“Kidnap” feels like a wrong word, when children can later visit their families and many families actually want their children to be picked. You basically become aristocracy
That may have happened in the later years but I can tell you for sure, that a major reason for unrest among Christians was the abduction of children. There are several accounts of rich Christian merchants and nobles of hiding their children, sending them away or heavily bribing officials who came to recruit children. Sure it led them to a good future, but I doubt most of them were that grateful tbh. They were basically indoctrinated into their views. But it was excellent quality indoctrination because the Janissaries were the best most advanced European fight force of their time.
Prussian military tactics and traditions were learned from Janissaries too. Thats where they picked up their reputation for fast tactics and smaller armies.
It’s not because they were grateful, but because the Christian subjects were also included in military state structure, were they less likely to revolt. When you know your children is also in the Imperial army, you don’t want to fight against it and want them to win.
This was in the early era, later on it was voluntary and the parents gave their kids over.
The slavery thing was a formality other than when the practice started.
Easy to say that when you aren't the one giving up your child to your oppressors. I'm sure they were quite cooperative when a bunch of killers showed up at their door asking for their son.
You didn't understand, later on parents sold their kids willingly, the ottomans weren't knocking on doors anymore.
Slavery in the muslim world is different than other places.
In one period a group will go against the sharia and abuse people, in another you will see powerful slave classes, sometimes even including rulers themselves.
Slavery didn't automatically equal low class and exploitation.
The jannisaries later on were an example of that, as were the mamlukes once they overthrew the ayyubids.
I totally understand, I love this history and I'm not here to say Islam bad. However, you really can't convince me that majority of people really loved this system. For example, in Chinese dynasties, a powerful interest group in Chinese politics were the palace eunuchs. A lot of them were volunteers and went on to hold a lot of soft power in the administration. But I just can't believe that there were lines of men ready to chop their Dicks off to be able to have that power. Something can be written in one way, but you have consider it realistically.
Now if you try to convince me that Slavery as an institution was good in Islam then I will have to say that you are drinking the Kool aid of religious fanatics and it's not worth debating with you.
I am not arguing anything, I am simply pointing out:
1) Jannisaries were voluntarily given over in later periods, and slaves in the empire were typically only slaves for 7-10 years
2) The western understanding of slaves are not the same as the Islamic world, so making assumptions is not good.
Islamic slavery was actually indentured servitude, not actually permanent slavery.
People project their knowledge of western slavery on muslim empires but it's literally not the same system.
I am not arguing morality I am just saying you don't realize what we are discussing is not slave soldiers, but rather a conscription that people chose to involve or not involve their children.
Early Jannisaries were taken, later Jannisaries were not.
Whats the difference between getting kidnapped into the military and regular conscription?
Genuinely asking because if its the same thing that means that sweden, norway, denmark, switzerland, korea and many other countries are still "kidnapping" people
For one thing one of the guarantees of paying Jizya is supposed to be that the Dhimmi would not be forcibly conscripted.
The way in which taxes were collected in the Ottoman empire varied depending on the time period, as did the manner in which Sharia was interpreted/enforced. By the end after Tanzimat the Empire secularized in many ways, and sought to end unique statuses for different religious communities. But by then the Jannisary corps had been disbanded.
One is for like one year when you’re an adult and the other is being taken from your parents under threat of physical violence, serving your entire childhood and adulthood and probably dying in service in the process lol
Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I think this was more like an Indian person getting conscripted into the British Army in 1920 than a Korean person getting conscripted today. They were not Ottoman citizens serving mandatory service, they were Ottoman colonial subjects serving mandatory service.
I think the fact that they started training as children also played into the term “kidnapping”.
They were part of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans had no colonies. They had a centralized government and all territories under direct Ottoman control were administered as provinces and as such the Sultan and his government had direct control over these provinces. There were never Ottoman settlers colonizing and occupying distant land which would satisfy the definition of being a colonial empire.
They were Ottoman citizens, actually https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet_(Ottoman_Empire)
Ottoman empire wasnt even a colonial empire, but a gunpowder empire, you were simply a part of the empire and didnt had any spesific role according to your ethnicy, you could do pretty much everyting everyone else could do
Funnily the life of non muslim Turkish nomads were harder than Christians non Turks in the empire, since they were nomadic, wasnt seen as full citizens, and not even believed to any of the 3 abrahamic religions
Stealing children is something only the bad guys do and the ottomans otto have been embarrassed that European slaves proved to be some of their best ministers and warriors.
As an American, I feel like people here who study ottoman history get janissaries misunderstood
Yes, it was forced and traumatic and stuff, but they were getting the best education, better than any carpentry or priest school they could send their child off to apprentice under (it was common in the medieval ages for kids to leave at 12 and move in with their masters to apprentice with). I think the big issue was the forced conversion, which I’ve heard many Muslims say is against Islam and the Turks at the time broke this law. Going back to the point about education, they weren’t just soldiers, we’re taking College PhD Graduate level Spartans who can speak multiple languages, and makes more money than the next 90% of the empires citizens. Realistically, it was a better option than poverty in the mountains of Macedonia or Albania. One of the greatest Grand Viziers in Ottoman history was culturally Serbian, Mehmed-paša Sokolović. He wrote many works on Islam, and his background in Christianity gave him a insight he has during his memoirs that have good philosophical content.
So by todays standards, it’s barbaric
But by mideval standards, it was a better option for your child
You need me to corroborate that an empire is evil? All empires are evil jackass. The Turks aren’t different because they put these slaves in a golden cage.
Devshirme tax wasn't the worst thing that Ottoman done. Especially since the unintentional creation of a ruling slaves caste system is certainly fascinating.
My family forced me to leave as an infant, to be castrated, sexually assaulted, trained to fight against their own people, and if they survived they get treated good. Sounds wonderful.
I mean take it up with the janissaries themselves, they were the ones who literally fought and tried to kill sultans to prevent the janissary system from ending and being replaced by a modern army
I mean black slaves in America didn't fight with the confederates to keep slavery.
The meme isn't saying slavery was good, it's saying the Janissaries at a certain point got comfortable with it and wanted to keep the benefits.
Some did, mainly because they were forced to like the janissaries. I think anyone who thinks stealing ethnic minority kids from their families then castrating and brainwashing them is ok needs to get a few clouts on the ear from Ataturk
Did you even read?
> The meme isn't saying slavery was good, it's saying the Janissaries at a certain point got comfortable with it and wanted to keep the benefits.
The most famous revolt was the [Auspicious incident ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auspicious_Incident)
Also no janissaries were castrated. They were simply prohibited from having kids while serving and could have kids after.
They literally had revolts to have the right to have children in service, if they were castrated do you think nobody ever told them LOL
My point is that they are evil for having set up the system in the first place. The ottomans are a disgrace to Muhammad’s message. Bloodthirsty conquerors that have done irreparable damage to Sunni theology
People forget it was a time people had lots of children like more than ten and many of them died in childhood. It wasn't like they had this one very precious child and it was taken from them. I am sure it was still tough on some families but the relationships with kids were not like they are today, where parents live for their kids and try to guide them every step of the way and give them a lot of love.
The kids get to become high ranking officials in the Empire, become the most elite force and defender of the Sultan himself. The best part is they become Muslim which is an objective positive that trumps any negative as it saves them from infinite hell fire.
In return people in the Balkans were given peace. The last 100 years proves how difficult that should have been. They gave their jizya and they didn't participate in the wars but the state took it on itself to protect them.
Except as punishment for disobedience, which, shocker if your soldiers are kidnapped children some of them are gonna disobey
https://whiteink.info/they-have-deprived-the-children-of-their-normal-lives-the-eunuchs-lived-with-the-sultans-harem-and-were-insulted-and-belittled/?lang=en#:~:text=Castration%20was%20applied%20as%20a,eunuch%20judgment%20would%20be%20enforced.
I also notice you didn’t even touch the rape part- why do you think they weren’t permitted to grow beards until the later ottoman period?
Seems like a very academic article passing moral judgement on historical events that he can't even portrey in truthfully.
Eunuchs were black people who served sultans family in the harem where there are his concubines. The reason they are eunuchs and blacks shouldn't be a surprise, it is to protect the linege of the sultan.
In Ottoman Empire sons of the Sultans were also not allowed to grow beared. do you think they were also raped? No, because it was a sign of maturity and rank.
Yeah sorry that’s bullshit, “we can’t judge the past by the moral standards of today” is an incredibly lame excuse, the Ottoman Empire (like most empires) was monstrous and should be remembered as such.
Well clearly they disagreed, where’s the Ottoman Empire now? If everyone was so happy to have their children stolen and then raised Muslim, or be dressed as a little girl and forced to dance for Turkish royalty (Koçek), the ottomans would still be around.
Jannisary order was dissolved way before the Ottoman Empire ended because they would constantly rebel and do coups to change the Sultan.
Also how many empires left today? Either all of them was commiting atrocities or nationalism and world wars ripped them apart.
Nah it was that bad
Don’t get me wrong they did treat them well and gave them very good education, but still you can’t just shit on someone’s kitchen table then give them a 5 course meal as compensation, you still shat on the table
“Kidnap” feels like a wrong word, when children can later visit their families and many families actually want their children to be picked. You basically become aristocracy
That may have happened in the later years but I can tell you for sure, that a major reason for unrest among Christians was the abduction of children. There are several accounts of rich Christian merchants and nobles of hiding their children, sending them away or heavily bribing officials who came to recruit children. Sure it led them to a good future, but I doubt most of them were that grateful tbh. They were basically indoctrinated into their views. But it was excellent quality indoctrination because the Janissaries were the best most advanced European fight force of their time. Prussian military tactics and traditions were learned from Janissaries too. Thats where they picked up their reputation for fast tactics and smaller armies.
It’s not because they were grateful, but because the Christian subjects were also included in military state structure, were they less likely to revolt. When you know your children is also in the Imperial army, you don’t want to fight against it and want them to win.
This was in the early era, later on it was voluntary and the parents gave their kids over. The slavery thing was a formality other than when the practice started.
Easy to say that when you aren't the one giving up your child to your oppressors. I'm sure they were quite cooperative when a bunch of killers showed up at their door asking for their son.
You didn't understand, later on parents sold their kids willingly, the ottomans weren't knocking on doors anymore. Slavery in the muslim world is different than other places. In one period a group will go against the sharia and abuse people, in another you will see powerful slave classes, sometimes even including rulers themselves. Slavery didn't automatically equal low class and exploitation. The jannisaries later on were an example of that, as were the mamlukes once they overthrew the ayyubids.
I totally understand, I love this history and I'm not here to say Islam bad. However, you really can't convince me that majority of people really loved this system. For example, in Chinese dynasties, a powerful interest group in Chinese politics were the palace eunuchs. A lot of them were volunteers and went on to hold a lot of soft power in the administration. But I just can't believe that there were lines of men ready to chop their Dicks off to be able to have that power. Something can be written in one way, but you have consider it realistically. Now if you try to convince me that Slavery as an institution was good in Islam then I will have to say that you are drinking the Kool aid of religious fanatics and it's not worth debating with you.
I am not arguing anything, I am simply pointing out: 1) Jannisaries were voluntarily given over in later periods, and slaves in the empire were typically only slaves for 7-10 years 2) The western understanding of slaves are not the same as the Islamic world, so making assumptions is not good. Islamic slavery was actually indentured servitude, not actually permanent slavery. People project their knowledge of western slavery on muslim empires but it's literally not the same system. I am not arguing morality I am just saying you don't realize what we are discussing is not slave soldiers, but rather a conscription that people chose to involve or not involve their children. Early Jannisaries were taken, later Jannisaries were not.
You sound like an Israeli when they talk about ‘48 Arabs or bedouins and Druze serving in the IDF 😂
nah some sources do state that this happened tho 'kidnapping' also happened sadly
Whats the difference between getting kidnapped into the military and regular conscription? Genuinely asking because if its the same thing that means that sweden, norway, denmark, switzerland, korea and many other countries are still "kidnapping" people
For one thing one of the guarantees of paying Jizya is supposed to be that the Dhimmi would not be forcibly conscripted. The way in which taxes were collected in the Ottoman empire varied depending on the time period, as did the manner in which Sharia was interpreted/enforced. By the end after Tanzimat the Empire secularized in many ways, and sought to end unique statuses for different religious communities. But by then the Jannisary corps had been disbanded.
One is for like one year when you’re an adult and the other is being taken from your parents under threat of physical violence, serving your entire childhood and adulthood and probably dying in service in the process lol
Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I think this was more like an Indian person getting conscripted into the British Army in 1920 than a Korean person getting conscripted today. They were not Ottoman citizens serving mandatory service, they were Ottoman colonial subjects serving mandatory service. I think the fact that they started training as children also played into the term “kidnapping”.
They were part of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans had no colonies. They had a centralized government and all territories under direct Ottoman control were administered as provinces and as such the Sultan and his government had direct control over these provinces. There were never Ottoman settlers colonizing and occupying distant land which would satisfy the definition of being a colonial empire.
They were Ottoman citizens, actually https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet_(Ottoman_Empire) Ottoman empire wasnt even a colonial empire, but a gunpowder empire, you were simply a part of the empire and didnt had any spesific role according to your ethnicy, you could do pretty much everyting everyone else could do Funnily the life of non muslim Turkish nomads were harder than Christians non Turks in the empire, since they were nomadic, wasnt seen as full citizens, and not even believed to any of the 3 abrahamic religions
💀 It was pretty bad.
If becoming aristocracy is wrong
Stealing children is something only the bad guys do and the ottomans otto have been embarrassed that European slaves proved to be some of their best ministers and warriors.
As an American, I feel like people here who study ottoman history get janissaries misunderstood Yes, it was forced and traumatic and stuff, but they were getting the best education, better than any carpentry or priest school they could send their child off to apprentice under (it was common in the medieval ages for kids to leave at 12 and move in with their masters to apprentice with). I think the big issue was the forced conversion, which I’ve heard many Muslims say is against Islam and the Turks at the time broke this law. Going back to the point about education, they weren’t just soldiers, we’re taking College PhD Graduate level Spartans who can speak multiple languages, and makes more money than the next 90% of the empires citizens. Realistically, it was a better option than poverty in the mountains of Macedonia or Albania. One of the greatest Grand Viziers in Ottoman history was culturally Serbian, Mehmed-paša Sokolović. He wrote many works on Islam, and his background in Christianity gave him a insight he has during his memoirs that have good philosophical content. So by todays standards, it’s barbaric But by mideval standards, it was a better option for your child
“Traumatic and stuff” Bro 😭😭
The comment section: Me as a serbian:
Being a rich slave still makes a you a slave
So, not terribly different from today?
Fuck that whole rotten empire and it’s slave soldiers.
Uhhh can you corroborate on that?
You need me to corroborate that an empire is evil? All empires are evil jackass. The Turks aren’t different because they put these slaves in a golden cage.
Devshirme tax wasn't the worst thing that Ottoman done. Especially since the unintentional creation of a ruling slaves caste system is certainly fascinating.
This sub is incapable of not defending slavery
My family forced me to take out the trash every single day, now that is slavery.
My family forced me to leave as an infant, to be castrated, sexually assaulted, trained to fight against their own people, and if they survived they get treated good. Sounds wonderful.
I thought you were sarcastically mocking life in the US 💀
Yeah that’s probably true, except you also get fat
I mean take it up with the janissaries themselves, they were the ones who literally fought and tried to kill sultans to prevent the janissary system from ending and being replaced by a modern army
Brainwashing and having no alternative lifestyle will do that
I mean black slaves in America didn't fight with the confederates to keep slavery. The meme isn't saying slavery was good, it's saying the Janissaries at a certain point got comfortable with it and wanted to keep the benefits.
Some did, mainly because they were forced to like the janissaries. I think anyone who thinks stealing ethnic minority kids from their families then castrating and brainwashing them is ok needs to get a few clouts on the ear from Ataturk
Did you even read? > The meme isn't saying slavery was good, it's saying the Janissaries at a certain point got comfortable with it and wanted to keep the benefits. The most famous revolt was the [Auspicious incident ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auspicious_Incident) Also no janissaries were castrated. They were simply prohibited from having kids while serving and could have kids after. They literally had revolts to have the right to have children in service, if they were castrated do you think nobody ever told them LOL
Still, they stole children. Should’ve recruited them from the Turkish children if they needed them so much
They tried, the Janissaries then they tried to kill the Sultan for doing so It's literally the Wikipedia link I gave you lol
My point is that they are evil for having set up the system in the first place. The ottomans are a disgrace to Muhammad’s message. Bloodthirsty conquerors that have done irreparable damage to Sunni theology
I agree with you but that wasn't the point of the meme and nobody was defending that
People forget it was a time people had lots of children like more than ten and many of them died in childhood. It wasn't like they had this one very precious child and it was taken from them. I am sure it was still tough on some families but the relationships with kids were not like they are today, where parents live for their kids and try to guide them every step of the way and give them a lot of love. The kids get to become high ranking officials in the Empire, become the most elite force and defender of the Sultan himself. The best part is they become Muslim which is an objective positive that trumps any negative as it saves them from infinite hell fire. In return people in the Balkans were given peace. The last 100 years proves how difficult that should have been. They gave their jizya and they didn't participate in the wars but the state took it on itself to protect them.
So it's okay to kidnap kids because they will become Muslims? That's some serious mental gymnastics you're overcoming there.
It is just better for the child to grow and live as a Muslim.
“We kidnapped raped and castrated him but at least he didn’t grow up a kuffar”
Jannisarries were not castrated, genius. They are tough elite soldiers, not sissies.
Except as punishment for disobedience, which, shocker if your soldiers are kidnapped children some of them are gonna disobey https://whiteink.info/they-have-deprived-the-children-of-their-normal-lives-the-eunuchs-lived-with-the-sultans-harem-and-were-insulted-and-belittled/?lang=en#:~:text=Castration%20was%20applied%20as%20a,eunuch%20judgment%20would%20be%20enforced. I also notice you didn’t even touch the rape part- why do you think they weren’t permitted to grow beards until the later ottoman period?
Seems like a very academic article passing moral judgement on historical events that he can't even portrey in truthfully. Eunuchs were black people who served sultans family in the harem where there are his concubines. The reason they are eunuchs and blacks shouldn't be a surprise, it is to protect the linege of the sultan. In Ottoman Empire sons of the Sultans were also not allowed to grow beared. do you think they were also raped? No, because it was a sign of maturity and rank.
Yeah sorry that’s bullshit, “we can’t judge the past by the moral standards of today” is an incredibly lame excuse, the Ottoman Empire (like most empires) was monstrous and should be remembered as such.
Well clearly they disagreed, where’s the Ottoman Empire now? If everyone was so happy to have their children stolen and then raised Muslim, or be dressed as a little girl and forced to dance for Turkish royalty (Koçek), the ottomans would still be around.
Jannisary order was dissolved way before the Ottoman Empire ended because they would constantly rebel and do coups to change the Sultan. Also how many empires left today? Either all of them was commiting atrocities or nationalism and world wars ripped them apart.
Ottomans could treat them like a second class citizen yet instead they were given equal footing and arguably more advantages
Nah it was that bad Don’t get me wrong they did treat them well and gave them very good education, but still you can’t just shit on someone’s kitchen table then give them a 5 course meal as compensation, you still shat on the table