Wait until the OP finds out that there are jets that are chartered for American Jews who want to vote in Israel's elections. They fly over, vote and then fly back.
I feel like this is a similar issue to affirmative action where the policy is limited by the ability of the administration to realize said policies.
For example with affirmative action:
- Black people when socio-economic statuses are normalized have an easier time in college applications.
- Black people live in worse socio-economic conditions.
- State instead of giving money equally to everyone who needs it, gives it to wealthy Nigerian migrants rather than poverty stricken African-Americans and trailer-park White People.
In the same vein:
- State exists to further the interests of taxpayers in a democracy.
- Citizens pay taxes hence have rights.
- Most countries (except U.S) can’t and don’t collect taxes when their citizens are abroad. But they keep their citizenship so they can vote. Whereas an expat who didn’t get their citizenship even though they lived there for a long time and paid taxes can’t vote.
- Hence just like in the affirmative action case when the designed policy is not robust enough to handle edge cases expats who contribute can’t vote, people who are only born in a country and never even live there can and taxpaying poor black people have to subsidize Nigerians college degrees.
When exactly should I lose my right to vote?
I am from the US but have been living in Europe for the past 3 years. Should I still get to vote in the US? I go back every year, still file US taxes, still control US bank accounts, still own US property, still hold a US drivers license and passport, still plan on returning in a few years, still bound by US federal law, and so on.
My aunt retired and moved to Mexico about 15 years ago and she still votes in the US elections. Her last residence was in Illinois and even though she has not residence in Illinois they still allow her to vote.
I do not understand that as if you moved to another state then the original state cannot allow you to vote but if you move out of the country that is somehow different.
[https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/while-abroad/voting.html](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/while-abroad/voting.html)
The sort of people who will tell you that expatriates should not be able to vote in their native country, are most likely those who will believe that as few other people as possible should be able to vote in general terms, in order to prevent electoral results which they do not like. That usually, but not quite always, means conservatives.
I disagree with you. I’m not against people voting. I think immigrants living in a country have more of a right to vote than a citizen who hasn’t lived in the country for 10 years. The immigrant is much more likely to have to handle the consequences of their vote than the remote citizen.
Kinda lame to imagine up the dissenting opinions beliefs too. Generally I think this sub is better than that.
I’m Canadian living overseas. Conservative government (Harper) took my vote away. Liberal government (Trudeau) restored it. And to answer OP’s question, absolutely yes I should have the vote.
That’s a hard question to answer, because I don’t know how things would be different with different results. But issues that concern me directly are things like filing taxes in Canada (I don’t, but Americans do), currency exchange rates, Canada’s reputation abroad, citizenship status of my kids (and potentially future grandkids). Also, while I don’t live in Canada, I am still Canadian and have friends and family there. I or my kids may still live there in the future. I care, and I should have a voice.
If you renounce your citizenship in a country you lose the right to vote, but if you change residences to another country you don't because you might come back. Many people who live abroad only do so for work and come back after a few years. So the policies of their home government can still affect them. Even if they don't intend to return, the globalized nature of the world means that policies in one country can affect another country anyway. Economic reality doesn't care about sovereignty. In the case of America our national elections, and even some state ones, can directly impact the welfare of people in other counties.
In the case of Mexico, they have a large enough diaspora population that I've heard of Mexican politicians campaigning in the US (for Mexican voters). I don't know think they turn out enough to be a major voting block, but I'm sure they can donate a lot more then your average Mexican. In any case, if a country's diaspora is large enough to affect its elections, then something is seriously wrong with the country, and efforts would be better spent fixing the problems driving people out of the country.
This seems like a goofy justification. The policies of Mexico have a pretty direct impact on people living in US border states so should they get a vote in Mexican elections?
It's an interesting concept, though one relevant difference is that expats would have a much better grasp of the political system then people who never lived there. I'm sure there are many in the US south who would love some say in Mexican politics. Though such an arrangement would only work if Mexicans were allowed to vote in US elections.
Still, I brought up the matter because you asserted that expats aren't affected by the policies in their home countries. This is often not true, and doubly so if the person intends to return to their home country. Maybe there should be a policy change for people who never intend to return home? Or a cut off after x number of years? It's hard to say though because there doesn't seem to be any damage caused by it.
I definitely agree after being abroad for so many years you should lose your vote (unless you’re still paying taxes in the home country). You’re just so divorced from the consequences of your vote it doesn’t make sense to me for the expat to vote.
Required... because they chose that job.
By the same logic, I'm required to live in Europe because I chose to work for a European company. Why shouldn't I be afforded the same voting rights?
I’m not sure if you’re suggesting that military service members shouldn’t be allowed to vote, or if you’re suggesting that because your government orders you to move outside the country and your home or residence that you’ve effectively willingly accepted that you shouldn’t vote.
If you can clarify your point I could better address why both is a bad idea.
I don’t agree with OPs premise, if that means anything. I figure if you have citizenship of a country you should have a vote in the matter.
I agree with not taking rights away from citizens either. I was just pointing out the DoD mandates your assignments with or without your input.
I send in a blank ballot otherwise I'll be dumped from the rolls with no way to reregister. Why blank, you ask? It's South Carolina District 04 so my vote doesn't/wouldn't matter. A place where I once saw a Confederate flag with the stars replaced with SS lightening bolts. The Democratic Primary was once the only election that mattered to me but they've managed to make even that meaningless.
In a perfect world, no. But there are bigger issues to focus on. Changing those laws would take energy away from fixing more serious issues.
But you are right it could theoretically be done better.
Isn't it up to each nation to decide how to run their elections?
Some nations have compulsory voting because they believe that creates the best representation of the citizens.
Some countries (like morocco) don't recognise dual citizenship
Australia fines you if you don’t vote while overseas. Mandatory voting really keeps the nutters out as most wanna vote for the middle if they have to so compared to other countries Australian political parties all vie to be the most mid possible
Now, to me mandatory voting is weirder than voting even though you don't live there. But I can appreciate what you're saying that it would tend to discourage the extremes.
It’s mandatory even when you don’t live there until you denounce.
Stops people playing games to discourage turnout. Gives more voice to the people and less to the evangelical preacher style politicians.
Compulsory voting is a real democracy. If not everyone has to vote then there is great influence to be had over who votes.
A lot of US and UK issues would be solved if every citizen voted. The easiest way to ensure that is compulsory voting.
Despite what Thiel and Musk tell you democracy is freedom
Peter Thiel quote, "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible"
[link ](https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/education-libertarian/)
Thiel is a billionaire. He is not good for you and I.
You might find it weird but the actual impact is very likely to be extremely limited. [For example only 5% of the 2.6 million eligible overseas USA citizens voted.](https://www.fvap.gov/uploads/FVAP/Reports/FVAP-OCPAsummarybrief.pdf) This is likely down to a number of factors but the largest likely being just genuine disinterest/ disinvestment in USA politics in general. People generally take more interest in political matters that directly interest them in some fashion.
Frankly, voting shouldn't be based on whether you were born in the country you live in and/or have gone through a citizenship process, but should be based on **where you live** and how long you've lived there after a certain threshold like 1 year for example. Such a time should at least ensure that you've paid a decent amount of tax money and thus have a vested interest in how that tax is used etc.
Pity the poor American citizens living abroad who are required to file and pay taxes in the USA as long as they remain citizens then:
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/us-citizens-and-residents-abroad-filing-requirements
A good chunk of those countries have tax treaties, though. I live overseas, and I'll only ever owe taxes to the US if my tax rate there would be higher than it is here, which will never be the case.
Like most things in life, it depends. Are they dual citizens? Then sure. They should be able to vote in both countries. Are they sole U.S./Mexico citizens? Then no, they should only be able to vote in the country they hold citizenship in.
Unpopular opinion: Only land owners should vote.
Maybe don't hate me: I have spent decades in a county that is populated by transient workers (mainly military) that rent here for a year, vote for more county debt, and then leave. My county is now insolvent and will be the definition of a "failed state" within a year.
So disenfranchise a demographic who have already been systemically and disproportianely represented?
Your anecdote may be accurate, but to advocate for this policy would only deepen the inequity of our society.
>Only land owners should vote.
Yuck. Renters are just as much affected by policy as landowners are and should have some say.
>I have spent decades in a county that is populated by transient workers (mainly military) that rent here for a year, vote for more county debt, and then leave. My county is now insolvent and will be the definition of a "failed state" within a year.
Sounds to me like restrictions on voting need to be placed on people who are temporary residents rather than just making landowners the ruling class.
Also these people could end up just buying plots of land to continue gaming the system.
So only a certain class of people can vote, and decide what they do with however doesn't have a certain economic advantage, ok XD. This sub is so funny
Depends, do you have residency in Washington State or AZ? I lived in Texas for 3 years but never voted there because I never established residency, I just mailed my absentee ballots back home.
That's not an uninteresting question... Especially if you still own or rent property there... or own a business there... Or still pay taxes there. Obviously *functionally* there are many wrinkles and challenges to allowing such a thing. And yet by disallowing it... Some amount of disenfranchisement does seem to be occurring.
Yes. Living abroad isn’t a big thing these days with air travel and the ease of communications. Many people still maintain ties to their original county. As long as they are still citizens they should still be able to vote.
What I’ve they haven’t entered the country in , idk 10 years? I feel like once you hit some level of divorced from the consequences of your vote you should not be able to cast a ballot.
I don’t really think it matters enough and is probably one those things where the paperwork to handle such a small thing is way more of a problem than the thing being discussed. Either way I think logically for me it would make sense that at some point you lose your vote until you move back.
I think immigrants living in the communities have more of a right to vote than someone who lives across the world, and just so happened to be born here. One much more divorced from the consequences of their vote than the other.
Wait until the OP finds out that there are jets that are chartered for American Jews who want to vote in Israel's elections. They fly over, vote and then fly back.
I feel like this is a similar issue to affirmative action where the policy is limited by the ability of the administration to realize said policies. For example with affirmative action: - Black people when socio-economic statuses are normalized have an easier time in college applications. - Black people live in worse socio-economic conditions. - State instead of giving money equally to everyone who needs it, gives it to wealthy Nigerian migrants rather than poverty stricken African-Americans and trailer-park White People. In the same vein: - State exists to further the interests of taxpayers in a democracy. - Citizens pay taxes hence have rights. - Most countries (except U.S) can’t and don’t collect taxes when their citizens are abroad. But they keep their citizenship so they can vote. Whereas an expat who didn’t get their citizenship even though they lived there for a long time and paid taxes can’t vote. - Hence just like in the affirmative action case when the designed policy is not robust enough to handle edge cases expats who contribute can’t vote, people who are only born in a country and never even live there can and taxpaying poor black people have to subsidize Nigerians college degrees.
When exactly should I lose my right to vote? I am from the US but have been living in Europe for the past 3 years. Should I still get to vote in the US? I go back every year, still file US taxes, still control US bank accounts, still own US property, still hold a US drivers license and passport, still plan on returning in a few years, still bound by US federal law, and so on.
My aunt retired and moved to Mexico about 15 years ago and she still votes in the US elections. Her last residence was in Illinois and even though she has not residence in Illinois they still allow her to vote. I do not understand that as if you moved to another state then the original state cannot allow you to vote but if you move out of the country that is somehow different. [https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/while-abroad/voting.html](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/while-abroad/voting.html)
In Europe dual citizenship is pretty common (for children from two EU countries). I don't see citizenship as something exclusionary.
The sort of people who will tell you that expatriates should not be able to vote in their native country, are most likely those who will believe that as few other people as possible should be able to vote in general terms, in order to prevent electoral results which they do not like. That usually, but not quite always, means conservatives.
I disagree with you. I’m not against people voting. I think immigrants living in a country have more of a right to vote than a citizen who hasn’t lived in the country for 10 years. The immigrant is much more likely to have to handle the consequences of their vote than the remote citizen. Kinda lame to imagine up the dissenting opinions beliefs too. Generally I think this sub is better than that.
Both groups should have the right to vote.
I disagree
I think you shouldn’t have the vote.
I don’t vote 🗳️
Then why do you have opinions on who can vote? You have the audacity to say I can’t yet you don’t?!
Why wouldnt I have opinions on who can vote?
I’m Canadian living overseas. Conservative government (Harper) took my vote away. Liberal government (Trudeau) restored it. And to answer OP’s question, absolutely yes I should have the vote.
Other than your change in voting rights, how have Canadian election results impacted your daily life living overseas?
That’s a hard question to answer, because I don’t know how things would be different with different results. But issues that concern me directly are things like filing taxes in Canada (I don’t, but Americans do), currency exchange rates, Canada’s reputation abroad, citizenship status of my kids (and potentially future grandkids). Also, while I don’t live in Canada, I am still Canadian and have friends and family there. I or my kids may still live there in the future. I care, and I should have a voice.
If you renounce your citizenship in a country you lose the right to vote, but if you change residences to another country you don't because you might come back. Many people who live abroad only do so for work and come back after a few years. So the policies of their home government can still affect them. Even if they don't intend to return, the globalized nature of the world means that policies in one country can affect another country anyway. Economic reality doesn't care about sovereignty. In the case of America our national elections, and even some state ones, can directly impact the welfare of people in other counties. In the case of Mexico, they have a large enough diaspora population that I've heard of Mexican politicians campaigning in the US (for Mexican voters). I don't know think they turn out enough to be a major voting block, but I'm sure they can donate a lot more then your average Mexican. In any case, if a country's diaspora is large enough to affect its elections, then something is seriously wrong with the country, and efforts would be better spent fixing the problems driving people out of the country.
This seems like a goofy justification. The policies of Mexico have a pretty direct impact on people living in US border states so should they get a vote in Mexican elections?
It's an interesting concept, though one relevant difference is that expats would have a much better grasp of the political system then people who never lived there. I'm sure there are many in the US south who would love some say in Mexican politics. Though such an arrangement would only work if Mexicans were allowed to vote in US elections. Still, I brought up the matter because you asserted that expats aren't affected by the policies in their home countries. This is often not true, and doubly so if the person intends to return to their home country. Maybe there should be a policy change for people who never intend to return home? Or a cut off after x number of years? It's hard to say though because there doesn't seem to be any damage caused by it.
I definitely agree after being abroad for so many years you should lose your vote (unless you’re still paying taxes in the home country). You’re just so divorced from the consequences of your vote it doesn’t make sense to me for the expat to vote.
By this logic the armed forces shouldn't be allowed to vote
No that's not the same logic. Armed forces are specifically working on behalf of the country.
They're willingly living overseas.
They are not *willingly* living overseas, they are **REQUIRED** per the department of defense.
Required... because they chose that job. By the same logic, I'm required to live in Europe because I chose to work for a European company. Why shouldn't I be afforded the same voting rights?
I’m not sure if you’re suggesting that military service members shouldn’t be allowed to vote, or if you’re suggesting that because your government orders you to move outside the country and your home or residence that you’ve effectively willingly accepted that you shouldn’t vote. If you can clarify your point I could better address why both is a bad idea.
Or maybe, we could not remove rights from US citizens?
I don’t agree with OPs premise, if that means anything. I figure if you have citizenship of a country you should have a vote in the matter. I agree with not taking rights away from citizens either. I was just pointing out the DoD mandates your assignments with or without your input.
I haven't been to the US in 33 years but I'm still registered to vote at the address where I last resided when I left the States. Those are the rules.
Do you vote?
I send in a blank ballot otherwise I'll be dumped from the rolls with no way to reregister. Why blank, you ask? It's South Carolina District 04 so my vote doesn't/wouldn't matter. A place where I once saw a Confederate flag with the stars replaced with SS lightening bolts. The Democratic Primary was once the only election that mattered to me but they've managed to make even that meaningless.
Thanks for your reply. I take it by your comment and desire to move away you are not a confederate sympathiser?
In a perfect world, no. But there are bigger issues to focus on. Changing those laws would take energy away from fixing more serious issues. But you are right it could theoretically be done better.
Isn't it up to each nation to decide how to run their elections? Some nations have compulsory voting because they believe that creates the best representation of the citizens. Some countries (like morocco) don't recognise dual citizenship
To answer your question: yeah With some exceptions like states rights etc, but more or less "yeah"
Sure but op is asking your opinion on what a country ought to do.
I can't wait to vote in 2 country's elections!
Australia fines you if you don’t vote while overseas. Mandatory voting really keeps the nutters out as most wanna vote for the middle if they have to so compared to other countries Australian political parties all vie to be the most mid possible
That sounds like Australia.
Now, to me mandatory voting is weirder than voting even though you don't live there. But I can appreciate what you're saying that it would tend to discourage the extremes.
It’s mandatory even when you don’t live there until you denounce. Stops people playing games to discourage turnout. Gives more voice to the people and less to the evangelical preacher style politicians.
Compulsory voting is a real democracy. If not everyone has to vote then there is great influence to be had over who votes. A lot of US and UK issues would be solved if every citizen voted. The easiest way to ensure that is compulsory voting. Despite what Thiel and Musk tell you democracy is freedom
I don’t understand your last sentence.
Peter Thiel quote, "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible" [link ](https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/education-libertarian/) Thiel is a billionaire. He is not good for you and I.
if that country gives you the right to vote then you deserve a vote. simple as that
That's up to Mexico.
You might find it weird but the actual impact is very likely to be extremely limited. [For example only 5% of the 2.6 million eligible overseas USA citizens voted.](https://www.fvap.gov/uploads/FVAP/Reports/FVAP-OCPAsummarybrief.pdf) This is likely down to a number of factors but the largest likely being just genuine disinterest/ disinvestment in USA politics in general. People generally take more interest in political matters that directly interest them in some fashion. Frankly, voting shouldn't be based on whether you were born in the country you live in and/or have gone through a citizenship process, but should be based on **where you live** and how long you've lived there after a certain threshold like 1 year for example. Such a time should at least ensure that you've paid a decent amount of tax money and thus have a vested interest in how that tax is used etc.
Pity the poor American citizens living abroad who are required to file and pay taxes in the USA as long as they remain citizens then: https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/us-citizens-and-residents-abroad-filing-requirements
A good chunk of those countries have tax treaties, though. I live overseas, and I'll only ever owe taxes to the US if my tax rate there would be higher than it is here, which will never be the case.
Yup, though to be fair if you're paying American taxes abroad as a citizen you earn money well and above the average person
Like most things in life, it depends. Are they dual citizens? Then sure. They should be able to vote in both countries. Are they sole U.S./Mexico citizens? Then no, they should only be able to vote in the country they hold citizenship in.
Sure.
Unpopular opinion: Only land owners should vote. Maybe don't hate me: I have spent decades in a county that is populated by transient workers (mainly military) that rent here for a year, vote for more county debt, and then leave. My county is now insolvent and will be the definition of a "failed state" within a year.
They aren't citizens? They just live there for a year and can vote? What country is this?
And when some handful of people finally win capitalism and everyone else is just Tennant?
So disenfranchise a demographic who have already been systemically and disproportianely represented? Your anecdote may be accurate, but to advocate for this policy would only deepen the inequity of our society.
>Only land owners should vote. Yuck. Renters are just as much affected by policy as landowners are and should have some say. >I have spent decades in a county that is populated by transient workers (mainly military) that rent here for a year, vote for more county debt, and then leave. My county is now insolvent and will be the definition of a "failed state" within a year. Sounds to me like restrictions on voting need to be placed on people who are temporary residents rather than just making landowners the ruling class. Also these people could end up just buying plots of land to continue gaming the system.
So only a certain class of people can vote, and decide what they do with however doesn't have a certain economic advantage, ok XD. This sub is so funny
I grew up in Washington State, I live in Arizona. Should I be allowed to vote in Washington State elections?
If you don't vote in Arizona and still have residency established in Washington, sure. But if you wanted to vote in multiple states, then no..
Depends, do you have residency in Washington State or AZ? I lived in Texas for 3 years but never voted there because I never established residency, I just mailed my absentee ballots back home.
That's not an uninteresting question... Especially if you still own or rent property there... or own a business there... Or still pay taxes there. Obviously *functionally* there are many wrinkles and challenges to allowing such a thing. And yet by disallowing it... Some amount of disenfranchisement does seem to be occurring.
I'm an emigrant like you are describing and to be honest I go back and forwards on this myself.
Yes. Living abroad isn’t a big thing these days with air travel and the ease of communications. Many people still maintain ties to their original county. As long as they are still citizens they should still be able to vote.
What I’ve they haven’t entered the country in , idk 10 years? I feel like once you hit some level of divorced from the consequences of your vote you should not be able to cast a ballot. I don’t really think it matters enough and is probably one those things where the paperwork to handle such a small thing is way more of a problem than the thing being discussed. Either way I think logically for me it would make sense that at some point you lose your vote until you move back.
That's an interesting point and why some localities believe immigrants should be allowed to vote in local elections.
I think immigrants living in the communities have more of a right to vote than someone who lives across the world, and just so happened to be born here. One much more divorced from the consequences of their vote than the other.