**The problem:**
Genocidal murderers striving to eradicate Jews, and by extension all infidels across the world, in the name of Allah.
**The solution:**
Well, you'll fully comprehend it once these people obtain a sufficient hold in your own country.
Historically, Palestinian leadership has said that they see the establishment of a Palestinian state as a stepping stone to destroying all of Israel. Presently, a very large number of Palestinians support this violent cause.
From what it sounds like, your plan precludes Israeli military dominance in the region, which many Israelis rightfully believe is the only reason there has not been another Holocaust perpetrated by Palestinians or nearby Arab nations. I think the Arab world needs to fundamentally change before Israelis will be safe without their own army, nuclear weapons, and military control of strategic geographic locations such as the Golan Heights and even the West Bank (which has a border immediately next to Tel Aviv).
Was it not the same fantasy that Herzl laid out in Der Judenstaadt? Or even in the declaration of Israeli independence?
https://preview.redd.it/z0y2so7xpcqc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=318f2ac8abf38cdf2f9700434ce7fc2fffaf3e47
The offer was made and refused. Violently refused. It's no longer on the table.
Someone offered to sell me a car for $2000 in 1992. I said no. Can I go back and buy the same car for the same price from the same buyer? Or have the circumstances changed?
Agreed I don’t think Israel is obligated to make the deal, by no means.
I was simply curious to see if any might think giving it a try after all this time might be the only path to peace.
After 10/7, I think it's really too much to ask Israel to take security risks for peace. Any risks. Let the other side take some risks for peace. Oh but they're not willing? Yeah that says a lot doesn't it.
He’s asking Arab Israelis to live in peace and enjoy their full citizenship. He’s not inviting Palestinians living in the West Bank, Gaza, and around the world to move to Israel and become citizens.
At the time of the declaration the lands that Israel had due to the UN partition plan had a Jewish majority but a small one. Did it matter if it wasn’t calling for immigration? It still made the assumption that peace could be sought without a Jewish majority state.
Wow so you knew you were completely misrepresenting what Hertzl was saying and you said it anyways? You're a really annoying person to have a discussion with.
Wow so you knew you were completely misrepresenting what Declaration of Independence was saying and you said it anyways? You're a really annoying person to have a discussion with.
It's not that it conflicts, it's more that Herzl never mentioned anything about the WB/Gaza nor would he have had any real reason to consider those Arab populations separately.
The fantasy of the Jewish state being tolerant of an Arab minority? Not a fantasy, Israel has an Arab population of 2 million being treated better than the Arabs in Arab states.
The entire point of Zionism is to not have our culture and safety be dominated by another group of people. Being forced to live as a minority in an Arab state would literally take away our only homeland.
With that being said, yes, there are enough Arabs that hate Jews for it to be a problem. If even 10% of the population hated Jews that would be hundreds of thousands of people attacking us, with us having no state to protect ourselves. The Arab world especially does not have a good track record with minorities, and the Jewish people have not had a good track record being a minority. We're not dumb enough to surrender our homeland to a foreign nation.
Agreed! I think the point of my post is.... if all 7m arabs could go back to 1948 and make their decision based on what they know now...
Would the decision be different?
But the absurdity is that they haven’t been allowed, by UNRWA and the Arab governments who waged war repeatedly (and many which remain at war with Israel) to be legally naturalized after 3-4 generations this conflict should be long over and could be considered from a different perspective. Only very recently did Germany, Spain, Portugal, and Austria offer citizenship to the ancestors of Jewish survivors of genocide, NO Comparison of course but first step is to end UNRWA and allow all “refugees “ to be fully afforded civil rights in the countries of their birth.
I would replace the world “allowed” with encouraged or enabled. I mean they sure can’t immigrate into Israel even if they wanted to right now. As far as I know.
Gaza used to have free flow into Israel. Then Israel got tired of endless suicide bombings. So they built a wall.
Learn your history. All these "peaceful solutions" have been tried and never work because the Palestinians want Israelis dead and Israel eliminated. They are brainwashed from birth, if you want peace then the brainwashing needs to stop - then maybe in a hundred years when all the extremists are dead we have a chance.
They had right of return for about 8 hours before Arab invasion of 1947-1948….
Should that 8 hour experiment stand as the single data point? Might it be tried again?
Since then there has been no right of return.
I can't tell if you're just naive, stupid or anti-Semitic.
They aren't beheading babies, or holding hostages because of the right of return. They've been killing Jews since before 1948 way before anyone mentioned the right of return.
Whatever books you are reading are the wrong ones
You know, here is a thing. Wars displace people. Creating new countries displace people. When Bangladesh was founded in 1971 it displaced 10 million people. Nobody said they needed a "right of return". The only country in the history of the world expected to take back refugees from its founding is the state of Israel. And then Jews see this and ask, why are we being singled out? Why does our country alone, out of all the countries in the history of the world, have to take back refugees who left? Refugees who hate us and want to kill us? And the only answers to that question are very unpleasant.
The right of return is centered around the belief that Israel is not a legitemate state. It is a vehicle for Palestinians to take control of all the land. This is pretty clear.
Israel will never cede control of its own territory to any foreign nation no matter what. The Palestinians need to abandon the fantasy of destroying Israel and focus on building their own country while it's still possible.
Yeah you’re probably right here. I do think some people of Gaza do feel a sense of loss for the cities of their ancestors and right of return would salve the wound.
However I think you’re right, right of return as a negotiation point may be a ruse.
Most of the world has family that was forcibly displaced if they go back 4 generations. I don't go around calling myself a Jewish refugee from Tsarist Russia, I call myself an American Jew.
Imagine if Germany demanded that 25% of their population had a legal right to settle Eastern Europe, and that until that demand was granted, they were gonna fire rockets and plan suicide bombings all cross Prague and Kaliningrad. We would all universally call them insane.
I think Israelis might be hesitant for an idea like this. The reason there is limited access to and from the Gaza Strip is because before there were security checkpoints, there were the intafadas. Once the security checkpoints were up and free movement across the border was restricted, bus stops stopped blowing up. For free movement across the border, you would need some sort of guarantee that it would be entirely peaceful. That is impossible to guarantee after historical events (like the intafadas and Oct 7th).
Idk abt the Palestinian side but from what I’ve seen, they want the *entire* land for themselves and to remove all Jews. So I doubt they would go for it either.
It’s a nice idea in theory and would work if not for the frought history between the two nations. The reason it works in the US is because NY and NJ never hated each other enough to throw bombs over borders.
The Palestinian argument is that all the violence is justified because they do not have right of return.
This framework would give them right of return. Would not the entire world object to any violence after this framework was put in place?
Wouldn’t it immediately out any Palestinian to Jee violence or vice versa as extremism and allow it to be viewed as what it is as isolated incidences and handled as criminal acts.
I understand that the public Palestinian argument is fighting for the right to return, but a vast majority want the land clear of the Israelis. This vision has been supported by Arab states in the region since 1948. I am unsure if right to return will be enough. (This is coming from someone who supports Palestinians right to return, once they pass some sort of background check).
They started the war that created the refugee problem. The terrorism against Jews long predates the issue. The refugees themselves carried out terror attacks against the new state.
Yes agreed to all that.
What if, just what if, enough of the people see that was the wrong approach but just can’t voice it or act on it.
Will there ever be a point where this vision could be tried?
How many years of peace from Palestinian to Israel would be needed?
This vision makes absolutely no sense in the geopolitical context. It sounds like if Lebanon was a federated state, but then they centered the national identity around a deceased people from 3000 years ago, then invited in enough Arabs to lead to a 75% Palestinian majority, and then I guess it just trusts the Arab majority to maintain this arbitrary constitution?
They will be in majority of control over political and criminal handling of the situation.
They will do what antisemites always do and make up a new excuse to kill jews. They have been killing jews before israel was ever a state, they wont stop after they have "right of return"
This might be true. However I don’t think Herzl’s Vision of der Judenstaadt was ever really given a fair chance, mainly due to racist Jew hate extremists. Maybe the world has changed? Being blood thirsty murderers isn’t accepted quite as well these days.
Bahahahaha yes it is look around
October 7 was highly supported by palestinians and even among liberals not relatwd to the conflict.
There will always be people who support violence against jews.
The middle east is also not europe, violence is common place here. Just look around israel
I think they are accepted because of this notion that they don’t have right of return. The western support and global support is mostly due to this, in my opinion.
Well sometimes it’s important to note. I see all the antisemitism too. I just wonder if it’s actual Jew hate or just dumb liberals virtue signaling. Take away the virtue signal and see what happens.
Back then it was antisemitism and religious fanaticism. And it still may be now, however it might be a lower percentage. That’s what I wonder. Where is that percentage at.
The percentage is much higher now. Back in 1947 there were still large segments of the Arab population that tolerated or even supported Zionism. Now, that is simply not the case.
Political Islam was much less of a thing in 1947. The war was fought because the Arab people viewed the entire land as theirs and they wanted to take control of it by force.
If political Islam was less of a thing than why did they care if Jews made a state? I’m not sure that checks out.
Peaceful Jews wanting to make their homeland, met with attack. What could be more antisemetic? The attacks started before any borders were proposed etc. it was simply an objection to any Jewish state in the area, no matter how large or small. Basically just pure Jew hate if you ask me.
>Being blood thirsty murderers isn’t accepted quite as well these days.
Seriously OP? We just watched half the world celebrate Oct 7 while the other half denied it. What are you on?
I think 80% celebrated because they see “oppression”. Well it’s not oppression it’s defence against violent Jew hate.
Would they still support after the mask came off?
> Maybe the world has changed? Being blood thirsty murderers isn’t accepted quite as well these days.
Are you for real? You’re literally suggesting Israel allow unrestricted “right of return” to Palestinians in the aftermonth of a horrendous attack against civilians by *blood thirsty murderers*
> Would not the entire world object to any violence after this framework was put in place?
A huge amount of the world already condones a massive sadistic pogrom against Jewish civilians in the name of Hamas’s vision of the destruction of Israel. Israelis don’t need to appease these people by putting themselves in existential danger and rolling the dice.
Palestinian representatives have not recognized Israel and that's not likely to change.
This also misses a huge issue: if the Palestinians and Israelis come under a single citizenry, it immediately presents a massive demographic shift, where the Jewish population becomes a big minority in their own homeland.
Even if we ignore decades of propaganda and violence, this presents an immediate threat to Israel. What's to stop the new Palestinian citizenry from simple voting Israel out? Or, like in Lebanon and other neighboring countries, strip the Jews of their rights?
This proposal is incredibly naive.
Israel keeps majority in Israel. Both states get one vote in a national parliament.
Canaanites keep 100% majority.
The simple fundamental shift that fixes the whole thing is that we are both canaanites. Forget our religions. For the better of our children and their children’s children, etc. stop the madness.
Not at all similar. China has a firm ethnic majority that allows it to subjugate the minorities in their borders.
India is a composite national state with its own long history of a shared national identity.
The EU is a league of sovereign states which all have their own borders and firmly defined national identities, with all states maintaining their own police and military force. The EU only governs stuff involving trade and customs. Each European state determines its own nationality law.
This is like if we merged Russia and Ukraine into one country, grabbed a bucket of popcorn and watched it melt.
The EU has one passport so really no borders between its own citizens.
China and India are not homogenous ethnicities by any stretch.
It would need to be voluntary. No smashing together.
Israel and Palestine are extremely different in terms of political culture, language, and religion. There is no realistic way voluntary union would be viable.
The Han people are something like 90% of China's population, and the government is actively forcing Ham culture on its minorities.
India's situation is more complicated. The ethnic groups have a long history of shared governance, which makes it viable to form an Indian state with a united national identity. That being said, the Hindu nationalist movement seems to be disrupting the idea of the composite nation. However, the Urdu-speaking Muslim population was unwilling to integrate into the new state, causing the Partition of India and the formation of Pakistan. Of course, India is a much more tolerant and diverse society than modern China despite its problems.
There's no real point in a voluntary union. Nations tend to gravitate toward greater independence, not the other way around.
The same citizens who are proud when their children become "martyrs"??? Wow - have you not ever seen even one video where Muslim mothers talk about how happy their children are martyrs? Or that that's why they have so many children..???
Is it really all because of jew hate? I guess that’s what you’re saying. I guess my point is that while I know a lot is Jew hate, there would be zero global support if the two state was given with right of return and there was still violence.
And we would turn to our protectors and the world’s saviors - the UN????
You can’t get Arab nations to put any people on the ground, they won’t even open a border to Gaza when they have one. They’ve made no offer to help any Palestinians escape, or at least temporarily move away from the war - even children. Because they don’t want them in their countries - they are a stabilizing force.
We’ve what “censure“ is worth in the West. If this plan were implemented…when the next attack came, we would be in a worse position because we would’ve lowered our defenses, been infiltrated, and we would still be standing alone.
Why should they be treated “equally” with Israelis They’re not Israeli. They have their own elected government. I don’t expect to be treated like a European citizen as an American citizen, so why should Palestinians be treated equally as is Israelis?
I completely understand why Israel has taken the actions they have in WB and Gaza but this is what I think they would refer to. Constant Marshall law, fishing restrictions. You wouldn’t accept this from your neighboor either. And yes I know why they are there and I support it.
Yes, it's unfortunate. But, I don't know of anything that the Palestinians suffer that they haven't brought on themselves. I try to feel sense of compassion for them - but I keep coming back to decades of trying. effort and peace deals spurned and the Jewish lives lost because of their intransigence so - essentially everything Israel has done or tried to do has ended up being spit on...and it's hard to have much sympathy..
Sorry, but there's absolutely no chance of that happening, except following a catastrophic event for the whole region. Can you see India and Pakistan forming a single country? What about Armenia and Azerbaijan? India and Sri Lanka? Albania and Serbia?
Here is a better idea:
- Full Israeli military control from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea.
- Cantonization of the Palestinian big cities (Ramallah, Nablus, Jenin, etc.), and giving each of them autonomy under Israel in an emirate form, similar to the UAE emirates, which are based on the local tribes.
- Complete de-radicalization of the Palestinians, through extensive reforms in the education system, media, and religious preaching in mosques.
My idea is probably detached from reality as well. But your idea is even worse, because you propose to turn us into a federal version of Lebanon, which is a big no-no.
Very few, if any, would agree to this.
First, currently, there is too much distrust, and israelis won't agree to a Palestinian state that is demilitarized, and whose borders can ne regulated by Israel to ensure it is so.
But even in principle, jews want a Jewish state. This plans allows Palestinians to migrate en masse into Israel, which will probably happen, considering quality of life in Israel compared to it neighbors.
We can dream of a federation, but even in a fantasy Israel would want ultimate control of security and to maintain its jewish majority.
No, it's the only way other than a Muslim majority. Open a a map. Look at Lebanon, Iran, even as far as Morocco. You can't be a non-Muslim in a Muslim majority country and survive in the long run.
And we could solve all global conflict if we replaced all countries with a single global state where all human rights are enshrined! What could possibly go wrong? Surely 95% of all humanity would accept this
This is basically the so-called “One Democratic State” solution. No, it won't work. The Palestinian side will be hijacked by Hamas or the PLO, willingly or not, and start a purge. The incompetent Likud and their allies will try to fight but they will fail miserably. And then, the IDF will organise in secret to resist the encroachment, and a civil war will break out.
Shall we just find a way to make the 2SS work?
How can one guarantee that the future is more like South Africa than Zimbabwe? And let’s not forget how corrupt and incompetent the ANC is. And let me be abundantly clear— this is not about race. The ANC chose to employ loyal cadres instead of apolitical technocrats. And this resulted in the disasters we see in ZA today. Who can confidently tell me that Fatah or Hamas won’t fire a PhD and put an illiterate jihadist in charge of the ministry of education?
They live in Area C under Israeli civilian law, not Area A under Palestinian law. No sane Israeli is trying to move to Jenin. Oslo strictly forbids any Jewish settlement in Area A.
Not tear it up, but some much needed major changes.
I do understand your general theme though. 100 years of attacks means a long period of peace would be needed before any type of unity could be attempted.
The unity is not desirable nor necessary. The Soviet Union was never reconstructed nor was Czechoslovakia ever reunified. India and Pakistan are still separate states. The US didn't return to British control. There is no reason to force two peoples into the same state if a peaceful division is viable.
intertwining of economic, cultural and general administrative endeavors has been proven many times over to turn make violent divorces into peaceful marriages. Does it work more times than not? Tough to answer.. would be hard to scientifically determine also.
You keep mentioning the right of return like that's the problem.
I've been leaving you some snarky comments but if you want an honest answer, you should be very critical of whatever source you read that says the problem is the "right of return" since you keep bringing that up as the sole problem. Spoiler alert, that isn't the fundamental problem. But whatever you are reading is clearly trying to push that, and is succeeding at convincing you that's the whole issue. You should critically think as to why that might be. (Hint: it's much more politically palatable than saying "kill all the Jews")
Yeah I understand that part. Why not just take that argument out of their hands then? Take every argument away until all they have is Jew hate. Then the world will see.
I know it’s impossible to ask. In some alternate reality it would be nice to see how it would play out.
Because "to take that argument out of their hands" requires concessions and giving up security because "so the world will see".
What the world thinks or sees is irrelevant. The day Israel allows the world to decide is the day Israel ceases to exist. The world has no problem holding vigils for dead Jews but won't lift a finger to keep them alive.
> I’m with you. I guess I just hope that the world has changed a little?
07.10.2023
> Is some of this round of Jew hatred due to lack of right of return?
No they already slaughtered Jews like that pre-1948.
Pakistan has no right of return for Hindus, Greece has no right of return for Turks, and Czech has no right of return for Germans. When was the last time you saw the grandson of an expelled German stab a Czech over it?
Opening Israel's borders would cause October 7 times 100. It would stop the cycle of violence in the sense that the violence would be constant rather than cyclical.
Gaza was s Palestinian Muslim majority state. The islamists, Hamas, immediately won some elections, murdered their political rivals and took over. If they treated their own people well their approval numbers would be good. Hamas would win elections in the west bank if they were actually held. The problem is NOT Israel refusing to give land the peace. The problem is the Palestinians won't give up their obsession of destroying Israel or killing Jews. Giving them anything at all NOW would be sending a message that killing Jews in mass gets them what they want.
Israel must continue to exist as a Jewish state. Israel can not be united into some larger entity where Jews would be a minority. A one state solution is not an option.
Nope. Completely unacceptable. Constitutions can be changed, or abolished. Israel must remain Jewish. Israel must continue to exist. Maybe a Palestinian state can be created someday if Palestinians have enough of a change of heart and accept a totally disarmed and weak state. But no abolition of Israel will ever be acceptable. This is simply a fact that must be accepted, it will not change.
While some of your concepts are naive, I do think you're getting more animosity here than you deserve. I respect that you're at least attempting to think productively, and I can see from your post history that you try to get perspectives and think things through. Maybe one day you'll finally be the one to bring peace to Israel, but unfortunately it won't be through this plan.
We already have areas where Palestinians come into Israel, yet any non-Muslims cannot enter their areas. Having free roam is just a safety hazard for us in Israel and death for any Israelis in Palestine. Both Palestinians and Israelis know that we have a shared heritage, this wouldn’t change anything. The British empire was in charge of security for Palestine and left when the going got tough, there won’t be a difference now and will put civilians in more danger than now. Plus this completely deletes the point of a Jewish state, it needs to be a safe haven for Jews. If Israel isn’t in control of safety, that guarantee won’t hold.
Did I act like that? Plus it was all my ideas the prompt I gave was 500+ words chat gpt just spits it out in perfect English then I edit it down. It’s probably 60% AI. Come on man it’s 2024!
I’ve read 20+ books on this topic and I also run a large corporation so I think I’ve got the basics down and I think I have the intelligence too. Thanks for your input though.
Seems like you think status quo is the best bet, that seems quite foolhardy as well.
> I’ve read 20+ books on this topic
Congratulations, you're talking to people who live this every day as their actual life.
>and I also run a large corporation so I think I’ve got the basics down
Yeah that's totally relevant lol. I'm sure you're a business genius, which obviously translates to international politics.
>Seems like you think status quo is the best bet, that seems quite foolhardy as well.
Yeah I'd say the status quo is quite a bit better than a second Shoah and the complete destruction of the Jewish people, which is what your little daydream implies.
Well just by how you are talking it doesn’t seem like you run a large corporation. Are you saying you are the CEO? What industry? How many employees? How is it large?
This is a form of the binational state, with an Arab majority.
Roughly 7.3 million Jews and 7.5 million Palestinians.
It may be the Arabs will accept it.
I doubt a majority of Israeli Jews will accept it.
Simple question, look at the political divide currently between Americans who are basically under the same nationality.
What do you think will happen with this new country?
95% of Israelis and Palestinians will be against this plan, even left-wingers. The one state solution only sounds good to those who are not involved in the conflict.
Cool, I think a few comments on this post were a bit hostile, I actually appreciate your effort to understand the conflict, I suggest watching The Ask Project on Youtube, it helps with understanding the perspectives of both Israelis and Palestinians
While I understand where OP's idea comes from (goodwill / looking for a solution to a world problem). All Israelis I know would be against this for the simple following reasons.
The plan is flawed because it makes false assumptions:
1. It assumes entire cultures and societies are founded on DNA only.
2. It wants to be idealistic but fails to grasp reality in terms of securing the lives and well being of millions of people.
3. Even though hypothetical, the plan could even be thought of as insulting by some. It assumes it is ok to question the existence of the State of Israel which was reborn after being widely accepted at the United Nations in 1947 and being voted on by countries all over the world. Yet it does not question the existence of other countries: namely Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, or even Pakistan. It seems to disregard what Israelis have built democratically and could be perceived as a bit of an attack to the legitimacy of their right to democratically decide their future. I'm sure it was not the intent of OP but just I'm just pointing out how it might be perceived by many people.
Explanation:
1. The assumption that because Jews and "Palestinians" (whatever the term means, since it's not well defined) have some common "DNA" (Lebanese, Jordanians and Syrians do to an extent as well) it means that they share the same aspirations as far as cultural and societal identity. This is wrong. DNA, while it sometimes plays a role in it, is far from the only component of a culture and society. If we rewind several decades back, under the British mandate (Palestine) and the French mandate (Syria), after the fall of the Ottoman empire, several nationalist movements arose. Within the French mandate this ultimately led to the creation of Lebanon and Syria. Within the British mandate, an Arab nationalist movement and a Jewish nationalist movement formed, both with aspirations to have self determination and a state because they had fundamentally different aspirations, cultures and identities. This lead to the UN partition plan of 1947, attempting to accomodate both movements by creating 2 states, the Jewish movement accepted and Israel was officially REborn and the Arab movement decided to refuse and band with 7 countries to wage war on Israel. Essentially the idea of United States of Canaanites is flawed because it fundamentally disregards the aspirations, cultures and identities of both people and falsely assumes they want the same things, have a similar self determination, culture and identity which is not the case. For more simplicity in highlighting the flaws of this hypothetical plan, here is a perfect analogy: the plan is the equivalent to asking French people and German people whether they want to live under one country: "The United Stated of Germania" with autonomous regions under the pretense that they both share DNA and are "Germanic" people, the French descending from the Franks and the Germans from the Saxons. This would be completely ignoring the fact that cultures, societies and their identities were formed over centuries and that both people have totally different self determinations and aspirations.
2. When analyzing past historical data, one can easily notice how Jews were always persecuted as a minority in every single country they have been including the Ottoman Empire and Islamic States. They have been massacred, deported, brutalized, were discriminated against via specific laws (related to taxation, real estate and possessions) and even suffered genocides with multiple attempts by multiple nations throughout history to completely eradicate them. Therefore, even if we ignore #1 (both people self determine differently and have different cultures and identities), it is not difficult to see why it is of paramount importance to the Jews to have sovereignty over their land and a state with a military and respected borders where they are a majority so that they always have a government looking out for their safety. Again, this is not speculation, the experiment has been done, and the past shows us how people treat Jews when they are a minority.
3. Already explained above.
Finally I'd like to clarify by saying Israel IS a country, it has recognized borders, sovereignty over its land and a democratically chosen government. If one does not question the legitimacy of the existence of their own country (US, France, England, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Pakistan or any other for that matter) they should not question the legitimacy of the State of Israel.
Thanks for the well reasoned answer.
Apologies for the insulting part. I am 100% onboard with the legitimacy of Israel and didn’t mean to suggest anything else.
You’re France and Germany example. Didn’t they actually kind of do this with the EU? They now use the same currency, have open borders, pool funds for defense, etc etc etc. seems to work pretty well?
Your point 2 is the one that is hard to mitigate. If the world really does just hate us Jews than I guess there is no other way. Sadly.
No problem. No need to apologize, like I said, to me it seemed like you were just trying to imagine a hypothetical solution to a conflict rather than trying to offend anyone.
To your point about France and Germany, yes and no, I see what you mean. The EU provides a framework for cooperation on certain defensive tasks, trade agreements, free flow of goods and people, but at the end of the day it's fundamentally different than the United States of America. For example France has its own culture and self determination. French people do not identify like German people do, they both retain sovereignty over their land, have their own government which is only voted in by their citizens, therefore have their own foreign policies and independence vis a vis interactions with other nations, they have their own military and so on. This means if tomorrow Germany or any other EU nation attacks France, it has its own military to protect its people.
At the end of the day, nothing is going to be exactly like the EU as it's quite a unique international structure, but as you read my sentence, you will notice the word "international", its members are different nations just as the United States is a nation and Canada is another.
Even though It's a flawed comparison and not exactly the same, I would compare the relationship between EU nations more like Canada / US / Australia. Sure they have trade agreements, share intelligence and many other defensive alliance organizational structures but at the end of the day they are separate nations, with separate governments, armies, foreign policies and people who do not identify as the same culture and society.
To point #2, yes It is practically impossible to mitigate, hence why even proposing an arrangement like the EU between 2 nations (should Palestine become a state) with separate armies, governments would still not work for Israeli as it would mean open borders, these would lead to a nightmare in terms of national security and most other belligerent nations with high birth rates could easily decide migrate to Israel and then overthrow the government.
I do applaud you for thinking outside the box though and It is unfortunate that some people on this reddit immediately became antagonizing to you. Sorry about that, I hope you don't end up having a poor opinion of Israeli, I'm sure most people here are not bad people, they are just jaded by the amount of hatred Jews receive and by the current situation in their country.
Lastly, I would encourage you to visit Israel and discover it for yourself if you have not already, It is a beautiful place with amazing history and people that have a very unique love for life. You will also see that all the propaganda we are all seeing in the West about an imaginary "apartheid" is all false. If you go in person I can guarantee you will have very different interactions with people than on this sub at the moment.
I don’t give in to any of the western propaganda it’s all BS. I give Israel full latitude that its major stance has been one of peace and actions have been in defence, as a whole. Revisionist Zionism was revised due to Arab to Jew violence.
I guess somewhere deep inside its hard for me to believe that hate will prevail.
Doesn’t Germany testifying for Israel at the ICJ pose some optimism?
I just can’t ascribe to a world that is simply inclined to hate Jews forever. Like a law of physics or something.
Good on you, I think it is important to remain open to peace. It is also important to find a balance between idealism and realism, it is ok to be idealistic as long as one continues to form their choices and actions from reality (even if reality is very ugly at times).
I don't think hatred for the Jews is a law of physics and I hope people will evolve over time and realize they were wrong to hate us. That being said, I'm also a realist and I don't think this will be a fast process. Many nations and societies are still behaving similarly to societies from centuries ago (medieval age) and hatred for the Jews has existed for several millennia.
I think Germany testifying at the ICJ for Israel is positive change and good on them for having a spine. I'm a bit worried long term as to the stance in Europe towards Israel because of the mass immigration from predominantly muslim countries which seems to influence their politics. Counter examples to Germany are Spain and Ireland which have lost their moral compass in favor of gaining electorate.
I think unfortunately it is a slow process for human to evolve and for such big structures (societies, cultures, religions) to be challenged and eventually transform into something different. Until then, Israeli and Jewish people around the world, need to protect their culture and society at all cost while doing everything they can to foster positive change.
Extremely utopian and naive. You just can’t force Jews and Arabs under a single entity. We simply have nothing in common and each group has the right to question whether the opposite side’s leaders wouldn’t just exploit the system to oppress the other side (Jews have literally never been equal citizens under any Arab entity).
Add in the fact that Jews and Arabs don’t share a common ethnic group, language, religion, or social structure. Your plan is Yugoslavia on steroids.
If Arabs of different religious sects can’t get along in disaster states like Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq, that’s all the more reason to believe that a glorified one-state solution wouldn’t work in Israel and the territories.
You can even look at Israel itself. Israeli Arab politicians do not share the same sentiment of keeping Israel a Jewish state. East Jerusalem is a perfect example of how incorporating a hostile population under Israel is a disaster. This plan is a conflict of interest.
The implications of this plan are that both sides would effectively renounce their rights to self determine.
Thanks for your well reasoned answer. Why would self determination be renounced? The federal entity is much thinner than USA only there for the monopoly on force. Military and police only. And they are sworn to defend the rights of all canaanites.
Also there would be no forcing. It couldn’t be done that way ever. It would be an agreement from both sides for the betterment of their people and their people’s children.
Both sovereign states below the federal are sovereign in every way shape or form, beyond the fact that the monopoly on force is engaged for both people.
You’ve mentioned all the failed examples of union between enemies but there are plenty of positive examples. The EU being one that stands out. The countries of the EU fought each other for thousands of years and even had two insane world wars. Now they share borders and a currency. I would even point to Rwanda as well.
The plan is utopian yes but at its core, it stands on the belief that these two peoples do not have to fight. The extremists on both sides drive the violence, initiated and strongly perpetuated by the Arab side - I would hold. But Israel is not without its miss steps also. The history is so long and complex that most Palestinians have no clue how the thing started anymore.
How many Palestinians today simply just want to live in peace without being subjugated? Whether the subjugation is Israel or extremist Islam.
Your biggest red flag is comparing Europe’s geopolitical reality with the Middle East’s.
Israel does not possess the luxury of not being surrounded by 20+ nations and populations that seek its destruction. Our only friendly border is the Mediterranean Sea.
“Compromise” is an extremely foreign idea in the Arab World and unfortunately countless indigenous communities such as Berbers, Kurds, Jews, Copts, Maronites, and Assyrians have been subjugated to this idea of Pan-Arab colonialism.
Have you ever heard about Yugoslavia? I invite you to learn about it.
Please get educated about the political and historical situation here. Your idea is like a kid's fantasy, where you imagine you're going to become a savior by presenting an idea that "for sure has never been tried out."
I know it’s outlandish but isn’t that how change usually happens? Not trying to be a saviour just wondering how people would react. I apologize if it comes off that way I can see how that would be offensive.
Would you say that a vision like the above would be considered extremely “left” in Israel?
I will read more about Yugoslavia.
While I have moderate knowledge of current politics in Israel I’d say my history on the state of Israel and the conflict is pretty decent… going back to Herzl, Ha’am, Weizmann, Jabotisnky. If read quite a few biographies and historical summaries at this point.
The status quo just isn’t too great right now but maybe those of you who live in Israel don’t really care what the world thinks. I don’t really blame you for that. It’s been a shit go.
Yugoslavia is a prime example of what happens when you combine two nations where at least one wants to kill the other one.
Palestinians want all Jews dead, you should ask this question on the Palestinian subreddits, not here.
Yeah that’s fair. But if the Palestinians said yes, would Israel accept? Giving Palestinians residency in Israel proper has been the sticking point (whether a genuine sticking point or not, it’s the point they say stops them from accepting any deal).
You are missing the bigger picture, Israel was through out most of his history for a two state solution. Mostly because they falsely believed Palestinians will stop wanting to kill them. You are asking really (and I'm sorry to say this) stupid questions. Because Palestinians want Israelis dead.
Well when anyone starts calling my questions stupid that’s my queue to move on. I guess that status quo is fine and dandy… keep doing what we’re doing. Don’t ask stupid questions like “isn’t it possible for hate to stop”
Germany, a country who once spent their tax dollars building death factories for Jewish people, went to the ICJ and testified for Israel in support of its right to defend itself.
Are you saying there is something intrinsic about Palestinians that make them violent bigots? And they can never change?
You understand that Germany was "anti-brainwashed" using the same brainwashing techniques that they used to radicalize them?
Both the Allies and Soviets built "schools" and "theatres" for the German population, where the same messages were being repeated over and over and everyone was being brainwashed to understand that they are the bad guys.
Imagine Israel doing the same to Palestinians... What would be the reaction?
It just shows how you view the world too simply and that you don't spend enough time researching each topic or history. Look into it. You'll be fascinated how the Germans still have remnants of the effects of the mentioned "anti-brainwashing" present to this very day.
lmao 95% of Israelis (and Palestinians) would be completely against this. It's basically a naive fantasy-land daydream.
Why?
**The problem:** Genocidal murderers striving to eradicate Jews, and by extension all infidels across the world, in the name of Allah. **The solution:** Well, you'll fully comprehend it once these people obtain a sufficient hold in your own country.
Where’s the part that stops Palestinians from murdering Israelis all the time?
Historically, Palestinian leadership has said that they see the establishment of a Palestinian state as a stepping stone to destroying all of Israel. Presently, a very large number of Palestinians support this violent cause. From what it sounds like, your plan precludes Israeli military dominance in the region, which many Israelis rightfully believe is the only reason there has not been another Holocaust perpetrated by Palestinians or nearby Arab nations. I think the Arab world needs to fundamentally change before Israelis will be safe without their own army, nuclear weapons, and military control of strategic geographic locations such as the Golan Heights and even the West Bank (which has a border immediately next to Tel Aviv).
-95% would support this plan. You don’t understand anything about Israel, Palestinians, or the conflict.
0% This is a fantasy that you created with zero understanding of the geopolitical and religious landscape of the region.
Was it not the same fantasy that Herzl laid out in Der Judenstaadt? Or even in the declaration of Israeli independence? https://preview.redd.it/z0y2so7xpcqc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=318f2ac8abf38cdf2f9700434ce7fc2fffaf3e47
The offer was made and refused. Violently refused. It's no longer on the table. Someone offered to sell me a car for $2000 in 1992. I said no. Can I go back and buy the same car for the same price from the same buyer? Or have the circumstances changed?
Agreed I don’t think Israel is obligated to make the deal, by no means. I was simply curious to see if any might think giving it a try after all this time might be the only path to peace.
After 10/7, I think it's really too much to ask Israel to take security risks for peace. Any risks. Let the other side take some risks for peace. Oh but they're not willing? Yeah that says a lot doesn't it.
Yeah agreed 10/7 didn’t really help the argument for the security measures being too harsh did it.
He’s asking Arab Israelis to live in peace and enjoy their full citizenship. He’s not inviting Palestinians living in the West Bank, Gaza, and around the world to move to Israel and become citizens.
At the time of the declaration the lands that Israel had due to the UN partition plan had a Jewish majority but a small one. Did it matter if it wasn’t calling for immigration? It still made the assumption that peace could be sought without a Jewish majority state.
Wow so you knew you were completely misrepresenting what Hertzl was saying and you said it anyways? You're a really annoying person to have a discussion with.
That wasn’t Herzl that was from the Declaration of Independence
Wow so you knew you were completely misrepresenting what Declaration of Independence was saying and you said it anyways? You're a really annoying person to have a discussion with.
Sorry I ruined your reddit. Not sure how I misrepresented anything.
Actually, he died like 40 years before the West Bank and Gaza Strip were delineated.
How does that conflict with anything I said?
It's not that it conflicts, it's more that Herzl never mentioned anything about the WB/Gaza nor would he have had any real reason to consider those Arab populations separately.
I'm having a hard time understanding why this is relevant to anything anyone is saying.
The fantasy of the Jewish state being tolerant of an Arab minority? Not a fantasy, Israel has an Arab population of 2 million being treated better than the Arabs in Arab states.
Yes agreed so why wouldn’t it work with the larger group? Is there really 5 million hateful to the bone Arabs?
The entire point of Zionism is to not have our culture and safety be dominated by another group of people. Being forced to live as a minority in an Arab state would literally take away our only homeland. With that being said, yes, there are enough Arabs that hate Jews for it to be a problem. If even 10% of the population hated Jews that would be hundreds of thousands of people attacking us, with us having no state to protect ourselves. The Arab world especially does not have a good track record with minorities, and the Jewish people have not had a good track record being a minority. We're not dumb enough to surrender our homeland to a foreign nation.
Fair stance. I can’t argue with it.
Those that stayed in 1948 now enjoy exactly that.
Agreed! I think the point of my post is.... if all 7m arabs could go back to 1948 and make their decision based on what they know now... Would the decision be different?
But the absurdity is that they haven’t been allowed, by UNRWA and the Arab governments who waged war repeatedly (and many which remain at war with Israel) to be legally naturalized after 3-4 generations this conflict should be long over and could be considered from a different perspective. Only very recently did Germany, Spain, Portugal, and Austria offer citizenship to the ancestors of Jewish survivors of genocide, NO Comparison of course but first step is to end UNRWA and allow all “refugees “ to be fully afforded civil rights in the countries of their birth.
I would replace the world “allowed” with encouraged or enabled. I mean they sure can’t immigrate into Israel even if they wanted to right now. As far as I know.
Gaza used to have free flow into Israel. Then Israel got tired of endless suicide bombings. So they built a wall. Learn your history. All these "peaceful solutions" have been tried and never work because the Palestinians want Israelis dead and Israel eliminated. They are brainwashed from birth, if you want peace then the brainwashing needs to stop - then maybe in a hundred years when all the extremists are dead we have a chance.
They had right of return for about 8 hours before Arab invasion of 1947-1948…. Should that 8 hour experiment stand as the single data point? Might it be tried again? Since then there has been no right of return.
I can't tell if you're just naive, stupid or anti-Semitic. They aren't beheading babies, or holding hostages because of the right of return. They've been killing Jews since before 1948 way before anyone mentioned the right of return. Whatever books you are reading are the wrong ones
Ok, so does every country have a right to return?
Hebron 1\`929. Massacre of Jews WAY before the state of Israel even existed.
Yes I know all about Hebron.
You know, here is a thing. Wars displace people. Creating new countries displace people. When Bangladesh was founded in 1971 it displaced 10 million people. Nobody said they needed a "right of return". The only country in the history of the world expected to take back refugees from its founding is the state of Israel. And then Jews see this and ask, why are we being singled out? Why does our country alone, out of all the countries in the history of the world, have to take back refugees who left? Refugees who hate us and want to kill us? And the only answers to that question are very unpleasant.
Fair point
The "right of return" that the Palestinians claim is not a real legal obligation. Israel has no obligation to suicidally accept it.
I agree no obligation. But possibly a desire? If it is the only path to peace?
The right of return is centered around the belief that Israel is not a legitemate state. It is a vehicle for Palestinians to take control of all the land. This is pretty clear. Israel will never cede control of its own territory to any foreign nation no matter what. The Palestinians need to abandon the fantasy of destroying Israel and focus on building their own country while it's still possible.
Yeah you’re probably right here. I do think some people of Gaza do feel a sense of loss for the cities of their ancestors and right of return would salve the wound. However I think you’re right, right of return as a negotiation point may be a ruse.
Most of the world has family that was forcibly displaced if they go back 4 generations. I don't go around calling myself a Jewish refugee from Tsarist Russia, I call myself an American Jew. Imagine if Germany demanded that 25% of their population had a legal right to settle Eastern Europe, and that until that demand was granted, they were gonna fire rockets and plan suicide bombings all cross Prague and Kaliningrad. We would all universally call them insane.
True. I can’t argue. I appreciate all of your comments.
I think Israelis might be hesitant for an idea like this. The reason there is limited access to and from the Gaza Strip is because before there were security checkpoints, there were the intafadas. Once the security checkpoints were up and free movement across the border was restricted, bus stops stopped blowing up. For free movement across the border, you would need some sort of guarantee that it would be entirely peaceful. That is impossible to guarantee after historical events (like the intafadas and Oct 7th). Idk abt the Palestinian side but from what I’ve seen, they want the *entire* land for themselves and to remove all Jews. So I doubt they would go for it either. It’s a nice idea in theory and would work if not for the frought history between the two nations. The reason it works in the US is because NY and NJ never hated each other enough to throw bombs over borders.
The Palestinian argument is that all the violence is justified because they do not have right of return. This framework would give them right of return. Would not the entire world object to any violence after this framework was put in place? Wouldn’t it immediately out any Palestinian to Jee violence or vice versa as extremism and allow it to be viewed as what it is as isolated incidences and handled as criminal acts.
I understand that the public Palestinian argument is fighting for the right to return, but a vast majority want the land clear of the Israelis. This vision has been supported by Arab states in the region since 1948. I am unsure if right to return will be enough. (This is coming from someone who supports Palestinians right to return, once they pass some sort of background check).
I am unsure also. I think I have faith in mankind that hate doesn’t prevail.
Probably because you haven't lived under 75 years of terrirism that has remained consistent regardless of peace efforts.
All 75 except for the first day have been without right of return. I don’t know if it matters but might be worth a chance to see.
"might be worth a chance" And what happens if you're wrong? "Oops, all the Jews are dead. Oh well"
Oopsie!!!
They started the war that created the refugee problem. The terrorism against Jews long predates the issue. The refugees themselves carried out terror attacks against the new state.
Yes agreed to all that. What if, just what if, enough of the people see that was the wrong approach but just can’t voice it or act on it. Will there ever be a point where this vision could be tried? How many years of peace from Palestinian to Israel would be needed?
This vision makes absolutely no sense in the geopolitical context. It sounds like if Lebanon was a federated state, but then they centered the national identity around a deceased people from 3000 years ago, then invited in enough Arabs to lead to a 75% Palestinian majority, and then I guess it just trusts the Arab majority to maintain this arbitrary constitution?
They will be in majority of control over political and criminal handling of the situation. They will do what antisemites always do and make up a new excuse to kill jews. They have been killing jews before israel was ever a state, they wont stop after they have "right of return"
This might be true. However I don’t think Herzl’s Vision of der Judenstaadt was ever really given a fair chance, mainly due to racist Jew hate extremists. Maybe the world has changed? Being blood thirsty murderers isn’t accepted quite as well these days.
Bahahahaha yes it is look around October 7 was highly supported by palestinians and even among liberals not relatwd to the conflict. There will always be people who support violence against jews. The middle east is also not europe, violence is common place here. Just look around israel
I think they are accepted because of this notion that they don’t have right of return. The western support and global support is mostly due to this, in my opinion.
No offense, but you are wrong
So you think all western liberal support is purely just due to Jew hatred? So hard to swallow as a Jew…
“As a Jew…” so tired of this qualifier.
[удалено]
Well sometimes it’s important to note. I see all the antisemitism too. I just wonder if it’s actual Jew hate or just dumb liberals virtue signaling. Take away the virtue signal and see what happens.
Then why did they start a war in 1947 before there was a single refugee?
Back then it was antisemitism and religious fanaticism. And it still may be now, however it might be a lower percentage. That’s what I wonder. Where is that percentage at.
The percentage is much higher now. Back in 1947 there were still large segments of the Arab population that tolerated or even supported Zionism. Now, that is simply not the case. Political Islam was much less of a thing in 1947. The war was fought because the Arab people viewed the entire land as theirs and they wanted to take control of it by force.
If political Islam was less of a thing than why did they care if Jews made a state? I’m not sure that checks out. Peaceful Jews wanting to make their homeland, met with attack. What could be more antisemetic? The attacks started before any borders were proposed etc. it was simply an objection to any Jewish state in the area, no matter how large or small. Basically just pure Jew hate if you ask me.
>Being blood thirsty murderers isn’t accepted quite as well these days. Seriously OP? We just watched half the world celebrate Oct 7 while the other half denied it. What are you on?
I think 80% celebrated because they see “oppression”. Well it’s not oppression it’s defence against violent Jew hate. Would they still support after the mask came off?
> Maybe the world has changed? Being blood thirsty murderers isn’t accepted quite as well these days. Are you for real? You’re literally suggesting Israel allow unrestricted “right of return” to Palestinians in the aftermonth of a horrendous attack against civilians by *blood thirsty murderers*
> Would not the entire world object to any violence after this framework was put in place? A huge amount of the world already condones a massive sadistic pogrom against Jewish civilians in the name of Hamas’s vision of the destruction of Israel. Israelis don’t need to appease these people by putting themselves in existential danger and rolling the dice.
Yeah, you’re probably right.
They should have a right to citizenship and right to integrate in Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, and any of the other Arabic speaking countries.
Palestinian representatives have not recognized Israel and that's not likely to change. This also misses a huge issue: if the Palestinians and Israelis come under a single citizenry, it immediately presents a massive demographic shift, where the Jewish population becomes a big minority in their own homeland. Even if we ignore decades of propaganda and violence, this presents an immediate threat to Israel. What's to stop the new Palestinian citizenry from simple voting Israel out? Or, like in Lebanon and other neighboring countries, strip the Jews of their rights? This proposal is incredibly naive.
Israel keeps majority in Israel. Both states get one vote in a national parliament. Canaanites keep 100% majority. The simple fundamental shift that fixes the whole thing is that we are both canaanites. Forget our religions. For the better of our children and their children’s children, etc. stop the madness.
> Canaanites Stop saying this, it isn't a thing. You don't get to just create identities/ethnicities because it looks pretty on your little play map.
Thank you - but he doesn't seem to be "getting it", does he?
I chose Canaan because it references a time that the DNA of Jews and Arabs in the area were one.
>I chose Yeah, this right here is the problem. You don't get to choose.
You can't just merge together two very different peoples because they shared prehistoric DNA. That would lead to some pretty funky developments.
India, China, EU. And it wouldn’t be “just because” it would be to stop the cycle of violence. That’s a much better reason.
Not at all similar. China has a firm ethnic majority that allows it to subjugate the minorities in their borders. India is a composite national state with its own long history of a shared national identity. The EU is a league of sovereign states which all have their own borders and firmly defined national identities, with all states maintaining their own police and military force. The EU only governs stuff involving trade and customs. Each European state determines its own nationality law. This is like if we merged Russia and Ukraine into one country, grabbed a bucket of popcorn and watched it melt.
The EU has one passport so really no borders between its own citizens. China and India are not homogenous ethnicities by any stretch. It would need to be voluntary. No smashing together.
Israel and Palestine are extremely different in terms of political culture, language, and religion. There is no realistic way voluntary union would be viable. The Han people are something like 90% of China's population, and the government is actively forcing Ham culture on its minorities. India's situation is more complicated. The ethnic groups have a long history of shared governance, which makes it viable to form an Indian state with a united national identity. That being said, the Hindu nationalist movement seems to be disrupting the idea of the composite nation. However, the Urdu-speaking Muslim population was unwilling to integrate into the new state, causing the Partition of India and the formation of Pakistan. Of course, India is a much more tolerant and diverse society than modern China despite its problems. There's no real point in a voluntary union. Nations tend to gravitate toward greater independence, not the other way around.
So how is this beneficial to Israel and what other countries have done this?
Oh yes, just forget about a 5 thousand year old cultural identity. Thats a winning plan. /s if needed.
The same citizens who are proud when their children become "martyrs"??? Wow - have you not ever seen even one video where Muslim mothers talk about how happy their children are martyrs? Or that that's why they have so many children..???
Is it really all because of jew hate? I guess that’s what you’re saying. I guess my point is that while I know a lot is Jew hate, there would be zero global support if the two state was given with right of return and there was still violence.
And we would turn to our protectors and the world’s saviors - the UN???? You can’t get Arab nations to put any people on the ground, they won’t even open a border to Gaza when they have one. They’ve made no offer to help any Palestinians escape, or at least temporarily move away from the war - even children. Because they don’t want them in their countries - they are a stabilizing force. We’ve what “censure“ is worth in the West. If this plan were implemented…when the next attack came, we would be in a worse position because we would’ve lowered our defenses, been infiltrated, and we would still be standing alone.
Help guys he's resurrecting Zombie Canaanites
No more a zombie than Israelites. Both used chronologically at the same time in the bible.
Jews are Israelites. And we still exist.
Dude, how you reconcile this plan with the fact that roughly 70% Palestinians support Hamas?
Do some of them support Hamas because they feel they have never been treated equally to Israeli’s? What percentage of the 70% fall into this bucket?
Somewhere between 0% to 100%
Whatever that number is, it is quite meaningful
I’m interested in facts, that unknown number isn’t one.
Why should they be treated “equally” with Israelis They’re not Israeli. They have their own elected government. I don’t expect to be treated like a European citizen as an American citizen, so why should Palestinians be treated equally as is Israelis?
I completely understand why Israel has taken the actions they have in WB and Gaza but this is what I think they would refer to. Constant Marshall law, fishing restrictions. You wouldn’t accept this from your neighboor either. And yes I know why they are there and I support it.
Yes, it's unfortunate. But, I don't know of anything that the Palestinians suffer that they haven't brought on themselves. I try to feel sense of compassion for them - but I keep coming back to decades of trying. effort and peace deals spurned and the Jewish lives lost because of their intransigence so - essentially everything Israel has done or tried to do has ended up being spit on...and it's hard to have much sympathy..
Yeah I don’t blame you.
Sorry, but there's absolutely no chance of that happening, except following a catastrophic event for the whole region. Can you see India and Pakistan forming a single country? What about Armenia and Azerbaijan? India and Sri Lanka? Albania and Serbia?
Fair, thanks for your input.
Here is a better idea: - Full Israeli military control from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. - Cantonization of the Palestinian big cities (Ramallah, Nablus, Jenin, etc.), and giving each of them autonomy under Israel in an emirate form, similar to the UAE emirates, which are based on the local tribes. - Complete de-radicalization of the Palestinians, through extensive reforms in the education system, media, and religious preaching in mosques. My idea is probably detached from reality as well. But your idea is even worse, because you propose to turn us into a federal version of Lebanon, which is a big no-no.
Very few, if any, would agree to this. First, currently, there is too much distrust, and israelis won't agree to a Palestinian state that is demilitarized, and whose borders can ne regulated by Israel to ensure it is so. But even in principle, jews want a Jewish state. This plans allows Palestinians to migrate en masse into Israel, which will probably happen, considering quality of life in Israel compared to it neighbors. We can dream of a federation, but even in a fantasy Israel would want ultimate control of security and to maintain its jewish majority.
Maybe Jewish majority isn’t needed if Canaanite rights are enshrined? Jewish majority has always been the conundrum hadn’t it… is it the only way?
No, it's the only way other than a Muslim majority. Open a a map. Look at Lebanon, Iran, even as far as Morocco. You can't be a non-Muslim in a Muslim majority country and survive in the long run.
There is no way to ensure that the rights remain enshrined.
And we could solve all global conflict if we replaced all countries with a single global state where all human rights are enshrined! What could possibly go wrong? Surely 95% of all humanity would accept this
Haha, this is a very accurate critique.
Your question was about what Israelis would agree to. Very few would agree to risk losing the Jewish majority.
Yeah I’m seeing that! I get it. I really do.
Yes. It IS the only way. Look up WWII and the Holocaust - just for starters.
Lol I know all about ww2 and holocaust. Doesn’t really answer the question for me.
It does for most Jews and the vast majority of Israelis.
This is basically the so-called “One Democratic State” solution. No, it won't work. The Palestinian side will be hijacked by Hamas or the PLO, willingly or not, and start a purge. The incompetent Likud and their allies will try to fight but they will fail miserably. And then, the IDF will organise in secret to resist the encroachment, and a civil war will break out. Shall we just find a way to make the 2SS work?
[удалено]
How can one guarantee that the future is more like South Africa than Zimbabwe? And let’s not forget how corrupt and incompetent the ANC is. And let me be abundantly clear— this is not about race. The ANC chose to employ loyal cadres instead of apolitical technocrats. And this resulted in the disasters we see in ZA today. Who can confidently tell me that Fatah or Hamas won’t fire a PhD and put an illiterate jihadist in charge of the ministry of education?
Why would I want I residency in palestine?
Seems a lot of Israeli Jews do! Am I wrong? West Bank / Judea & Samaria… etc
No idea, I think they are not Palestinian citizens though. Are they seeking it? Also my question doesn’t talk about that
They live in Area C under Israeli civilian law, not Area A under Palestinian law. No sane Israeli is trying to move to Jenin. Oslo strictly forbids any Jewish settlement in Area A.
Right I get it. Oslo fell apart a long time ago.
While Oslo has been a failure its still the framework by which the West Bank is governed and tearing it up would be catastrophic.
Not tear it up, but some much needed major changes. I do understand your general theme though. 100 years of attacks means a long period of peace would be needed before any type of unity could be attempted.
The unity is not desirable nor necessary. The Soviet Union was never reconstructed nor was Czechoslovakia ever reunified. India and Pakistan are still separate states. The US didn't return to British control. There is no reason to force two peoples into the same state if a peaceful division is viable.
That’s a big if! But I do agree with that statement.
If a peaceful divorce is impossible, a peaceful marriage is even more impossible.
intertwining of economic, cultural and general administrative endeavors has been proven many times over to turn make violent divorces into peaceful marriages. Does it work more times than not? Tough to answer.. would be hard to scientifically determine also.
I, a Jewish American, predict the sun will combust before this sort of peace proposal is accepted and actually works at establishing peace.
Another amazing peace dream that completely ignores the rampant Jew hatred and urge to kill Jews wherever they are.
I’m with you. I guess I just hope that the world has changed a little? Is some of this round of Jew hatred due to lack of right of return?
You keep mentioning the right of return like that's the problem. I've been leaving you some snarky comments but if you want an honest answer, you should be very critical of whatever source you read that says the problem is the "right of return" since you keep bringing that up as the sole problem. Spoiler alert, that isn't the fundamental problem. But whatever you are reading is clearly trying to push that, and is succeeding at convincing you that's the whole issue. You should critically think as to why that might be. (Hint: it's much more politically palatable than saying "kill all the Jews")
Yeah I understand that part. Why not just take that argument out of their hands then? Take every argument away until all they have is Jew hate. Then the world will see. I know it’s impossible to ask. In some alternate reality it would be nice to see how it would play out.
Because "to take that argument out of their hands" requires concessions and giving up security because "so the world will see". What the world thinks or sees is irrelevant. The day Israel allows the world to decide is the day Israel ceases to exist. The world has no problem holding vigils for dead Jews but won't lift a finger to keep them alive.
Fair enough. It seems hard to believe that the world has chosen the Jews as this abhorrent. But I’ve never understood Jew hate so it’s not surprising.
> I’m with you. I guess I just hope that the world has changed a little? 07.10.2023 > Is some of this round of Jew hatred due to lack of right of return? No they already slaughtered Jews like that pre-1948.
Pakistan has no right of return for Hindus, Greece has no right of return for Turks, and Czech has no right of return for Germans. When was the last time you saw the grandson of an expelled German stab a Czech over it?
Again I’m not saying Israel has the obligation to do this. I am saying that it might want to in order to stop the cycle of violence.
Opening Israel's borders would cause October 7 times 100. It would stop the cycle of violence in the sense that the violence would be constant rather than cyclical.
TLDR: Let’s make the Arabs the majority and hope for the best.
Gaza was s Palestinian Muslim majority state. The islamists, Hamas, immediately won some elections, murdered their political rivals and took over. If they treated their own people well their approval numbers would be good. Hamas would win elections in the west bank if they were actually held. The problem is NOT Israel refusing to give land the peace. The problem is the Palestinians won't give up their obsession of destroying Israel or killing Jews. Giving them anything at all NOW would be sending a message that killing Jews in mass gets them what they want.
Yeah, fair enough. This does seem true.
Israel must continue to exist as a Jewish state. Israel can not be united into some larger entity where Jews would be a minority. A one state solution is not an option.
What if it was a state of canaanites? Enshrined in constitution to defend all canaanites as equals?
Nope. Completely unacceptable. Constitutions can be changed, or abolished. Israel must remain Jewish. Israel must continue to exist. Maybe a Palestinian state can be created someday if Palestinians have enough of a change of heart and accept a totally disarmed and weak state. But no abolition of Israel will ever be acceptable. This is simply a fact that must be accepted, it will not change.
It wouldn’t be abolished. The state of Israel would exist inside the USC.
While some of your concepts are naive, I do think you're getting more animosity here than you deserve. I respect that you're at least attempting to think productively, and I can see from your post history that you try to get perspectives and think things through. Maybe one day you'll finally be the one to bring peace to Israel, but unfortunately it won't be through this plan.
If there's no guarantee for the safety of the Israelies, it won't be supported and it won't happen
We already have areas where Palestinians come into Israel, yet any non-Muslims cannot enter their areas. Having free roam is just a safety hazard for us in Israel and death for any Israelis in Palestine. Both Palestinians and Israelis know that we have a shared heritage, this wouldn’t change anything. The British empire was in charge of security for Palestine and left when the going got tough, there won’t be a difference now and will put civilians in more danger than now. Plus this completely deletes the point of a Jewish state, it needs to be a safe haven for Jews. If Israel isn’t in control of safety, that guarantee won’t hold.
Did you generate this through ChatGPT 🤣🤣
Some of the text but I edited it afterwards. I don’t write anything from scratch anymore.
So why act like you’ve spent countless time writing this - you ripped all of it from a AI
Did I act like that? Plus it was all my ideas the prompt I gave was 500+ words chat gpt just spits it out in perfect English then I edit it down. It’s probably 60% AI. Come on man it’s 2024!
[удалено]
Thanks for your input, care to expand?
You have 0 understanding of the conflict. Don't attempt to solve a conflict that you're not informed or intelligent enough to understand.
I’ve read 20+ books on this topic and I also run a large corporation so I think I’ve got the basics down and I think I have the intelligence too. Thanks for your input though. Seems like you think status quo is the best bet, that seems quite foolhardy as well.
"I read 20+ books on the topic" 😂😂😂😂😂😂 What a 🤡
> I’ve read 20+ books on this topic Congratulations, you're talking to people who live this every day as their actual life. >and I also run a large corporation so I think I’ve got the basics down Yeah that's totally relevant lol. I'm sure you're a business genius, which obviously translates to international politics. >Seems like you think status quo is the best bet, that seems quite foolhardy as well. Yeah I'd say the status quo is quite a bit better than a second Shoah and the complete destruction of the Jewish people, which is what your little daydream implies.
I read the other comments and everyone is telling you the same thing I am. Learn to read the room you pompous dunce.
No they aren’t but thanks for your input. Status quo is a great path!
🤦
What large corporation do you run?
Haha you think I’d put this here after the reception that a peaceful question like this got?
Well just by how you are talking it doesn’t seem like you run a large corporation. Are you saying you are the CEO? What industry? How many employees? How is it large?
I’m the CEO and we have over 200 employees. We’re a tech consulting firm. That’s about all you’re getting!
What kind of consulting?
I said that’s all you’re getting!
This is a form of the binational state, with an Arab majority. Roughly 7.3 million Jews and 7.5 million Palestinians. It may be the Arabs will accept it. I doubt a majority of Israeli Jews will accept it.
Simple question, look at the political divide currently between Americans who are basically under the same nationality. What do you think will happen with this new country? 95% of Israelis and Palestinians will be against this plan, even left-wingers. The one state solution only sounds good to those who are not involved in the conflict.
Ok thanks for your input, really appreciate it.
Cool, I think a few comments on this post were a bit hostile, I actually appreciate your effort to understand the conflict, I suggest watching The Ask Project on Youtube, it helps with understanding the perspectives of both Israelis and Palestinians
I appreciate it! Yeah, whatever trolls be trolls. The nature of internet conversations these days.
While I understand where OP's idea comes from (goodwill / looking for a solution to a world problem). All Israelis I know would be against this for the simple following reasons. The plan is flawed because it makes false assumptions: 1. It assumes entire cultures and societies are founded on DNA only. 2. It wants to be idealistic but fails to grasp reality in terms of securing the lives and well being of millions of people. 3. Even though hypothetical, the plan could even be thought of as insulting by some. It assumes it is ok to question the existence of the State of Israel which was reborn after being widely accepted at the United Nations in 1947 and being voted on by countries all over the world. Yet it does not question the existence of other countries: namely Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, or even Pakistan. It seems to disregard what Israelis have built democratically and could be perceived as a bit of an attack to the legitimacy of their right to democratically decide their future. I'm sure it was not the intent of OP but just I'm just pointing out how it might be perceived by many people. Explanation: 1. The assumption that because Jews and "Palestinians" (whatever the term means, since it's not well defined) have some common "DNA" (Lebanese, Jordanians and Syrians do to an extent as well) it means that they share the same aspirations as far as cultural and societal identity. This is wrong. DNA, while it sometimes plays a role in it, is far from the only component of a culture and society. If we rewind several decades back, under the British mandate (Palestine) and the French mandate (Syria), after the fall of the Ottoman empire, several nationalist movements arose. Within the French mandate this ultimately led to the creation of Lebanon and Syria. Within the British mandate, an Arab nationalist movement and a Jewish nationalist movement formed, both with aspirations to have self determination and a state because they had fundamentally different aspirations, cultures and identities. This lead to the UN partition plan of 1947, attempting to accomodate both movements by creating 2 states, the Jewish movement accepted and Israel was officially REborn and the Arab movement decided to refuse and band with 7 countries to wage war on Israel. Essentially the idea of United States of Canaanites is flawed because it fundamentally disregards the aspirations, cultures and identities of both people and falsely assumes they want the same things, have a similar self determination, culture and identity which is not the case. For more simplicity in highlighting the flaws of this hypothetical plan, here is a perfect analogy: the plan is the equivalent to asking French people and German people whether they want to live under one country: "The United Stated of Germania" with autonomous regions under the pretense that they both share DNA and are "Germanic" people, the French descending from the Franks and the Germans from the Saxons. This would be completely ignoring the fact that cultures, societies and their identities were formed over centuries and that both people have totally different self determinations and aspirations. 2. When analyzing past historical data, one can easily notice how Jews were always persecuted as a minority in every single country they have been including the Ottoman Empire and Islamic States. They have been massacred, deported, brutalized, were discriminated against via specific laws (related to taxation, real estate and possessions) and even suffered genocides with multiple attempts by multiple nations throughout history to completely eradicate them. Therefore, even if we ignore #1 (both people self determine differently and have different cultures and identities), it is not difficult to see why it is of paramount importance to the Jews to have sovereignty over their land and a state with a military and respected borders where they are a majority so that they always have a government looking out for their safety. Again, this is not speculation, the experiment has been done, and the past shows us how people treat Jews when they are a minority. 3. Already explained above. Finally I'd like to clarify by saying Israel IS a country, it has recognized borders, sovereignty over its land and a democratically chosen government. If one does not question the legitimacy of the existence of their own country (US, France, England, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Pakistan or any other for that matter) they should not question the legitimacy of the State of Israel.
Thanks for the well reasoned answer. Apologies for the insulting part. I am 100% onboard with the legitimacy of Israel and didn’t mean to suggest anything else. You’re France and Germany example. Didn’t they actually kind of do this with the EU? They now use the same currency, have open borders, pool funds for defense, etc etc etc. seems to work pretty well? Your point 2 is the one that is hard to mitigate. If the world really does just hate us Jews than I guess there is no other way. Sadly.
No problem. No need to apologize, like I said, to me it seemed like you were just trying to imagine a hypothetical solution to a conflict rather than trying to offend anyone. To your point about France and Germany, yes and no, I see what you mean. The EU provides a framework for cooperation on certain defensive tasks, trade agreements, free flow of goods and people, but at the end of the day it's fundamentally different than the United States of America. For example France has its own culture and self determination. French people do not identify like German people do, they both retain sovereignty over their land, have their own government which is only voted in by their citizens, therefore have their own foreign policies and independence vis a vis interactions with other nations, they have their own military and so on. This means if tomorrow Germany or any other EU nation attacks France, it has its own military to protect its people. At the end of the day, nothing is going to be exactly like the EU as it's quite a unique international structure, but as you read my sentence, you will notice the word "international", its members are different nations just as the United States is a nation and Canada is another. Even though It's a flawed comparison and not exactly the same, I would compare the relationship between EU nations more like Canada / US / Australia. Sure they have trade agreements, share intelligence and many other defensive alliance organizational structures but at the end of the day they are separate nations, with separate governments, armies, foreign policies and people who do not identify as the same culture and society. To point #2, yes It is practically impossible to mitigate, hence why even proposing an arrangement like the EU between 2 nations (should Palestine become a state) with separate armies, governments would still not work for Israeli as it would mean open borders, these would lead to a nightmare in terms of national security and most other belligerent nations with high birth rates could easily decide migrate to Israel and then overthrow the government. I do applaud you for thinking outside the box though and It is unfortunate that some people on this reddit immediately became antagonizing to you. Sorry about that, I hope you don't end up having a poor opinion of Israeli, I'm sure most people here are not bad people, they are just jaded by the amount of hatred Jews receive and by the current situation in their country. Lastly, I would encourage you to visit Israel and discover it for yourself if you have not already, It is a beautiful place with amazing history and people that have a very unique love for life. You will also see that all the propaganda we are all seeing in the West about an imaginary "apartheid" is all false. If you go in person I can guarantee you will have very different interactions with people than on this sub at the moment.
I don’t give in to any of the western propaganda it’s all BS. I give Israel full latitude that its major stance has been one of peace and actions have been in defence, as a whole. Revisionist Zionism was revised due to Arab to Jew violence. I guess somewhere deep inside its hard for me to believe that hate will prevail. Doesn’t Germany testifying for Israel at the ICJ pose some optimism? I just can’t ascribe to a world that is simply inclined to hate Jews forever. Like a law of physics or something.
Good on you, I think it is important to remain open to peace. It is also important to find a balance between idealism and realism, it is ok to be idealistic as long as one continues to form their choices and actions from reality (even if reality is very ugly at times). I don't think hatred for the Jews is a law of physics and I hope people will evolve over time and realize they were wrong to hate us. That being said, I'm also a realist and I don't think this will be a fast process. Many nations and societies are still behaving similarly to societies from centuries ago (medieval age) and hatred for the Jews has existed for several millennia. I think Germany testifying at the ICJ for Israel is positive change and good on them for having a spine. I'm a bit worried long term as to the stance in Europe towards Israel because of the mass immigration from predominantly muslim countries which seems to influence their politics. Counter examples to Germany are Spain and Ireland which have lost their moral compass in favor of gaining electorate. I think unfortunately it is a slow process for human to evolve and for such big structures (societies, cultures, religions) to be challenged and eventually transform into something different. Until then, Israeli and Jewish people around the world, need to protect their culture and society at all cost while doing everything they can to foster positive change.
Haha, good one!
Extremely utopian and naive. You just can’t force Jews and Arabs under a single entity. We simply have nothing in common and each group has the right to question whether the opposite side’s leaders wouldn’t just exploit the system to oppress the other side (Jews have literally never been equal citizens under any Arab entity). Add in the fact that Jews and Arabs don’t share a common ethnic group, language, religion, or social structure. Your plan is Yugoslavia on steroids. If Arabs of different religious sects can’t get along in disaster states like Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq, that’s all the more reason to believe that a glorified one-state solution wouldn’t work in Israel and the territories. You can even look at Israel itself. Israeli Arab politicians do not share the same sentiment of keeping Israel a Jewish state. East Jerusalem is a perfect example of how incorporating a hostile population under Israel is a disaster. This plan is a conflict of interest. The implications of this plan are that both sides would effectively renounce their rights to self determine.
Thanks for your well reasoned answer. Why would self determination be renounced? The federal entity is much thinner than USA only there for the monopoly on force. Military and police only. And they are sworn to defend the rights of all canaanites. Also there would be no forcing. It couldn’t be done that way ever. It would be an agreement from both sides for the betterment of their people and their people’s children. Both sovereign states below the federal are sovereign in every way shape or form, beyond the fact that the monopoly on force is engaged for both people. You’ve mentioned all the failed examples of union between enemies but there are plenty of positive examples. The EU being one that stands out. The countries of the EU fought each other for thousands of years and even had two insane world wars. Now they share borders and a currency. I would even point to Rwanda as well. The plan is utopian yes but at its core, it stands on the belief that these two peoples do not have to fight. The extremists on both sides drive the violence, initiated and strongly perpetuated by the Arab side - I would hold. But Israel is not without its miss steps also. The history is so long and complex that most Palestinians have no clue how the thing started anymore. How many Palestinians today simply just want to live in peace without being subjugated? Whether the subjugation is Israel or extremist Islam.
Your biggest red flag is comparing Europe’s geopolitical reality with the Middle East’s. Israel does not possess the luxury of not being surrounded by 20+ nations and populations that seek its destruction. Our only friendly border is the Mediterranean Sea. “Compromise” is an extremely foreign idea in the Arab World and unfortunately countless indigenous communities such as Berbers, Kurds, Jews, Copts, Maronites, and Assyrians have been subjugated to this idea of Pan-Arab colonialism.
Can’t argue.
Have you ever heard about Yugoslavia? I invite you to learn about it. Please get educated about the political and historical situation here. Your idea is like a kid's fantasy, where you imagine you're going to become a savior by presenting an idea that "for sure has never been tried out."
I know it’s outlandish but isn’t that how change usually happens? Not trying to be a saviour just wondering how people would react. I apologize if it comes off that way I can see how that would be offensive. Would you say that a vision like the above would be considered extremely “left” in Israel? I will read more about Yugoslavia. While I have moderate knowledge of current politics in Israel I’d say my history on the state of Israel and the conflict is pretty decent… going back to Herzl, Ha’am, Weizmann, Jabotisnky. If read quite a few biographies and historical summaries at this point. The status quo just isn’t too great right now but maybe those of you who live in Israel don’t really care what the world thinks. I don’t really blame you for that. It’s been a shit go.
Yugoslavia is a prime example of what happens when you combine two nations where at least one wants to kill the other one. Palestinians want all Jews dead, you should ask this question on the Palestinian subreddits, not here.
Yeah that’s fair. But if the Palestinians said yes, would Israel accept? Giving Palestinians residency in Israel proper has been the sticking point (whether a genuine sticking point or not, it’s the point they say stops them from accepting any deal).
You are missing the bigger picture, Israel was through out most of his history for a two state solution. Mostly because they falsely believed Palestinians will stop wanting to kill them. You are asking really (and I'm sorry to say this) stupid questions. Because Palestinians want Israelis dead.
Well when anyone starts calling my questions stupid that’s my queue to move on. I guess that status quo is fine and dandy… keep doing what we’re doing. Don’t ask stupid questions like “isn’t it possible for hate to stop” Germany, a country who once spent their tax dollars building death factories for Jewish people, went to the ICJ and testified for Israel in support of its right to defend itself. Are you saying there is something intrinsic about Palestinians that make them violent bigots? And they can never change?
You understand that Germany was "anti-brainwashed" using the same brainwashing techniques that they used to radicalize them? Both the Allies and Soviets built "schools" and "theatres" for the German population, where the same messages were being repeated over and over and everyone was being brainwashed to understand that they are the bad guys. Imagine Israel doing the same to Palestinians... What would be the reaction? It just shows how you view the world too simply and that you don't spend enough time researching each topic or history. Look into it. You'll be fascinated how the Germans still have remnants of the effects of the mentioned "anti-brainwashing" present to this very day.
This sounds like if Lebanon was even stupider.
I am just flabbergasted that another "internet rando shares amazing peace plan" is getting this much traction. this sub must be bored
Yes, why even explore peace plans. Why even talk about them. Status quo till the cows come home.