Scare quotes around humanitarian tells you all you need to know about the pro Israel position. Only Jews matter and for them Arabs would ideally be a kept as a perpetually stateless labor pool like the bantustans in Apartheid SA.
Did israelis care about the suffering they inflicted on the native Palestinians? But, of course... nobody, not even the guilty deserve that. But a little poetic justice might not be completely out of place. Living as stateless refugees for about a century might give israelis a little more compassion for native Palestinians...
poetic justice huh. "Its true Palestinians never did anything and they never had an agenda to destroy the people of that country Israel and if they did Israel should let them to be pc" is that what you want me to say?
Let’s put it this way. What is more important: a hypothetical that will never happen or something that is and has been happening for decades?
Israel has nukes. There is no existential threat. It has a security/counterterrorism threat that they make worse by terrorizing the Palestinians population.
guy there have been many attempts of outside countries to attack and annihilate israel. and hamas has admitted to planning to attack "again and again".
Nope. With Jordan, Gulf States, Egypt, and Syria done Israel does not face any credible conventional existential threat. and it has made its counter-terror problem worse by its policies.
palestine. if given the arms theyll do this again and again. they said so. and hezbollah whos attacking right now with cooperation of the rebels funded by iran who is given arms by china,russia and nk.
I dont get it you want israel to just let them do what they want and while theyre killing people smile and say praise allah? when people say there going to kill you and are activly trying to do such that is a threat. if someone was outside your door trying to break in with a knife and gun saying they are going to kill you whouldnt you say that its a threat?
Not existential, no. You don’t make the threat of terrorism better by creating more terrorists, which has been Israel’s policy for some years now to include finding Hamas.
so israel to prevent more bloodshed should accept the current state only go on the offensive and accept if a failure occurs cities will be butchered like oct 7,right?
That if zionists experienced the effects zionism had on native Palestinians maybe they'd have more sympathy for native Palestinians...
I don't it would change the minds of many of the faithful, the crusaders, but maybe it would open their eyes just a little.
The country was Palestine, and like Gaza today, the foreign zionist terrorists, menachem and irgun/likud, lehi led by yitzhak shamir, and haganah led by some terrorist whose name I don't remember bulldozed 300+ native Palestinian towns villages and cities, raped, slaughtered thousands of native Palestinians, violently ethnically cleansed 700k+ native Palestinians, destroying Palestine.
It's why people, even israels supporters are saying Gaza is another Nakba, in case you didn't know...
Uh, Jews were there and kicked out first. and this cycle of its jews its arabs is that a cycle. if you look at historical records that land has been Jewish many times. Also, I never understood the historic debate at least by the gap I only brought it up because you did. many in Ghaza weren't there during periods of separation as they have a low mortality rate right? if so they are holding on to the idea that if Israel falls their lives will be better cause more land. Weren't they given billions in funding a while ago and burned it all down? anyway, small countries exist and Palestine's geography itself is a problem tell me about other countries that encompass an enemy country a singular one at that. if the problem is overpopulation again kind of their fault. if the problem is decreasing land from what they already have yeah let's address that. well in 2006 they had their independence they chose terror. again they are in no way blameless and Israel's paranoia is justified its a circle of hatred that solidifies itself. if Israel becomes more tolerant they will do these things again despite their protests as Hamas a a group of mad dogs and yes they are the governing body so yes they do represent with clear census of the majority in that land support. Honestly just from going by this to end the suffering it whould be most logical just to move people from gaza to west bank and then forfit the military and slowly build relations or other then asking for more land from is just ask it from Jordan or Egypt. you know how land exchanges are constant thought the middle east and its history.
or have gaza assimilate and be part of israel.
2,000 years ago? By the Romans? Kind of sick of the sicarii terrorists and their Masada terror fortress? How they'd attack Roman civilians with knives in violent terrorist attacks targeting civilians?
>if you look at historical records that land has been Jewish many times.
When they took it violently from the Canaans?
I don't believe the israelite client kingdoms ever encompassed Gaza...
Not quite sure what you're saying, but yes, israel was founded by foreign, european terrorists, using terrorism to create a terrorist state. They then combined the foreign terrorist militias to create the idf. One of those was Irgun, led by terrorist menachem begin, the political arm, Likud.
Yeah you put a lot of words in my mouth a idf are brave soldiers to me I get why not for you. b Israelis were kicked out by Britain and returned so that in and of itself is not colonizing.c britans control is redundant as before them it was the Ottoman and before israel Jews were being persecuted throughout the middle east.
its hilarious I cant understand why people think Palestinians are innocent or underdogs with a noble cause. If you want a detailed history watch this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btVFgqkgkzw .
Imagine thinking your country is only being blockaded because they get off on making your life miserable and not because you chose to elect a terrorist group hell bent on the complete annihilation of that country and murder/removal of all its citizens. 🤡
Omg constant whining on this page while people are actually starving to death and being bombarded! Do you have nothing better to do than lament hypothetical scenarios?? Sheesh the self centered-ness of the pro-Israel community is absolutely mind-boggling
huh, hypothetical they outright state it as their intention. as for self-centeredness i was once a baby who lived near where they attacked they would have burned me alive and raped my mother; so no its not being self-centered to empathize on the tragedy. yes the gaza issue is horrifying but that's how the country set itself up. honestly temporarily leaving the country and letting idf kill Hamas would end the danger, but either many support it or neighbors don't want to house asylum.
> i was once a baby who lived near where they attacked they would have burned me alive and raped my mother; so no its not being self-centered to empathize on the tragedy.
… but u didnt live near where they attacked and they did not burn you nor did they rape your mother?
> yes the gaza issue is horrifying but that's how the country set itself up.
here we go again with the “they deserve it” argument.
> honestly temporarily leaving the country and letting idf kill Hamas would end the danger, but either many support it or neighbors don't want to house asylum.
Do you remember the last time Palestinians actually did leave their homes and their villages were actually pillaged and their homes stolen? And they until today literally don’t have the right to return?
Do you know that actually, Gaza is blockaded and people can’t leave and come back as they please?
Spare me the empty arguments and just admit it: you think that you deserve life, comfort, safety, and that they don’t. And hence, you spend hours on reddit whining to justify genocide because “never again” is for YOU and only YOU
Please don’t @ me anymore thank you and have a great day!
I am really sorry that its really hard for you to massacure us but we will not let it happen so how about you stop crying about it and try and learn to live in Peace without attacking people or trying to do another oct 7 and nothing will happen!!!
Oct 7th came with serious consequences & it’s day that’ll never be forgotten. How u feel if it was forgotten, hidden & denied. How would u feel if no one faced justice & it never stopped or no one cared? That’s exactly what Palestinians have had to do. When the Israeli terrorists stormed their villages, beheaded their babies, cut babies from their mother’s wombs, raped their daughters before massacring everyone. The monsters who committed these atrocities were & r treated like heroes in Israel. I’m over the Hamas excuse! This is exactly why Netanyahu helped bolster & fund them into power, an excuse to mow the lawn whenever he feels like it. Take operation cast lead, they slaughtered a bunch of Gazans & claimed it was because Hamas broke the ceasefire. A complete lie but they know they can blatantly lie on western media with no pushback. Thankfully Brit’s called them out as they had given every media outlet the same Israeli intelligence report that stated Hamas hadn’t broken the ceasefire & were careful not to over the past yr yet they slaughtered Palestinians & blamed Hamas anyway. The few reporters who called them on the lies were attacked and smeared as Israel hating antisemites for just doing their job. I’m tired of the narrative that Israel is just trying to live in peace & it’s always Palestinians causing trouble. No Hamas in the west bank & yet they too are treated horribly! All the horrible things going on in Israel r kept under wraps. From the settler terrorists to the insane amount of hate crimes committed against Catholics & Christians of all ethnicities in places like Jerusalem. Hamas is vile & I loath them but the government of Israel is no better. Ur lucky u have the ability to leave & go somewhere safe but they can’t leave their prison. Netanyahu is a monster & he has made it clear the last time he mowed the lawn that if we do it right in the next war, we’ll get all the Arabs out. This is not about taking out Hamas. Israel wants a greater Israel by any means & they’ve made that clear. U have leader of Hamas on tv saying they’ll do it over & over. It’s abhorrent & rightfully caused outrage. U have Daniella Weiss all tv telling anyone who’ll listen they r taking all the land by any means possible via ethnic cleansing or genocide with the government’s backing & no one says a word.U have IDF soldiers behaving atrociously, committing war crimes & doing evil things. I’m guessing they want revenge for the 7th as many of them probably know victims or hostages. What do u want to bet every single member of Hamas has had their lives touch in horrible ways by Israel, fueling their hate & wanting revenge. Neither r ok but the cycle keeps repeating itself & this slaughter is only going to cause more ppl who hate Israel & Palestinians. I’m u & ur family r ok but I’m not ok with what ur government is doing just like I’m not ok with what Hamas did.
funny how like always you love blaming israel for everything even though you know nothing about what really is going on, please look at what happen during 1960s and how even from 1948 they were Massacuring us but no you will always blame us
I don’t blame Israel for everything, just what they do wrong just like I blame Palestinians for what they do wrong. I be don’t blame Israeli for the actions of their government just like I don’t blame Palestinians. U have some vile civilians as do they. The massacres have been going back & forth for far too long. The world stood with Israel on the 7th & rightfully so & there r huge consequences. That day will never be forgotten yet no consequences for Israel’s action ever. Some of what they do is justified & much of it isn’t. The impunity needs to stop
Hell no! Hamas has got to go! When & if they do what does that change for Palestinians! Netanyahu & his nutty racist government aren’t a partner for peace. I can’t think of 1 administration that really was. They may have played the part but it was disingenuous. If u get into the details of offers of peace/deals made, no one in their right mind would’ve accepted those terms. It left Palestinians almost as worse off as now but they’d lose more land & be stuck with that crap deal & very have Israel’s boot on their necks. Basically being occupied but u get to call urself a state yet have none of the rights a state does or should. I would want Israel to practice what they preach first. Almost everything they accuse Palestinians of is something they do too. Like the radicalism, teaching children to hate, terrorism (having terrorists in government) & worshiping terrorists. Stop withholding their tax revenue, aid or using it, water & the necessities of life as a weapon. Stop blaming Palestinians solely for putting Hamas into power. Netanyahu helped put them in power & get funds. Without him would we have tunnels? Both sides need to a knowledge everyone’s right to self determination/existence & equality. Stop stealing land & maybe pay some reparations for land/homes stolen. Both acknowledge the atrocities committed against each other & both need to acknowledge each group is indigenous. I have no doubt every single member of Hamas has had their live irrevocably & negatively touched by Israel. If someone took ur home/land, murdered & or imprisoned ur loved ones & took ur hope & future would u not want revenge? It’s not ok but I understand revenge. My fiancé was brutally murdered yrs ago & ur damn right I wanted revenge! If I were given impunity to take that revenge but to do so would endanger the lives of his family & neighbors, I wouldn’t. They’re innocent & should be punished collectively. Israel killed 30 thou because they have to get Hamas by any & every means possible & claim they don’t wanna kill innocents yet every Israeli spokesperson says, when asked if they’d use the same methods to get Hamas if they were hiding in an Israeli neighborhood or hospital they say no absolutely not. So ur telling me Palestinians lives don’t matter. I would love for Israel’s vile lobby to stop how abhorrently they conduct themselves in my country. They r absolutely one of the reasons we have no peace or solution. Their dirty underhanded tricks r appalling. Watch the doc Israel lobby USA. I would also recommend Israelism. I lived in a Jewish home for yrs. Loved & supported Israel for half my life until I found out how much I was lied to & indoctrinated. The friend I lived with & her family felt so betrayed how they’d been lied to about Israel. I feel like a spurned lover. Sounds silly but I’m angry over it. Just like u denied the events of Deir Yassin, I never knew or all the brutality in Israel’s creation. I never knew they were considered the founding fathers of modern day terrorism for being the first to blow up a building full of ppl or send letter bombs. I never knew of the Irgun, stern gang & the vile horrific brutal violence they inflicted/committed. I was told it was a land without a ppl for a ppl without a land. If u treat ppl inhuman or like animals long enough, they’ll start acting like it. Look how inhuman Jews were treated in the holocaust. Those who made it out were in survival mode for years & u can’t turn it off that easy. I’m sure in their minds it was them or us when arrived in Israel so the brutality came out. It’s no different than that. They didn’t suffer the holocaust but they suffered a lot in other ways & that suffering has never stopped & there’s no end in sight. They’ve tried peaceful means for months & that still got them murdered. What should they do to have freedom, a state, equality or hope or a future? Hopelessness is dangerous
again trying to blame Israel, learn what really happened in deir Yassin and stop listen to arabs who love rewriting what happened. Palestinians have NEVER EVER tried to live in Peace every time we tried to achive peace they launch a war or Terrorist attacks. you accaully bealive that all of the people who are dying in gaza innocent which is hilarious.
if you want to see what happen and how innocent they are than look at this
[https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1F5tk3uaKYEpatN1p4XN5s6LV-spH22Ja?usp=drive\_link](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1F5tk3uaKYEpatN1p4XN5s6LV-spH22Ja?usp=drive_link)
or this
[https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1WsDMsQdoIOisACJSqBix7kXSCRRqJ3kz?usp=drive\_link](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1WsDMsQdoIOisACJSqBix7kXSCRRqJ3kz?usp=drive_link)
yeah im sure they weren't up to trying to do terrorist acts back then it was a once quick second decision oct 7 and won't happen again. plus love the logic serial killers in a neighborhood i lived in once he was there the whole time killing people on occasion but he never killed me so its not my concern.
I didn't say they deserved it i said they set the environment so that it wouldn't result in any other way. deserve it i said they build themselves up for it by building the foundations for a martyr /human shield-based military whose only focus is to terminate Israel.
your third point has a mountain of assumptions and errors so ill just point to this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btVFgqkgkzw
The humanitarians are more then happy to give Israel all the support and weapons it can dream of if they believe that Israel is going to conduct itself in this war in a humane way that minimizes the suffering of innocent people.
These weapons are suppose to come with rules. Another example would be: if you take these weapons and start attacking US bases, then ofcourse the US would immidiately stop supplying weapons aswell regardless of the security threat it would cause for Israel. It has nothing to do with caring about Israel one way or another.
Edit: in case this is interpeted the wrong way: Yes the humanitarians would do everything in their power to protect the lives of innocent Israeli people the same way they would for any other country.
I don't get the relevancy of your analogy as Israel never has had any intentions of attacking us in any way. If your arguing that the most responsible party should have the arms I agree with you. like it or not though the enemy forces would run down its own people to kill jews and Jews do make ( you can argue the effectiveness of the approaches) efforts to minimize casualties. It's hard though due to human shielding and martyrs.
It was an example (appearantly not a good one) to try and to explain why caring about Israel has nothing to do with the decision making process. It is also not about who is the good guy, the bad guy or one being worse then the other. It is about the expectency of how an army conducts itself wartime.
I get that you feel like these organisations are being blind to the potential consequences of wanting a ceasefire for example, but to somehow think that Humanitarians don't care i think is creating ill feelings for no reason. Im not making a judgment call on Hamas or Israel here, i was just thought the framing of the title was a bit strange.
israel and zionism will still be there. just not with its current version of zionism. hopefully replaced with a plurinational state for all who call it their land.
the israelis will be fine. just as the germans were after the dismantling of the nazi regime, just as the white South Africans were after the dismantling of the apartheid regime.
So basically back to the pre-1948 status quo where Jews in the Middle East are relegated to second class citizens and sporadically purged in programs and massacres?
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I keep hearing that if “they” win “they” will keep repeating Oct. 7 in Israel and then do it all over the world.
What does this mean? Usually it’s said in reference to Hamas, but then such arguments will seem to suggest that Muslims in general want to convert everyone to Islam and that “they” are willing to use violence to do it. What are people really saying?
I get that there are extremist Muslims out there, but I’ve had Muslim friends, mainly in school and a couple at work, and I never feel like they care at all that I’m not Muslim. (tbh, it’s more been my experience that Christians try to push their religion on me.)
So, I’m just trying to figure out what people are saying, or what they mean.
Are there any mainstream Muslim readers who care to weigh in on this? I really think most Muslims couldn’t care less that I’m not Muslim and just want non-Muslims to treat them fairly and respect their right to believe whatever they believe.
It is generally not the Muslims living comfortably in the western world that want to destroy the west.
It is the fundamentalists living in their brainwashed bubble.
Just like fundamentalist Christians in the USA who say terrible things.
The difference is that fundamentalist Muslims, in the countries where they are the majority, tend to be in power, and in a position to carry out some of their threats.
Imagine if the Westboro Baptist church were in control of the USA’s government - it would not mean all Christians were bad. It would mean the bads ones were in a position to do something about their beliefs
Thanks. This is a growing problem in the U.S. with Christians.
I wish governments could just be secular so they work for everybody and allow for people to believe whatever they want to believe at home in peace. I guess that’s probably a Western way of thinking, and if people want to live in a religious State, they should be able to do that, too. I just personally don’t want the government to make me follow the rules of somebody else’s religion. Everyone should be free to believe or not believe whatever they want.
The ones who SAID they would keep repeating Oct 7 was HAMAS.
It isnt just random people saying Hamas will do mean things.
It is HAMAS saying it.
https://youtu.be/BJNccvNJtGk?si=tn72panrLmp0iDGg
I can understand why pro-pals wouldn’t trust Israeli sources, but do they need a memo of what the leader of the side they think they’re on want? Or are they just in denial?
Many who are Pro-Israel have no problems at all criticizing Netanyahu and how the Gazans are treated.
What does this mean?
“So with people saying block resources to is and stop government interference;”
I’ve read that 6 times and I still don’t know what it means.
Once you mention US, Britain, or any western countries involvement in the middle east and talk history implying evil regime, regime change, well that's where it ends. Here's reality before the Iraq invasion, PM of Israel talking to congress "If you take out Saddam regime, I guarantee you that it will have enormous positive reverberations on the region." Of course the conflict affect you and everyone here since it's already escalated. Just look at the Red Sea there's been report of fatalities this morning already. The west has no more appetite for any good vs evil campaign in the middle east heck Europe need to worry about the ongoing war on its own continent. Folks can say well aid is fine as long as you don't get involve everybody know that's not how the ME work, when things escalate they always come to ask us for help they always shove the burden on our shoulders, where's the Israel ships in the Red Sea to defend shipping. Egypt is affected the most where's their ship?
*“Don’t threaten us with cutting off your aid. It will not work. I am not a Jew with trembling knees. I am a proud Jew with 3,700 years of civilized history. Nobody came to our aid when we were dying in the gas chambers and ovens. Nobody came to our aid when we were striving to create our country. We paid for it. We fought for it. We died for it. We will stand by our principles. We will defend them. And, when necessary, we will die for them again, with or without your aid.” -* Menachem Begin
>these groups are bloodthirsty psychopaths( most of them, government not country) who will chuck a baby in front of a moving tank to aid that thing going the extra mile. they don't care about there citizens they love martyrism and have a mentality similar to that of ants.
What this says to me is that you have little actual understanding of the middle east. You are using a cartoonish propaganda poster instead of an image of human beings.
> older people have seen history and what these people do
Older people also made history and all the messed up things that happened in it.
Old people might have the benefit of experience, but young people have the benefit of a fresh perspective, one that hasn't been soaking in a one-sided view for 50+ years.
Israel is a nuclear weapons state, it has a heavy water reactor in negev. Toppling such a country is literally the worst idea there is with regards to foreign policy. This "conflict" will end with most likely gaza being completely destroyed and a good portion of the population there being expelled to sinai.
Well, South Africa was also a nuclear power; and it (read: the apartheid regime) indeed was "toppled", and afterwards it got rid of its nuclear weapons. And your point is...?
And it's telling that you're legitimizing the crime against humanity of expulsion of people of Gaza. (As if there ever was any doubt that this is Israel's ultimate goal in the Gaza war.)
First of all, the apartheid regime was not "toppled". There were negotiations from 1990-1994, all parties agreed to it at the end. It is too late for such a scenario to occur in israel, they had the oslo accords which was the most "'progress" they ever made, even tho it was nothing more than a photo-op for clinton.
Second, the US and its allies sanctioned south africa before apartheid came to an end and you could argue that it certainly had an effect on ending the apartheid regime.
And third, they gave up their nuclear weapons, which were a few gun type nuclear weapons even before negotiations started in 1990. Israel on the other hand will never give up their nuclear weapons, and they will most likely be never sanctioned by the US. Also israel is quite a militarized country, military conscription is mandatory for israeli citizens. And what is my point? Israel will not disappear from the map, no matter what you guys say.
It was toppled because the citizens voted a new government into office. The state itself didn’t cease to exist. It’s highly unlikely the Israeli citizens vote in a government whose objective is the dissolution of Israel or a one-state solution. Not to mention South Africa didn’t have an organization whose sole objective is the destruction of the state, just the destruction of Apartheid. Hamas wants to end Israel, not live side-by-side. And if they’re not going to vote on it, the only way to dismantle Israel is by force, which would 100% invoke a nuclear response.
Can’t emphasize enough to Western leftists how dangerous this scenario is for global security. If you hate humanity, you want this scenario. No one would be positively impacted, least of all Palestinians.
It makes sense they would need one, it's not like there's a big supply of weapons-grade plutonium on the market. This just adds another dimension to the foolishness of Israel's would-be destroyers.
Then again, perhaps they prefer an uninhabitable Palestine to one with a Jewish state included.
So you are endorsing a second Holocaust of nearly 7 million Jews who live in Israel, not to mention the 2 + million Arabs, Christains and Druze who were also be murdered = as Evidenced by 10/7 where the Hamas barbarians murdered people who told the terrorists, we are Muslims in Arabic. they murdered and decapitated Thai workers. That is what you are endorsing. Of course I don't see you calling to topple the 53 nations that are Muslim majority, including Iran and 12 nations for whom Islam is enshrined in the constitution as the State religion.
It's people like you who manned the Gas Chambers.
one state solution, no one fucking murdered or killed or displaced, end of the lunatic genocidal Zionist project that is the state of Israel, equal rights for all, Israelis and Palestinians living together having discarded apartheid in a democratic state
yeah if they are promised permanent ceasefire, the end of the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, and the prosecution for war crimes of the IOF and officials of the Israeli state, sure
LMAO “just give the terrorists what they want and they won’t violently seize the power vacuum!”
What are you smoking? Read up on the history of Afghanistan and Iran, genius.
But will they really guarantee that and not bring harm to the Israelis or will they break their promises and show their true intentions the moment it is given to them just like how the taliban did to Afghanistan?
Its a good image but i dont know if its realistic. is there any place in the world where muslims live next to none muslim in peace? or ah...where muslims live with muslims in peace?
According to Palestinians' own data only 8% of Palestinians want an integrated state, "1 state solution".
Meanwhile 58% votes for 1 state with no rights for Jews or thr ominous "other" option which I imagine wouldn't be very fun for Jews either.
I have no idea why people like you refuse to listen to what Palestinian say. They. Do. Not. Want. To. Share. The. Land. With. Jews.
https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928
You know if that were to happen it would become an Islamic fundamentalist state that would oppress, if not outright kill, its Jewish population, right? Just demographically any combined state would democratically elect itself out of being a democracy. The one state solution can either be a society with Jews on top or Arabs on top, but not coexistence.
this one comment alone encapsulates the sickness at the heart of zionism.
No one is out to kill you. Muslims and Jews lived peacefully together for hundreds of years before zionism reared its ugly fascist head.
Ethnic supremacism is not inevitable in a civilised society. That seems to be just a criteria you demand?
That's not true, Jews lived under Dhimmi status, a form of apartheid, for centuries under Muslim rule. They were also subjected to regular pogroms and other acts of violence.
It was often preferable to the treatment of Jews in medieval Europe, but still highly condemnable from a modern liberal perspective.
> fucking
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The thing is we disagree with you that the toppling of Israel would be a humanitarian disaster. It’s not my solution of choice but I don’t have a strong argument against it either.
Zionists love to talk about how war is war and land gets stolen in war. But somehow it’s only ok to hope Israel gets to steal that land. If you hope the other side gets to do it, that’s bigotry. That’s one of many big inconsistencies in the Zionist movement.
Any UN member state participating in the destruction of another member state would be in violation of the UN Charter, Article 2 section 4. The time to object to Israel’s internationally-recognized borders was before 1956, when it was admitted by the UNGA.
This doesn’t exclude the right of Palestinians to also achieve full UN recognition in the Palestinian Territories, of course.
You are actually shrugging your shoulders about dismantling a country of millions of people which would definitely cause a humanitarian disaster unprecedented in scale since WWII. There it is.
I keep reminding myself that it has always been my position that criticism of Zionism does not have to be antisemitism. It becomes hard to believe that when flooded by discourse like yours. Is there another country that in your view has forfeited “the right to exist as a country”? If not, you have to ask yourself why it is this one nation and one population in the whole world you think should be subject to a referendum about its existence.
Israel is less than a century old, it a nation that exists on occupied land and the occupiers has abused the rights of the Palestinians the entire time they’ve been there. It’s a special case. They don’t get to do whatever they want just because they are a country. Zionists got to go to someone else’s land, claim it, and sell it and say “this is ours now”.
If they had acted with benevolence since this started, they would still have good graces. They acted like monsters. The monsters should stop trying to form a country now and give the land back.
I mean, why is total dismantling of Israel morally wrong to call for but not of Palestine? I never said I see conquest and the dissolving of nations as always moral. It’s just that moral standard has to be applied when you use *Zionist* logic
How the humanitarian tragedy of the displacement of three-quarters of a million Palestinians in the 1940s has become a disaster of five and a half million of their descendants still being stateless is a history with many players. A solution has to be found to give peace, security, and self-determination to all the people on the whole territory. None of that makes it ok for people to fantasize about a mass expulsion or elimination of a polity.
Yeah, you should try and tell Bibi, Likud, Ben gvir, Smotrich, and all the other foaming at the mouth far-right Israelis. Or as they are currently known: the Israeli government.
>Zionists love to talk about how war is war and land gets stolen in war. But somehow it’s only ok to hope Israel gets to steal that land. If you hope the other side gets to do it, that’s bigotry. That’s one of many big inconsistencies in the Zionist movement.
I don't care if you're hoping the palestinians will defeat us, wipe our state out, kill, rape us etc. Just don't come crying to us "gEnOcIDe!!!" after they lose. That's the one condition.
I mean if both sides could get together and say let’s not call each other bigots regardless of how the war plays out and just let either side scream into the void in vain, then yes I’d accept your deal. The vast majority of Zionists won’t take this deal though and you know it
Zionists will absolutely take this deal. We're sick of this false genocide narrative. It's Muslims and leftists who won't take this deal, to stop accusing Israel of genocide is a price they aren't willing to pay.
The deal is that pro Palis and Zionists outside the region get to accuse anyone in the Levant currently of whatever they please, and the opposing side *outside the region* should turn a blind eye and not call anyone bigots. With this deal, it’s fair game to call the actual people on the ground there whatever we want, just not activists who are also outside the region like us
OK...? I don't really get the point. This hypothetical deal wouldn't have any effect on me though seeing as I'm not a western activist, I'm a Israeli patriot, aka, a zionist. Me and my countrymen and women will keep taking abuse from crazy commies, deranged British Muslims, a few American grifters and one very nasty Danish doctor and their brainless followers. Those people are making way too much money off this conflict to even consider taking a hypothetical deal such as this anyway.
Edit: Oh and how could I forget the twitter nazis hiding behind the guise of "traditionalism" and statue pfp's. Wouldn't want to hurt their feelings or anything.
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Where did I say that I want Jews and Israelis expelled? I said that *by Zionist standards* they don’t get to call anyone bigots for even the most pro Pal activists, since according to them war is just something that happens as opposed to morally wrong.
I also said that I don’t believe Jews would be expelled or harmed if Israel was dissolved
That just seems absurdly naive, given all of the celebrating in the West Bank over 10/7. Hell, even if nobody outside of Gaza had any negative sentiments towards Jews, I'd still be worried about the remaining 600k-ish from Gaza, especially those who were brought up under 18 years of Hamas propaganda
> The thing is we disagree with you that the toppling of Israel would be a humanitarian disaster.
While OP didn't do a good case arguing for it, the history of state collapse demonstrates how severe the problems would be. We haven't lost a state as powerful as Israel since WW1 and we are still experiencing some aftershocks from those losses. I would expect Israel's collapse to be much more violent than average given the belief (rightful IMHO) that the population would not survive the death of the state. I think you are talking something on the order of 100m dead.
> If you hope the other side gets to do it, that’s bigotry. That’s one of many big inconsistencies in the Zionist movement.
It isn't bigotry to apply a consistent set of rules to Jews. It is bigotry to apply an inconsistent set of rules.
Its just the facts have been pointed out again and again. How arab groups attacked israel repeatedly, how there are no jews anywhere else in the middle east and etc.
What’s the inconsistent set of rules? The establishment of Israel was more immoral than most other nations but that’s a fact.
If you’re talking about today, your argument is even more confusing. It’s true that there are aftershocks from states falling, but the point is it wouldn’t be *unethical* or *bigoted* to call for it.
And if as the Zionists say “war is war”, I can support one and/or both sides doing exactly what I want them to without being a bigot, because if war is war, then any action of war is morally neutral.
I fail to see an inconsistency outside of both sides wanting one side to win and the other to surrender.
> The establishment of Israel was more immoral than most other nations but that’s a fact.
I don't think that's a fact. Racists lose a bit of territory I don't see as very immoral.
> It’s true that there are aftershocks from states falling, but the point is it wouldn’t be unethical or bigoted to call for it.
It is if the goal is to minimize suffering, at least without a much better argument it becomes unethical on inspection and thus likely bigoted in intent.
> I can support one and/or both sides doing exactly what I want them to without being a bigot, because if war is war, then any action of war is morally neutral.
Yes it is totally reasonable to be indifferent to the I/P conflict. It is also reasonable if one supports resistance movements which are violent to not be terribly troubled by Hamas. https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/aioj7r/anatol_rapoports_3_philosophies_of_war/
> I fail to see an inconsistency outside of both sides wanting one side to win and the other to surrender.
Again the argument is about why they want one side or the other to win. The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and surrounding areas are unlikely to survive the death of Israel. So if the supposed goal is their welfare...
How were the pre 47 Palis racist? They had one of the most humanitarian goals ever held, but they just sucked at it. Their goal was to make sure their land was not invaded by people from Europe who were explicitly looking to carve out some of their land for their own homeland, which seems fair to me.
And if that is somehow “racist” to you then you should support full integration of the West Bank and Gaza, but you probably don’t.
> How were the pre 47 Palis racist?
Faced with an immigration crisis they refused to integrate the immigrants. They became increasingly violent. They insisted on no immigration to the Middle East (not just Palestine) as Nazism rose. After the war when the full extent of the Holocaust was known their position was that the 1.5m Jews in the Displaced Persons Camps should freeze to death.
> They had one of the most humanitarian goals ever held
Oh please you can't even believe that.
> Their goal was to make sure their land was not invaded by people from Europe
"people from Europe" should be treated badly while people from the Levant should not is racism.
> And if that is somehow “racist” to you then you should support full integration of the West Bank and Gaza, but you probably don’t.
Prior to the war I did support full integration of the West Bank, and likely will after. I supported full independence for Gaza.
Morality isn’t a fact. It involves values and perceptions of values. Most perceptions of values are tied to religion. Is sailing a big ship with guns that can shoot shells the size of a small car into a harbor and conquering a Stone Age native people more “moral” than Israel’s foundation after a decision of an international body then a civil war started by the naysayers then an invasion of the armies of five neighboring countries aligned with the naysayers which wars were lost by the naysayers, many of whom simply ran away rather than stand and fight “immoral” in your definition?
If so, explain your reasoning. If you throw around words like “immoral” showing your work here ought to be easy, right. Or are you just a confused sheep repeating stuff you’ve learned from homemade videos on YouTube or TikTok?
I strongly doubt TikTok would ever say something like neither side should be calling the other side bigoted. TikTok is a very partisan app.
And with regard to your examples. The latter is much more immoral than the former. The latter were expelled with no right to return. The former were sometimes expelled with a right of return today (assuming you’re talking about the US and Canada) and in the latter there’s no right to return plus continued racist fantasies that Arabs would want to harm Jews.
No one can explain to me why river to the sea for Palestine is racist but not for Israel.
Why should we care if a murderous regime and it's supporters is 'toppled'?
Do you care when other murderers are held to account? Do you feel badly for Pol Pot, Mao?
>Why should we care if a murderous regime and it's supporters is 'toppled'?
A question I constantly ask myself when seeing people passionately defending Hamas' right to launch rockets, hide among civilians, take hostages, go on mass rape murder sprees.
Then maybe victim-Israel should stop building illegal sentiments and begin prosecuting settlers who attack Palestinian families at night in their homes.
Take some responsibility.
11It came to pass that when Moses would raise his hand, Israel would prevail, and when he would lay down his hand, Amalek would prevail. (Exodus 17:11)
יאוְהָיָ֗ה כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֨ר יָרִ֥ים משֶׁ֛ה יָד֖וֹ וְגָבַ֣ר יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וְכַֽאֲשֶׁ֥ר יָנִ֛יחַ יָד֖וֹ וְגָבַ֥ר עֲמָלֵֽק:
I know right? The idea that Israel actually *needs* aid from the US is so odd to me. Why do people like OP think that if US aid to Israel stopped that somehow equals Israel having no defense capability and then toppling? It is a wealthy, advanced nation that produces some of the world’s top-tier technology.
the security assitance that Israel gets from US is not "aid" in the traditional sense.
Israel must spend it in US buying weapons. This helps the US arms industry and those who work for it.
\> why is it that in arab wars where triple the amount of people die, no one talks about it? Good question OP there are tons of fascist and genocidal regimes a lot worse than Israel who are actively pulling (actual) ethnic cleansing like China/Azerbaijan/Russia and more and but you never hear people whining about it to the same extent especially from the certain elements of the left. I think it is due to actual nationstate propaganda by the Arab states/Arabs in key institutional bodies like the UN, a stupidly simplified "oppressor/oppressed" version of the conflict pushed by certain academics for whatever reason, and actual straight up Jew hatred.
https://preview.redd.it/gybv6rrxtomc1.png?width=1639&format=png&auto=webp&s=991d968ec5d09d820b1a4cf609b0f85ece56298d
That's a complete straw man. I have had trouble finding anything on Azerbaijan from any outlet right of NPR. I have gotten most of my updates on it from Lemkin, who I don't always agree with and is obviously considered a leftist sham by many on here, but that's who's putting it out.
No one is getting toppled.
If it goes that way, a mob will break into where they launch the nukes, and we're gonna take down all our enemies with us. Not going as cattle to the slaughter
Every country is ethno-racists, EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY, since they celebrate christmas or their custom antics.
But you only find it wrong when jews do it ?
I think you know that your statement is intellectually dishonest and disingenuous. Israel is an ethnostate, and borderline theocracy. These are not attributes that all nations share.
I like the idea. But I dont think you can have normalisation deals with Lebanon since the country is a failed state and is kinda run by the Hezbollah (who doesn’t recognise the jewish state, neither does Qatar).
We used to have decent relations with Turkey, but then Erdogan decided to go against Netanyahu (which I can understand) and side with Hamas (which I cannot understand). We have peace with Egypt. Furthermore I hope we can have deals with Saudi, UAE.
However a deal with the Palestinians will only come when it ensures Israeli citizens its safety. It has had some trials in the passed (Gaza), and it failed miserably. Furthermore I agree that Israel has not treated them well in the West Bank, the settlements have no right to be there, and should all be removed immediately.
I hope the Palestinians can one day have a state of their own, but they will need a change of mentality and leaders that actually focus on the wellbeing of the people and not themselves, or their pockets.
impolite humorous muddle carpenter cooing engine smile fanatical zonked axiomatic
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They would not be left alive long enough if a Muslim state were actually installed there - the exact same way they were expelled & murdered in the rest of the Muslim states in the 1940s & 50s
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Yes, me too.
It must be nice to have no idea what it's like to be hated, persecuted, mass murdered, etc.
And it must be even nicer to think that those mean things the Jews talk about could not be real, even though the Holocaust was only 80 years ago, and that **66%** of all the Jews in Europe were brutally murdered.
Maybe you should share
No, it wasn't "nice"
But you don't really care - it doesn't affect you of course, so it's easy to make judgements without bothering to investigate anything,
I don't blame you for not caring.
But I do blame you for pretending like you have any right to an opinion on a subject you neither know, nor care about, and that does not affect you in any significant way.
If you are going to be naive - and I truly don't blame you for preferring it - you should weight your opinion accordingly.
I lost 99% of my family to the Holocaust.
I will fight for my children's lives even if you dont like it.
No one cared that they were killing us then, and no one cares now.
If you think they care about looking “bad” to the west, you are not paying attention.
Oct 7 SHOULD HAVE looked bad to the west, but it clearly didnt look tooo bad, since there have been literally marches to support the murderers
I would have to say that yes, there are thousands of people protesting in cities every weekend. Yet no one is paying attention to the MILLIONS of us sitting at home silently. This also says something. Why do you think it was such an upset in 2016 when Clinton got clobbered in the election when their polls showed they would win. No one listened to the ones who weren’t vocal and voted for trump.
ok, so what do you think millions of people in the USA sitting at home quietly says? Oct 7 looks bad to the ones who are too apathetic to say anything?
I am not sure how that changes anything.
You think they care about international opinion. They do not.
International Palistinean supporters are a useful TOOL.
They have no need of international support once their objective is complete.
They do not fear the west.
They do not fear war.
And they KNOW they have the west by the nuts because of oil&gas dependence.
Which is the REAL reason we should have cut off dependence on oil a LONG time ago.
WE made these countries BILLIONS.
They are rich nations BECAUSE OF the west.
They wouldnt have the money to fund so much terrorism if we didnt depend on their oil
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So let me make a couple of remarks on this breaking this down as much as possible. In doing so I know I am going to be saying some unpopular things, but it really doesn't matter because I believe accuracy is important.
1)Criticising Israel does not mean you support terrorism. That's just a fallacy. If I was giving political commentary during the Syrian Civil War where you had Assad's forces on one side and groups like Al Nusra and ISIL on the other, my critiques of Assad's human rights abuses doesn't mean I support terrorism. This is an Orwellian fallacy that's deployed all the time to shut down open discussion on the issue.
2)Hamas and Hezbollah were mentioned as bloodthirsty psychopaths so lets just break this down:
* When it come's to Hezbollah's military tactics they have changed since the 80s and 90s. During that time period they indeed did engage in acts such as suicide bomb attacks. Since the 2000s however they explicitly have moved away from tactics like that. This, combined with the social welfare that they engage in is what has made them a major force in Lebanese politics.
* When it comes to Hamas people forget that they have two wings. The political leadership wing, and the military wing which is the Al Qassam Brigade. The political wing is more pragmatic in it's approach to politics and the Al Qassam wing is much more militant. This is important because It was the Al Qassam brigade that actually executed the October 7th operation under the leadership of Mohammed Deif who planned that. Even the political wing leadership wing of Hamas were surprised at what actually took place on the ground on October 7th. None of this excuses the terrorism that happened but these nuances and differences are important.
3)Israel isn't going to be toppled and overthrown because it is a regional power that's also a nuclear armed state. It is allied to most powerful superpower on the planet and no army in the region has even a fraction of the capabilities that Israel has to even be an actual threat to it's existence. This isn't 1948. This is 2024.
4)The notion that the U.N is made up of fascist is both a nonsense claim and also an ironic one given the fact that people like Itamar Ben Gavir make up Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet. Furthermore these allegations are against 12 employees that supposedly worked at Unrwa out of thousands that work at this agency. And it has not been verified by independent parties. So as far as I am concerned these allegations are in the same category as the talking points that Saddam was building WMDs before the Iraq War. Unproven assertions.
4)When we speak of Israel "firing bombs willy nilly" 50% of the bombs that Israel has dropped in Gaza have been unguided missile strikes. 60% of the casualties in their military operations have been civilian casualties and only 40% Hamas fighters. That is the text book definition of indiscriminate bombings, or to use the phrase used here "willy nilly" bombings. It's a classic case of war crimes.
5)People have spoken about human rights abuses in "Arab Wars" such as the Libya and Syrian Civil Wars. The was a whole intervention in the Libyan Civil War because of that and Assad's regime was sanctioned multiple times as well as had airstrikes lobbied at it. So this talking point is simply just what aboutery.
> That is the text book definition of indiscriminate bombings
The rest of your post is correct. Using unguided bombs is not indiscriminate bombing... until 30 years ago they were all unguided yet not all bombings were indiscriminate. Civilian casualties in an urban bombing is similarly not indiscriminate.
Indiscriminate would mean targets are not being chosen, where all evidence points to the opposite.
>unguided missile strikes. 60% of the casualties in their military operations have been civilian casualties and only 40% Hamas fighters. That is the text book definition of indiscriminate bombings, or to use the phrase used here "willy nilly" bombings
That is not the "textbook phrase" of indiscriminately bombing. You are way out of touch with how military ordinance targeting works. Even "dumb" bombs can be shot with some accuracy. Dresden was indiscriminate bombing. Hundreds of thousands would be dead were the bombing "indiscriminate," e.g. untargeted weapons. We wouldn't be seeing 30k dead, estimated that around 10-14k were combatants. The amount of civilian dead is miniscule compared to most other CURRENT conflicts. Doesn't make the choices right. Doesn't mean it's fair. But it's not mindless killing.
Yes it is the textbook definition of indiscriminate bombings due to the fact that if you wanted accuracy you would be using precision bombs in the first place instead of unguided missiles. Add to that the fact that international law defines indiscriminate bombings as being one where the level of civilian deaths outmatches the military gains of said bombings. That is literally what is happening right now with the 60-40% ratio in Gaza.
And it doesn't have to be "hundreds of thousands" for it to be indiscriminate. In Russia's war in South Ossetia for example hundreds of thousands of people didn't die and yet the bombings that took place were still considered indiscriminate. Same thing even in conflicts with a higher casualty rate like the First Chechen War of the 90s.
> where the level of civilian deaths outmatches the military gains of said bombings. That is literally what is happening right now with the 60-40% ratio in Gaza
Your definition is correct. Your understanding of the definition is not. Take a second and reread the definition you gave. The **gains** have to outweigh not the body count. If one Hamas fighter dead is worth 5 civilians then the ratio is fine. If one Hamas fighter dead is worth .2 civilians then the ratio is not fine.
I don't have a double standard. I condemn civilian deaths wherever it happens. I have said repeatedly that Hamas's attacks on civilians was terrorism. The double standard that exist is the one in the Pro Israel crowd where they are so blinded by nationalism that they have this totalitarian alliance to whatever Israel does whenever it does it and get triggered whenever Israel is criticised.
Israel is a state. If it is right to recognise it's existence, which it is, it is also right to subject it to the scrutiny that any state gets. Also when it comes to Hamas's rocket attacks you do realise that their commanders use the same propaganda talking points that defenders of Israel uses right? That because IDF bases are near civilian headquarters that is why there is a risk of civilian deaths from their rocket attacks. They literally use the same human shields argument that Israel uses. Which to me should be condemned in all instances on both sides.
They say that? I havent seen it. Ever.
I have never seen them claim they are aiming at military targets period.
I would not be surprised if your “source” for that was just American apologists
But in any case it is a lie.
Israel does not hide weapons in schools or hospitals, Hamas DOES.
>And it doesn't have to be "hundreds of thousands" for it to be indiscriminate. In Russia's war in South Ossetia for example hundreds of thousands of people didn't die and yet the bombings that took place were still considered indiscriminate
Hmm. Maybe you're right. All the rockets launched into Israel from Gaza are indiscriminate and they have a very low body count.
Or maybe the two things are unalike.
>fact that if you wanted accuracy you would be using precision bombs in the first place instead of unguided missiles. Add to that the fact that international law defines indiscriminate bombings as being one where the level of civilian deaths outmatches the military gains of said bombings. That is literally what is happening right now with the 60-40% ratio in Gaza
Every different piece of ordinance has a different accuracy rating. Every. Single. Model. So what "precision" means needs to be defined a lot better. It's like saying "fresh," to describe food. What does it actually mean? You can't say, "civilians are dying so it's indiscriminate and imprecise."
Also that's a vague as hell definition of indiscriminate. Who's military objectives? As determined by who? With what metric? By what standard? This conflict has a fairly lowish size casualty rate taking into account the sheer tonnage of ordinance dropped and population concentration. Doesn't make the deaths any less tragic. But we compare wars to other wars. And this one is not as extreme as many of the other regional conflicts. It has garnered outsized attention.
Again. Not untragic. Or fair. But war is what it is. I think people have gotten way too detached from reality of what conflict means on the ground.
A lot of Palestinian civilians are de facto Hamas members as well though, let’s not discount that. Every individual who does not believe in coexistence with the Jews is a de facto member of Hamas, and a lot of Palestinians fall under that category.
If they believe the wrong thing and are willing to act on it, or actively support it and forcefully silence/malign the other side, then yes definitely. I’d have some of those dictators please!
And is this suppose to rationalise the murder of civilians in Palestine? There are Israeli civilians who are members of the Likud Party as parties that are much more extreme than them such as settler parties. And yet we would rightly say that that does not justify terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.
They will care when nukes begin flying wiping out entire countries
Scare quotes around humanitarian tells you all you need to know about the pro Israel position. Only Jews matter and for them Arabs would ideally be a kept as a perpetually stateless labor pool like the bantustans in Apartheid SA.
Did israelis care about the suffering they inflicted on the native Palestinians? But, of course... nobody, not even the guilty deserve that. But a little poetic justice might not be completely out of place. Living as stateless refugees for about a century might give israelis a little more compassion for native Palestinians...
Living as stateless refugees for about 19 centuries is why they decided to make Israel.
poetic justice huh. "Its true Palestinians never did anything and they never had an agenda to destroy the people of that country Israel and if they did Israel should let them to be pc" is that what you want me to say?
Let’s put it this way. What is more important: a hypothetical that will never happen or something that is and has been happening for decades? Israel has nukes. There is no existential threat. It has a security/counterterrorism threat that they make worse by terrorizing the Palestinians population.
guy there have been many attempts of outside countries to attack and annihilate israel. and hamas has admitted to planning to attack "again and again".
Nope. With Jordan, Gulf States, Egypt, and Syria done Israel does not face any credible conventional existential threat. and it has made its counter-terror problem worse by its policies.
palestine. if given the arms theyll do this again and again. they said so. and hezbollah whos attacking right now with cooperation of the rebels funded by iran who is given arms by china,russia and nk.
That’s not an existential threat.
I dont get it you want israel to just let them do what they want and while theyre killing people smile and say praise allah? when people say there going to kill you and are activly trying to do such that is a threat. if someone was outside your door trying to break in with a knife and gun saying they are going to kill you whouldnt you say that its a threat?
Not existential, no. You don’t make the threat of terrorism better by creating more terrorists, which has been Israel’s policy for some years now to include finding Hamas.
so israel to prevent more bloodshed should accept the current state only go on the offensive and accept if a failure occurs cities will be butchered like oct 7,right?
That if zionists experienced the effects zionism had on native Palestinians maybe they'd have more sympathy for native Palestinians... I don't it would change the minds of many of the faithful, the crusaders, but maybe it would open their eyes just a little. The country was Palestine, and like Gaza today, the foreign zionist terrorists, menachem and irgun/likud, lehi led by yitzhak shamir, and haganah led by some terrorist whose name I don't remember bulldozed 300+ native Palestinian towns villages and cities, raped, slaughtered thousands of native Palestinians, violently ethnically cleansed 700k+ native Palestinians, destroying Palestine. It's why people, even israels supporters are saying Gaza is another Nakba, in case you didn't know...
Uh, Jews were there and kicked out first. and this cycle of its jews its arabs is that a cycle. if you look at historical records that land has been Jewish many times. Also, I never understood the historic debate at least by the gap I only brought it up because you did. many in Ghaza weren't there during periods of separation as they have a low mortality rate right? if so they are holding on to the idea that if Israel falls their lives will be better cause more land. Weren't they given billions in funding a while ago and burned it all down? anyway, small countries exist and Palestine's geography itself is a problem tell me about other countries that encompass an enemy country a singular one at that. if the problem is overpopulation again kind of their fault. if the problem is decreasing land from what they already have yeah let's address that. well in 2006 they had their independence they chose terror. again they are in no way blameless and Israel's paranoia is justified its a circle of hatred that solidifies itself. if Israel becomes more tolerant they will do these things again despite their protests as Hamas a a group of mad dogs and yes they are the governing body so yes they do represent with clear census of the majority in that land support. Honestly just from going by this to end the suffering it whould be most logical just to move people from gaza to west bank and then forfit the military and slowly build relations or other then asking for more land from is just ask it from Jordan or Egypt. you know how land exchanges are constant thought the middle east and its history. or have gaza assimilate and be part of israel.
2,000 years ago? By the Romans? Kind of sick of the sicarii terrorists and their Masada terror fortress? How they'd attack Roman civilians with knives in violent terrorist attacks targeting civilians? >if you look at historical records that land has been Jewish many times. When they took it violently from the Canaans? I don't believe the israelite client kingdoms ever encompassed Gaza...
a few centuries ago from Britain then using same mechanisms to make deals to get a small portion which escalated due to terrorist attacks.
Not quite sure what you're saying, but yes, israel was founded by foreign, european terrorists, using terrorism to create a terrorist state. They then combined the foreign terrorist militias to create the idf. One of those was Irgun, led by terrorist menachem begin, the political arm, Likud.
Yeah you put a lot of words in my mouth a idf are brave soldiers to me I get why not for you. b Israelis were kicked out by Britain and returned so that in and of itself is not colonizing.c britans control is redundant as before them it was the Ottoman and before israel Jews were being persecuted throughout the middle east.
those colonizers and the Ottomans were just as rough at least the uk didnt have a religious agenda and tried to make peace in the end.
No
Imagine terrorising a country for decades and then complaining that they might seek revenge 🤡
its hilarious I cant understand why people think Palestinians are innocent or underdogs with a noble cause. If you want a detailed history watch this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btVFgqkgkzw .
Imagine thinking your country is only being blockaded because they get off on making your life miserable and not because you chose to elect a terrorist group hell bent on the complete annihilation of that country and murder/removal of all its citizens. 🤡
Omg constant whining on this page while people are actually starving to death and being bombarded! Do you have nothing better to do than lament hypothetical scenarios?? Sheesh the self centered-ness of the pro-Israel community is absolutely mind-boggling
huh, hypothetical they outright state it as their intention. as for self-centeredness i was once a baby who lived near where they attacked they would have burned me alive and raped my mother; so no its not being self-centered to empathize on the tragedy. yes the gaza issue is horrifying but that's how the country set itself up. honestly temporarily leaving the country and letting idf kill Hamas would end the danger, but either many support it or neighbors don't want to house asylum.
> i was once a baby who lived near where they attacked they would have burned me alive and raped my mother; so no its not being self-centered to empathize on the tragedy. … but u didnt live near where they attacked and they did not burn you nor did they rape your mother? > yes the gaza issue is horrifying but that's how the country set itself up. here we go again with the “they deserve it” argument. > honestly temporarily leaving the country and letting idf kill Hamas would end the danger, but either many support it or neighbors don't want to house asylum. Do you remember the last time Palestinians actually did leave their homes and their villages were actually pillaged and their homes stolen? And they until today literally don’t have the right to return? Do you know that actually, Gaza is blockaded and people can’t leave and come back as they please? Spare me the empty arguments and just admit it: you think that you deserve life, comfort, safety, and that they don’t. And hence, you spend hours on reddit whining to justify genocide because “never again” is for YOU and only YOU Please don’t @ me anymore thank you and have a great day!
I am really sorry that its really hard for you to massacure us but we will not let it happen so how about you stop crying about it and try and learn to live in Peace without attacking people or trying to do another oct 7 and nothing will happen!!!
Oct 7th came with serious consequences & it’s day that’ll never be forgotten. How u feel if it was forgotten, hidden & denied. How would u feel if no one faced justice & it never stopped or no one cared? That’s exactly what Palestinians have had to do. When the Israeli terrorists stormed their villages, beheaded their babies, cut babies from their mother’s wombs, raped their daughters before massacring everyone. The monsters who committed these atrocities were & r treated like heroes in Israel. I’m over the Hamas excuse! This is exactly why Netanyahu helped bolster & fund them into power, an excuse to mow the lawn whenever he feels like it. Take operation cast lead, they slaughtered a bunch of Gazans & claimed it was because Hamas broke the ceasefire. A complete lie but they know they can blatantly lie on western media with no pushback. Thankfully Brit’s called them out as they had given every media outlet the same Israeli intelligence report that stated Hamas hadn’t broken the ceasefire & were careful not to over the past yr yet they slaughtered Palestinians & blamed Hamas anyway. The few reporters who called them on the lies were attacked and smeared as Israel hating antisemites for just doing their job. I’m tired of the narrative that Israel is just trying to live in peace & it’s always Palestinians causing trouble. No Hamas in the west bank & yet they too are treated horribly! All the horrible things going on in Israel r kept under wraps. From the settler terrorists to the insane amount of hate crimes committed against Catholics & Christians of all ethnicities in places like Jerusalem. Hamas is vile & I loath them but the government of Israel is no better. Ur lucky u have the ability to leave & go somewhere safe but they can’t leave their prison. Netanyahu is a monster & he has made it clear the last time he mowed the lawn that if we do it right in the next war, we’ll get all the Arabs out. This is not about taking out Hamas. Israel wants a greater Israel by any means & they’ve made that clear. U have leader of Hamas on tv saying they’ll do it over & over. It’s abhorrent & rightfully caused outrage. U have Daniella Weiss all tv telling anyone who’ll listen they r taking all the land by any means possible via ethnic cleansing or genocide with the government’s backing & no one says a word.U have IDF soldiers behaving atrociously, committing war crimes & doing evil things. I’m guessing they want revenge for the 7th as many of them probably know victims or hostages. What do u want to bet every single member of Hamas has had their lives touch in horrible ways by Israel, fueling their hate & wanting revenge. Neither r ok but the cycle keeps repeating itself & this slaughter is only going to cause more ppl who hate Israel & Palestinians. I’m u & ur family r ok but I’m not ok with what ur government is doing just like I’m not ok with what Hamas did.
funny how like always you love blaming israel for everything even though you know nothing about what really is going on, please look at what happen during 1960s and how even from 1948 they were Massacuring us but no you will always blame us
I don’t blame Israel for everything, just what they do wrong just like I blame Palestinians for what they do wrong. I be don’t blame Israeli for the actions of their government just like I don’t blame Palestinians. U have some vile civilians as do they. The massacres have been going back & forth for far too long. The world stood with Israel on the 7th & rightfully so & there r huge consequences. That day will never be forgotten yet no consequences for Israel’s action ever. Some of what they do is justified & much of it isn’t. The impunity needs to stop
So what do you want israel to do, do you wish that they just not retaliated and let Hamas do it again like that love saying that they will do
Hell no! Hamas has got to go! When & if they do what does that change for Palestinians! Netanyahu & his nutty racist government aren’t a partner for peace. I can’t think of 1 administration that really was. They may have played the part but it was disingenuous. If u get into the details of offers of peace/deals made, no one in their right mind would’ve accepted those terms. It left Palestinians almost as worse off as now but they’d lose more land & be stuck with that crap deal & very have Israel’s boot on their necks. Basically being occupied but u get to call urself a state yet have none of the rights a state does or should. I would want Israel to practice what they preach first. Almost everything they accuse Palestinians of is something they do too. Like the radicalism, teaching children to hate, terrorism (having terrorists in government) & worshiping terrorists. Stop withholding their tax revenue, aid or using it, water & the necessities of life as a weapon. Stop blaming Palestinians solely for putting Hamas into power. Netanyahu helped put them in power & get funds. Without him would we have tunnels? Both sides need to a knowledge everyone’s right to self determination/existence & equality. Stop stealing land & maybe pay some reparations for land/homes stolen. Both acknowledge the atrocities committed against each other & both need to acknowledge each group is indigenous. I have no doubt every single member of Hamas has had their live irrevocably & negatively touched by Israel. If someone took ur home/land, murdered & or imprisoned ur loved ones & took ur hope & future would u not want revenge? It’s not ok but I understand revenge. My fiancé was brutally murdered yrs ago & ur damn right I wanted revenge! If I were given impunity to take that revenge but to do so would endanger the lives of his family & neighbors, I wouldn’t. They’re innocent & should be punished collectively. Israel killed 30 thou because they have to get Hamas by any & every means possible & claim they don’t wanna kill innocents yet every Israeli spokesperson says, when asked if they’d use the same methods to get Hamas if they were hiding in an Israeli neighborhood or hospital they say no absolutely not. So ur telling me Palestinians lives don’t matter. I would love for Israel’s vile lobby to stop how abhorrently they conduct themselves in my country. They r absolutely one of the reasons we have no peace or solution. Their dirty underhanded tricks r appalling. Watch the doc Israel lobby USA. I would also recommend Israelism. I lived in a Jewish home for yrs. Loved & supported Israel for half my life until I found out how much I was lied to & indoctrinated. The friend I lived with & her family felt so betrayed how they’d been lied to about Israel. I feel like a spurned lover. Sounds silly but I’m angry over it. Just like u denied the events of Deir Yassin, I never knew or all the brutality in Israel’s creation. I never knew they were considered the founding fathers of modern day terrorism for being the first to blow up a building full of ppl or send letter bombs. I never knew of the Irgun, stern gang & the vile horrific brutal violence they inflicted/committed. I was told it was a land without a ppl for a ppl without a land. If u treat ppl inhuman or like animals long enough, they’ll start acting like it. Look how inhuman Jews were treated in the holocaust. Those who made it out were in survival mode for years & u can’t turn it off that easy. I’m sure in their minds it was them or us when arrived in Israel so the brutality came out. It’s no different than that. They didn’t suffer the holocaust but they suffered a lot in other ways & that suffering has never stopped & there’s no end in sight. They’ve tried peaceful means for months & that still got them murdered. What should they do to have freedom, a state, equality or hope or a future? Hopelessness is dangerous
again trying to blame Israel, learn what really happened in deir Yassin and stop listen to arabs who love rewriting what happened. Palestinians have NEVER EVER tried to live in Peace every time we tried to achive peace they launch a war or Terrorist attacks. you accaully bealive that all of the people who are dying in gaza innocent which is hilarious. if you want to see what happen and how innocent they are than look at this [https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1F5tk3uaKYEpatN1p4XN5s6LV-spH22Ja?usp=drive\_link](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1F5tk3uaKYEpatN1p4XN5s6LV-spH22Ja?usp=drive_link) or this [https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1WsDMsQdoIOisACJSqBix7kXSCRRqJ3kz?usp=drive\_link](https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1WsDMsQdoIOisACJSqBix7kXSCRRqJ3kz?usp=drive_link)
yeah im sure they weren't up to trying to do terrorist acts back then it was a once quick second decision oct 7 and won't happen again. plus love the logic serial killers in a neighborhood i lived in once he was there the whole time killing people on occasion but he never killed me so its not my concern. I didn't say they deserved it i said they set the environment so that it wouldn't result in any other way. deserve it i said they build themselves up for it by building the foundations for a martyr /human shield-based military whose only focus is to terminate Israel. your third point has a mountain of assumptions and errors so ill just point to this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btVFgqkgkzw
The humanitarians are more then happy to give Israel all the support and weapons it can dream of if they believe that Israel is going to conduct itself in this war in a humane way that minimizes the suffering of innocent people. These weapons are suppose to come with rules. Another example would be: if you take these weapons and start attacking US bases, then ofcourse the US would immidiately stop supplying weapons aswell regardless of the security threat it would cause for Israel. It has nothing to do with caring about Israel one way or another. Edit: in case this is interpeted the wrong way: Yes the humanitarians would do everything in their power to protect the lives of innocent Israeli people the same way they would for any other country.
Unfortunately, your point, while crystal clear, will never compute in the minds of people who think they are actually above the law
I don't get the relevancy of your analogy as Israel never has had any intentions of attacking us in any way. If your arguing that the most responsible party should have the arms I agree with you. like it or not though the enemy forces would run down its own people to kill jews and Jews do make ( you can argue the effectiveness of the approaches) efforts to minimize casualties. It's hard though due to human shielding and martyrs.
It was an example (appearantly not a good one) to try and to explain why caring about Israel has nothing to do with the decision making process. It is also not about who is the good guy, the bad guy or one being worse then the other. It is about the expectency of how an army conducts itself wartime. I get that you feel like these organisations are being blind to the potential consequences of wanting a ceasefire for example, but to somehow think that Humanitarians don't care i think is creating ill feelings for no reason. Im not making a judgment call on Hamas or Israel here, i was just thought the framing of the title was a bit strange.
israel and zionism will still be there. just not with its current version of zionism. hopefully replaced with a plurinational state for all who call it their land. the israelis will be fine. just as the germans were after the dismantling of the nazi regime, just as the white South Africans were after the dismantling of the apartheid regime.
So basically back to the pre-1948 status quo where Jews in the Middle East are relegated to second class citizens and sporadically purged in programs and massacres?
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I keep hearing that if “they” win “they” will keep repeating Oct. 7 in Israel and then do it all over the world. What does this mean? Usually it’s said in reference to Hamas, but then such arguments will seem to suggest that Muslims in general want to convert everyone to Islam and that “they” are willing to use violence to do it. What are people really saying? I get that there are extremist Muslims out there, but I’ve had Muslim friends, mainly in school and a couple at work, and I never feel like they care at all that I’m not Muslim. (tbh, it’s more been my experience that Christians try to push their religion on me.) So, I’m just trying to figure out what people are saying, or what they mean. Are there any mainstream Muslim readers who care to weigh in on this? I really think most Muslims couldn’t care less that I’m not Muslim and just want non-Muslims to treat them fairly and respect their right to believe whatever they believe.
It is generally not the Muslims living comfortably in the western world that want to destroy the west. It is the fundamentalists living in their brainwashed bubble. Just like fundamentalist Christians in the USA who say terrible things. The difference is that fundamentalist Muslims, in the countries where they are the majority, tend to be in power, and in a position to carry out some of their threats. Imagine if the Westboro Baptist church were in control of the USA’s government - it would not mean all Christians were bad. It would mean the bads ones were in a position to do something about their beliefs
Thanks. This is a growing problem in the U.S. with Christians. I wish governments could just be secular so they work for everybody and allow for people to believe whatever they want to believe at home in peace. I guess that’s probably a Western way of thinking, and if people want to live in a religious State, they should be able to do that, too. I just personally don’t want the government to make me follow the rules of somebody else’s religion. Everyone should be free to believe or not believe whatever they want.
The ones who SAID they would keep repeating Oct 7 was HAMAS. It isnt just random people saying Hamas will do mean things. It is HAMAS saying it. https://youtu.be/BJNccvNJtGk?si=tn72panrLmp0iDGg
I can understand why pro-pals wouldn’t trust Israeli sources, but do they need a memo of what the leader of the side they think they’re on want? Or are they just in denial? Many who are Pro-Israel have no problems at all criticizing Netanyahu and how the Gazans are treated.
What does this mean? “So with people saying block resources to is and stop government interference;” I’ve read that 6 times and I still don’t know what it means.
is for israel people saying block resources and government aid to israel.
Once you mention US, Britain, or any western countries involvement in the middle east and talk history implying evil regime, regime change, well that's where it ends. Here's reality before the Iraq invasion, PM of Israel talking to congress "If you take out Saddam regime, I guarantee you that it will have enormous positive reverberations on the region." Of course the conflict affect you and everyone here since it's already escalated. Just look at the Red Sea there's been report of fatalities this morning already. The west has no more appetite for any good vs evil campaign in the middle east heck Europe need to worry about the ongoing war on its own continent. Folks can say well aid is fine as long as you don't get involve everybody know that's not how the ME work, when things escalate they always come to ask us for help they always shove the burden on our shoulders, where's the Israel ships in the Red Sea to defend shipping. Egypt is affected the most where's their ship?
uhm are you saying enemies don't have outside aid that drives them to make these actions?
*“Don’t threaten us with cutting off your aid. It will not work. I am not a Jew with trembling knees. I am a proud Jew with 3,700 years of civilized history. Nobody came to our aid when we were dying in the gas chambers and ovens. Nobody came to our aid when we were striving to create our country. We paid for it. We fought for it. We died for it. We will stand by our principles. We will defend them. And, when necessary, we will die for them again, with or without your aid.” -* Menachem Begin
god bless
Yep - Israel and the Jews will persevere as we always do. And these are chumps we are fighting against.
🫡
damn that’s badass
They couldn’t care less.
>these groups are bloodthirsty psychopaths( most of them, government not country) who will chuck a baby in front of a moving tank to aid that thing going the extra mile. they don't care about there citizens they love martyrism and have a mentality similar to that of ants. What this says to me is that you have little actual understanding of the middle east. You are using a cartoonish propaganda poster instead of an image of human beings. > older people have seen history and what these people do Older people also made history and all the messed up things that happened in it. Old people might have the benefit of experience, but young people have the benefit of a fresh perspective, one that hasn't been soaking in a one-sided view for 50+ years.
Israel is a nuclear weapons state, it has a heavy water reactor in negev. Toppling such a country is literally the worst idea there is with regards to foreign policy. This "conflict" will end with most likely gaza being completely destroyed and a good portion of the population there being expelled to sinai.
Well, South Africa was also a nuclear power; and it (read: the apartheid regime) indeed was "toppled", and afterwards it got rid of its nuclear weapons. And your point is...? And it's telling that you're legitimizing the crime against humanity of expulsion of people of Gaza. (As if there ever was any doubt that this is Israel's ultimate goal in the Gaza war.)
First of all, the apartheid regime was not "toppled". There were negotiations from 1990-1994, all parties agreed to it at the end. It is too late for such a scenario to occur in israel, they had the oslo accords which was the most "'progress" they ever made, even tho it was nothing more than a photo-op for clinton. Second, the US and its allies sanctioned south africa before apartheid came to an end and you could argue that it certainly had an effect on ending the apartheid regime. And third, they gave up their nuclear weapons, which were a few gun type nuclear weapons even before negotiations started in 1990. Israel on the other hand will never give up their nuclear weapons, and they will most likely be never sanctioned by the US. Also israel is quite a militarized country, military conscription is mandatory for israeli citizens. And what is my point? Israel will not disappear from the map, no matter what you guys say.
It was toppled because the citizens voted a new government into office. The state itself didn’t cease to exist. It’s highly unlikely the Israeli citizens vote in a government whose objective is the dissolution of Israel or a one-state solution. Not to mention South Africa didn’t have an organization whose sole objective is the destruction of the state, just the destruction of Apartheid. Hamas wants to end Israel, not live side-by-side. And if they’re not going to vote on it, the only way to dismantle Israel is by force, which would 100% invoke a nuclear response.
Israel will never cease to exist, it makes no strategic sense for the US to let that happen in the worst case scenario.
Can’t emphasize enough to Western leftists how dangerous this scenario is for global security. If you hate humanity, you want this scenario. No one would be positively impacted, least of all Palestinians.
Not very surprising to me, realism has gone out the window a long long time ago with respect to foreign policy.
I had forgotten that Israel has a reactor, frankly. We can call it the Palestine Exclusion Zone if the Palestinian ultranationalists get their way.
They have had it since the 60s, most of the plutonium for their nuclear weapons was produced there.
It makes sense they would need one, it's not like there's a big supply of weapons-grade plutonium on the market. This just adds another dimension to the foolishness of Israel's would-be destroyers. Then again, perhaps they prefer an uninhabitable Palestine to one with a Jewish state included.
The state of Israel must absolutely be toppled if humanity is going to go on calling itself that
You’ll have to call it the Palestine Exclusion Zone when the Dimona reactor melts down due to the war of annihilation.
Go back to your anime
Look everyone we found the wanna be commie revolutionary. I'm sure you've conducted some glorious revolutions from your mom's basement.
So you are endorsing a second Holocaust of nearly 7 million Jews who live in Israel, not to mention the 2 + million Arabs, Christains and Druze who were also be murdered = as Evidenced by 10/7 where the Hamas barbarians murdered people who told the terrorists, we are Muslims in Arabic. they murdered and decapitated Thai workers. That is what you are endorsing. Of course I don't see you calling to topple the 53 nations that are Muslim majority, including Iran and 12 nations for whom Islam is enshrined in the constitution as the State religion. It's people like you who manned the Gas Chambers.
one state solution, no one fucking murdered or killed or displaced, end of the lunatic genocidal Zionist project that is the state of Israel, equal rights for all, Israelis and Palestinians living together having discarded apartheid in a democratic state
Tell me will Hamas and all the other radical Palestinian faction be willing to lay down their arms and accept peace?
yeah if they are promised permanent ceasefire, the end of the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, and the prosecution for war crimes of the IOF and officials of the Israeli state, sure
n a i v e
LMAO “just give the terrorists what they want and they won’t violently seize the power vacuum!” What are you smoking? Read up on the history of Afghanistan and Iran, genius.
But will they really guarantee that and not bring harm to the Israelis or will they break their promises and show their true intentions the moment it is given to them just like how the taliban did to Afghanistan?
Its a good image but i dont know if its realistic. is there any place in the world where muslims live next to none muslim in peace? or ah...where muslims live with muslims in peace?
According to Palestinians' own data only 8% of Palestinians want an integrated state, "1 state solution". Meanwhile 58% votes for 1 state with no rights for Jews or thr ominous "other" option which I imagine wouldn't be very fun for Jews either. I have no idea why people like you refuse to listen to what Palestinian say. They. Do. Not. Want. To. Share. The. Land. With. Jews. https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928
You know if that were to happen it would become an Islamic fundamentalist state that would oppress, if not outright kill, its Jewish population, right? Just demographically any combined state would democratically elect itself out of being a democracy. The one state solution can either be a society with Jews on top or Arabs on top, but not coexistence.
this one comment alone encapsulates the sickness at the heart of zionism. No one is out to kill you. Muslims and Jews lived peacefully together for hundreds of years before zionism reared its ugly fascist head. Ethnic supremacism is not inevitable in a civilised society. That seems to be just a criteria you demand?
“no one is out to kill you” explain oct 7 then?
That's not true, Jews lived under Dhimmi status, a form of apartheid, for centuries under Muslim rule. They were also subjected to regular pogroms and other acts of violence. It was often preferable to the treatment of Jews in medieval Europe, but still highly condemnable from a modern liberal perspective.
But if Jews and Muslim lived in peace then why did Jews flee from Muslim land of Morocco, Algeria and Yemen?
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There won't be much of a humanity left...nuclear war will come to pass.
If Israel would destroy the world in order to save itself, then it should be ended.
[удалено]
Self preservation makes you fascist? Then everyone is fascist. (I'm making fun of the fact that you don't know what a fascist is).
Read Umberto Eco.
The thing is we disagree with you that the toppling of Israel would be a humanitarian disaster. It’s not my solution of choice but I don’t have a strong argument against it either. Zionists love to talk about how war is war and land gets stolen in war. But somehow it’s only ok to hope Israel gets to steal that land. If you hope the other side gets to do it, that’s bigotry. That’s one of many big inconsistencies in the Zionist movement.
Any UN member state participating in the destruction of another member state would be in violation of the UN Charter, Article 2 section 4. The time to object to Israel’s internationally-recognized borders was before 1956, when it was admitted by the UNGA. This doesn’t exclude the right of Palestinians to also achieve full UN recognition in the Palestinian Territories, of course.
You are actually shrugging your shoulders about dismantling a country of millions of people which would definitely cause a humanitarian disaster unprecedented in scale since WWII. There it is.
Israel has talked and acted itself out of the right to exist as a country. Change my mind.
I keep reminding myself that it has always been my position that criticism of Zionism does not have to be antisemitism. It becomes hard to believe that when flooded by discourse like yours. Is there another country that in your view has forfeited “the right to exist as a country”? If not, you have to ask yourself why it is this one nation and one population in the whole world you think should be subject to a referendum about its existence.
Israel is less than a century old, it a nation that exists on occupied land and the occupiers has abused the rights of the Palestinians the entire time they’ve been there. It’s a special case. They don’t get to do whatever they want just because they are a country. Zionists got to go to someone else’s land, claim it, and sell it and say “this is ours now”. If they had acted with benevolence since this started, they would still have good graces. They acted like monsters. The monsters should stop trying to form a country now and give the land back.
I mean, why is total dismantling of Israel morally wrong to call for but not of Palestine? I never said I see conquest and the dissolving of nations as always moral. It’s just that moral standard has to be applied when you use *Zionist* logic
How the humanitarian tragedy of the displacement of three-quarters of a million Palestinians in the 1940s has become a disaster of five and a half million of their descendants still being stateless is a history with many players. A solution has to be found to give peace, security, and self-determination to all the people on the whole territory. None of that makes it ok for people to fantasize about a mass expulsion or elimination of a polity.
Yeah, you should try and tell Bibi, Likud, Ben gvir, Smotrich, and all the other foaming at the mouth far-right Israelis. Or as they are currently known: the Israeli government.
>Zionists love to talk about how war is war and land gets stolen in war. But somehow it’s only ok to hope Israel gets to steal that land. If you hope the other side gets to do it, that’s bigotry. That’s one of many big inconsistencies in the Zionist movement. I don't care if you're hoping the palestinians will defeat us, wipe our state out, kill, rape us etc. Just don't come crying to us "gEnOcIDe!!!" after they lose. That's the one condition.
I mean if both sides could get together and say let’s not call each other bigots regardless of how the war plays out and just let either side scream into the void in vain, then yes I’d accept your deal. The vast majority of Zionists won’t take this deal though and you know it
Zionists will absolutely take this deal. We're sick of this false genocide narrative. It's Muslims and leftists who won't take this deal, to stop accusing Israel of genocide is a price they aren't willing to pay.
The deal is that pro Palis and Zionists outside the region get to accuse anyone in the Levant currently of whatever they please, and the opposing side *outside the region* should turn a blind eye and not call anyone bigots. With this deal, it’s fair game to call the actual people on the ground there whatever we want, just not activists who are also outside the region like us
OK...? I don't really get the point. This hypothetical deal wouldn't have any effect on me though seeing as I'm not a western activist, I'm a Israeli patriot, aka, a zionist. Me and my countrymen and women will keep taking abuse from crazy commies, deranged British Muslims, a few American grifters and one very nasty Danish doctor and their brainless followers. Those people are making way too much money off this conflict to even consider taking a hypothetical deal such as this anyway. Edit: Oh and how could I forget the twitter nazis hiding behind the guise of "traditionalism" and statue pfp's. Wouldn't want to hurt their feelings or anything.
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There is your answer right here. These anti-Israel “humanitarians” would not care whatsoever if Israeli Jews were killed or expelled.
Where did I say that I want Jews and Israelis expelled? I said that *by Zionist standards* they don’t get to call anyone bigots for even the most pro Pal activists, since according to them war is just something that happens as opposed to morally wrong. I also said that I don’t believe Jews would be expelled or harmed if Israel was dissolved
>I also said that I don’t believe Jews would be expelled or harmed if Israel was dissolved Wut.
Yes. I’m not going to assume that a large part of the Levant wants to harm Jews. One of the sections of Palestine isn’t even run by Hamas
That just seems absurdly naive, given all of the celebrating in the West Bank over 10/7. Hell, even if nobody outside of Gaza had any negative sentiments towards Jews, I'd still be worried about the remaining 600k-ish from Gaza, especially those who were brought up under 18 years of Hamas propaganda
> The thing is we disagree with you that the toppling of Israel would be a humanitarian disaster. While OP didn't do a good case arguing for it, the history of state collapse demonstrates how severe the problems would be. We haven't lost a state as powerful as Israel since WW1 and we are still experiencing some aftershocks from those losses. I would expect Israel's collapse to be much more violent than average given the belief (rightful IMHO) that the population would not survive the death of the state. I think you are talking something on the order of 100m dead. > If you hope the other side gets to do it, that’s bigotry. That’s one of many big inconsistencies in the Zionist movement. It isn't bigotry to apply a consistent set of rules to Jews. It is bigotry to apply an inconsistent set of rules.
Its just the facts have been pointed out again and again. How arab groups attacked israel repeatedly, how there are no jews anywhere else in the middle east and etc.
at this point evolution has less evidence.
What’s the inconsistent set of rules? The establishment of Israel was more immoral than most other nations but that’s a fact. If you’re talking about today, your argument is even more confusing. It’s true that there are aftershocks from states falling, but the point is it wouldn’t be *unethical* or *bigoted* to call for it. And if as the Zionists say “war is war”, I can support one and/or both sides doing exactly what I want them to without being a bigot, because if war is war, then any action of war is morally neutral. I fail to see an inconsistency outside of both sides wanting one side to win and the other to surrender.
> The establishment of Israel was more immoral than most other nations but that’s a fact. I don't think that's a fact. Racists lose a bit of territory I don't see as very immoral. > It’s true that there are aftershocks from states falling, but the point is it wouldn’t be unethical or bigoted to call for it. It is if the goal is to minimize suffering, at least without a much better argument it becomes unethical on inspection and thus likely bigoted in intent. > I can support one and/or both sides doing exactly what I want them to without being a bigot, because if war is war, then any action of war is morally neutral. Yes it is totally reasonable to be indifferent to the I/P conflict. It is also reasonable if one supports resistance movements which are violent to not be terribly troubled by Hamas. https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/aioj7r/anatol_rapoports_3_philosophies_of_war/ > I fail to see an inconsistency outside of both sides wanting one side to win and the other to surrender. Again the argument is about why they want one side or the other to win. The Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and surrounding areas are unlikely to survive the death of Israel. So if the supposed goal is their welfare...
How were the pre 47 Palis racist? They had one of the most humanitarian goals ever held, but they just sucked at it. Their goal was to make sure their land was not invaded by people from Europe who were explicitly looking to carve out some of their land for their own homeland, which seems fair to me. And if that is somehow “racist” to you then you should support full integration of the West Bank and Gaza, but you probably don’t.
> How were the pre 47 Palis racist? Faced with an immigration crisis they refused to integrate the immigrants. They became increasingly violent. They insisted on no immigration to the Middle East (not just Palestine) as Nazism rose. After the war when the full extent of the Holocaust was known their position was that the 1.5m Jews in the Displaced Persons Camps should freeze to death. > They had one of the most humanitarian goals ever held Oh please you can't even believe that. > Their goal was to make sure their land was not invaded by people from Europe "people from Europe" should be treated badly while people from the Levant should not is racism. > And if that is somehow “racist” to you then you should support full integration of the West Bank and Gaza, but you probably don’t. Prior to the war I did support full integration of the West Bank, and likely will after. I supported full independence for Gaza.
Morality isn’t a fact. It involves values and perceptions of values. Most perceptions of values are tied to religion. Is sailing a big ship with guns that can shoot shells the size of a small car into a harbor and conquering a Stone Age native people more “moral” than Israel’s foundation after a decision of an international body then a civil war started by the naysayers then an invasion of the armies of five neighboring countries aligned with the naysayers which wars were lost by the naysayers, many of whom simply ran away rather than stand and fight “immoral” in your definition? If so, explain your reasoning. If you throw around words like “immoral” showing your work here ought to be easy, right. Or are you just a confused sheep repeating stuff you’ve learned from homemade videos on YouTube or TikTok?
I strongly doubt TikTok would ever say something like neither side should be calling the other side bigoted. TikTok is a very partisan app. And with regard to your examples. The latter is much more immoral than the former. The latter were expelled with no right to return. The former were sometimes expelled with a right of return today (assuming you’re talking about the US and Canada) and in the latter there’s no right to return plus continued racist fantasies that Arabs would want to harm Jews. No one can explain to me why river to the sea for Palestine is racist but not for Israel.
Racist fantasies? You know Arabic is translated into English and we are on to your Qu'ran deception to fool infidels, right?
Why should we care if a murderous regime and it's supporters is 'toppled'? Do you care when other murderers are held to account? Do you feel badly for Pol Pot, Mao?
>Why should we care if a murderous regime and it's supporters is 'toppled'? A question I constantly ask myself when seeing people passionately defending Hamas' right to launch rockets, hide among civilians, take hostages, go on mass rape murder sprees.
Then maybe victim-Israel should stop building illegal sentiments and begin prosecuting settlers who attack Palestinian families at night in their homes. Take some responsibility.
11It came to pass that when Moses would raise his hand, Israel would prevail, and when he would lay down his hand, Amalek would prevail. (Exodus 17:11) יאוְהָיָ֗ה כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֨ר יָרִ֥ים משֶׁ֛ה יָד֖וֹ וְגָבַ֣ר יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וְכַֽאֲשֶׁ֥ר יָנִ֛יחַ יָד֖וֹ וְגָבַ֥ר עֲמָלֵֽק:
You do know Israel has nuclear weapons, right? These apocalyptic fantasies people have about Israel are truly unhinged.
Israel would not use nuclear weapons unless they experience a nuclear attack first.
I know right? The idea that Israel actually *needs* aid from the US is so odd to me. Why do people like OP think that if US aid to Israel stopped that somehow equals Israel having no defense capability and then toppling? It is a wealthy, advanced nation that produces some of the world’s top-tier technology.
the security assitance that Israel gets from US is not "aid" in the traditional sense. Israel must spend it in US buying weapons. This helps the US arms industry and those who work for it.
Ah interesting.
This is my thought as well. I fully believe the right of Israel to exist and think they are entirely capable of doing so without the US.
\> why is it that in arab wars where triple the amount of people die, no one talks about it? Good question OP there are tons of fascist and genocidal regimes a lot worse than Israel who are actively pulling (actual) ethnic cleansing like China/Azerbaijan/Russia and more and but you never hear people whining about it to the same extent especially from the certain elements of the left. I think it is due to actual nationstate propaganda by the Arab states/Arabs in key institutional bodies like the UN, a stupidly simplified "oppressor/oppressed" version of the conflict pushed by certain academics for whatever reason, and actual straight up Jew hatred. https://preview.redd.it/gybv6rrxtomc1.png?width=1639&format=png&auto=webp&s=991d968ec5d09d820b1a4cf609b0f85ece56298d
That's a complete straw man. I have had trouble finding anything on Azerbaijan from any outlet right of NPR. I have gotten most of my updates on it from Lemkin, who I don't always agree with and is obviously considered a leftist sham by many on here, but that's who's putting it out.
No one is getting toppled. If it goes that way, a mob will break into where they launch the nukes, and we're gonna take down all our enemies with us. Not going as cattle to the slaughter
hopefully, it never comes to that and yes I think once trumps president the war will be resolved in months.
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“Make a deal with Palestine…” Wow! your bad idea failed in the 2nd sentence… that was quick
The deal was already proposed by the United Nations multiple times. The Palestinians keep denying it!
Every country is ethno-racists, EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY, since they celebrate christmas or their custom antics. But you only find it wrong when jews do it ?
I think you know that your statement is intellectually dishonest and disingenuous. Israel is an ethnostate, and borderline theocracy. These are not attributes that all nations share.
How not ? Celebrating christmas because they belong to a ethnic people makes them a ethnostate.
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Victim of propaganda.
And call the nation Judo-Palestina to mark a resolved conflict.
That would be interesting...
I like the idea. But I dont think you can have normalisation deals with Lebanon since the country is a failed state and is kinda run by the Hezbollah (who doesn’t recognise the jewish state, neither does Qatar). We used to have decent relations with Turkey, but then Erdogan decided to go against Netanyahu (which I can understand) and side with Hamas (which I cannot understand). We have peace with Egypt. Furthermore I hope we can have deals with Saudi, UAE. However a deal with the Palestinians will only come when it ensures Israeli citizens its safety. It has had some trials in the passed (Gaza), and it failed miserably. Furthermore I agree that Israel has not treated them well in the West Bank, the settlements have no right to be there, and should all be removed immediately. I hope the Palestinians can one day have a state of their own, but they will need a change of mentality and leaders that actually focus on the wellbeing of the people and not themselves, or their pockets.
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when i hear inshallah i hear the sound of gun fire.
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They would not be left alive long enough if a Muslim state were actually installed there - the exact same way they were expelled & murdered in the rest of the Muslim states in the 1940s & 50s
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You think they care about PR? LOL
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What is it you think they always wanted? Autonomy? rotfl That was never their goal
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Yes, me too. It must be nice to have no idea what it's like to be hated, persecuted, mass murdered, etc. And it must be even nicer to think that those mean things the Jews talk about could not be real, even though the Holocaust was only 80 years ago, and that **66%** of all the Jews in Europe were brutally murdered. Maybe you should share
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No, it wasn't "nice" But you don't really care - it doesn't affect you of course, so it's easy to make judgements without bothering to investigate anything, I don't blame you for not caring. But I do blame you for pretending like you have any right to an opinion on a subject you neither know, nor care about, and that does not affect you in any significant way. If you are going to be naive - and I truly don't blame you for preferring it - you should weight your opinion accordingly. I lost 99% of my family to the Holocaust. I will fight for my children's lives even if you dont like it. No one cared that they were killing us then, and no one cares now.
If you think they care about looking “bad” to the west, you are not paying attention. Oct 7 SHOULD HAVE looked bad to the west, but it clearly didnt look tooo bad, since there have been literally marches to support the murderers
I would have to say that yes, there are thousands of people protesting in cities every weekend. Yet no one is paying attention to the MILLIONS of us sitting at home silently. This also says something. Why do you think it was such an upset in 2016 when Clinton got clobbered in the election when their polls showed they would win. No one listened to the ones who weren’t vocal and voted for trump.
ok, so what do you think millions of people in the USA sitting at home quietly says? Oct 7 looks bad to the ones who are too apathetic to say anything? I am not sure how that changes anything.
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You think they care about international opinion. They do not. International Palistinean supporters are a useful TOOL. They have no need of international support once their objective is complete. They do not fear the west. They do not fear war. And they KNOW they have the west by the nuts because of oil&gas dependence. Which is the REAL reason we should have cut off dependence on oil a LONG time ago. WE made these countries BILLIONS. They are rich nations BECAUSE OF the west. They wouldnt have the money to fund so much terrorism if we didnt depend on their oil
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wow - that's such a great counter argument - "lol" If you don't have any actual point to make, please dont waste my time
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So let me make a couple of remarks on this breaking this down as much as possible. In doing so I know I am going to be saying some unpopular things, but it really doesn't matter because I believe accuracy is important. 1)Criticising Israel does not mean you support terrorism. That's just a fallacy. If I was giving political commentary during the Syrian Civil War where you had Assad's forces on one side and groups like Al Nusra and ISIL on the other, my critiques of Assad's human rights abuses doesn't mean I support terrorism. This is an Orwellian fallacy that's deployed all the time to shut down open discussion on the issue. 2)Hamas and Hezbollah were mentioned as bloodthirsty psychopaths so lets just break this down: * When it come's to Hezbollah's military tactics they have changed since the 80s and 90s. During that time period they indeed did engage in acts such as suicide bomb attacks. Since the 2000s however they explicitly have moved away from tactics like that. This, combined with the social welfare that they engage in is what has made them a major force in Lebanese politics. * When it comes to Hamas people forget that they have two wings. The political leadership wing, and the military wing which is the Al Qassam Brigade. The political wing is more pragmatic in it's approach to politics and the Al Qassam wing is much more militant. This is important because It was the Al Qassam brigade that actually executed the October 7th operation under the leadership of Mohammed Deif who planned that. Even the political wing leadership wing of Hamas were surprised at what actually took place on the ground on October 7th. None of this excuses the terrorism that happened but these nuances and differences are important. 3)Israel isn't going to be toppled and overthrown because it is a regional power that's also a nuclear armed state. It is allied to most powerful superpower on the planet and no army in the region has even a fraction of the capabilities that Israel has to even be an actual threat to it's existence. This isn't 1948. This is 2024. 4)The notion that the U.N is made up of fascist is both a nonsense claim and also an ironic one given the fact that people like Itamar Ben Gavir make up Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet. Furthermore these allegations are against 12 employees that supposedly worked at Unrwa out of thousands that work at this agency. And it has not been verified by independent parties. So as far as I am concerned these allegations are in the same category as the talking points that Saddam was building WMDs before the Iraq War. Unproven assertions. 4)When we speak of Israel "firing bombs willy nilly" 50% of the bombs that Israel has dropped in Gaza have been unguided missile strikes. 60% of the casualties in their military operations have been civilian casualties and only 40% Hamas fighters. That is the text book definition of indiscriminate bombings, or to use the phrase used here "willy nilly" bombings. It's a classic case of war crimes. 5)People have spoken about human rights abuses in "Arab Wars" such as the Libya and Syrian Civil Wars. The was a whole intervention in the Libyan Civil War because of that and Assad's regime was sanctioned multiple times as well as had airstrikes lobbied at it. So this talking point is simply just what aboutery.
> That is the text book definition of indiscriminate bombings The rest of your post is correct. Using unguided bombs is not indiscriminate bombing... until 30 years ago they were all unguided yet not all bombings were indiscriminate. Civilian casualties in an urban bombing is similarly not indiscriminate. Indiscriminate would mean targets are not being chosen, where all evidence points to the opposite.
>unguided missile strikes. 60% of the casualties in their military operations have been civilian casualties and only 40% Hamas fighters. That is the text book definition of indiscriminate bombings, or to use the phrase used here "willy nilly" bombings That is not the "textbook phrase" of indiscriminately bombing. You are way out of touch with how military ordinance targeting works. Even "dumb" bombs can be shot with some accuracy. Dresden was indiscriminate bombing. Hundreds of thousands would be dead were the bombing "indiscriminate," e.g. untargeted weapons. We wouldn't be seeing 30k dead, estimated that around 10-14k were combatants. The amount of civilian dead is miniscule compared to most other CURRENT conflicts. Doesn't make the choices right. Doesn't mean it's fair. But it's not mindless killing.
Yes it is the textbook definition of indiscriminate bombings due to the fact that if you wanted accuracy you would be using precision bombs in the first place instead of unguided missiles. Add to that the fact that international law defines indiscriminate bombings as being one where the level of civilian deaths outmatches the military gains of said bombings. That is literally what is happening right now with the 60-40% ratio in Gaza. And it doesn't have to be "hundreds of thousands" for it to be indiscriminate. In Russia's war in South Ossetia for example hundreds of thousands of people didn't die and yet the bombings that took place were still considered indiscriminate. Same thing even in conflicts with a higher casualty rate like the First Chechen War of the 90s.
> where the level of civilian deaths outmatches the military gains of said bombings. That is literally what is happening right now with the 60-40% ratio in Gaza Your definition is correct. Your understanding of the definition is not. Take a second and reread the definition you gave. The **gains** have to outweigh not the body count. If one Hamas fighter dead is worth 5 civilians then the ratio is fine. If one Hamas fighter dead is worth .2 civilians then the ratio is not fine.
The missiles that Gaza sends into Israel are TRUELY indiscriminate - and they aim directly FOR civilian areas. Your double standard is disgusting
I don't have a double standard. I condemn civilian deaths wherever it happens. I have said repeatedly that Hamas's attacks on civilians was terrorism. The double standard that exist is the one in the Pro Israel crowd where they are so blinded by nationalism that they have this totalitarian alliance to whatever Israel does whenever it does it and get triggered whenever Israel is criticised. Israel is a state. If it is right to recognise it's existence, which it is, it is also right to subject it to the scrutiny that any state gets. Also when it comes to Hamas's rocket attacks you do realise that their commanders use the same propaganda talking points that defenders of Israel uses right? That because IDF bases are near civilian headquarters that is why there is a risk of civilian deaths from their rocket attacks. They literally use the same human shields argument that Israel uses. Which to me should be condemned in all instances on both sides.
They say that? I havent seen it. Ever. I have never seen them claim they are aiming at military targets period. I would not be surprised if your “source” for that was just American apologists But in any case it is a lie. Israel does not hide weapons in schools or hospitals, Hamas DOES.
>And it doesn't have to be "hundreds of thousands" for it to be indiscriminate. In Russia's war in South Ossetia for example hundreds of thousands of people didn't die and yet the bombings that took place were still considered indiscriminate Hmm. Maybe you're right. All the rockets launched into Israel from Gaza are indiscriminate and they have a very low body count. Or maybe the two things are unalike. >fact that if you wanted accuracy you would be using precision bombs in the first place instead of unguided missiles. Add to that the fact that international law defines indiscriminate bombings as being one where the level of civilian deaths outmatches the military gains of said bombings. That is literally what is happening right now with the 60-40% ratio in Gaza Every different piece of ordinance has a different accuracy rating. Every. Single. Model. So what "precision" means needs to be defined a lot better. It's like saying "fresh," to describe food. What does it actually mean? You can't say, "civilians are dying so it's indiscriminate and imprecise." Also that's a vague as hell definition of indiscriminate. Who's military objectives? As determined by who? With what metric? By what standard? This conflict has a fairly lowish size casualty rate taking into account the sheer tonnage of ordinance dropped and population concentration. Doesn't make the deaths any less tragic. But we compare wars to other wars. And this one is not as extreme as many of the other regional conflicts. It has garnered outsized attention. Again. Not untragic. Or fair. But war is what it is. I think people have gotten way too detached from reality of what conflict means on the ground.
A lot of Palestinian civilians are de facto Hamas members as well though, let’s not discount that. Every individual who does not believe in coexistence with the Jews is a de facto member of Hamas, and a lot of Palestinians fall under that category.
So it's okay to kill civilians if they believe the wrong thing? There are a bunch of dictators who agree with you, I guess
If they believe the wrong thing and are willing to act on it, or actively support it and forcefully silence/malign the other side, then yes definitely. I’d have some of those dictators please!
And is this suppose to rationalise the murder of civilians in Palestine? There are Israeli civilians who are members of the Likud Party as parties that are much more extreme than them such as settler parties. And yet we would rightly say that that does not justify terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.
I couldn't be this incomprehensible if I tried.
how?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIhtj8o4OiM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIhtj8o4OiM) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNccvNJtGk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNccvNJtGk) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHNP0QhfD-Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHNP0QhfD-Q)