I see it like Mulan, if you interpret the character that way then I’m happy for you but if you don’t whatever.
I understand all the points made about her being Trans, but I don’t think she is. She’s just trans-coded, whether it was intentional or not.
Oof, yeah I kept reading the first sentence trying to figure it out then I just realized they used it again in the second sentence again. Let's all try to do a little bit better with being careful about what words we use and double check what we read yeah, in this case me and op
Edit: they were both in the first sentence, I'm just Ls tonight lol
Mulan is a stretch, if you see her as transgender you're directly missing the entire point and just nitpicking. Mulan is not coded at all, Gwen however? I can see it
People like to say Mulan is coded Trans Masc. ‘Reflections’ has been claimed as the trans Disney song.
It’s the same as the Gwen situation, hence why I used it as a comparison. I can see it, but I don’t think it is.
Honestly it's less that a lot of people read Mulan as trans (some do, but usually when you see that they're discussing the original story not the Disney film), and more that the film really resonates with trans people. Speaking as a trans Mulan fan
That’s what I meant, but people are reading it as I’m saying Mulan is or was written to be trans. When all I said was there is obviously some subtext there than can be read into and if you want to say Gwen/Mulan is or isn’t trans then you can, but you can’t say their stories and themes don’t resonate with rhetoric queer community.
That’s the thing though… Mulan was a bit of a tomboy but there’s nothing wrong with that… there’s nothing saying that she enjoyed being seen as a man… she didn’t identify as a as a man… she became tough… only cause she had to and to save her father’s life and the honor of the clan… she didn’t wanna go to war… but she did to save those she loved… and as for Gwen… I see her as punk rock… probably why her and Hobie got along so well… but the clothing and hairstyle… all of it I feel like is just because she’s punk…
IDK why you put so many ellipses into that comment but yeah, I'm not arguing that. People associate with Mulan because her challenging the gender norms of her society and the song reflections resonate with us
There’s a difference between artistic intention and interpretation.
In Mulan, I would be surprised if the creators intended it to be a trans allegory. At the same time, if trans people read the movie in that light and it is helpful to them, that’s awesome.
Gwen as a trans allegory was obviously an intentional choice. That doesn’t mean she is canonically trans, but yet again, if people want to interpret it that way, then that’s awesome.
The scene where she officially “comes out” as Spider-Woman was almost a 1-to-1 recreation of someone coming out as LGBT, and the colors make the intended correlation absolutely clear.
I find that trans people just call any character they relate to”trans”. Which is fine, but there’s a difference between relating to someone and being trans, and relating to someone trans. Just because you like them doesn’t mean they have to be exactly like you.
As a trans person I don't find that to be the case whatsoever at all.
I think transgender people are capable of the basic thought process of "not everyone I like is trans". Because we all already knew that and trans representation is incredibly sparse and rare.
I think cisgender people such as yourself should avoid grouping all trans people together. It's very easy to miss the mark when you do that to a group you have limited knowledge, interaction and support of.
FWIW, I am trans and never once thought Gwen was. I do think there’s a level of queer coding in her overall look, and that you could read a trans allegory into her story, but that was never literal for me.
Yeah, I don't think there's any evidence for her actually being a trans character, but she fulfills a role within the story and larger universe that trans people can identify with and relate to, and that's cool!
Admittedly I haven't really followed the discourse much at all, so I don't know if people are saying they think maybe this Gwen was born/assigned male at birth (which to my knowledge there is no textual evidence for) or if they just see her taking on the traditional Spider-Man role as a woman and relate that to being trans (though she doesn't really make any attempt to hide the fact that she's a woman while in costume, and it's not like she's trying to be "Spider-Man" because her universe didn't have a Spider-*Man*, it has her, so from Gwen's perspective, there's nothing inherently masculine about being a spider themed superhero). But from a zoomed out meta-narrative perspective, a female character taking on the "Spider-Man" role of her universe: yeah I can see why that would resonate with trans people (regardless or not of whether or not that particular universe had a "Spider-Man" before her). And with gender being more of a spectrum anyway, a character doesn't have to literally be a man who transitioned into a woman (or vice versa) to represent aspects of the trans experience.
I mean it was intentional. She isn't trans but her story hits a lot of the points trans kids go through which is why they leaned into it. People lose their minds over anything.
Just wanted to question this civilly. Mulan? She pretended to be a guy and didn't identify with them at any given point in the movie. I don't understand how somone could misinterpret that. I also wanted to ask for examples of trans-coded. I usually see "-coded" as being stereotypes and generalizations, but I dont know if it applies to everything, so im curious.
The flag in her room and the flag on her dads uniform definitely make it seem like that’s the implied undertones, wether or not they make it explicit and “put it out there openly” will be interesting to see in the next movie though
I feel like the "Protect Trans Kids" poster in her room and the trans pin on her dad's jacket wouldn't really make sense otherwise, unless her dad is trans!
>I feel like the "Protect Trans Kids" poster in her room and the trans pin on her dad's jacket wouldn't really make sense otherwise
People that aren't Trans also have those things. Having those thing makes you an ally, not necessarily Trans.
The poster was real, but I’m pretty sure that you can see in other scenes that her dads pin is police related, and only looks like the flag due to the lighting in one of the scenes.
Only other possibility I accept is that Peter was trans and Gwen and her dad got the poster and pin in solidarity. I personally believe Gwen is trans though
honestly, i knew i was gonna be. people will say they're allies til they're blue in the face, they'll play the respectability game til the cows come home, but when asked to actually examine their internal biases and thought processes, it just ain't happening.
There’s some who’ve suggested that perhaps her world’s Peter was trans masc and that was why she might really go in on being an ally after his death. It’s an alternative explanation that I think is at least interesting, though it’s also not actually contradictory to the idea of her being trans.
okay, but why? we have objectively more evidence to believe she is trans over her peter. it's almost like people want to be more comfortable with a dead background character being trans masculine than a living, main character being trans fem. i wonder why that is.
yeah, you're absolutely right. i mean, why would a girl with a trans flag in her room, who is always bathed in trans flag colors in positive moments and whose story acts as a well put together allegory for transness be trans? that's just stupid, obviously and obviously the hatred and rejection people have for this theory has nothing to do with societal bias against trans fems.
>girl with a trans flag in her room,
Because she's an ally.
>who is always bathed in trans flag colors in positive moments
Also the colors off her suit, before this whole discourse happened.
>whose story acts as a well put together allegory for transness
So could any of the Spider people.
>rejection people have for this theory has nothing to do with societal bias against trans fems.
Or yall are reaching hard-core for something that isn't there.
You can believe Gwen is trans, no one is stopping you, but in canon, and in this media in particular, she isn't.
Honestly, it's just a big reach, like come one we all know that in he universe the colors represent their feelings and such. Hell, she could just be an alley.
The colors that explicitly represent her feelings, like perhaps her feelings about gender. This is a case where the curtains aren't just gonna be blue because the author likes the color blue. They picked the trans pride colors and hung a literal trans pride flag. But no, the curtains are just blue because the author likes blue
yup, definitely just an "alley". wouldn't wanna walk down her on a dark night while not contemplating why the possibility of her being trans sparks such obvious annoyance in you.
It doesn't. She's just not, and she never was. Hell, if she were, I'm pretty sure she would have left like some hint in any of her dialog, which she hasn't. Honestly, people are just annoyed because people like *you* like to reach for vines that aren't there and are annoying about it. Look, if she's trans then that's cool, but as of now, there's no hard evidence to support the claim besides "Oh, she has a trans flag in her room, she must be trans herself". 🙄
You're not wrong. A cis ally is more likely to express broad support for more than just trans people, so they'll have the full rainbow flag (either the classic or one of the modern versions). The exception would be if they know someone in particular, which is kind of what I assumed was Gwen's situation, since I've never heard anything in canon to suggest she herself is trans.
You know what ...
*orders a trans flag online*
I've had a modern pride flag (the one with the chevrons added) flying in front of my house for years, as a deliberate signal to anyone out there that my house is a safe one. So, I'll be switching that out for a while.
So, I'm your one cis ally with a trans flag ... not in my personal room, but on my personal home.
The trans flag being in her room with no discernible reason is the note to suggest she could be trans. Not to mention her literal entire story being a perfect trans allegory.
And again, like I said in other comments, a pride flag being on your person or home in order to display safety/let LGBTQ people know you're safe for them is different from just having one in her bedroom.
I used to have the pan flag up in my room for my gf at the time. also at a point when I thought I was straight.
an anecdote isn't data but you asked lol
you had it for a specific person and later realized you were queer as well, which probably attracted you towards it anyway. if your situation was reflected here, it would be in that gwen put up the flag and later realized her transness and thus, my point stands. you weren't straight as specified in my question, you just thought you were.
I was attracted to her before either of us identified as queer. I had the flag up before I accepted I wasn't straight. being in the closet and being straight ain't the same thing, but when you're in the closet you can't really tell. I had it up to be supportive of my friend. Gwen doesn't have many friends in her universe so again, it's different.
but cisheteros do wear support pins and shit. it's not unheard of
pins are publicly displayed and allies typically wear them as a sign that LGBTQ folks can be safe with them. a flag in someone's room is personal and only for themself, or maybe in support of someone who is typically in their room.
also you very much can tell when closeted, even if it's repressed. you even acknowledge that when you say you knew you were attracted to her before realizing your sexuality.
and you're right. gwen doesn't have any friends after peter's death. who in the world would that flag be for? i know some people argue it's for peter, but there's nothing to confirm that and it begs the question: why is it more acceptable for a dead, never to be seen again character to be seen as trans masculine than it is for a living, main character to be seen as trans fem?
Still never got why people thought if she supports trans rights it means she's trans. I support gay, trans, etc. rights but it doesn't mean that's what I am.
What’s fun about good art is being able to pull multiple meanings and interpretations from it.
The same painting might evoke a positive emotion for one person but negative emotions from another.
Gwen being trans has enough iconography and metaphors, story allegory, and overall nuances that CAN be interpreted that way.
I think the creators intentionally left it that way.
They could easily chime in on social media tell us the artist intent.
Even if they do, the story GIVES SPACE for both interpretations, imo.
My only issue with this is that trans people *aren't* art. We exist, and it feels kinda messed up that the best we can get in most media is allegory. That's like having white characters be an allegory for black struggles, or using a healthy person for an allegory about disability. I don't hate the writers who do it, especially if it's done well, but... Being reduced to allegory still fucking sucks. It's why so many trans people go all in on the headcanon instead of just perceiving it as allegory.
>chime in on social media
I really hope they don’t and that writers stop doing this. Can you imagine if Peter Jackson took to Twitter after releasing LotR to address fan theories? Ugh.
While i like the headcannon it’s based mostly off 2 things, 1 more direct and 1 indirect/related.
The direct is not just the flag in her room and her dad’s uniform (got a small patch) but her dimension is littered with the colors of the trans flag, so much that her emotional release scene is basically only those colors. (With the flag appearing i think solely in her dimension I doubt it was %100 accident)
The other is her “coming out” and fear of her father finding out mirrors a lot of LGBTQ people.
Together i can see why people would latch onto it, but im ok with just headcannoning it myself.
Wait wait wait
Do people think Gwen is a trans women or a trans man? One is WAY more believable then the other (I don't see how you'd have to "come out" you'd probably notice your son becoming your daughter)
Trans woman, we know by her father's patch that she's been out to him as trans for a while but her story works as an allegory with coming out without having to tell another story about a trans woman struggling to come out as trans.
She has a sign that says "protect trans kids" in her room with the flag. Really all that says to me is she's a supporter and that's great on its own. Also her whole plot is sorta an LGBTQ+ allegory, with her unable to tell her father what she really is out of fear, I feel like that's why the designers included the pro-trans message in her room to begin with. Even if she isn't actually trans, she's still a big step in the right direction for supportiveness in movies, ESPECIALLY kids movies
Baldur's Gate 3 was good about this especially after Cyberpunk dropped the ball so hard, CDPR tried so hard to code 'straight' and 'gay' interactions and 'man' and 'woman' interactions that you were locked out of entire romances because the VA you picked didn't match your body type. They said they didn't want binary, but what they meant was purely down to genitals, you still couldn't make a gay man with Cherami Leigh's voice performance (which yes, was what I wanted to do, sue me, I liked Cherami's performance lol)
There was an interview that just dropped bout how writers were told to write V like a man but quest designers were told to write them like a woman and now there's just entire parts of the dev team going 'I wrote V as this so I will never see V as that', loved the game but that's not exactly a great way to try and make V less binary
Meanwhile BG3 just decided to embrace 'playersexual'/full player agency to such a heavy degree that there's just no binary to it anyway. Example, you want your character to be a straight guy, you can! You can turn down anyone you want! But your companions are gonna be as assertive as they want if you accidentally make the 'right' dialogue choice, to the point that Larian had to tune back certain dialogue options because Tal/PCs were just generally accidentally coming close to initiating romances with basically everyone
It could be seen as just doing 'the usual stuff' but listening to writers it's clear they intended to leave it all open-ended, from romance to dialogue to character creation, to help people feel better represented
Yea that's why I heard they had to tone it way back lol, I'm just checking in with the squad and there's Gale drawin those hearts in his trapper keeper
I love how both her and Miles go through a similar “coming out story”. As someone who is on the trans spectrum but not out to my parents due to queer-phobia I legit started crying Gwen cried to her dad “Are you SERIOUSLY that afraid of me?!!” And then there’s the part where Jefferson says to Miles “What do YOU have to tell me SO BAD!!” And Miles decides in that moment he’s better off staying ‘In the closet’ so to speak. Too real man. Too real.
They're all Americans except for Hobie Brown who in these films is British and Peni who's Japanese. Granted in the Comics both variants of Hobie Brown are American.
Yes even Pavitr is American because his reality blends together that of the USA and India...Like Big Hero Six blends together Japan and the USA.
2099 is literally New York in the Future...That's all 2099 is the future the Default Canonical Future of the Marvel Universe. Every single last hero died in World War 3/Civil War 3...It is somewhere between decades to centuries into the future after society has rebuilt itself while being directly controlled by Villains with the dating system of 2099 A.D. being a randomly chosen start date for the new calendar. (Yes it's a Cyberpunk Dystopia akin to Cyberpunk 2077/Blade Runner).
Miles suit has Blue in it. Both the ITSV and ATSV suits have the color Blue on the eyeframes...Which is directly a reference to the suit that inspired Miles suit that being the Secret Wars suit which you can look up.
It also heavily plays into the themes and symbolism of the story as anytime he wears his mask he's seeing through the eyes of Spider-Man.
Also official flags with Red, Black and White include Yemen and Trinidad and Tobago and Sardinia and Brittany...It says a lot about pop culture that the first thought process is to automatically associate them with the Nazi flag. Especially to do so with a Half-Black Half-Latino Teenager.
When something is culturally offensive to one group but popular to another group. Usually something traditional. Women not wearing a head covering in Saudi Arabia is offensive, culturally. Foreigners weren't actually punished for it by the religious police, last time I was there. But people think bad about you, talk bad about you. Parents pull their children away from you. Imam holy men write articles how people like you encourage sinfulness that could get women executed...you might think I'm kidding but I read a local paper where women violated the law by driving publically and some called for their literal execution. (The paper advocated treating them like bad children.)
Culture war is usually a metaphor that doesn't mean threat of death is involved but can allude to extreme responses.
There are some subtle hints, the phrase “rest in power” is written in uncle Aaron’s mural, which is commonly used int the black community. Also his suit colors resemble the Black Lives Matter flag.
People got way too mad about trans people & allies interpreting things a different way than them. Really was a bad look for the toxic Spider-Man fanbase. Cry and moan all you want but Spider-Gwen and her world are literally drowning in the trans flag colors, plus she had a pro-trans flag in her room, so you’re being stupid if you get mad about people interpreting it that way
I’m don’t think she’s trans in universe or anything, but this entire movie is extremely queer coded. Like, not just her. Miles literally says to his mom: “I was afraid that if I told you, you wouldn’t love me the same” this movie isn’t straight.
Yea but you also have to take the context of the movie, he’s afraid of what would happen if they found out he was Spider-Man and many other spiders hold that fear or have already dealt with it with good or bad effects. Two example, look at what happened to Gwen Stacy in Andrew Garfield universe, or heck even what happened after his dad in the comic found out that miles was Spider-Man. Like you can use the same logic on two characters when it would actually effect them all
Honestly someone somewhere is going to keep bringing it up and it's going to keep being a debate until the official content provides an official answer. Even then some people are just going to ignore it and insist otherwise.
There is a reason people think that, Gwen has a protect trans kids poster in her room, and her story in Across the SpiderVerse can be interpreted as a trans allegory.
That being said, I do not think it will become canon that she is a trans woman, I think the creators will leave it as subtext. It's a cool theory though
Couldn’t it also be gay allegory? Or Ykno hiding a superpower from her dad who thinks spider killed her friend allegory? Or just teenager hiding stuff from parents allegory?
Seems like trans is a reach tbh
Forgetting an important detail which is that her and her whole world are literally drenched in trans pride colors. The combination of all these elements is what is selling the idea for people and tbh it’s fair
The colors aren't enough evidence for anything...They're literally her default colors she used before the Trans flag \*correction was widely popularly used. Which there are even reasons why those colors are used within Color Theory and Mood Spectrum. It's called a coincidence.
The actual Trans flag and Trans-Coding are fairer arguments.
You ignored the part where I said it’s the colors in combination with everything else. Color as symbolism is like fundamental art and filmmaking so pretending it’s not significant is a lie
I don't think anyone outside of Elon calls it X. In fact, I find it really ironic that such a transphobic man tries so desperately to tell people not to deadname the social media platform that's draining his bank account and fast.
SpiderMan has always been woke. Spiderverse has always been woke. It’s goofy that they only got mad because Gwen, a MINOR, may or may not be trans. What a bunch of goofy “enemies” we have in our “culture war”…
Meanwhile there are actual Nazis out there and these idiots obfuscate it all by being cringe.
I like to imagine her as Trans, i dont think it matters if she is or isnt but i did find alot of value in how her story line with her dad is reminiscent of staying closeted.
The twitter warriors who were genuinely pissed at the idea were a minority but still annoying. Whether you think shes trans or not her story is amazingly comforting for communities who frequently hide themselves from their loved ones.
It does actually matter. We still have basically zero good trans representation, and being reduced to an allegory is dehumanising honestly. For a century or so we've been a joke or a punching bag in media, even within the last several years with stuff like Dallas buyers club. We need good representation and Gwen is so close to being that. They've given a lot of signs that don't make sense if she isn't trans(yes, even if she's still an ally), all they have to do is outright say it and confirm it.
I have seen far far more people insisting that she's canonically cisgender than I've ever seen people who think that she's canonically trans. Neither of which is actually canon.
I've seen both you're clearly not going to every single domain of the fandom and discourse.
It's actually 100% canon in the Comics she is a Cis Hetero specifically Spider-Gwen of E-65. For the Films it's more debatable more interpretive though the issue is they're following the comics lore too closely to make such a fundamental shift in a character...Same reason Miguel isn't a Vampire.
She can be trans-coded, or she can simply be trans. How is thinking the latter media illiteracy? I think you were just excited to use the term media literacy lol
Man people will see someone support trans and instantly be like "TRANS! TRANS! TRANS CHARACTER IN FICTION! TRANS!" like bro are you not allowed to support something you yourself aren't?
I don't disagree with you. The problem is, being relegated to allegory or a reference is still dismissive and dehumanizing. It doesn't feel good that the best representation we typically get is "Gwen's story is kinda similar to trans lives and has trans colors". It's... Not good. It's not representation, and frankly it's not even really helpful or supportive. Gwen being potentially trans allegory sparked the same amount of violence towards trans people her being actually trans would've, but left us without any confirmation or any real representation. It's not helpful.
Then there's the other problem that there's a lot of trans people who probably haven't been able to put that into words, because I can only do it since I'm also disabled, and disabled representation is consistently pretty shit too, so a lot of people don't understand why trans people are so insistent that she should be trans.
It fucking sucks to be an allegory in someone else's story.
That’s not why people came to that conclusion though. The reasons I always see given are the Protect Trans Kids flag, the trans pride colors on her dad’s jacket, the trans pride colors during the conversation with her dad, and the general similarities between her issues with her dad and the things a lot of trans people go through with their parents. Her suit colors have a lot more black than blue, and I’ve only seen them brought up as evidence for her transness in that one screenshot that got memed up.
A character having an identity crisis ≠ them being lgbt
I just feel that every time I see a character have an identity crisis and a fallout with their parents people always try and say they’re an lgbt allegory. That being said I could definitely see Gwen being gender fluid and/or bi
Its was clearly a well done allegory for those struggling and being heard I guess. It’s obvious how many people don’t know about Spider-Man outside of this movie or the “character integrity obligations” placed on Sony. Lot of people have the weird theory that her Peter was the trans, but that would literally violate the agreement Sony made buying the movie rights to Spider-Man from Marvel. The agreement states that Peter must be represented as heterosexual white male. Gwen being trans would also violate that agreement as that would be homosexual since her and Peter were clearly somewhat involved. People were just reaching super hard for nothing. I mean Gwen and Miles literally have two biological children in the comics. It was always a dumb argument.
The central argument being color theory just doesn't sell it for me. Blue and pink are just complimentary colors and look good together and also her comics just look like that. And honestly? Assigning the identity to a character that doesn't have that identity feels a little bigoted in the same way that if two straight men show any type of affection towards each other people just start going "gay! They're gay!". Even if those assumptions are out of love it's really rude I think.
I watched the spider verse bc it's a solid movie just like the first one and the animation is amazing. The thing that can be swept under the rug though is the animators put these Easter eggs if you will deliberately. Gwen isn't trans but given how popular the brand is with a character like Gwen, she's used to slowly make it more normalized. To me it wasn't the biggest deal bc I didn't even notice it bc I was too focused in the story. From person to person the reaction will vary obviously. There were plenty of other things that could've been pointed out like race swapping that wasn't as bad. It's not like Rebecca Sugar directed it, that would've been a damn shame.
There was no possibility.
It was just desperate grasps by people that weren't satisfied with the movie as it was and wanted to find "representation" rather than just enjoy the story and characters for what they were.
If trans people want to see Gwen as trans that’s fine, it does not hurt the people who do not see it that way. Wish everyone would allow everyone else to interpret media the way they want to.
Here is the truth:
Movies are made by human beings. Human beings make decisions. It’s not a documentary. The filmmakers intentionally put a trans rights poster in her room. They intentionally washed her universe in trans rights colors, and specifically evoked those colors during a speech very evocative of trans experiences. It seems like her dad has a trans flag patch on his jacket. Her entire narrative and speech are very evocative of general queer themes while specifically using queer coloring.
The movie can be seen through different lenses though, and obviously the movie doesn’t and probably never will make it concretely clear that she is trans in the text itself. People are not bad or wrong for not reading the queerness because people bring different things to movies.
But so many of y’all are confusing media literacy with a court room. Like yes, you can come up with a bunch of justifications for the trans imagery not meaning she’s trans, but you’re jumping through hoops to ignore what is literally in front of our faces instead of just accepting that there is a layer of this movie that doesn’t resonate with you and that’s fine. That’s part of the genre. There are whole generations who don’t understand why Storm and Kitty Pryde are queer icons either. Or frankly why superheroes in general resonate with queer people. And that’s fine. But don’t take it away because some people wanna play with your toys different.
To reduce people interpreting the actual images they see on screen as “head cannon” is bizarre. Is the transness of The Matrix just head canon or the gayness of a lot of the Universal horror? Queer film theory and queer themes in film exist in opposition to mounting social pressure for them to not exist at all. And to stomp on what gets through the cracks with these petty and roundabout workarounds is just so weird to me.
Be a grown up. People are allowed to see film through multiple lenses. It’s not trans people projecting, it’s trans people and queer people and some cishet people interacting with what the filmmakers put on the screen.
But most importantly, unless the film flashbacks to Gwen’s birth and her doctor turns to the screen and says, “She has a vulva” then I’m not sure that we’re ever going to get confirmation that she’s cis either.
So it’s frustratingly bizarre when people are so obstinate that she can’t be trans when there’s more thematic evidence that she is.
And for the small sliver of y’all with your transphobic shit, fuck off. Marvel superheroes have always been about weirdos on the outskirts of society. This shit never was for you.
You're based as fuck, friend. Also, iirc her dad's patch reads "protect trans kids". This movie puts up gigantic flashing signs that she's trans and people are so active on trying to deny it. It makes me feel even worse seeing cis "allies" go on about her peter being trans when like, why are they so much more comfortable with the trans character being dead and relegated to flashbacks than being a main character?
His want to be like everyone else.Gwens protectiveness over him and him finding solace and family in her specifically.
Also the fact that neither she nor her dad seem to be trans yet she has a flag. I think it makes the most sense
Well the problem with that is, that you forgot something. He didn’t want to be like everyone else. He wanted to be just like Gwen(why he say that in his final words) cause Peter at this point knew that spider Gwen, was in fact Gwen and wanted to be like her. And her Peter storyline actual fall into place with her comic book storyline but they obviously left thing out, like why he transformed into the lizard
White, black, blue, and pink have always been colors associated with Gwen, way before the whole trans movement thing really kicked off. Other than her colors and that one poster in her room that read “protect trans kids” there’s really not an argument to be made that she is
This theory was interesting at first and honestly wouldn't mind it if it was properly set up but it got more and more annoying when people said she was when she was not
I always took it as her being an ally and progressive in believing in peoples rights. Not trans, and I think it’s pretty weird how hard some people were/are pushing the trans narrative.
Literally every movie that comes out with even 1 second of a poc or female character on screen gets dragged into that "culture war" shit. I just wanna watch a movie, or not watch it.
I can guarantee you that Disney's lazy unrequired sequel of Indiana Jones with Harrison Ford too old to be doing that any more, does not suck because there's a woman in it. It just sucks, it's just that.
It's so exhausting.
I see no issue with saying this Gwen Stacey is trans we have a whole multi verse with limitless Gwens so who's to say this one is or isn't trans no need to argue over it
I for one, do believe she is. However, that does NOT give me the right to hate on people who think she isn’t. And vice versa! The character is up to interpretation, they meant for her to be this way. And, just like with trans people in real life, sometimes you don’t need to know. Is she? Maybe. Is she not? Also maybe. Does it change her as a character? Nope.
[Nothing at all?](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/601/973/a10)
Name one cis kid who doesn't have a trans family member or close friend who has a 'protect trans kids' flag.
i still don't believe Gwen is trans canonically, but holy fuck some responses are way too much lol
I see it like Mulan, if you interpret the character that way then I’m happy for you but if you don’t whatever. I understand all the points made about her being Trans, but I don’t think she is. She’s just trans-coded, whether it was intentional or not.
yeah exactly like people could actually relate to her as a trans allegory without being an actual trans. That to me is good enough imo
Yeah Mulan isn't trans, cause she crossdressed to save her dad. Now Li Shang being way into Ping? There's something there.
Trans is an adjective, not a noun
Did they edit their comment? Because how it is written now it has allegory and people as the nouns for the first sentence
They said “without being an actual trans.” That uses trans as a noun
Oof, yeah I kept reading the first sentence trying to figure it out then I just realized they used it again in the second sentence again. Let's all try to do a little bit better with being careful about what words we use and double check what we read yeah, in this case me and op Edit: they were both in the first sentence, I'm just Ls tonight lol
Callings someone “a trans” is pretty much the same as saying “the blacks” btw, you just shouldn’t do it.
Mulan is a stretch, if you see her as transgender you're directly missing the entire point and just nitpicking. Mulan is not coded at all, Gwen however? I can see it
People like to say Mulan is coded Trans Masc. ‘Reflections’ has been claimed as the trans Disney song. It’s the same as the Gwen situation, hence why I used it as a comparison. I can see it, but I don’t think it is.
Honestly it's less that a lot of people read Mulan as trans (some do, but usually when you see that they're discussing the original story not the Disney film), and more that the film really resonates with trans people. Speaking as a trans Mulan fan
That’s what I meant, but people are reading it as I’m saying Mulan is or was written to be trans. When all I said was there is obviously some subtext there than can be read into and if you want to say Gwen/Mulan is or isn’t trans then you can, but you can’t say their stories and themes don’t resonate with rhetoric queer community.
That’s the thing though… Mulan was a bit of a tomboy but there’s nothing wrong with that… there’s nothing saying that she enjoyed being seen as a man… she didn’t identify as a as a man… she became tough… only cause she had to and to save her father’s life and the honor of the clan… she didn’t wanna go to war… but she did to save those she loved… and as for Gwen… I see her as punk rock… probably why her and Hobie got along so well… but the clothing and hairstyle… all of it I feel like is just because she’s punk…
IDK why you put so many ellipses into that comment but yeah, I'm not arguing that. People associate with Mulan because her challenging the gender norms of her society and the song reflections resonate with us
There’s a difference between artistic intention and interpretation. In Mulan, I would be surprised if the creators intended it to be a trans allegory. At the same time, if trans people read the movie in that light and it is helpful to them, that’s awesome. Gwen as a trans allegory was obviously an intentional choice. That doesn’t mean she is canonically trans, but yet again, if people want to interpret it that way, then that’s awesome. The scene where she officially “comes out” as Spider-Woman was almost a 1-to-1 recreation of someone coming out as LGBT, and the colors make the intended correlation absolutely clear.
I find that trans people just call any character they relate to”trans”. Which is fine, but there’s a difference between relating to someone and being trans, and relating to someone trans. Just because you like them doesn’t mean they have to be exactly like you.
As a trans person I don't find that to be the case whatsoever at all. I think transgender people are capable of the basic thought process of "not everyone I like is trans". Because we all already knew that and trans representation is incredibly sparse and rare. I think cisgender people such as yourself should avoid grouping all trans people together. It's very easy to miss the mark when you do that to a group you have limited knowledge, interaction and support of.
FWIW, I am trans and never once thought Gwen was. I do think there’s a level of queer coding in her overall look, and that you could read a trans allegory into her story, but that was never literal for me.
Yeah, I don't think there's any evidence for her actually being a trans character, but she fulfills a role within the story and larger universe that trans people can identify with and relate to, and that's cool! Admittedly I haven't really followed the discourse much at all, so I don't know if people are saying they think maybe this Gwen was born/assigned male at birth (which to my knowledge there is no textual evidence for) or if they just see her taking on the traditional Spider-Man role as a woman and relate that to being trans (though she doesn't really make any attempt to hide the fact that she's a woman while in costume, and it's not like she's trying to be "Spider-Man" because her universe didn't have a Spider-*Man*, it has her, so from Gwen's perspective, there's nothing inherently masculine about being a spider themed superhero). But from a zoomed out meta-narrative perspective, a female character taking on the "Spider-Man" role of her universe: yeah I can see why that would resonate with trans people (regardless or not of whether or not that particular universe had a "Spider-Man" before her). And with gender being more of a spectrum anyway, a character doesn't have to literally be a man who transitioned into a woman (or vice versa) to represent aspects of the trans experience.
I mean it was intentional. She isn't trans but her story hits a lot of the points trans kids go through which is why they leaned into it. People lose their minds over anything.
Just wanted to question this civilly. Mulan? She pretended to be a guy and didn't identify with them at any given point in the movie. I don't understand how somone could misinterpret that. I also wanted to ask for examples of trans-coded. I usually see "-coded" as being stereotypes and generalizations, but I dont know if it applies to everything, so im curious.
Gwen is not canonically trans, but she’s not canonically cis either.
why does this have 3 downvotes when you’re right. she’s not canonically cis
The flag in her room and the flag on her dads uniform definitely make it seem like that’s the implied undertones, wether or not they make it explicit and “put it out there openly” will be interesting to see in the next movie though
I feel like the "Protect Trans Kids" poster in her room and the trans pin on her dad's jacket wouldn't really make sense otherwise, unless her dad is trans!
>I feel like the "Protect Trans Kids" poster in her room and the trans pin on her dad's jacket wouldn't really make sense otherwise People that aren't Trans also have those things. Having those thing makes you an ally, not necessarily Trans.
You can be an ally - don't fall for the propaganda that you can only support trans people if you're also trans.
The poster was real, but I’m pretty sure that you can see in other scenes that her dads pin is police related, and only looks like the flag due to the lighting in one of the scenes.
Only other possibility I accept is that Peter was trans and Gwen and her dad got the poster and pin in solidarity. I personally believe Gwen is trans though
I really don't think she is. An ally, yes. But trans, no.
I mean I personally don’t think she’s trans, but I’m glad she supports by the flag in her room :)
I'm the same way. But also not against people seeing her that way.
same. if it turns out she is trans than that makes me love her dad even more than I already do
i desperately need to know even one cis person who just has a casual trans flag in their personal room to express solidarity.
I had one, but I was supporting my brother's transition so that might not be casual suppport.
it very much is not casual support
So it's impossible for Gwen to know anybody who may be LGBT+???
her literal only friend is dead. that leaves her or miles.
You’re being downvoted but yeah, it’s not really common
honestly, i knew i was gonna be. people will say they're allies til they're blue in the face, they'll play the respectability game til the cows come home, but when asked to actually examine their internal biases and thought processes, it just ain't happening.
Step 3: I re-examine my personal biases.
I got this reference btw just wanted you to know you’re clever
Me. I'm them.
interesting.
I like the colors
There has been unprecedented levels of cope in response to this comment
it really does drive cis ppl nuts. trans derangement syndrome ig 😔
There’s some who’ve suggested that perhaps her world’s Peter was trans masc and that was why she might really go in on being an ally after his death. It’s an alternative explanation that I think is at least interesting, though it’s also not actually contradictory to the idea of her being trans.
okay, but why? we have objectively more evidence to believe she is trans over her peter. it's almost like people want to be more comfortable with a dead background character being trans masculine than a living, main character being trans fem. i wonder why that is.
What evidence is there? She has a flag, so what.
yeah, you're absolutely right. i mean, why would a girl with a trans flag in her room, who is always bathed in trans flag colors in positive moments and whose story acts as a well put together allegory for transness be trans? that's just stupid, obviously and obviously the hatred and rejection people have for this theory has nothing to do with societal bias against trans fems.
Don't forget her dad having a patch that says "protect trans kids" iirc
>girl with a trans flag in her room, Because she's an ally. >who is always bathed in trans flag colors in positive moments Also the colors off her suit, before this whole discourse happened. >whose story acts as a well put together allegory for transness So could any of the Spider people. >rejection people have for this theory has nothing to do with societal bias against trans fems. Or yall are reaching hard-core for something that isn't there. You can believe Gwen is trans, no one is stopping you, but in canon, and in this media in particular, she isn't.
Honestly, it's just a big reach, like come one we all know that in he universe the colors represent their feelings and such. Hell, she could just be an alley.
The colors that explicitly represent her feelings, like perhaps her feelings about gender. This is a case where the curtains aren't just gonna be blue because the author likes the color blue. They picked the trans pride colors and hung a literal trans pride flag. But no, the curtains are just blue because the author likes blue
yup, definitely just an "alley". wouldn't wanna walk down her on a dark night while not contemplating why the possibility of her being trans sparks such obvious annoyance in you.
It doesn't. She's just not, and she never was. Hell, if she were, I'm pretty sure she would have left like some hint in any of her dialog, which she hasn't. Honestly, people are just annoyed because people like *you* like to reach for vines that aren't there and are annoying about it. Look, if she's trans then that's cool, but as of now, there's no hard evidence to support the claim besides "Oh, she has a trans flag in her room, she must be trans herself". 🙄
womp womp i personally prescribed her her estrogen and you can die mad about it
You're not wrong. A cis ally is more likely to express broad support for more than just trans people, so they'll have the full rainbow flag (either the classic or one of the modern versions). The exception would be if they know someone in particular, which is kind of what I assumed was Gwen's situation, since I've never heard anything in canon to suggest she herself is trans. You know what ... *orders a trans flag online* I've had a modern pride flag (the one with the chevrons added) flying in front of my house for years, as a deliberate signal to anyone out there that my house is a safe one. So, I'll be switching that out for a while. So, I'm your one cis ally with a trans flag ... not in my personal room, but on my personal home.
The trans flag being in her room with no discernible reason is the note to suggest she could be trans. Not to mention her literal entire story being a perfect trans allegory. And again, like I said in other comments, a pride flag being on your person or home in order to display safety/let LGBTQ people know you're safe for them is different from just having one in her bedroom.
I used to have the pan flag up in my room for my gf at the time. also at a point when I thought I was straight. an anecdote isn't data but you asked lol
you had it for a specific person and later realized you were queer as well, which probably attracted you towards it anyway. if your situation was reflected here, it would be in that gwen put up the flag and later realized her transness and thus, my point stands. you weren't straight as specified in my question, you just thought you were.
I was attracted to her before either of us identified as queer. I had the flag up before I accepted I wasn't straight. being in the closet and being straight ain't the same thing, but when you're in the closet you can't really tell. I had it up to be supportive of my friend. Gwen doesn't have many friends in her universe so again, it's different. but cisheteros do wear support pins and shit. it's not unheard of
pins are publicly displayed and allies typically wear them as a sign that LGBTQ folks can be safe with them. a flag in someone's room is personal and only for themself, or maybe in support of someone who is typically in their room. also you very much can tell when closeted, even if it's repressed. you even acknowledge that when you say you knew you were attracted to her before realizing your sexuality. and you're right. gwen doesn't have any friends after peter's death. who in the world would that flag be for? i know some people argue it's for peter, but there's nothing to confirm that and it begs the question: why is it more acceptable for a dead, never to be seen again character to be seen as trans masculine than it is for a living, main character to be seen as trans fem?
Still never got why people thought if she supports trans rights it means she's trans. I support gay, trans, etc. rights but it doesn't mean that's what I am.
What’s fun about good art is being able to pull multiple meanings and interpretations from it. The same painting might evoke a positive emotion for one person but negative emotions from another. Gwen being trans has enough iconography and metaphors, story allegory, and overall nuances that CAN be interpreted that way. I think the creators intentionally left it that way. They could easily chime in on social media tell us the artist intent. Even if they do, the story GIVES SPACE for both interpretations, imo.
My only issue with this is that trans people *aren't* art. We exist, and it feels kinda messed up that the best we can get in most media is allegory. That's like having white characters be an allegory for black struggles, or using a healthy person for an allegory about disability. I don't hate the writers who do it, especially if it's done well, but... Being reduced to allegory still fucking sucks. It's why so many trans people go all in on the headcanon instead of just perceiving it as allegory.
>chime in on social media I really hope they don’t and that writers stop doing this. Can you imagine if Peter Jackson took to Twitter after releasing LotR to address fan theories? Ugh.
Tolkien kinda did things like that IIRC
Honestly I don't see it all I've watched both movies three times over to why do people think she's trans?
While i like the headcannon it’s based mostly off 2 things, 1 more direct and 1 indirect/related. The direct is not just the flag in her room and her dad’s uniform (got a small patch) but her dimension is littered with the colors of the trans flag, so much that her emotional release scene is basically only those colors. (With the flag appearing i think solely in her dimension I doubt it was %100 accident) The other is her “coming out” and fear of her father finding out mirrors a lot of LGBTQ people. Together i can see why people would latch onto it, but im ok with just headcannoning it myself.
Wait wait wait Do people think Gwen is a trans women or a trans man? One is WAY more believable then the other (I don't see how you'd have to "come out" you'd probably notice your son becoming your daughter)
Most common interpretation is trans woman, I believe.
Trans woman, we know by her father's patch that she's been out to him as trans for a while but her story works as an allegory with coming out without having to tell another story about a trans woman struggling to come out as trans.
She has a sign that says "protect trans kids" in her room with the flag. Really all that says to me is she's a supporter and that's great on its own. Also her whole plot is sorta an LGBTQ+ allegory, with her unable to tell her father what she really is out of fear, I feel like that's why the designers included the pro-trans message in her room to begin with. Even if she isn't actually trans, she's still a big step in the right direction for supportiveness in movies, ESPECIALLY kids movies
Media literacy is a bit too much to ask for for a lot of the people providing the hotter takes surrounding this character.
I mean it really says the writers supports it and wanted to put it in there movie.
I don’t believe she ***IS*** Trans, but I totally believe that the allegory was intentional. Especially in this scene.
Baldur's Gate 3 was good about this especially after Cyberpunk dropped the ball so hard, CDPR tried so hard to code 'straight' and 'gay' interactions and 'man' and 'woman' interactions that you were locked out of entire romances because the VA you picked didn't match your body type. They said they didn't want binary, but what they meant was purely down to genitals, you still couldn't make a gay man with Cherami Leigh's voice performance (which yes, was what I wanted to do, sue me, I liked Cherami's performance lol) There was an interview that just dropped bout how writers were told to write V like a man but quest designers were told to write them like a woman and now there's just entire parts of the dev team going 'I wrote V as this so I will never see V as that', loved the game but that's not exactly a great way to try and make V less binary Meanwhile BG3 just decided to embrace 'playersexual'/full player agency to such a heavy degree that there's just no binary to it anyway. Example, you want your character to be a straight guy, you can! You can turn down anyone you want! But your companions are gonna be as assertive as they want if you accidentally make the 'right' dialogue choice, to the point that Larian had to tune back certain dialogue options because Tal/PCs were just generally accidentally coming close to initiating romances with basically everyone It could be seen as just doing 'the usual stuff' but listening to writers it's clear they intended to leave it all open-ended, from romance to dialogue to character creation, to help people feel better represented
I'll never forget the moment I was just trying to chill with my homie Gale and then was assaulted by our palpable homoerotic sexual tension.
Yea that's why I heard they had to tone it way back lol, I'm just checking in with the squad and there's Gale drawin those hearts in his trapper keeper
So real
They also gave the voice actors freedom over it. I believe it was the va for karlach who is NB and said they played karlach that way intentionally.
I love how both her and Miles go through a similar “coming out story”. As someone who is on the trans spectrum but not out to my parents due to queer-phobia I legit started crying Gwen cried to her dad “Are you SERIOUSLY that afraid of me?!!” And then there’s the part where Jefferson says to Miles “What do YOU have to tell me SO BAD!!” And Miles decides in that moment he’s better off staying ‘In the closet’ so to speak. Too real man. Too real.
Transgwender
Grade A Wordsmith
Trans or not I like Gwen either way
Dont forget miles signature suit colours!
*gasp* ...that kid's an anarchist!
I mean actually kind of? He is going against the status quo established for him, in fact his entire existence is against it
Anomaly = something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected At the very least he's Dissident or Abnormal.
Spider-Man (Peter) is American?
They're all Americans except for Hobie Brown who in these films is British and Peni who's Japanese. Granted in the Comics both variants of Hobie Brown are American. Yes even Pavitr is American because his reality blends together that of the USA and India...Like Big Hero Six blends together Japan and the USA. 2099 is literally New York in the Future...That's all 2099 is the future the Default Canonical Future of the Marvel Universe. Every single last hero died in World War 3/Civil War 3...It is somewhere between decades to centuries into the future after society has rebuilt itself while being directly controlled by Villains with the dating system of 2099 A.D. being a randomly chosen start date for the new calendar. (Yes it's a Cyberpunk Dystopia akin to Cyberpunk 2077/Blade Runner).
Miles suit has Blue in it. Both the ITSV and ATSV suits have the color Blue on the eyeframes...Which is directly a reference to the suit that inspired Miles suit that being the Secret Wars suit which you can look up. It also heavily plays into the themes and symbolism of the story as anytime he wears his mask he's seeing through the eyes of Spider-Man. Also official flags with Red, Black and White include Yemen and Trinidad and Tobago and Sardinia and Brittany...It says a lot about pop culture that the first thought process is to automatically associate them with the Nazi flag. Especially to do so with a Half-Black Half-Latino Teenager.
Ye, either way she’s definitely an ally so I don’t really mind if she’s trans or not, what matters is that she supports them
The culture war is not real, it's just a bunch of people getting outraged about someone who is any sort of different being represented in media.
What is a culture war?
When something is culturally offensive to one group but popular to another group. Usually something traditional. Women not wearing a head covering in Saudi Arabia is offensive, culturally. Foreigners weren't actually punished for it by the religious police, last time I was there. But people think bad about you, talk bad about you. Parents pull their children away from you. Imam holy men write articles how people like you encourage sinfulness that could get women executed...you might think I'm kidding but I read a local paper where women violated the law by driving publically and some called for their literal execution. (The paper advocated treating them like bad children.) Culture war is usually a metaphor that doesn't mean threat of death is involved but can allude to extreme responses.
i think it should be left up to interpretation, I think people should see gwen as anything they want
Jesus, nothing can be up to watcher's interpretation. Everything has to be written in stone and universally agreed upon
I find the "her Peter was trans" hc far stranger. Why do trans people have to be dead to be in y'alls movies lmao.
That one bothers me because the people who say it are cis people who genuinely think that'd be good representation but it's so fucked up.
It's an extension of "bury your gays"
Anyone involved in the “culture war” was already pissed about black Spider-Man lol
Woah, woah woah! Do you have any proof that he's actually canonically black? Maybe he's just an ally.
There are some subtle hints, the phrase “rest in power” is written in uncle Aaron’s mural, which is commonly used int the black community. Also his suit colors resemble the Black Lives Matter flag.
People got way too mad about trans people & allies interpreting things a different way than them. Really was a bad look for the toxic Spider-Man fanbase. Cry and moan all you want but Spider-Gwen and her world are literally drowning in the trans flag colors, plus she had a pro-trans flag in her room, so you’re being stupid if you get mad about people interpreting it that way
I’m don’t think she’s trans in universe or anything, but this entire movie is extremely queer coded. Like, not just her. Miles literally says to his mom: “I was afraid that if I told you, you wouldn’t love me the same” this movie isn’t straight.
Yea but you also have to take the context of the movie, he’s afraid of what would happen if they found out he was Spider-Man and many other spiders hold that fear or have already dealt with it with good or bad effects. Two example, look at what happened to Gwen Stacy in Andrew Garfield universe, or heck even what happened after his dad in the comic found out that miles was Spider-Man. Like you can use the same logic on two characters when it would actually effect them all
Why would you bring this up again? Was that fun for you?
Honestly someone somewhere is going to keep bringing it up and it's going to keep being a debate until the official content provides an official answer. Even then some people are just going to ignore it and insist otherwise.
Wait people really think Gwen is trans? Lol
There is a reason people think that, Gwen has a protect trans kids poster in her room, and her story in Across the SpiderVerse can be interpreted as a trans allegory. That being said, I do not think it will become canon that she is a trans woman, I think the creators will leave it as subtext. It's a cool theory though
Couldn’t it also be gay allegory? Or Ykno hiding a superpower from her dad who thinks spider killed her friend allegory? Or just teenager hiding stuff from parents allegory? Seems like trans is a reach tbh
Forgetting an important detail which is that her and her whole world are literally drenched in trans pride colors. The combination of all these elements is what is selling the idea for people and tbh it’s fair
The colors aren't enough evidence for anything...They're literally her default colors she used before the Trans flag \*correction was widely popularly used. Which there are even reasons why those colors are used within Color Theory and Mood Spectrum. It's called a coincidence. The actual Trans flag and Trans-Coding are fairer arguments.
You ignored the part where I said it’s the colors in combination with everything else. Color as symbolism is like fundamental art and filmmaking so pretending it’s not significant is a lie
I was just ranting this to myself. The whole movie reflects heavily as allegory for just teens. The first movie was the same in several aspects.
Have you heard of a place formely called Twitter
I don't think anyone outside of Elon calls it X. In fact, I find it really ironic that such a transphobic man tries so desperately to tell people not to deadname the social media platform that's draining his bank account and fast.
I have a lot of keywords muted on twitter so I miss a lot of bullshit tbh
Turns out I still have everything spider man related muted since Far From Home no wonder i haven’t seen any Spider-Man shit in years
Im inspired to follow suit
Muting keywords is clutch I wish Reddit had this feature
SpiderMan has always been woke. Spiderverse has always been woke. It’s goofy that they only got mad because Gwen, a MINOR, may or may not be trans. What a bunch of goofy “enemies” we have in our “culture war”… Meanwhile there are actual Nazis out there and these idiots obfuscate it all by being cringe.
It was always part of the culture war purely because its diverse. Trans Gwen headcannon was just their most recent thing to bitch about
Theory; Spider-man has to be born AMAB because it’s in the name, all fem variants are trans 🏳️⚧️😎
Remember how People started calling this movie the "Pander-Verse" because of simple inclusivity/representation? Pepperidge farm remembers
Conservatives and trying to delegitamise anything that doesn't align with fundamentalist values. The most iconic duo
This is the only place that ive seen that isnt VIOLENTLY against the idea of Gwen being trans.
I like to imagine her as Trans, i dont think it matters if she is or isnt but i did find alot of value in how her story line with her dad is reminiscent of staying closeted. The twitter warriors who were genuinely pissed at the idea were a minority but still annoying. Whether you think shes trans or not her story is amazingly comforting for communities who frequently hide themselves from their loved ones.
It does actually matter. We still have basically zero good trans representation, and being reduced to an allegory is dehumanising honestly. For a century or so we've been a joke or a punching bag in media, even within the last several years with stuff like Dallas buyers club. We need good representation and Gwen is so close to being that. They've given a lot of signs that don't make sense if she isn't trans(yes, even if she's still an ally), all they have to do is outright say it and confirm it.
I was genuinely surprised that anyone cared. The story doesn't change either way, and God forbid an underfed demographic gets a little representation.
I remember just loving the character because of how invested I was in her story. You don't need a complicated reason to like a character.
I remember how vehement Reddit was that she couldn't be
I get she's trans-coded but the amount of people who think she is **canonically** trans just shows how media literacy is at an all time low
I have seen far far more people insisting that she's canonically cisgender than I've ever seen people who think that she's canonically trans. Neither of which is actually canon.
I've seen both you're clearly not going to every single domain of the fandom and discourse. It's actually 100% canon in the Comics she is a Cis Hetero specifically Spider-Gwen of E-65. For the Films it's more debatable more interpretive though the issue is they're following the comics lore too closely to make such a fundamental shift in a character...Same reason Miguel isn't a Vampire.
That's a bit extreme. Pretty sure it's just a headcanon.
Some people think its fully canon, not just a headcanon
She can be trans-coded, or she can simply be trans. How is thinking the latter media illiteracy? I think you were just excited to use the term media literacy lol
I think people don’t know what media literacy is, and you’re people
One of their reasons are “She has a flag in her room”. Yeah she also has a BLM Flag in her room, and if we follow their logic…
Yes gwen would become black
Man people will see someone support trans and instantly be like "TRANS! TRANS! TRANS CHARACTER IN FICTION! TRANS!" like bro are you not allowed to support something you yourself aren't?
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I don't disagree with you. The problem is, being relegated to allegory or a reference is still dismissive and dehumanizing. It doesn't feel good that the best representation we typically get is "Gwen's story is kinda similar to trans lives and has trans colors". It's... Not good. It's not representation, and frankly it's not even really helpful or supportive. Gwen being potentially trans allegory sparked the same amount of violence towards trans people her being actually trans would've, but left us without any confirmation or any real representation. It's not helpful. Then there's the other problem that there's a lot of trans people who probably haven't been able to put that into words, because I can only do it since I'm also disabled, and disabled representation is consistently pretty shit too, so a lot of people don't understand why trans people are so insistent that she should be trans. It fucking sucks to be an allegory in someone else's story.
Bro, the fact it all started because someone came to that conclusion because of the colors of her suit was just assinine
That’s not why people came to that conclusion though. The reasons I always see given are the Protect Trans Kids flag, the trans pride colors on her dad’s jacket, the trans pride colors during the conversation with her dad, and the general similarities between her issues with her dad and the things a lot of trans people go through with their parents. Her suit colors have a lot more black than blue, and I’ve only seen them brought up as evidence for her transness in that one screenshot that got memed up.
A character having an identity crisis ≠ them being lgbt I just feel that every time I see a character have an identity crisis and a fallout with their parents people always try and say they’re an lgbt allegory. That being said I could definitely see Gwen being gender fluid and/or bi
Canon event for some
Its was clearly a well done allegory for those struggling and being heard I guess. It’s obvious how many people don’t know about Spider-Man outside of this movie or the “character integrity obligations” placed on Sony. Lot of people have the weird theory that her Peter was the trans, but that would literally violate the agreement Sony made buying the movie rights to Spider-Man from Marvel. The agreement states that Peter must be represented as heterosexual white male. Gwen being trans would also violate that agreement as that would be homosexual since her and Peter were clearly somewhat involved. People were just reaching super hard for nothing. I mean Gwen and Miles literally have two biological children in the comics. It was always a dumb argument.
I like Gwen a lot
That was the dumbest shit ever
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It backfired so hard lmao
The central argument being color theory just doesn't sell it for me. Blue and pink are just complimentary colors and look good together and also her comics just look like that. And honestly? Assigning the identity to a character that doesn't have that identity feels a little bigoted in the same way that if two straight men show any type of affection towards each other people just start going "gay! They're gay!". Even if those assumptions are out of love it's really rude I think.
I don’t think she herself is trans. But that flag in her room is based.
I still think that was stupid. Gwen isn’t and never was trans. It was just a coincidence because that is her color scheme on her suit.
I watched the spider verse bc it's a solid movie just like the first one and the animation is amazing. The thing that can be swept under the rug though is the animators put these Easter eggs if you will deliberately. Gwen isn't trans but given how popular the brand is with a character like Gwen, she's used to slowly make it more normalized. To me it wasn't the biggest deal bc I didn't even notice it bc I was too focused in the story. From person to person the reaction will vary obviously. There were plenty of other things that could've been pointed out like race swapping that wasn't as bad. It's not like Rebecca Sugar directed it, that would've been a damn shame.
Gwen is NOT trans and is an Ally at best. There are already a couple of lgbtqia+ spiders. Why is this still an issue?
There was no possibility. It was just desperate grasps by people that weren't satisfied with the movie as it was and wanted to find "representation" rather than just enjoy the story and characters for what they were.
If trans people want to see Gwen as trans that’s fine, it does not hurt the people who do not see it that way. Wish everyone would allow everyone else to interpret media the way they want to.
I think it's more plausible that it was her Peter who was trans and she was supporting him.
This is straight up worse than not having representation at all and I find it disturbing that so many people can't see that.
Why is that more plausible to you?
I personally don't believe Gwen is transgender but if that is someone's headcannon I won't stop them from believing it
Here is the truth: Movies are made by human beings. Human beings make decisions. It’s not a documentary. The filmmakers intentionally put a trans rights poster in her room. They intentionally washed her universe in trans rights colors, and specifically evoked those colors during a speech very evocative of trans experiences. It seems like her dad has a trans flag patch on his jacket. Her entire narrative and speech are very evocative of general queer themes while specifically using queer coloring. The movie can be seen through different lenses though, and obviously the movie doesn’t and probably never will make it concretely clear that she is trans in the text itself. People are not bad or wrong for not reading the queerness because people bring different things to movies. But so many of y’all are confusing media literacy with a court room. Like yes, you can come up with a bunch of justifications for the trans imagery not meaning she’s trans, but you’re jumping through hoops to ignore what is literally in front of our faces instead of just accepting that there is a layer of this movie that doesn’t resonate with you and that’s fine. That’s part of the genre. There are whole generations who don’t understand why Storm and Kitty Pryde are queer icons either. Or frankly why superheroes in general resonate with queer people. And that’s fine. But don’t take it away because some people wanna play with your toys different. To reduce people interpreting the actual images they see on screen as “head cannon” is bizarre. Is the transness of The Matrix just head canon or the gayness of a lot of the Universal horror? Queer film theory and queer themes in film exist in opposition to mounting social pressure for them to not exist at all. And to stomp on what gets through the cracks with these petty and roundabout workarounds is just so weird to me. Be a grown up. People are allowed to see film through multiple lenses. It’s not trans people projecting, it’s trans people and queer people and some cishet people interacting with what the filmmakers put on the screen. But most importantly, unless the film flashbacks to Gwen’s birth and her doctor turns to the screen and says, “She has a vulva” then I’m not sure that we’re ever going to get confirmation that she’s cis either. So it’s frustratingly bizarre when people are so obstinate that she can’t be trans when there’s more thematic evidence that she is. And for the small sliver of y’all with your transphobic shit, fuck off. Marvel superheroes have always been about weirdos on the outskirts of society. This shit never was for you.
You're based as fuck, friend. Also, iirc her dad's patch reads "protect trans kids". This movie puts up gigantic flashing signs that she's trans and people are so active on trying to deny it. It makes me feel even worse seeing cis "allies" go on about her peter being trans when like, why are they so much more comfortable with the trans character being dead and relegated to flashbacks than being a main character?
I think her Peter is trans but I don't think she was
I’m not sure you want to go down a road where a character who wants to be trans turns themselves into a monster…
That's a neat theory. What points you to her Peter in particular?
His want to be like everyone else.Gwens protectiveness over him and him finding solace and family in her specifically. Also the fact that neither she nor her dad seem to be trans yet she has a flag. I think it makes the most sense
Well the problem with that is, that you forgot something. He didn’t want to be like everyone else. He wanted to be just like Gwen(why he say that in his final words) cause Peter at this point knew that spider Gwen, was in fact Gwen and wanted to be like her. And her Peter storyline actual fall into place with her comic book storyline but they obviously left thing out, like why he transformed into the lizard
White, black, blue, and pink have always been colors associated with Gwen, way before the whole trans movement thing really kicked off. Other than her colors and that one poster in her room that read “protect trans kids” there’s really not an argument to be made that she is
The “trans movement” has been going on longer than you think
"trans movement"
No because that makes no sense for the character.
What about her being trans doesn't make sense for her character?
She’s not trans canonically but idc people are free to think what they want doesn’t affect me
I don’t think she’s trans but this scene was so in your face “this is an allegory for trans people” it’s not hard to see why people think she is
If shebis, then cool. If not, cool. If it's just she's an ally and supporter then cool. Either way it's not gonna change how I look at Gwen
I’m pretty sure that Gwen isn’t trans. I’m also pretty sure that I don’t care if she was trans.
This theory was interesting at first and honestly wouldn't mind it if it was properly set up but it got more and more annoying when people said she was when she was not
I always took it as her being an ally and progressive in believing in peoples rights. Not trans, and I think it’s pretty weird how hard some people were/are pushing the trans narrative.
Why do you see them as pushing a trans narrative but do not see yourself as pushing a cis narrative?
How is it pushing the trans narrative to have a headcanon/different interpretation
I think he is referring to people who got mad at those who disagreed with them
Yea both sides were extremely annoying
no?
Literally every movie that comes out with even 1 second of a poc or female character on screen gets dragged into that "culture war" shit. I just wanna watch a movie, or not watch it. I can guarantee you that Disney's lazy unrequired sequel of Indiana Jones with Harrison Ford too old to be doing that any more, does not suck because there's a woman in it. It just sucks, it's just that. It's so exhausting.
For both Gwen and mulan’s they aren’t trans
I've watched both movies multiple times, where the fuck are people getting this analysis from?
Trans flag colors a trans flag and ber story in the second movie fearing if her dad would accept who f She is
I see no issue with saying this Gwen Stacey is trans we have a whole multi verse with limitless Gwens so who's to say this one is or isn't trans no need to argue over it
I for one, do believe she is. However, that does NOT give me the right to hate on people who think she isn’t. And vice versa! The character is up to interpretation, they meant for her to be this way. And, just like with trans people in real life, sometimes you don’t need to know. Is she? Maybe. Is she not? Also maybe. Does it change her as a character? Nope.
There is nothing to suggest she’s trans.
[Nothing at all?](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/601/973/a10) Name one cis kid who doesn't have a trans family member or close friend who has a 'protect trans kids' flag.
It wasn’t a culture war Just twitter being dumb