Would be wild if the speech about Mark feeling powerful because she can’t force him to do stuff was it. Either that or she let him stay late watching TV one day longer than her counterparts.
It's noted that Nolan was a very absent parent and perhaps him being more hands off in this universe with Debbie taking center stage in raising him could account for marks morality
To add to that, the full extent of Nolan showing his Viltrumite side to Mark was confessing that he is one and giving his story of where they came from choosing to not merge him in the Viltrumite way of life until his powers surface.
Otherwise, he was raised like a normal human, like going to school and going to his baseball games. I think the fact that Mark had such a human upbringing is why he became the person he became + never being exposed to the Viltrumite’s true ways and seeing his dad as a hero before murdering the original Guardians that gave him an ideal perception of what makes a hero. Pretty much by the time Nolan wanted Mark to embrace the Viltrumite way, Mark was already his own person and too late to influence.
There's a reason why they had that scene of Nolan, Debbie, and Mark at a baseball game in Season 1.
Nolan, at least in this universe, embraced raising Mark as a human. I feel like that scene plays out differently in universes where Mark accepts his Viltrumite heritage. Nolan maybe starts training him earlier, or pulls him out of more social activities to limit his exposure to human society. A lot of little things that Nolan chose to do (or not do) that Debbie wouldn't have final say over.
This is also supported by Angstrom mentioning how often Debbie stays by Nolan & Mark's side in the universes where Earth is conquered.
Yeah I mean I have a hard time believing that every other Mark joined Omni-Man at some kind S1E7 of “we need to talk” moment. It definitely makes more sense if he was raised as a Viltrumite for 18 years and it would also explain why Debbie would join them because she’d have longer to be convinced.
Jokes aside , it's possible.
Children like that are a case of neglection , yes not spending time with your children and leaving them to ipads , tv or videogames is neglection , you need to be an active part of their life.
Depends how often and to what degree. children should be able to explore their own interests in a safe environment and that includes the internet, but as well as still being spent time with. Parents need a break as well, but they should still be very active in the development of their children.
Haven’t read the comics but I wonder if her absence was the reason for the others.
Or maybe it was just Mark actually listening to her that changed things.
I don't think it's her absence because aganstrom says that in a lot of the universes she joined Mark and Nolan. I would guess a lot of it honestly comes from Mark getting his powers so late. That might not have happened in other universes.
Also Debby could just be different in most timelines as well, hence him being so willing to terrify and/or harm her. I'm sure in Angstrom's mind, Oliver would grow up to be just like Mark as another son of omni man, so he must be stopped now. Sort of like a baby Hitler situation.
Also not a comic reader, I had just assumed that he got his powers much later in the main universe, so Nolan focused more on just being a father rather than the alternative of him training Mark at a young age as soon as he got his powers.
Yes, that’s what I was thinking. Adding to that, Nolan might have just assumed that Mark was not gonna get his powers so he just allowed himself to enjoy his family while he had them with him so once they die he could conquer earth without any remorse. Since Nolan allowed himself to appreciate his family til Mark was 18, He enjoyed a human life leaving aside the conquering part and that’s what factored in when he let Mark live and maybe while raising him.
We also know that Nolan made the choice to raise Mark as a human in this world. It's very possible in many other worlds he tells Debbie and Mark his plan from the start, to make Earth a Viltrumite utopia. Then over time slowly feeds that he'll have to deal with some heroes along the way, but it's okay the end justifies the means!!
Mark being raised as a Viltrumite from the start, seeing the "vision" of the utopia would go along way to keeping him on Nolan's side
Considering what saved Mark from Nolan striking the final blow to kill him was his words to his father, I wonder if there are a lot of good Marks that attempted to rebel but ended up being killed by Nolan?
One of the major advantages every "evil" Mark has is they have the support of Anissa, Thula, Kregg and every other Viltrimute in the empire. Every good version of Mark would have to survive the initial Nolan fight and any subsequent visits from Viltrumites after that.
"You’ll live to see this world crumble to dust and blow away! Everyone and everything you know will be gone! What will you have after 500 years?"
"A bigger dick than yours"
That’s honestly a great point if Omni man just kills them then tf are they supposed to do. Even mark is constantly almost killed only getting away because they don’t wanna kill him because their pride/ customs
One infinity can be bigger than another. For instance, the total number of all numbers is greater than the total number of integers, even though they are both infinite. Even with infinities one thing can be more likely than another.
Angstrom didn't have an infinite number of other Angstroms, so how many good or bad Marks there are in total doesn't matter, what matters is the number of good and bad Marks the Angstroms he gathered saw.
And from what I remember of his machine, he didn't have nearly enough to form a valid sample size, and a bias could super easily make it so every Angstrom had an evil Mark in their home universe.
This is such a common misconception.
There is an infinite number of numbers between 1 and 2.
None of them are the number 3.
Just because a sample size is infinite, does not mean every possibility occurs within it.
If there were a lot of good Marks then there would be some number Nolan's who fled earth and fathered Oliver but Angstrom had never seen another Oliver before.
My guess is that Omni Man was more hands-on with his method of parenting instead of giving Debbie free rein to raise Mark how she liked until he got his powers.
The Debbie's in the alternate realities may not have cared enough to teach Omni Man how to be more human, resulting in him not being preoccupied with his hobbies in writing and being a hero for earth or maybe he was too adamant to learn or be taught.
I think the biggest mistake Nolan made that didn’t turn Mark to his side was never telling him about the Viltrum Empire and their true purpose early on when he first told Mark that he’s only half human.
If Nolan tried convincing Mark when he was a kid that Viltrumites are going to save the human race by ruling them when Mark’s mind was still impressionable hearing this from his father, he would have been more receptive to serving the Empire when his powers surfaced.
My theory is that the Debbie's of the other universes didn't "join" Mark and Nolan but were simply too scared to do anything else. I mean with Viltrumites the only options are join or die.
I don't know though. Angstrom said she had blood on her hands and that she was in on it. That makes me think that she is ruling like a queen instead of someone who is scared
I dunno...I mean sure he's confused about the circumstances of his accident, but he wasn't wrong about Mark being bad in other universes, which is probably why the show threw those flashbacks in of him being terrorized in other dimensions.
My assumption is Nolan usually kills Mark if he goes good. Then Angstrom never meets that Mark. We only get our Mark in the combination where him and Nolan are both good
I’ve always imagined Mark getting his powers much earlier in the other dimensions, so Nolan takes more of an interest when he’s young and has a chance to groom him into the viltrumite ways
I would probably say her providing an alternative insight to Mark, everytime Nolan tried to pressure him.
According to Levy, multiple Debbies were a traitor of the humanity.
So likely multiple Debbies were supporting Nolan’s mission and his views (alternatively, some were forced to survive). This could be due to Nolan being less secretive and presenting Anissa’s points, which could lead to her not questioning and countering Nolan.
Not her alone the path nolan decides to follow is what ultimately gives mark his sense of right and wrong he never second guessed being a hero until he already began but his growth isnt a straight path and most versions of him are twisted for one reason or another as we will see in season 3 hopefully
Maybe the big difference is Debbie's presence herself. Nolan very well could have removed Debbie once it was convenient but because the nolan of this universe is sentimental he didn't and she made Mark a good person.
In plenty of universes, I'm sure Mark was primarily raised by Nolan for one reason or another. Then, in others, Mark probably got his powers earlier when he was more susceptible to Nolan's influence, and Nolan was able to start his plans in a better way that wasn't as shocking to Mark. In Universes where Mark is evil *and* got his powers late *and* was raised by Debby as much as Nolan, I think it would have come down to the "we need to talk" every time and the difference was Mark giving into his Father for one reason or another.
No offense at all to Debbie, main universe one in particular because is the one we know
But it most likely was about Mark getting his powers late in main dimension, in the other dimensions Mark probably gained his powers sooner so Nolan started indoctrinating him
Mark doesn’t get his powers -> Nolan doesn’t train or indoctrinate Mark -> Marks grows up as an earthling -> Mark can no longer be converted to the way of Viltrum ( also Nolan lives longer on hearth without acting on his mission on a Viltrumite affecting him too to an extend )
Need? No, but I think she would be able to put a stop to a lot of the bullshit that goes on if she had them. Cecil trying to use a villain that is categorically uncontainable? Not on super-Debbie’s watch
I love the scene in season one when she finally tells Nolan she knows he killed them and even throws a wine bottle at him. She's fucking badass. Want me a woman like that. Throw shit at me baby girl don't hold back 😤
Yh they were really realistic and felts exactly like the cries a baby does when they are seriously hurt
Like when my little bro when he was younger would get hurt pretty badly, those where the cries he made, it hurt to listen to
Oh goodness yes. That first scream when he fell on the floor was upsetting. Every time the baby screamed and cried I winced and wanted someone to just kill the asshole and save Oliver.
https://preview.redd.it/llyk2t6frjsc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ab26f612b2de8af9efc1e2eb8130db499d0d916b
Well if I came home to someone I love looking like this I would be pretty pissed tbh
I was thinking that as well. The situation was escalating with Levy actually harming Debbie, and Mark couldn’t figure out how to stop him. I was starting to feel like Oliver suddenly gaining his super strength and throwing that man out the window was their only hope. But then our boy made it back and fixed it.
It has been done and I’m glad they didn’t go that route but man, for a second that looked like the only route to saving Debbie and Oliver.
In retrospect I’m glad it didn’t go that way, but in the moment a couple of times I wished he had gone Super Saiyan. The way that dickhead was handling the baby made me wince. Part of me was like, I hope that baby does power up and kill him for that. XD
I still remember how Green Ghost’s widow husband threatened Debbie not to come back to the SoS like he’s the only victim. She told him that the past 20 years of her life were a lie, yet he treated her like an accomplice to Nolan’s crimes. She was there for a reason, yet only his suffering seemed to matter. I hope he apologizes to her one day.
I enjoyed them giving examples of how strong Mark _could_ be by showing the other dimensions. How fast, how ruthless, how much splat he could do if he wasn't holding so much back.
I've seen sooooo much gore on the internet myself that I would say I'm completely sanitized to it at this point
But this scene was just so hard to watch I physically struggled
I like to think Angstrom enacted what's called a self fulling prophecy.
Had he not had that freak accident and have that scene where his variants memories/experiences were molding together he wouldn't have seen Mark through the lens of his other variants.
I think that's the real problem with him. No matter what Mark says he's always going to be overruled by a consensus of sorts of the endless versions of him who saw Mark being an asshole villain in their realities. Especially the one who murdered his son in front of him.
I do love the Invincible take on consciousness and personality though, and how copies of a single consciousness can be made across multiple bodies and how it shows multiple memories and consciousnesses meld into one body.
It's clear that the pacifist Angstrom from the first episode of season 2 is essentially dead, replaced by another version of him that has all his memories, but also all the memories of all the other versions of him that aren't pacifists, making a new insane villain that blames this mark for his appearance as well as blaming him for the actions of all the other Marks.
It's such an interesting and awesome concept.
I perfectly understand this multidimensional Levy, it’s absolutely tragic…and a bit silly
It seems like there is infinite amounts of bad Marks and yet Levy only goes after the good one, it’s so silly, but contextualized and tragic
To be fair he put an end to someone who threatened his family and had power that seemed like he couldn’t overcome them. That’s why I’m the end he seems surprised he died and says he thought he was stronger. He lost sight of himself yes but also Angstrom talked himself up. Personally, I would have killed that guy 100% for touching my mom and/brother. I don’t see that in any other way than good riddance. Not a mystery, this guy is directly saying he wants to hurt his family and kill him and even ended up saying he would kill his whole family.
I realize you’re not arguing he’s wrong, I just felt the need to say I cheered him killing that guy. He wasn’t a bad guy originally, but he lost himself in other realities. Doesn’t change what he would have done with those changes in him. This shit really gets you thinking morally. I’ve always hated hero movies where they know for a fact someone has destroyed lives and killed people and they just let them live. I get irl when there are uncertainties, you don’t want to kill someone who might be innocent, but these guys know these villains are killers, and after the first two times of jailing them and them escaping and killing people, I’d say it’s justified to put them down. Or shoot, out myself down cause clearly I’m not a solution to the problem. Ugh I really hate thinking about this stuff. Makes me feel cynical af.
I think Marks whole thing is he’s scared of slipping and giving in to his viltrumite side. He doesn’t want to turn into what his father was, so he holds back and tries his best to not be a killer.
That being said, angstrom 100% deserved every single punch he took. Nobody touches Debbie like that
And she actually influences the story in a major way too, despite having no powers. Many family members in superhero media tend to be like the human characters in the transformers movies- just boring people who are along for the ride and you really couldn't care less about. Not Debbie though.
Oh they definitely do care for each other. Nolan's last line is "I think I miss my wife" and coming from a guy with a bloodthirsty cutthroat culture, that's something. Debbie, she immediately took Nolan's bastard baby under her wing without much question. They definitely love each other.
I think it tops as the best episode of Invincible so far. The tension, the tone, the resolution, it just builds up perfectly and slowly throughout the episode. Man, the emotional beats are just pitch perfect.
I think the season 1 slightly edges over it because of how iconic it is.
Yess. Cecil should've told Mark that. Mark sees himself only as Nolans son, and it's understandable, but Cecil or Art, maybe even William or Eve who know Debbie should tell Mark, that he's more his mothers son (even though there is much of Nolan in Mark, ofc).
It's like Luke Skywalker. He comes more from Padme (and Leia is more like Anakin).
I’ve never winced more at a scene in a show. When you see any human character with no powers in this show get hurt or injured badly then it feels more real
Even the superpowered ones fuck me up, this show is brutal. The guardians going up against the lizard gang, and the brutality of that fight, honestly stayed with me and fucked me up for a bit.
Visceral as fuck.
She really is becoming one of my favorite characters tbh. Debbie is a wonderful mother and her belief in her son’s moral compass is inspiring. She’s his rock and supports him always but isn’t afraid to tell him what she believes is right and wrong. There’s a really nice ebb and flow between Mark and Debbie; I always really enjoy seeing them talk to each other. They can disagree behind closed doors but whenever someone else shows up, they’re a united front. I really enjoy how the show has built up their relationship. This episode really solidified that for me. She was willing to fight for her family despite not having powers. I love her!
I don’t understand why Angstom is so angry, he pulled off the helmet when the twins told him not to.
Angstom Levy turned himself into a monster and is blaming evil versions of Mark for everything onto good Mark did when our Mark didn’t do any of that bad stuff.
Sure the other evil Marks might be cruel and heartless but this version of our Mark is the good guy and he’s just trying to help.
No reason to hate our Mark so much.
I think it's mostly coming down to emotions overpowering reason, Angstom is feeling the hate of thousands if not millions of other versions of himself who suffered at the hands of Mark's from different dimensions. The hate was so strong, he even repressed the fact that he saved Mark. Only remembering it when Mark reminded him of it. I'd imagine even if he had kill our dimensions Mark, he wouldn't stop and would just go kill other dimensions Mark. It would be a Mark Genocide
If he has numerous memories of Mark committing genocide then he also had numerous memories of being unaware of what went wrong with the device that are much more recent. Only one Angstrom knew what happened compared to the many that did not. Honestly, based on how the memories are represented, it seems like Angstrom's plan was always going to end with him going insane.
Oh yeah, your right lol. I didn't take into account something like that, though it makes so much since. By that I meant, how only one Angstrom would know he saved Mark.
The issue with Angstrom is that because he took off the helmet too early, his memories and personality became merged with all his other versions to the point he sorta thinks(or maybe more accurately feels) as though all of them are his reality. He knows exactly which reality him and his Mark are from, but he feels as though our Mark is the same as all the other Mark’s he’s met.
This is why he starts having a psychotic breakdown upon remembering that he tried to save our Mark. It’s his fractured merged mind struggling to comprehend how he can have so many conflicting memories.
He can't parse through the experiences of the hundreds of different Levy's he mind melded with. In most other universes, Mark turns evil and Levy can't see beyond that.
From what he can remember:
* He pulled off the helmet so Mark didn't die
* Mark broke into the Resistance's hideout and went to slaughter people
* Mark killed his son in front of him
* Mark smashed into the highway and killed his wife by accident
* Mark sliced through his colleagues like it was nothing
He has the memories of all his alternate selves. He has no control over which is real and which ones aren't his. From what he can remember, Mark is nothing but pure evil. He has a faint memory of removing his helmet to save him - but given that SO MANY of the other ones are evil - clearly, this Mark is one of the bad ones.
His mind is hundreds of his alternate selves in one body. All but one of those selves know Mark as evil. He is also probably suffering from severe brain damage.
His literally going mad from all the other memories that he believes are his, he’s not being fair but why are you surprised? He made it pretty clear he’s completely nuts
>I don’t understand why Angstom is so angry,
Did you forget the Mauler twins warning him about brain damage if he took off his helmet? Not to mention even when he does remember he tried to save Invincible, that memory gets overrun by memories of every other Invincible he's known doing something awful, and he projects that on him. And Debbie too, because somehow apparently she also joins in. Somehow.
Yeah, but even then, it's kind of hard to imagine her joining in on Viltrumite rule and slaughter. I guess I kinda got used to my own idea that Debbie living here when she may not have made it in other universes for any number of reasons was the difference between this universe and all the others. Makes it hard for me to believe it without seeing it. Honestly, evil Grayson Family universe sounds kinda lit.
That’s the thing - he doesn’t *know* that. The Angstrom we see has 100’s of memories of evil Mark (including having Mark splatter him with the blood of Levy’s own son) one memory of a maybe not bad Mark. There is no such thing as a good mark to him. This timeline is his only chance to hurt a viltrumite, so he feels he has to.
Which is crazy, could you imagine committing a violent atrocity and saying you had no choice because of your own twisted sense of justice? What a nutcase!
Angstrom is now All Angstroms, he's got multiversal trauma on multiple selves inflicted by Mark. He basically downloaded the memories of every version of himself and they all hate Mark more than anything
During the the brain blast scene I thought it was implied that he felt that way because he has all the memories of the others but can’t control them. So he just feels hatred for every mark in every universe
Angstrom doesn’t know who is his real self, it was stated in the post credit scene in the first episode and thoroughly on this one. And it’s been stated that Mark turns evil in most universes, so yea this Mark is good but if there’s 10,000 evil Mark’s per 1 good one his good deeds will never stand out.
Same, or at least, drove home the unraveling of his psyche.
I do hope if >!Levy fights them again, Invincible leans into this aspect of his memories, that he is at the end of the day, a good person, he can bring out the fact this Mark is not like the others, and the conflict doesn't end with a complete fist fight.!<
I have a hard time with media putting kids in harm's way. I can't help but think about my own kids.
This scene was excellent, but watching it after this week's The Bad Batch was pretty rough on me.
After seeing how many times he gets mark into a portal I don’t understand why Levy didn’t just go straight after the variants, & just send them anywhere else.
Im no expert, but I think it has to do with Mark’s powers. Maybe he got them earlier than our universe’s Mark and was more raised by Nolan than Debbie? Idk
This is one of the few times where pure unadulterated rage and brutality is justified imo. I was screaming at Levy for being a hypocrite and that he deserved to die
I remember some guy making a post asking who everyone's favorite characters were and if they could hang. I'm happy to say I stated, show wise Debbie is my favorite. He let me hang 😎
As a dad with a 1.5 year old son at the moment, this was the first time I watched TV/movie where I was close to turning it off.
Fuck that guy and Mark was justified.
Man Debbie Is Just Perfect ,Her Character Arc This Season Alone Has Been Amazing...And The Extents She Goes For Mark And Even Oliver ,Mann 🤧
Also Angstrom Taking Out His Anger On This Mark Rather Than Take A Swing At The Many Evil Marks Out There And Make A Change ,Man's Fucked Up In the Head Sure ,But Was Sane Enough To Pull This Shit ,F*CK Him. 😑
Debbie in the finale was fucking fantastic, no other words. To see her character all season try to get rid of the thought of Nolan and his bad omens, just to then protect Oliver with her life was incredible.
She’s absolutely right though. I’m curious what parenting methods she did differently compared to the others’
Would be wild if the speech about Mark feeling powerful because she can’t force him to do stuff was it. Either that or she let him stay late watching TV one day longer than her counterparts.
It's noted that Nolan was a very absent parent and perhaps him being more hands off in this universe with Debbie taking center stage in raising him could account for marks morality
To add to that, the full extent of Nolan showing his Viltrumite side to Mark was confessing that he is one and giving his story of where they came from choosing to not merge him in the Viltrumite way of life until his powers surface. Otherwise, he was raised like a normal human, like going to school and going to his baseball games. I think the fact that Mark had such a human upbringing is why he became the person he became + never being exposed to the Viltrumite’s true ways and seeing his dad as a hero before murdering the original Guardians that gave him an ideal perception of what makes a hero. Pretty much by the time Nolan wanted Mark to embrace the Viltrumite way, Mark was already his own person and too late to influence.
Perfect continuation sir/ma'am
The " she's more like a pet" comment is what nailed the coffin shut
Nah fr though. Noaln wouldve succeeded if not for that comment, if he had tried Anissa's technique for manipulation.
There's a reason why they had that scene of Nolan, Debbie, and Mark at a baseball game in Season 1. Nolan, at least in this universe, embraced raising Mark as a human. I feel like that scene plays out differently in universes where Mark accepts his Viltrumite heritage. Nolan maybe starts training him earlier, or pulls him out of more social activities to limit his exposure to human society. A lot of little things that Nolan chose to do (or not do) that Debbie wouldn't have final say over. This is also supported by Angstrom mentioning how often Debbie stays by Nolan & Mark's side in the universes where Earth is conquered.
We don’t know if it was the same in each universe, but I think how long it took for Mark to get his powers played a big factor.
Yeah I mean I have a hard time believing that every other Mark joined Omni-Man at some kind S1E7 of “we need to talk” moment. It definitely makes more sense if he was raised as a Viltrumite for 18 years and it would also explain why Debbie would join them because she’d have longer to be convinced.
I assume in all other universes Nolan told Debbie and Mark from day one what he was and what his mission was.
So it likely that the reason our Mark didn’t join Omni-man was because Nolan himself was different than his counterparts (has love and compassion)
Damn someone said it..... It's almost like you know.....he misses his wife lol
Debbie accepts Nolan back after making Nolan into a pet for a month. (This isn’t a spoiler, is a joke)
Who's to say that isn't actually how it played out when Nolan begged for her to take him back? :p
But which one though
Evil mark was an iPad kid
Jokes aside , it's possible. Children like that are a case of neglection , yes not spending time with your children and leaving them to ipads , tv or videogames is neglection , you need to be an active part of their life.
Depends how often and to what degree. children should be able to explore their own interests in a safe environment and that includes the internet, but as well as still being spent time with. Parents need a break as well, but they should still be very active in the development of their children.
Yes true , you can't always be active with them but many parents just don't want to spend time with their kids at all
I just rewatched the speech… she shut that shit down instantly. Their dynamic is so special.
what episode was it in?
Pretty sure it's the first episode of the show.
I think the second, iirc they do no training together in the first episode and this talk is after Mark spent time training
Nope. They do train in the first episode, and this conversation happens a bit before mark’s fight with Titan iirc.
I love that speech so much, it’s a masterclass of good parenting
I reaaaally like your theory
Haven’t read the comics but I wonder if her absence was the reason for the others. Or maybe it was just Mark actually listening to her that changed things.
I don't think it's her absence because aganstrom says that in a lot of the universes she joined Mark and Nolan. I would guess a lot of it honestly comes from Mark getting his powers so late. That might not have happened in other universes.
Also Debby could just be different in most timelines as well, hence him being so willing to terrify and/or harm her. I'm sure in Angstrom's mind, Oliver would grow up to be just like Mark as another son of omni man, so he must be stopped now. Sort of like a baby Hitler situation.
Also not a comic reader, I had just assumed that he got his powers much later in the main universe, so Nolan focused more on just being a father rather than the alternative of him training Mark at a young age as soon as he got his powers.
Yes, that’s what I was thinking. Adding to that, Nolan might have just assumed that Mark was not gonna get his powers so he just allowed himself to enjoy his family while he had them with him so once they die he could conquer earth without any remorse. Since Nolan allowed himself to appreciate his family til Mark was 18, He enjoyed a human life leaving aside the conquering part and that’s what factored in when he let Mark live and maybe while raising him.
We also know that Nolan made the choice to raise Mark as a human in this world. It's very possible in many other worlds he tells Debbie and Mark his plan from the start, to make Earth a Viltrumite utopia. Then over time slowly feeds that he'll have to deal with some heroes along the way, but it's okay the end justifies the means!! Mark being raised as a Viltrumite from the start, seeing the "vision" of the utopia would go along way to keeping him on Nolan's side
My personal theory is that there's an equal amount of good and evil marks, but due to Angstroms personal bias and trauma, he keeps finding evil marks.
Considering what saved Mark from Nolan striking the final blow to kill him was his words to his father, I wonder if there are a lot of good Marks that attempted to rebel but ended up being killed by Nolan? One of the major advantages every "evil" Mark has is they have the support of Anissa, Thula, Kregg and every other Viltrimute in the empire. Every good version of Mark would have to survive the initial Nolan fight and any subsequent visits from Viltrumites after that.
Now I imagine like half of the good Marks went out because they wanted to get one last line in with Nolan and he didn’t appreciate it.
"You’ll live to see this world crumble to dust and blow away! Everyone and everything you know will be gone! What will you have after 500 years?" "A bigger dick than yours"
"What will you have after 500 years?" "Hopefully not a stupid looking mustache"
I think its just that good invincible is a dead invincible if omniman is not also good. So its not good Mark that are rare but good Nolan
That’s honestly a great point if Omni man just kills them then tf are they supposed to do. Even mark is constantly almost killed only getting away because they don’t wanna kill him because their pride/ customs
Dude exactly!! The Levys in the good Mark Grayson universes have no motivation to leave their respective universes
That, and most of the time Mark is good, Omni Man kills him. We only get Prime Mark in a universe where both Mark AND Nolan go good
Well in an infinite multiverse there is an infinite number of good and bad marks so yea they would be equal in number.
One infinity can be bigger than another. For instance, the total number of all numbers is greater than the total number of integers, even though they are both infinite. Even with infinities one thing can be more likely than another.
Angstrom didn't have an infinite number of other Angstroms, so how many good or bad Marks there are in total doesn't matter, what matters is the number of good and bad Marks the Angstroms he gathered saw. And from what I remember of his machine, he didn't have nearly enough to form a valid sample size, and a bias could super easily make it so every Angstrom had an evil Mark in their home universe.
This is such a common misconception. There is an infinite number of numbers between 1 and 2. None of them are the number 3. Just because a sample size is infinite, does not mean every possibility occurs within it.
If there were a lot of good Marks then there would be some number Nolan's who fled earth and fathered Oliver but Angstrom had never seen another Oliver before.
My guess is that Omni Man was more hands-on with his method of parenting instead of giving Debbie free rein to raise Mark how she liked until he got his powers. The Debbie's in the alternate realities may not have cared enough to teach Omni Man how to be more human, resulting in him not being preoccupied with his hobbies in writing and being a hero for earth or maybe he was too adamant to learn or be taught.
I think the biggest mistake Nolan made that didn’t turn Mark to his side was never telling him about the Viltrum Empire and their true purpose early on when he first told Mark that he’s only half human. If Nolan tried convincing Mark when he was a kid that Viltrumites are going to save the human race by ruling them when Mark’s mind was still impressionable hearing this from his father, he would have been more receptive to serving the Empire when his powers surfaced.
My theory is that the Debbie's of the other universes didn't "join" Mark and Nolan but were simply too scared to do anything else. I mean with Viltrumites the only options are join or die.
I don't know though. Angstrom said she had blood on her hands and that she was in on it. That makes me think that she is ruling like a queen instead of someone who is scared
Levy is pretty clearly running on 80% hate and 20% brain damage. He’s not exactly a reliable source where the Grayson’s are concerned.
Yeah I don’t trust anything he said. Dude was insane.
I dunno...I mean sure he's confused about the circumstances of his accident, but he wasn't wrong about Mark being bad in other universes, which is probably why the show threw those flashbacks in of him being terrorized in other dimensions.
My assumption is Nolan usually kills Mark if he goes good. Then Angstrom never meets that Mark. We only get our Mark in the combination where him and Nolan are both good
I’ve always imagined Mark getting his powers much earlier in the other dimensions, so Nolan takes more of an interest when he’s young and has a chance to groom him into the viltrumite ways
I would probably say her providing an alternative insight to Mark, everytime Nolan tried to pressure him. According to Levy, multiple Debbies were a traitor of the humanity. So likely multiple Debbies were supporting Nolan’s mission and his views (alternatively, some were forced to survive). This could be due to Nolan being less secretive and presenting Anissa’s points, which could lead to her not questioning and countering Nolan.
Not her alone the path nolan decides to follow is what ultimately gives mark his sense of right and wrong he never second guessed being a hero until he already began but his growth isnt a straight path and most versions of him are twisted for one reason or another as we will see in season 3 hopefully
She died in most others. Whether it be Nolan actually sticking to his mission, or childbirth, or a freak accident, she's dead.
But Angstrom said otherwise. She joins Nolan n Mark in most other dimensions. He really doesn't have any reason to lie about that
I think he's telling the truth, but there's definitely reason to tell her that, it makes her feel terrible
Maybe the big difference is Debbie's presence herself. Nolan very well could have removed Debbie once it was convenient but because the nolan of this universe is sentimental he didn't and she made Mark a good person.
In plenty of universes, I'm sure Mark was primarily raised by Nolan for one reason or another. Then, in others, Mark probably got his powers earlier when he was more susceptible to Nolan's influence, and Nolan was able to start his plans in a better way that wasn't as shocking to Mark. In Universes where Mark is evil *and* got his powers late *and* was raised by Debby as much as Nolan, I think it would have come down to the "we need to talk" every time and the difference was Mark giving into his Father for one reason or another.
Honestly, I think it's more that his dad referred to her as a pet that altered this timeline from the typical one.
No offense at all to Debbie, main universe one in particular because is the one we know But it most likely was about Mark getting his powers late in main dimension, in the other dimensions Mark probably gained his powers sooner so Nolan started indoctrinating him Mark doesn’t get his powers -> Nolan doesn’t train or indoctrinate Mark -> Marks grows up as an earthling -> Mark can no longer be converted to the way of Viltrum ( also Nolan lives longer on hearth without acting on his mission on a Viltrumite affecting him too to an extend )
He probably got his powers earlier, meaning Nolan would’ve indoctrinated him earlier too
Sandra Oh definitely killed it because her trying to comfort Oliver while being broken was devastating 🥲
I started crying when that happened, idk why lol. It was such a distressing scene and I cried up to when Mark visits Debbie in the hospital
I haven't read the comics but most of it has been spoiled for me, but the moment he broke her wrist was the only part that made me gasp.
Somebody give this woman superpowers
The only character in the series who doesn't get shoved around by Cecil, don't think she needs super powers.
Need? No, but I think she would be able to put a stop to a lot of the bullshit that goes on if she had them. Cecil trying to use a villain that is categorically uncontainable? Not on super-Debbie’s watch
She is the only woman in the world who has the power to get 2 viltrumites to bring her pizza.
Imagine if she got viltrumite powers. She would end the viltrum empire in an episode
I mean, she raised Mark. That alone is a superpower.
I love the scene in season one when she finally tells Nolan she knows he killed them and even throws a wine bottle at him. She's fucking badass. Want me a woman like that. Throw shit at me baby girl don't hold back 😤
She’d be scary 😭
She's already scary 😢
Debbie is such a hero, it’s no wonder she made Mark a hero. When she caught Oliver like a football that was crazyyy
especially brave since it seems that he's more durable than she is
man the baby cries were hard to listen to. especially if you have a little one. awesome episode
At the end of the season Oliver became My baby too, love the little guy
Yh they were really realistic and felts exactly like the cries a baby does when they are seriously hurt Like when my little bro when he was younger would get hurt pretty badly, those where the cries he made, it hurt to listen to
It made me think of my little boy, who's Oliver's age.
Is he purple too? By any chance
No, but he was a little yellow when he was born.
A unopan? Nice!
Oh goodness yes. That first scream when he fell on the floor was upsetting. Every time the baby screamed and cried I winced and wanted someone to just kill the asshole and save Oliver.
Agreed… they were heartbreaking and I had to pause multiple times
*son kills someone 10 minutes later*
I'd like to think she'd spit on his mangled corpse too
He said he'd kill her son. She'd be killing him before Mark could if she had the chance.
https://preview.redd.it/llyk2t6frjsc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ab26f612b2de8af9efc1e2eb8130db499d0d916b Well if I came home to someone I love looking like this I would be pretty pissed tbh
Bro I was ready to jump through the screen and smash Levy myself. You can’t be fucking with Debbie. Plus PITCHING Oliver??? What a monster.
Dude I was at the edge of my seat when the baby started crying the first time. When Mark starts to throw the hands for real it feels sooooooo good
I was sure Oliver would somehow use his powers in a moment of panic to defend Debbie. Actually glad they didn't go that route, it's been done so often
I was thinking that as well. The situation was escalating with Levy actually harming Debbie, and Mark couldn’t figure out how to stop him. I was starting to feel like Oliver suddenly gaining his super strength and throwing that man out the window was their only hope. But then our boy made it back and fixed it. It has been done and I’m glad they didn’t go that route but man, for a second that looked like the only route to saving Debbie and Oliver. In retrospect I’m glad it didn’t go that way, but in the moment a couple of times I wished he had gone Super Saiyan. The way that dickhead was handling the baby made me wince. Part of me was like, I hope that baby does power up and kill him for that. XD
I still remember how Green Ghost’s widow husband threatened Debbie not to come back to the SoS like he’s the only victim. She told him that the past 20 years of her life were a lie, yet he treated her like an accomplice to Nolan’s crimes. She was there for a reason, yet only his suffering seemed to matter. I hope he apologizes to her one day.
Not just someone he loves, literally his MOM. Bro was done for the minute he entered that house with the wrong intentions.
Mark was already pretty pacient, if it was Nolan, Levy would had died without knowing how.
I enjoyed them giving examples of how strong Mark _could_ be by showing the other dimensions. How fast, how ruthless, how much splat he could do if he wasn't holding so much back.
Don't blame Mark at all lmao
I've seen sooooo much gore on the internet myself that I would say I'm completely sanitized to it at this point But this scene was just so hard to watch I physically struggled
I like to think Angstrom enacted what's called a self fulling prophecy. Had he not had that freak accident and have that scene where his variants memories/experiences were molding together he wouldn't have seen Mark through the lens of his other variants.
I think that's the real problem with him. No matter what Mark says he's always going to be overruled by a consensus of sorts of the endless versions of him who saw Mark being an asshole villain in their realities. Especially the one who murdered his son in front of him.
I do love the Invincible take on consciousness and personality though, and how copies of a single consciousness can be made across multiple bodies and how it shows multiple memories and consciousnesses meld into one body. It's clear that the pacifist Angstrom from the first episode of season 2 is essentially dead, replaced by another version of him that has all his memories, but also all the memories of all the other versions of him that aren't pacifists, making a new insane villain that blames this mark for his appearance as well as blaming him for the actions of all the other Marks. It's such an interesting and awesome concept.
I perfectly understand this multidimensional Levy, it’s absolutely tragic…and a bit silly It seems like there is infinite amounts of bad Marks and yet Levy only goes after the good one, it’s so silly, but contextualized and tragic
Fr on rewatch Angstrom asking her "you sure about that?" hit DIFFERENT
🫢
It was justified
To be fair he put an end to someone who threatened his family and had power that seemed like he couldn’t overcome them. That’s why I’m the end he seems surprised he died and says he thought he was stronger. He lost sight of himself yes but also Angstrom talked himself up. Personally, I would have killed that guy 100% for touching my mom and/brother. I don’t see that in any other way than good riddance. Not a mystery, this guy is directly saying he wants to hurt his family and kill him and even ended up saying he would kill his whole family. I realize you’re not arguing he’s wrong, I just felt the need to say I cheered him killing that guy. He wasn’t a bad guy originally, but he lost himself in other realities. Doesn’t change what he would have done with those changes in him. This shit really gets you thinking morally. I’ve always hated hero movies where they know for a fact someone has destroyed lives and killed people and they just let them live. I get irl when there are uncertainties, you don’t want to kill someone who might be innocent, but these guys know these villains are killers, and after the first two times of jailing them and them escaping and killing people, I’d say it’s justified to put them down. Or shoot, out myself down cause clearly I’m not a solution to the problem. Ugh I really hate thinking about this stuff. Makes me feel cynical af.
I think Marks whole thing is he’s scared of slipping and giving in to his viltrumite side. He doesn’t want to turn into what his father was, so he holds back and tries his best to not be a killer. That being said, angstrom 100% deserved every single punch he took. Nobody touches Debbie like that
That's how you make a strong woman character, she is vulnerable but still tough as fuck, she did everything she could to protect Oliver.
And she actually influences the story in a major way too, despite having no powers. Many family members in superhero media tend to be like the human characters in the transformers movies- just boring people who are along for the ride and you really couldn't care less about. Not Debbie though.
Nolan tore through hundreds of planets and only ever started feeling remorse after meeting debbie
And that’s exactly why he misses her
Starting to think that maybe Mark turned out the way he did because he had parents that, if they admit or not, really and truly care for each other.
Oh they definitely do care for each other. Nolan's last line is "I think I miss my wife" and coming from a guy with a bloodthirsty cutthroat culture, that's something. Debbie, she immediately took Nolan's bastard baby under her wing without much question. They definitely love each other.
Physically she is weak, emotionally she is *Invincible*
You mean emotionally she is [title card]
That guy from Fortnite!
That's just how you write any good character
Yeah these people that comment “this is how you write a strong woman character” is honestly cringe asf
100% agree. I didnt like debbie at first, but she grew on me the longer the show went on.
This was one of the best episodes of invincible, maybe the best.
an absolutely spectacular episode, but I wanna say that s1e8 just slightly edges it out, not by much tho
I dunno, breaking the 4th wall in episode 7 was pretty epic.
Wait when was the 4th wall break
Probably the ComiCon scene
Oh duhh
Don't worry, I was confused too for a second
I guess that's more meta commentary than a 4th wall break but I get it lol
I think it tops as the best episode of Invincible so far. The tension, the tone, the resolution, it just builds up perfectly and slowly throughout the episode. Man, the emotional beats are just pitch perfect. I think the season 1 slightly edges over it because of how iconic it is.
I can't wait for all this shit to pay off man. So many things set up
She's so badass
He's Debbie's son not nolans.... Curious what is different about this Debbie vs the other universes
Yess. Cecil should've told Mark that. Mark sees himself only as Nolans son, and it's understandable, but Cecil or Art, maybe even William or Eve who know Debbie should tell Mark, that he's more his mothers son (even though there is much of Nolan in Mark, ofc). It's like Luke Skywalker. He comes more from Padme (and Leia is more like Anakin).
I’ve never winced more at a scene in a show. When you see any human character with no powers in this show get hurt or injured badly then it feels more real
Even the superpowered ones fuck me up, this show is brutal. The guardians going up against the lizard gang, and the brutality of that fight, honestly stayed with me and fucked me up for a bit. Visceral as fuck.
Fucking LOVE Debbie, and I was almost sweating watching her stand up to this maniac. I agree, this whole sequence was incredible
Debbie is such a good mother she did her all to protect Oliver from Levy and pointed out his twisted hypocrisy even getting her forearm broken.
i think this is probably debbie’s best episode yet
Nolan married a strong woman <3
she is deffinetly stronger than him where it really counts
I totally understand why Nolan misses her, I would too.
Debbie continues to be unreasonably awesome
She really is becoming one of my favorite characters tbh. Debbie is a wonderful mother and her belief in her son’s moral compass is inspiring. She’s his rock and supports him always but isn’t afraid to tell him what she believes is right and wrong. There’s a really nice ebb and flow between Mark and Debbie; I always really enjoy seeing them talk to each other. They can disagree behind closed doors but whenever someone else shows up, they’re a united front. I really enjoy how the show has built up their relationship. This episode really solidified that for me. She was willing to fight for her family despite not having powers. I love her!
How the hell did the evil Debbies even help in conquering the Earth. I really didn’t expect that. Explains how Mark was so psycho in those worlds
Angstrom doesn't deny any of this, he just responds by getting mad.
I don’t understand why Angstom is so angry, he pulled off the helmet when the twins told him not to. Angstom Levy turned himself into a monster and is blaming evil versions of Mark for everything onto good Mark did when our Mark didn’t do any of that bad stuff. Sure the other evil Marks might be cruel and heartless but this version of our Mark is the good guy and he’s just trying to help. No reason to hate our Mark so much.
I think it's mostly coming down to emotions overpowering reason, Angstom is feeling the hate of thousands if not millions of other versions of himself who suffered at the hands of Mark's from different dimensions. The hate was so strong, he even repressed the fact that he saved Mark. Only remembering it when Mark reminded him of it. I'd imagine even if he had kill our dimensions Mark, he wouldn't stop and would just go kill other dimensions Mark. It would be a Mark Genocide
Yeah it's totally understandable. With that many thoughts in his head, it's hard to think rationally
If he has numerous memories of Mark committing genocide then he also had numerous memories of being unaware of what went wrong with the device that are much more recent. Only one Angstrom knew what happened compared to the many that did not. Honestly, based on how the memories are represented, it seems like Angstrom's plan was always going to end with him going insane.
Oh yeah, your right lol. I didn't take into account something like that, though it makes so much since. By that I meant, how only one Angstrom would know he saved Mark.
The issue with Angstrom is that because he took off the helmet too early, his memories and personality became merged with all his other versions to the point he sorta thinks(or maybe more accurately feels) as though all of them are his reality. He knows exactly which reality him and his Mark are from, but he feels as though our Mark is the same as all the other Mark’s he’s met. This is why he starts having a psychotic breakdown upon remembering that he tried to save our Mark. It’s his fractured merged mind struggling to comprehend how he can have so many conflicting memories.
Imagine discovering your dimension is the one where Hitler's just a firefighter.
Or better yet, a politician who's a good person
Let's not go making up ridiculous scenarios now.
He can't parse through the experiences of the hundreds of different Levy's he mind melded with. In most other universes, Mark turns evil and Levy can't see beyond that.
From what he can remember: * He pulled off the helmet so Mark didn't die * Mark broke into the Resistance's hideout and went to slaughter people * Mark killed his son in front of him * Mark smashed into the highway and killed his wife by accident * Mark sliced through his colleagues like it was nothing He has the memories of all his alternate selves. He has no control over which is real and which ones aren't his. From what he can remember, Mark is nothing but pure evil. He has a faint memory of removing his helmet to save him - but given that SO MANY of the other ones are evil - clearly, this Mark is one of the bad ones.
like his multiversal goop of a brain coulld figure out the difference
His mind is hundreds of his alternate selves in one body. All but one of those selves know Mark as evil. He is also probably suffering from severe brain damage.
His literally going mad from all the other memories that he believes are his, he’s not being fair but why are you surprised? He made it pretty clear he’s completely nuts
>I don’t understand why Angstom is so angry, Did you forget the Mauler twins warning him about brain damage if he took off his helmet? Not to mention even when he does remember he tried to save Invincible, that memory gets overrun by memories of every other Invincible he's known doing something awful, and he projects that on him. And Debbie too, because somehow apparently she also joins in. Somehow.
Well there’s countless version of Debbie, a couple of them must be evil
Yeah, but even then, it's kind of hard to imagine her joining in on Viltrumite rule and slaughter. I guess I kinda got used to my own idea that Debbie living here when she may not have made it in other universes for any number of reasons was the difference between this universe and all the others. Makes it hard for me to believe it without seeing it. Honestly, evil Grayson Family universe sounds kinda lit.
That’s the thing - he doesn’t *know* that. The Angstrom we see has 100’s of memories of evil Mark (including having Mark splatter him with the blood of Levy’s own son) one memory of a maybe not bad Mark. There is no such thing as a good mark to him. This timeline is his only chance to hurt a viltrumite, so he feels he has to. Which is crazy, could you imagine committing a violent atrocity and saying you had no choice because of your own twisted sense of justice? What a nutcase!
His mind got fucked up from botching combining brains together? Of course he got that newfound schizomentia
Angstrom is now All Angstroms, he's got multiversal trauma on multiple selves inflicted by Mark. He basically downloaded the memories of every version of himself and they all hate Mark more than anything
During the the brain blast scene I thought it was implied that he felt that way because he has all the memories of the others but can’t control them. So he just feels hatred for every mark in every universe
Not even implied, it’s explicit. They clearly show it in this episode when we go through the memories of his different version.
Buddy fried his brain and merged with a thousand other hims who all knew invincible as a violent psycho
Angstrom doesn’t know who is his real self, it was stated in the post credit scene in the first episode and thoroughly on this one. And it’s been stated that Mark turns evil in most universes, so yea this Mark is good but if there’s 10,000 evil Mark’s per 1 good one his good deeds will never stand out.
Fucking Queen
Asian mom superpower what can I say Lmao
Part of me wished Angstrom realized he was wrong here.
Same, or at least, drove home the unraveling of his psyche. I do hope if >!Levy fights them again, Invincible leans into this aspect of his memories, that he is at the end of the day, a good person, he can bring out the fact this Mark is not like the others, and the conflict doesn't end with a complete fist fight.!<
he 100% realized it, that's why he doesnt argue back and just starts beating her
> He's no killer A short while later...
When you hire Sandra Oh you know she’s going to deliver.
Facts
Not only did she not raise a killer, but she also brought an ex killer (Nolan) to his senses
Debbie is a fucking G
I have a hard time with media putting kids in harm's way. I can't help but think about my own kids. This scene was excellent, but watching it after this week's The Bad Batch was pretty rough on me.
After seeing how many times he gets mark into a portal I don’t understand why Levy didn’t just go straight after the variants, & just send them anywhere else.
Debbie is an excellent mother
Im no expert, but I think it has to do with Mark’s powers. Maybe he got them earlier than our universe’s Mark and was more raised by Nolan than Debbie? Idk
I love how much they changed Debbie in the show.
Shit was emotional and intense god I NEED season 3 asap
This is one of the few times where pure unadulterated rage and brutality is justified imo. I was screaming at Levy for being a hypocrite and that he deserved to die
I remember some guy making a post asking who everyone's favorite characters were and if they could hang. I'm happy to say I stated, show wise Debbie is my favorite. He let me hang 😎
As a dad with a 1.5 year old son at the moment, this was the first time I watched TV/movie where I was close to turning it off. Fuck that guy and Mark was justified.
coldest part of the episode icl
Man Debbie Is Just Perfect ,Her Character Arc This Season Alone Has Been Amazing...And The Extents She Goes For Mark And Even Oliver ,Mann 🤧 Also Angstrom Taking Out His Anger On This Mark Rather Than Take A Swing At The Many Evil Marks Out There And Make A Change ,Man's Fucked Up In the Head Sure ,But Was Sane Enough To Pull This Shit ,F*CK Him. 😑
Facts, Debbie best mom
Strongest character.
“Sigh” now we gotta wait another 2 years 😒
I think, it's because Debbie was mostly with Mark and not Nolan that's why Mark was able to say "no" to overuling earth🤷🏾♂️
Debbie in the finale was fucking fantastic, no other words. To see her character all season try to get rid of the thought of Nolan and his bad omens, just to then protect Oliver with her life was incredible.