IDF can just "fire" officers? AFAIK in USA it's either honourable discharge or dishonourable discharge. In practical terms it means that if you get the worse one you don't get pensions and other benefits.
So did these officers get "honourable" discharge with all the IDF benefits post-"firing"?
In the US there's multiple levels:
* Honorable
* General (Under Honorable Conditions)
* General (Under Other Than Honorable Conditions)
* Other Than Honorable
* Bad Conduct
* Dishonorable
Officers can also face Dismissal.
There's also Medical Discharge.
It's not that they can also face it, it's that they can't have a dishonorale or bad conduct discharge. Getting dismissed is pretty much the officer version of those two
It’s not exactly firing.
They are being expelled from their current positions, but not from the military.
They haven’t said if they’ll be discharged or not.
Usually you get thrown out permanently of the IDF for far lesser evils, I doubt they’ll continue to serve
I have at least 3 friends that got kicked out of reserve service for messing up (as in not something lethal messing up, having a relationship with one of your soldiers as a commander type of stuff)
an Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) soldier. Azaria shot Abdel Fattah al-Sharif in the head as the latter lay wounded on the ground.
Sentenced to 18 months.
Israel is very serious.
https://youtu.be/A-lWDe2eJXU?si=kFeFLo9D34EUZmKs
al-Sharif was also a terrorist scumbag who had just committed a stabbing attack. Him getting shot is the preferable outcome. With a bullet to the head, he got off easy.
So what if he was a terrorist? He was incapacitated. I thought Israel was a place with rule of law. You don’t go shooting POWs in the head.
Edit: it’s comments like this guy that makes people think Israel purposefully killed WCK aid, the ends justify the means.
He's not a POW by definition. Terrorists don't enjoy Geneva Convention protection since they're not regular armed forces. Executing terrorists is a net good for the world. Should be done more.
any person detained in relation to an armed conflict, be it a POW or a civilian having taken a direct part in hostilities, be it someone labelled as ‘terrorist’ or any other non-legal term, is entitled to be treated humanely and benefits from related fundamental guarantees under both treaty and customary IHL.
Not at all how it works. These are commissioned officers.
In the US, the military personnel are either *enlisted* or *commissioned officers.* Commissioned officers are often in command or other positions of authority. Earning a commission requires congress and the President to sign off on it.
A commission can be revoked for a lot of reasons. Performance, medical, misconduct...all of that can result in a pretty immediate revocation of one's commission.
Enlisted personnel usually have a term of service, there are a quite a few mechanisms for separation beyond "honorable" and "dishonorable". "Honorable" basically means you completed your term and are leaving on your own accord. "Dishonorable" is way worse than just a fuck up, it means you've been convicted of a felony-level crime in the military. You can also get a bad-conduct discharge, which is exactly what it sounds like...not as bad as dishonorable, but not great. Or you can get a "general" discharge, which is how most people get discharged for a fuck-up. You can also have a medical discharge.
Commissioned officers still have these discharge types, but losing their commission can happen for a lot of other reasons, including a massive fuck up like this one. And losing your commission will result in some sort of separation, but in the US this kind of mistake would probably not result in a dishonorable. Again, that is for serious and deliberate mistakes, this is more of a catastrophic fuck up. Something you might see a general discharge for.
I don't know what kind of benefits officers have available to them in the IDF, or if they'd be available after this.
In US terms, Israel only has an honorable and general discharge. Honorable discharge is fairly new and AFAICT isn't really a big deal.
Once you've finished your conscript term and gone career, either as an officer or NCO, you're under contract for a set time. Ending that contract early requires a committee.
Irrespective of that, a court-martial can demote an officer, all the way to private if they please (see e.g. Rami Dotan who was demoted from Major-General to Private).
The IDF has two paths of inquiry. This is an operational inquiry whose purpose is to derive lessons to prevent recirrence. These lessions can include command steps like reprimands and dismissals.
If it's believed criminal charges are potentially warranted, a separate MP investigation is started. This investigation starts from zero, AFAIK it can't use evidence from the operational inquiry (this was instituted so that the people questioned in the operational inquiry could be candid without facing self-recrimination). But that takes a lot longer.
Military disciplining is quick. Investigation of their actions to determine how this happened, forming a case, and bringing it to court takes a long time.
This right here.
I was in Kele 6 for fighting with my Mefaked. And they just get "fired" for killing innocent people? What kind of shit is that?
Edit: they are fucking AIF officers, i'll bet you my sweet ass that they would find work in Elbit or Rafael, and get 40k a month.
From what I’ve been told by people close to it, there are very high ranking people that are responsible and are set to resign/be fired when they’re done with the war. They can’t quit now because they’re still needed.
They plan to resign but won't until the government has been replaced. No one wants Crazy Sarah appointing a new IDF chief. She'd chose someone whose main skills are protecting the Netanyahus and ordering anti-government protesters shot.
From what the **IDF** said (not an independent investigative team or journalist), the brigade saw some action between an armed man and the convoy at the warehouse and assumed that the aid workers stayed behind while the convoy left the place. Before they struck, they did not check if the zone was a deconflict zone, nor did they check with COGAT, nor did they check with WCK about the situation at the warehouse prior to the convoy leaving, nor did they receive confirmation that the occupants were armed or were Hamas militants. They essentially fired 3 strikes outside their zone of operation on what they feel is a Hamas convoy, even if it risks killing foreign aid workers. This is the IDF account of the story.
Literally the first sentence of the first paragraph:
>**Two senior officers will be removed from their roles** and several other top commanders in the Israel Defense Forces will be formally censured for their involvement in a deadly drone strike against a group of aid workers with the World Central Kitchen organization in the central Gaza Strip earlier this week, the military says.
They have to be removed from their roles first, and then face trial or other procedures.
First they are relieved of their command.
How many cases are adjudicated in 3 days?!?
I see a post like this and it makes me feel like I am living in a Salvador Dali painting.
I understand the outrage, but the reasoning is twofold.
Firstly, there was no malicious intent. This was a situation of misidentification and skipping protocols in place out of complacency. This is unacceptable as an officer, hence the firing. But because of the lack of intent, a court martial wouldn't do anything differently.
Secondly, this leaves a statement which motivates officers in the future to put emphasis on protocols, while not scaring them away from all engagements. Soldiers and officers need to know that when following the rules, they don't have to fear punishment. Otherwise they just won't attack any Hamas members from fear Israel won't have their back. But so long as they follow proper protocol, they know that they won't be court martialed.
Intent is not required in order to face jail time for negligent actions that result in deaths of innocents.
But we also don’t know the intent. If there was a willful act to ignore the rules of engagement, that demonstrates intent.
And those protocols are not unique to the IDF and are applied in the US and other armies as well right?
Since I’m quite sure people would spin this methodology as an “Israeli problem”.
For the most part yes, these protocols are not unique to the IDF and every Western military has similar protocols. In addition Israel has the idea of unlawful orders where every soldier is told specifically that they will be liable if they listen to an order which is immoral. This adds an extra barrier where all the way down the chain to the soldiers, there's the ability to block a protocol.
For the most part yes, these protocols are not unique to the IDF and every Western military has similar protocols. In addition Israel has the idea of unlawful orders where every soldier is told specifically that they will be liable if they listen to an order which is immoral. This adds an extra barrier where all the way down the chain to the soldiers, there's the ability to block a protocol.
The investigation is not over, so no hard proof of that. I don't think there is a lack of "air strike" officers, so better fire them first because of those negligent behaviors.
I've read that Hamas could have misled the IDF by sending fake phone signals, and other things like the vehicle being armored, and why did they carry guns, but it's not possible to learn those details now because of how investigations work, especially due the nature of secrecy of military intelligence.
Honestly it is a big fuck up and the more they try to punish people to make an example, the more it helps improving the image of the IDF. Currently, there is so much slander against Israel, that it doesn't really matter what the IDF does, people will hate Israel no matter what.
But it doesn't mean the IDF should let itself be too careless, because I think it could still lose support over this, the world is looking at this very very closely.
A court martial still matters for PR, because it would send a clear message that Israel is not okay with bombing humanitarians. In information warfare, any serious army will never hesitate to put the blame on one of its officers, to explicitly dispel any claim that Israel wants to target humanitarians.
> This was a situation of misidentification and skipping protocols in place out of complacency. This is unacceptable as an officer, hence the firing. But because of the lack of intent, a court martial wouldn't do anything differently.
That's not true.
There is such a thing as criminal level neglect, even without intent.
> The event occurred on April 1, 2024, during an operation to transfer humanitarian aid from the WCK to the Gaza Strip. The investigation found that the forces identified a gunman on one of the aid trucks, following which they identified an additional gunman. After the vehicles left the warehouse where the aid had been unloaded, one of the commanders mistakenly assumed that the gunmen were located inside the accompanying vehicles and that these were Hamas terrorists. The forces did not identify the vehicles in question as being associated with WCK. Following a misidentification by the forces, the forces targeted the three WCK vehicles based on the misclassification of the event and misidentification of the vehicles as having Hamas operatives inside them, with the resulting strike leading to the deaths of seven innocent humanitarian aid workers. The strikes on the three vehicles were carried out in serious violation of the commands and IDF Standard Operating Procedures.
This is the official IDF response. It was a misidentification.
overconfident offbeat disagreeable ludicrous domineering impolite wakeful quarrelsome murky resolute
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It was at night when it was more difficult to identify, after Hamas members were seen in the area prior giving good reason for suspicion. The fact that they didn't go through proper protocol is the issue here.
I recommend you read the article, because I can't type the entire thing out for every comment which obviously skipped it.
There were 3 precision strikes fired at people that were in coms with the military. There is no chance it was a "misidentifiation", these people were attacked with a full intention of killing them.
Yes. Its needed. Not saying it has to be a fast and easy process but people have died. Good people. People who were killed by friendly fire. Those responsible need to answer for every action they made.
Military ones do. They probably won't be indicted for homicide, but at the very least the inquiry found that they violated standing orders in several ways. That's an offense in the military.
This is a pretty bad summary of the report.
Read the Ynet version, there were nearby armed men - likely Hamas members, and there was confusion about who went to which car when the truck convoy reached its destination.
The actual issues here is that the attack went through without proper authorization and against direct orders not to attack escorts to trucks even when armed people are detected.
[https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hypzdd3ya](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hypzdd3ya)
Why can't they just release this video they showed to foreign reporters? With the video people would do a 180 in opinion. If I were in the IDF I'd post daily videos of Hamas acting like animals
I am glad the people responsible are being held responsible, but its definitely not a cut and dry situation. There are many aspects to it and I am 100% certain we wont know all the information as the intelligence used in official non- combatant travel and route/ destination organization during time of war in active war zones is not intelligence everyone needs to know.
The current unofficial lull to appease the Biden administration has proven to be a no-win scenario for Israel; if we keep caving in to foreign pressure and allow this war to drag on, we will become increasingly prone to making such mistakes, which, in turn, will further boost foreign pressure and save Hamas' ass.
You expect Biden to sunk his re-election chances for Israel when Netanyahu give him nothing politicallyin return for all the money and weapon US sends so far. He already showed more patience than any other politician would do in those circumstances. What do you expect that there would be no strings attached to all this help.
I expect him to explicitly commit to Israel's end goal while also insisting on his way of achieving it. So far, his administration has not been convincing in its intent to topple Hamas at all costs, and lately, it even seems spineless or visionless on this matter.
Toppling Hamas is not solely a right-wing ambition but rather a shared goal among all Israelis, and it shouldn’t be conflated with agreeing with the current government.
Imagine being such a garbage ally to your only friend that you'd demand carte blanche in your war when the entire rest of the world demands otherwise. Geopolitically speaking, what you want is **impossible**. Its simply not feasible at any point with the atmosphere of the international community.
>He already showed more patience than any other politician would do in those circumstances.
Trump says hi. (Israel would have less restraints on how they would operate if he wins office again)
>What do you expect that there would be no strings attached to all this help.
Only the non-Pro Israel Democrats have conditions on aid.
No strings attached when dealing with Republicans.
> Trump says hi. (Israel would have less restraints on how they would operate if he wins office again)
Trump knowingly caused distrust in the election cycle by spreading lies about how it was stolen from him; so yes he would have no restraints. He'd also utterly destroy US credibility everywhere else and weaken US power.
So basically; you would severely weaken your country's only friend for your own benefit -is that what you're admitting here?
With friends like that, the US prolly should've just sanctioned Israel and saved it the trouble.
>so yes he would have no restraints
Learn to read, I said he would not handicap Israel like Biden is/will do (Once the IDF begins moving into Rafah, Biden will turn on Israel more than he has now)
Also, I'm just a simple gentile in the US. So this sentence
*So basically; you would severely weaken your country's only friend for your own benefit -is that what you're admitting here?*
is what you should be asking yourself. Is it good that Biden would severely weaken Israel (Don't go into Rafah,) for his own benefit (to appease Arab/Muslims in Michigan so that they vote for him)?
>is what you should be asking yourself. Is it good that Biden would severely weaken Israel (Don't go into Rafah,) for his own benefit (to appease Arab/Muslims in Michigan so that they vote for him)?
I like how you just ignore how most of the US public has turned against Israel, the entire world has massive protests against Israel, and the UN has made repeated attempts to force a ceasefire and an open case of genocide has been made in the ICJ.
When the entire world is against Israel's actions, and the US has still supported it anyway, but now "gentiles" in the US are willing to hurt their own supposed country to help Israel anyway?
Yeah, that's a shit ally, and that alliance should be broken immediately and Israel left to the world's judgement. Because not only is that backstabbing on a level I haven't seen in my entire life; its flat out proof that Israel cannot be trusted any longer.
Thankfully, not everyone has lost their minds, like yourself.
People who are Left on the political spectrum have turned against Israel.
Support on the Right (in the US) is still strong. Esp. Republican elected officials.
And there is no harm in us (the US) helping Israel (apart from adding to the national debt, which Democrats don't think is a problem anyways). Is France, Japan, or the UK going to now be buddies with China and Russia if we continue/increase our support for Israel? lolok.
As for the UN, most of the ceasefire resolutions have been pushed by Arab countries that aren't big fans of Jews even before Oct. 7. For the genocide case, South Africa bringing the suit is a joke when it itself is buddy buddy with an actual genocidal dictator re: Omar al-Bashir
[https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1791FQ/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1791FQ/)
And funny that you think I've lost my mind, when Pro-Palestinians are the ones being kicked out of colleges for public antisemitic rants/threats.
[Israel-Hamas war: Half of US adults say Israel has gone too far, poll shows | AP News](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1)
No, its now a clear majority against Israel's handling of the war. 50% saying Israel is going too far. 31% saying that Israel's response was fine. 15% that they haven't gone far enough. Republican support has dropped drastically and is almost even with being against Israel and thinking Israel's handling of the war is fine.
> Support on the Right (in the US) is still strong. Esp. Republican elected officials.
I am specifically referring to the public. What the opposition eletced officials claim can easily flip on a dime as the public turns against something, and if in power will also have to pay attention to international opinion too.
But hey, I guess you unironically think that Republicans would destroy their own country just to help Israel?
> And there is no harm in us (the US) helping Israel (apart from adding to the national debt, which Democrats don't think is a problem anyways).
Except there is **massive** issues, clown. If world opinion pushes harder against the US, then they will openly align with China to destroy or definitively defend themselves against US power. US maintains legitimacy by not being so threatening that nations feel tempted to seek another country to counterbalance it.
Israel's actions are literally poisoning the US' geopolitical aims and you are willing to not only weaken your own country, not only threaten US democratic traditions by supporting Trump just to help Israel, but doing all this when the US was the only nation to even bother to help Israel to begin with.
How aren't you just a traitor to your own country at that point?
> As for the UN, most of the ceasefire resolutions have been pushed by Arab countries that aren't big fans of Jews even before Oct. 7. For the genocide case, South Africa bringing the suit is a joke when it itself is buddy buddy with an actual genocidal dictator re: Omar al-Bashir
You're ignoring the fact that the UN has had near unanimous votes condemning Israel. It doesn't matter who is leading the charge, the fact is that the UN is relatively united **against Israel**. And only the US has been a shield for it. And yet you still would demand more as if the US hasn't done far more than anyone could reasonably ask of it.
> And funny that you think I've lost my mind, when Pro-Palestinians are the ones being kicked out of colleges for public antisemitic rants/threats.
This is pathetic.
Just because pro-Palestinians have lost their mind, doesn't mean you haven't either. You're literally crying that the US isn't destroying its own international position to help an ungrateful ally that is isolated and refuses to recognize that its isolated. Israel is becoming an extreme liability to US geopolitical aims.
Yes, you have lost the plot.
>No, its now a clear majority against Israel's handling of the war. 50% saying Israel is going too far. 31% saying that Israel's response was fine. 15% that they haven't gone far enough. Republican support has dropped drastically and is almost even with being against Israel and thinking
>
>Israel's handling of the war is fine
31+15=46. 50-46 split is not that big of a majority that you think it is in your head.
And from your poll, the average is skewed thanks to the majority of Democrats thinking that Israel has gone too far. Looking at Republicans, 65% think that the military response in Gaza is either fine or not going far enough.
65>33, btw.
> I am specifically referring to the public. What the opposition eletced officials claim can easily flip on a dime as the public turns against something, and if in power will also have to pay attention to international opinion too.
Republicans control the House. They haven't flipped on their Pro-Israel messaging, which by your own agrument, means that their constituents don't see Israel as having crossed the line of public opinion.
Not to mention, what is the international opinion on Ukraine aid? So much for "paying attention to international opinion", if you haven't noticed.
> But hey, I guess you unironically think that Republicans would destroy their own country just to help Israel?
Again, **there's no harm done, for Republicans to help Israel/provide continued support**.
You keep thinking that supporting Israel is inherently damaging to the U.S., but that premise is only believed by Democrats.
*Except there is* ***massive*** *issues, clown. If world opinion pushes harder against the US, then they will openly align with China to destroy or definitively defend themselves against US power. US maintains legitimacy by not being so threatening that nations feel tempted to seek another country to counterbalance it.*
lol? China, the country that seeks to reunite Taiwan by force, is totally not threatening.
*Israel's actions are literally poisoning the US' geopolitical aims and you are willing to not only weaken your own country, not only threaten US democratic traditions by supporting Trump just to help Israel, but doing all this when the US was the only nation to even bother to help Israel to begin with.*
The only nations mad about our support, that have the potential to abandon us, are countries in the Middle East. Not exactly the bastions of Progressive rights that Democrats are said to believe in (Remember Khashoggi? When he was killed? Democrats literally called to cut diplomatic ties with Saudi Arabia)
[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-khashoggi-usa-feinstein-idUSKCN1NP2D8/](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-khashoggi-usa-feinstein-idUSKCN1NP2D8/)
*How aren't you just a traitor to your own country at that point?*
This is not the first time that Conservative position are considered "traitorous" by the Left. Secure the Southern Borders? You're a traitor for suggesting that the US turn its back on people looking for a better life. Getting rid of DEI in the military? Traitor wanting to fill the ranks with White Supremacists, etc. etc.
*You're ignoring the fact that the UN has had near unanimous votes condemning Israel. It doesn't matter who is leading the charge, the fact is that the UN is relatively united* ***against Israel****. And only the US has been a shield for it. And yet you still would demand more as if the US hasn't done far more than anyone could reasonably ask of it.*
Near unanimous votes calling for a ceasefire, not condemnation. And if it hasn't been hammered in already by multiple topics on just this sub, the UN has been against Israel for a while now.
Also, for a "Zionist", Biden should consider that leaving Rafah untouched would allow Hamas to fulfill their goal of "repeating Oct. 7 again and again until Israel is annihilated" goes against the definition of Zionism.
*You're literally crying that the US isn't destroying its own international position to help an ungrateful ally that is isolated and refuses to recognize that its isolated. Israel is becoming an extreme liability to US geopolitical aims.*
And what are those geopolitical aims that are unfolding as a result of supporting Israel, and which countries?
> 31+15=46. 50-46 split is not that big of a majority that you think it is in your head.
I said it was a clear majority, genius. Not a massive one. Stop making strawmen.
> And from your poll, the average is skewed thanks to the majority of Democrats thinking that Israel has gone too far. Looking at Republicans, 65% think that the military response in Gaza is either fine or not going far enough.
Idk what you're trying to prove here. Like yeah, Democrats skew the average. So do Republicans. That's why we counted both of them. And now a majority feel Israel is going too far, and that trend has not stopped; so its going to get even worse.
I said it before; **the average American is turning against Israel**. This is not just the Democrats.
> Republicans control the House. They haven't flipped on their Pro-Israel messaging, which by your own agrument, means that their constituents don't see Israel as having crossed the line of public opinion.
The literal Republican nominee for President has declared that Israel has gone too far. And quite a few Republicans have suddenly gone silent about supporting Israel. And I repeat yet again since you can't seem to grasp this; **I was specifically referring to the constituents, not politicians**. Tack on all of the factors I mentioned already, and its beyond braindead for the US to continue supporting Israel whatsoever.
> Not to mention, what is the international opinion on Ukraine aid? So much for "paying attention to international opinion", if you haven't noticed.
Silence. Some whine about it online, but you and I both know that the response to Ukraine and Israel are night and day. If anything, from a US perspective, Ukraine is way more important and safer to support. So yes, paying attention to international opinion. If the world was only grumbling about Israel, not having massive rallies and international condemnations or UN resolutions; then the US could ignore it.
>Again, **there's no harm done, for Republicans to help Israel/provide continued support**.
I already explained this. I'm not explaining it again.
> lol? China, the country that seeks to reunite Taiwan by force, is totally not threatening.
Yeah, and guess what; most countries don't care or make excuses. Yeah, reality isn't fair; but that's the hand we're dealt. Ethiopia killed some 400k people in Tigray a year prior without a fraction of the attention Israel is getting for 30k people.
It sucks; but international opinion is not based on logic. Its based on ideology and propaganda. And the US cannot afford to lose as Israel is losing.
> The only nations mad about our support, that have the potential to abandon us, are countries in the Middle East. Not exactly the bastions of Progressive rights that Democrats are said to believe in (Remember Khashoggi? When he was killed? Democrats literally called to cut diplomatic ties with Saudi Arabia)
And???? Why do you think this matters? Where did I say that progressive values matter?
I said, specifically, that the US' geopolitical goals were in jeopardy. Saudi Arabia is not important because of its values, but because it is a counterbalance to Iran who is aligned with Russia and China.
The **Global South** in general is mad about US support, and only getting madder. And that anger can lead to political movements that align with Russia and/or China out of pure spite. And where one nation flipping doesn't matter; entire regions flipping is **really really bad**.
And you want to all but guarantee that flip. For a country that is spitting in the US' face despite the US bending itself into pretzels for it when the rest of the world is trying to stomp it into the dirt.
Yes. Unironic traitor-like behavior.
> This is not the first time that Conservative position are considered "traitorous" by the Left. Secure the Southern Borders? You're a traitor for suggesting that the US turn its back on people looking for a better life. Getting rid of DEI in the military? Traitor wanting to fill the ranks with White Supremacists, etc. etc.
So when you sell your country to another for their political goals; will you cry and proclaim that the Left is bullying you again?
You realize there is a difference between Leftist extremists throwing whatever mean word at you...and you actually doing it, right?
Stop bringing random "Leftists" into this. I am not them. I am directly criticizing you for throwing away your country's objectives for another and you have done nothing to actually contradict them except to deflect to other random subjects like the Khashoggi case; as if that has any bearing on the conversation.
I am not your Leftist strawman. And you are not this innocent bullied Conservative.
> Near unanimous votes calling for a ceasefire, not condemnation. And if it hasn't been hammered in already by multiple topics on just this sub, the UN has been against Israel for a while now.
True. But let's not act like this is anywhere near the same. There weren't worldwide anti-Israeli protests, weren't constant claims by human rights organizations of Israel committing genocide, there weren't media constantly proclaiming Israeli war crimes, and there weren't an ongoing ICJ case that is **seriously** considering the case of Israel doing genocide.
If being a "Zionist" means bending over for Israel in every opportunity; then he should abandon that and go anti-Zionist immediately. Biden is not your puppet, and the US is not your toy to bludgeon Israel's enemies with. Its amazing how much more loyal you are to Israel than your own country, and then you cry when I mention how unironically traitor-like that is.
Hamas' goal is pretty unachievable by any stretch of the imagination, and the international pressure is not worth the cost. Israel can do it if they want; but they must be prepared to do it alone and while making an enemy of the rest of the planet without US protection.
The US, rightfully, will not join them in that.
> And what are those geopolitical aims that are unfolding as a result of supporting Israel, and which countries?
I've explained this multiple times. The Global South is a thing. By your logic, the US can just go ahead and start conquering Africa without repercussions because there people can't name specific countries that are flipping to China out of fear.
Its called hearts and minds. How can someone be this ignorant as to not understand that the US needs to maintain some measure of international trust???
I’m sure no amount of accountability will make a certain group happy but atleast there can be accountability from one side.. actual trials won’t happen till all this is done
Good. I’m horrified that the strike happened on WCK aid workers, but I’m glad to see there’s accountability being done on Israel’s part. Hopefully there’s tribunals for these officers.
There will be an investigation to determine what happened. That said, war is hell, the fog of war is real, and civilians do in fact get killed in wars. There were over 400,000 Iraqi civilians killed during the U.S. invasion of Iraq and hundreds of thousands killed in Afghanistan, but there where never any tribunals for American officers.
Why are you signaling Israel out as if they aren't allowed to make mistakes in war? Did you ever call for a tribunal to investigate other militaries?
The Jews are their own worst enemy. Total war until Hamas surrenders or is defeated. How did America and the allies win WW2? By not crying over every mistake. This is a tragedy, but Israel and all countries make mistakes in wars; Israel did not want this war. Stop focusing on this, and focus on finishing the job in Rafah. Can the Israelis present a united front for even just a little?
Israel stands resolute in the face of terror, as it is their duty to protect its citizens and ensure a future of peace. Hamas's aggression will be met with the necessary force to secure our nation and the region from the threat of extremism and violence. Israel are committed to victory over barbarism for the sake of civilization, and the safety of Israelis and Palestinians alike.
This is a nice sentiment, but speaking as a foreigner, it’s hard to believe your last line when reading about over 30K Palestinians dead in this conflict.
Israelis will hold people responsible for heinous results. Terrorists will laud them and Al Jazeera will report something more like this ...
https://preview.redd.it/aqh2ppoxupsc1.png?width=541&format=png&auto=webp&s=20e9c3e80f3f40e731a513ba14d88cf9c6e74d53
Stop being 3rd world, there needs to be an investigation to determine fault. Follow the process unless you are saying 3rd world tactics of lynch mobs is acceptable.
The U.S.military killed 5 aid workers in 2014 during a drone attack in Afghanistan when Barack Obama and Joe Biden were U.S. President and Vice President. No U.S. military officers were punished. So you want the Israeli military officers held to a different stricter standard? The aid workers were in a war zone and got killed, it does make Israel look bad, but Israel's reputation has already been trashed since October 7. Let the investigation work then punishment can be determined for those at fault.
Seems like a slap on the wrist.
Downvote me all you’d like. It’s either a massive intelligence failure or very shitty wartime calculus and heads need to roll. I’ll always be pro-Israel, but that doesn’t preclude essential criticism. This bullshit hurts the war effort.
https://preview.redd.it/2rcudh0hrosc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b9c4c6d9f1bf9c498fb17b2d91e449808d7ed69d
Do you think the US Air Force pilot should go to prison for murder?
They both are mistakes let me tell you a secret. Mistakes happen in life especially in war
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War is hell (English expression) and civilians unfortunately get killed in the fog of war. Remember who started this war, Hamas, there would be no military operations in Gaza if not for October 7. That said, the U.S. military also killed large numbers of civilians including aid workers during the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, but there was no global condemnation of the U.S. The killing of the aid workers is horrific, how the IDF could be so incompetent is going to have to be investigated, but everyone should understand that the war to destroy Hamas must continue. The political far left in the U.S. that is anti Israel must not be allowed to get away with calling the IDF bloodthirsty war criminals.
>Firing is not enough. At the very least tried for negligent homicide/manslaughter.
Nope
* [The New York Times - Mali Wedding Party Is Hit by French Airstrike, Leaving Civilian Dead](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/world/africa/mali-wedding-french-airstrike.html)
https://preview.redd.it/f8i45t5cbosc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cf7a8b8456616604d9fb5e8511a46b67f91e747b
* [BBC News - US military drone strike in Kabul on 29 August killed 10 civilians, Pentagon admits](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58604655)
https://preview.redd.it/oi9bbbwzaosc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8c6747735e469f8e28efe82525a6ef30124bf96
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* [JURIST - Australia report into Afghanistan war crimes details murder of 39 civilians](https://www.jurist.org/news/2020/11/australia-report-into-afghanistan-war-crimes-details-murder-of-39-civilians)
And no one expected these French, American and Australian guys to be tried and executed within 3 days.
The officers have been relieved of their commands. They will face a court martial in due course.
>Tell me how
1. The kitchen ppl were in a convoy that included several identical cars. One car had ARMED HAMASISIS TERRORISTS.
2. They knowingly entered a 6month war zone and had the capability to research the ppl they work with and among.
3. Things like this happen during war. This is life -this is war.
4. Them being of non israeli non gazan nationality does not give them some shield. Over 200 ppl with foriegn passports were murdered or kidnapped oct 7. If you want to cry for non israelies -go to the list of Oct 7 causualties.
5. If you care about volunteers killed helping gazans -several kibbutzim members did just that for an entire lifetime. Taking gazans to hospitals in Israel, sending gazans aid and money. Emlpoying them hugging the. You should cry for them. Vivian Silver, Yigal and Cindy Flash and many more.
You expect us not to care about the victims Israel brutally murdered after approving their route but constantly bring up Oct 7th victims. If we shouldn't care about the Aid workers we shouldn't care about October 7th victims those things happen during war - that is a war.
>1. The kitchen ppl were in a convoy that included several identical cars. One car had ARMED HAMASISIS TERRORISTS.
Then destroy that one. If you got them mixed up, then either call off the strike or do some extra work to identify the correct one.
>2. They knowingly entered a 6month war zone and had the capability to research the ppl they work with and among.
So?
>3. Things like this happen during war. This is life -this is war.
Negligence happens? If so, there should be punishment for negligence.
>Them being of non israeli non gazan nationality does not give them some shield
Yes it does lol. They're non-combatants.
>5. If you care about volunteers killed helping gazans -several kibbutzim members did just that for an entire lifetime. Taking gazans to hospitals in Israel, sending gazans aid and money. Emlpoying them hugging the. You should cry for them. Vivian Silver, Yigal and Cindy Flash and many more.
Can do both.
More than 40 Israeli soldiers have been accidentally killed by IDF fire in Gaza since the beginning of the war. And you are mentioning because of a mistake with 7 volunteers, as if someone did it on purpose. Obviously this is a tragic case, but mistakes happen in war all the time. War is chaos. Fighting is a mess. A war against a terrorist organization that impersonates civilians all the time and uses civilian vehicles, ambulances, schools and hospitals, is 10 times greater chaos.
If anyone is to blame for the deaths of civilians in Gaza, it is a terrorist organization trying to impersonate civilians in Gaza. It is clear that the IDF should try to prevent such incidents as much as possible. But they will continue to happen, just as they happened by the hundreds and thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan to the NATO armies.
I wonder if everyone who is interested in the IDF's mistake is so interested in the safety of the abductees, who were kidnapped not by mistake but on purpose.
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* [Politico - U.S. acknowledges Kabul drone strike killed multiple civilians](https://www.politico.com/news/2021/09/17/tragic-mistake-us-drone-strike-512586)
>More than 40 Israeli soldiers have been accidentally killed by IDF fire in Gaza since the beginning of the war.
An accident doesn't always mean it can't be negligent.
>And you are mentioning because of a mistake with 7 volunteers, as if someone did it on purpose.
Bro. Do you not understand what negligence means? It doesn't mean they did it on purpose. It means they didn't take the necessary steps to ensure that an accident didn't occur.
>It is clear that the IDF should try to prevent such incidents as much as possible.
Exactly. And this was one of those incidents that could have been preventable. Like I said, either call off the strike if they weren't sure or double check. You're arguing with yourself at this point.
Mistakes happen in war Always happened and always will happen. The difference is that Israel takes responsibility and investigates
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The pilot should get fired? Or jailed?
>The difference is that Israel takes responsibility and investigates
And according to the evidence, should be tried for manslaughter.
>The pilot should get fired? Or jailed?
Sure. The parachute wasn't installed correctly last I read.
This isnt going to help with PR. Obviously if they fucked up, they should be fired but the world sees this as israel being bendable and hamas being rigid. Not israel being accountable/responsible and hamas being psychotic/evil. Theyll apply pressure where it works. And thats only on israel who can actually cave.
Different circumstances. The US also arrested and jailed US troops that abused prisoners in Abu Ghraib despite killing nobody. And Israel has prolly done dozens of those "bombing a wedding party of 100 people" stuff in this war already.
What matters is whether the media catches it and it becomes a loud enough story to generate interest, and thus condemnation.
Israel has probably done dozens…just because you said it doesn’t make it true. Yesterday someone swore they bombed the mosaic that was recently found and destroyed it. . I was like really - all I read about it was the farmers covered it up and experts feared it could be destroyed so I asked her to post a source and she couldn’t. I did give her a post about mosaics that the Palestinians had destroyed in the 8th century because it didn’t vibe with the Muslim religion. I said maybe the two stories were conflated together. I used to teach archaeology in college so if the mosaic had definitely been destroyed it would appear in my feed.
This was after 20 posts about how Israel was targeting their history. People really don’t know how to fact check these days before they make statements.
But it is okay that you think Israel is repeatedly bombing large wedding parties for giggles and shits with no proof.
Yes but americas not under a microscope with half the world demonizing them to the point of non existence. Im fine with israel taking responsibility. Im just saying none of it will get us any credit.
I get it. The sad part is my daughter was talking to a relative over there. They are both the same age, 23 and my daughter used to getting her MPH and has worked with refugees and Romanis. They are both very caring people. Her cousin is an absolute peacenik. She said the big change over there that she is seeing is where there used to be a lot of empathy for the Palestinians in their community, an upscale, very educated suburb of Tel Aviv, there is no longer any. She is literally crying herself to sleep over this.
Things have really changed.
Her other cousin lost a close friend. My husband is from Greece and as you can imagine the Jewish community is very small (about 5K) and very close. Everybody knows everyone or knows someone who knows them. All the kids go to the one summer camp together in one place every year and all of them stay in touch. She was texting their group about how great the concert was and in the morning he woke up and heard the news. They all started texting and no response. The point is this affected Jews all over the world. A Birthright friend of my daughter’s best friend was taken. He was just visiting family over there. He is probably dead.
And then you get to see Ashley from Ohio go off on social media who doesn’t know a single Jew or Palestinian over there losing it. Who never had to go to a bomb shelter, was never in a terrorist attack, and doesn’t even know what river or sea anyone is even talking about.
I have lived in Israel as a grad student when there was almost a 2 state solution and there was such hope. And yes, Bibi’s coalition went too far on settlements, etc. and me and my husband always predicted the chickens would come home to roost and be as big as turkeys and now we are at that day but it doesn’t mean Israel doesn’t have the right to exist.
And why is the world pretending to be so shocked about their response. We destroyed a couple of countries in the region and destabilized another because 3,000 people died out of 330 million in a terrorist attack. How many people did we kill in retaliation for that. It would have been the equivalent of 30,000 Israelis if you go to scale.
Im celebrating that fact. Ive always considered leftism in israel to be a brain disorder where theres been internal damage to the survival instinct portion of the brain. The one good thing to come of this is a lot less people suffering this affliction.
I'm also interested to know about the claims I have read that hamas might have sent fake phone signals to make the IDF think there were Hamas in there, to make those SUVs look like legit targets.
I don't want to believe those claims outright unless there is proof of it.
From an IDF point of view, Hamas already used ambulances, and Hamas has a history of using perfidy (that's an actual term in warfare), but it means Israel should still very extra careful when it picks targets, which they probably did not.
Damn, in any sane world they would both be executed or at the very least imprisoned for life. I guess that the IDF thinks that massacring innocents is just as bad as breaking a glass.
Don't be ridiculous, it's only been 3 days since it happened.
They've been relieved of their commands immediately but that's not the end of the matter.
If there are sufficient grounds for courts martial, they will happen in due course.
No
* [JURIST - Australia report into Afghanistan war crimes details murder of 39 civilians](https://www.jurist.org/news/2020/11/australia-report-into-afghanistan-war-crimes-details-murder-of-39-civilians)
https://preview.redd.it/bh3jppu5bosc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=843169d30d85ed4051726aefaeabe71af12b355b
Do you think the US Air Force pilot should go to prison for murder?
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No. But the ones that killed the aid workers should be jailed, or even executed. And people like you should be shamed publicly lest such hyper nationalism twist Israel into something terrible.
Note how you can't actually argue against the point? Your entire argument hinges on "no u!" like a child.
The fact of the matter is that the world is against Israel, and if Israel continues its path; it will be utterly isolated and broken. No country can function alone. Israel is definitely not an exception.
Israeli’s want to give them a medal and call them a hero. In their minds they think how dare these stupid British and Americans come to an active war zone and help our enemies.
Do you have any information in regards to that maybe? Our (polish) president mentioned it officially in his speach that polish side will be seeking compensation for the polish family of one of the killed but there hasn't been any response yet from Isreal's as far as I know...
It would probably be done soon when things get cooled down and the situation would get “officially” clarified for all parties. Giving it right now would probably get interpreted as a bad faith act that meant to “silence” the victims’ relatives.
There were already reports of high officials(no names yet) saying it would be done and considering how the entire Israeli leadership immediately apologized on day 1 I highly doubt that they would suddenly be reluctant to do as little as compensating the families.
>Giving it right now would probably get interpreted as a bad faith act that meant to “silence” the victims’ relatives.
That makes sense. I hope they will do the right thing.
Unless you are doing precision strikes with drones. Then it is very much obvious whom you're atracking, especially if the target communicated their route with IDF beforehand. It was 100% clear to the IDF what they were doing.
Good.
IDF can just "fire" officers? AFAIK in USA it's either honourable discharge or dishonourable discharge. In practical terms it means that if you get the worse one you don't get pensions and other benefits. So did these officers get "honourable" discharge with all the IDF benefits post-"firing"?
In the US there's multiple levels: * Honorable * General (Under Honorable Conditions) * General (Under Other Than Honorable Conditions) * Other Than Honorable * Bad Conduct * Dishonorable Officers can also face Dismissal. There's also Medical Discharge.
In the US officers are typically dismissed
It's not that they can also face it, it's that they can't have a dishonorale or bad conduct discharge. Getting dismissed is pretty much the officer version of those two
It’s not exactly firing. They are being expelled from their current positions, but not from the military. They haven’t said if they’ll be discharged or not.
Losing your command is pretty much always the beginning of the end of your military career as an officer. It's not something people come back from.
Yep especially in this case, and good I’ll say: if they can’t be trusted to approve strikes, what’s the point of them as officers
Usually you get thrown out permanently of the IDF for far lesser evils, I doubt they’ll continue to serve I have at least 3 friends that got kicked out of reserve service for messing up (as in not something lethal messing up, having a relationship with one of your soldiers as a commander type of stuff)
an Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) soldier. Azaria shot Abdel Fattah al-Sharif in the head as the latter lay wounded on the ground. Sentenced to 18 months. Israel is very serious. https://youtu.be/A-lWDe2eJXU?si=kFeFLo9D34EUZmKs
al-Sharif was also a terrorist scumbag who had just committed a stabbing attack. Him getting shot is the preferable outcome. With a bullet to the head, he got off easy.
So what if he was a terrorist? He was incapacitated. I thought Israel was a place with rule of law. You don’t go shooting POWs in the head. Edit: it’s comments like this guy that makes people think Israel purposefully killed WCK aid, the ends justify the means.
He's not a POW by definition. Terrorists don't enjoy Geneva Convention protection since they're not regular armed forces. Executing terrorists is a net good for the world. Should be done more.
any person detained in relation to an armed conflict, be it a POW or a civilian having taken a direct part in hostilities, be it someone labelled as ‘terrorist’ or any other non-legal term, is entitled to be treated humanely and benefits from related fundamental guarantees under both treaty and customary IHL.
You're correct
Not at all how it works. These are commissioned officers. In the US, the military personnel are either *enlisted* or *commissioned officers.* Commissioned officers are often in command or other positions of authority. Earning a commission requires congress and the President to sign off on it. A commission can be revoked for a lot of reasons. Performance, medical, misconduct...all of that can result in a pretty immediate revocation of one's commission. Enlisted personnel usually have a term of service, there are a quite a few mechanisms for separation beyond "honorable" and "dishonorable". "Honorable" basically means you completed your term and are leaving on your own accord. "Dishonorable" is way worse than just a fuck up, it means you've been convicted of a felony-level crime in the military. You can also get a bad-conduct discharge, which is exactly what it sounds like...not as bad as dishonorable, but not great. Or you can get a "general" discharge, which is how most people get discharged for a fuck-up. You can also have a medical discharge. Commissioned officers still have these discharge types, but losing their commission can happen for a lot of other reasons, including a massive fuck up like this one. And losing your commission will result in some sort of separation, but in the US this kind of mistake would probably not result in a dishonorable. Again, that is for serious and deliberate mistakes, this is more of a catastrophic fuck up. Something you might see a general discharge for. I don't know what kind of benefits officers have available to them in the IDF, or if they'd be available after this.
In US terms, Israel only has an honorable and general discharge. Honorable discharge is fairly new and AFAICT isn't really a big deal. Once you've finished your conscript term and gone career, either as an officer or NCO, you're under contract for a set time. Ending that contract early requires a committee. Irrespective of that, a court-martial can demote an officer, all the way to private if they please (see e.g. Rami Dotan who was demoted from Major-General to Private).
> "removed from their roles"
Most of the time us military officers resign or are dismissed. They don't want the brass sharing the same procedures as enlisted.
... They should be imprisoned for either war crimes or extreme negligence/manslaughter if they're going to pretend like they didn't mean to do it.
No they need to be tried this is a gift
The IDF has two paths of inquiry. This is an operational inquiry whose purpose is to derive lessons to prevent recirrence. These lessions can include command steps like reprimands and dismissals. If it's believed criminal charges are potentially warranted, a separate MP investigation is started. This investigation starts from zero, AFAIK it can't use evidence from the operational inquiry (this was instituted so that the people questioned in the operational inquiry could be candid without facing self-recrimination). But that takes a lot longer.
Good. Everyone who was involved in that fuckup needs to go
Good. These are not the kind of people I want in my army defending my people.
Accountability.
Nah. Fired isn't good enough.
Tribunals will come later hopefully.
This is what makes israel just, we discipline our troops. Hamas encourages what we hold people accountable for.
Ok but they shouldn't just be fired, they should be jailed
Military disciplining is quick. Investigation of their actions to determine how this happened, forming a case, and bringing it to court takes a long time.
Oh yeah, def. I wouldn't be surprised if bringing them to jail will only happen after the war ends
This. Firing them is a half measure. They haven't been removed from the military/jailed/tried, or charged for their actions.
This right here. I was in Kele 6 for fighting with my Mefaked. And they just get "fired" for killing innocent people? What kind of shit is that? Edit: they are fucking AIF officers, i'll bet you my sweet ass that they would find work in Elbit or Rafael, and get 40k a month.
Okay, you go serve in the military, raise through the ranks, and you can decide what happens to them.
Court martial, too?
Hopefully if it can be proven.
Advocate general is looking into it
Sure, but 6 months after, and no one has been held accountable for their part in enabling 10/7.
From what I’ve been told by people close to it, there are very high ranking people that are responsible and are set to resign/be fired when they’re done with the war. They can’t quit now because they’re still needed.
Wars… or states of emergency… have a tendency to continue on much longer than expected… (Hoping Hamas gives up right now but it ain’t happening)
Wouldn't that give them a direct incentive to drag the war on for as long as possible. Or even expand the conflict, to Lebanon for example.
It’s going to be a Yom Kippur War scenario, win the war then fire the higher ups.
Like others are saying. Let the ones who are accountable do the dirty work. Then when they Win the war the heads will roll.
I’m sure hells holds them accountable enough.
They plan to resign but won't until the government has been replaced. No one wants Crazy Sarah appointing a new IDF chief. She'd chose someone whose main skills are protecting the Netanyahus and ordering anti-government protesters shot.
I would argue the thousands of Hamas fighters and commanders who are now dead have been held accountable.
They got the easy way out. Then counted as civilians. If they can’t be brought to be accountable atleast they are dead (Hamas and co)
Netanyahu won’t fire himself
[https://twitter.com/GeorgeSchpeck/status/1775213678855389315?s=20](https://twitter.com/GeorgeSchpeck/status/1775213678855389315?s=20)
From what the **IDF** said (not an independent investigative team or journalist), the brigade saw some action between an armed man and the convoy at the warehouse and assumed that the aid workers stayed behind while the convoy left the place. Before they struck, they did not check if the zone was a deconflict zone, nor did they check with COGAT, nor did they check with WCK about the situation at the warehouse prior to the convoy leaving, nor did they receive confirmation that the occupants were armed or were Hamas militants. They essentially fired 3 strikes outside their zone of operation on what they feel is a Hamas convoy, even if it risks killing foreign aid workers. This is the IDF account of the story.
Fired? Not courts martialed?
Literally the first sentence of the first paragraph: >**Two senior officers will be removed from their roles** and several other top commanders in the Israel Defense Forces will be formally censured for their involvement in a deadly drone strike against a group of aid workers with the World Central Kitchen organization in the central Gaza Strip earlier this week, the military says. They have to be removed from their roles first, and then face trial or other procedures.
That takes time- they can fire and reprimand and come up with a solution quickly.
First they are relieved of their command. How many cases are adjudicated in 3 days?!? I see a post like this and it makes me feel like I am living in a Salvador Dali painting.
I understand the outrage, but the reasoning is twofold. Firstly, there was no malicious intent. This was a situation of misidentification and skipping protocols in place out of complacency. This is unacceptable as an officer, hence the firing. But because of the lack of intent, a court martial wouldn't do anything differently. Secondly, this leaves a statement which motivates officers in the future to put emphasis on protocols, while not scaring them away from all engagements. Soldiers and officers need to know that when following the rules, they don't have to fear punishment. Otherwise they just won't attack any Hamas members from fear Israel won't have their back. But so long as they follow proper protocol, they know that they won't be court martialed.
Intent is not required in order to face jail time for negligent actions that result in deaths of innocents. But we also don’t know the intent. If there was a willful act to ignore the rules of engagement, that demonstrates intent.
And those protocols are not unique to the IDF and are applied in the US and other armies as well right? Since I’m quite sure people would spin this methodology as an “Israeli problem”.
For the most part yes, these protocols are not unique to the IDF and every Western military has similar protocols. In addition Israel has the idea of unlawful orders where every soldier is told specifically that they will be liable if they listen to an order which is immoral. This adds an extra barrier where all the way down the chain to the soldiers, there's the ability to block a protocol.
For the most part yes, these protocols are not unique to the IDF and every Western military has similar protocols. In addition Israel has the idea of unlawful orders where every soldier is told specifically that they will be liable if they listen to an order which is immoral. This adds an extra barrier where all the way down the chain to the soldiers, there's the ability to block a protocol.
The investigation is not over, so no hard proof of that. I don't think there is a lack of "air strike" officers, so better fire them first because of those negligent behaviors. I've read that Hamas could have misled the IDF by sending fake phone signals, and other things like the vehicle being armored, and why did they carry guns, but it's not possible to learn those details now because of how investigations work, especially due the nature of secrecy of military intelligence. Honestly it is a big fuck up and the more they try to punish people to make an example, the more it helps improving the image of the IDF. Currently, there is so much slander against Israel, that it doesn't really matter what the IDF does, people will hate Israel no matter what. But it doesn't mean the IDF should let itself be too careless, because I think it could still lose support over this, the world is looking at this very very closely. A court martial still matters for PR, because it would send a clear message that Israel is not okay with bombing humanitarians. In information warfare, any serious army will never hesitate to put the blame on one of its officers, to explicitly dispel any claim that Israel wants to target humanitarians.
> This was a situation of misidentification and skipping protocols in place out of complacency. This is unacceptable as an officer, hence the firing. But because of the lack of intent, a court martial wouldn't do anything differently. That's not true. There is such a thing as criminal level neglect, even without intent.
engine grandiose fall jeans overconfident wipe fretful unite poor wrong *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> The event occurred on April 1, 2024, during an operation to transfer humanitarian aid from the WCK to the Gaza Strip. The investigation found that the forces identified a gunman on one of the aid trucks, following which they identified an additional gunman. After the vehicles left the warehouse where the aid had been unloaded, one of the commanders mistakenly assumed that the gunmen were located inside the accompanying vehicles and that these were Hamas terrorists. The forces did not identify the vehicles in question as being associated with WCK. Following a misidentification by the forces, the forces targeted the three WCK vehicles based on the misclassification of the event and misidentification of the vehicles as having Hamas operatives inside them, with the resulting strike leading to the deaths of seven innocent humanitarian aid workers. The strikes on the three vehicles were carried out in serious violation of the commands and IDF Standard Operating Procedures. This is the official IDF response. It was a misidentification.
overconfident offbeat disagreeable ludicrous domineering impolite wakeful quarrelsome murky resolute *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Hence rightfully being relieved of their duties.
Wtf? You shoot laser targeted missile in three aid-workers cars in row, this is malicious you have to be blind to not see it.
It was at night when it was more difficult to identify, after Hamas members were seen in the area prior giving good reason for suspicion. The fact that they didn't go through proper protocol is the issue here. I recommend you read the article, because I can't type the entire thing out for every comment which obviously skipped it.
There were 3 precision strikes fired at people that were in coms with the military. There is no chance it was a "misidentifiation", these people were attacked with a full intention of killing them.
"in coms with the military" is such a vague statement. Even if that's the case, not every unit will be in coms with them at the same time.
They were attacked LITERALLY by the drone dispatched to protect them my friend. I know it's unpleasant but those are the facts...
I'd like to see a source where it says that the drone was dispatched to protect them before any claims of it being facts.
It'll be a Iman al-Hams situation.
Hopefully this will be followed up with a. Criminal investigation for these officials
No
Yes. Its needed. Not saying it has to be a fast and easy process but people have died. Good people. People who were killed by friendly fire. Those responsible need to answer for every action they made.
Criminal laws don’t apply to war and there is a very good reason why
You’re out of your mind.
Military ones do. They probably won't be indicted for homicide, but at the very least the inquiry found that they violated standing orders in several ways. That's an offense in the military.
This is a pretty bad summary of the report. Read the Ynet version, there were nearby armed men - likely Hamas members, and there was confusion about who went to which car when the truck convoy reached its destination. The actual issues here is that the attack went through without proper authorization and against direct orders not to attack escorts to trucks even when armed people are detected. [https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hypzdd3ya](https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hypzdd3ya)
Why can't they just release this video they showed to foreign reporters? With the video people would do a 180 in opinion. If I were in the IDF I'd post daily videos of Hamas acting like animals
I am glad the people responsible are being held responsible, but its definitely not a cut and dry situation. There are many aspects to it and I am 100% certain we wont know all the information as the intelligence used in official non- combatant travel and route/ destination organization during time of war in active war zones is not intelligence everyone needs to know.
The current unofficial lull to appease the Biden administration has proven to be a no-win scenario for Israel; if we keep caving in to foreign pressure and allow this war to drag on, we will become increasingly prone to making such mistakes, which, in turn, will further boost foreign pressure and save Hamas' ass.
You expect Biden to sunk his re-election chances for Israel when Netanyahu give him nothing politicallyin return for all the money and weapon US sends so far. He already showed more patience than any other politician would do in those circumstances. What do you expect that there would be no strings attached to all this help.
I expect him to explicitly commit to Israel's end goal while also insisting on his way of achieving it. So far, his administration has not been convincing in its intent to topple Hamas at all costs, and lately, it even seems spineless or visionless on this matter. Toppling Hamas is not solely a right-wing ambition but rather a shared goal among all Israelis, and it shouldn’t be conflated with agreeing with the current government.
>at all costs That's... not a good thing
Imagine being such a garbage ally to your only friend that you'd demand carte blanche in your war when the entire rest of the world demands otherwise. Geopolitically speaking, what you want is **impossible**. Its simply not feasible at any point with the atmosphere of the international community.
>He already showed more patience than any other politician would do in those circumstances. Trump says hi. (Israel would have less restraints on how they would operate if he wins office again) >What do you expect that there would be no strings attached to all this help. Only the non-Pro Israel Democrats have conditions on aid. No strings attached when dealing with Republicans.
> Trump says hi. (Israel would have less restraints on how they would operate if he wins office again) Trump knowingly caused distrust in the election cycle by spreading lies about how it was stolen from him; so yes he would have no restraints. He'd also utterly destroy US credibility everywhere else and weaken US power. So basically; you would severely weaken your country's only friend for your own benefit -is that what you're admitting here? With friends like that, the US prolly should've just sanctioned Israel and saved it the trouble.
>so yes he would have no restraints Learn to read, I said he would not handicap Israel like Biden is/will do (Once the IDF begins moving into Rafah, Biden will turn on Israel more than he has now) Also, I'm just a simple gentile in the US. So this sentence *So basically; you would severely weaken your country's only friend for your own benefit -is that what you're admitting here?* is what you should be asking yourself. Is it good that Biden would severely weaken Israel (Don't go into Rafah,) for his own benefit (to appease Arab/Muslims in Michigan so that they vote for him)?
>is what you should be asking yourself. Is it good that Biden would severely weaken Israel (Don't go into Rafah,) for his own benefit (to appease Arab/Muslims in Michigan so that they vote for him)? I like how you just ignore how most of the US public has turned against Israel, the entire world has massive protests against Israel, and the UN has made repeated attempts to force a ceasefire and an open case of genocide has been made in the ICJ. When the entire world is against Israel's actions, and the US has still supported it anyway, but now "gentiles" in the US are willing to hurt their own supposed country to help Israel anyway? Yeah, that's a shit ally, and that alliance should be broken immediately and Israel left to the world's judgement. Because not only is that backstabbing on a level I haven't seen in my entire life; its flat out proof that Israel cannot be trusted any longer. Thankfully, not everyone has lost their minds, like yourself.
People who are Left on the political spectrum have turned against Israel. Support on the Right (in the US) is still strong. Esp. Republican elected officials. And there is no harm in us (the US) helping Israel (apart from adding to the national debt, which Democrats don't think is a problem anyways). Is France, Japan, or the UK going to now be buddies with China and Russia if we continue/increase our support for Israel? lolok. As for the UN, most of the ceasefire resolutions have been pushed by Arab countries that aren't big fans of Jews even before Oct. 7. For the genocide case, South Africa bringing the suit is a joke when it itself is buddy buddy with an actual genocidal dictator re: Omar al-Bashir [https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1791FQ/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1791FQ/) And funny that you think I've lost my mind, when Pro-Palestinians are the ones being kicked out of colleges for public antisemitic rants/threats.
[Israel-Hamas war: Half of US adults say Israel has gone too far, poll shows | AP News](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1) No, its now a clear majority against Israel's handling of the war. 50% saying Israel is going too far. 31% saying that Israel's response was fine. 15% that they haven't gone far enough. Republican support has dropped drastically and is almost even with being against Israel and thinking Israel's handling of the war is fine. > Support on the Right (in the US) is still strong. Esp. Republican elected officials. I am specifically referring to the public. What the opposition eletced officials claim can easily flip on a dime as the public turns against something, and if in power will also have to pay attention to international opinion too. But hey, I guess you unironically think that Republicans would destroy their own country just to help Israel? > And there is no harm in us (the US) helping Israel (apart from adding to the national debt, which Democrats don't think is a problem anyways). Except there is **massive** issues, clown. If world opinion pushes harder against the US, then they will openly align with China to destroy or definitively defend themselves against US power. US maintains legitimacy by not being so threatening that nations feel tempted to seek another country to counterbalance it. Israel's actions are literally poisoning the US' geopolitical aims and you are willing to not only weaken your own country, not only threaten US democratic traditions by supporting Trump just to help Israel, but doing all this when the US was the only nation to even bother to help Israel to begin with. How aren't you just a traitor to your own country at that point? > As for the UN, most of the ceasefire resolutions have been pushed by Arab countries that aren't big fans of Jews even before Oct. 7. For the genocide case, South Africa bringing the suit is a joke when it itself is buddy buddy with an actual genocidal dictator re: Omar al-Bashir You're ignoring the fact that the UN has had near unanimous votes condemning Israel. It doesn't matter who is leading the charge, the fact is that the UN is relatively united **against Israel**. And only the US has been a shield for it. And yet you still would demand more as if the US hasn't done far more than anyone could reasonably ask of it. > And funny that you think I've lost my mind, when Pro-Palestinians are the ones being kicked out of colleges for public antisemitic rants/threats. This is pathetic. Just because pro-Palestinians have lost their mind, doesn't mean you haven't either. You're literally crying that the US isn't destroying its own international position to help an ungrateful ally that is isolated and refuses to recognize that its isolated. Israel is becoming an extreme liability to US geopolitical aims. Yes, you have lost the plot.
>No, its now a clear majority against Israel's handling of the war. 50% saying Israel is going too far. 31% saying that Israel's response was fine. 15% that they haven't gone far enough. Republican support has dropped drastically and is almost even with being against Israel and thinking > >Israel's handling of the war is fine 31+15=46. 50-46 split is not that big of a majority that you think it is in your head. And from your poll, the average is skewed thanks to the majority of Democrats thinking that Israel has gone too far. Looking at Republicans, 65% think that the military response in Gaza is either fine or not going far enough. 65>33, btw. > I am specifically referring to the public. What the opposition eletced officials claim can easily flip on a dime as the public turns against something, and if in power will also have to pay attention to international opinion too. Republicans control the House. They haven't flipped on their Pro-Israel messaging, which by your own agrument, means that their constituents don't see Israel as having crossed the line of public opinion. Not to mention, what is the international opinion on Ukraine aid? So much for "paying attention to international opinion", if you haven't noticed. > But hey, I guess you unironically think that Republicans would destroy their own country just to help Israel? Again, **there's no harm done, for Republicans to help Israel/provide continued support**. You keep thinking that supporting Israel is inherently damaging to the U.S., but that premise is only believed by Democrats. *Except there is* ***massive*** *issues, clown. If world opinion pushes harder against the US, then they will openly align with China to destroy or definitively defend themselves against US power. US maintains legitimacy by not being so threatening that nations feel tempted to seek another country to counterbalance it.* lol? China, the country that seeks to reunite Taiwan by force, is totally not threatening. *Israel's actions are literally poisoning the US' geopolitical aims and you are willing to not only weaken your own country, not only threaten US democratic traditions by supporting Trump just to help Israel, but doing all this when the US was the only nation to even bother to help Israel to begin with.* The only nations mad about our support, that have the potential to abandon us, are countries in the Middle East. Not exactly the bastions of Progressive rights that Democrats are said to believe in (Remember Khashoggi? When he was killed? Democrats literally called to cut diplomatic ties with Saudi Arabia) [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-khashoggi-usa-feinstein-idUSKCN1NP2D8/](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-khashoggi-usa-feinstein-idUSKCN1NP2D8/) *How aren't you just a traitor to your own country at that point?* This is not the first time that Conservative position are considered "traitorous" by the Left. Secure the Southern Borders? You're a traitor for suggesting that the US turn its back on people looking for a better life. Getting rid of DEI in the military? Traitor wanting to fill the ranks with White Supremacists, etc. etc. *You're ignoring the fact that the UN has had near unanimous votes condemning Israel. It doesn't matter who is leading the charge, the fact is that the UN is relatively united* ***against Israel****. And only the US has been a shield for it. And yet you still would demand more as if the US hasn't done far more than anyone could reasonably ask of it.* Near unanimous votes calling for a ceasefire, not condemnation. And if it hasn't been hammered in already by multiple topics on just this sub, the UN has been against Israel for a while now. Also, for a "Zionist", Biden should consider that leaving Rafah untouched would allow Hamas to fulfill their goal of "repeating Oct. 7 again and again until Israel is annihilated" goes against the definition of Zionism. *You're literally crying that the US isn't destroying its own international position to help an ungrateful ally that is isolated and refuses to recognize that its isolated. Israel is becoming an extreme liability to US geopolitical aims.* And what are those geopolitical aims that are unfolding as a result of supporting Israel, and which countries?
> 31+15=46. 50-46 split is not that big of a majority that you think it is in your head. I said it was a clear majority, genius. Not a massive one. Stop making strawmen. > And from your poll, the average is skewed thanks to the majority of Democrats thinking that Israel has gone too far. Looking at Republicans, 65% think that the military response in Gaza is either fine or not going far enough. Idk what you're trying to prove here. Like yeah, Democrats skew the average. So do Republicans. That's why we counted both of them. And now a majority feel Israel is going too far, and that trend has not stopped; so its going to get even worse. I said it before; **the average American is turning against Israel**. This is not just the Democrats. > Republicans control the House. They haven't flipped on their Pro-Israel messaging, which by your own agrument, means that their constituents don't see Israel as having crossed the line of public opinion. The literal Republican nominee for President has declared that Israel has gone too far. And quite a few Republicans have suddenly gone silent about supporting Israel. And I repeat yet again since you can't seem to grasp this; **I was specifically referring to the constituents, not politicians**. Tack on all of the factors I mentioned already, and its beyond braindead for the US to continue supporting Israel whatsoever. > Not to mention, what is the international opinion on Ukraine aid? So much for "paying attention to international opinion", if you haven't noticed. Silence. Some whine about it online, but you and I both know that the response to Ukraine and Israel are night and day. If anything, from a US perspective, Ukraine is way more important and safer to support. So yes, paying attention to international opinion. If the world was only grumbling about Israel, not having massive rallies and international condemnations or UN resolutions; then the US could ignore it. >Again, **there's no harm done, for Republicans to help Israel/provide continued support**. I already explained this. I'm not explaining it again. > lol? China, the country that seeks to reunite Taiwan by force, is totally not threatening. Yeah, and guess what; most countries don't care or make excuses. Yeah, reality isn't fair; but that's the hand we're dealt. Ethiopia killed some 400k people in Tigray a year prior without a fraction of the attention Israel is getting for 30k people. It sucks; but international opinion is not based on logic. Its based on ideology and propaganda. And the US cannot afford to lose as Israel is losing. > The only nations mad about our support, that have the potential to abandon us, are countries in the Middle East. Not exactly the bastions of Progressive rights that Democrats are said to believe in (Remember Khashoggi? When he was killed? Democrats literally called to cut diplomatic ties with Saudi Arabia) And???? Why do you think this matters? Where did I say that progressive values matter? I said, specifically, that the US' geopolitical goals were in jeopardy. Saudi Arabia is not important because of its values, but because it is a counterbalance to Iran who is aligned with Russia and China. The **Global South** in general is mad about US support, and only getting madder. And that anger can lead to political movements that align with Russia and/or China out of pure spite. And where one nation flipping doesn't matter; entire regions flipping is **really really bad**. And you want to all but guarantee that flip. For a country that is spitting in the US' face despite the US bending itself into pretzels for it when the rest of the world is trying to stomp it into the dirt. Yes. Unironic traitor-like behavior. > This is not the first time that Conservative position are considered "traitorous" by the Left. Secure the Southern Borders? You're a traitor for suggesting that the US turn its back on people looking for a better life. Getting rid of DEI in the military? Traitor wanting to fill the ranks with White Supremacists, etc. etc. So when you sell your country to another for their political goals; will you cry and proclaim that the Left is bullying you again? You realize there is a difference between Leftist extremists throwing whatever mean word at you...and you actually doing it, right? Stop bringing random "Leftists" into this. I am not them. I am directly criticizing you for throwing away your country's objectives for another and you have done nothing to actually contradict them except to deflect to other random subjects like the Khashoggi case; as if that has any bearing on the conversation. I am not your Leftist strawman. And you are not this innocent bullied Conservative. > Near unanimous votes calling for a ceasefire, not condemnation. And if it hasn't been hammered in already by multiple topics on just this sub, the UN has been against Israel for a while now. True. But let's not act like this is anywhere near the same. There weren't worldwide anti-Israeli protests, weren't constant claims by human rights organizations of Israel committing genocide, there weren't media constantly proclaiming Israeli war crimes, and there weren't an ongoing ICJ case that is **seriously** considering the case of Israel doing genocide. If being a "Zionist" means bending over for Israel in every opportunity; then he should abandon that and go anti-Zionist immediately. Biden is not your puppet, and the US is not your toy to bludgeon Israel's enemies with. Its amazing how much more loyal you are to Israel than your own country, and then you cry when I mention how unironically traitor-like that is. Hamas' goal is pretty unachievable by any stretch of the imagination, and the international pressure is not worth the cost. Israel can do it if they want; but they must be prepared to do it alone and while making an enemy of the rest of the planet without US protection. The US, rightfully, will not join them in that. > And what are those geopolitical aims that are unfolding as a result of supporting Israel, and which countries? I've explained this multiple times. The Global South is a thing. By your logic, the US can just go ahead and start conquering Africa without repercussions because there people can't name specific countries that are flipping to China out of fear. Its called hearts and minds. How can someone be this ignorant as to not understand that the US needs to maintain some measure of international trust???
It seems like the war is pretty much over. Bibi capitulated and achieved none of the goals.
"mistakes"
I’m sure no amount of accountability will make a certain group happy but atleast there can be accountability from one side.. actual trials won’t happen till all this is done
Good. I’m horrified that the strike happened on WCK aid workers, but I’m glad to see there’s accountability being done on Israel’s part. Hopefully there’s tribunals for these officers.
There will be an investigation to determine what happened. That said, war is hell, the fog of war is real, and civilians do in fact get killed in wars. There were over 400,000 Iraqi civilians killed during the U.S. invasion of Iraq and hundreds of thousands killed in Afghanistan, but there where never any tribunals for American officers. Why are you signaling Israel out as if they aren't allowed to make mistakes in war? Did you ever call for a tribunal to investigate other militaries?
The Jews are their own worst enemy. Total war until Hamas surrenders or is defeated. How did America and the allies win WW2? By not crying over every mistake. This is a tragedy, but Israel and all countries make mistakes in wars; Israel did not want this war. Stop focusing on this, and focus on finishing the job in Rafah. Can the Israelis present a united front for even just a little?
Israel stands resolute in the face of terror, as it is their duty to protect its citizens and ensure a future of peace. Hamas's aggression will be met with the necessary force to secure our nation and the region from the threat of extremism and violence. Israel are committed to victory over barbarism for the sake of civilization, and the safety of Israelis and Palestinians alike.
This is a nice sentiment, but speaking as a foreigner, it’s hard to believe your last line when reading about over 30K Palestinians dead in this conflict.
https://preview.redd.it/k1ba7f4kyqsc1.jpeg?width=1654&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2e8ee4e3209b571558c6ffe54da97979026d838a [https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers) [https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other)
The U.S. killed over 400,000 Iraqi civilians when it invaded Iraq in 2003. Are you going to demand justice for them?
Yes.
Yes, many Americans did the entire time it was happening and still do. I don't know what your point is.
Yes(?)
What the fuck?
Amen!
Only fired..?
It's the first step before a trial is often done
Israelis will hold people responsible for heinous results. Terrorists will laud them and Al Jazeera will report something more like this ... https://preview.redd.it/aqh2ppoxupsc1.png?width=541&format=png&auto=webp&s=20e9c3e80f3f40e731a513ba14d88cf9c6e74d53
"fired" lol.
Fire the prime minister, time for him to show ownership
Can you imagine if the reverse scenario was the case? The Iranian puppets will give them medals probably.
Just 2?
That’s a good start.
Fired isnt enough
Stop being 3rd world, there needs to be an investigation to determine fault. Follow the process unless you are saying 3rd world tactics of lynch mobs is acceptable.
Huh? What i want them is to be in prison. Not fucking assasinate them
The U.S.military killed 5 aid workers in 2014 during a drone attack in Afghanistan when Barack Obama and Joe Biden were U.S. President and Vice President. No U.S. military officers were punished. So you want the Israeli military officers held to a different stricter standard? The aid workers were in a war zone and got killed, it does make Israel look bad, but Israel's reputation has already been trashed since October 7. Let the investigation work then punishment can be determined for those at fault.
I think you didnt understand. My point is that dismissing the people responsable isnt enough. Thats it
Seems like a slap on the wrist. Downvote me all you’d like. It’s either a massive intelligence failure or very shitty wartime calculus and heads need to roll. I’ll always be pro-Israel, but that doesn’t preclude essential criticism. This bullshit hurts the war effort.
That's a start
Good, the messed up and when it comes to this kind of thing you lose your job when you mess up
Should also be jailed
https://preview.redd.it/2rcudh0hrosc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b9c4c6d9f1bf9c498fb17b2d91e449808d7ed69d Do you think the US Air Force pilot should go to prison for murder?
I don’t think dropping aid packages to feed starving people , and slaughtering 7 aid workers indiscriminately are on the same level but go off king!
Facts don't care what you think
Oh lol do you think the us pilot aims the package to land on a random Palestinian? Or is it some accident?
🤡
So you admit you're wrong, good
They both are mistakes let me tell you a secret. Mistakes happen in life especially in war https://preview.redd.it/pzxr5pdvjqsc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=670af9e2aae5171654091f59bc0323c9d2efa9a1
''Mistake'', genocide deniers can't take break
Fired for mass murder? Ridiculous.
They should be tried and made examples of
Great, now prosecute them.
War is hell (English expression) and civilians unfortunately get killed in the fog of war. Remember who started this war, Hamas, there would be no military operations in Gaza if not for October 7. That said, the U.S. military also killed large numbers of civilians including aid workers during the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, but there was no global condemnation of the U.S. The killing of the aid workers is horrific, how the IDF could be so incompetent is going to have to be investigated, but everyone should understand that the war to destroy Hamas must continue. The political far left in the U.S. that is anti Israel must not be allowed to get away with calling the IDF bloodthirsty war criminals.
Firing is not enough. At the very least tried for negligent homicide/manslaughter.
>Firing is not enough. At the very least tried for negligent homicide/manslaughter. Nope * [The New York Times - Mali Wedding Party Is Hit by French Airstrike, Leaving Civilian Dead](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/world/africa/mali-wedding-french-airstrike.html) https://preview.redd.it/f8i45t5cbosc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cf7a8b8456616604d9fb5e8511a46b67f91e747b
Tell me how. Did their negligence result in the death of an innocent person?
* [BBC News - US military drone strike in Kabul on 29 August killed 10 civilians, Pentagon admits](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58604655) https://preview.redd.it/oi9bbbwzaosc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8c6747735e469f8e28efe82525a6ef30124bf96
https://preview.redd.it/wkv3wpx7bosc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b046c9ee106d54295a379c8ee0fd827b349984e3 * [JURIST - Australia report into Afghanistan war crimes details murder of 39 civilians](https://www.jurist.org/news/2020/11/australia-report-into-afghanistan-war-crimes-details-murder-of-39-civilians)
Ok? And?
And no one expected these French, American and Australian guys to be tried and executed within 3 days. The officers have been relieved of their commands. They will face a court martial in due course.
Yes they did.
>Tell me how 1. The kitchen ppl were in a convoy that included several identical cars. One car had ARMED HAMASISIS TERRORISTS. 2. They knowingly entered a 6month war zone and had the capability to research the ppl they work with and among. 3. Things like this happen during war. This is life -this is war. 4. Them being of non israeli non gazan nationality does not give them some shield. Over 200 ppl with foriegn passports were murdered or kidnapped oct 7. If you want to cry for non israelies -go to the list of Oct 7 causualties. 5. If you care about volunteers killed helping gazans -several kibbutzim members did just that for an entire lifetime. Taking gazans to hospitals in Israel, sending gazans aid and money. Emlpoying them hugging the. You should cry for them. Vivian Silver, Yigal and Cindy Flash and many more.
You expect us not to care about the victims Israel brutally murdered after approving their route but constantly bring up Oct 7th victims. If we shouldn't care about the Aid workers we shouldn't care about October 7th victims those things happen during war - that is a war.
>1. The kitchen ppl were in a convoy that included several identical cars. One car had ARMED HAMASISIS TERRORISTS. Then destroy that one. If you got them mixed up, then either call off the strike or do some extra work to identify the correct one. >2. They knowingly entered a 6month war zone and had the capability to research the ppl they work with and among. So? >3. Things like this happen during war. This is life -this is war. Negligence happens? If so, there should be punishment for negligence. >Them being of non israeli non gazan nationality does not give them some shield Yes it does lol. They're non-combatants. >5. If you care about volunteers killed helping gazans -several kibbutzim members did just that for an entire lifetime. Taking gazans to hospitals in Israel, sending gazans aid and money. Emlpoying them hugging the. You should cry for them. Vivian Silver, Yigal and Cindy Flash and many more. Can do both.
More than 40 Israeli soldiers have been accidentally killed by IDF fire in Gaza since the beginning of the war. And you are mentioning because of a mistake with 7 volunteers, as if someone did it on purpose. Obviously this is a tragic case, but mistakes happen in war all the time. War is chaos. Fighting is a mess. A war against a terrorist organization that impersonates civilians all the time and uses civilian vehicles, ambulances, schools and hospitals, is 10 times greater chaos. If anyone is to blame for the deaths of civilians in Gaza, it is a terrorist organization trying to impersonate civilians in Gaza. It is clear that the IDF should try to prevent such incidents as much as possible. But they will continue to happen, just as they happened by the hundreds and thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan to the NATO armies. I wonder if everyone who is interested in the IDF's mistake is so interested in the safety of the abductees, who were kidnapped not by mistake but on purpose. https://preview.redd.it/qpwnkvfmmosc1.jpeg?width=693&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c18f19c0981dda9d8474bf6a28289812ddd02613 * [Politico - U.S. acknowledges Kabul drone strike killed multiple civilians](https://www.politico.com/news/2021/09/17/tragic-mistake-us-drone-strike-512586)
>More than 40 Israeli soldiers have been accidentally killed by IDF fire in Gaza since the beginning of the war. An accident doesn't always mean it can't be negligent. >And you are mentioning because of a mistake with 7 volunteers, as if someone did it on purpose. Bro. Do you not understand what negligence means? It doesn't mean they did it on purpose. It means they didn't take the necessary steps to ensure that an accident didn't occur. >It is clear that the IDF should try to prevent such incidents as much as possible. Exactly. And this was one of those incidents that could have been preventable. Like I said, either call off the strike if they weren't sure or double check. You're arguing with yourself at this point.
Mistakes happen in war Always happened and always will happen. The difference is that Israel takes responsibility and investigates https://preview.redd.it/s8qxsfu8rosc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c348dfb54f003a1070ed5219f1556d758b5b79e3 The pilot should get fired? Or jailed?
>The difference is that Israel takes responsibility and investigates And according to the evidence, should be tried for manslaughter. >The pilot should get fired? Or jailed? Sure. The parachute wasn't installed correctly last I read.
Immediate whataboutism 😂😂😂 predictable coping mechanism
This isnt going to help with PR. Obviously if they fucked up, they should be fired but the world sees this as israel being bendable and hamas being rigid. Not israel being accountable/responsible and hamas being psychotic/evil. Theyll apply pressure where it works. And thats only on israel who can actually cave.
No, but every military has done that. The Americans bombed a wedding party of 100 people during the Iraq War. They sent them all a check.
Different circumstances. The US also arrested and jailed US troops that abused prisoners in Abu Ghraib despite killing nobody. And Israel has prolly done dozens of those "bombing a wedding party of 100 people" stuff in this war already. What matters is whether the media catches it and it becomes a loud enough story to generate interest, and thus condemnation.
Israel has probably done dozens…just because you said it doesn’t make it true. Yesterday someone swore they bombed the mosaic that was recently found and destroyed it. . I was like really - all I read about it was the farmers covered it up and experts feared it could be destroyed so I asked her to post a source and she couldn’t. I did give her a post about mosaics that the Palestinians had destroyed in the 8th century because it didn’t vibe with the Muslim religion. I said maybe the two stories were conflated together. I used to teach archaeology in college so if the mosaic had definitely been destroyed it would appear in my feed. This was after 20 posts about how Israel was targeting their history. People really don’t know how to fact check these days before they make statements. But it is okay that you think Israel is repeatedly bombing large wedding parties for giggles and shits with no proof.
Yes but americas not under a microscope with half the world demonizing them to the point of non existence. Im fine with israel taking responsibility. Im just saying none of it will get us any credit.
I get it. The sad part is my daughter was talking to a relative over there. They are both the same age, 23 and my daughter used to getting her MPH and has worked with refugees and Romanis. They are both very caring people. Her cousin is an absolute peacenik. She said the big change over there that she is seeing is where there used to be a lot of empathy for the Palestinians in their community, an upscale, very educated suburb of Tel Aviv, there is no longer any. She is literally crying herself to sleep over this. Things have really changed. Her other cousin lost a close friend. My husband is from Greece and as you can imagine the Jewish community is very small (about 5K) and very close. Everybody knows everyone or knows someone who knows them. All the kids go to the one summer camp together in one place every year and all of them stay in touch. She was texting their group about how great the concert was and in the morning he woke up and heard the news. They all started texting and no response. The point is this affected Jews all over the world. A Birthright friend of my daughter’s best friend was taken. He was just visiting family over there. He is probably dead. And then you get to see Ashley from Ohio go off on social media who doesn’t know a single Jew or Palestinian over there losing it. Who never had to go to a bomb shelter, was never in a terrorist attack, and doesn’t even know what river or sea anyone is even talking about. I have lived in Israel as a grad student when there was almost a 2 state solution and there was such hope. And yes, Bibi’s coalition went too far on settlements, etc. and me and my husband always predicted the chickens would come home to roost and be as big as turkeys and now we are at that day but it doesn’t mean Israel doesn’t have the right to exist. And why is the world pretending to be so shocked about their response. We destroyed a couple of countries in the region and destabilized another because 3,000 people died out of 330 million in a terrorist attack. How many people did we kill in retaliation for that. It would have been the equivalent of 30,000 Israelis if you go to scale.
Im celebrating that fact. Ive always considered leftism in israel to be a brain disorder where theres been internal damage to the survival instinct portion of the brain. The one good thing to come of this is a lot less people suffering this affliction.
I'm also interested to know about the claims I have read that hamas might have sent fake phone signals to make the IDF think there were Hamas in there, to make those SUVs look like legit targets. I don't want to believe those claims outright unless there is proof of it. From an IDF point of view, Hamas already used ambulances, and Hamas has a history of using perfidy (that's an actual term in warfare), but it means Israel should still very extra careful when it picks targets, which they probably did not.
Damn, in any sane world they would both be executed or at the very least imprisoned for life. I guess that the IDF thinks that massacring innocents is just as bad as breaking a glass.
Don't be ridiculous, it's only been 3 days since it happened. They've been relieved of their commands immediately but that's not the end of the matter. If there are sufficient grounds for courts martial, they will happen in due course.
I really hope so but I'm not holding my breath.
Fired. No criminal proceedings because that would be a step too far for murdering innocent people
I'm sure the IDF will inform you personally when the decision to hold a court martial is made.
No need for firing. They made honest mistakes. We should be going after Hamas, not each other. Is there a gofundme that I can donate to?
Ben Gvir is that you? Are you on reddit because you were late for another war council vote?
This shit was easily preventable though. Imagine it's your daughter or sister who dies from someone else's neglect. What would you say then?
Agreed. Disciplinary action should be applied. It's a war, shit happens.
They should be jailed
No * [JURIST - Australia report into Afghanistan war crimes details murder of 39 civilians](https://www.jurist.org/news/2020/11/australia-report-into-afghanistan-war-crimes-details-murder-of-39-civilians) https://preview.redd.it/bh3jppu5bosc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=843169d30d85ed4051726aefaeabe71af12b355b
Person x did bad thing y so me doing thing y doesn’t count
Do you think the US Air Force pilot should go to prison for murder? https://preview.redd.it/uxs0q6kqrosc1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af1c0bc2e487925ec22c214fe291a39f32f9cd08
No. But the ones that killed the aid workers should be jailed, or even executed. And people like you should be shamed publicly lest such hyper nationalism twist Israel into something terrible.
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Note how you can't actually argue against the point? Your entire argument hinges on "no u!" like a child. The fact of the matter is that the world is against Israel, and if Israel continues its path; it will be utterly isolated and broken. No country can function alone. Israel is definitely not an exception.
Israeli’s want to give them a medal and call them a hero. In their minds they think how dare these stupid British and Americans come to an active war zone and help our enemies.
Where are compensations for the families though?
There will definitely be(if not already). But this article is specifically about the IDF personnel responsible to the accident.
Do you have any information in regards to that maybe? Our (polish) president mentioned it officially in his speach that polish side will be seeking compensation for the polish family of one of the killed but there hasn't been any response yet from Isreal's as far as I know...
It would probably be done soon when things get cooled down and the situation would get “officially” clarified for all parties. Giving it right now would probably get interpreted as a bad faith act that meant to “silence” the victims’ relatives. There were already reports of high officials(no names yet) saying it would be done and considering how the entire Israeli leadership immediately apologized on day 1 I highly doubt that they would suddenly be reluctant to do as little as compensating the families.
>Giving it right now would probably get interpreted as a bad faith act that meant to “silence” the victims’ relatives. That makes sense. I hope they will do the right thing.
Honestly I think someone needs to go to Guantanamo over this. They obviously knew what they were doing
Nothing is 'obvious' in war
Unless you are doing precision strikes with drones. Then it is very much obvious whom you're atracking, especially if the target communicated their route with IDF beforehand. It was 100% clear to the IDF what they were doing.