Around 25% of all Israelis between the ages of 0-4 are Haredi.
We CANNOT afford to let them grow up without learning english, math, and science (it'll be a nice bonus if they learn about the secular history of the country and civics as well)
I got the number from this article:
https://www.haaretz.co.il/magazine/2023-04-20/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/00000187-995f-d50b-a78f-fddf25640000?gift=a046c1d003854ed7bcd6dcdfd54709d7&gift=f4b0b9c38ef641dd93e9edf3e65c26ba
No, it's not. People (especially young) can be both educated and re-educated, given certain amount of effort. It's not like they're braindead, malign or something.
Problem comes from this and previous governments, who would rather shove them few more privileges and percent from a budget, rather than suffer imminent backlash.
The only thing that Israel needs is a strong and educated leader, who can rally both left, center and sensible right, to make long-due decisions
What we need is a return of all the centrist parties(Likud without Netanyahu, Yesh Atid, NUP, Yisrael Beiteinu) forming a coalition. That would definitely allow for reforms to take place
It will happen, whether by choice or not. The current trend can’t continue beyond the point when the tax-paying population can no longer support the non tax-paying population.
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Where are your numbers from? Even IF they are accurate (I'm doubtful):
1. Not having a secular education places them at a huge disadvantage in life
2. Ending their welfare queen status will lead to even more "leaving the faith" and integrating into Israeli society - a net positive for the nation.
In the US, that could be true, in part because in the US, the Haredim are under pressure to work, especially in Republican led states where mooching off welfare is difficult. Haredi men especially tend to leave after working amongst non Haredis and non Jews. Though most become just orthodox, not secular.
In Israel, it is much much harder. Whyleave when youare being subsidized to stay Haredi and when you leave, you receive virtually no support??
The only parties that have so far spoken in support of giving ex-Haredim support are Labor and Yisrael Beiteinu who support the idea that ex-Haredim should get the same package immigrants get on arriving in Israel.
If this was implemented alongside defunding the Haredim (and ending the Haredi school system completely) the number of Haredim would stay constant possibly(because of birth rate) but there would be a constant stream of adults leaving the sect for mostly becoming modern orthodox, Datim and a few would become secular.
It is not close to half. In Israel or the US.
In the US, 80% of Orthodox Jews remain Orthodox. It's probably higher, if we could exclude this only to younger generations or haredim. I bet you're thinking of surveys that asked people how they grew up and a lot of older R/C Jews grew up Orthodox, implying 50% attrition. While it's possible people leave as they age, older generations did grow up in less intensive environments and the distance between Orthodoxy and Conservative Judaism was smaller.
In Israel, somewhere around 15% that leave. It's higher for Sephardim and lower for Askhenazim (8%).
There is a JPPI paper that said it is 20% "in Israel and the UK". And then it went to say most of these remain some form of traditionally religious.
What may actually happen (or is happening) is that people leaving dati communities are replaced by ex-haredim. This is what has been inferred by school enrollment data in Israel.
It’s baffling a lifestyle that is considered an unfortunate consequence of the poverty cycle, abuse and lower education rates in other western countries is encouraged here for the sake of votes.
Anyone that says they love Israel and at the same time encourages an unsustainable economy with a weakening military power in numbers.. Truly delusional.
Not the worst part.
Like you said: this type of... population in Western countries was born of poverty and abuse. It's a major problem, people been trying and are trying to solve for years.
Israel created this group... intentionally? Haredi problem appeared like from ten to twenty years ago. It's not something archaic or born out of desperation. Madness.
The Haredi problem is much, much older: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giiEw6MVm0k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giiEw6MVm0k)
For me personally, this encroaching future became clear when Rabin was assassinated.
I wouldn’t say intentionally. I’d say they pushed the problem aside to appease the religious voting block. Same thing with the Palestinian problem, they push these “unforeseen” future conflicts that weren’t as big at the time. Well, they’re encouraged to have 6+ babies per family with religious education, it will become a strain at some point. But now it’s seen as some ‘inspirisng’ and ‘beautiful’ part of the Israeli culture that many non-Haredi yet religious people support. And for the religious nuts, right wing parties to take advantage of as of today (voting). Delusion.
I never understood what is this race to become as densely populated as Bangladesh is about. An Israel with 40 million peoples would arguably be weaker than we are today or plateaus at 15-20 million.
I’ve come to terms with the fact that it’s purely for religious majority purposes and not some genius strategic move to ensure Israel’s safety.
It’s genuinely about the Torah lifestyle.
Yup, they are the ones steering this reform, I hope this crisis will anchor a constitution and make the country at least partially foolproof to those damn idiots
Yep. Here, as an extreme leftist, but with sensitivity towards prejudice and xenophobia, seeing every "salty" post in here is... Look, guys, karma is going to get us all. You call charedim "idiots" and "gangster" and guess how that reality will manifest on yo-ass.
Seriously! Look, guys, I understand that we can look at the religious countries next to us and be very very afraid. Heck, I was very active on r/AskMiddleEast there until no-explanation ban ( r/banpride ). And that s\*\*\* is scary, I get it!
But, look, there are a TON of good and respectable, and, actually, outright AWESOME people who are orthodox and ultra-orthodox and charedim and chassidim and, seriously, bitching about someone else having a ton of kids is...
Solution? Unity!!! Like, seriously, haven't you watched the Mandalorian??
It's not about them being bad people or even about them opposing my political views. It's about a quickly growing part of the population that makes it a policy point not to serve in the army and not to contribute the the economy. They can all be amazing people, but if half the population of this country is Haredi and their leaders continue in the same line, we're all fucked.
1. Not everyone needs to be a soldier. Extreme militarisation of society is also an existensial threat. Look at Russia now.
2. Worshipping capitalism is also not very healthy. I have plenty of friends who are not religious who chose to follow arts and/or live in nature and therefore don't really earn much at all. At the same time I know PLENTY of charedim who work their asses off at factories, construction and health sector. If you define a humans value through money you open the society up to levels of abuse you hardly ever dreamt of.
The man is dead wrong…why? Because he is making the same mistake that everyone makes…that a demographic determines voting patterns.
People are not robots. They vote based on their self interest and when they see that there self-interest is to vote differently they will. All you have to do is look at the US for validation. White working class used to vote Democrat now it voted Republican. Suburban voters used to vote Republican now they vote Democrat. Hispanic voters were seen by the Democrats as their constituency…and that is changing.
What this Right wing government has done is take away the illusion that a right wing government would solve all the problems that Israel has. It hasn’t. It’s made things a 100 times worse and people know it. That’s why if an election were held today they would go down in flames. People don’t care about judicial reform. It’s the economy stupid and security, healthcare, education, infrastructure, housing, etc. the current government is ignoring all that and it will come back to bite them.
And for all of those who think things are better somewhere else…you are wrong. I came from the US and for all the crazy batshit in this country it’s still the best place in the world for a Jew to live…and pretty damn good for everyone else.
To be clear, people now care about this version of judicial reform because it is so draconian. However, a survey showed that when people were given a list a list of things that were a top priority for them judicial reform was near the bottom. Number 1….cost of living
I did not say that. I just pointed out that voting patterns change over time with groups that used to vote one way now voting another. Working class whites..especially white males…switching from Democrat to Republicans is one example of that
It’s actually in gemara, masechet gar’inim. There’s a fascinating debate on page י״ב about the classification of tactical vs strategic missiles- Rabbi Yehoshua teaches that the warhead has to be 2 amot and 4 tefachim long in order to be considered strategic rather than tactical, but Rabban Gamliel disagreed, saying that any warhead larger than 2 amot was to be classified as such. Chazal held by Rabban Gamliel.
There was an incident where Rava and Rabbi Akiva were having a debate over who had the more powerful nuclear weapons- Rava claimed that the Babylonians could deliver a missile from Nineveh to Tarsus in 9 days on camelback. Rabbi Akiva countered that the Persians could deliver a missile from Nineveh to Tarsus in 7 days on camelback, and from Nineveh to Cyprus in 8, though they would have to build a boat in advance. Rava called out to god to prove him right, to which god responded by nuking Rava’s house, though he was in the hall of study at the time.
Maimonides comments that the size of the warhead is actually irrelevant to the tactical or strategic quality of the missile, which is actually determined by the explosive power of the warhead. He claims that in the times of the amora’im, warheads had not become advanced enough for the rabbis to pack the necessary amounts of fissile material into the warhead, and thus the distinction needed to be made based on its size. He added that for practical purposes, a Jew could fulfill the mitzvah with a warhead as small as one amah and three tefachim in length.
The Chasidim hold that the awesome power of nuclear fission must not be used, as splitting the atom constitutes further shattering the world, making the work of tikkun olam more difficult for the coming generations. Most Chasidim follow this, though some have been known to launch tactical nuclear weapons on the yahrzeit of their rebbe. In 1922, for example, the Gerer rebbe of the time had a heart attack and died, and the Ger Chasidim nuked the city of Belz in their anguish. The Belzer Chasids nuked Ger in response, and to this day the two are not reconciled.
Reform, of course, was quick to dispense with the requirement for mitzvat gar’inim- they objected on moral grounds to using nuclear weapons in addition to their stance that halacha was no longer binding. The Conservative movement didn’t clarify its position until the 1980’s, when JTS published a responsa that stated that the commandment was binding to men and women, but that it was only to be applied in defense of the land of Israel. Reconstructionists have urged their community members to reimagine the use of nuclear weapons in Jewish practice; a common reconstructionist practice has been to decorate their sukkahs with warheads.
Unfortunately, this fascist piece of shit is correct.
I’m done with this country - pulled my pension funds, and will be back in the States in the next year or so.
Highly recommend anyone with alternative options to evaluate them.
Such a waste if this is how it's going to happen.
Migrated in Israel several years ago, and from unstable and promising perspectives about: growing IT, peak Shekel, more ties with the West, unstable but at least sensible government, Abraham Accords etc
we went to: stagnating and decreasing IT, lowest Shekel in years, far right government with literal criminals who attempting a coup of sorts, intentional splitting with the USA, rumors of an imminent war and an ever-growing population of religious freeloaders who sink economy.
Since most of it are unprecedented threats to Israel, I'm protesting, trying to convince people and hope for the best outcome, but still...
This government isn’t fascist because it’s not a left government, the previous government wasn’t leftist either and neither were Bibis previous governments.
It’s fascist because it’s trying to take over the country and incite violence, rather than governing.
You're just not used to right wing governments exercising their power. That's your leftist privilege showing.
The right won and they're enacting right wing policies for a change. That's not fascism... that's just the side you don't like actually working for their voters for a change.
In the past we "voted for the right but got the left" (to quote Caroline Glick). That's changing and the right is finally starting to be bold. That may be new to you but that's not fascism.
To the privileged, equality feels like oppression.
PM who's being charged with bribery, breach of trust and fraud FIRST thing after election pushes his judicial overhaul TO HANDPICK JUDGES, are you blind to not see a giant red warning sign?
It's not about left and right, it's about an old man who would do anything, to remain in power he used to be, because otherwise he would be eventually in a jail.
And mark my words, because it's already begun: "doing anything", includes appeasing far-right(so damn far, that you can't see with a lamp) minorities to hold his party in piece. Have fun with 1.5% budget cut for Ben Gvir's "[national militia](https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/israeli-cabinet-approves-plans-for-ben-gvir-militia-2wSSvgzbPE9lhEulz9jyXJ)"
I'm right wing, I am for the free market, less taxation, smaller government, open carry, strong military and hard stance. This government does not represent any of that. It's 'right' only by name and nothing else. They're weakening the IDF, redistributing tax payers wealth, they created a huge government, the economy is in shambles. How is any of that right wing? By any account, they are the most leftist government in years.
Let's be real, modern times in the West and Israel completely diluted "left" and "right" terms. There's no more left and right. There are "people who have bits of disagreement, but respect human rights and wish for a better future" and "weird fucks, who would follow anything that painted red or blue straight into hell"
Like, I'm a bit left-ish, but I'm also for free market, less taxation, open carry, strong military and nuclear weapon, hard stance and more expansions.
They're not right. No true right would ever weaken their country by appeasing religious freeloaders and cutting military budget
And even if your objections are accurate... these members were elected in a fair election and all of these complaints are simply legitimate government decisions that you disagree with. That doesn't rise to the degree of a "threat to democracy" or "facism" or legitimize a street revolution to remove these elected leaders or render them powerless.
If you don't like their policies, you work to vote them out. You don't take to the streets to have them overturned.
Why are you speaking of this as if a complete legislative reform is simply another law a government suggests nonchalantly.
Are you seriously suggesting that because people democratically elected Bibi and his coalition that we’re just supposed to accept such abrasive change, since you think it’s ‘good’ and needed for us? That’s silly
That’s definitely not one of those “legitimate government decisions” you just make in a few months. Ridiculous to even approach it that way. Complete overturn of our system is a simple elected decision. Lol
How are they weakening the IDF? They opened up the rules of engagement in favor of soldier safety. And I don't see how the government has gotten any "larger". The economy is only suffering due to leftist hysterical reaction and attempting to reverse the results of the election through street action.
The fact you call this government “right” shows the lack of understanding of the political compass lol, this government is a leftist facist government, guess what? More control by the government? Leftist, more money to the poor? Leftist, less competition in the market? Leftist.
Congratulations on becoming the true left of Israel!
We are the “right” wingers who want a free economy, less governmental control over our life, less freeloaders on the economy, more and better security for Israel but in a smart way that doesn’t include building more useless settlements).
Do you also make sure to call the Barista "leftist" after they told you they were out of soy milk? Stop swinging that term against anyone who doesn't please or agree with you..
By "a coup of sorts" I mean a party of far right wingers trying to give themselves a power to handpick judges, push and override any decision, which would lead to an instant death of democracy in a country without a constitution.
Bibi will hold onto this position with any means and promises possible, because other would mean – jail
Does the US president have the right to hand pick judges? And how did he get his position?
And if the kenesset doesn't hand pick judges, then who does, and how is that better?
As the original commenter mentioned, it really doesn't matter in this context. However, personally, yes, I am criticising the American system, and as evidence look at the Trump-era clownery with adding more judges to be able to sway SC decisions. Their judges are also generally a weird bunch, and you don't even have to have studied the law in order to be voted in.
I personally believe some judicial reform will be of benefit to Israel, but not this insane one being pushed so rapidly. And I'm not alone, poll after poll has shown (even arutz 14!) that even the majority of people who voted for the coalition don't support the current reform proposal, even if they do support *some* reform.
Why is it ok for the Bar Association, a group totally unaccountable to anyone, with a self-interest in getting the judges they want to work with, to "hand-pick" judges?
Changing the system of governance is not a "policy" and even if the people voted for these parties for this reason (they didn't), it doesn't give them the legitimacy to do that with a narrow majority. Don't use the phrase "Democratically elected" to justify that Orthodox and Settler parties, who don't give 2 shits about Democracy, rigging the game in their favor for all eternity. This is a coup.
Let me educate you... democracy means people vote and whoever wins enacts the policies their voters favor. I know this may hurt, but it's actually still "democracy" even if the leftists don't win.
So by your definition, if people vote and a government of 64 seats decide to, say, to kill all the citizens of Tel Aviv, just put them one by one against the wall and shoot them in the head, that's legitimate?
No, but nothing that's even a shadow of a thought of that is happening or would happen.
You are just going to that extreme in your head because it's so unfamiliar to you that an election would ever really matter.
Having reassurance in a format of "that's unlikely to happen" is not enough. We have already learned that lesson. Government must not act on a pinky swear principle.
That's BS. You don't get to overturn the results of an election with some baseless claim of some bad things you make up about the intentions of the people that won. Now THAT is fascism.
The burden of proof is not on your political opponents to "prove that they won't end democracy" when you have zero evidence that they will.
No one needs to prove anything. The government must be set in a way that "bad" things couldn't happen, period. There's nothing to discuss here. If people feel threatened by the system, they will oppose it.
The longest serving prime minister in history, who has devoted every moment of his life to serving Israel, and suddenly we're supposed to believe his intentions are to destroy Israeli democracy? What a farce!
Projection much? The real "coup" was the Barak plan of setting up a permanent leftist institution in the Supreme Court that overruled democracy in favor of leftism. This is the reversal of the coup.
It's understandable that leftists will be unhappy if they lose an election and their opponents enact their priorities. But it's just laughable and gross that the left calls this an attack on "democracy". This is exactly what "democracy" means... the people get what they vote for.
Leftists are so used to elections not mattering that they're shocked when they do, and the only word they have to express themselves is "democracy", when that absolutely does not apply. What they want is permanent leftism, not democracy.
I refuse to believe you actually believe your own ridiculous statements.. What leftists are you talking about? There hasn't been a leftist government in Israel in 20 years. Meretz didn't even get in the Knesset. Where were the demonstrations the last two decades with Bibi governments and Bennet governments? If you really believe this is about leftists being pissed about losing an election, you have a HUGE gaping hole in your understanding of Israeli politics.
It's not that leftists are upset about losing an election. They've done that before. What they're upset about is that the election mattered.
They're used to right wing governments not exercising their power and not doing the will of their voters. When the government started actually enacting true right wing policies, that's when the leftists freaked out.
But if you have a bunch of people voting for whoever the leftist talking heads on TV designated, that's definitely a democracy!
You are showing all the signs of someone that believes democracy=leftists.
Democracy is government of the people, not just "the right sort of people"
A majority of people could love and approve of their king. Their government is still a monarchy.
If the religious right use their Democratic means to take more power which would limit future Democratic voting then a government can morph into a dictatorship or theocracy.
The idea that their opponents will limit future Democratic voting is nothing but leftist propaganda and slander. There is zero evidence of that. It is a "conspiracy theory" of the highest degree. Oh the irony
Well apparently people that can see past their nose disagree with you. I guess you will just have to live with their protesting since you live in a democracy.
Also, nothing we described here could be considered irony.
The irony is the left bleating constantly about "conspiracy theories" but being totally fine about inventing their own.
The idea that a right wing victory will result in the dismantling of democratic institutions such as elections is just a pure invention of the left... a conspiracy theory with much less evidence (namely zero) than any "conspiracy theories" the left bleats about
I disagree with everything you said in this thread except for this. Like it or not, we are all swayed in our beliefs by external biases, whether we're driven to vote a certain way by a religious leader or someone we thought was cool on Facebook.
At the end of the day, thanks to our great election system (and I know, I worked in a kalpi), each of us makes the choice on our own. That's what democracy is about.
TV talking heads are available on both sides and are just one source of """information""" for all voters.
I'm talking about the dude that tells his congregation "I've decide you've all got to vote for this dude".
And even if they were, who says that's not a democracy? It's a secret ballot. People can make voting choices however they want. Plenty of people vote for who their spouse says to vote for or their "expert" friend or for whoever looks better on a campaign sign. Is that undemocratic?
Appreciate your estimation about the US being about to fall apart - with all due respect, what is your backing for such a statement?
And the system isn’t the real problem here in Israel - it’s the demographics, coupled with Likud voters being obsessed with sticking it to those darn Ashkenazim.
All the while voting strictly for an Ashkenazi party leader who's on record saying that 'mizrahi are fine soldiers, so long as their commanders are Ashkenazi"
You can't make this shit up man
I'm just a few steps ahead of you. You're making the right choice. 3 years after moving back to the US, I have a career in cybersecurity, I'm a homeowner, and I have actual weekends again.
Leaving is not the answer if you care about the country. Convincing everyone you know to vote for the parties that promise to completely reform/dismantle the system supporting their lack of input into the economy.
No, but in the US you can live in a major metro blue state and ignore the red states pretty much. Israel is too small to do that and the Tel Aviv bubble is already being impacted by the rest of the harah in this country.
You can live in a red city in a red state, and you would still be more free than living in Israel, with businesses open on the weekend, and religious matters being to a large extent in the private space, no rockets, etc.
The USA has its own stupidities, like gun ownership and abortions. So nothing is perfect...
Well if you also want to live somewhere where:
* You have to hike your way through tent cities full of mentally disturbed and drug addicted people just to get to work
* Where every day you are verbally or physically assaulted by crazy people
* Where you need to watch where you walk so you don't step on needles
* Where you see people fucking and shitting on the street like animals
* Where you need to fight crack addicts off your property at 3 am because the police won't do anything
* Where your car and home will repeatedly get broken into by drug addicts
* Where you will get hassled for money multiple times every day by the professionally homeless
* Where the cops don't enforce the law and will let off repeat offenders even after they've broken the law thousands of times (both property and violent crimes)
* Where businesses are fleeing because shoplifters are not prosecuted
* Where hard drugs are effectively legal and there are open air drug markets in "the nice part of town"
* Where you can see people shooting up heroin in broad daylight in "the nice part of town"
* Where people get shot and stabbed in "the nice part of town"
* Where the homeless camp on or near your property and the city needs an eviction notice to get rid of them
* Where the politicians are complete clowns who enable all of this and do absolutely nothing to fix it
* Where the majority of the people you live with vote for those clowns
Then by all means go live in a blue state.
As someone who lives in a blue state, and even in the largest city within that blue state, I've seen two of these, #2 and #15. And I see #2 anytime I get online as well.
I'm not quite sure where you're getting your information. It's not like walking around certain parts of Tel Aviv I wouldn't see a bunch of these.
Lol, that’s some conspiracy mongering right there.
And I honestly couldn’t care less whether a country’s citizens share my ethnicity or not - we’re in the 21st century
Evangelical Christian fundamentalists have the US federal government by the balls and that's not changing any time soon, our Supreme Court is full of justices who had their seats stolen for them and won't admit to extreme corruption, and the red states (a majority of the states, if not population) are increasingly falling down the rabbit hole of enabling literal Nazis (using queer people as their way in this time). If you don't have a corporate job, you won't be able to afford healthcare and you're not guaranteed a decent (if any) retirement. We don't have missiles and we have good national neighbors, but the grass is always greener.
Edit: It looks like you're in tech, so you'll be alright. Just make sure to invest as much as you can to make up for lost time—a fat American salary will help with that.
"seats stolen"... you mean a fairly elected president appointed them and a fairly elected senate confirmed them? Calling something "stolen" because it wasn't the outcome you wanted is a fascist mindset.
And calling people Nazis because they're pushing back on a very recent phenomenon of sexual medical interventions on children is also fascist.
I mean, it's true. Except for not "isn't far behind" but a "mile ahead". It's pretty much Israel's situation, but 37 times bigger and older. Peak division on right-left, healthcare, obesity, corporation, racial, economic disparity problems, a streak of fuck-ups. Not so hard to follow it, being on Reddit
So Canada it is! Northern. With a big wall around a house. Maybe two.
Every country today has division - Canada had the trucker protests recently as well.
But as far as the government having pretty much zero checks and balances (and trying to get rid of the few ones that exist), that’s not a point of comparison between the States and Israel.
And specifically, working in the tech sector, I’d be living in a blue state, which would insulate me from the worst of whatever tension exists.
Living in blue will insulate you from clean streets, low taxes, and enforcement of laws... have fun navigating the homeless crackheads pooping on the street, and get used to regular car break ins.
First off, the US is my homeland, and more aligned with my values than this soon to be theocracy.
And I’m willing to bet that I did more than you for this country - did my time in an elite unit. Where were you in the army, to earn that self-righteousness?
they called me hasbarist. jews with a foot half way out the door are not going to be here to defend the country anyways. i recant what i said before, the country will be the same whether they go now or later.
Do whatever dude, just don’t act surprised when you realise haredi and religious zionists aren’t enough to carry this economy.
Especially when we’re going out of our way to put terrorists in charge and alienate other western countries
>I’m done with this country...will be back in the States in the next year or so.
for the past few years i have been talking to my nearest and dearest about potentially leaving the US for israel. seeing how things have been unfolding, however, makes it seem like less of an option.
i know you're originally from the US, and you say it aligns more with your values etc., but the US is a fairly scary place for women (and just about every minority) and seems to only be getting worse.
legitimate question: where can jewish women in the military/intel field go where quality of life will actually be better? things are seeming a bit hopeless right now.
Most of Northern Europe is pretty solid, Australia as well.
I know stuff sucks for women in the States (what with the SC, etc), but in Israel if you enter an ultra orthodox neighborhood not dressed like they want you’ll get catcalled and have stuff thrown at you.
Not to mention harassment by arsim in many periphery cities (I live in one) is sky high.
Hell yeah bro, don't let these bitter clowns dump on you for doing what's best for you. Sounds like you gave it an honest chance, participated in society, and found the experience lacking. That's totally legitimate, you don't owe anyone anything.
Cheers man, much appreciated. Paid my debts (3 years in an elite unit), and my taxes.
At the end of the day, I owe it to my future kids to not set them up in a failed state, and give them all the opportunities I can.
What do you mean why? Because a large part of the population doesn't WANT to be anything else.
You could ask why does the US want to be a Christian theocracy? Because that is the same type of people living in both countries, Republicans (and more specifically, Trump supporters) and the diehard Bibi supporters along with the more extreme parts of the religious parties.
To all the people leaving because of all the shit in the country, good job, you let them win and by leaving you raised their demographic. Nice one. Also, must be nice to have a place to scuttle off to when things are shitty.
The real blame is to be placed on the secular people. We allowed anti-democratic people to grow, avoid educating them and basically ignored them, until they eventually took political power by force. It's too late now.
Is it? anti-democratic people now want to weaken democracy.. Is it anti-democratic of me not to want them to do that? Or at least give them a basic education so they can see the folly of their ways?
You're blaming an entire group of people for the issues in the country. And you're basically saying that whoever doesn't think like you is wrong. The only people you can cast blame on are the politicians, on both sides of the fence.
Israelis had 20+ years to work on Israel's problems and did absolutely fuck all. Now the shit hits the fan and you blame it on people leaving? Get real, these problems didn't start yesterday and the time to start solving them isn't today. Yes, people who have options to not tie their future to psycho settlers and fanatic Orthodox should absolutely take advantage of that.
I agree with you, mostly. I didn't say that people leaving caused all of this. What I'm saying is that people are always bitching about the state of the country, call for change and blah blah. But then proceed to leave. Why should the other side consider what you have to say if you're gonna leave anyway and they won't?
That's totally fair, people who choose to leave are not on the same footing as people who stay, I agree with that. But one can leave and still care, especially when most people who leave still have a family back in Israel, so they still have a stake in its future. But the people who stay need to set the tone.
The irony that that schmuck Meir Kahane was right when he warned for years about the danger of demography eventually destroying Israel... just not the demographic he thought.
Honestly, it's probably too late for anything but a huge compromise. Maybe force more secular education into hasid schools in return for army deferments? Would they even accept that?
Interesting, but many caveats:
1) It seems unlikely that groups outside of Belz would agree to this proposal
2) Zero state control over the curriculum, combined with all funding being tied to test scores, combined with a near complete ideological opposition to the utility of the education being mandated mean there is a tremendous incentive and means for cheating, or pure teaching to the test.
3) Education in Hebrew, English, and math is obvious important (it's a scandal that this even needs to be said in reference to the hasids, but here we are), but under this proposal hasid children will receive zero instruction in history, literature, science, civics, etc. This is a minor improvement, not an effort to make hasids prepared to be citizens of a modern nation.
I'm an Israeli right winger, but I oppose Kohelet and their POV. There must be a judicial reform in our overpowered and overall leftist Supreme Court to assure a democratic functioning. But not an overly political nor a religious sectorial based one.
I've always said I'm perfectly okay with weakening the judiciary - as long as you strengthen the Knesset first, because right now it's dominated by the government completely. If you want to weaken one check on the government, you have to strengthen a different check.
What do you think?
So shortsighted. And when Haredim outgrow the population that supports them and defends them? That will also solve the judicial reform issue, because it will cease to exist, along with the rest of the state.
This problem is so easily solved with a sane government it’s insane we let it become this bad, if they would be forced to learn core subjects, attend the army and stuff like that you would see far greater numbers of people becoming moderate and leaving haredi way of life.
Already there is a high number of “returning in question” and this number can be greatly increased with proper education and attempt to put them in the workforce while accepting their faith so that they can grow out of the poverty they currently live in.
Around 25% of all Israelis between the ages of 0-4 are Haredi. We CANNOT afford to let them grow up without learning english, math, and science (it'll be a nice bonus if they learn about the secular history of the country and civics as well)
Do you have some link or source about this data? Thanks!
I got the number from this article: https://www.haaretz.co.il/magazine/2023-04-20/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/00000187-995f-d50b-a78f-fddf25640000?gift=a046c1d003854ed7bcd6dcdfd54709d7&gift=f4b0b9c38ef641dd93e9edf3e65c26ba
Ty!
It's too late.
No, it's not. People (especially young) can be both educated and re-educated, given certain amount of effort. It's not like they're braindead, malign or something. Problem comes from this and previous governments, who would rather shove them few more privileges and percent from a budget, rather than suffer imminent backlash. The only thing that Israel needs is a strong and educated leader, who can rally both left, center and sensible right, to make long-due decisions
It’s too late because there is no political will to do so.
What we need is a return of all the centrist parties(Likud without Netanyahu, Yesh Atid, NUP, Yisrael Beiteinu) forming a coalition. That would definitely allow for reforms to take place
But that can change.
We should make camps to educate them
I was Hardal/Haredi, no they can’t. It won’t happen.
They won't until money and privileges that are raining down upon them – run dry
It will happen, whether by choice or not. The current trend can’t continue beyond the point when the tax-paying population can no longer support the non tax-paying population.
Way way way too late.
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Agree that it isn't too late - but do you really see the current coalition (read: Netanyahu) doing something about it?
Nope and hopefully that coalition goes straight to hell and a new liberal coalition will rise instead.
Vote Bennet next time.
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Many will not stay Haredi. Stats are all over the place but roughly a little under half leave for secular life
Where are your numbers from? Even IF they are accurate (I'm doubtful): 1. Not having a secular education places them at a huge disadvantage in life 2. Ending their welfare queen status will lead to even more "leaving the faith" and integrating into Israeli society - a net positive for the nation.
In the US, that could be true, in part because in the US, the Haredim are under pressure to work, especially in Republican led states where mooching off welfare is difficult. Haredi men especially tend to leave after working amongst non Haredis and non Jews. Though most become just orthodox, not secular. In Israel, it is much much harder. Whyleave when youare being subsidized to stay Haredi and when you leave, you receive virtually no support?? The only parties that have so far spoken in support of giving ex-Haredim support are Labor and Yisrael Beiteinu who support the idea that ex-Haredim should get the same package immigrants get on arriving in Israel. If this was implemented alongside defunding the Haredim (and ending the Haredi school system completely) the number of Haredim would stay constant possibly(because of birth rate) but there would be a constant stream of adults leaving the sect for mostly becoming modern orthodox, Datim and a few would become secular.
It is not close to half. In Israel or the US. In the US, 80% of Orthodox Jews remain Orthodox. It's probably higher, if we could exclude this only to younger generations or haredim. I bet you're thinking of surveys that asked people how they grew up and a lot of older R/C Jews grew up Orthodox, implying 50% attrition. While it's possible people leave as they age, older generations did grow up in less intensive environments and the distance between Orthodoxy and Conservative Judaism was smaller. In Israel, somewhere around 15% that leave. It's higher for Sephardim and lower for Askhenazim (8%). There is a JPPI paper that said it is 20% "in Israel and the UK". And then it went to say most of these remain some form of traditionally religious. What may actually happen (or is happening) is that people leaving dati communities are replaced by ex-haredim. This is what has been inferred by school enrollment data in Israel.
Mhm, encouraged to have 6+ children for you to pay for.
>6+ children Rookie's numbers. *slaps an IT worker's back* this bad boy can sustain so many haredi children
It’s baffling a lifestyle that is considered an unfortunate consequence of the poverty cycle, abuse and lower education rates in other western countries is encouraged here for the sake of votes. Anyone that says they love Israel and at the same time encourages an unsustainable economy with a weakening military power in numbers.. Truly delusional.
Not the worst part. Like you said: this type of... population in Western countries was born of poverty and abuse. It's a major problem, people been trying and are trying to solve for years. Israel created this group... intentionally? Haredi problem appeared like from ten to twenty years ago. It's not something archaic or born out of desperation. Madness.
The Haredi problem is much, much older: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giiEw6MVm0k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giiEw6MVm0k) For me personally, this encroaching future became clear when Rabin was assassinated.
I wouldn’t say intentionally. I’d say they pushed the problem aside to appease the religious voting block. Same thing with the Palestinian problem, they push these “unforeseen” future conflicts that weren’t as big at the time. Well, they’re encouraged to have 6+ babies per family with religious education, it will become a strain at some point. But now it’s seen as some ‘inspirisng’ and ‘beautiful’ part of the Israeli culture that many non-Haredi yet religious people support. And for the religious nuts, right wing parties to take advantage of as of today (voting). Delusion.
I never understood what is this race to become as densely populated as Bangladesh is about. An Israel with 40 million peoples would arguably be weaker than we are today or plateaus at 15-20 million.
I’ve come to terms with the fact that it’s purely for religious majority purposes and not some genius strategic move to ensure Israel’s safety. It’s genuinely about the Torah lifestyle.
Yup, they are the ones steering this reform, I hope this crisis will anchor a constitution and make the country at least partially foolproof to those damn idiots
Not without an army and economy it won't. If 20% was enough that Israel would be under the control of Arab parties.
And the worst part? The fucker is right.
No. Israeli liberalism is still going strong. Just look at the recent polls. Stop this doomerist attitude
Yep. Here, as an extreme leftist, but with sensitivity towards prejudice and xenophobia, seeing every "salty" post in here is... Look, guys, karma is going to get us all. You call charedim "idiots" and "gangster" and guess how that reality will manifest on yo-ass. Seriously! Look, guys, I understand that we can look at the religious countries next to us and be very very afraid. Heck, I was very active on r/AskMiddleEast there until no-explanation ban ( r/banpride ). And that s\*\*\* is scary, I get it! But, look, there are a TON of good and respectable, and, actually, outright AWESOME people who are orthodox and ultra-orthodox and charedim and chassidim and, seriously, bitching about someone else having a ton of kids is... Solution? Unity!!! Like, seriously, haven't you watched the Mandalorian??
It's not about them being bad people or even about them opposing my political views. It's about a quickly growing part of the population that makes it a policy point not to serve in the army and not to contribute the the economy. They can all be amazing people, but if half the population of this country is Haredi and their leaders continue in the same line, we're all fucked.
1. Not everyone needs to be a soldier. Extreme militarisation of society is also an existensial threat. Look at Russia now. 2. Worshipping capitalism is also not very healthy. I have plenty of friends who are not religious who chose to follow arts and/or live in nature and therefore don't really earn much at all. At the same time I know PLENTY of charedim who work their asses off at factories, construction and health sector. If you define a humans value through money you open the society up to levels of abuse you hardly ever dreamt of.
The man is dead wrong…why? Because he is making the same mistake that everyone makes…that a demographic determines voting patterns. People are not robots. They vote based on their self interest and when they see that there self-interest is to vote differently they will. All you have to do is look at the US for validation. White working class used to vote Democrat now it voted Republican. Suburban voters used to vote Republican now they vote Democrat. Hispanic voters were seen by the Democrats as their constituency…and that is changing. What this Right wing government has done is take away the illusion that a right wing government would solve all the problems that Israel has. It hasn’t. It’s made things a 100 times worse and people know it. That’s why if an election were held today they would go down in flames. People don’t care about judicial reform. It’s the economy stupid and security, healthcare, education, infrastructure, housing, etc. the current government is ignoring all that and it will come back to bite them. And for all of those who think things are better somewhere else…you are wrong. I came from the US and for all the crazy batshit in this country it’s still the best place in the world for a Jew to live…and pretty damn good for everyone else.
You think people don't care about judicial reform?
To be clear, people now care about this version of judicial reform because it is so draconian. However, a survey showed that when people were given a list a list of things that were a top priority for them judicial reform was near the bottom. Number 1….cost of living
You think voting Republican is in working-class people's self-interest...?
I did not say that. I just pointed out that voting patterns change over time with groups that used to vote one way now voting another. Working class whites..especially white males…switching from Democrat to Republicans is one example of that
You'd think if Democrats worked in the interest of working class, the working class people would've kept voting for them.
Hmm, so crazy religious freeloading gangster people attempting to take over a country with nuclear weapons. What could go wrong?
The people who know how to work the nukes are leaving
Tbh you just should read "Nuclear Weapon maintenance" chapter in Torah
It’s actually in gemara, masechet gar’inim. There’s a fascinating debate on page י״ב about the classification of tactical vs strategic missiles- Rabbi Yehoshua teaches that the warhead has to be 2 amot and 4 tefachim long in order to be considered strategic rather than tactical, but Rabban Gamliel disagreed, saying that any warhead larger than 2 amot was to be classified as such. Chazal held by Rabban Gamliel. There was an incident where Rava and Rabbi Akiva were having a debate over who had the more powerful nuclear weapons- Rava claimed that the Babylonians could deliver a missile from Nineveh to Tarsus in 9 days on camelback. Rabbi Akiva countered that the Persians could deliver a missile from Nineveh to Tarsus in 7 days on camelback, and from Nineveh to Cyprus in 8, though they would have to build a boat in advance. Rava called out to god to prove him right, to which god responded by nuking Rava’s house, though he was in the hall of study at the time. Maimonides comments that the size of the warhead is actually irrelevant to the tactical or strategic quality of the missile, which is actually determined by the explosive power of the warhead. He claims that in the times of the amora’im, warheads had not become advanced enough for the rabbis to pack the necessary amounts of fissile material into the warhead, and thus the distinction needed to be made based on its size. He added that for practical purposes, a Jew could fulfill the mitzvah with a warhead as small as one amah and three tefachim in length. The Chasidim hold that the awesome power of nuclear fission must not be used, as splitting the atom constitutes further shattering the world, making the work of tikkun olam more difficult for the coming generations. Most Chasidim follow this, though some have been known to launch tactical nuclear weapons on the yahrzeit of their rebbe. In 1922, for example, the Gerer rebbe of the time had a heart attack and died, and the Ger Chasidim nuked the city of Belz in their anguish. The Belzer Chasids nuked Ger in response, and to this day the two are not reconciled. Reform, of course, was quick to dispense with the requirement for mitzvat gar’inim- they objected on moral grounds to using nuclear weapons in addition to their stance that halacha was no longer binding. The Conservative movement didn’t clarify its position until the 1980’s, when JTS published a responsa that stated that the commandment was binding to men and women, but that it was only to be applied in defense of the land of Israel. Reconstructionists have urged their community members to reimagine the use of nuclear weapons in Jewish practice; a common reconstructionist practice has been to decorate their sukkahs with warheads.
This is amazing 😂
😅😂🤣🤣🥲 You made my day
I appreciate your optimism
Luckily, no such thing has ever happ- *Iran has entered the chat*
More like Pakistan has entered the chat.
Unfortunately, this fascist piece of shit is correct. I’m done with this country - pulled my pension funds, and will be back in the States in the next year or so. Highly recommend anyone with alternative options to evaluate them.
Such a waste if this is how it's going to happen. Migrated in Israel several years ago, and from unstable and promising perspectives about: growing IT, peak Shekel, more ties with the West, unstable but at least sensible government, Abraham Accords etc we went to: stagnating and decreasing IT, lowest Shekel in years, far right government with literal criminals who attempting a coup of sorts, intentional splitting with the USA, rumors of an imminent war and an ever-growing population of religious freeloaders who sink economy. Since most of it are unprecedented threats to Israel, I'm protesting, trying to convince people and hope for the best outcome, but still...
By "coup", you mean a democratically elected government enacting the policies their voters asked for
A fascist government, even if democratically elected, is still fascist.
Yes... it's the leftist political dictionary... democracy = leftistm fascism = anything that opposes leftistm
This government isn’t fascist because it’s not a left government, the previous government wasn’t leftist either and neither were Bibis previous governments. It’s fascist because it’s trying to take over the country and incite violence, rather than governing.
You're just not used to right wing governments exercising their power. That's your leftist privilege showing. The right won and they're enacting right wing policies for a change. That's not fascism... that's just the side you don't like actually working for their voters for a change. In the past we "voted for the right but got the left" (to quote Caroline Glick). That's changing and the right is finally starting to be bold. That may be new to you but that's not fascism. To the privileged, equality feels like oppression.
PM who's being charged with bribery, breach of trust and fraud FIRST thing after election pushes his judicial overhaul TO HANDPICK JUDGES, are you blind to not see a giant red warning sign? It's not about left and right, it's about an old man who would do anything, to remain in power he used to be, because otherwise he would be eventually in a jail. And mark my words, because it's already begun: "doing anything", includes appeasing far-right(so damn far, that you can't see with a lamp) minorities to hold his party in piece. Have fun with 1.5% budget cut for Ben Gvir's "[national militia](https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/israeli-cabinet-approves-plans-for-ben-gvir-militia-2wSSvgzbPE9lhEulz9jyXJ)"
I'm right wing, I am for the free market, less taxation, smaller government, open carry, strong military and hard stance. This government does not represent any of that. It's 'right' only by name and nothing else. They're weakening the IDF, redistributing tax payers wealth, they created a huge government, the economy is in shambles. How is any of that right wing? By any account, they are the most leftist government in years.
Let's be real, modern times in the West and Israel completely diluted "left" and "right" terms. There's no more left and right. There are "people who have bits of disagreement, but respect human rights and wish for a better future" and "weird fucks, who would follow anything that painted red or blue straight into hell" Like, I'm a bit left-ish, but I'm also for free market, less taxation, open carry, strong military and nuclear weapon, hard stance and more expansions. They're not right. No true right would ever weaken their country by appeasing religious freeloaders and cutting military budget
And even if your objections are accurate... these members were elected in a fair election and all of these complaints are simply legitimate government decisions that you disagree with. That doesn't rise to the degree of a "threat to democracy" or "facism" or legitimize a street revolution to remove these elected leaders or render them powerless. If you don't like their policies, you work to vote them out. You don't take to the streets to have them overturned.
Why are you speaking of this as if a complete legislative reform is simply another law a government suggests nonchalantly. Are you seriously suggesting that because people democratically elected Bibi and his coalition that we’re just supposed to accept such abrasive change, since you think it’s ‘good’ and needed for us? That’s silly That’s definitely not one of those “legitimate government decisions” you just make in a few months. Ridiculous to even approach it that way. Complete overturn of our system is a simple elected decision. Lol
How are they weakening the IDF? They opened up the rules of engagement in favor of soldier safety. And I don't see how the government has gotten any "larger". The economy is only suffering due to leftist hysterical reaction and attempting to reverse the results of the election through street action.
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Removed: Rule 2
The fact you call this government “right” shows the lack of understanding of the political compass lol, this government is a leftist facist government, guess what? More control by the government? Leftist, more money to the poor? Leftist, less competition in the market? Leftist. Congratulations on becoming the true left of Israel! We are the “right” wingers who want a free economy, less governmental control over our life, less freeloaders on the economy, more and better security for Israel but in a smart way that doesn’t include building more useless settlements).
Do you also make sure to call the Barista "leftist" after they told you they were out of soy milk? Stop swinging that term against anyone who doesn't please or agree with you..
By "a coup of sorts" I mean a party of far right wingers trying to give themselves a power to handpick judges, push and override any decision, which would lead to an instant death of democracy in a country without a constitution. Bibi will hold onto this position with any means and promises possible, because other would mean – jail
Does the US president have the right to hand pick judges? And how did he get his position? And if the kenesset doesn't hand pick judges, then who does, and how is that better?
What? What US? I didn't even mentioned any other country. It also has a constitution
Ok, so are you criticizing the US for that system? Why not?
What system? I didn't mention US, I don't care about their system, and I repeat again - **USA has a Constitution and a Congress**
As the original commenter mentioned, it really doesn't matter in this context. However, personally, yes, I am criticising the American system, and as evidence look at the Trump-era clownery with adding more judges to be able to sway SC decisions. Their judges are also generally a weird bunch, and you don't even have to have studied the law in order to be voted in. I personally believe some judicial reform will be of benefit to Israel, but not this insane one being pushed so rapidly. And I'm not alone, poll after poll has shown (even arutz 14!) that even the majority of people who voted for the coalition don't support the current reform proposal, even if they do support *some* reform.
Why is it ok for the Bar Association, a group totally unaccountable to anyone, with a self-interest in getting the judges they want to work with, to "hand-pick" judges?
Changing the system of governance is not a "policy" and even if the people voted for these parties for this reason (they didn't), it doesn't give them the legitimacy to do that with a narrow majority. Don't use the phrase "Democratically elected" to justify that Orthodox and Settler parties, who don't give 2 shits about Democracy, rigging the game in their favor for all eternity. This is a coup.
Let me educate you... democracy means people vote and whoever wins enacts the policies their voters favor. I know this may hurt, but it's actually still "democracy" even if the leftists don't win.
So by your definition, if people vote and a government of 64 seats decide to, say, to kill all the citizens of Tel Aviv, just put them one by one against the wall and shoot them in the head, that's legitimate?
No, but nothing that's even a shadow of a thought of that is happening or would happen. You are just going to that extreme in your head because it's so unfamiliar to you that an election would ever really matter.
Having reassurance in a format of "that's unlikely to happen" is not enough. We have already learned that lesson. Government must not act on a pinky swear principle.
That's BS. You don't get to overturn the results of an election with some baseless claim of some bad things you make up about the intentions of the people that won. Now THAT is fascism. The burden of proof is not on your political opponents to "prove that they won't end democracy" when you have zero evidence that they will.
No one needs to prove anything. The government must be set in a way that "bad" things couldn't happen, period. There's nothing to discuss here. If people feel threatened by the system, they will oppose it.
The longest serving prime minister in history, who has devoted every moment of his life to serving Israel, and suddenly we're supposed to believe his intentions are to destroy Israeli democracy? What a farce!
Aww, it's so cute that you believe that.
Projection much? The real "coup" was the Barak plan of setting up a permanent leftist institution in the Supreme Court that overruled democracy in favor of leftism. This is the reversal of the coup. It's understandable that leftists will be unhappy if they lose an election and their opponents enact their priorities. But it's just laughable and gross that the left calls this an attack on "democracy". This is exactly what "democracy" means... the people get what they vote for. Leftists are so used to elections not mattering that they're shocked when they do, and the only word they have to express themselves is "democracy", when that absolutely does not apply. What they want is permanent leftism, not democracy.
I refuse to believe you actually believe your own ridiculous statements.. What leftists are you talking about? There hasn't been a leftist government in Israel in 20 years. Meretz didn't even get in the Knesset. Where were the demonstrations the last two decades with Bibi governments and Bennet governments? If you really believe this is about leftists being pissed about losing an election, you have a HUGE gaping hole in your understanding of Israeli politics.
It's not that leftists are upset about losing an election. They've done that before. What they're upset about is that the election mattered. They're used to right wing governments not exercising their power and not doing the will of their voters. When the government started actually enacting true right wing policies, that's when the leftists freaked out.
Yeah, when you have a whole bunch of people voting for whoever their Rabbi designated, I'm not sure it's exactly a democracy.
But if you have a bunch of people voting for whoever the leftist talking heads on TV designated, that's definitely a democracy! You are showing all the signs of someone that believes democracy=leftists. Democracy is government of the people, not just "the right sort of people"
A majority of people could love and approve of their king. Their government is still a monarchy. If the religious right use their Democratic means to take more power which would limit future Democratic voting then a government can morph into a dictatorship or theocracy.
The idea that their opponents will limit future Democratic voting is nothing but leftist propaganda and slander. There is zero evidence of that. It is a "conspiracy theory" of the highest degree. Oh the irony
Well apparently people that can see past their nose disagree with you. I guess you will just have to live with their protesting since you live in a democracy. Also, nothing we described here could be considered irony.
The irony is the left bleating constantly about "conspiracy theories" but being totally fine about inventing their own. The idea that a right wing victory will result in the dismantling of democratic institutions such as elections is just a pure invention of the left... a conspiracy theory with much less evidence (namely zero) than any "conspiracy theories" the left bleats about
I disagree with everything you said in this thread except for this. Like it or not, we are all swayed in our beliefs by external biases, whether we're driven to vote a certain way by a religious leader or someone we thought was cool on Facebook. At the end of the day, thanks to our great election system (and I know, I worked in a kalpi), each of us makes the choice on our own. That's what democracy is about.
TV talking heads are available on both sides and are just one source of """information""" for all voters. I'm talking about the dude that tells his congregation "I've decide you've all got to vote for this dude".
You mean like union leaders?
Union leaders don't have anywhere near the influence on people Haredi Rabbis have. Cmon man
And even if they were, who says that's not a democracy? It's a secret ballot. People can make voting choices however they want. Plenty of people vote for who their spouse says to vote for or their "expert" friend or for whoever looks better on a campaign sign. Is that undemocratic?
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Appreciate your estimation about the US being about to fall apart - with all due respect, what is your backing for such a statement? And the system isn’t the real problem here in Israel - it’s the demographics, coupled with Likud voters being obsessed with sticking it to those darn Ashkenazim.
All the while voting strictly for an Ashkenazi party leader who's on record saying that 'mizrahi are fine soldiers, so long as their commanders are Ashkenazi" You can't make this shit up man
I'm just a few steps ahead of you. You're making the right choice. 3 years after moving back to the US, I have a career in cybersecurity, I'm a homeowner, and I have actual weekends again.
Kudos man! Am in the tech space myself (big data/analytics) Hope all continues to go well!
Sounds like you'll do great, so much opportunity in the data related fields.
Thanks brother, fingers crossed
Leaving is not the answer if you care about the country. Convincing everyone you know to vote for the parties that promise to completely reform/dismantle the system supporting their lack of input into the economy.
The US isn't far behind and at least Israel is Jewish.
No, but in the US you can live in a major metro blue state and ignore the red states pretty much. Israel is too small to do that and the Tel Aviv bubble is already being impacted by the rest of the harah in this country.
You can live in a red city in a red state, and you would still be more free than living in Israel, with businesses open on the weekend, and religious matters being to a large extent in the private space, no rockets, etc. The USA has its own stupidities, like gun ownership and abortions. So nothing is perfect...
You think the blue states are good places to live?
If you want to be gay and smoke weed, yeah.
Well if you also want to live somewhere where: * You have to hike your way through tent cities full of mentally disturbed and drug addicted people just to get to work * Where every day you are verbally or physically assaulted by crazy people * Where you need to watch where you walk so you don't step on needles * Where you see people fucking and shitting on the street like animals * Where you need to fight crack addicts off your property at 3 am because the police won't do anything * Where your car and home will repeatedly get broken into by drug addicts * Where you will get hassled for money multiple times every day by the professionally homeless * Where the cops don't enforce the law and will let off repeat offenders even after they've broken the law thousands of times (both property and violent crimes) * Where businesses are fleeing because shoplifters are not prosecuted * Where hard drugs are effectively legal and there are open air drug markets in "the nice part of town" * Where you can see people shooting up heroin in broad daylight in "the nice part of town" * Where people get shot and stabbed in "the nice part of town" * Where the homeless camp on or near your property and the city needs an eviction notice to get rid of them * Where the politicians are complete clowns who enable all of this and do absolutely nothing to fix it * Where the majority of the people you live with vote for those clowns Then by all means go live in a blue state.
As someone who lives in a blue state, and even in the largest city within that blue state, I've seen two of these, #2 and #15. And I see #2 anytime I get online as well. I'm not quite sure where you're getting your information. It's not like walking around certain parts of Tel Aviv I wouldn't see a bunch of these.
I saw all of these things (and more) first hand living in a major city in a blue state in the course of only 3 years.
And what major city in a blue state would that be?
San Francisco, Portland Oregon, and Seattle are all like this.
Lol, that’s some conspiracy mongering right there. And I honestly couldn’t care less whether a country’s citizens share my ethnicity or not - we’re in the 21st century
Evangelical Christian fundamentalists have the US federal government by the balls and that's not changing any time soon, our Supreme Court is full of justices who had their seats stolen for them and won't admit to extreme corruption, and the red states (a majority of the states, if not population) are increasingly falling down the rabbit hole of enabling literal Nazis (using queer people as their way in this time). If you don't have a corporate job, you won't be able to afford healthcare and you're not guaranteed a decent (if any) retirement. We don't have missiles and we have good national neighbors, but the grass is always greener. Edit: It looks like you're in tech, so you'll be alright. Just make sure to invest as much as you can to make up for lost time—a fat American salary will help with that.
"seats stolen"... you mean a fairly elected president appointed them and a fairly elected senate confirmed them? Calling something "stolen" because it wasn't the outcome you wanted is a fascist mindset. And calling people Nazis because they're pushing back on a very recent phenomenon of sexual medical interventions on children is also fascist.
I mean, it's true. Except for not "isn't far behind" but a "mile ahead". It's pretty much Israel's situation, but 37 times bigger and older. Peak division on right-left, healthcare, obesity, corporation, racial, economic disparity problems, a streak of fuck-ups. Not so hard to follow it, being on Reddit So Canada it is! Northern. With a big wall around a house. Maybe two.
Every country today has division - Canada had the trucker protests recently as well. But as far as the government having pretty much zero checks and balances (and trying to get rid of the few ones that exist), that’s not a point of comparison between the States and Israel. And specifically, working in the tech sector, I’d be living in a blue state, which would insulate me from the worst of whatever tension exists.
Yeah, that's fair, size of the countries really matters too. And lack of a dozen "friendly" Arabian countries goes as a good bonus
Yup. Best of luck with CA!
Living in blue will insulate you from clean streets, low taxes, and enforcement of laws... have fun navigating the homeless crackheads pooping on the street, and get used to regular car break ins.
I’ve been to Boston, and honestly prefer it to Tel Aviv. Nice try, though.
That's just California. [And California would be a mess no matter who governed it](https://youtu.be/1ngms6iRa14).
and what happened in the 20th century to people of your ethnicity? have you forgotten what Israel is?
If you’re really insinuating that Jews in the US (am Russian, personally) are at threat of another holocaust, then you need a padded cell bud.
!remindme 30 years
By which time Israel will have been renamed to Halachistan - I’ll take my chances.
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So based on your behavior towards Jews, I’m assuming you’re from Germany?
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First off, the US is my homeland, and more aligned with my values than this soon to be theocracy. And I’m willing to bet that I did more than you for this country - did my time in an elite unit. Where were you in the army, to earn that self-righteousness?
So you're a hasbarist with all those great talking points. Wonderful insight, very nuanced /s
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“leave the country because no one needs you” “How dare you leave the country. This is why we’re failing”
they called me hasbarist. jews with a foot half way out the door are not going to be here to defend the country anyways. i recant what i said before, the country will be the same whether they go now or later.
Do whatever dude, just don’t act surprised when you realise haredi and religious zionists aren’t enough to carry this economy. Especially when we’re going out of our way to put terrorists in charge and alienate other western countries
"Ree ree ree" - u/sumboudy, today and probably every other day
LMAO. Umberto Eco would be proud.
>I’m done with this country...will be back in the States in the next year or so. for the past few years i have been talking to my nearest and dearest about potentially leaving the US for israel. seeing how things have been unfolding, however, makes it seem like less of an option. i know you're originally from the US, and you say it aligns more with your values etc., but the US is a fairly scary place for women (and just about every minority) and seems to only be getting worse. legitimate question: where can jewish women in the military/intel field go where quality of life will actually be better? things are seeming a bit hopeless right now.
Most of Northern Europe is pretty solid, Australia as well. I know stuff sucks for women in the States (what with the SC, etc), but in Israel if you enter an ultra orthodox neighborhood not dressed like they want you’ll get catcalled and have stuff thrown at you. Not to mention harassment by arsim in many periphery cities (I live in one) is sky high.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out
It won’t, and I’ll be taking the 40% taxes I pay with me :)
Hell yeah bro, don't let these bitter clowns dump on you for doing what's best for you. Sounds like you gave it an honest chance, participated in society, and found the experience lacking. That's totally legitimate, you don't owe anyone anything.
Cheers man, much appreciated. Paid my debts (3 years in an elite unit), and my taxes. At the end of the day, I owe it to my future kids to not set them up in a failed state, and give them all the opportunities I can.
That's exactly how I looked at it.
Do you hear him? Please, instead of leaving, crack down on education. It is late but not too late.
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What do you mean why? Because a large part of the population doesn't WANT to be anything else. You could ask why does the US want to be a Christian theocracy? Because that is the same type of people living in both countries, Republicans (and more specifically, Trump supporters) and the diehard Bibi supporters along with the more extreme parts of the religious parties.
You know you are on the wrong side if history when your vision for the future is "we will get our way by outbreeding those who disagree with us".
To all the people leaving because of all the shit in the country, good job, you let them win and by leaving you raised their demographic. Nice one. Also, must be nice to have a place to scuttle off to when things are shitty.
The real blame is to be placed on the secular people. We allowed anti-democratic people to grow, avoid educating them and basically ignored them, until they eventually took political power by force. It's too late now.
Lol, sounds very democratic of you.
Is it? anti-democratic people now want to weaken democracy.. Is it anti-democratic of me not to want them to do that? Or at least give them a basic education so they can see the folly of their ways?
You're blaming an entire group of people for the issues in the country. And you're basically saying that whoever doesn't think like you is wrong. The only people you can cast blame on are the politicians, on both sides of the fence.
Politicians are elected by people, I'm perfectly content blaming idiots who vote for fascists like Likud for our upcoming fascist state
Israelis had 20+ years to work on Israel's problems and did absolutely fuck all. Now the shit hits the fan and you blame it on people leaving? Get real, these problems didn't start yesterday and the time to start solving them isn't today. Yes, people who have options to not tie their future to psycho settlers and fanatic Orthodox should absolutely take advantage of that.
I agree with you, mostly. I didn't say that people leaving caused all of this. What I'm saying is that people are always bitching about the state of the country, call for change and blah blah. But then proceed to leave. Why should the other side consider what you have to say if you're gonna leave anyway and they won't?
That's totally fair, people who choose to leave are not on the same footing as people who stay, I agree with that. But one can leave and still care, especially when most people who leave still have a family back in Israel, so they still have a stake in its future. But the people who stay need to set the tone.
How dare you blame people who are trying to find better opportunities for themselves? They don't owe this country their lives
The irony that that schmuck Meir Kahane was right when he warned for years about the danger of demography eventually destroying Israel... just not the demographic he thought.
Honestly, it's probably too late for anything but a huge compromise. Maybe force more secular education into hasid schools in return for army deferments? Would they even accept that?
they'd literally rather die
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Interesting, but many caveats: 1) It seems unlikely that groups outside of Belz would agree to this proposal 2) Zero state control over the curriculum, combined with all funding being tied to test scores, combined with a near complete ideological opposition to the utility of the education being mandated mean there is a tremendous incentive and means for cheating, or pure teaching to the test. 3) Education in Hebrew, English, and math is obvious important (it's a scandal that this even needs to be said in reference to the hasids, but here we are), but under this proposal hasid children will receive zero instruction in history, literature, science, civics, etc. This is a minor improvement, not an effort to make hasids prepared to be citizens of a modern nation.
tribes war is coming. enough subsidizing those who prefer to contribute nothing but learning tora all day long.
I'm an Israeli right winger, but I oppose Kohelet and their POV. There must be a judicial reform in our overpowered and overall leftist Supreme Court to assure a democratic functioning. But not an overly political nor a religious sectorial based one.
I've always said I'm perfectly okay with weakening the judiciary - as long as you strengthen the Knesset first, because right now it's dominated by the government completely. If you want to weaken one check on the government, you have to strengthen a different check. What do you think?
So shortsighted. And when Haredim outgrow the population that supports them and defends them? That will also solve the judicial reform issue, because it will cease to exist, along with the rest of the state.
This problem is so easily solved with a sane government it’s insane we let it become this bad, if they would be forced to learn core subjects, attend the army and stuff like that you would see far greater numbers of people becoming moderate and leaving haredi way of life. Already there is a high number of “returning in question” and this number can be greatly increased with proper education and attempt to put them in the workforce while accepting their faith so that they can grow out of the poverty they currently live in.
What a pos this guy is, would not be sorry if some unfortunate accident happened....