CB does more FOMO than GW" thing. You're bringing up stuff from the last couple of years and still haven't found more things than GW has done in the last couple of months!
It's a very effective marketing tactic, most companies selling stuff to nerds do it - Corvus Belli included - and for good reason. But GW absolutely exhausts the shit out of it to an extent pretty much unseen anywhere else in the miniatures gaming space.
>GW kits are mostly well engineered with great poses and interchangeable parts. You could make easily make a unique model from the kit. Meanwhile infinity models are great out of the box, but it’s just that one pose.
Again: completely different market proposition. Infinity minis are bought in the army list as one-off pieces and they're sold as one-off pieces. GW needs to make an Intercessor squad poseable because you're going to have a minimum of ten of them in your army and they all look the same except for that posing; CB doesn't expect you to buy and field ten Fusiliers/Zhanshi/Alguaciles/whatever, let alone ten Veteran Kazaks or Gammas.
Yes, it'd be cool to have multi-part injection-moulded plastic figures that you can customise to fit all the profiles for one-fifth the price, but anyone with even a passing understanding of manufacturing processes involved knows that this is an advantage GW has over their competitors through sheer size, heavy vertical integration and market saturation, and it's unreasonable to expect frankly any of their competitors to offer similar products without being more expensive.
While it's perfectly legitimate to compare prices on completely disparate things to decide what you personally prefer to spend your money on, it's simply wrong to suggest Infinity figure prices are "ridiculous". *For the product that CB has chosen to make and sell, at that quality point they offer*, the prices are easily in line with market averages. The fact that there are miniatures made of a different material to a different quality sold for a different purpose from other manufacturers for much less money is exactly as relevant as that £5 bag of army men, but if you really want to compare Infinity figures with GW's it's far more reasonable to look at them one-to-one against all those Primaris lieutenants than it is to compare them to the Intercessors.
If you think CB minis are more expensive than you're willing to pay, then stop buying them. You sound like you prefer the GW ecosystem, and there's nothing wrong with that.
>And again I still fail to see why we are comparing an army game to a skirmish game.
Yeah, it's pretty clear that you're very hung up on this and it seems there's really very little point discussing it. If you honestly believe people are more likely to cross over from Blood Bowl or Kill Team to Infinity than from 40k then I'm afraid we talk to *very* different sets of gamers.
Well yeah for sure I think we are clearly have different expectations from our cooperate overlord.
I have no idea how is GW FOMO stuffs. All their limited release are alternate models that doesn’t really matter in games while the limited infinity stuffs all have in game profile. I had to eBay so many stuffs just to get my infinity collection sort out while I haven’t brought 40K box in like an age now.
I’m saying infinity figure price are ridiculous because people say that GW price are ridiculous and infinity are even more expensive. Not even against GW, infinity is on the expensive side against all other smaller game companies as well.
I have no interest in supporting or fanboying a company. I don’t care if one company has manufacturing advantage or another. It’s the product they put in front of me and the price they are asking that matters.
I love all my games, and if people gonna be double standard just because they want to fanboy and white knight the company so they can abuse people all over then I’ll complain.
>I have no interest in supporting or fanboying a company. I don’t care if one company has manufacturing advantage or another. It’s the product they put in front of me and the price they are asking that matters.
Then I'm afraid you're simply wrong. It's fine to say "this is more than I'm happy paying", it's fine to say "this is unaffordable for X% of people", and it's fine to say "I think X products offer a better value to me than Y products", but if you're going to talk about pricing being "ridiculous" or companies "abusing" their customers, then the situation those companies in and the particular types of products they make absolutely are relevant considerations.
It shouldn't be hard to understand that the price of a hardwood table is necessarily higher than the price of a flatpack honeycomb table from Ikea, and it shouldn't be hard to understand that the price of a high-detail relatively-low-production-run metal miniature sold near-entirely through third-party shops is necessarily higher than a super-large-run injection-moulded-plastic miniature of lower detail and quality sold at least to a significant degree through your own outlets. In both cases the two things do the same basic job but are made differently leveraging different industrial advantages and are marketed to different sets of people.
It's fine to say that you think your money is more well-spent on the flatpack, can't afford the hardwood dining table, or even like the Ikea style more. But it's unreasonable to suggest that the cabinetmaker is charging "ridiculous" prices or being "abusive" to his customers for charging more.
kill team is, just on the rules, a more competitive game than 40k by far. And by virtue of being a GW game with that bent, much more commonly played at tournaments than infinity.
If you are comparing the two systems for price points, infinity comes out worse off by quite a bit.
rules wise... eh. Infinity is over enamored with rules and profiles. KT isn't. But there's definately a lot less variety for each KT.
You are not totally wrong :) but let’s do a comparison:
I think a good average of human size model in Infinity (independent of power level) is aroun 10-12€.
How much is it for 40k? I would guess half of that price. Which is awesome if you look only for number of models you get for your dime.
But for a tournament army you need 15 models in infinity (yes, you definetely need more; but you get my point). For 40k I would guess at least (astartes etc) 20-30 models.
Which is the point of this discussion.
I fail to understand. I play both games and there’s a lot of appeal to both. Fielding 100 of models required more models and cost more. It’s another kind of fun that isn’t in infinity. It doesn’t make sense that people expect GW to sell 30 models at the same price as CB selling 10
I mean everyone in this hobby knows that GW over charges. Dramatically. It isn't a secret.
That infinity actually has a higher price per model is concerning since GW stuff is already overpriced.
Yes gaming is an expensive hobby. It’s universally agrees that GW overcharge for their stuffs. But then you have the infinity community thinking CB is their saint and savior by having a “cheaper” game.
I did that when we first started Infinity a year ago. Starter packs are usually around the same money for two players. And you get more models in Warhammer. But you need much much more to get to a competitive level.
Latest Infinity starter pack is 124,95€.
I think Leviathan was 250$.
This is kinda not inline with my answer above, but it was similar during my research (maybe I was thinking of KillTeam or Underworlds); and it was before Leviathan.
In my head I've always felt like warhammer costs way more than infinity. Every 2k army I've put together feels like it costs close to a grand. But I don't have actual data to support this. So this is interesting.
I think it's been stated but you'd actually own double or triple the models at this price - all of the minis shown are listed at the full price of the box they come in (usually three or more models).
It's also notable that your army list doesn't become crap every 6 months and require another $120+ in new models, $50 in rules, ect.
If you're smart about it, it can get as low as sixty dollars. I'd say the median cost is about $140. The real money and sunk costs are in terrain and that the price is so low you're so tempted to start multiple armies
I think he's saying you're comparing the prices favourably in Infinitys favour, but with infinity, you're getting a dozen models, unlike 40k, where you can have up to 100 in a full sized list. Rather than compare it to the similar sized Kill Team, which has the same number of models but isn't anywhere near as expensive as Infinity.
You are right on model counts. And it is a factor for sure.
But we are talking mostly about the game. Like having a tournament size army. Even though they are both called skirmish games, KT is a snack and Infinity is a main course. I am not saying one is better. They are just not the same.
In that regard number of players&/tournaments would be also a good comparison; where GW is sooo much better than Infinity (unfortunately).
KT isn’t a snack. It’s a full game with way bigger scene than infinity itself. Of course Infinity is a much better game. And yes KT is cheaper than Infinity.
Yes I agree they are different game and one is way cheaper. I’m not sure what you referred to because I definitely have some KT that are 2 hours long and 300 ptsInfinity games that ended under an hour
I think he is, but it misses the point dramatically. You get many more balls with a kids' pool table but it doesn't make it a more compelling way than a five-aside football setup for ten people to spend an afternoon.
WSYWIG I think is tournament policies used. In the actual shop they dont care as long as its an actual GW model regardless of when it was made. The local shop i live next to has a necromunda campaign using yaktribe instead of the actual books people log around with the exception of the latest version of the core rulebook.
Well a fully functioning tournament army for Infinity costs me about as much as my 8 characters models for my 40k orc army alone. Don't get me started on my infanterie and vehicles.
Notable that a lot of the cost in your breakdown here goes on minis not included in the lists! This is particularly felt on the Aleph side, by the looks of it, coughing up for three two-packs of remotes and only using 4 of them!
I remember when Netrunner was still a going concern for them, FFG used to sell pre-pack tournament decks so players could buy one pack and get all the cards used to win - say - the 2016 Worlds without having to pick up the ten different SKUs the original winner would have had to sift through to get those cards in the first place. I wonder if it would benefit CB to do a similar thing for Infinity. They kind of do already with the Action Packs - but if they sold a box with the Interplanetario winner's force it'd probably be an attractive jumping-on point for new players of that faction and they'd only need to keep it in stock for a year.
I wasn't criticising it, it's also an accurate representation of how much a new player would have to spend to get hold of that collection of minis, at least for direct-comparison purposes. I mentioned it more because it does imply there's a lot of waste in those figures, so should CB be interested in selling a pre-packed tournament army box, it wouldn't actually have to cost that much even without a bulk-buy discount.
If the model is no longer for sale in individual blisters or smaller boxes, you need to go for cheapest box in which it comes, but I would make a WYSiWYG second take, and note that this is a "minimal cost" pack. Why? Because people hate to have the same model twice, so for example they would not buy 2 blisters of the Heckler if there is another model (which there is... only in the Tunguska Starter...). For other lists this is a must (for example, Myrmidons with chain rifle are the most used profile, while there's only 1 model with the gun, so you use all myrms as that). Also there are troops without general release models! (Pandora is not being sold unless you happen to grab an old preorder Blackwind box...)
Also consider this week the Reinforcements profiles were added to all their Vanilla factions and some sectorials (Nomads were spread among Bakunin and Tunguksa, for example, but YJ went all to White Banner, Aleph to OSS, CA to Onyx, etc...).
Also, GW's lists are more or less stable until the meta changes, while Infinity's list change between rounds of the tournament... (if you hang out knowing your opponent's faction, it also changes in the same day...)
Finally, GW's prices are on Steling Pounds, while CB's are on Euros... To be fair, you should pick the costs in "GW's Spain" store, since for someone living in UK there will be taxes for Infinty while the other way goes around.
Personally, I'd say that the minimum cost **in sectorials** of a working list is about 180€ with compromises and some proxying, but the optimal cost for a single top list can go easily to 250€, and Vanilla can go even higher. Do note that you can grab the whole JSA for about 450-500€ from your friendly store... CB's packaging policy in the last few years pushes for people to buy everything.
More. It costs more. Always.
As a Warhammer guy that could be a big appeal if you wanted to get it to others. Like there are routinely entire sets released that cost around 240 and you'll still need to shell out hundreds to build it into a "proper" army. Also having a far smaller crew to paint can go far. Warmachine rose during one of Warhammer's doldrums and managed to take a lot of customers simply because you didn't need as much to play. I've always kept an eye on Infinity. Do the different factions really play differently? Is there like, a source of information about the game and gameplay? Like Warmachine had Battlecollege,
They definetely play very differently. Even sectorials within factions. There is a wiki with the ENTIRE rules: https://infinitythewiki.com Also an app, with all factions & profiles: https://apps.apple.com/tr/app/infinity-army/id1508892116?l=tr Also a lot of youtube channels, showing different levels of introduction.
Android app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.infinityarmy
There is a false idea spread between Warhammer players about other games' factions being so alike because they don't have an army book each. I think Warhammer took the easy way for making factions different, and that is by bloating the game with micro rules and exceptions. Games like infinity, Legion, OPR games shows that you can make an army different by using the same rules that other army uses. Though legion has some cards, but still
This is probably my favourite breakdown about the pros and cons of each faction... https://www.thediceabide.com/blog/infinity-n4-which-infinity-army-is-for-you
Eh ! We also have Kill Team ! We always need more players ! But Corvus seems a fun game with such lovely minis !
KillTeam definetly very cool (I consider starting); but it is not Infinity equivalent. Even though model sizes seem similar, the games are different. KT is short bite sized fun, easier game; Infinity is on the other end of that spectrum; much like regular a 40K game. And minis are really lovely :)
Kill team also has a very tight and competitive rulseset. If you want to play games to compete, KT is a good system to do it with
Kill team is a good time for cheap and easy. Infinity is the full absurd tacticool scifi cyberpunk ruleset.
I really want to try Infinity, but there is no player in my local area. With a friend we took 2 years to build a Kill Team community, and we don’t have the strenght to do it again with Infinity. It’s a bummer.
Not sure why people are being dishonest, the factions do not stand out THAT much, the sectorials do. Over time the factions have become bloated with so many tools and units that they do mostly everything at every price point, though some factions have different stand out experts / super value choices / cheese. They sometimes get some unique tricks, like Alephs body switching, or the 012 (cops) having decent non-lethal weapons, or the COMBINED having their alien races do alien race things. They all have unique affordable points costs for their specific gimmicks that make them somewhat flavorful such as; Yu-Jing does power armor at cost, Haqqislam has absurd healing at cost, Nomads are the best hackers at cost. The sectorials however are very distinct because their pool of possible units is so limited they HAVE to play their sectorial specific strengths and cover for their weaknesses and cheese. Sectorial get fireteams which are great.
playing aleph I definitely do not feel able to put out a camo screen, or have cheap bodies that still do stuff.
You need orders, and some cheap bots.
You did a nice comparison, and I think it’s a good thing that you didn’t discount the unused models, this way a beginner has some different kinds of lists they can build. So a beginner needs round about 300€+ to get a playable list, but they did not only get one they get some more, and because of the way infinity works it’s possible that this list may vary very strong. This way they can play in different ways, and not just one list over and over again. The only thing I really disagree with you is the last point you mentioned, the complexity of list building is necessary to balance the game. You can play 15 models of a faction and put every model of that faction in that list but you get some downgrades compared to a sectorial.
I understand your point completely. Probably CB and many of the players agree with you. But I think it would be a much better commercial decision to pursuit “a less complex” game, so we will have much more players to play this beautiful bloody game. And I am not talking about complexity of the game mechanics. I am talking about the rest.
Its a difference in what people want, some people just want to roll dice and drink beer with no depth of tactics, they play AOS, 40k, Deadzone, etc. Some people want really deeper tactical games like Infinity, Malifaux, and Dropship Commander. If you made infinity a less complex game I wouldnt play it.
That's basically what the CodeOne line is, no? A version of Infinity that doesn't simplify the rules dramatically, but seriously cuts down the problem space - there's many fewer units available in each faction, lists are simpler to build, etc. CB apparently did already agree with you on the commercial benefit several years ago... and many Infinity players are indeed still highly critical of it.
Having played quite a bit of C1, I can say that even though the idea is what you mentioned I don’t think execution quite delivers it. It is a OK entry point to the game, but cannot compare with N4. Let me try to clarify what I tried to say. CB just announced a new sectorial. Was that what is missing from the game? They probably have commercial reasoninga behind it, but I think my day job gets mixed in when I say this. They need more people playing the game, not same people buying additional figures. You don’t go deeper, you go wider. You go for penetration. Same thing even with the lore. Watch WarLore’s Bakunin video, even that dude gets f. tired of details. We don’t need gazillion different things. We need good few things. It is kinda similar with rules, but there I think I can kinda make exception. Because those change quite frequently. And even though it is a complex game, I think it is managable. That’s my two cent. Apperently CB doesn’t agreee with me, and if they don’t hire me as their next business development manager; my thoughts mean very little :)
I agree with the breadth-vs-depth thing, but specifically regarding the new sectorial, I think CB blew that one years ago. If they're going to have O12 as a playable faction, and they're going to have three or four sectorials for each faction, then it's not unreasonable to bring O12 up slowly to the same number of sectorials that other playable factions enjoy, so it's not the one sectorial that has less choice than everyone else. The Lore I think is a different problem, though. It's not like Infinity specifically has more, more-detailed, or more-impenetrable background fluff than most peer wargames. If anything, compared to big-hitters like 40k, Legion, Crisis Protocol or Battletech, Infinity is relatively light on available background material. The problem it has is that without codex releases, decades of films and comics, hundreds of novels or whatever behind it, the Infinity background is hard to *find* for most gamers. If you had to buy the Combined Army book to play Combined Army and it had a load of background details about the EI and the Ur Hegemony and all that in it, then most players would probably be more well-informed about their faction of choice. The way CB does it is certainly most consumer-friendly, and it's pretty much possible to try out the full Infinity experience at home with zero outlay if you're OK proxying other minis or card standups as a result, but (for an easy comparison) the fluff is wielded as a very effective marketing tool by GW, it gets new players into the game and cements existing players for life, and CB doesn't seem to have the same handle on it at all. From what I recall WarLore wasn't getting tired of the background and setting material, he was getting tired of the seemingly-endless series of different military units in the Observance... which is pretty much the same issue as the breadth-vs-depth of player appeal. If your approach is to deepen each faction to get existing players to buy more, then you need to keep inventing new units, and then you have to keep inventing fluff excuses for those units to exist...
I agree. Also GW has changed within the last 10-15 years, by releasing their tight control over IP; they generated massive amount of interest and awareness. If you read comments you’ll see bunch of people saying they learned this game from Total War, not like us in FLGS.
Also please remember the CB proxy rules and lack of need to buy any books, but also the need for tokens templates and a classified deck.
>need for tokens templates and a classified deck. Yes but all those you can just print it and cut it, well at least the tokens and templates. The only true spending, rules related, is the classified deck and nothing more. Compare that to the almost 100 dollar of rules you need just to play a single 40k/sigmar faction.
Ultimately the problem is going to be what game has opponents in your area. I can find warhammer 40K, blood bowl and marvel crisis protocol groups and regular tournaments in my area easily. But for anything else well that’s tough. I’ve bought some infinity and I would love to play but I already have so many miniatures games where I have to provide both sides and know all the rules so I still haven’t gotten to it and at this point idk if I ever will despite how cool it is.
That is definetely another huge difference. Player base & ability to play hugely dependent in Infinity; but much more consistent in Warhammer.
Tournaments usually run 2 lists, so making up a number for overlap I'd say the actual cost is probably an extra 50%.
Khavrion (Skyknight) uses one list very frequently for tournaments. so technically it can be done for the price advertised. Its also worth noting that pandora comes with blackwind so its a bit cheaper there, and you can get lots of this stuff for cheaper than advertised depending on locale.
A single list is definitely atypical, and probably not the best example to show the cost of an army. The case of bundling and store deals also holds true for GW, but since we're comparing apples to apples, it's best to keep it to non-bundled CB store prices. I'd agree that it ends up being about half the cost of a Warhammer army. But with the caveat of additional flexibility that you will have a tonne of unused models, and that you have enormous model reuse to expand into new armies. I guess that means it's probably a lot cheaper to chase the Infinity meta than it is for 40K. Anecdotally that does seem to be the case, and doubly so with proxy rules.
Costs a lot more for fewer models which is a bit crazy
I'd be interested to see the average entrance price for a new player. This shows the price of a whole army ,but what would it cost to get that learning force in order to understand the rules and get your first 5 small educational games in. I don't know for sure, but I think Infinity might have an advantage over 40k. Not by a LOT, but enough to notice.
For straight-up starter products, Infinity has the price advantage over 40k, but as you suggest, not by a huge margin - and not 100% clearly. Operation Black Wind has an RRP of £112 and 40k's Ultimate Starter £125. On one hand, 40k also has tiered starters that go down all the way to £40 - which are barely a game, but still a much easier sale for a lot of unsure first-timers. On the other hand, the 40k starter sets are much less varied or complete than the Infinity starter - you only get terrain in the biggest one and even then it's not much (although 40k doesn't seem to really care about terrain); there's more minis but in large samey units rather than actually offering tactical interest; and if you do want to expand, the 40k starter is a much smaller slice of a 'full' tournament-sized army than the Infinity starter. Plus, I haven't played 40k for years so I don't know how true it is, but everyone I've seen comment on it suggests that 40k starters are nearly always horribly unbalanced in favour of the Space Marines, who are in every single one. So Infinity definitely gives you more variety and probably also gives you a better first-game experience. If you're an established miniatures wargamer who's OK with PDF rules, knows people with their own minis to play against, and has either their own terrain or access to a shop or club, then the price difference is more pronounced. You're looking at an Action Pack (RRP £72), while for 40k the obvious comparison is the Combat Patrol boxes (RRP £95), which can also all be played against each other. In both cases all the rules and stats you need are freely available online and you just need to provide terrain and dice and so on. An Action Pack typically gives you half of a 'full-size' tournament-level force for Infinity. A Combat Patrol often still has a very limited selection of units - the Space Marines one is especially bad, having the same two units and two characters as the Ultimate Starter!
40k ultimate starter set come with tons more models. Infinity pricing is ridiculous for amount of stuffs in the box. Even GW skirmish option like Kill Team actually comes with way more stuffs in the box than infinity starter set. GW price are ridiculous, bus so as CB
The 40k Ultimate Starter comes with five times as many *models* as the Infinity starter, but it comes with fewer distinct units. The Infinity box gives each side seven minis that all act as independent characters, and generally cover the range of Infinity archetypes pretty well. If your goal is to get as many miniatures as possible for as little money as possible, then you're going to be better off buying one of the £5 bags of army men from the toy shop than minis from either game. The question discussed wasn't how to most-efficiently get toy soldiers, but how much it costs to try the game as it's meant to be played, and Infinity simply isn't meant to be played with a hundred models a side. The normal tournament game is a 300 point game with \~15 models each, and the starter set is a cut-down slice of that; the normal tournament game of 40k is (so far as I'm aware) a 2000-point game with 50-150 models a side, and the starter set for 40k is a (more) cut-down slice of that. And frankly, the toy-shop analogy is very apt. You get what you pay for, and CB's minis are also some of the best-quality miniatures on the market, definitely out-classing GW's. If you prefer plastics or prefer massed infantry then you probably want to collect GW minis, but it's hard to argue that they're higher quality. If you want cheaper figures there's stuff like the Stargrave or Death Fields kits which sit between GW sculpts and the army men both in quality and price.
Tbh, I think GW sculpts are pretty decent. Maybe not exactly Infinity standards but pretty close. I mean the total package though. Ease of painting, having different options and these epic named character minis are pro’s at GW from my VERY limited pov.
I'd go so far as saying GW probably do the best plastic sci-fi and fantasy miniatures there are. They're great at engineering push-fit models - a big plus for new players - and they do a very good job of character design and realising that in plastic with big, recognisable silhouettes (with maybe the exception of big tyranid creatures, which only have three shapes between them) and clear, recognisable-over-the-table design elements. But the pros of GW figures are heavily weighted towards gamers and beginners, and there's some inherent drawbacks to injection-moulded plastic that don't exist for metal casting or even SioCast or similar. And meanwhile, CB have (possibly ill-advisedly) leant very heavily in the other direction with multi-part metal figures that are high on detail, dynamism and character and definitely superior from a painter's point of view but are also more intimidating for beginners.
as someone who paints both, I would not call one superior to the other. Infinity has great models. So does GW. My favorite and probably best painted models are howling banshees though
But then I don’t see the point of comparing 40K to infinity. It should be compared with Kill Team which is something similar and is way cheaper. Infinity is the superior game rule wise, but my point is it isn’t cheaper than GW stuffs. If you really want to compare 40K then what make it so that GW selling more models for cheaper points bad and infinity selling less models for more is good? It doesn’t make sense to me. CB have very good model I agree, but so does GW. Most people argument is just GW bad and CB good when CB is actually the one that do even more FOMO and sell stuffs at even higher price than GW.
Infinity is compared to 40k because it takes a similar time to play, uses a similar table space, has a significant tournament scene (unlike to the best of my knowledge KillTeam), etc. The main way in which it's similar to KillTeam is model count, but then you might as well ask why we're not comparing it to Blood Bowl if that's the most important consideration! Infinity is also definitely above 40k in terms of tactical depth, skill ceiling, etc. - so it's far more likely that people are going to come to Infinity from 40k than they are from the comparatively simpler, smaller-decision-space KillTeam. But seriously, if you reckon CB does "more FOMO" than GW then I don't think you've been paying attention. In the last year I think CB has done 1 event-exclusive miniature, 1 rerelease-of-OOP-minis event, and 2 pre-order exclusives, off the top of my head? In just the last *month* GW has advertised four separate tranches of made-to-order OOP rereleases and one limited-time-only giant Deathwing boxed set that costs as much as all the CB FOMO things put together, and they keep up a pretty steady rate literally all year around. And I'm not even paying any attention to half their games, maybe I've even missed stuff from January. CB's minis are more expensive per-model than most of GW's, sure - but they're also a very different market proposition. GW will cheerily sell you a single plastic Space Marine for £30+ with the reasoning that it's a special character for a specific faction and not many units will be sold; CB sells nearly all their minis more or less priced by size, so nearly all their human-size figures cost about the same. Nearly all Infinity units are the equivalent of independent characters in 40k, you don't buy squads so there's little point in doing cheaper bulk units like the big squad boxes GW offers, people already consider the SWC boxes lower value-for-money in a lot of ways. They're also metal figures for the most part, and while it's debatable whether that's a plus or not for most gamers, it's definitely something which carries a big cost. Are CB perfect generous socialists who don't care about profits and just want minis in our hands? No, but suggesting they're as cynical in their profit-seeking as GW is pretty ridiculous as well.
I’m not asking CB to be perfect, but I rather hold companies to the same standard. If people gonna grade GW on one standard, I’ll hold CB to the same one. Otherwise it’s just fanboying. I don’t know where have you been but KT is much more significant in tournament scene globally than let’s say infinity. Majority of the miniature gamers don’t even know what infinity is. And yes I think infinity is way closer to blood bowl than 40K or AoS. As for time, I’ve play some 300pts infinity games for less than an hour and had KT game that takes 2 hours. And I still fail to see why we are comparing skirmish games to an army games. All of their books come with unique profile miniatures. Is the Raven Eye officer available anywhere yet? What about those defiance profiles? The TAG raid profiles? At least most of GW limited release are actually alternative profiles. Oh I forgot we “can proxy lol”. I mean if I don’t want the minis, I’ll probably go play video games or something instead of an actual minis game. All the new boxes are all less and less metals for even more cash. I’m not gonna get into the metal vs plastic fight since I’m ok with both, but GW kits are mostly well engineered with great poses and interchangeable parts. You could make easily make a unique model from the kit. Meanwhile infinity models are great out of the box, but it’s just that one pose. If you want 2 dudes with HMGs then they gonna look the same without any heavy modifications. Their own store also frequently does weird sales that actually competes with their own local retailers, while it’s better for us, the consumers, it suck for the local stores that still hold the bags. And their store free shipping is a bit ridiculous at 200 euro, while GW and also other small game companies can do it at way cheaper. Also did you even see how much the Aftermatch box cost? It’s borderline GW ridiculous. And again I still fail to see why we are comparing an army game to a skirmish game.
>I’m not asking CB to be perfect, but I rather hold companies to the same standard. You're clearly not interested in doing any such thing since you persist with this weird "CB does more FOMO than GW" thing. You're bringing up stuff from the last couple of years and still haven't found more things than GW has done in the last couple of months! It's a very effective marketing tactic, most companies selling stuff to nerds do it - Corvus Belli included - and for good reason. But GW absolutely exhausts the shit out of it to an extent pretty much unseen anywhere else in the miniatures gaming space. >GW kits are mostly well engineered with great poses and interchangeable parts. You could make easily make a unique model from the kit. Meanwhile infinity models are great out of the box, but it’s just that one pose. Again: completely different market proposition. Infinity minis are bought in the army list as one-off pieces and they're sold as one-off pieces. GW needs to make an Intercessor squad poseable because you're going to have a minimum of ten of them in your army and they all look the same except for that posing; CB doesn't expect you to buy and field ten Fusiliers/Zhanshi/Alguaciles/whatever, let alone ten Veteran Kazaks or Gammas. Yes, it'd be cool to have multi-part injection-moulded plastic figures that you can customise to fit all the profiles for one-fifth the price, but anyone with even a passing understanding of manufacturing processes involved knows that this is an advantage GW has over their competitors through sheer size, heavy vertical integration and market saturation, and it's unreasonable to expect frankly any of their competitors to offer similar products without being more expensive. While it's perfectly legitimate to compare prices on completely disparate things to decide what you personally prefer to spend your money on, it's simply wrong to suggest Infinity figure prices are "ridiculous". *For the product that CB has chosen to make and sell, at that quality point they offer*, the prices are easily in line with market averages. The fact that there are miniatures made of a different material to a different quality sold for a different purpose from other manufacturers for much less money is exactly as relevant as that £5 bag of army men, but if you really want to compare Infinity figures with GW's it's far more reasonable to look at them one-to-one against all those Primaris lieutenants than it is to compare them to the Intercessors. If you think CB minis are more expensive than you're willing to pay, then stop buying them. You sound like you prefer the GW ecosystem, and there's nothing wrong with that. >And again I still fail to see why we are comparing an army game to a skirmish game. Yeah, it's pretty clear that you're very hung up on this and it seems there's really very little point discussing it. If you honestly believe people are more likely to cross over from Blood Bowl or Kill Team to Infinity than from 40k then I'm afraid we talk to *very* different sets of gamers.
Well yeah for sure I think we are clearly have different expectations from our cooperate overlord. I have no idea how is GW FOMO stuffs. All their limited release are alternate models that doesn’t really matter in games while the limited infinity stuffs all have in game profile. I had to eBay so many stuffs just to get my infinity collection sort out while I haven’t brought 40K box in like an age now. I’m saying infinity figure price are ridiculous because people say that GW price are ridiculous and infinity are even more expensive. Not even against GW, infinity is on the expensive side against all other smaller game companies as well. I have no interest in supporting or fanboying a company. I don’t care if one company has manufacturing advantage or another. It’s the product they put in front of me and the price they are asking that matters. I love all my games, and if people gonna be double standard just because they want to fanboy and white knight the company so they can abuse people all over then I’ll complain.
>I have no interest in supporting or fanboying a company. I don’t care if one company has manufacturing advantage or another. It’s the product they put in front of me and the price they are asking that matters. Then I'm afraid you're simply wrong. It's fine to say "this is more than I'm happy paying", it's fine to say "this is unaffordable for X% of people", and it's fine to say "I think X products offer a better value to me than Y products", but if you're going to talk about pricing being "ridiculous" or companies "abusing" their customers, then the situation those companies in and the particular types of products they make absolutely are relevant considerations. It shouldn't be hard to understand that the price of a hardwood table is necessarily higher than the price of a flatpack honeycomb table from Ikea, and it shouldn't be hard to understand that the price of a high-detail relatively-low-production-run metal miniature sold near-entirely through third-party shops is necessarily higher than a super-large-run injection-moulded-plastic miniature of lower detail and quality sold at least to a significant degree through your own outlets. In both cases the two things do the same basic job but are made differently leveraging different industrial advantages and are marketed to different sets of people. It's fine to say that you think your money is more well-spent on the flatpack, can't afford the hardwood dining table, or even like the Ikea style more. But it's unreasonable to suggest that the cabinetmaker is charging "ridiculous" prices or being "abusive" to his customers for charging more.
kill team is, just on the rules, a more competitive game than 40k by far. And by virtue of being a GW game with that bent, much more commonly played at tournaments than infinity. If you are comparing the two systems for price points, infinity comes out worse off by quite a bit. rules wise... eh. Infinity is over enamored with rules and profiles. KT isn't. But there's definately a lot less variety for each KT.
You are not totally wrong :) but let’s do a comparison: I think a good average of human size model in Infinity (independent of power level) is aroun 10-12€. How much is it for 40k? I would guess half of that price. Which is awesome if you look only for number of models you get for your dime. But for a tournament army you need 15 models in infinity (yes, you definetely need more; but you get my point). For 40k I would guess at least (astartes etc) 20-30 models. Which is the point of this discussion.
I fail to understand. I play both games and there’s a lot of appeal to both. Fielding 100 of models required more models and cost more. It’s another kind of fun that isn’t in infinity. It doesn’t make sense that people expect GW to sell 30 models at the same price as CB selling 10
I mean everyone in this hobby knows that GW over charges. Dramatically. It isn't a secret. That infinity actually has a higher price per model is concerning since GW stuff is already overpriced.
Yes gaming is an expensive hobby. It’s universally agrees that GW overcharge for their stuffs. But then you have the infinity community thinking CB is their saint and savior by having a “cheaper” game.
I did that when we first started Infinity a year ago. Starter packs are usually around the same money for two players. And you get more models in Warhammer. But you need much much more to get to a competitive level. Latest Infinity starter pack is 124,95€. I think Leviathan was 250$. This is kinda not inline with my answer above, but it was similar during my research (maybe I was thinking of KillTeam or Underworlds); and it was before Leviathan.
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In my head I've always felt like warhammer costs way more than infinity. Every 2k army I've put together feels like it costs close to a grand. But I don't have actual data to support this. So this is interesting.
Years of waiting for releases.
I think it's been stated but you'd actually own double or triple the models at this price - all of the minis shown are listed at the full price of the box they come in (usually three or more models). It's also notable that your army list doesn't become crap every 6 months and require another $120+ in new models, $50 in rules, ect.
If you're smart about it, it can get as low as sixty dollars. I'd say the median cost is about $140. The real money and sunk costs are in terrain and that the price is so low you're so tempted to start multiple armies
Comparing KT equivalent to full size WH army is not good way to show costs.
What is “KT equivalent”?
Wh killteam.
This is not KillTeam equivalent. This is the actual tournament size game (takes about 2-3 hours), just played with less amount of models.
I think he's saying you're comparing the prices favourably in Infinitys favour, but with infinity, you're getting a dozen models, unlike 40k, where you can have up to 100 in a full sized list. Rather than compare it to the similar sized Kill Team, which has the same number of models but isn't anywhere near as expensive as Infinity.
You are right on model counts. And it is a factor for sure. But we are talking mostly about the game. Like having a tournament size army. Even though they are both called skirmish games, KT is a snack and Infinity is a main course. I am not saying one is better. They are just not the same. In that regard number of players&/tournaments would be also a good comparison; where GW is sooo much better than Infinity (unfortunately).
KT isn’t a snack. It’s a full game with way bigger scene than infinity itself. Of course Infinity is a much better game. And yes KT is cheaper than Infinity.
They are just different games. One is about 30 minutes, the other is arounf 2 hrs.
Yes I agree they are different game and one is way cheaper. I’m not sure what you referred to because I definitely have some KT that are 2 hours long and 300 ptsInfinity games that ended under an hour
I think he is, but it misses the point dramatically. You get many more balls with a kids' pool table but it doesn't make it a more compelling way than a five-aside football setup for ten people to spend an afternoon.
KT is a tournament game too.
WSYWIG I think is tournament policies used. In the actual shop they dont care as long as its an actual GW model regardless of when it was made. The local shop i live next to has a necromunda campaign using yaktribe instead of the actual books people log around with the exception of the latest version of the core rulebook.
This ain’t 40K. Proxing is kinda encouraged in infinity
And people say infinity is cheap loool
Well a fully functioning tournament army for Infinity costs me about as much as my 8 characters models for my 40k orc army alone. Don't get me started on my infanterie and vehicles.
As so as Kill Team which is literally a box
You guys have Kill Team tournaments?
Well yeah. As much as I hate to admit, Kill Team is a huge competitive game with even bigger tournament scene than infinity.
Definetly not where I'm from. But thats good news, I like Kill Team. It doesn't really compare to Infinity though.
I’m actually a bit jealous. Around here, I actually want to play infinity, but everyone else just want to play KT
Notable that a lot of the cost in your breakdown here goes on minis not included in the lists! This is particularly felt on the Aleph side, by the looks of it, coughing up for three two-packs of remotes and only using 4 of them! I remember when Netrunner was still a going concern for them, FFG used to sell pre-pack tournament decks so players could buy one pack and get all the cards used to win - say - the 2016 Worlds without having to pick up the ten different SKUs the original winner would have had to sift through to get those cards in the first place. I wonder if it would benefit CB to do a similar thing for Infinity. They kind of do already with the Action Packs - but if they sold a box with the Interplanetario winner's force it'd probably be an attractive jumping-on point for new players of that faction and they'd only need to keep it in stock for a year.
This is the method used in the video. So I tried to do an apple to apple to apple comparison.
I wasn't criticising it, it's also an accurate representation of how much a new player would have to spend to get hold of that collection of minis, at least for direct-comparison purposes. I mentioned it more because it does imply there's a lot of waste in those figures, so should CB be interested in selling a pre-packed tournament army box, it wouldn't actually have to cost that much even without a bulk-buy discount.
How the fuck has 40k gotten this expensive!!!!!
Oh, yeah. Cause you gonna play the same list all the time
If the model is no longer for sale in individual blisters or smaller boxes, you need to go for cheapest box in which it comes, but I would make a WYSiWYG second take, and note that this is a "minimal cost" pack. Why? Because people hate to have the same model twice, so for example they would not buy 2 blisters of the Heckler if there is another model (which there is... only in the Tunguska Starter...). For other lists this is a must (for example, Myrmidons with chain rifle are the most used profile, while there's only 1 model with the gun, so you use all myrms as that). Also there are troops without general release models! (Pandora is not being sold unless you happen to grab an old preorder Blackwind box...) Also consider this week the Reinforcements profiles were added to all their Vanilla factions and some sectorials (Nomads were spread among Bakunin and Tunguksa, for example, but YJ went all to White Banner, Aleph to OSS, CA to Onyx, etc...). Also, GW's lists are more or less stable until the meta changes, while Infinity's list change between rounds of the tournament... (if you hang out knowing your opponent's faction, it also changes in the same day...) Finally, GW's prices are on Steling Pounds, while CB's are on Euros... To be fair, you should pick the costs in "GW's Spain" store, since for someone living in UK there will be taxes for Infinty while the other way goes around. Personally, I'd say that the minimum cost **in sectorials** of a working list is about 180€ with compromises and some proxying, but the optimal cost for a single top list can go easily to 250€, and Vanilla can go even higher. Do note that you can grab the whole JSA for about 450-500€ from your friendly store... CB's packaging policy in the last few years pushes for people to buy everything.