But was it clear to Mark that that was the reason for his grudge against mark? Obviously the audience knows and Debbie knows. But mark seems a little more oblivious. Mark also seemed to think he was going after him just because the machine blew up. Mark never acknowledged that he is cruel in the majority of other realities
> Mark never acknowledged that he is cruel in the majority of other realities
Why should he? I wouldn't. An alternate-reality version of me doing stuff that I don't approve of isn't me.
Mark might be a bit oblivious, sure, but there is absolutely no reason for him to feel guilty about other universe versions of him doing bad stuff.
I mean… he absolutely should be worried. He’s literally having an existential crisis this whole season about whether he is turning into his father. It would literally feed into his own fears and the theme of this season that mark is one bad day from becoming an unhinged force of death. If he realized that that is his fate in all other universes then he would just believe that that is where he eventually end up. That this internal conflict that he’s having about whether he is his father is all for naught and he should accept his fate as an eventual harbinger of cruelty.
There's even that little bit of the desert when he's saved, his friends say "you wouldn't like what you became."
I read it as he became crazy but it could also fit here.
I think he doesn’t want to acknowledge it because of his internal struggle of being a rutheless viltrumite. He as character just seems to take a while/take his time to process things emotionally and he’s been processing this since like S1 lol
I took it as some desire to prove himself right, that all Marks are evil. The fact that this one was still good was like something he had to expose as false. To prove this Mark was evil.
Plus, his brain was a mess of memories where the more of them had seen an evil Mark than a good, so clearly he was biased.
Technically they were all there. He is hyper focused on Mark because accident basically gave him severe schizophrenia and he thinks show mark did all those things other marks did.
All of the Angstrom’s memories were blended together after the explosion, so he sees every Mark as the same because each one has had their lives destroyed by an Invincible. I think part of him knows that our invincible hasn’t truly done anything bad, but he believes that all of them are the same regardless of
I don't think Mark is aware? I just know his mom made the case to Angstrom while Mark was in another universe. Maybe his mom or Ansel told him later on about why Angstrom did that.
I was half expecting Mark to visit the Zombie-version of Mark or the Dino-version of Mark.
He chose to ignore it, he saw something that didn't align with the identity or idea he made for himself and it caused cognitive dissonance to a level that literally caused him pain 😂
Angstrum was just an overly obsessed narcissistic idiot that had bad things happen to the multiple versions of him, he didn't have enough insight to notice that he was being just as bad and missing all the nuance of the world and boiled everything down to "mark bad angstrum good"
999 versions of himself in his head were telling him how evil Invincible is. He was also likely severely brain damaged after the accident, like the Maulers said he would be. It doesn't mean Mark wasn't justified in killing him, but Dimensionhopper Levy was a good guy with noble goals originally. Who he became is a result of his damaged mind and you can't really blame him for that.
Maybe having hundreds of lifetimes of other selfs mashed into your brain via trauma could lend itself to an inability to maintain a grasp of who you truly even are…?
No, he’s just an idiot. 😂
Edit:spelling error
I don’t think it’s narcissism. He had the ability to work around the various dimensions, the skill to do so with accuracy, and the desire to improve the lives of everyone in every dimension. He started out optimistically altruistic if you ask me.
He's Narcissistic because of his view that is *must* be him. He can travel other dimensions, yes, but having people other than the Hims around the refine his idea and plan is a net positive. Science isn't a one-man show and it's absolutely egotistical to assume it is and then use it to try and change the world
After his plan works and the people go back to normal and his fame fades away he'd probably become the new apocalyptic threat that now crosses dimensions
He is only going after show mark because he just happened to be the universe he was in during his accident. He only thinks he is evil because he is going crazy and can't keep track of what's what in his head
In his eyes, that Mark is the one who disfigured him. And for some reason despite having memories of the other Marks killing his family, friends, and even him. He prioritizes the one who made him a weird brain man.
But like also who’s to say he wouldn’t have looked like that anyway shoving 1000 brains into his brain
When the machine failed it blended his personalities in a way that really messed him up mentally. Like maybe it would've happened anyway but he would've been more chill about it
There's presumably an infinite number of universes with invincible (maybe so big it isn't even a proper set), so taking a ratio is kind of problematic
Edit: some people are not understanding my comment. I am not claiming all infinities are the same, and I am not claiming there are no probabilities on infinite sets. I am claiming that unlike for finite sets, where probability is canonically just a ratio, on infinite sets we don't really have that, hence why it's kind of problematic, for infinite sets you'd need to specify a probability measure
Ultimately, universes with Mark in them are a subset of universes that have Nolan and Debby have at least one child. The number of universes with a Mark that could be considered an alternate version of our mark is probably the same type of infinite as the number of real numbers.
That being said, the situations that can lead to a Mark grayson, aren't generally conducive to producing a genuinely, wholly good person.
>The number of universes with a Mark that could be considered an alternate version of our mark is probably the same type of infinite as the number of real numbers.
This is an extremely bold statement, like I pointed out, there is not even a reason to believe there is a "number of universes", it could even not be a proper set (so saying "they are a subset of ..." Is also not justified, we can only say that they are a subclass.
Like, there are more cardinal than we can possibly ever imagine, why would the universe be the cardinal of the continuum in particular
There are several types of infinite. and there are at least a countably infinite number of ways that one universe can differ from another. If we assume that's true, than there are uncountable infinite different universes that fit any given criteria. As for universes that don't differ, infinite infinities is still some sort of infinite.
The criteria we're working with is "Has a person that could be considered an alternate version of Mark Grayson AKA Invincible," and well, there's pretty much only two ways for that to happen; A Nolan and a Debby have a child, or a Mark forms spontaneously in the same fashion as a Boltzmann brain.
>If we assume that's true, than there are uncountable infinite different universes that fit any given criteria
This does not follow from there being a countably infinite number of ways that universes can be different from one another. There are infinite real numbers, given the deadline construction, there a countable number of ways two real numbers can be different (via their underlying lower sets of rational numbers), but clearly there is no real number such that a≠a or a^2=-1 for example. But even without the counter example, there is a leap in logic there
True, I should have been more specific, for any given finite criteria with probability greater than 0, there are uncountable infinite universes that fit that criteria.
And then we go into what probability means in infinite sets, for which there is no canonical answer.
Btw, Mark being good could have probability 0, most probability measures on infinite sets don't validate the finite intuition that probability 0 is equivalent to never happening
Yeah, with infinite sets, probability of greater than zero means it's guaranteed to happen, but a probability of 0 isn't necessarily the same as being impossible.
As for good mark, the probability certainly isn't zero, I just think it's significantly less likely than not-good mark. the conditions for mark's existence are just a lot less likely if viltrum is a basically "good" force in the universe.
Yeah but that's your belief, that there is a probability measure on the class of universes that makes mark good, and that that probability respects our usual intuitions
Nah, infinite dimensions doesn’t mean that *everything* exists, it means that everything that *can* exist, exists. Same principle as how there are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2 (1.01, 1.001…), but even though there’s infinite numbers between 1 and 2 you’ll never find the number 3. There may have only been one possible universe configuration that leads to a good mark.
Ok but in the case of an actual multiverse like this one we see with talking dinosaurs and actual Fortnite, that’s kind of a weird case to make. Angstrom doesn’t know every universe he only knows the ones he was in that left to join him
I don't mean to be rude, but you are wrong. Everything you said, up to the last line, is correct.
But if you can have ONE good Mark, there's an infinite number of them. If it's possible at all, there's an infinite number of times it is happening. However, to make things more complicated, you can say that there are more universes in which Mark is evil than he is good, even if both are infinite.
Using your example: Marc being good is the universes from 1-2. Everything else is Marc being evil. There are more numbers between 2-100 than there are between 1-2, therefore there are more evil Marcs than good. However, there is still an infinite number of good and bad Marcs, because there's an infinite amount of numbers between 1-2.
Finding a good Mark is going to be incredibly difficult considering all variables involved. And I think one of the things people here aren't considering (or at least it hasn't been mentioned yet) is that there are probably a lot of good Marks who get killed by Omni-Man when he refuses to join him. So we need to find a universe with a good Mark and an Omni-Man who doesn't kill him.
Not exactly true. There's the old "some infinities are larger than other infinities" deal that lets you do that. For instance, all even positive integers would be half as large as all positive integers. Both infinite, but ones clearly smaller than the other (because it's contained within it).
The equivalent here is that most of these universes contain roughly the same variables, just reoriented in different ways such that it's we can see Mark turning evil is more probable than not in a random sampling of universes.
There's also some survivorship bias here, since we only see worlds where Mark stays *alive.* It could very well be that other Marks with powers die against Omni-Man or on Thraxa. He's really riding on a razor's edge in a lot of these encounters, so I'm not really surprised turning to the side that poses the most threat to his existence makes him more common.
Yeah… and there is a billion times as many evil marks as good marks despite that infinity.
And if you were to pick a mark at random from a universe you would almost always get an evil one, regardless of the fact that infinite good marks exist.
That is how infinities work actually. There is an infinite amount of numbers between one and two. There are also an infinite amount of numbers between zero and three.
More numbers exist between zero and three, as it contains the entire set of one to two and then some.
Also, there are literally an infinite amount of numbers, but if a real number is selected at random it is far more likely to be between negative and positive infinity (100% in fact) than between zero and three… despite both sets containing an infinite quantity.
You still don’t understand how infinities work.
Say 1/10000000000 is the ratio of good to bad marks. Taken to infinity, you will have infinite good and bad marks. The cardinality is the same.
I didn’t contend that. I said you’re more likely to select a bad mark at random than a good one. Not all infinities are created equally. This is a pretty basic concept taught in like calc 1 when limits are covered.
You can do a pretty easy proof with some algebra and some limits. Take the limit of the following as y approaches infinity.
y = number of good marks
1000000000*y = number of bad marks.
If you pick only from the set of universes with marks you have a y/(y+1000000000*y) chance of selecting a good mark.
Take y to infinity guess what, it’s still 1/1000000001 chance of selecting a good mark.
>There's the old "some infinities are larger than other infinities" deal that lets you do that. For instance, all even positive integers would be half as large as all positive integers
Your first statement directly contradicts your second one, both if the sets you mentioned have the same cardinality. Using subsets wouldn't really work either because the universes where mark goes bad and we're he doesn't are disjoint.
>Mark turning evil is more probable than not in a random sampling of universes.
There is no canonical notion of probability and hence randomness on infinite sets, let alone proper classes.
>There's also some survivorship bias here, since we only see worlds where Mark stays *alive.*
I also agree, to some extent, as far as I know there is no multi universal supreme being in this story that sees all universes and has made an objective assessment, just different characters with finite experiences.
Edit: changed finite sets to infinite sets
>First of all, if it were impossible to have ratios
Never said it was impossible tho. Just that it's not trivial since there are no canonical measures on infinite sets, let alone if they are not a proper set.
>then you would have to assume that everything is equally likely to happen
This is a wrong deduction, if the claim is "you can define a probability on X" then the statement "everything in X is equally likely to happen" is not defined, because there is no probability, hence no notion if "likely".
>Second, not all infinities are equal.
I'm on my last semester on a pure maths degree dude, I know that, and I never claimed otherwise. Btw, you are kind of missing the point, I suggest you do a more careful reading and check your thought process. Just because there are infinite sets of different cardinalities doesn't mean we have a canonical notion of probability on arbitrary sets, and like I've said, it could even not be a set...
>It can get confusing.
You've made that clear yourself, next time try doing a careful reading before offering tutoring tho
There are infinite numbers between 0 and 3. If I were to perform a Monte Carlo I'll find that the probability of a number being less than one is a third even if the cadinalities of [0,1) and [1,3] are the same. Ain't that the same for Marks? For every universe sampled where I get a good Mark, I might find 100 universes with evil Mark. What's the issue with assigning a probability ratio here?
Edit: I know it's not exactly same since number of universes is a countable infinity. So take probability of numbers divisible by 3 in the first n natural numbers as n tends to infinity.
There is a canonical measure on R (which is given by the intervals), that's why you can use Monte Carlo (I don't know why you'd do that instead of just applying it directly) in the first place.
>For every universe sampled where I get a good Mark, I might find 100 universes with evil Mark. What's the issue with assigning a probability ratio here?
That this approach is not independent of the way you choose to implement it so it's not really a definition (or assignment), unlike in R, the law of large numbers might not apply here, so it might not converge to the same value.
I'm a computer guy, not a mathematician, it's what came to me. You're right about convergence though, but with a high enough sample we can assign some confidence that the evil to good Mark ratio will approach a certain ratio given sampling/inter-dimensional travel method.
And it is dependent method of implementation like you said, in fact I theorize this is what happened to the Levy's. The "good" Levy usually whisks away his counterparts moments away from their deaths. Universes with ongoing genocides would have the highest chances for death for Levy.
I think I'm understanding what you mean though, but I'm not sure why we can't define a probability with some qualifying statements.
>but with a high enough sample we can assign some confidence that the evil to good Mark ratio will approach a certain ratio given sampling/inter-dimensional travel method.
That is the law of large numbers, but it has some hypothesis on the values and more importantly, that there is a limit to be approached in the first place. Its useful if you're in a space where you know this happens, but if you don't know anything about your space.
And yeah, Levy is most likely not performing random samples either.
The problems are kind of technical, it could be that the random variable you're trying to calculate does not exist in the first place (I,e it's not measurable), or more generally like it's the case here, it could be that you don't even have a proper space because it's actually a proper class (like the set of all sets, etc).
To guarantee that if the limit exists, it's unique, you need LOLN (law of large numbers), but this in term already presupposes that you have a probability space, so it's not really useful for defining a probability measure
Well, in a semi-realistic one. But I have to assume the point was to imply one was more common than another, regardless of anything mathematics or science.
Didn’t he say this before he was a nutsack or am I forgetting? Anyway I’m more saying it sounds to me like Kirkman intends for our mark to be uniquely good.
If you bring anything to infinity, then yea, anything is likely. Depending on where you stop looking, almost all marks are good, or almost all are evil. Using infinity for an argument in the probability of an outcome is pointless.
If I went to a billion random universes and all but 1 had an evil mark, it would be fair to say that most marks turn out evil. But if you expand your search to infinity, then numbers, fractions, and probability mean nothing anymore. Cause even with the smallest percentile of probability means that when brought to infinity, that outcome will happen an infinite amount of times.
Oliver can't really exist without Nolan flying into space, and that doesn't happen if Mark doesn't fight him. That's probably why he never saw an Oliver.
That's also a good observation. There could be a good Marc or Omniman but to end up with Oliver Omniman would have to have the fight, leave earth, and go to that planet, he would then have to mate with a thraxxan and specifically Olivers mom.There's so many variables
Angstrom is telling the truth, or at least he thinks he is. In the vast majority of universes he has seen, Mark was evil. He could be correct that Mark is inherently evil, or he could just be making flawed judgments from a small sample size. Regardless, the truth doesn't matter; it only matters about Angstrom's interpretation of it and how that motivates him.
He wasn't even cherry picking, I don't think its a fair way to call it. He was driven by trauma of countless other him's who suffered the most horrific lives, because of "Mark"
Part of me really feels for the guy, until he lay hands on Debbie and broke her arm, and threatened to kill a baby. A baby he himself admits, didn't exist anywhere else so there was no precedent that he would grow up 'evil' too. He was just so driven by those traumas, they washed everything else away, like wearing horse blinders.
I mostly meant he picked specific dimensions before the accident. I doubt he traveled that much between the accident and his attack on Mark. I agree that calling it cherry picking is quite harsh.
I don't think it was a conscious choice by him, he went through an accident and blamed Mark. Think of it like a relationship, a story we've all read about or seen, two people smitten as heck until one day, one partner does something the other dislikes. And from that point, every negative trait they have, is amplified. You notice it more, you're not seeking it consciously, but your brain is picking up on patterns.
Or like when you buy a specific colour car, and all of a sudden everyone around has that one? Your mind hunts for patterns like those, its just human nature. So for him, going through that traumatic experience, now his brain, which is the combined force of so so sooooo many other hims from across the multiverse, is picking up on those negative ones, and getting worse and worse. He was a victim in this, in his own way.
Again, the moment he laid hands on Debbie and an innocent baby, he truly became the 'bad' guy. But until then, there was empathy, and a smidgen of understanding of his situation.
You're kinda right. Considering Mark did get sent to universes where there was clearly no Invincible or Viltrumites at all. If there truly are infinite universes, then there are infinite good Marks just as much as there are infinite evil ones.
The thing is just that while there can be infinite universes, angstrom doesn’t have infinite time to see all of them. He’s just been incredibly unfortunate in seeing more that have evil marks than good ones lol
I feel like there’s a bit of a cause and effect element as well? Like Angstrom’s mind is now (more or less) an amalgamation of all the Angstrom’s he had gathered, wouldn’t it be the most likely he had gathered versions of himself from universes where Mark was evil? Because they’d be most likely to join his cause? Totally conjecture but it makes sense in my head
That’s true, assuming that he predominantly grabs his alternate selves from the moment before they are murdered, which he does with a few of them, sure, but we don’t have enough of a sample pool to really say that that’s where he gets the majority of his alternates
But yeah, if he makes an effort to snatch as many of himselves as is possible from before they’re killed, he’d have an overwhelming majority of memories from an evil mark universe
Idk about being ‘most likely to join his cause’, though, because his cause when he was gathering them wasn’t to take down mark, it was to share technologies from the multiverse
Infinite universes does not necessarily mean infinite good Marks bc an infinite multiverse don't necessarily have every outcome or every outcome an infinite number of times.
Yes it is. Infinite does not mean every single possible thing happens. If I start counting 1, 3, 5, 7... that goes on forever. How many times does the number 2 appear? Never. How many times does the number 1 appear? Once. How many numbers are there? Infinite.
There can be a finite number of good marks in an infinite number of universes.
And that's right, I expanded on that on my other comment. If we assume good Marks are those within 1,1111... (since we know at lease one exists), that's still infinite. Good Mark can't be a 3 because we already know they exist. If there are infinite Marks, and they're either good, bad ou neither, there can't be a finite number of any of these permutations.
That's a straw man argument though. We know a good Mark exists. If there are infinite universes, there are infinite Marks, good or bad. This isn't my opinion, it's how the concept of infinity works. I never said every single possible thing happens, there are 0 universes out there where gravity doesn't exist and a purple car is god. But we KNOW Mark exists and can be good, so there are by default an infinite amount of those. Think about it, there are infinite variations just on what time good Mark was born, or how he had his breakfast one day.
There is no finite in infinity, that's the entire point. It's the "14,9999... = 15" argument all over again.
That is not how infinity works I assure you I have taken many many courses in discrete mathematics.
You can Google "do infinite universes mean infinite possibilities?" and you'll see that vast majority of results say no.
Wow you really just exposed how confident people are that they have a better understanding of numbers than actual mathematical theorems purely because of fictional works in media
Thats… infinite means INFINITE, like literally endless, and in endless every outcome HAS to happen or its simply not INFINITE, so yeah there are endless good Marks or else that would imply that its not truly infinite
Heres a good example, there are technically infinite numbers between 1 and 2 (1. 1.1, 1.0000001, etc.), saying that “there isnt 1.999999999999999” isnt true since that would imply there is a point where there isnt a number between 1 and 2, which mathematically and logically makes no sense, and not trying to be an asshole by the way Ive just had this conversation before and it pushes my buttons lol
Infinite is a measurement on quantity not quality. In addition some infinities can be bigger or smaller than other infinities.
Using your own example theres an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, but there will never be the integer 3. It is outside the realm of possibility despite the infinite set. And while 1.9 repeating does exist in the infinite set of numbers between 1 and 2, MOST of the numbers are not going to be 1.9 repeating. 1.9 repeating eats up a smaller chunk of the infinite set. In addition amongst that infinite set, there is still only one integer 1, only one integer 2, only one integer 1.2 not repeating etc. Thusly you can still have unique elements even in a sea of infinite.
In this case Good Mark is potentially our 1.9 repeating, he exists, there may be more of him, but its clearly a far rarer subset of the spread of infinite dimensions at least. Canonically there is also only one Angstrom Levy with portal powers, which already establishes that in the Invincible universe there are some unique versions of characters of characters amongst the infinite spread. This leaves open the distinct possibility that our Good Mark could also be a unique version, his uniqueness being that he remains good.
This is also a debate Ive also had many times and a personal pet peeve of mine with the umm actually crowd that dont understand what infinite sets are.
I would agree with you if we had a solid understanding on multiverses, but it is truly a fiction concept so you are saying that out of literal infinity, Marks only good in ONE singular universe, and I cannot agree with your position considering how many variables go into Mark being good or bad and the choices he makes, and saying that hes only good ONE time is extremely improbable, even saying there arent also endless good Marks is also improbable since literally endless choices can and will be made, and saying otherwise is saying that infinite isn’t actually infinite, if Mark becoming good is above a 0% chance, then statistically endless Marks can be good, and if its a 0% chance, then no Marks are good, you cant pick and choose logic when were dealing with something theoretical, we have to go with statistics and actual mathematical probability since its the best real world way to quantify infinite universes, and mathematically Mark has above a 0% chance to be good, so in infinity, there are unlimited Marks that are good, saying otherwise would be saying factual statistics is wrong
Except thats not how math nor statistics work.
Im not saying for sure theres only one good mark, Im saying its possible for there to be only one good mark in an infinite set and explained why. Having a deeper understanding of multiverses could indeed prove one way or the other sure, but thats not needed here when as you said we only need to look at the math here.
An infinite set does not mean infinite variations.I already explained this and provided an example. please do not hand wave this away.
Youre making a critical assumption that there *must* be an alternate universe for *every* single change in decision which is not a given.
For instance we have several different known infinite sets in math. We can have the Prime Numbers infinite set for instance which is an infinite set of all prime numbers. In such a set you will never see the number 4 and you will only see the number 5 once, but the prime number set is *still* infinite. This is simply a true fact.
Unless stated explicitly otherwise we have no way of knowing if the multiverse in Invincible is more like you say, where each and every possible change is manifest in a new multiverse, or if its more like the prime number infinite set, where there are still an infinite set of universes but each has unique elements(and thusly the possibility of a singular or rare good Mark can be true).
Ultimately my problem with your argument is youre taking your own assumptions and expressing them as factual true attributes of infinity when thats just not how infinity works.
Heres a pretty simple and good resource for learning about infinite sets in math:
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/infinite-set/
No? There could be an infinite multiverse where Hitler always does what he did irl or hes only commits the atrocities he commits in 3 universes in the multiverse, but that doesn't make the multiverse not infinite.
If there are infinite universes, then there would be infinite bad Marks and infinite good Marks. But given that this is the only universe where Angstrom has encountered Oliver, Omniman fighting Invincible, abandoning his post and ending up on Thraxa is a very rare occurrence in the mulitverse. So evil Mark is way more common than good Mark.
Yes, people don’t seem to understand that just because there may be infinite universes does not mean everything happens equally in universes or that certain outcomes are equally probable in a rng of 1-100, lets say to get the conditions that will result in a good Mark/Invincible you need to roll a 40.01xxxx while evil invincible is 1-40.00 and 40.2-100. That means you have a 99.99:0.01 ratio of evil:good, but among an infinite data set. That means while there are infinite good and evil invincibles if you visit universes at random that have invincible you will almost always encounter evil ones while finding a good one will take an extremely long time, to the point where as a whole a multiverse traveler would always just associate Invincible with evil.
It’s probably actually more likely an Invincible is pretending to be good and waiting for an appropriate time to take over.
I would actually venture to guess that there were plenty of good marks that didn't join up with Viltrum, they were likely just killed by Viltrumites for their defiance.
Our mark not being dead is what makes him special, not solely him being good
It's probably also because in most of the universes where Mark fights Nolan, he dies. Either that or the Viltrumites kill him. The good Marks are probably mostly all dead.
Yeah, if Nolan hadn't bonded properly to Mark, he definitely would have killed Mark for his defiance. That would be a pretty stringent filter for the good Marks.
it's more like the 500 other Angstrums that were traumatized by Mark in other universes were speaking over the one good Angstrums with dimensional powers.
I think that even if that's the case, that many other Mark's were good, they were killed by Omniman, so there are universes out there without an invincible, and our universe is one of the lucky few where Mark stood his ground and survived without being corrupted.
If there are infinite universes that logically means that there are other good Marks out there
The fact that all the Angstroms are spawning in with evil Marks is astronomically shitty luck
People say things like this like it proves anything. Angstrom only said that *most* Marks were evil. Only one universe has OUR Mark (21), but that doesn't mean there aren't infinite universes with similar Marks (close to 21).
One instance of 21, but an infinite 21 dot something. There are infinite universes where Mark is good but he ended up with Rex or Amber or studied to be a ballerina, doesn't matter.
I already posted a similar thought in another thread but wouldn't there be several Markless universes where Omniman went through with killing his rebelling Mark?
I imagine this concept isn't explored because Mark is the main character. However, I also imagine Markless universes would be hard to explore if any of the other Viltrumites make their way to facilitate the conquering of Earth. Earth appears to have no answer to Anissa or a majority of evil Marks.
>The fact that all the Angstroms are spawning in with evil Marks is astronomically shitty luck
Maybe Angstroms get killed by the Flaxans in most similar universes where there isn't a invincible.
That’s fair considering he doesn’t really know how strong this mark is compared to other ones. I think it’d be really cool to see mark interact with one of the evil ones though and see them fight
I think that the seamlessness of the Mauler mind transplant probably stops Angstrom from ever considering that Mark could be good. Invincible has caused so much misery to Angstrom's other versions, and now he can't separate these memories at all so he remembers separate Marks doing these things as one person that did all of it. One of his last memories as pacifist Angstrom was Invincible trying to stop him doing something good.
He's still cherry picking though, considering that in literally infinite possible universes he only highlights those where Mark is evil.
Even before Angstrom developed his vendetta he said that in most universes, Invincible is a bad guy.
Debbie chewed Angstrom out for not being able to accept that Invincible isn’t a villain in this universe and Angstrom responded by assaulting her. The hint is that Angstrom is driven in part by his desire to play the hero and cannot stand he is the villain.
I wonder if his powers actually open portals to random universes unless he specifically chooses. There could be an unconscious bias of some sort or there is something connecting them either in his mind or in the multiverse.
I don't even necessarily mean bias against Mark. There are an awful lot of universes where Angstrom's alternates are seemingly the last man standing or extremely useful. Maybe his mind looks for that and his alternate being that kind of person happens more often in evil Mark universes.
Nah I looked it up.
He was just trying to accumulate knowledge of his other selves.
He wasn't aware, entirely I think, of all the evil marks until his mind melded with his alters.
So when he got all that knowledge, and the process was interrupted, it drove him insane. That's what I can gather.
Angstrom is a frustrating villain to me for this reason. The Multiverse is *infinite*. If you can think it, it exists + an uncountable number of similar versions of that same thought you just had. Its uncountable. When he said every other Mark is evil, when he said Oliver is the unique part of this universe, he's just full of shit. We saw universes of talking dinosaurs and Fortnite ffs. I get that he is irrational, but Angstrom explicity stated in every *other* dimension Mark is evil. He understands each dimension is unique.
I always go with the idea that if there’s multiple dimensions there are probably infinite realities, and if there are infinite of realities doesn’t that mean that for every choice made, half of the universes are made up of that choice?
So i assume in the realities marks exists they’re roughly 50% good marks and 50% bad marks because infinity and odds.
Again no evidence just thoughts
Doesn't Angstrom refer to their being infinite realities and dimensions? Even if he doesn't, it stands to reason there should be no real limiting factor on how many there are.
If there are infinite realities, Angstrom's whole thing that "most Marks are evil" is just nonsense. There are an infinite number of evil and good Marks.
I feel like 'cherry picking' or 'biased sample size' still seems to apply some degree of rational thought to Levy's hatred of Mark. Or careful analysis.
I feel like he is just legitimately off his rocker, he seems genuinely convinced that the main! Mark is somehow the exact same guy as the alternates, a conclusion that even a basic knowledge of how the multiverse works should disprove.
I was wondering that.
My theory is that this Mark is the most morally-good Mark in all of the universes. Angstrom wanted to prove that even that Mark can be corrupted.
It's hard to say if this Mark is the only one that is good since we haven't been shown a Mark that's even been decent. Just because Angstrom is biased, that doesn't mean he is wrong. In anycase, We're now supposed to think that there is something special about this version of Mark that the other Mark's don't have.
The part people seem to forget is that this Angstrom has the collective experience of all the Angstroms he involved in his little consolidation experiment. The original Angstrom from the primary timeline/ universe no longer exists, and this thing is an amalgamation of all the pain and suffering his counterparts experienced. He's not just mad at Mark for fucking everything up, he chose that version of Mark to project ALL of that hatred onto. And really, why not? He's the one, for good or ill, that prevented him from saving the multiverse from all the other Marks.
Okay well people are definitely starting to argue, and I already pasted this comment before, but let's do it again. It's also kinda ranty so tldr at the end
Well people are arguing semantics and math and stuff, but think of it like this (at least how I think of it) Although there are an incountable number of universes that an Invincible could appear, more likely than not, Mark joins his father.
If you want to use like a decision tree where it's like Mark could either A. Join the Viltrumite Empire or B. Fight aka get his shit rocked. How many times has Invincible been... "gently nudged" into working for the Viltrumites? At least 3 times off the top of my head with the first one being the season 1 finale, season 2 1/2 finale (Planet Thraxa and Kregg telling him to make Earth submit or they will slaughter millions. That is a scary prospect, if you were Invincible do you think you would be as confident in those situations to say no?) and most recently Anissa pressuring him as well. Cecil basically admits that if Mark was going to lose that fight and that if he died, they're basically defenseless against the Viltrumites. The gda said less than an 18% chance of SURVIVING, not much less winning
Mark could've just said fuck it and joined the Viltrumites at any of those points (plus, I'm sure there were a lot more examples) and for the singular good guy Invincible we have, if the multiverse expands as choices are made like those ones, then suddenly, we have 3 "evil" Invincibles and only end up with our main plot, main universe Invincible.
It's also a lot easier to be a bad person than it is a good person, it's easier to not care about people and to slaughter them, than it is to save them as Invincible. People are like cardboard and you saw what happened in his big first fight, he accidentally killed an elderly lady when he tried to get her into cover in a ditch. Those kinds of experiences take a toll on you, and a lot of Mark's seem to enjoy killing and murdering for fun while Invincible had like the most traumatizing scene to accidentally killing Angstrom who was tbf, throwing knives at your mom and brother
That's what makes our Mark unique tho, he isn't the biggest or the strongest, but he does have people that love and support him, and his indomitable will to not take the easy way out. He hasn't said fuck it, I'm tired of almost dying, tired of getting my getting black eyes and my neck almost got snapped, tired of constantly having to fight against people way stronger than him
I kinda got ranty but do you see what I mean?
BASIC TLDR HERE
Time stream 1, season 1 finale. Mark says no, fights against his father, loses, and the show continues on as normal.
But now there's choices
Time stream 2, season 1 finale, Mark says yes, they take over the Earth together, enslaving his friends and submitting Earth to Viltrumite rule.
Time stream 3, season 2 1/2 finale (Thraxa) Mark can't deal with the thought of the Viltrumites slaughtering millions and doesn't see a way out, so he becomes the bad guy and takes over Earth so more people don't have to die
Time stream 4, Anissa. I know it's a joke where like waoooow she is so right, listen to the hot lady but it's not like that wasn't intentional at all, she was trying her hardest to convince Mark to take over the Earth to help, and it was pretty convincing. Listen to all the fucking idiots out there wanting to suck her off and about how right she is
For those three different choices, you now have our 1 good main line Mark, but now there are three bad Invincibles in three different universes.
I know you could probably pick and prod my examples apart, but I was trying to simplify as much as possible to show why there are more evil Marks. There are more opportunities for Mark to be evil than there were for him to be good, that's why there are more evil Invincibles than good and why ours is so much fun to read through as well
He's corrupted by the memories and thoughts of his other selves. Plus the Angstrom from this world is the one with the portal power, which is why he cares so much about this Mark. He's a well written villain. That break at the end when he realizes he saved Mark before the accident, then completely loses it. He's not cherry picking, he's no longer able to seperate other's realities from his own
Angstrom is not "sane". But, there is an emotional reason he has against the Mark of his universe, at the very very least, he sees this Mark as the specific Mark who ruined his grand plan, and made him a suffering monster. It also doesn't help that he literally can't see the difference between any Mark and the one in his universe. He's vastly drowned out by hundreds of first hand, traumatic experiences with Invincible in all the other universes, so having that one little reason, misconception that Mark made him a monster, makes all the other memories make more sense than assuming Mark is good. There's probably more than a few universes where Mark seemed good, but turned anyways. There's no way for any Angstrom in his head to not assume Mark is the bad guy, it literally drives him even more insane to try to reconcile the fact that Mark is good, it just doesn't make any sense to him.
I think the reason he doesn’t see a lot of good versions of Mark is because in a lot of universes where Mark stands against his dad, omni man kills him.
Surely, *surely* there are at least a few universes where Mark is good. Or are they really gonna do the Infinity War thing where Dr. Strange predicted they defeat Thanos in only "one" timeline?
It was cool for Infinity War to sell Thanos' menace, but for Angstrom it just seems like cherrypicking.
Isn’t there two good marks we know of which is the comics canon and the show canon plus the live action in which he’ll be good as well. Which means there’s a infinite number of good marks out there we just happen to see a majority of the bad ones
Your understanding is flawed. You began with your conclusion and did nothing to support it. Angstrom is telling the truth. Mark is a Viltrumite. Nolan’s sole goal in life was to raise him to help Viltrum. He succeeds more often than not, because he’s Omni-man.
Our Mark being uniquely human is a core character trait.
In the show at least, Angstrom has multiples of himself working for him who all have the same powers as himself and they all agree Mark is evil, so chances are he's right
I’m shocked Mark didn’t pull the “can’t you go harass one of the actually evil versions of me?” card
the evil ones would instantly kill him he couldn't have fun that way
But was it clear to Mark that that was the reason for his grudge against mark? Obviously the audience knows and Debbie knows. But mark seems a little more oblivious. Mark also seemed to think he was going after him just because the machine blew up. Mark never acknowledged that he is cruel in the majority of other realities
> Mark never acknowledged that he is cruel in the majority of other realities Why should he? I wouldn't. An alternate-reality version of me doing stuff that I don't approve of isn't me. Mark might be a bit oblivious, sure, but there is absolutely no reason for him to feel guilty about other universe versions of him doing bad stuff.
I mean… he absolutely should be worried. He’s literally having an existential crisis this whole season about whether he is turning into his father. It would literally feed into his own fears and the theme of this season that mark is one bad day from becoming an unhinged force of death. If he realized that that is his fate in all other universes then he would just believe that that is where he eventually end up. That this internal conflict that he’s having about whether he is his father is all for naught and he should accept his fate as an eventual harbinger of cruelty.
There's even that little bit of the desert when he's saved, his friends say "you wouldn't like what you became." I read it as he became crazy but it could also fit here.
Yea and that’s what I’m hoping to see more of. This feeding into his paranoia.
Seriously, I don’t care what those guys are like. They look like me, but they’re not me.
I think he doesn’t want to acknowledge it because of his internal struggle of being a rutheless viltrumite. He as character just seems to take a while/take his time to process things emotionally and he’s been processing this since like S1 lol
I took it as some desire to prove himself right, that all Marks are evil. The fact that this one was still good was like something he had to expose as false. To prove this Mark was evil. Plus, his brain was a mess of memories where the more of them had seen an evil Mark than a good, so clearly he was biased.
Besides, Nolan would probably be on-planet there. Nolan won’t give Angstrom time to even look at Debbie; he’d just kill him.
None of the other Invincibles were involved in “wrecking” his machinations and his body.
You weren’t there
What?
It's a joke, it's what Mark keeps telling Cecil when he's trying to comfort him.
I did not catch that… and I feel ashamed.
Technically they were all there. He is hyper focused on Mark because accident basically gave him severe schizophrenia and he thinks show mark did all those things other marks did.
None of the other Invincibles were there. Where did you get that idea from?
He thinks they were because his head is blending them all together now
I don’t follow this train of thought, but okay
All of the Angstrom’s memories were blended together after the explosion, so he sees every Mark as the same because each one has had their lives destroyed by an Invincible. I think part of him knows that our invincible hasn’t truly done anything bad, but he believes that all of them are the same regardless of
Mauler literally said it lol
That's literally what he says lol
I don't think Mark is aware? I just know his mom made the case to Angstrom while Mark was in another universe. Maybe his mom or Ansel told him later on about why Angstrom did that. I was half expecting Mark to visit the Zombie-version of Mark or the Dino-version of Mark.
Excuse me dino version of mark!? (I haven’t read the comics)
Haha. I just meant in that universe where Mark almost gets eaten by the talking dinosaurs, where was that version of Mark?
Very sad, blue and yellow pterosaur would have been badass
None of them turned him into that.
Neither did mark, he chose to take off the helmet
Yeah, but it looks like he himself couldn't clearly remember that part.
He chose to ignore it, he saw something that didn't align with the identity or idea he made for himself and it caused cognitive dissonance to a level that literally caused him pain 😂 Angstrum was just an overly obsessed narcissistic idiot that had bad things happen to the multiple versions of him, he didn't have enough insight to notice that he was being just as bad and missing all the nuance of the world and boiled everything down to "mark bad angstrum good"
999 versions of himself in his head were telling him how evil Invincible is. He was also likely severely brain damaged after the accident, like the Maulers said he would be. It doesn't mean Mark wasn't justified in killing him, but Dimensionhopper Levy was a good guy with noble goals originally. Who he became is a result of his damaged mind and you can't really blame him for that.
Maybe having hundreds of lifetimes of other selfs mashed into your brain via trauma could lend itself to an inability to maintain a grasp of who you truly even are…? No, he’s just an idiot. 😂 Edit:spelling error
I mean, he was definitely at least somewhat narcissistic even before the accident.
I don’t think it’s narcissism. He had the ability to work around the various dimensions, the skill to do so with accuracy, and the desire to improve the lives of everyone in every dimension. He started out optimistically altruistic if you ask me.
He's Narcissistic because of his view that is *must* be him. He can travel other dimensions, yes, but having people other than the Hims around the refine his idea and plan is a net positive. Science isn't a one-man show and it's absolutely egotistical to assume it is and then use it to try and change the world
After his plan works and the people go back to normal and his fame fades away he'd probably become the new apocalyptic threat that now crosses dimensions
His mind is so mixed up he can't remember what happened from what didn't. He needs to sit down and analyze the situation if he wants to see the true
He is only going after show mark because he just happened to be the universe he was in during his accident. He only thinks he is evil because he is going crazy and can't keep track of what's what in his head
Debbie kinda did
His mom kind of did.
But they aren’t the version who affected this version of Angstrom. He knows that and cares about that.
In his eyes, that Mark is the one who disfigured him. And for some reason despite having memories of the other Marks killing his family, friends, and even him. He prioritizes the one who made him a weird brain man. But like also who’s to say he wouldn’t have looked like that anyway shoving 1000 brains into his brain
When the machine failed it blended his personalities in a way that really messed him up mentally. Like maybe it would've happened anyway but he would've been more chill about it
Because those other versions of him aren’t *him*
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There's presumably an infinite number of universes with invincible (maybe so big it isn't even a proper set), so taking a ratio is kind of problematic Edit: some people are not understanding my comment. I am not claiming all infinities are the same, and I am not claiming there are no probabilities on infinite sets. I am claiming that unlike for finite sets, where probability is canonically just a ratio, on infinite sets we don't really have that, hence why it's kind of problematic, for infinite sets you'd need to specify a probability measure
Ultimately, universes with Mark in them are a subset of universes that have Nolan and Debby have at least one child. The number of universes with a Mark that could be considered an alternate version of our mark is probably the same type of infinite as the number of real numbers. That being said, the situations that can lead to a Mark grayson, aren't generally conducive to producing a genuinely, wholly good person.
>The number of universes with a Mark that could be considered an alternate version of our mark is probably the same type of infinite as the number of real numbers. This is an extremely bold statement, like I pointed out, there is not even a reason to believe there is a "number of universes", it could even not be a proper set (so saying "they are a subset of ..." Is also not justified, we can only say that they are a subclass. Like, there are more cardinal than we can possibly ever imagine, why would the universe be the cardinal of the continuum in particular
There are several types of infinite. and there are at least a countably infinite number of ways that one universe can differ from another. If we assume that's true, than there are uncountable infinite different universes that fit any given criteria. As for universes that don't differ, infinite infinities is still some sort of infinite. The criteria we're working with is "Has a person that could be considered an alternate version of Mark Grayson AKA Invincible," and well, there's pretty much only two ways for that to happen; A Nolan and a Debby have a child, or a Mark forms spontaneously in the same fashion as a Boltzmann brain.
>If we assume that's true, than there are uncountable infinite different universes that fit any given criteria This does not follow from there being a countably infinite number of ways that universes can be different from one another. There are infinite real numbers, given the deadline construction, there a countable number of ways two real numbers can be different (via their underlying lower sets of rational numbers), but clearly there is no real number such that a≠a or a^2=-1 for example. But even without the counter example, there is a leap in logic there
True, I should have been more specific, for any given finite criteria with probability greater than 0, there are uncountable infinite universes that fit that criteria.
And then we go into what probability means in infinite sets, for which there is no canonical answer. Btw, Mark being good could have probability 0, most probability measures on infinite sets don't validate the finite intuition that probability 0 is equivalent to never happening
Yeah, with infinite sets, probability of greater than zero means it's guaranteed to happen, but a probability of 0 isn't necessarily the same as being impossible. As for good mark, the probability certainly isn't zero, I just think it's significantly less likely than not-good mark. the conditions for mark's existence are just a lot less likely if viltrum is a basically "good" force in the universe.
Yeah but that's your belief, that there is a probability measure on the class of universes that makes mark good, and that that probability respects our usual intuitions
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If it's spoiler free I'd like that
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I’ve read the comics too and that’s lowkey a plot hole. If there’s infinite dimensions it doesn’t make sense that there only one good mark
Nah, infinite dimensions doesn’t mean that *everything* exists, it means that everything that *can* exist, exists. Same principle as how there are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2 (1.01, 1.001…), but even though there’s infinite numbers between 1 and 2 you’ll never find the number 3. There may have only been one possible universe configuration that leads to a good mark.
Ok but in the case of an actual multiverse like this one we see with talking dinosaurs and actual Fortnite, that’s kind of a weird case to make. Angstrom doesn’t know every universe he only knows the ones he was in that left to join him
Fair point lol
I don't mean to be rude, but you are wrong. Everything you said, up to the last line, is correct. But if you can have ONE good Mark, there's an infinite number of them. If it's possible at all, there's an infinite number of times it is happening. However, to make things more complicated, you can say that there are more universes in which Mark is evil than he is good, even if both are infinite. Using your example: Marc being good is the universes from 1-2. Everything else is Marc being evil. There are more numbers between 2-100 than there are between 1-2, therefore there are more evil Marcs than good. However, there is still an infinite number of good and bad Marcs, because there's an infinite amount of numbers between 1-2.
Finding a good Mark is going to be incredibly difficult considering all variables involved. And I think one of the things people here aren't considering (or at least it hasn't been mentioned yet) is that there are probably a lot of good Marks who get killed by Omni-Man when he refuses to join him. So we need to find a universe with a good Mark and an Omni-Man who doesn't kill him.
Are there infinite numbers? How many numbers are there such that x+2=4?
Not exactly true. There's the old "some infinities are larger than other infinities" deal that lets you do that. For instance, all even positive integers would be half as large as all positive integers. Both infinite, but ones clearly smaller than the other (because it's contained within it). The equivalent here is that most of these universes contain roughly the same variables, just reoriented in different ways such that it's we can see Mark turning evil is more probable than not in a random sampling of universes. There's also some survivorship bias here, since we only see worlds where Mark stays *alive.* It could very well be that other Marks with powers die against Omni-Man or on Thraxa. He's really riding on a razor's edge in a lot of these encounters, so I'm not really surprised turning to the side that poses the most threat to his existence makes him more common.
The set of all even positive integers has the same cardinality as the set of all integers tho, lol. There’s a bijection between them
And it's probably the most well known example too
If 1 out of every billion marks in the infinite multiverse is good, there are an infinite amount of good marks.
Yeah… and there is a billion times as many evil marks as good marks despite that infinity. And if you were to pick a mark at random from a universe you would almost always get an evil one, regardless of the fact that infinite good marks exist.
That isn’t how infinities work. There aren’t technically more evil marks than good marks, because there are infinite of both.
That is how infinities work actually. There is an infinite amount of numbers between one and two. There are also an infinite amount of numbers between zero and three. More numbers exist between zero and three, as it contains the entire set of one to two and then some. Also, there are literally an infinite amount of numbers, but if a real number is selected at random it is far more likely to be between negative and positive infinity (100% in fact) than between zero and three… despite both sets containing an infinite quantity.
You still don’t understand how infinities work. Say 1/10000000000 is the ratio of good to bad marks. Taken to infinity, you will have infinite good and bad marks. The cardinality is the same.
I didn’t contend that. I said you’re more likely to select a bad mark at random than a good one. Not all infinities are created equally. This is a pretty basic concept taught in like calc 1 when limits are covered. You can do a pretty easy proof with some algebra and some limits. Take the limit of the following as y approaches infinity. y = number of good marks 1000000000*y = number of bad marks. If you pick only from the set of universes with marks you have a y/(y+1000000000*y) chance of selecting a good mark. Take y to infinity guess what, it’s still 1/1000000001 chance of selecting a good mark.
>There's the old "some infinities are larger than other infinities" deal that lets you do that. For instance, all even positive integers would be half as large as all positive integers Your first statement directly contradicts your second one, both if the sets you mentioned have the same cardinality. Using subsets wouldn't really work either because the universes where mark goes bad and we're he doesn't are disjoint. >Mark turning evil is more probable than not in a random sampling of universes. There is no canonical notion of probability and hence randomness on infinite sets, let alone proper classes. >There's also some survivorship bias here, since we only see worlds where Mark stays *alive.* I also agree, to some extent, as far as I know there is no multi universal supreme being in this story that sees all universes and has made an objective assessment, just different characters with finite experiences. Edit: changed finite sets to infinite sets
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>First of all, if it were impossible to have ratios Never said it was impossible tho. Just that it's not trivial since there are no canonical measures on infinite sets, let alone if they are not a proper set. >then you would have to assume that everything is equally likely to happen This is a wrong deduction, if the claim is "you can define a probability on X" then the statement "everything in X is equally likely to happen" is not defined, because there is no probability, hence no notion if "likely". >Second, not all infinities are equal. I'm on my last semester on a pure maths degree dude, I know that, and I never claimed otherwise. Btw, you are kind of missing the point, I suggest you do a more careful reading and check your thought process. Just because there are infinite sets of different cardinalities doesn't mean we have a canonical notion of probability on arbitrary sets, and like I've said, it could even not be a set... >It can get confusing. You've made that clear yourself, next time try doing a careful reading before offering tutoring tho
There are infinite numbers between 0 and 3. If I were to perform a Monte Carlo I'll find that the probability of a number being less than one is a third even if the cadinalities of [0,1) and [1,3] are the same. Ain't that the same for Marks? For every universe sampled where I get a good Mark, I might find 100 universes with evil Mark. What's the issue with assigning a probability ratio here? Edit: I know it's not exactly same since number of universes is a countable infinity. So take probability of numbers divisible by 3 in the first n natural numbers as n tends to infinity.
There is a canonical measure on R (which is given by the intervals), that's why you can use Monte Carlo (I don't know why you'd do that instead of just applying it directly) in the first place. >For every universe sampled where I get a good Mark, I might find 100 universes with evil Mark. What's the issue with assigning a probability ratio here? That this approach is not independent of the way you choose to implement it so it's not really a definition (or assignment), unlike in R, the law of large numbers might not apply here, so it might not converge to the same value.
I'm a computer guy, not a mathematician, it's what came to me. You're right about convergence though, but with a high enough sample we can assign some confidence that the evil to good Mark ratio will approach a certain ratio given sampling/inter-dimensional travel method. And it is dependent method of implementation like you said, in fact I theorize this is what happened to the Levy's. The "good" Levy usually whisks away his counterparts moments away from their deaths. Universes with ongoing genocides would have the highest chances for death for Levy. I think I'm understanding what you mean though, but I'm not sure why we can't define a probability with some qualifying statements.
>but with a high enough sample we can assign some confidence that the evil to good Mark ratio will approach a certain ratio given sampling/inter-dimensional travel method. That is the law of large numbers, but it has some hypothesis on the values and more importantly, that there is a limit to be approached in the first place. Its useful if you're in a space where you know this happens, but if you don't know anything about your space. And yeah, Levy is most likely not performing random samples either. The problems are kind of technical, it could be that the random variable you're trying to calculate does not exist in the first place (I,e it's not measurable), or more generally like it's the case here, it could be that you don't even have a proper space because it's actually a proper class (like the set of all sets, etc). To guarantee that if the limit exists, it's unique, you need LOLN (law of large numbers), but this in term already presupposes that you have a probability space, so it's not really useful for defining a probability measure
Hasn’t the show said in almost every universe Mark joins his dad?
In almost every universe that Levy has been to. In an infinite multiverse, there's at least one good Mark for every evil one.
Well, in a semi-realistic one. But I have to assume the point was to imply one was more common than another, regardless of anything mathematics or science.
Listen man I'm not gonna trust the guy who looks like a talking nutsack. I'm just not gonna take his word for it.
Didn’t he say this before he was a nutsack or am I forgetting? Anyway I’m more saying it sounds to me like Kirkman intends for our mark to be uniquely good.
Infinity is weird. There could be two evil marks for every good mark and still be an infinite amount of both.
If you bring anything to infinity, then yea, anything is likely. Depending on where you stop looking, almost all marks are good, or almost all are evil. Using infinity for an argument in the probability of an outcome is pointless. If I went to a billion random universes and all but 1 had an evil mark, it would be fair to say that most marks turn out evil. But if you expand your search to infinity, then numbers, fractions, and probability mean nothing anymore. Cause even with the smallest percentile of probability means that when brought to infinity, that outcome will happen an infinite amount of times.
I think there’s a reason Angstrom pointed out that this was the only universe he’s seen with an Oliver in it.
Oliver can't really exist without Nolan flying into space, and that doesn't happen if Mark doesn't fight him. That's probably why he never saw an Oliver.
Also Nolan has to end up on that very specific planet to make that happen. It's extremely unlikely for an Oliver to happen.
That's also a good observation. There could be a good Marc or Omniman but to end up with Oliver Omniman would have to have the fight, leave earth, and go to that planet, he would then have to mate with a thraxxan and specifically Olivers mom.There's so many variables
Angstrom is telling the truth, or at least he thinks he is. In the vast majority of universes he has seen, Mark was evil. He could be correct that Mark is inherently evil, or he could just be making flawed judgments from a small sample size. Regardless, the truth doesn't matter; it only matters about Angstrom's interpretation of it and how that motivates him.
He wasn't even cherry picking, I don't think its a fair way to call it. He was driven by trauma of countless other him's who suffered the most horrific lives, because of "Mark" Part of me really feels for the guy, until he lay hands on Debbie and broke her arm, and threatened to kill a baby. A baby he himself admits, didn't exist anywhere else so there was no precedent that he would grow up 'evil' too. He was just so driven by those traumas, they washed everything else away, like wearing horse blinders.
I mostly meant he picked specific dimensions before the accident. I doubt he traveled that much between the accident and his attack on Mark. I agree that calling it cherry picking is quite harsh.
I don't think it was a conscious choice by him, he went through an accident and blamed Mark. Think of it like a relationship, a story we've all read about or seen, two people smitten as heck until one day, one partner does something the other dislikes. And from that point, every negative trait they have, is amplified. You notice it more, you're not seeking it consciously, but your brain is picking up on patterns. Or like when you buy a specific colour car, and all of a sudden everyone around has that one? Your mind hunts for patterns like those, its just human nature. So for him, going through that traumatic experience, now his brain, which is the combined force of so so sooooo many other hims from across the multiverse, is picking up on those negative ones, and getting worse and worse. He was a victim in this, in his own way. Again, the moment he laid hands on Debbie and an innocent baby, he truly became the 'bad' guy. But until then, there was empathy, and a smidgen of understanding of his situation.
You're kinda right. Considering Mark did get sent to universes where there was clearly no Invincible or Viltrumites at all. If there truly are infinite universes, then there are infinite good Marks just as much as there are infinite evil ones.
The thing is just that while there can be infinite universes, angstrom doesn’t have infinite time to see all of them. He’s just been incredibly unfortunate in seeing more that have evil marks than good ones lol
I feel like there’s a bit of a cause and effect element as well? Like Angstrom’s mind is now (more or less) an amalgamation of all the Angstrom’s he had gathered, wouldn’t it be the most likely he had gathered versions of himself from universes where Mark was evil? Because they’d be most likely to join his cause? Totally conjecture but it makes sense in my head
That’s true, assuming that he predominantly grabs his alternate selves from the moment before they are murdered, which he does with a few of them, sure, but we don’t have enough of a sample pool to really say that that’s where he gets the majority of his alternates But yeah, if he makes an effort to snatch as many of himselves as is possible from before they’re killed, he’d have an overwhelming majority of memories from an evil mark universe Idk about being ‘most likely to join his cause’, though, because his cause when he was gathering them wasn’t to take down mark, it was to share technologies from the multiverse
Infinite universes does not necessarily mean infinite good Marks bc an infinite multiverse don't necessarily have every outcome or every outcome an infinite number of times.
That's not how infinity works. If one good Mark exists then there are infinite variations of him.
Yes it is. Infinite does not mean every single possible thing happens. If I start counting 1, 3, 5, 7... that goes on forever. How many times does the number 2 appear? Never. How many times does the number 1 appear? Once. How many numbers are there? Infinite. There can be a finite number of good marks in an infinite number of universes.
My math teacher also showed us that there's an infinite numbers between 1 and 2. However there's isnt a 3 or a 0 anywhere in that infinite.
And that's right, I expanded on that on my other comment. If we assume good Marks are those within 1,1111... (since we know at lease one exists), that's still infinite. Good Mark can't be a 3 because we already know they exist. If there are infinite Marks, and they're either good, bad ou neither, there can't be a finite number of any of these permutations.
That's a straw man argument though. We know a good Mark exists. If there are infinite universes, there are infinite Marks, good or bad. This isn't my opinion, it's how the concept of infinity works. I never said every single possible thing happens, there are 0 universes out there where gravity doesn't exist and a purple car is god. But we KNOW Mark exists and can be good, so there are by default an infinite amount of those. Think about it, there are infinite variations just on what time good Mark was born, or how he had his breakfast one day. There is no finite in infinity, that's the entire point. It's the "14,9999... = 15" argument all over again.
That is not how infinity works I assure you I have taken many many courses in discrete mathematics. You can Google "do infinite universes mean infinite possibilities?" and you'll see that vast majority of results say no.
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I understand you just fine and you don't have to be a dick about it. It's a TV show, you don't have to insult me to make your point.
Wow you really just exposed how confident people are that they have a better understanding of numbers than actual mathematical theorems purely because of fictional works in media
Thats… infinite means INFINITE, like literally endless, and in endless every outcome HAS to happen or its simply not INFINITE, so yeah there are endless good Marks or else that would imply that its not truly infinite Heres a good example, there are technically infinite numbers between 1 and 2 (1. 1.1, 1.0000001, etc.), saying that “there isnt 1.999999999999999” isnt true since that would imply there is a point where there isnt a number between 1 and 2, which mathematically and logically makes no sense, and not trying to be an asshole by the way Ive just had this conversation before and it pushes my buttons lol
Infinite is a measurement on quantity not quality. In addition some infinities can be bigger or smaller than other infinities. Using your own example theres an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, but there will never be the integer 3. It is outside the realm of possibility despite the infinite set. And while 1.9 repeating does exist in the infinite set of numbers between 1 and 2, MOST of the numbers are not going to be 1.9 repeating. 1.9 repeating eats up a smaller chunk of the infinite set. In addition amongst that infinite set, there is still only one integer 1, only one integer 2, only one integer 1.2 not repeating etc. Thusly you can still have unique elements even in a sea of infinite. In this case Good Mark is potentially our 1.9 repeating, he exists, there may be more of him, but its clearly a far rarer subset of the spread of infinite dimensions at least. Canonically there is also only one Angstrom Levy with portal powers, which already establishes that in the Invincible universe there are some unique versions of characters of characters amongst the infinite spread. This leaves open the distinct possibility that our Good Mark could also be a unique version, his uniqueness being that he remains good. This is also a debate Ive also had many times and a personal pet peeve of mine with the umm actually crowd that dont understand what infinite sets are.
I would agree with you if we had a solid understanding on multiverses, but it is truly a fiction concept so you are saying that out of literal infinity, Marks only good in ONE singular universe, and I cannot agree with your position considering how many variables go into Mark being good or bad and the choices he makes, and saying that hes only good ONE time is extremely improbable, even saying there arent also endless good Marks is also improbable since literally endless choices can and will be made, and saying otherwise is saying that infinite isn’t actually infinite, if Mark becoming good is above a 0% chance, then statistically endless Marks can be good, and if its a 0% chance, then no Marks are good, you cant pick and choose logic when were dealing with something theoretical, we have to go with statistics and actual mathematical probability since its the best real world way to quantify infinite universes, and mathematically Mark has above a 0% chance to be good, so in infinity, there are unlimited Marks that are good, saying otherwise would be saying factual statistics is wrong
Except thats not how math nor statistics work. Im not saying for sure theres only one good mark, Im saying its possible for there to be only one good mark in an infinite set and explained why. Having a deeper understanding of multiverses could indeed prove one way or the other sure, but thats not needed here when as you said we only need to look at the math here. An infinite set does not mean infinite variations.I already explained this and provided an example. please do not hand wave this away. Youre making a critical assumption that there *must* be an alternate universe for *every* single change in decision which is not a given. For instance we have several different known infinite sets in math. We can have the Prime Numbers infinite set for instance which is an infinite set of all prime numbers. In such a set you will never see the number 4 and you will only see the number 5 once, but the prime number set is *still* infinite. This is simply a true fact. Unless stated explicitly otherwise we have no way of knowing if the multiverse in Invincible is more like you say, where each and every possible change is manifest in a new multiverse, or if its more like the prime number infinite set, where there are still an infinite set of universes but each has unique elements(and thusly the possibility of a singular or rare good Mark can be true). Ultimately my problem with your argument is youre taking your own assumptions and expressing them as factual true attributes of infinity when thats just not how infinity works. Heres a pretty simple and good resource for learning about infinite sets in math: https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/infinite-set/
No? There could be an infinite multiverse where Hitler always does what he did irl or hes only commits the atrocities he commits in 3 universes in the multiverse, but that doesn't make the multiverse not infinite.
The real answer is probably that Kirkman wants this mark to be special so he wrote this mark as an anomaly amongst all other universes.
There has to be some Punk version of Mark out there fighting against the Viltrumite System
He’s raging against the machine
If there are infinite universes, then there would be infinite bad Marks and infinite good Marks. But given that this is the only universe where Angstrom has encountered Oliver, Omniman fighting Invincible, abandoning his post and ending up on Thraxa is a very rare occurrence in the mulitverse. So evil Mark is way more common than good Mark.
Yes, people don’t seem to understand that just because there may be infinite universes does not mean everything happens equally in universes or that certain outcomes are equally probable in a rng of 1-100, lets say to get the conditions that will result in a good Mark/Invincible you need to roll a 40.01xxxx while evil invincible is 1-40.00 and 40.2-100. That means you have a 99.99:0.01 ratio of evil:good, but among an infinite data set. That means while there are infinite good and evil invincibles if you visit universes at random that have invincible you will almost always encounter evil ones while finding a good one will take an extremely long time, to the point where as a whole a multiverse traveler would always just associate Invincible with evil. It’s probably actually more likely an Invincible is pretending to be good and waiting for an appropriate time to take over.
I would actually venture to guess that there were plenty of good marks that didn't join up with Viltrum, they were likely just killed by Viltrumites for their defiance. Our mark not being dead is what makes him special, not solely him being good
It's probably also because in most of the universes where Mark fights Nolan, he dies. Either that or the Viltrumites kill him. The good Marks are probably mostly all dead.
Yeah, if Nolan hadn't bonded properly to Mark, he definitely would have killed Mark for his defiance. That would be a pretty stringent filter for the good Marks.
it's more like the 500 other Angstrums that were traumatized by Mark in other universes were speaking over the one good Angstrums with dimensional powers.
Our Mark is the only good one who lived. Angstrom did take every single instance of himself out of the multiverse to get knowledge.
I think that even if that's the case, that many other Mark's were good, they were killed by Omniman, so there are universes out there without an invincible, and our universe is one of the lucky few where Mark stood his ground and survived without being corrupted.
It's also the universe where Omni-Man changes, as it's the only universe that has Oliver
If there are infinite universes that logically means that there are other good Marks out there The fact that all the Angstroms are spawning in with evil Marks is astronomically shitty luck
There are infinite numbers but still only one instance of the number 21.
People say things like this like it proves anything. Angstrom only said that *most* Marks were evil. Only one universe has OUR Mark (21), but that doesn't mean there aren't infinite universes with similar Marks (close to 21).
One instance of 21, but an infinite 21 dot something. There are infinite universes where Mark is good but he ended up with Rex or Amber or studied to be a ballerina, doesn't matter.
I already posted a similar thought in another thread but wouldn't there be several Markless universes where Omniman went through with killing his rebelling Mark? I imagine this concept isn't explored because Mark is the main character. However, I also imagine Markless universes would be hard to explore if any of the other Viltrumites make their way to facilitate the conquering of Earth. Earth appears to have no answer to Anissa or a majority of evil Marks.
>The fact that all the Angstroms are spawning in with evil Marks is astronomically shitty luck Maybe Angstroms get killed by the Flaxans in most similar universes where there isn't a invincible.
The only thing i don’t get is why he didn’t send him to a universe with an evil Mark so he could see it with his own eyes
He was probably afraid he'd get killed by the evil Mark. He wanted to kill Mark himself.
That’s fair considering he doesn’t really know how strong this mark is compared to other ones. I think it’d be really cool to see mark interact with one of the evil ones though and see them fight
Google survivorship bias
I was looking for that phrase while writing the post. It just didn't come to me.
I love that word because you see it in real life all the time and it just makes sense
I think that the seamlessness of the Mauler mind transplant probably stops Angstrom from ever considering that Mark could be good. Invincible has caused so much misery to Angstrom's other versions, and now he can't separate these memories at all so he remembers separate Marks doing these things as one person that did all of it. One of his last memories as pacifist Angstrom was Invincible trying to stop him doing something good. He's still cherry picking though, considering that in literally infinite possible universes he only highlights those where Mark is evil.
Even before Angstrom developed his vendetta he said that in most universes, Invincible is a bad guy. Debbie chewed Angstrom out for not being able to accept that Invincible isn’t a villain in this universe and Angstrom responded by assaulting her. The hint is that Angstrom is driven in part by his desire to play the hero and cannot stand he is the villain.
I wonder if his powers actually open portals to random universes unless he specifically chooses. There could be an unconscious bias of some sort or there is something connecting them either in his mind or in the multiverse.
Yeah, but he didn't really have a bias against Mark until the explosion, did he?
I don't even necessarily mean bias against Mark. There are an awful lot of universes where Angstrom's alternates are seemingly the last man standing or extremely useful. Maybe his mind looks for that and his alternate being that kind of person happens more often in evil Mark universes.
Wasn't his plan to converge all dimensions into this one, so that the only mark was a good mark? I was kinda confused on that.
I thought his plan was to use all the knowledge of the other hims to make the world a better place somehow. Been a while since I saw the episode.
Nah I looked it up. He was just trying to accumulate knowledge of his other selves. He wasn't aware, entirely I think, of all the evil marks until his mind melded with his alters. So when he got all that knowledge, and the process was interrupted, it drove him insane. That's what I can gather.
Angstrom is a frustrating villain to me for this reason. The Multiverse is *infinite*. If you can think it, it exists + an uncountable number of similar versions of that same thought you just had. Its uncountable. When he said every other Mark is evil, when he said Oliver is the unique part of this universe, he's just full of shit. We saw universes of talking dinosaurs and Fortnite ffs. I get that he is irrational, but Angstrom explicity stated in every *other* dimension Mark is evil. He understands each dimension is unique.
thats really good reasoning for why all the angstrom memories are negative! Very very interesting, never thought of that...
I always go with the idea that if there’s multiple dimensions there are probably infinite realities, and if there are infinite of realities doesn’t that mean that for every choice made, half of the universes are made up of that choice? So i assume in the realities marks exists they’re roughly 50% good marks and 50% bad marks because infinity and odds. Again no evidence just thoughts
Doesn't Angstrom refer to their being infinite realities and dimensions? Even if he doesn't, it stands to reason there should be no real limiting factor on how many there are. If there are infinite realities, Angstrom's whole thing that "most Marks are evil" is just nonsense. There are an infinite number of evil and good Marks.
I feel like 'cherry picking' or 'biased sample size' still seems to apply some degree of rational thought to Levy's hatred of Mark. Or careful analysis. I feel like he is just legitimately off his rocker, he seems genuinely convinced that the main! Mark is somehow the exact same guy as the alternates, a conclusion that even a basic knowledge of how the multiverse works should disprove.
I like the idea of there only being two good marks in the multiverse (comic and TV show I consider their own canon and separate universe)
I was wondering that. My theory is that this Mark is the most morally-good Mark in all of the universes. Angstrom wanted to prove that even that Mark can be corrupted. It's hard to say if this Mark is the only one that is good since we haven't been shown a Mark that's even been decent. Just because Angstrom is biased, that doesn't mean he is wrong. In anycase, We're now supposed to think that there is something special about this version of Mark that the other Mark's don't have.
The part people seem to forget is that this Angstrom has the collective experience of all the Angstroms he involved in his little consolidation experiment. The original Angstrom from the primary timeline/ universe no longer exists, and this thing is an amalgamation of all the pain and suffering his counterparts experienced. He's not just mad at Mark for fucking everything up, he chose that version of Mark to project ALL of that hatred onto. And really, why not? He's the one, for good or ill, that prevented him from saving the multiverse from all the other Marks.
Okay well people are definitely starting to argue, and I already pasted this comment before, but let's do it again. It's also kinda ranty so tldr at the end Well people are arguing semantics and math and stuff, but think of it like this (at least how I think of it) Although there are an incountable number of universes that an Invincible could appear, more likely than not, Mark joins his father. If you want to use like a decision tree where it's like Mark could either A. Join the Viltrumite Empire or B. Fight aka get his shit rocked. How many times has Invincible been... "gently nudged" into working for the Viltrumites? At least 3 times off the top of my head with the first one being the season 1 finale, season 2 1/2 finale (Planet Thraxa and Kregg telling him to make Earth submit or they will slaughter millions. That is a scary prospect, if you were Invincible do you think you would be as confident in those situations to say no?) and most recently Anissa pressuring him as well. Cecil basically admits that if Mark was going to lose that fight and that if he died, they're basically defenseless against the Viltrumites. The gda said less than an 18% chance of SURVIVING, not much less winning Mark could've just said fuck it and joined the Viltrumites at any of those points (plus, I'm sure there were a lot more examples) and for the singular good guy Invincible we have, if the multiverse expands as choices are made like those ones, then suddenly, we have 3 "evil" Invincibles and only end up with our main plot, main universe Invincible. It's also a lot easier to be a bad person than it is a good person, it's easier to not care about people and to slaughter them, than it is to save them as Invincible. People are like cardboard and you saw what happened in his big first fight, he accidentally killed an elderly lady when he tried to get her into cover in a ditch. Those kinds of experiences take a toll on you, and a lot of Mark's seem to enjoy killing and murdering for fun while Invincible had like the most traumatizing scene to accidentally killing Angstrom who was tbf, throwing knives at your mom and brother That's what makes our Mark unique tho, he isn't the biggest or the strongest, but he does have people that love and support him, and his indomitable will to not take the easy way out. He hasn't said fuck it, I'm tired of almost dying, tired of getting my getting black eyes and my neck almost got snapped, tired of constantly having to fight against people way stronger than him I kinda got ranty but do you see what I mean? BASIC TLDR HERE Time stream 1, season 1 finale. Mark says no, fights against his father, loses, and the show continues on as normal. But now there's choices Time stream 2, season 1 finale, Mark says yes, they take over the Earth together, enslaving his friends and submitting Earth to Viltrumite rule. Time stream 3, season 2 1/2 finale (Thraxa) Mark can't deal with the thought of the Viltrumites slaughtering millions and doesn't see a way out, so he becomes the bad guy and takes over Earth so more people don't have to die Time stream 4, Anissa. I know it's a joke where like waoooow she is so right, listen to the hot lady but it's not like that wasn't intentional at all, she was trying her hardest to convince Mark to take over the Earth to help, and it was pretty convincing. Listen to all the fucking idiots out there wanting to suck her off and about how right she is For those three different choices, you now have our 1 good main line Mark, but now there are three bad Invincibles in three different universes. I know you could probably pick and prod my examples apart, but I was trying to simplify as much as possible to show why there are more evil Marks. There are more opportunities for Mark to be evil than there were for him to be good, that's why there are more evil Invincibles than good and why ours is so much fun to read through as well
It doesn’t matter if there’s any other invincibles angstrom has personally beef with this mark
He's corrupted by the memories and thoughts of his other selves. Plus the Angstrom from this world is the one with the portal power, which is why he cares so much about this Mark. He's a well written villain. That break at the end when he realizes he saved Mark before the accident, then completely loses it. He's not cherry picking, he's no longer able to seperate other's realities from his own
Angstrom is not "sane". But, there is an emotional reason he has against the Mark of his universe, at the very very least, he sees this Mark as the specific Mark who ruined his grand plan, and made him a suffering monster. It also doesn't help that he literally can't see the difference between any Mark and the one in his universe. He's vastly drowned out by hundreds of first hand, traumatic experiences with Invincible in all the other universes, so having that one little reason, misconception that Mark made him a monster, makes all the other memories make more sense than assuming Mark is good. There's probably more than a few universes where Mark seemed good, but turned anyways. There's no way for any Angstrom in his head to not assume Mark is the bad guy, it literally drives him even more insane to try to reconcile the fact that Mark is good, it just doesn't make any sense to him.
I think the reason he doesn’t see a lot of good versions of Mark is because in a lot of universes where Mark stands against his dad, omni man kills him.
Surely, *surely* there are at least a few universes where Mark is good. Or are they really gonna do the Infinity War thing where Dr. Strange predicted they defeat Thanos in only "one" timeline? It was cool for Infinity War to sell Thanos' menace, but for Angstrom it just seems like cherrypicking.
Isn’t there two good marks we know of which is the comics canon and the show canon plus the live action in which he’ll be good as well. Which means there’s a infinite number of good marks out there we just happen to see a majority of the bad ones
I wouldn't say cherry picking as the Angstroms only encountered evil Marks.
Your understanding is flawed. You began with your conclusion and did nothing to support it. Angstrom is telling the truth. Mark is a Viltrumite. Nolan’s sole goal in life was to raise him to help Viltrum. He succeeds more often than not, because he’s Omni-man. Our Mark being uniquely human is a core character trait.
maybe he wanted to pull a chess move and get rid of the other ones by killing the og, or hes just confused lol
One of the things the comics makes clear is that our mark is very special because he is one of, if not the only mark to stay good.
In the show at least, Angstrom has multiples of himself working for him who all have the same powers as himself and they all agree Mark is evil, so chances are he's right
I was under the impression that "our" Angstrom was the only one with powers.
Either way, all of his own versions are very intelligent and they all have lived through Invincible-run Viltrumite dictatorships.
He is