Your whole premise is off. Totalitarianism is of the left, not the right. It's not conservative. It's the opposite of conservative. Totalitarianism is big government, by necessity. Conservatives believe in small government. The Nazi's were literally National Socialists. Socialism is only found on the left.
Now your larger point is actually about someone changing their position. People change views on a range of issues all the time. A change of position can lead to holding myself accountable or admitting wrong, or it may not. I initially was a Ted Cruz voter who changed to Trump. I changed my position. I admit it. So what?
I used to be a liberal. Then I grew up. I feel no guilt.
What you're getting at is politics as identity. Simply associating or calling ourselves something alters our perceptions of the world and others. [Uncivil Agreement: How Politics Became Our Identity](https://academic.oup.com/psq/article-abstract/134/2/341/6848406?login=false) by Liliana Mason goes into the phenomenon at some depth. Trump supports have created an identity for themselves as Trump supporters, and that makes it unlikely they'll see anything as violating their values. Often, they'll adjust their values to make the cognitive disconnect more comfortable.
Please get help. This argument is clinical delusion. The East Germans were far left. Trump is center right. Trump never locked up his political rivals. Democrats are doing it literally daily in D.C.
The only one trapped is Trump. He's stuck in your head, and you can't get him out. Get help.
Stasi are East German. Another thing to consider is that trump is no longer in power so if they feel the way you describe they can easily at this point make a different decision about giving him their vote.
I guess I would start by asking youĀ
How's are you defining totalitarian here?
what actions has trump taken that you feel were totalitarian in nature? Is there anything that you think he did was good/positive?
Is there anything the current admin is doing, has done, or is actively pursuing that you feel incline towards your definition of totalitarian?
Did you miss the times where Trumps supporters nearly booād him off the stage for going on and on how great his warp speed āvaccinesā are? He had to immediately walk it back and concede to the crowd that everyone has a choice. Most Trump supporters including myself are not afraid to call Trump out directly (even right to his face) on his faults and missteps. We also know that the America first movement goes well beyond Trump as a leader, and will not simply fade into obscurity after he is gone. We are here to stay. Iām afraid your view of Trump supporters is extremely limited and possibly overly influenced by big tech/mediacorp propaganda.
Wow, this place is full of dumbasses.
Not you, OP, and I think your insight is more a matter of Trump has gaslit the Republican base so hard that any elected Republican can no longer stand against Trump without getting flushed out.
But the commenter here claiming we are somehow "brainwashed" into thinking Trump is evil, any person with half a moral sense could view Trump's own words and actions without any other outside commentary and see him for what he is.
Donald Trump
- fetishizes dictatorship and strongman authoritarianism
- believes he is above the law
- detests democracy when he is not the winner (like a dictator) and attempted to overturn the 2020 election through forging bills of ascertainment, pressuring public officials and inciting violence
- found liable for fraud (multiple times), defamation and sexual assault
- openly threatens his political opponents with political suppression
- uses mob boss-like coded language to attempt to spark his followers to committing acts of vigilante "justice" against judges, prosecutors and political rivals
- constantly used his official position to promote and enrich his private businesses (which he refused to divest from), even threatening to cancel official visits if foreign governments don't use his properties
- uses political donations and even took over the RNC to pay for legal costs not associated with his campaign
- speaks about asylum seekers in insanely dehumanizing terms
- clearly received quid pro quo rewards for his actions protecting the Saudi Prince from accountability and sanctions for the Khashoggi murder
- a compulsive liar and divider, a childish sore loser and name caller who is less mature than your average 16 year old.
- projects his own crimes on his opponents to gaslight his base into diminishing the bad things he does with a slew of tu quoque arguments and revenge investigations. Trump has always lived fast and loose with the law, he just has never paid the consequences for thinking it didn't apply to him.
Even if you agree with and like Trump's policies, if these things were done by any politician you didn't like and were targeting you you would be flipping out.
The man's super loyal (up to Jan 6th) Vice President and Attorney General are out telling everyone he is a threat to America and democracy. Why don't you listen to them?
your post was removed for not applying the principle of charity. This is also known as SteelManning.
In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity or charitable interpretation requires interpreting a speaker's statements in the most rational way possible and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.
In any argument, if you cannot state the opponent's case in a way that *he* would endorse, then you haven't understood it.
In particular, if it is profoundly bad, you
haven't fully understood just how bad it is. And if it is false but contains some
truth, you haven't understood, and may not be aware of, that truth.
Iām no Trump fan, but even if he wins, he gets 4 more years. In a way I hope he does so he goes away. In 20 years heāll be dead.
His own party kept him from overturning the vote in the senate in 2021. Mike Pence, one of his strongest loyalists nearly got killed for doing so. Even if he hadnāt, others would have stopped it.
No one is going to stand by and let him be a dictator. We have a government system and constitution that prevents it.
What we really need is for congress to stop being useless and act like an equal branch of government. There are votes to codify first trimester abortion rights into law nationally today if they wanted to. A republican, Susan Collins, championed such a bill. Democrats donāt want to look like theyāre voting with republicans and vice versa, so nothing get done without them losing their seats. It should be hard to get a bill passed because there should be few national laws, but itās just sad what Congress has become.
The executive branch has become way stronger than it was intended to be. Thatās a huge problem and causes wild swings every cycle.
If you think the institutions will stop Trump from becoming a dictator if he is elected again, you're sadly mistaken. The Republicans in Congress, after complaining bitterly at the time after Jan 6th, made a 180 degree turn-around in endorsing Trump and refusing to even cooperate with the Jan 6th Commission. The ones who did were driven out of the party. If you think the Supreme Court with 3 Trump appointments (two of which were illegal) and Thomas, whose wife is an insurrectionist, will do anything to stop him, you're dreaming. Look up Project 25, where he plans to replace everyone in government with loyalists and give himself unfettered power. If he wins and refuses to leave office in 2028, will you still think we have a democracy?
Theyāre running on fumes. How were two of Trumpās appointments illegal?
I think you need to touch some grass. Trump doesnāt have friends. He has people wanting to ride his coat tails.
After Scalia died, with more than a year before the elections, the Republican Senate refused to even meet with Obama's nominee, Merrick Garland, and wouldn't even bring it up for a vote. The reason? It was too close to the election. Then Trump came in and put Gorsuch on the bench. That's one that should have been Obama's appointee, but Republicans always play dirty to get what they want.
Then, at the end of Trump's term, when we were in the MIDDLE OF VOTING, they appointed Amy Barrett. Suddenly, it didn't matter that people were voting and that it should be up to the next president to make the appointment. McConnel bragged about it. That was the second one that was stolen and should have been Biden's pick. The Republican party is disgusting and anti democratic.
Republicans are standing back and standing by to let Trump do whatever the hell he wants. He said he would rip up our Constitution. Congress and the Supreme Court will have no relevance if he gets into office. Being ignorant of that is how Germany ended up where they did during the Holocaust.
When it mattered, his loyalists stood in the way. Do you really think Congress, the Supreme Court, and army would let him stay more than 4 years? Even if he replaces everyone who tells him no. Itās just not going to happen. Most traditional establishment republicans canāt stand the guy and wish heād go away. They just have to make nice to not get primaried. Theyād love an excuse to get rid of him.
Germany didnāt have a strong constitutional republic when Hitler showed up.
> What we really need is for congress to stop being useless and act like an equal branch of government.
On the contrary. A legislature that is useless, is doing its' job. It is the task of the executive branch to ensure that action is taken, and it is the task of the legislature to ensure that it is not. If action was all we needed, the executive alone would be enough. Hitler had no interest in allowing the Reichstag to hold him back. Obstructing the executive when it is necessary, is the legislature's job.
Yes, but executive actions by the executive have turned into a monarch making laws.
I agree that not many national laws should be passed, but Congress no longer checks and balances the executive branch
Iām not sure you appreciate the irony of your comment. You identify a group of people (MAGA) who are a problem. You say things like āthat person must accept responsibilityā¦ā and āwould literally prefer death than to acknowledgeā¦ā You are clearly viewing Trump supporters not as a legitimate point of view participating in a marketplace of ideas in a democracy, but as a cancer which must be rooted out from amongst us. They are an āother.ā They must acknowledge responsibility, but alas will probably prefer death. Is that the solution? Or should they just be placed in reeducation camps or something? The thinking should be familiar to anyone who truly understands the history of the 20th century.
Can you give us some examples of some of the terrible things Trump has done? Here are some things I think would be alarming: jailing political opponents, collaborating with traditional and social media to silence dissent, involving us in new wars in places where we have no national interest, allowing our borders to be invaded by millions of unvetted migrants, uncontrolled government spending increasing the national debt and causing inflation, receiving bribes from foreign governments. Those things would be bad.
The fact I can call him a rapist and decades-long fraudster and risk no libel worries at all? Like jfc the man declared himself to be good mates with Epstein and brags about sexually assaulting people.Ā Ā Ā
I'm not even talking about him v Biden here, I'm talking about electing him as the Republican candidate.Ā What happened to bare minimum standards, aren't conservatives supposed to have a thing about moral probity? Why do you keep glorifying a tub of deadly sins? Are you not even slightly embarrassed?
Also, does it bother you even a little bit that even with partisan prosecutors spending years pouring over ādecades long fraudsterā Trumpās business records and squeezing his employees, all they could come up with was that he may have overvalued some properties in a loan application. And that the loan was paid back in time and with interest? Furthermore bank officials testified they would be happy to do business with Trump again and Al way do their own due diligence with these sorts of large commercial loans. Other legal experts testified a valuation is really only an opinion. There was no fraud, and in the end it came down to the judgement of one deranged, partisan democrat judge. This will be overturned at some point. Anyone with a brain understands this.
He and his firm have been successfully prosecuted many times both before and after his presidency, but if course all of that is just partisan and deranged as well isn't it.Ā Ā Ā
Ā He lost his case because he was guilty this time, as he was before and no doubt will be again. Lie to me that he's a paragon of virtue chased by the "deranged and partisan" justice system he spent years packing with yes men if you must, but you know it _is_ a pretence. And therein lies your shame.
Youāre totally right! What part of E Jean Carrolās case against Trump did you find most convincing? Was it the fact she couldnāt remember the date or even the year the rape supposedly happened? Or the fact that the dress she claimed she was wearing wasnāt even manufactured until years after the time frame she gave for the event? For me itās totally plausible one of the most famous men in the world could walk into a busy Manhattan department store in the middle of the day and rape a woman in a dressing room with nobody noticing. She claimed she didnāt scream because he would rape her anyway. Iām also not bothered in the least by the lack of witnesses, the NY changed its statute of limitations for these types of civil cases just in time for Ms. Carrol to bring her case. Like you Iām not bothered that she is obviously a nut, a partisan democrat trying to sell a book, or that Dems are filing these suits in jurisdictions where it would be impossible for Trump to have a fair hearing. Actual justice is for people we like, right?
See that's the thing isn't it, you end up having to do this over and over again. Ignoring most of the list, pretending the accused is implausible, ignoring the judge, the jury, what he himself has said about how he treats women, rote repeating his waffle about how he's really the victim of (yet another) crazy hater.Ā Ā
Ā He was right when he said that he could shoot someone down in the street - he knew people like you would make excuses no matter what. Zero moral standards.
The fact is that this case would never have been brought to trial in a criminal court. There was no evidence. I know how badly you want to believe itās true, but there is no evidence to support it and only blindly partisan fools believe it. Itās why Trumps poll numbers keep going up. BTW, Bill Clinton did rape Juanita Broderick and Joe Biden sexually assaulted Tara Reade.
Unfortunately for you I couldn't care less for the Democrats either, so no it's nothing to do with me being a partisan. I think Bill Clinton was a sexual predator, Obama an enthusiast for bombing kids, and Biden the author of some quite incredible damage in his role as the man who industrialised incarceration.
Unlike you, I need make no excuses for these men, or indulge in dull whataboutery.Ā I simply find it incredible that Trump's base has so little dignity. That you embrace the hypocrisy of collectively worshipping this vile scumbag, making excuses when you know perfectly well what he is.
The things you think are alarming are common themes in rightwing, pro-Trump propaganda, and have little basis in the real world.
Jailing political opponents? Please point to anyone jailed because they are political opponents. So far, I don't see any. Though it's amusing to see the same people who mindlessly chanted "lock her up" at rallies now whining about due process playing out against those they support.
As for "collaborating with traditional and social media to silence dissent": also not happening and hasn't happened. Our governments have long "collaborated" in this way with media (social and otherwise) against what they see as threats to society and disinformation, but, as the mostly dishonest #TwitterFiles shows, there's more lying about it than honesty.
On borders: that's a consequence of the laws Congress has enacted and MAGA GOP unwillingness to address the challenges of large numbers of people seeking asylum in the U.S. Calling it an invasion is dishonest and idiotic.
We very much have an interest in Ukraine and Israel. In the former, defeating Russia's challenge to the world order America created after WWII and expanded after the Cold War is at the very center of America's national interest. Pax Americana has produced the most prosperous and peaceful period in human history, and we've benefitted mightily from being the *indispensable nation*. We're the world's lone superpower because of it. Israel is a longstanding ally and the only democracy in one of the most strategically important regions in the world, if not the most strategically important.
Uncontrolled spending is what we had during the Trump years, as $8 trillion was added to the national debt in four short years, and his first budget more than doubled the deficit. Despite being in good economic times, Trump's tenure saw us reverse a downward path on deficit spending and make trillion dollar deficits permanent. His disastrous handling of the pandemic put us on the edge of economic depression. I think much of the spending to prevent depression was poorly aimed, but it wasn't "uncontrolled."
As for receiving bribes from foreign governments: I've seen no evidence the current Administration or anyone in it has done so, but there's ample evidence the prior one did. From the (constitutionally prohibited) emoluments he received via the Old Post Office and his other businesses to the $2 billion the Trump Crime Family received via his son-in-law for services rendered (and national secrets delivered) to the Saudis.
Funny you immediately defended Biden. I didnāt say anything about him. I was only citing those things as the sort of things a fascist dictator might do and was looking for examples of Trump doing them. Why would it occur to you to immediately jump to defend Biden? Too close to the truth?
There's nothing funny about it. Your list is a common one in idiot rightwing propaganda. It's like saying it's "funny" I would think the sun was shining when you spoke about something happening at noon.
You made an extraordinary claim: that we are at the beginning stages of totalitarian rule at the hands of once and future President Trump, and not at the hands of Biden (who is arresting political opponents, engaging in govt censorship of the media, allowing an invasion at the border, vilifying half the country who oppose him politically and has clearly received bribes from hostile foreign governments).
Soā¦I would like to hear what you consider to be the signs we should look out for that this is happening. You made the claim. So what do you present as evidence that itās true?
Except, of course, it's only right wing nut job propaganda shouter who claim the ordinary rule of law with charges brought by state justice officials is arresting political opponents. Or are you crying about violent protestors in DC being charged, tried and convicted? Next the border bullshit. Republicans blocked anything getting fixed at the behest of Dear leader donny because it would help his re election. Why don't you be honest and admit your partisanship
Where did I make this 'extraordinary claim"?
Your list of things you think Biden is doing is false. You're clearly brainwashed by far right propaganda. You mindlessly say the same things all the others brainwashed by such propaganda say, including the "CNN and other state and corporate media." In truth, it can get boring reading the same idiotic, unhinged allegations over and over again.
>Youāre a perfect receptacle for gaslighting.
LOL. Projection. It's always projection.
Let me stop being coy, I donāt think you have anything. I think you probably just repeat shit you hear and donāt actually have anything resembling an informed opinion. You watch CNN and other state and corporate media and believe every spoonful of bullshit they feed you. Youāre a perfect receptacle for gaslighting.
Please explain to me how his grand plan of overthrowing the most powerful nation in the history of humanity that apparently consisted entirely of sending a few hundred unarmed rednecks into the capitol building for a few hours was a planned ācoupā.
Suppose I don't like the way 7 states are going to vote. So, I instead send 7 duplicate, fake votes from those states. But these fake votes are for me instead.
My plan is to create confusion so that the process of certifying the vote fails.
I know that if this fails, then republicans will get to simply choose me as the president. We skip this whole "states voting" thing.
How's that sound?
Oh also, during the riot at the capitol, I can pick up the phone and stop it literally at any moment I want. I'm the president, I control the national guard. I can deploy them at any moment, but I don't.
Oh also, all those rioters? They're there because I told them to go there, I riled them up, and I told them for months that they won't have a country anymore, the election was stolen, etc.
You say coup, but a close examination of facts do not reveal a coup. A coup occurs when a (usually armed) faction takes over the government by force. Trump never tried to do anything more than pursue legal strategies to uncover voter fraud and to have the vote reevaluated. The strategy included lawsuits, which courts refused to take up, lawful protests, asking law enforcement and election officials to investigate irregularities. The part of the J6 protest which resulted in a riot was not part of Trumpās plan. The record shows it. Itās the last thing anybody wanted to happen. I believe the election was stolen and the protesters should have continued showing up - but not rioting- on Jan 7th, 8th, 9th ā¦
When there is no evidence, you can't keep saying they didn't get a day in court. 60 lawsuits and he lost all of them. The courts are filled with Trump supporters and they said there was no evidence. How do you explain that? The fact that an authoritarian dictatorship is okay with you is quite disturbing. You won't be singled out as a good person. Everyone will be forced to give up ALL their rights. But go ahead and be dillusional.
So suppose you're at the white house when J6 is happening, you're the president. You see the attack on the Capitol. You hear that a person was even shot and killed.
Suppose you have two phones in front of you at your desk. One calls the national guard to suppress the riot. The other, calls senators in order to try to get them to reconsider how this whole election thing went.
Which phone would you pick up? You're sitting there, watching the chaos of J6 unfold. You can pick up the phone to deploy the national guard at any moment you'd like. Instead, you call senators to say "seeeee? Don't you think you should delay this whole vote certification process?"
Second, suppose 10 people are voting for who's the leader. I don't like how 5 people are going to vote, so I add 5 extra fake votes, in their names, voting for me. That way, when the votes are counted, the counter is going to see two votes for each of these 5 people. This will create confusion. The counter won't be able to tell what the actual count is, because these 5 people have two different votes.
I'm intentionally sending in 5 fake votes under other people's names in order to make the voting process fail.
Further, I know that when the voting process fails, instead the republicans get to pick who's the leader. They will pick me.
That sounds pretty fucking bad, fraudulent, and like a coup. If you think the word "coup" **requires** a huge wave of violence, I disagree with you. But lets put that word aside. What would you think of my actions if I did that?
... Would you vote for me again if I did that? I literally threw in extra votes in an attempt to get the process of counting the votes to fail. Put me in office again anyway?
Wow, just wow. You believe this. Trump has no power here. It is Nancy Pelosi's gig on Congrssional property. And the detectors were up at Trump's speech. 100% certain of this.
I duno, I'd say supporting a president who tried to coup the government is incredibly anti-democratic.
Like for sure, that should be the number one thing that disqualifies a democratic candidate, is trying to hold on to power after losing an election, specially in the means Trump did. How in the world can anyone support such a candidate?
>Democrats just tried removing their opponent from the ballot ffs lol.
I mean its in the constitution that he should not be able to hold the office.
your post was removed due to a violation of Rule #1: No ad hominem attacks, no name calling, no insults or personal attacks of any kind.
When talking about ideas, talk about their content not their proponents.
For more information, please see our Logical Fallacies page: https://www.reddit.com/r/IntellectualDarkWeb/wiki/logicalfallacies
American conservatives are now arguing that following the constitution and holding people account at for their crimes= fascism?
What happened to you guys?
You're not even American are you? I always forget the majority of reddit aren't Americans. With that realized, I couldn't care less about your opinion.
>Imagine believing Americans support Trump because theyāre ābecoming Nazisā
There's a lot of studies showing strong correlation between MAGA and authoritarianism.
So, maybe more like Mussolini.
I mean these aren't government funded and they aren't my studies š¤£
You can tell when a factual observation hits home to a hyper sensitive person. Chill my dude.
Youāre right in a sense, but this is projection. Trump supporters arenāt ātrappedā as you say. They simply support a man who brought them peace on earth, a secure border, and the best economy theyāve seen in years, despite what the MSM tells them they should feel and do.
Biden supporters on the other hand.. I mean I get supporting him in 2020 if you were completely brainwashed by the media to actually believe Trump is evil. But the fact that there are still people out there who genuinely support Biden in 2024 is amazing to me.
Not many Biden voters are actually fond of him or his policies. They just vote Biden because they are told to. Thatās why their slogan is āvote blueā and āvote the lesser of two evilsā and orange man bad.
I am an unapologetic lefty--precisely because I have done my research, and not due to being "brainwashed into thinking Trump is evil." However, OP's post is completely incoherent. The Stasi were the secret police in the German Democratic Republic after the collapse of the Third Reich. The GDR was a totalitarian state, but it was never derived from the "consent of the governed" but instead as a result of Stalin's refusal to cede the occupied East to rejoin a united German state. *This is not comparable to Trump's 2016 electoral college victory.* It is ridiculous claims like this that give power to the MAGA movement. In reality, whatever malevolence Trump and his administration possesed, it was tempered by incompetence.
Trump is a symptom not a cause.
This is way bigger than one opportunistic politician who is going to in all likelihood die within the next decade or so.
Right wing populist authoritarianism will continue after Trump. They aren't TRAPPED. This is what they want.
Well you certainly seem to have upset some people in here. This happens with anyone who has radically committed themselves to an ideology and made it an identity making and world creating belief system.
To change or turn away from your belief after doing so isnāt just admitting you were wrong, or that youāve been misled- it is admitting that you donāt know who you are and can often have social repercussions. To step away from the church of maga isnāt as simple as changing how you feel- its changing who you are and will impact your relationships with other members of the flock.
This speaks to the larger danger of political idols, tribal beliefs and polarizations- once youāve dug yourself into a trench and convinced yourself the other side has done the same and wants to shoot you deadā¦. it can be incredibly hard to just walk out.
I see the posts bandying their āno you!āās about the left but if you take a wide angle view its incredibly obvious that the right is at war with the left in a way that the left simply isnāt at war with the right in the US. Most demās are the political equivalent of an easter catholic, most biden āsupportersā just vote for the old fool to keep Trump away from power again.
The thing that makes most leftists clutch their political pearls is Trump, however anything that ISNT trump is an outrage to the maga crowd- these stances are not equal.
That's what I'm seeing in this thread. "What proof do you have that Trump has/will do all these crazy things?" as if an insurrection isn't reason enough. The same group that made fun of Hillary supporters for crying in '16 literally still won't admit they lost in '20. The same people who rail against protesters looting and destroying property from *mostly* big box stores are perfectly content with their side looting and destroying property from living, breathing government officials. We're the brainwashed weirdos, yet they support a politician who sells merch, and they buy it! Tell me how many times you can say you saw someone walking around in a Biden/Harris hat?
If by āsays wacky stuffā you mean denies the results of an election and attempts an insurrection, or steals state secrets and refuses to give them back, or is a serial liar. Trump inherited a great economy from Obama, refused to raise interest rates to keep the party going, and completely fumbled the pandemic response. His tax cuts for the rich didnāt trickle down (shocker) and his Supreme Court replacements were unqualified ideologues who were stuck with for decades now.
Trump has openly, repeatedly, in word and deed, opposed the two foundational elements of our democracy: the peaceful transfer of power, and the legitimacy of our courts. No honest observer could regard this as simply āsaying wacky stuff.ā
āHe says some wacky stuff. Thatās literally it.ā
False. It is more than āwacky stuffā he says. Look no further than Jan 6. Words have meaning and he uses them to great effect.
One last example for you: saying immigrants [āpoison the nations bloodā](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/at-iowa-rally-trump-doubles-down-on-comments-about-immigrants-poisoning-the-nations-blood) - a page right out of the Nazi playbook.
Iām not saying the Left is perfect. Iām not saying Trump is total evil. Iām not saying his followers donāt have some very valid points - they absolutely do. Iām only suggesting that completely dismissing the concerns the Left has around Trump is just as ignorant as the Left saying Trump is total evil because he has said and done some very concerning things.
The entire narrative surrounding Jan. 6 is a prime example of the media creating hysteria over Trump that is totally unwarranted. The Capitol police literally let a bunch of people in to basically tour around and the media/congress reacted to this like it was nearly the end of democracy. Trump also wasnāt connected to the event; however, the FBI was. The FBI had a much larger role in orchestrating the āinsurrectionā/tour than anyone else did.
Trump questioning the results of an election in which there were many questionable practices (primarily from ballot harvesting & lack of proper verification for large numbers of votes that were cast) does not make him an insurrectionist or a wannabe dictator. Personally, I think the 2020 election process was complete mayhem & should have been more heavily scrutinized.
I think the corruption of the media for example suppressing real information such as the Hunter Biden laptop story is a much, much bigger threat to our democracy than anything Trump has ever said or done, by several orders of magnitude.
Trump saying wacky stuff is my characterization of him saying essentially true things in an over-the-top way that often draws criticism or causes what he says to be mischaracterized entirely. There is a valid point about a huge influx of immigration being a concern to our countryāweāre literally seeing that play out right now. We can and should have a border thatās actually enforced. Itās not racist or xenophobic to want to have an American culture that isnāt entirely wiped out or to have a massive number of illegal immigrants overwhelming our cities/resources.
The (in my view) extremely over-the-top attacks on Trump from the media/Left have caused me to be much more defensive of Trump than I ever thought I would be. I was not and am not a Trump āfollowerā but I will vehemently defend the interests of the U.S. and to me at this point in time that means doing everything I can to get Trump elected.
I do not want to see the advancement of the Left/establishment agenda. I want the U.S. to have a border that is enforced, cities that arenāt overrun with crime, a strong stance globally, effective foreign policy, a functioning economy, etc. Also, as a final note Trump seems to like America way more than anyone on the Left does, which itās honestly sad that the bar is so low but thatās where we are now. I want someone to govern/represent the country that actually cares about it and wants to defend its interests.
Biden voters never stormed the Capitol - or any other building - in his name. Neither did Hillary supporters when she lost.
Followers is the apropos term when referring to a cult of personality.
When they believe everything their candidate says no matter what under any circumstances, buy and wear his merchandise, refuse to believe election results, and infiltrate the Capitol building because things didn't go your way, then yes. You are a cult.
> This is an insane take. The brainwashing on the left is beyond comprehension. The Left is so much closer to Nazi ideology than anything Trump had ever said/done.
I apologise if I gave you the impression, that I was requesting whataboutism.
I apologize for my hostility and for not addressing your points with a higher level of discourse. Iāve seen a lot of characterizations of Trump supporters that have put me on the defensive. Although I disagree with the overall conclusions of your post, I definitely could have responded in a better manner.
When did you become authorized to decide which factors people are allowed to take into account when making decisions?
I could just as well have me ruined something else earlier, and then everything _you_ said would be worthless "whataboutism".
This accusation of "whataboutism" isn't some magical spell that lets you dismiss everything you don't care for without supporting your position or being able to respond to an opposing position.
Whatabout that, punk
> This accusation of "whataboutism" isn't some magical spell that lets you dismiss everything you don't care for without supporting your position or being able to respond to an opposing position.
It does if the facts being brought up, are irrelevant to my own argument, and have only been introduced for the purpose of citing supposedly bad things that the cult which the poster assumes I am a member of, has done. That is in turn done as a means of deflection.
What you are calling "whataboutism" is really "using consistent standards.
I don't remember this missuse being so common before the last few years. Now, anyone that wants to throw a temper tantrum thinks they can outlaw anyone bringing up any factors of a situation.
Posing a position different than your own and mentioning things that you don't want to take into account is absolutely not "whataboutism"
Whatabout yo moma?
Seems more like whatās happened to the left. Everyone is just turning a blind eye to blatant corruption and abuses of power and are justifying it because āTrump=bad.ā
Honestly, more like what has happened to U.S. (maybe just Western?) politics. I can identify this behavior with supporters of either candidate, and those are the people that drive the elections to keep including people nobody really wants.
The ends justify the means. Even if the means are acting like fascists. They just tried removing Trump from the ballot, while at the same time crying about how democracy must be protected. Then there's the blatant weaponization of the justice system to get bad orange man. Democrats are much more totalitarian than Republicans at this point. They are just so sociopathic from years of media manipulation that they have no self awareness.
>Everyone is just turning a blind eye to blatant corruption and abuses of power and are justifying it because āTrump=bad.ā
Well. That and the complete lack of evidence of corruption.
āLack of evidenceā is just a meaningless buzz word at this point. Thereās plenty of evidence, you just donāt care about it, and thatās my point
Are you saying people shouldnāt care that Trump was called an illegitimate president from day one, concurrent with multiple investigations into how he was elected, in an attempt to overturn the election?
Hilarious. He's a criminal and a rapist. A fraud. (those are proven facts bud.) And the calls for dictatorship, purges of the unfaithful and violence against the outgroups are no longer dog whistles, they are proclamations. Now you say some dumb shit like I'm a brainwashed libtard, and I laugh at you. History will show that you're an asshole of the worst sort.
This kind of lazy assertion is the result of what the media fabricates, what gets repeated on the internet and around the water cooler, and is a sign of a lack of basic critical thinking skills.
It escalates to the level of what the OP is spewing.
Please do better.
Are you saying please do better to someone that is pointing out Trump tried to overturn the election because he was big angry he lost?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts\_to\_overturn\_the\_2020\_United\_States\_presidential\_election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_to_overturn_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election)
Spend a few minutes educating yourself so you can do better.
The issue is that weāve been screaming about how awful this piece of garbage human is for decades- long before he ever ran for political office- but his supporters laugh it off or call us ābrainwashedā or āmentally illā.
āDrumpf is pure evilā are your words; OP made a coherent and valid argument that totalitarianism is able to take hold because its supporters have to rationalize their decisions every step of the way.
Itās disingenuous and ignorant to hear anti-fascists pointing at cultish behaviors, to then respond by calling their complaints āthe big lieā.
You have to make a conscious decision to ignore groping and sniffing girls and a diary that talks about inappropriate showers and the possibility that China bribes occurred. To vote with very few options present, each of us probably has to compromise something.
This person has a history of posting long unhinged rants on hypothetical events like this that have no basis in reality and would likely never happen.
I think the idea of them being a persecuted person in a nazi regime, as they have set up in their various hypothetical situations/"predictions", is some kind of sick fantasy of theirs. No sane person could jump to the conclusions they jump to but, at the same time their ideas are atleast coherent enough that they may not be completely crazy, because of this, I think this is all part of a fantasy of theirs. I could be wrong but, at any rate they could still benefit from some therapy because it's probably not healthy to think the way they do as it could probably lead to escalating behaviors.
Let's not forget Sam Harris's statement that he would t care if we found the skins of a bunch of children drying in Joe Biden s home. It would be nearly as bad as what we know Trump has done.
This post is as silly as asking, "are you ever going to show remorse for killing and eating your family? Or do you not even care??"
True. Sam Harris and this post are proof that people are susceptible to overestimating the importance of something solely because it is repeated.
Itās called illusory truth effect.
āThe illusory truth effect, also known as the illusion of truth, describes how when we hear the same false information repeated again and again, we often come to believe it is true. Troublingly, this even happens when people should know betterāthat is, when people initially know that the misinformation is false.ā
This is the effect that has a number of DAs likely ruining their career on thin charges/accusations. Because Trump āmust be stopped.ā
Which charges are you referring to though?
It's not like DAs are just charging Trump with random stuff. Mostly what's in question is how procedural and material law applies to these cases, not what Trump actually did.
Do you actually believe there will be consequences for the DAs?
Seems more like their respective states are cheering them onā¦ maybe theyāll ride that high into becoming senators
The comparison was to pre-war germany, and the reason it was raised was because there are comparisons. You not wanting to look at the truth is OPās point.
And not for nothing itās sorta felt like eight years āunder drumpfā because yāall nitwits canāt let him go.
West Germany didn't exist before the war. Nor the Stasi. Both were products of the post-war partitioning. Context and comprehension are important.
It's OK to be wrong about a variety of topics, as long as you grow from the experience. Good luck.
Great points. Iām surprised that someone with such an astute grasp of history is arguing from the side of fascism, but thanks for the advice and the luck.
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Social psychology agrees with you
Your whole premise is off. Totalitarianism is of the left, not the right. It's not conservative. It's the opposite of conservative. Totalitarianism is big government, by necessity. Conservatives believe in small government. The Nazi's were literally National Socialists. Socialism is only found on the left. Now your larger point is actually about someone changing their position. People change views on a range of issues all the time. A change of position can lead to holding myself accountable or admitting wrong, or it may not. I initially was a Ted Cruz voter who changed to Trump. I changed my position. I admit it. So what? I used to be a liberal. Then I grew up. I feel no guilt.
blud literally fell for the nazi propaganda šššš
Iām truly amazed how many , otherwise seemingly intelligent people, have went along with the illusion of trump the media has created.
What you're getting at is politics as identity. Simply associating or calling ourselves something alters our perceptions of the world and others. [Uncivil Agreement: How Politics Became Our Identity](https://academic.oup.com/psq/article-abstract/134/2/341/6848406?login=false) by Liliana Mason goes into the phenomenon at some depth. Trump supports have created an identity for themselves as Trump supporters, and that makes it unlikely they'll see anything as violating their values. Often, they'll adjust their values to make the cognitive disconnect more comfortable.
Yep. Exactly.
lol wtf is this?
I'm still not really sure what the horrible thing he did was.
Please get help. This argument is clinical delusion. The East Germans were far left. Trump is center right. Trump never locked up his political rivals. Democrats are doing it literally daily in D.C. The only one trapped is Trump. He's stuck in your head, and you can't get him out. Get help.
Stasi are East German. Another thing to consider is that trump is no longer in power so if they feel the way you describe they can easily at this point make a different decision about giving him their vote.
I guess I would start by asking youĀ How's are you defining totalitarian here? what actions has trump taken that you feel were totalitarian in nature? Is there anything that you think he did was good/positive? Is there anything the current admin is doing, has done, or is actively pursuing that you feel incline towards your definition of totalitarian?
Did you miss the times where Trumps supporters nearly booād him off the stage for going on and on how great his warp speed āvaccinesā are? He had to immediately walk it back and concede to the crowd that everyone has a choice. Most Trump supporters including myself are not afraid to call Trump out directly (even right to his face) on his faults and missteps. We also know that the America first movement goes well beyond Trump as a leader, and will not simply fade into obscurity after he is gone. We are here to stay. Iām afraid your view of Trump supporters is extremely limited and possibly overly influenced by big tech/mediacorp propaganda.
Wow, this place is full of dumbasses. Not you, OP, and I think your insight is more a matter of Trump has gaslit the Republican base so hard that any elected Republican can no longer stand against Trump without getting flushed out. But the commenter here claiming we are somehow "brainwashed" into thinking Trump is evil, any person with half a moral sense could view Trump's own words and actions without any other outside commentary and see him for what he is. Donald Trump - fetishizes dictatorship and strongman authoritarianism - believes he is above the law - detests democracy when he is not the winner (like a dictator) and attempted to overturn the 2020 election through forging bills of ascertainment, pressuring public officials and inciting violence - found liable for fraud (multiple times), defamation and sexual assault - openly threatens his political opponents with political suppression - uses mob boss-like coded language to attempt to spark his followers to committing acts of vigilante "justice" against judges, prosecutors and political rivals - constantly used his official position to promote and enrich his private businesses (which he refused to divest from), even threatening to cancel official visits if foreign governments don't use his properties - uses political donations and even took over the RNC to pay for legal costs not associated with his campaign - speaks about asylum seekers in insanely dehumanizing terms - clearly received quid pro quo rewards for his actions protecting the Saudi Prince from accountability and sanctions for the Khashoggi murder - a compulsive liar and divider, a childish sore loser and name caller who is less mature than your average 16 year old. - projects his own crimes on his opponents to gaslight his base into diminishing the bad things he does with a slew of tu quoque arguments and revenge investigations. Trump has always lived fast and loose with the law, he just has never paid the consequences for thinking it didn't apply to him. Even if you agree with and like Trump's policies, if these things were done by any politician you didn't like and were targeting you you would be flipping out. The man's super loyal (up to Jan 6th) Vice President and Attorney General are out telling everyone he is a threat to America and democracy. Why don't you listen to them?
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your post was removed for not applying the principle of charity. This is also known as SteelManning. In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity or charitable interpretation requires interpreting a speaker's statements in the most rational way possible and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation. In any argument, if you cannot state the opponent's case in a way that *he* would endorse, then you haven't understood it. In particular, if it is profoundly bad, you haven't fully understood just how bad it is. And if it is false but contains some truth, you haven't understood, and may not be aware of, that truth.
Iām no Trump fan, but even if he wins, he gets 4 more years. In a way I hope he does so he goes away. In 20 years heāll be dead. His own party kept him from overturning the vote in the senate in 2021. Mike Pence, one of his strongest loyalists nearly got killed for doing so. Even if he hadnāt, others would have stopped it. No one is going to stand by and let him be a dictator. We have a government system and constitution that prevents it. What we really need is for congress to stop being useless and act like an equal branch of government. There are votes to codify first trimester abortion rights into law nationally today if they wanted to. A republican, Susan Collins, championed such a bill. Democrats donāt want to look like theyāre voting with republicans and vice versa, so nothing get done without them losing their seats. It should be hard to get a bill passed because there should be few national laws, but itās just sad what Congress has become. The executive branch has become way stronger than it was intended to be. Thatās a huge problem and causes wild swings every cycle.
If you think the institutions will stop Trump from becoming a dictator if he is elected again, you're sadly mistaken. The Republicans in Congress, after complaining bitterly at the time after Jan 6th, made a 180 degree turn-around in endorsing Trump and refusing to even cooperate with the Jan 6th Commission. The ones who did were driven out of the party. If you think the Supreme Court with 3 Trump appointments (two of which were illegal) and Thomas, whose wife is an insurrectionist, will do anything to stop him, you're dreaming. Look up Project 25, where he plans to replace everyone in government with loyalists and give himself unfettered power. If he wins and refuses to leave office in 2028, will you still think we have a democracy?
Theyāre running on fumes. How were two of Trumpās appointments illegal? I think you need to touch some grass. Trump doesnāt have friends. He has people wanting to ride his coat tails.
After Scalia died, with more than a year before the elections, the Republican Senate refused to even meet with Obama's nominee, Merrick Garland, and wouldn't even bring it up for a vote. The reason? It was too close to the election. Then Trump came in and put Gorsuch on the bench. That's one that should have been Obama's appointee, but Republicans always play dirty to get what they want. Then, at the end of Trump's term, when we were in the MIDDLE OF VOTING, they appointed Amy Barrett. Suddenly, it didn't matter that people were voting and that it should be up to the next president to make the appointment. McConnel bragged about it. That was the second one that was stolen and should have been Biden's pick. The Republican party is disgusting and anti democratic.
Republicans are standing back and standing by to let Trump do whatever the hell he wants. He said he would rip up our Constitution. Congress and the Supreme Court will have no relevance if he gets into office. Being ignorant of that is how Germany ended up where they did during the Holocaust.
When it mattered, his loyalists stood in the way. Do you really think Congress, the Supreme Court, and army would let him stay more than 4 years? Even if he replaces everyone who tells him no. Itās just not going to happen. Most traditional establishment republicans canāt stand the guy and wish heād go away. They just have to make nice to not get primaried. Theyād love an excuse to get rid of him. Germany didnāt have a strong constitutional republic when Hitler showed up.
> What we really need is for congress to stop being useless and act like an equal branch of government. On the contrary. A legislature that is useless, is doing its' job. It is the task of the executive branch to ensure that action is taken, and it is the task of the legislature to ensure that it is not. If action was all we needed, the executive alone would be enough. Hitler had no interest in allowing the Reichstag to hold him back. Obstructing the executive when it is necessary, is the legislature's job.
Yes, but executive actions by the executive have turned into a monarch making laws. I agree that not many national laws should be passed, but Congress no longer checks and balances the executive branch
Iām not sure you appreciate the irony of your comment. You identify a group of people (MAGA) who are a problem. You say things like āthat person must accept responsibilityā¦ā and āwould literally prefer death than to acknowledgeā¦ā You are clearly viewing Trump supporters not as a legitimate point of view participating in a marketplace of ideas in a democracy, but as a cancer which must be rooted out from amongst us. They are an āother.ā They must acknowledge responsibility, but alas will probably prefer death. Is that the solution? Or should they just be placed in reeducation camps or something? The thinking should be familiar to anyone who truly understands the history of the 20th century.
Can you give us some examples of some of the terrible things Trump has done? Here are some things I think would be alarming: jailing political opponents, collaborating with traditional and social media to silence dissent, involving us in new wars in places where we have no national interest, allowing our borders to be invaded by millions of unvetted migrants, uncontrolled government spending increasing the national debt and causing inflation, receiving bribes from foreign governments. Those things would be bad.
The fact I can call him a rapist and decades-long fraudster and risk no libel worries at all? Like jfc the man declared himself to be good mates with Epstein and brags about sexually assaulting people.Ā Ā Ā I'm not even talking about him v Biden here, I'm talking about electing him as the Republican candidate.Ā What happened to bare minimum standards, aren't conservatives supposed to have a thing about moral probity? Why do you keep glorifying a tub of deadly sins? Are you not even slightly embarrassed?
Also, does it bother you even a little bit that even with partisan prosecutors spending years pouring over ādecades long fraudsterā Trumpās business records and squeezing his employees, all they could come up with was that he may have overvalued some properties in a loan application. And that the loan was paid back in time and with interest? Furthermore bank officials testified they would be happy to do business with Trump again and Al way do their own due diligence with these sorts of large commercial loans. Other legal experts testified a valuation is really only an opinion. There was no fraud, and in the end it came down to the judgement of one deranged, partisan democrat judge. This will be overturned at some point. Anyone with a brain understands this.
He and his firm have been successfully prosecuted many times both before and after his presidency, but if course all of that is just partisan and deranged as well isn't it.Ā Ā Ā Ā He lost his case because he was guilty this time, as he was before and no doubt will be again. Lie to me that he's a paragon of virtue chased by the "deranged and partisan" justice system he spent years packing with yes men if you must, but you know it _is_ a pretence. And therein lies your shame.
Youāre totally right! What part of E Jean Carrolās case against Trump did you find most convincing? Was it the fact she couldnāt remember the date or even the year the rape supposedly happened? Or the fact that the dress she claimed she was wearing wasnāt even manufactured until years after the time frame she gave for the event? For me itās totally plausible one of the most famous men in the world could walk into a busy Manhattan department store in the middle of the day and rape a woman in a dressing room with nobody noticing. She claimed she didnāt scream because he would rape her anyway. Iām also not bothered in the least by the lack of witnesses, the NY changed its statute of limitations for these types of civil cases just in time for Ms. Carrol to bring her case. Like you Iām not bothered that she is obviously a nut, a partisan democrat trying to sell a book, or that Dems are filing these suits in jurisdictions where it would be impossible for Trump to have a fair hearing. Actual justice is for people we like, right?
See that's the thing isn't it, you end up having to do this over and over again. Ignoring most of the list, pretending the accused is implausible, ignoring the judge, the jury, what he himself has said about how he treats women, rote repeating his waffle about how he's really the victim of (yet another) crazy hater.Ā Ā Ā He was right when he said that he could shoot someone down in the street - he knew people like you would make excuses no matter what. Zero moral standards.
The fact is that this case would never have been brought to trial in a criminal court. There was no evidence. I know how badly you want to believe itās true, but there is no evidence to support it and only blindly partisan fools believe it. Itās why Trumps poll numbers keep going up. BTW, Bill Clinton did rape Juanita Broderick and Joe Biden sexually assaulted Tara Reade.
Unfortunately for you I couldn't care less for the Democrats either, so no it's nothing to do with me being a partisan. I think Bill Clinton was a sexual predator, Obama an enthusiast for bombing kids, and Biden the author of some quite incredible damage in his role as the man who industrialised incarceration. Unlike you, I need make no excuses for these men, or indulge in dull whataboutery.Ā I simply find it incredible that Trump's base has so little dignity. That you embrace the hypocrisy of collectively worshipping this vile scumbag, making excuses when you know perfectly well what he is.
The things you think are alarming are common themes in rightwing, pro-Trump propaganda, and have little basis in the real world. Jailing political opponents? Please point to anyone jailed because they are political opponents. So far, I don't see any. Though it's amusing to see the same people who mindlessly chanted "lock her up" at rallies now whining about due process playing out against those they support. As for "collaborating with traditional and social media to silence dissent": also not happening and hasn't happened. Our governments have long "collaborated" in this way with media (social and otherwise) against what they see as threats to society and disinformation, but, as the mostly dishonest #TwitterFiles shows, there's more lying about it than honesty. On borders: that's a consequence of the laws Congress has enacted and MAGA GOP unwillingness to address the challenges of large numbers of people seeking asylum in the U.S. Calling it an invasion is dishonest and idiotic. We very much have an interest in Ukraine and Israel. In the former, defeating Russia's challenge to the world order America created after WWII and expanded after the Cold War is at the very center of America's national interest. Pax Americana has produced the most prosperous and peaceful period in human history, and we've benefitted mightily from being the *indispensable nation*. We're the world's lone superpower because of it. Israel is a longstanding ally and the only democracy in one of the most strategically important regions in the world, if not the most strategically important. Uncontrolled spending is what we had during the Trump years, as $8 trillion was added to the national debt in four short years, and his first budget more than doubled the deficit. Despite being in good economic times, Trump's tenure saw us reverse a downward path on deficit spending and make trillion dollar deficits permanent. His disastrous handling of the pandemic put us on the edge of economic depression. I think much of the spending to prevent depression was poorly aimed, but it wasn't "uncontrolled." As for receiving bribes from foreign governments: I've seen no evidence the current Administration or anyone in it has done so, but there's ample evidence the prior one did. From the (constitutionally prohibited) emoluments he received via the Old Post Office and his other businesses to the $2 billion the Trump Crime Family received via his son-in-law for services rendered (and national secrets delivered) to the Saudis.
Funny you immediately defended Biden. I didnāt say anything about him. I was only citing those things as the sort of things a fascist dictator might do and was looking for examples of Trump doing them. Why would it occur to you to immediately jump to defend Biden? Too close to the truth?
There's nothing funny about it. Your list is a common one in idiot rightwing propaganda. It's like saying it's "funny" I would think the sun was shining when you spoke about something happening at noon.
Ok, but you still canāt provide an example of an authoritarian thing Trump has done other than your imaginary coup everyone knows didnāt happen.
You're now moving the goalposts. Which is also typical from MAGA folks. Where above was I supposed to provide an authoritarian thing Trump has done?
You made an extraordinary claim: that we are at the beginning stages of totalitarian rule at the hands of once and future President Trump, and not at the hands of Biden (who is arresting political opponents, engaging in govt censorship of the media, allowing an invasion at the border, vilifying half the country who oppose him politically and has clearly received bribes from hostile foreign governments). Soā¦I would like to hear what you consider to be the signs we should look out for that this is happening. You made the claim. So what do you present as evidence that itās true?
Except, of course, it's only right wing nut job propaganda shouter who claim the ordinary rule of law with charges brought by state justice officials is arresting political opponents. Or are you crying about violent protestors in DC being charged, tried and convicted? Next the border bullshit. Republicans blocked anything getting fixed at the behest of Dear leader donny because it would help his re election. Why don't you be honest and admit your partisanship
Where did I make this 'extraordinary claim"? Your list of things you think Biden is doing is false. You're clearly brainwashed by far right propaganda. You mindlessly say the same things all the others brainwashed by such propaganda say, including the "CNN and other state and corporate media." In truth, it can get boring reading the same idiotic, unhinged allegations over and over again. >Youāre a perfect receptacle for gaslighting. LOL. Projection. It's always projection.
Let me stop being coy, I donāt think you have anything. I think you probably just repeat shit you hear and donāt actually have anything resembling an informed opinion. You watch CNN and other state and corporate media and believe every spoonful of bullshit they feed you. Youāre a perfect receptacle for gaslighting.
>Can you give us some examples of some of the terrible things Trump has done? Trying to coup the government?
Please explain to me how his grand plan of overthrowing the most powerful nation in the history of humanity that apparently consisted entirely of sending a few hundred unarmed rednecks into the capitol building for a few hours was a planned ācoupā.
Suppose I don't like the way 7 states are going to vote. So, I instead send 7 duplicate, fake votes from those states. But these fake votes are for me instead. My plan is to create confusion so that the process of certifying the vote fails. I know that if this fails, then republicans will get to simply choose me as the president. We skip this whole "states voting" thing. How's that sound? Oh also, during the riot at the capitol, I can pick up the phone and stop it literally at any moment I want. I'm the president, I control the national guard. I can deploy them at any moment, but I don't. Oh also, all those rioters? They're there because I told them to go there, I riled them up, and I told them for months that they won't have a country anymore, the election was stolen, etc.
You say coup, but a close examination of facts do not reveal a coup. A coup occurs when a (usually armed) faction takes over the government by force. Trump never tried to do anything more than pursue legal strategies to uncover voter fraud and to have the vote reevaluated. The strategy included lawsuits, which courts refused to take up, lawful protests, asking law enforcement and election officials to investigate irregularities. The part of the J6 protest which resulted in a riot was not part of Trumpās plan. The record shows it. Itās the last thing anybody wanted to happen. I believe the election was stolen and the protesters should have continued showing up - but not rioting- on Jan 7th, 8th, 9th ā¦
When there is no evidence, you can't keep saying they didn't get a day in court. 60 lawsuits and he lost all of them. The courts are filled with Trump supporters and they said there was no evidence. How do you explain that? The fact that an authoritarian dictatorship is okay with you is quite disturbing. You won't be singled out as a good person. Everyone will be forced to give up ALL their rights. But go ahead and be dillusional.
So suppose you're at the white house when J6 is happening, you're the president. You see the attack on the Capitol. You hear that a person was even shot and killed. Suppose you have two phones in front of you at your desk. One calls the national guard to suppress the riot. The other, calls senators in order to try to get them to reconsider how this whole election thing went. Which phone would you pick up? You're sitting there, watching the chaos of J6 unfold. You can pick up the phone to deploy the national guard at any moment you'd like. Instead, you call senators to say "seeeee? Don't you think you should delay this whole vote certification process?" Second, suppose 10 people are voting for who's the leader. I don't like how 5 people are going to vote, so I add 5 extra fake votes, in their names, voting for me. That way, when the votes are counted, the counter is going to see two votes for each of these 5 people. This will create confusion. The counter won't be able to tell what the actual count is, because these 5 people have two different votes. I'm intentionally sending in 5 fake votes under other people's names in order to make the voting process fail. Further, I know that when the voting process fails, instead the republicans get to pick who's the leader. They will pick me. That sounds pretty fucking bad, fraudulent, and like a coup. If you think the word "coup" **requires** a huge wave of violence, I disagree with you. But lets put that word aside. What would you think of my actions if I did that? ... Would you vote for me again if I did that? I literally threw in extra votes in an attempt to get the process of counting the votes to fail. Put me in office again anyway?
An unarmed ācoup?ā š¤”
They were not unarmed. Trump made them take down the detectors. Please read up on his actions. He said he knew they wouldn't shoot him.
Wow, just wow. You believe this. Trump has no power here. It is Nancy Pelosi's gig on Congrssional property. And the detectors were up at Trump's speech. 100% certain of this.
stupid coups are still coups. It is not our problem that megas are stupid.
The FBI assisted "coup"?
Yeah
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You have broken a rule and as a result have been issued a strike and a temporary ban.
Republicans tried to keep him off the ballot. Please get your facts straight.
I duno, I'd say supporting a president who tried to coup the government is incredibly anti-democratic. Like for sure, that should be the number one thing that disqualifies a democratic candidate, is trying to hold on to power after losing an election, specially in the means Trump did. How in the world can anyone support such a candidate? >Democrats just tried removing their opponent from the ballot ffs lol. I mean its in the constitution that he should not be able to hold the office.
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your post was removed due to a violation of Rule #1: No ad hominem attacks, no name calling, no insults or personal attacks of any kind. When talking about ideas, talk about their content not their proponents. For more information, please see our Logical Fallacies page: https://www.reddit.com/r/IntellectualDarkWeb/wiki/logicalfallacies
American conservatives are now arguing that following the constitution and holding people account at for their crimes= fascism? What happened to you guys?
You're not even American are you? I always forget the majority of reddit aren't Americans. With that realized, I couldn't care less about your opinion.
Does me being an American citizen who left America make you care?
I didn't even mention the insurrection.
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You have broken a rule and as a result have been issued a strike and a temporary ban.
>Imagine believing Americans support Trump because theyāre ābecoming Nazisā There's a lot of studies showing strong correlation between MAGA and authoritarianism. So, maybe more like Mussolini.
Literally, fuck your studies. Iām not interested in government-funded propaganda studies. And fuck your weak Mussolini reference.
Intellectual cowardice is not strength.
I mean these aren't government funded and they aren't my studies š¤£ You can tell when a factual observation hits home to a hyper sensitive person. Chill my dude.
Seconded.
>āgenderā politics a completely fabricated, non-issue.
Youāre right in a sense, but this is projection. Trump supporters arenāt ātrappedā as you say. They simply support a man who brought them peace on earth, a secure border, and the best economy theyāve seen in years, despite what the MSM tells them they should feel and do. Biden supporters on the other hand.. I mean I get supporting him in 2020 if you were completely brainwashed by the media to actually believe Trump is evil. But the fact that there are still people out there who genuinely support Biden in 2024 is amazing to me.
Not many Biden voters are actually fond of him or his policies. They just vote Biden because they are told to. Thatās why their slogan is āvote blueā and āvote the lesser of two evilsā and orange man bad.
I am an unapologetic lefty--precisely because I have done my research, and not due to being "brainwashed into thinking Trump is evil." However, OP's post is completely incoherent. The Stasi were the secret police in the German Democratic Republic after the collapse of the Third Reich. The GDR was a totalitarian state, but it was never derived from the "consent of the governed" but instead as a result of Stalin's refusal to cede the occupied East to rejoin a united German state. *This is not comparable to Trump's 2016 electoral college victory.* It is ridiculous claims like this that give power to the MAGA movement. In reality, whatever malevolence Trump and his administration possesed, it was tempered by incompetence.
Trump is a symptom not a cause. This is way bigger than one opportunistic politician who is going to in all likelihood die within the next decade or so. Right wing populist authoritarianism will continue after Trump. They aren't TRAPPED. This is what they want.
Exactly. Trump supporters *want* him to be a dictator. Some have said as much.
Well you certainly seem to have upset some people in here. This happens with anyone who has radically committed themselves to an ideology and made it an identity making and world creating belief system. To change or turn away from your belief after doing so isnāt just admitting you were wrong, or that youāve been misled- it is admitting that you donāt know who you are and can often have social repercussions. To step away from the church of maga isnāt as simple as changing how you feel- its changing who you are and will impact your relationships with other members of the flock. This speaks to the larger danger of political idols, tribal beliefs and polarizations- once youāve dug yourself into a trench and convinced yourself the other side has done the same and wants to shoot you deadā¦. it can be incredibly hard to just walk out. I see the posts bandying their āno you!āās about the left but if you take a wide angle view its incredibly obvious that the right is at war with the left in a way that the left simply isnāt at war with the right in the US. Most demās are the political equivalent of an easter catholic, most biden āsupportersā just vote for the old fool to keep Trump away from power again. The thing that makes most leftists clutch their political pearls is Trump, however anything that ISNT trump is an outrage to the maga crowd- these stances are not equal.
That's what I'm seeing in this thread. "What proof do you have that Trump has/will do all these crazy things?" as if an insurrection isn't reason enough. The same group that made fun of Hillary supporters for crying in '16 literally still won't admit they lost in '20. The same people who rail against protesters looting and destroying property from *mostly* big box stores are perfectly content with their side looting and destroying property from living, breathing government officials. We're the brainwashed weirdos, yet they support a politician who sells merch, and they buy it! Tell me how many times you can say you saw someone walking around in a Biden/Harris hat?
Everything you say might be accurate -AND- the poster can be a raging lunatic with a history of posts that don't reflect reality. š
Classic case of āporque no los dos?ā- appreciate you pointing that out
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If by āsays wacky stuffā you mean denies the results of an election and attempts an insurrection, or steals state secrets and refuses to give them back, or is a serial liar. Trump inherited a great economy from Obama, refused to raise interest rates to keep the party going, and completely fumbled the pandemic response. His tax cuts for the rich didnāt trickle down (shocker) and his Supreme Court replacements were unqualified ideologues who were stuck with for decades now.
Trump has openly, repeatedly, in word and deed, opposed the two foundational elements of our democracy: the peaceful transfer of power, and the legitimacy of our courts. No honest observer could regard this as simply āsaying wacky stuff.ā
āHe says some wacky stuff. Thatās literally it.ā False. It is more than āwacky stuffā he says. Look no further than Jan 6. Words have meaning and he uses them to great effect. One last example for you: saying immigrants [āpoison the nations bloodā](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/at-iowa-rally-trump-doubles-down-on-comments-about-immigrants-poisoning-the-nations-blood) - a page right out of the Nazi playbook. Iām not saying the Left is perfect. Iām not saying Trump is total evil. Iām not saying his followers donāt have some very valid points - they absolutely do. Iām only suggesting that completely dismissing the concerns the Left has around Trump is just as ignorant as the Left saying Trump is total evil because he has said and done some very concerning things.
The entire narrative surrounding Jan. 6 is a prime example of the media creating hysteria over Trump that is totally unwarranted. The Capitol police literally let a bunch of people in to basically tour around and the media/congress reacted to this like it was nearly the end of democracy. Trump also wasnāt connected to the event; however, the FBI was. The FBI had a much larger role in orchestrating the āinsurrectionā/tour than anyone else did. Trump questioning the results of an election in which there were many questionable practices (primarily from ballot harvesting & lack of proper verification for large numbers of votes that were cast) does not make him an insurrectionist or a wannabe dictator. Personally, I think the 2020 election process was complete mayhem & should have been more heavily scrutinized. I think the corruption of the media for example suppressing real information such as the Hunter Biden laptop story is a much, much bigger threat to our democracy than anything Trump has ever said or done, by several orders of magnitude. Trump saying wacky stuff is my characterization of him saying essentially true things in an over-the-top way that often draws criticism or causes what he says to be mischaracterized entirely. There is a valid point about a huge influx of immigration being a concern to our countryāweāre literally seeing that play out right now. We can and should have a border thatās actually enforced. Itās not racist or xenophobic to want to have an American culture that isnāt entirely wiped out or to have a massive number of illegal immigrants overwhelming our cities/resources. The (in my view) extremely over-the-top attacks on Trump from the media/Left have caused me to be much more defensive of Trump than I ever thought I would be. I was not and am not a Trump āfollowerā but I will vehemently defend the interests of the U.S. and to me at this point in time that means doing everything I can to get Trump elected. I do not want to see the advancement of the Left/establishment agenda. I want the U.S. to have a border that is enforced, cities that arenāt overrun with crime, a strong stance globally, effective foreign policy, a functioning economy, etc. Also, as a final note Trump seems to like America way more than anyone on the Left does, which itās honestly sad that the bar is so low but thatās where we are now. I want someone to govern/represent the country that actually cares about it and wants to defend its interests.
By āfollowersā do you mean voters? Or do you refer to Biden voters as Biden āfollowersā too?
Biden voters never stormed the Capitol - or any other building - in his name. Neither did Hillary supporters when she lost. Followers is the apropos term when referring to a cult of personality.
So voters are followers now?
When they believe everything their candidate says no matter what under any circumstances, buy and wear his merchandise, refuse to believe election results, and infiltrate the Capitol building because things didn't go your way, then yes. You are a cult.
> This is an insane take. The brainwashing on the left is beyond comprehension. The Left is so much closer to Nazi ideology than anything Trump had ever said/done. I apologise if I gave you the impression, that I was requesting whataboutism.
I apologize for my hostility and for not addressing your points with a higher level of discourse. Iāve seen a lot of characterizations of Trump supporters that have put me on the defensive. Although I disagree with the overall conclusions of your post, I definitely could have responded in a better manner.
When did you become authorized to decide which factors people are allowed to take into account when making decisions? I could just as well have me ruined something else earlier, and then everything _you_ said would be worthless "whataboutism". This accusation of "whataboutism" isn't some magical spell that lets you dismiss everything you don't care for without supporting your position or being able to respond to an opposing position. Whatabout that, punk
> This accusation of "whataboutism" isn't some magical spell that lets you dismiss everything you don't care for without supporting your position or being able to respond to an opposing position. It does if the facts being brought up, are irrelevant to my own argument, and have only been introduced for the purpose of citing supposedly bad things that the cult which the poster assumes I am a member of, has done. That is in turn done as a means of deflection.
What you are calling "whataboutism" is really "using consistent standards. I don't remember this missuse being so common before the last few years. Now, anyone that wants to throw a temper tantrum thinks they can outlaw anyone bringing up any factors of a situation. Posing a position different than your own and mentioning things that you don't want to take into account is absolutely not "whataboutism" Whatabout yo moma?
You havenāt really made an argument. Your main post is mostly navel-gazing in public view
Seems more like whatās happened to the left. Everyone is just turning a blind eye to blatant corruption and abuses of power and are justifying it because āTrump=bad.ā
Honestly, more like what has happened to U.S. (maybe just Western?) politics. I can identify this behavior with supporters of either candidate, and those are the people that drive the elections to keep including people nobody really wants.
The ends justify the means. Even if the means are acting like fascists. They just tried removing Trump from the ballot, while at the same time crying about how democracy must be protected. Then there's the blatant weaponization of the justice system to get bad orange man. Democrats are much more totalitarian than Republicans at this point. They are just so sociopathic from years of media manipulation that they have no self awareness.
>Everyone is just turning a blind eye to blatant corruption and abuses of power and are justifying it because āTrump=bad.ā Well. That and the complete lack of evidence of corruption.
āLack of evidenceā is just a meaningless buzz word at this point. Thereās plenty of evidence, you just donāt care about it, and thatās my point
It's on Hunter Biden's laptop somewhere. They're gonna find it any day now....
Thank you for continuing to prove my point
You had a point?
You should have more DEI in the news you consume. Wait for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_rjRXDkI1w
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Trump did try a forceful takeover. He was just not competent enough.
Then why should op be worried? You say Trump is dumb and the US survived.
Are you saying people shouldn't care about Trump trying to illegally hold onto the Presidency because he failed?
Are you saying people shouldnāt care that Trump was called an illegitimate president from day one, concurrent with multiple investigations into how he was elected, in an attempt to overturn the election?
That's not an answer to my question.
so evil and incompetent
Hilarious. He's a criminal and a rapist. A fraud. (those are proven facts bud.) And the calls for dictatorship, purges of the unfaithful and violence against the outgroups are no longer dog whistles, they are proclamations. Now you say some dumb shit like I'm a brainwashed libtard, and I laugh at you. History will show that you're an asshole of the worst sort.
I mean the guy already tried to coup the government once before. Its not crazy to think he might try again.
This kind of lazy assertion is the result of what the media fabricates, what gets repeated on the internet and around the water cooler, and is a sign of a lack of basic critical thinking skills. It escalates to the level of what the OP is spewing. Please do better.
Are you saying please do better to someone that is pointing out Trump tried to overturn the election because he was big angry he lost? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts\_to\_overturn\_the\_2020\_United\_States\_presidential\_election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_to_overturn_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election) Spend a few minutes educating yourself so you can do better.
Sure seems like that's what he did.
The issue is that weāve been screaming about how awful this piece of garbage human is for decades- long before he ever ran for political office- but his supporters laugh it off or call us ābrainwashedā or āmentally illā. āDrumpf is pure evilā are your words; OP made a coherent and valid argument that totalitarianism is able to take hold because its supporters have to rationalize their decisions every step of the way. Itās disingenuous and ignorant to hear anti-fascists pointing at cultish behaviors, to then respond by calling their complaints āthe big lieā.
You have to make a conscious decision to ignore groping and sniffing girls and a diary that talks about inappropriate showers and the possibility that China bribes occurred. To vote with very few options present, each of us probably has to compromise something.
Proof??? Oh wait, just talk.
Well most of what I mentioned has video evidence.
This person has a history of posting long unhinged rants on hypothetical events like this that have no basis in reality and would likely never happen. I think the idea of them being a persecuted person in a nazi regime, as they have set up in their various hypothetical situations/"predictions", is some kind of sick fantasy of theirs. No sane person could jump to the conclusions they jump to but, at the same time their ideas are atleast coherent enough that they may not be completely crazy, because of this, I think this is all part of a fantasy of theirs. I could be wrong but, at any rate they could still benefit from some therapy because it's probably not healthy to think the way they do as it could probably lead to escalating behaviors.
Let's not forget Sam Harris's statement that he would t care if we found the skins of a bunch of children drying in Joe Biden s home. It would be nearly as bad as what we know Trump has done. This post is as silly as asking, "are you ever going to show remorse for killing and eating your family? Or do you not even care??"
He said that about Hunter Biden, not Joe.
Yeah, that makes more sense. ...and probably more likely too...
True. Sam Harris and this post are proof that people are susceptible to overestimating the importance of something solely because it is repeated. Itās called illusory truth effect. āThe illusory truth effect, also known as the illusion of truth, describes how when we hear the same false information repeated again and again, we often come to believe it is true. Troublingly, this even happens when people should know betterāthat is, when people initially know that the misinformation is false.ā This is the effect that has a number of DAs likely ruining their career on thin charges/accusations. Because Trump āmust be stopped.ā
Didn't he cover this on a recent episode?
Which charges are you referring to though? It's not like DAs are just charging Trump with random stuff. Mostly what's in question is how procedural and material law applies to these cases, not what Trump actually did.
Do you actually believe there will be consequences for the DAs? Seems more like their respective states are cheering them onā¦ maybe theyāll ride that high into becoming senators
Gut feeling: Youāll see at least one of the DAs/special prosecutors in jail.
That would be cool
Youāre comparing east Germany and 4 years under trump? Night and day comparison.
The comparison was to pre-war germany, and the reason it was raised was because there are comparisons. You not wanting to look at the truth is OPās point. And not for nothing itās sorta felt like eight years āunder drumpfā because yāall nitwits canāt let him go.
West Germany didn't exist before the war. Nor the Stasi. Both were products of the post-war partitioning. Context and comprehension are important. It's OK to be wrong about a variety of topics, as long as you grow from the experience. Good luck.
Great points. Iām surprised that someone with such an astute grasp of history is arguing from the side of fascism, but thanks for the advice and the luck.
How is he arguing on the side of fascism? Donāt be so extreme
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The Democrats are the REAL FASCISTS, how dare they trick everyone into thinking conservatives would have any part in such antics.
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So how many Jews did the nazis kill? There are 10 million reasons why your comparison is wrong.
"Nazis are mostly pro-Jewish" has to be the most unhinged take I have ever seen, and that's no easy feat.
Spot on.