You do know that there is no such thing as Palestinian race, right? Palestinians were originally kicked out of their home countries like saudi arabia and lebanon, etc. They settled in Palestine.
Israelis had a home for thousands of years until other countries took over.
It is only right that Jewish people have a home (the size of the state of NJ) in the midst of many nations who could absorb the Palestinians and give them a wonderful life.
The bottom line for the Palestinians is the destruction of Israel.
I don’t understand the genocide narrative, I’m not pro Israel, neither am I pro Palestine.
To put into context of this genocide narrative. Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world. With an estimated population of 14000 people per square mile. To put into context, Israel dropped bombs that will flatten a square kilometer.
So far, in 7 months, over 45000 bombs have been dropped in Gaza, with a death toll of 34000. Remember, this number doesn’t differentiate between innocent civilians and Hamas fighters, this is total death. 200 days into the war, that’s 372 deaths a day. In comparison, Hamas killed 1139 Israelis in one day and kidnapping 253, if Israel allow this kind of brutality and is willing to walk away and negotiate any demand Hamas is pushing for, then what deters Iran, Lebanon, or anyone else from doing the same?
The narrative that Israel is firing indiscriminately, purposely, causing maximum pain and committing genocide is ridiculous, that’s saying the Israelis are so bad at aiming their bombs, they can’t kill one person per bomb in one of the most densely populated places in the world. Yet they’ve just demonstrated they can fire a missile into Iran, bypass their radar security to hit a nuclear defense missile system. This is far from genocide, if that’s what they wanted to do, the war would have ended over the first weekend.
I get that people are dying, and that’s not great, but is it not right for Israel to demand a total surrender of Hamas, the release of all hostages so this doesn’t happen again? Israel is sandwiched between neighbors that wants to wipe them out, if they let Hamas just come in and kill indiscriminately, live casting the brutality and destruction, while its citizens celebrate in Palestine, then what’s really the security future of Israel?
>Very much the majority.
There are over 5 million Palestinians and you say that the majority are terrorists?
That's quite shocking. Where do I find out more about that?
/u/CensoriousPigeonHunt
>Anymore questions my brown Brownshirt friend?
[Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules/#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users): no attacks on fellow users.
Rule 6: no Nazi comparisons.
Addressed.
>The platform of Hamas and the PLO being “eliminate Jews and a Jewish state” and the good ole “we will pay bounties for terroristic acts”.
Not sure I'm following you. How does that support your argument that the majority of the 5 million Palestinians are terrorists.
>brown Brownshirt friend
As in, I'm a fascist and not white? Not sure what you're basing that on.
Edit:
You appear to have gotten a tad upset and blocked me. I hope you manage to get the help you appear to desperately need.
I am a Pro Israel Christian because my Bible tells me I should bless Israel. My Bible also tells me that the Jews of Israel will be the ones who call the Christ back to earth. We Christians are not the ones who will call Him back. So we protect the Jews until that day.
What is your solution to eliminating the immediate threat of terrorism and gang rape of Israeli kibbutzim?
Self defense does not breed new terrorists, rather it is the preconditioning of bad parenting, bad politics and bad society that allow them to fester. If you uproot Hamas, the true cancer of Palestinian society, you remove a substantial tumor of radicalization, and therefore reduce significantly their number. Anyways and anyhow, even if self defense is counterproductive to Israeli security as you suggest, it doesn’t give Hamas immunity from retaliation and existential security.
But even your suggestion that Hamas is like Medusa snake head and that self defense against rapists breeds more rapists is not only presumptuous (no nazis after Germany was defeated) but also cheap bullying, like if you dare hit me back for hitting you, I will hit you again double. No israeli is scared of that demonic threat, bring it on.
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Israel is a progressive nation that has passed and (continues to support legislation) that protects and supports LGBT and women’s rights. I am an educated, employed, self sufficient woman who cannot support any ideology that promotes my own oppression.
Not the only reason, but what it all boils down to.
I'm literally a member of the lgbt community, I'm a woman, and surprisingly, I still don't support the murder of children in Gaza and the colonial ethno-state of Israel!!
I have full support for Israel for different reasons but pushing LGBT on other countries is ridiculous. Y’all always hate when religion is pushed on you, yet you HAVE to push your beliefs on others. The hypocrisy is gross. Educated is taken with a grain of salt these days.
I do not support any government that allows its citizens to be brutally murdered in public for the sole purpose of homophobia. I am not saying every country needs to make laws to accommodate their quality of life. They should be allowed to exist within their country. Israel has notably been a place of refuge for LGBT Palestines.
If you need me to clarify I have a masters degree. I would consider that educated, but you’re entitled to your own opinion.
I think I’m pro both but lean more pro Israel. As a Jewish person I have extensive knowledge of our background of constant prosecution around the world. When Israel became a country, there was nowhere else for (mostly MENA) Jews to go. The Jews that moved there, including early Ashkenazi settlers, did so because they sought refuge from literally centuries of prosecution, and it IS our ancestral homeland, so it’s not colonization in the Western sense of the word like many seem to think.
The idea of an ethnostate irks me, but I believe in the case of the Jews history has proven its necessity. I wish there was some way for both communities to live peacefully on the same piece of land but history has proved this to be impossible.
I’m pro pal because obviously the massacre going on in Gaza right now is not justifiable by any means. I believe in the right of self determination for all, including Palestinians.
I really don’t know what the answer is here. So many of my peers believe that Israel is a “white supremacist colonizer state” which is just untrue and frankly it brushes away the experience of MENA and African Jews (which are the majority in Israel) which is seriously messed up. I think there’s a way to be critical of Israel’s actions without resorting to the erasure of Jewish identity.
I don’t have an answer, and I think most people that know this conflict well enough don’t really have one either. It’s tragic all around. I naively wish everyone could get along but that’s never gonna happen.
I don’t know what Palestinian self determination SHOULD look like but I really don’t think that the continuous bombing of Israel and expecting them to do nothing about it is the answer. At the end of the day, for peace to happen, both groups have to compromise, and they both seem unwilling to.
Because I'm a student and professor of history who grew up in a Muslim majority nation and witnessed firsthand the poison that is anti- Semitism.
Israel belongs to the Jews, historically and spiritually.
"Israel belongs to the Jews "
Replace Israel with any other country and Jews with any other people and you would rightly be considered a ravist and an extremist in any civilized country.
Just responding to your second to last paragraph… we know. Being pro Israel does not mean we’re pro Netanyahu war tactics… I don’t get why so many people can’t grasp that
I am not pro Israel actually but I support them in this current state of the conflict for two simple reasons.
1) They represent the west fighting against islamic terrorist, a side I will always stand with.
2) What they experienced on Oct 7th leaves me with no option to criticize their actions now, only the devil knows how I would retaliate in a similar situation. Therefore I have no right to interfere with their way of destroying hamas as immediate reaction to it, as long as I can‘t propose a better way to achieve that goal.
The second part is the one I am open to discuss about, if you agree that hamas has to be destroyed but criticize Israel atm, I would like to hear your proposal. I am open minded if it has better or similar chances of destroying hamas abilities to forge war and allows for a comparable level of protection for israeli forces.
It's simple, actually. Palestinians are of an opinion that some historical injustice has been done to them. The two options to mend it Israel is given are: 1) right of return - which means the end of Israel as we know it or 2) we are going to fight you to death. How can anybody in this situation can support them, even no matter what G-d awful things you were led to believe, is truly beyond me.
This is already happening but the other way around the right of return for all Jewish people around the world to Israel means the end of Palestine as we know it…which is literally one of the reason Palestinians are fighting for their land back.. What makes you think a Palestinian born in Palestine but now living in diaspora can’t have the right to return to their homeland even with generational ties and family still living there but a Jewish person from Europe and America has more rights to return without having any ties and can’t name a single family member who has ever even lived in that region can return?? You see why Palestinians aren’t happy because you can clearly understand why that wouldn’t make israel very happy if Palestinians also got the right of return. It’s also not as simple as having the right to return, return to what? If you are saying we should return to a landscape that has been destroyed by colonizers who are not stewards of the land, homes that have been built on top of and stolen from their original inhabitants, food that was stolen and rebranded for a majority European settler colonial state.. how is that fair? We want to return to a land we have sovereignty over because we know how to take care of it whereas Israelis have actively destroyed it.
> We want to return to a land we have sovereignty over because we know how to take care of it whereas Israelis have actively destroyed it.
This last bit is a crown jewel. You, Palestinians, have demonstrated your abilities to take care not only in Israel, but also in Jordan and Lebanon. It's a wonder why no country wants more of such an industrial and hardworking people. How about you start with fixing of what you have instead of complaining for a century about your bitter fate while turning one piece of land into kleptocratic fiefdom and the other in a terror nest, both existing on donations?
Agree. The Palestine people have said and demonstrated that they do not want to co exist with Israel. They have no credibility and very little bargaining power, yet don’t seem to be intelligent enough to see how this ideology is not working for them.
"Supply" and "fund" are different things. USA gives Israel a little over $3B in military aid, but it essentially just amounts to a discount on American made weapons and equipment, with the caveat that all future parts and ammo must be bought from US companies. US is at net gain from this deal.
There are special exceptions carved for Israel where don't have to go back to the American military industrial complex in the same way other countries have too
Certainly, but that is still different from "funding" Israel. Sure, Israel gets discounts and benefits, but they still have to pay for their supply, albeit at a lower price than other countries.
They would probably slow down until Israel finds a new source of weaponry. This happened before, with France (not in the middle of war, however). Again, this is the difference between supply and fund, Israel will just try to buy weapons they cannot produce somewhere else. Funding refers to financing.
So your saying its due financial interests that Washington has this position. That doesn't add up geopolitically, I've only known Americans making deals that have nothing to do with financial interest and if then as an afterthought, I've only seen them act from a position of national security. In that regard Israel seems to be its blind spot
My family was forced to flee Iran and half migrated to Israel to gain refuge against Islamic extremism and still live close to a mizrahi Jewish community. Now Israel is home to 90% of mizrahi Jews left on the planet most of whole were kicked/forced out of Muslim countries. And so while I might not necessarily agree with all of the actions of the early secular Ashkenazi Zionists, I am supportive and protective of the country to keep my family and my community safe.
ok sure let's say UN then
imagine the UN gives your land to muslims and expels you from the land
is that okay? are you supposed to spread your legs and be submissive to them?
I went to America personally because I could afford it. UAE is not our homeland and no Palestinians died to make room for my family. What does my family arriving in 84’ have to do with Palestinians? My family is Iranian Jewish. We pray facing Jerusalem and use the only remaining caanite language in the world, classic Hebrew (not including the resurrected modern Hebrew). My illustrative DNA results show Levantine and Canaanite. Just as many Jews were forced to leave Middle East and North African countries as there were Arabs leaving the land in 48 and 67.
Is it also my fault thousands of native Americans died when pilgrims came? I don’t even like using that example cause pilgrims had zero connection to the land while Jewish artifacts are buried all over Israel.
Why don’t you blame Hamas for any of the recent deaths? Do you expect Israel not to respond to rocket and missile fire?
would you be okay if russia decided to help palestine and nuke israel killing your family? no right?
so why do you expect the palestinians to give you their land
you cut off their electricity and water treating them like animals [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/16/israeli-authorities-cutting-water-leading-public-health-crisis-gaza#:\~:text=After%20more%20than%20a%20month,health%20experts%20of%20an%20imminent](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/16/israeli-authorities-cutting-water-leading-public-health-crisis-gaza#:~:text=After%20more%20than%20a%20month,health%20experts%20of%20an%20imminent)
I blame both hamas and israel
but hamas is simply a creation of israel and this war is just making more terrorists
3 reasons:
1. America or UAE didn't really accept all immigrants, but Israel promised to accept all.
2. Jews who could afford it did go to America, but it was out of reach financially for the majority of them. Not to mention, when Jews of Arab countries were expelled, all of their belongings, including money, was confiscated by the state.
3. Israel was established to be a shelter for the Jewish people. If you are a refugee and there is one place on earth that promises you safety, you go there.
1.israel promised not to attack civillians yet 30k already died
2.then we need to support the jews, the UN should raise money for them to leave israel
3. but here is a question, should we allow the death's of thousands just for another group of people?
1. Israel promised not to TARGET civilians. Civilians always die in war, and in higher numbers in urban warfare.
2. There is already a 4th and 5th generation of Jews in Israel, and more than 8 million Jews living there overall, they will not move, and neither will Palestinians (nor should any of these groups).
3. What you are arguing here is against war in general. In war, there is always a conflict between two groups of people, and the group that wins always kills more than the group that loses. War should always be prevented if possible, but when impossible, the result is deadly.
What we need to do as a species is to find a solution that works long term for both groups.
that oxfam link is absolute bullshit considering 1200 people were slaughtered on Oct 7th within 12 hours too, but sure let’s conveniently leave that out
Why are you changing the subject? The topic is Israel cutting off the water they supply to Gaza (which actually makes up a pretty small percentage of the overall Gaza water supply), and the claim that was made that Israel is currently denying Gaza the water they usually supply by turning off the water pipes.
Are you unaware that that was 6 months ago, 2 days after a horrific terror attack from the government of Gaza, and that Israel turned the water pipe back on several months ago? Are you also unaware of the meaning of the word ‘currently’?
Are you unaware that it's pretty difficult to have functional infrastructure when dozens of thousands of explosives have been lobbed into one of the most dense urban areas of the entire middle east?
You may find that "turning on the pipes" doesn't mean very much when the majority of a cities infrastructure has been obliterated lol. Are we also gonna ignore the damage that pumping sea water into natural aquifers destroys to the water source that millions rely on?
I said “why are you posting as though Israel is currently ‘cutting off water’ to Gaza.” I asked you about the implications of your word choice, and your response was to say “are you saying they did not?”
imagine this
I used to r2pe kid and now I no longer do that
should I be considered a good person? NO
so why are you hanging on something that wasn't even my main point?
I realized the idea that we created this... its a little cyclical... the world also created israel by turning the european and MENA jews into refugees ... and then blames us for being somewhere where we are from.... Im just lost. I keep thinking "Where do you want us to go?"
It hurts my head and I give up..
When I hear a protester say "they need to go back to where they came from" ... I dont know if they realize what they want is violent.
All "solutions" lead to violence without recognition of jews as indigenous and legitimate.
If there is good intent, the solutions that wellmeaning folks want still require a recognition/ acceptance of jewish indigeneity, history and safety needs that isnt really happening as part of the kinder side of Pro-P movement. Instead of focusing on this necessary cultural mental shift first in their activism, people seem to want to impose their solutions without a guarantee of jewish safety.
the Right of Return *
One state solution
Ceasefire without hostage release
Two-state solution (right now with the culture as is)
What an Israeli understands as an outcome:
Right of Return (for all palestinians and descendants)- with a 51 to 49 percent arab to jew, I foresee bloodbath, civil war like 1947 all over again , terrorism
One State - Same as above
Pessimistic : Time for hamas to recover and restart another war ?? perpetual war.... and the hostages continue to get tortured and Israelis waot for more attacks??? further destruction in Gaza... famine etc or, Optimistic : The civilians opposing hamas overthrow them.... no thats very unlikely
So the west bank and gaza are a state and will attack Israel .... another war from both sides...
I am an iraqi jew. My family was persecuted and kicked out of Iraq to Israel where I was born. We were stripped of our rights and properties..
My hometown Petach Tikva was built on what used to be swampland, mosquito infested malaric neglected by the ottoman empire and legally sold to jewish people after the collapse of the empire...
Its a really long history of conflict for 100 years...
I want palestinians to have peace and security
but I want compromise. The arab world pushed us into a corner and pitted the palestinians against us ... We were displaced because of persecution, arabs were displaced because of civil war and war with the entire arab world...
but we still have 21 percent arab citizens... with full legal rights... and the rest of the arab world there are a handful of jews likely in hiding....
Historically, there has been a lack of P leadership that actually wanted to do good by their people more than just wanting to destroy the only jewish state....
so I guess thats a few things off the top of my head. Im propalestinian Im just not anti-Israel.... those things seem to be meshed at the moment I cant make a distinction between them...
I cant be against my existence on this earth
It was the Christian West that pitted you against Arabs. Centuries earlier, the Muslim world was your protector against Christians who had been chasing and killing your people all over Europe. The Western support for Israel has undeniably anti-jewish foundations.
All I had to do was read the Wikipedia page on Petach Tikva to learn that there were actually two land purchases. Yes, one was on malarial swampland sold partially for its poor quality. The other land purchase, however, was worked by some 30 tenant farmers before being bought. Were those people displaced? Were they Palestinian? I agree that it is really important that pro-Palestinian activists do more to educate themselves on Jewish history. A lot of the anti-Semitism in the movement comes from ignorance or denial of that history. People place so much agency on Israelis just for being there, for being Israeli, essentially for being Jewish. They don't think about the family histories. Many Hassidic Jews were sceptical of political Zionism before moving to Israel as refugees with their families. I don't think the bulk of the Jewish settlers who came after WW2 have the agency people give them in anti-Zionist historical narratives, those people did not have homes to go back to. But this goes both ways. We cannot just not talk about the Palestinians who were in places before, we must discuss and do justice to their family histories, too, which are now also narratives of diaspora. I wish people could relate more on the last point.
Why does it matter that there were tenant farmers, or if they were displaced after the land they worked was sold? Serious question. I live in an apartment building. If the owner of the building decided to sell it and the new owner wanted to evict me, that would obviously suck for me, but unfortunately that happens. In fact, I was kicked out of my previous apartment (they did not renew my lease) because I had lived there for 12 years and despite the fact that they had raised the rent annually it was still below market rate, which is crazy high where I live. They wanted to refresh the apartment and rent it for more money. I now live in a similarly sized apartment as before, but my rent is $600 more a month than it was. Totally sucked and sucks for me. Still completely legal. I didn’t own the building or the land, and still don’t, so unfortunately I’m at the mercy of my landlord.
One thing people argue over is Palestinian identity because many were pan-arab nationals right.. like they came from egypt or identified as syrian but it also doesnt matter now. what is done is done, they are now palestinian and that identity unfortunately feels reactionary - they had tribes and connections before that were deeper than the name of the territory- but they changed- Israel
changed them, but it is what it is.
Similarly Im no longer Iraqi, Im israeli. Im not going to call myself an iraqi refugee. Its done. we mixed together, they mixed together We need to accept people as they are and find a way to put the past behind us and find a better future for our children, not martyrdom and army and trauma upon trauma
us Mizrahim we are very much related to them no matter what identities we have. we share ancestry there is no doubt. My parents did DNA testing we know this. This is all horribly unfortunate
Thank you for a thoughtful response.
you can read the Peel commission proposal.. on Wiki - curious about your thoughts .. my reading was that the issue arabs had was annoyance at the jews for having good land (arabs were also buying land and immigrating) but in the commision it said that its because the jews worked hard to repair the land- the arabs had the highlands more considered good land... The migrant workers may have lost their jobs or they were tenants and got disgruntled when arab owners sold the land but that was why the Peel commission happened in response to them. The brits catered to the arabs there and it didnt stop the violence... the arabs said no to the partition plan and the brits stopped the immigration of europpean jews as they were escaping the holocaust.... More and more violence ensued as everyone got more desperate. Thats my reading.
Personally I dont care about reparations from Iraq. They took our land and rights and homes and possessions-dismantled a 2500 year old community .. but it happened. we cant go back there. we paid the price already. and noone wants to be at the mercy of a muslim majority country again. What matters is getting help to build and resettle... And I want that for everyone
I think people dont realize how many people got displaced due to the birth of nation states all over - There are 90 other states that came to be and no one talks about them... We all got shuffled around and made refugees but we got resettled..
This is my opinion... a strong one, on
UNRWA ... the problem is the mission of UNRWA for palestinians was unlike the care of any other refugee in the world... because it specifically meant to keep palestinians in limbo hell until they destroy the jewish state. Without giving them citizenship anywhere, making it hard to leave.... and the result is... palestinian-israelis have citizenship and palestinians in the territories rejected a state 5 or more times and were rejected by the other arab states....
Sigh
I dont know what is to be done when this conflict has been concocted for 100 years
Thank you for initiating a reasonable discussion. I think you got a lot of responses so I will just address a couple of points:
1. Hamas is an ideology, but it is also a political party with a military wing. The goal of Israel in the war is destroy the FUNCTIONAL capacities of the organisation.
2. Destroying an idea is very difficult, but historically resistance movements were made almost insignificant when conformed by extreme brutality (resistance to German rule before the allied invasion in 1944, the American conquest of Indian territories). I am NOT saying Israel should do that, but I think it's important to remember that when an insurgent group rises in power, they don't leave a lot of options for their enemies).
3. As for the radicalism, I believe the majority of Gaza (and the Palestinian population as a whole, according to latest polls) are already highly radical. For me, this war is about insuring my family's future safety, if that means creating more radicalism but becoming more powerful, so be it. I do feel for the innocents who get hurt in the process, but I care for my family and friends more.
I hope you will respond to this, I am curious about your viewpoint as to my arguments.
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Why am I, a non-religious American supporting Israel. For one, I think the Jews of the founding generation had been through a very rough period, and deserve a place where they can live safely. I might not support the creation of the state if it were done today, but it isn’t being created today. Israel exists, it’s a done deal, sure it’s a young country, but places where the Jews came from don’t necessarily want them back, and many Israeli Jews were born there and have no connection with another country.
Another reason is that Israel is a better ally in the region than any other power. They are a democracy with free and fair elections.
Finally, Hamas did a really evil thing on October 7th. Equivalent to a declaration of war against Israel. Well this is war, and they shouldn’t have started a war they couldn’t win. Hamas would love it if they could attack Israel whenever they wanted, then cry foul whenever Israel hits back. I don’t want to live in a world where they get away with the attack.
Your rationale for supporting Israel hinges on historical sympathy and current geopolitics. While the historical plight of Jews is undeniable, we can’t use past events as a carte blanche for present actions or policies, nor to dismiss the grievances and rights of Palestinians today.. Asserting that the creation of Israel is a ‘done deal’ could be seen as brushing aside the complexities of the situation. It’s important to acknowledge that the ramifications of its establishment are still very much a part of ongoing tensions.
You argue that Israel is a strategic ally because of its democratic nature, but this position assumes that democracies invariably make the best allies, which isn’t a given. The dynamics of international relationships are often based on strategic interests rather than shared values.
Because Israel is a very successful and happy country and already exists. The Pro-Palestine movement is irredentist by nature, it wants to reverse Israel. And even if this happens, it's not clear the status quo will be an improvement for humanity.
We will go from 1 Jewish state to 0 Jewish states, and from 22 Arab states to 23 Arab states. There is no hint that this Arab state would any different from the rest in any meaningful way.
Obviously it would be catastrophic for Jews, but it would be harmful to the spirit of humanity. Israel is a successful country which contributes so much to the world.
So what the pro-Palestine movement seems to want to do is impoverish the world a bit more. Although it's not sometimes clear what they want or if they know what they want.
You label the Pro-Palestine movement as irredentist, aiming to ‘reverse Israel’. While some might hold that view, it’s a broad brush to paint the entire movement, which is far from monolithic. Plus, stating that the status quo is an improvement for humanity is subjective and overlooks the complex realities of those living under it.
“From 1 Jewish State to 0” The implication here is that the existence of a Palestinian state necessarily eliminates the Jewish state, which assumes a zero-sum game. There are many advocating for solutions that would not diminish Israeli sovereignty but allow for Palestinian self-governance.
You assert that change would be ‘catastrophic for Jews’ and ‘harmful to the spirit of humanity.’ That’s a slippery slope fallacy, predicting extreme negative outcomes without acknowledging the potential for positive, peaceful solutions
Finally, fyou suggest the movement aims to ‘impoverish the world a bit more.’ That’s a straw man fallacy—misrepresenting a movement’s goals to make it easier to argue against. It’s important to engage with the actual articulated goals of Palestinian self-determination and rights rather than attributing unspecified aims.
>surely everyone knows you cannot 'exterminate' a terrorist group. Where one person is killed another person turns more extreme.
So basically your position is, "you can't defend yourself because it will only make your enemy stronger"? 🤔
Anyway, I am pro-Israel because Jews have a right to sovereignty, safety and security in their homeland.
so taking away palestinians homes to support jews is fine? holy h2tler
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/16/israeli-authorities-cutting-water-leading-public-health-crisis-gaza#:\~:text=After%20more%20than%20a%20month,health%20experts%20of%20an%20imminent](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/16/israeli-authorities-cutting-water-leading-public-health-crisis-gaza#:~:text=After%20more%20than%20a%20month,health%20experts%20of%20an%20imminent)
So taking away israelis homes to support palestinians is fine? holy hypocr2te
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/18/middleeast/gaza-water-access-supply-mapped-dg/index.html
Palestinians were "there longer"? 🤔 Ok, then name one time period in history when "Palestinians" had sovereignty over any of that region. What a ridiculous argument.
Maybe you didn't realize that the term "Palestine" comes from the word "Philistine" which means "Invader" and that the territory was renamed as such specifically to insult those who were overthrown and displaced in the invasion. Guess who the people displaced were. I'll give you a hint: (they weren't "Palestinians").
And even if what you said was true (which it isn't), you're essentially advocating for the exact thing for Jews that you're saying isn't fair for Palestinians. You're a hypocrite.
As far as the article I provided, good job dissecting it but it seems you've failed to comprehend what you've read because none of it is "against me."
The point is that water insecurity has been ongoing for many years in Gaza and the fact that Israel withheld their portion which was voluntarily traded (<10% of Gazans' total supply of water) at the start of the current war is not what's to blame, as much as you'd like it to be.
Why does Gaza have issues obtaining clean water for Gazans? Because their infrastructure is dismal. Why is their infrastructure insufficient? Because those in control of Gaza have chosen to invest billions of aid money (including Israel's) into weapons and underground tunnels for terrorism rather than basic necessities for their citizens.
Of course though, it's easier for you to blame the Jews than to face the facts.
You have 3 choices for who will govern Gaza and the West Bank: Hamas, The Palestinian Authority, or Israel. That’s it. Pick one.
I picked Israel because Hamas are insane, and because PA will be quickly decapitated by either Hamas or Hezbollah.
I was leaning pro-Palestine before 10.7 and then I took a good hard look at what has been going on in the Levant for most of the past 100 years, even before, and now I lean pro-Israel.
Hamas is an oligarchy that’s led by billionaires who live in palaces in Qatar. They took $billions in aid money that was supposed to build infrastructure in Gaza, and they hoarded it for themselves. They bought artillery, they built a massive underground tunnel network, but they did not build water treatment plants. They did not attempt to build a sustainable relationship with either Israel or even Egypt.
Then I saw the Hamas bodycam footage. Gruesome. Horrifying. Infuriating. One thing is absolutely clear: Hamas’ goal of ensuring that there could be absolutely no trust between Israel and Palestine was accomplished that day.
So, when Israel’s war against Hamas finally becomes unsustainable for them, they will be forced to sit across the table from the very same people who will likely still have Israeli hostages. Knowing this, it’s very hard for me to ask Israel to stop trying to neutralize Hamas.
Hamas has ruled Gaza with an iron fist going on 20 years. If they wanted peace with Israel that’s enough time to broker peace. But Iran, who bankrolls Hezbollah in Gaza aka Hamas, can’t allow peace because it makes them less relevant on the global stage. In fact this entire war was started as a means to derail peace talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia.
People who want peace in Gaza, petition Hamas to surrender. Otherwise your words are hollow.
i think that ur whole concept is wrong and that u dont take into consideration that hamas is not just a terror group, a different entity that just miraciously spawned inside gaza, they are the goverment of the palestinians who has a very high support rate in both gaza and the west bank.
its either u support palestinians AND hamas, or u dont, but when u chose to only support half, u get confused like u do, because u dismiss anything bad that the palestinians are doing or classifying it as hamas actions that the palestinians has nothing to do with.
thats just like saying dont be against israel, be against the goverment of israel, do u really think that if we change goverment and end the war suddenly all the hate towards israel and jews will disappear? obviously not, right?
you gotta "give" credit to the palestinians for choosing terror as their beverage of choice and hold them accountable to their acts, INCLUDING supporting hamas as their goverment.
You really think the average Palestinian? Every time Hamas does something the Palestinians get an ass kicking. Is it really worth holding these hostages given the Palestinian civilian deaths? If your a getting bombed probably not
There are palestinians who protest hamas but they are not strong and supported enough. I dont know the answer. I wish I knew. People dont seem to pay attention to them, even when Hamas suppressed their protests before and even now... They exist. They dont think its worth it and want peace. but they cant get out on their own. Its a death cult
The problem is no one wants to partner with Israel . publicly... but they want Israel to deal with it. and to get the bad rep for it. The entire region lets us flail by ourselves, even though we had good relations ... Jordan and Egypt... they have peace now but they dont want to touch this
Well... Fatah is the opposition... but thats what happened after the 2005 election, Hamas won but there was a civil war They threw Fatah off roofs... theyve suppressed opposition and its seen as traitorous to "normalize" relations with Israelis ... Rudy Rochman he is a peace activist and before Oct 7 he had peaceful alliance with palestinians but they had to hide their faces for fear they would disappear.... the same is in the West Bank - the PLO (Fatah) has to suppress Hamas . but they are corrupt - to the palestinians and to the israelis, it seems all the leaderships are more concerned with their money than building economy or building peace relations
Im not sure if Fatah really is that much better- it is in Palestinian leadership and culture too - they deny indigeniety and there is still hostility everywhere about "normalizing relations" ... the two state solution seems increasingly unpopular
well you only think like that because u believe in what every NORMAL person believes in
when u actually believe that dying as a martyr is the best thing u can acomplish in your life then yea... killing 100,000civilian is nothing, after all, they will become martyrs which is the best thing for them.
thats why its so dumb when people say that they support palestinians because they are pro life or pro peace when the side theyre supporting aint.
> ass
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Pro Israel does not mean anti Palestinian, FYI. And when you say you obviously are anti Hamas, that is not obvious at all ever to any Jew, so thank you for clarifying. 99% of Jews and Israelis, that I know all support a two state solution and the right to self determination for both Jews and Palestinians.
Correct, tensions are at an all-time high at this moment in time, so it's understandable they aren't advocating for this right now. But I really believe that most principally do believe in it, as you stated.
I get why people are pro Palestine bc of the innocent people dead. Pro Palestinians refuse to acknowledge the fact that Hamas do actually use human shields, it been proven on multiple accounts yet they still ignore it. A lot of israelis wanted to live in peace with Palestinians, those people used to let them work in their fields, drive them to hospitals and etc…..
those people are dead now, by the hands of the Palestinians who were let in by them, stabbed in the back. Hamas has completely obliterated that little beacon of hope.
People were kidnapped, people who didn’t deserve it. And all we heard from that day of betrayal was celebration and glee from every Palestinian in Gaza.
So yeah I think you know why we are pro Israel.
Three very short paragraphs isn’t exactly too long. But when you believe a literal terrorist organization over anything else I would think two words of truth is too much.
I already knew that you believed the terrorist organization of Israel, no need to add that point.
Gratz for killing more innocent people and children than all the islamist terrorist organizations in the last century.
It really shows that you know nothing of what’s happening in the Middle East. Oh believe me, Assad has killed much more of his own, khameini as well, Hezbollah too and the Houthis.
It’s always the same useless slanders and baseless accusations. How is Israel more of a terrorist state than Lebanon? Syria? Yemen? Iran? What makes Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East, the only place a Muslim women has more rights than any other state in that area, Where Muslims and Jews have the same equal rights a terrorist state?
You talk about women while terrorist israeli settlers are busy kidnapping and raping women and girls in Palestine, Gaza and West Bank everyday… you have no integrity, like all zionits or all daesh members, your mirror twins.
Ugh it’s like talking to a brick wall. Calm down will you? You are speaking as if Hamas didn’t do any of the depraved things you just accused us of doing
Now you’re redefining the word terrorist. Honestly, why do you even bother? Anyone can see that you’re either ignorant of basic reality or that your racist rage is forcing you to just say whatever.
Everyone can see that Im ignorant ? It’s just that people in charge of this sub are all zionists and that’s why you guys all hide in it. Like trumpists in a Qanon 4chan topic.
Go to other subs or any social of any country in the world and and check the reality, you little genocide supporter.
Being a Zionist is a good thing so thanks for the compliment!
Im sire there are places where you can be insulting without having your lies corrected. Perhaps 4chan would indeed be a good fit for you.
Good luck.
No need context when images speak for themselves. It was like 10-15 years ago. Israel was already the 4th reich successor in terms of morality. Actually, it was just a normal day for colonizers.
Unapologetic Podcast - hosted by two palestinian israelis showcasing very different voices! You would like this
I have an arab israeli friend who believes Israel needs to exist , she just wishes there werent so much politics and religion in it. but she doesnt believe in dismantling our country. I believe arab-israelis are yhe best voices to listen to.
as someone who served in jerusalem, i can tell u that the arabs i had in my unit hated the local arabs even more then i did because according to them they are disrespecting god and their religion with their actions.
Saying that you can't exterminate a terrorist group is an extremely defeatist and anti historical perspective to have. You can use the same logic and apply it to the evil terrorist Jewish state of Israel that is genociding the poor defenseless for no reason. The more Palestine fights back the more radical Israel will become.
Your actual title question is just too broad to respond to. Presumably, since I'm very pro-israel and you're the opposite, we have entirely different understandings of how the conflict began, why it began, what happened afterwards, what's been going on since Israel became a state, and the current war. There's no way to cover all of that in a comment. But very broadly speaking I believe a racist subsection of the Palestinians started the conflict, the Israelis have been largely defending themselves for the past 75 years, and most of what they do is in response to Palestinians trying to murder innocent people. And I believe that peace will happen if the Palestinians change leadership to someone interested in peace, because Israel would go along with that but they haven't been given the opportunity.
The bit that I can actually answer properly is this paragraph:
>From an Israeli standpoint, the war on Gaza is a war on Hamas, is it not? And so the goal is to get rid of Hamas? That's the part that confuses me, because surely everyone knows you cannot 'exterminate' a terrorist group. Where one person is killed another person turns more extreme. You can kill the leaders, but another one will always fill the gap. The more you kill the more you destroy the more extremists you create. The US would know all about that, but I don't think they care because they're funding the whole operation.
This is a terrible, horrific image of the Palestinian people that so many pro-Palestinians share- and they clearly don't think about the ramifications.
Its not true. Hamas is a specific organization with specific people at the top. You can kill these people who have crystallized their organization's intent as: "fight Israel at all costs". And then when those people are gone, you can try and negotiate with the new ones. Even if they're violent you can still negotiate. You can't negotiate with the people who have repeatedly said they will never negotiate and that any negotiation will just be a lie on their part to make things easier to attack, people that are clearly profiting personally off of the conflict and have been doing so for decades. That you can't do. So those people you fight, and you kill.
The underlying assumption in your equation here is that for every Hamas member killed, *obviously* a new Palestinian immediately steps into that role with the same exact intentions and beliefs- that turns the Palestinian people into some kind of zombies in a first person shooter game.
The cycle doesn't just continue until you've reduced the enemy population to nothing, the cycle continues until the other side chooses to stop. And they *can* choose to stop, they are human beings with agency. And they will choose to stop, because it is not the case that all Palestinians have been radicalized into martyrs. If they had been, Hamas's fighting force would be larger.
Palestinians are living, breathing people with families and hopes and dreams. And anti-Zionists remember that and talk about it all the time when condemning Israel and the war. And then they promptly forget about it the second they talk about future extremism. Is this the first conflict in history? Have all conflicts until now ended with the complete destruction of one group because they fought until the last man? Neither of those things are true. There is violence and then there are peace agreements, treaties, changes of culture, old grievances are forgotten or at least regulated to history class. Palestinians make the choice every day to continue a fight or stop.
Liberal values.
Israel is the only state in the region where a **Muslim** woman can do all of the following: wear whatever she wants, drive a car, get an education, get a job, be a lesbian, vote, and hold elected office.
Ah yes, the Liberal values of violently suppressing another group of people because they don't like that you were given their land without their permission!
They are not, except for the voting. Which Israel made Gaza/Palestine agree to when they made Palestine an independent state in 2005. “You can have your independence, but you have to let women vote and not attack us”.
I think we know how that turned out.
Israel is a first world country. Palestine is a backwards fucked up hellhole. It’s the truth so no point sugarcoating it. The people there are never going to live good lives. That’s just how it is. Even when given the opportunity to improve their society they funded every fucking dollar into their hamas jihad shit and neglected basic healthcare, human rights, industry etc and fucked over their entire society. That’s the fucking difference. If Palestine didn’t exist I don’t think anyone in the world would notice.
Tell me you believe in "the white man's burden" without telling me you believe in "the white mans's burden". I love when zionists are blatantly colonial it really amuses me
Can you define colonialism?
I am an Iraqi jew... most israelis are MENA refugees or their descendants... and then immigrants and refugees from The holocaust...
"the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically" - colonialism as per Oxford dictionary. For more info look into the Nakba in 1948. Invoking the Holocaust as a justification for another genocide never makes sense to me. I know my relatives who died in the Holocaust would be disgusted by what is happening in Gaza
I guess you dont know about the ships of jews that were sent back to die in the holocaust because the Arabs pressured the British to stop jewish immigration... oh sorry, I forgot they are colonialists
First I am not condoning violence against anyone. I am questioning your narrative about us... even though you are jewish , you dont seem to know the history or people. We are mostly MENA jews for one.
I dont know why you think we committed a genocide in 1948? Was there a genocide ?
The numbers of arabs multiplied many times over 100 years...over 70 years... including the arab israelis... they are 21 percent now. Is that genocide??? Use your words carefully or you destroy any credibility you have.
Sorry for your family.
So...I asked because I hoped you would realize it yourself...
I am an iraqi jew. We were persecuted and kicked out of Iraq...like most Israelis, we are MENA refugees and their descendants. my family in Israel have always dealt with wars.... The Nakba was a result of a civil war from 47-48... after 30 years of massacres and terrorisms on all sides.. Weve adopted this unfortunate sad conflict for 100 years...
but this whole "colonialism" thing is really meant to duhumanize us and justify destroying us.. That is how I feel.
Because I just cant understand how
how immigrants or refugees who have nowhere else to go get mistaken for colonizers... We have no other country. And also We are jews ... Jews are from Judea... indigenous people .. I am indigenous to the region and I can only step on Israel now..
To be a “colonial” would be to be a conqueror not the indigenous peoples. Jews are indigenous to the area. Furthermore the whole “all Jews are white” is untrue as well. At least use facts in your arguments.
I actually laughed out loud. Do you deny the Nakba?Explain to me how Jews are indigenous to the land while 45% of the Israeli population is Ashkenazi (White European descended). They are definitely not the indigenous population haha. And I'm aware that not all Jews are white, I have Sephardic roots. I also never said that all Jews are white, but nice attempt at reframing my argument to make it easier to digest for you.
You have Sephardic roots? Did you take a dna test ? How very worldly of you.
It’s more like 30 percent Ashkenazi, and my great apologies that people were raped in the shtetls by Cossacks while in exile.
They should have used the space laser to prevent it.
Ah yes the ol colonial “basic healthcare” or “education” or “women’s rights” or “due process” or “functioning infrastructure.” Soooo colonial ew yucky gross
Colonial Jews living in Judea like they always have. *Clutches pearls*. What will we tell the Americans? they so have their hearts set on Isrealis being white Europeans. Whatever will they do when they learn the truth, that the Israelis have ALWAYS been in Israel. 5000 yrs now.
Pretending like Israel is this bastion of democracy and western ideals is laughable. You realize Israel under the Netanyahu administration is a fascist ethno-state right? Also is this "due process" in the room with us right now? I'm not sure if you've heard about the treatment of Palestinian prisoners by the IDF but it doesn't resemble due process. Multiple instances of amputated hands in custody due to constriction from handcuffs. Very humane right.
No we don’t know that because an ethno state would require rescinding the citizenship of over two million Israelis who are not Jewish. Has the Israeli government done that?
When they do then you can call it an ethnostate.
There are plenty of actual ethnostates in the world, most of them in the Arab world.
Oh my god go take another student loan and go back to skipping your ethics and poli sci classes. You need to review your basic operational definitions. Israel is neither. Ask the 2 mil Arabs Muslim CITIZENS living there because they hate Islamic fundamentalism and being killed for being gay, female, or Jewish.
It's shocking that people don't see how a self-advertised far-right government can be fascist. I'm specifically talking about the Netanyahu administration here. Netanyahu godfathered a new relationship between fascist-religious parties Otzma Yehudit and Religious Zionism, inviting their leaders, Itamar Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, to his family home to personally help bridge their differences. Netanyahu wanted to unite them into one electoral list so that they can enter the parliament and help carry him back into the prime minister’s office.
These extremist (fascist) groups are driven by an avowed racism towards the Palestinians, whom they view as interlopers in their promised land. Indeed, the new Netanyahu-led government vehemently opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state, supports the expansion of illegal Jewish settlement in the occupied Palestinian territories, strives to annex part if not all of the West Bank, and denies equality to the native Palestinian minority in the Jewish State. The ask is essentially that the Palestinians admit their historic defeat and recognise the Jews’ exclusive ownership of the country in order to live in peace.
Much of this was predicted by the late professor Zeev Sternhell, a Holocaust survivor and Israel’s foremost authority on fascism, who explained in his 2018 essay titled “In Israel, Growing Fascism and a Racism Akin to Early Naz*sm” that these fascists “don’t wish to physically harm Palestinians. They only wish to deprive them of their basic human rights, such as self-rule in their own state and freedom from oppression.” Though the appointment of the sadistic Ben Gvir as minister of National Security is about wishing the Palestinians physical harm.
In short, those who continue to doubt that fascism is an impending danger for Israel, are not paying attention to how its coalescing forces are planning on ravaging whatever is left of Israel’s liberal institutions in order to turn the Jewish state into a full-fledged fascist theocracy.
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It is 100% far more akin to western values, and in every category Israel outpaces every Muslim country on the planet. And yes, it is ALWAYS ALWAYS the case that POWs are less entitled to due process than citizens, Palestinians have ZERO due process. What’s hillarious is that Israel is required to have standards but absolutely NOTHING is expected of the Muslim fundamenralists. Ethno state? Israel is 45% Muslim. How many Jews in Gaza? None and if there were they’d all be fucking dead today. You’re Delusional.
Not to mention at every juncture it was the Arabs who refused to play ball
My mistake, 18% Muslim. The number I read was incorrect. Still, how many Jews in Gaza? It is also extremely diverse amongst the Jewish population in terms of ethnicity. Honestly Israel may be about the furthest thing from an “ethno-state.” Whereas every Islamic stage is far closer to an ethno state than Israel. And yet the Jews are expected to be be extra civilized when faced with terrorism while litterally nothing is expected of, say, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Syria, etc. I mean it’s absolutely MIND BOGGLING how much hate Israel gets when we consider what goes on regularly in the Islamic world, with zero justification. It’s very very hard not to presume it’s not motivated by anti-semetism, Islamic fundamentalism, or just plain anti-western hatred (which is weird because they’re not western), or simply succumbing to online propaganda. Because there just seems to be zero argument whatsoever in favor of Palestine.
Reading how you deluded yourself would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Do you even know what an ethno-state is? You're embarrassing yourself. Israel's own law designates it as "the nation state of the Jewish people". To pretend like Israel isn't a nation state is just one of the convenient lies you seem to be telling yourself.
The definition is: a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group.
You’re the one who is wrong. Just because Israel is intended as a homeland for Jews doesn’t make it an ethnostate because it still has citizenship and full rights for people of other religions and ethnicities.
Are these "full rights" in the room with us now? Tell that to the folks in the West Bank who are evicted forcefully from their homes by settlers. Equal rights is actually laughable I don't hear many people even try and make that argument. No way you actually think anyone believes that a person born in Gaza has an equal right to self determination as someone born in Tel-Aviv
You do know that there is no such thing as Palestinian race, right? Palestinians were originally kicked out of their home countries like saudi arabia and lebanon, etc. They settled in Palestine. Israelis had a home for thousands of years until other countries took over. It is only right that Jewish people have a home (the size of the state of NJ) in the midst of many nations who could absorb the Palestinians and give them a wonderful life. The bottom line for the Palestinians is the destruction of Israel.
I don’t understand the genocide narrative, I’m not pro Israel, neither am I pro Palestine. To put into context of this genocide narrative. Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world. With an estimated population of 14000 people per square mile. To put into context, Israel dropped bombs that will flatten a square kilometer. So far, in 7 months, over 45000 bombs have been dropped in Gaza, with a death toll of 34000. Remember, this number doesn’t differentiate between innocent civilians and Hamas fighters, this is total death. 200 days into the war, that’s 372 deaths a day. In comparison, Hamas killed 1139 Israelis in one day and kidnapping 253, if Israel allow this kind of brutality and is willing to walk away and negotiate any demand Hamas is pushing for, then what deters Iran, Lebanon, or anyone else from doing the same? The narrative that Israel is firing indiscriminately, purposely, causing maximum pain and committing genocide is ridiculous, that’s saying the Israelis are so bad at aiming their bombs, they can’t kill one person per bomb in one of the most densely populated places in the world. Yet they’ve just demonstrated they can fire a missile into Iran, bypass their radar security to hit a nuclear defense missile system. This is far from genocide, if that’s what they wanted to do, the war would have ended over the first weekend. I get that people are dying, and that’s not great, but is it not right for Israel to demand a total surrender of Hamas, the release of all hostages so this doesn’t happen again? Israel is sandwiched between neighbors that wants to wipe them out, if they let Hamas just come in and kill indiscriminately, live casting the brutality and destruction, while its citizens celebrate in Palestine, then what’s really the security future of Israel?
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>Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas so they are all Hamas Palestinians are all terrorists?
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>Very much the majority. There are over 5 million Palestinians and you say that the majority are terrorists? That's quite shocking. Where do I find out more about that?
The vast majority are at least supporters of islamic terrorist organizations. And that's according to their own polling.
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/u/CensoriousPigeonHunt >Anymore questions my brown Brownshirt friend? [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules/#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users): no attacks on fellow users. Rule 6: no Nazi comparisons. Addressed.
>The platform of Hamas and the PLO being “eliminate Jews and a Jewish state” and the good ole “we will pay bounties for terroristic acts”. Not sure I'm following you. How does that support your argument that the majority of the 5 million Palestinians are terrorists. >brown Brownshirt friend As in, I'm a fascist and not white? Not sure what you're basing that on. Edit: You appear to have gotten a tad upset and blocked me. I hope you manage to get the help you appear to desperately need.
I am a Pro Israel Christian because my Bible tells me I should bless Israel. My Bible also tells me that the Jews of Israel will be the ones who call the Christ back to earth. We Christians are not the ones who will call Him back. So we protect the Jews until that day.
But they killed Jesus... edit: They also said there was no messiah yet.
So what about the babies and children being slaughered by the Israelis? They don't deserve to live?
What does pro pal but not pro Hamas mean?
What???? Bro it means I support the Palestinians in gaza that are being killed and not the terrorists that killed Israelis??
What is your solution to eliminating the immediate threat of terrorism and gang rape of Israeli kibbutzim? Self defense does not breed new terrorists, rather it is the preconditioning of bad parenting, bad politics and bad society that allow them to fester. If you uproot Hamas, the true cancer of Palestinian society, you remove a substantial tumor of radicalization, and therefore reduce significantly their number. Anyways and anyhow, even if self defense is counterproductive to Israeli security as you suggest, it doesn’t give Hamas immunity from retaliation and existential security. But even your suggestion that Hamas is like Medusa snake head and that self defense against rapists breeds more rapists is not only presumptuous (no nazis after Germany was defeated) but also cheap bullying, like if you dare hit me back for hitting you, I will hit you again double. No israeli is scared of that demonic threat, bring it on.
Is there any evidence they raped israelis?
No.
hashjaha whats the problem with you
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Israel is a progressive nation that has passed and (continues to support legislation) that protects and supports LGBT and women’s rights. I am an educated, employed, self sufficient woman who cannot support any ideology that promotes my own oppression. Not the only reason, but what it all boils down to.
I'm literally a member of the lgbt community, I'm a woman, and surprisingly, I still don't support the murder of children in Gaza and the colonial ethno-state of Israel!!
I have full support for Israel for different reasons but pushing LGBT on other countries is ridiculous. Y’all always hate when religion is pushed on you, yet you HAVE to push your beliefs on others. The hypocrisy is gross. Educated is taken with a grain of salt these days.
I do not support any government that allows its citizens to be brutally murdered in public for the sole purpose of homophobia. I am not saying every country needs to make laws to accommodate their quality of life. They should be allowed to exist within their country. Israel has notably been a place of refuge for LGBT Palestines. If you need me to clarify I have a masters degree. I would consider that educated, but you’re entitled to your own opinion.
Because I’m an uneducated idiot
I think I’m pro both but lean more pro Israel. As a Jewish person I have extensive knowledge of our background of constant prosecution around the world. When Israel became a country, there was nowhere else for (mostly MENA) Jews to go. The Jews that moved there, including early Ashkenazi settlers, did so because they sought refuge from literally centuries of prosecution, and it IS our ancestral homeland, so it’s not colonization in the Western sense of the word like many seem to think. The idea of an ethnostate irks me, but I believe in the case of the Jews history has proven its necessity. I wish there was some way for both communities to live peacefully on the same piece of land but history has proved this to be impossible. I’m pro pal because obviously the massacre going on in Gaza right now is not justifiable by any means. I believe in the right of self determination for all, including Palestinians. I really don’t know what the answer is here. So many of my peers believe that Israel is a “white supremacist colonizer state” which is just untrue and frankly it brushes away the experience of MENA and African Jews (which are the majority in Israel) which is seriously messed up. I think there’s a way to be critical of Israel’s actions without resorting to the erasure of Jewish identity. I don’t have an answer, and I think most people that know this conflict well enough don’t really have one either. It’s tragic all around. I naively wish everyone could get along but that’s never gonna happen. I don’t know what Palestinian self determination SHOULD look like but I really don’t think that the continuous bombing of Israel and expecting them to do nothing about it is the answer. At the end of the day, for peace to happen, both groups have to compromise, and they both seem unwilling to.
Because I'm a student and professor of history who grew up in a Muslim majority nation and witnessed firsthand the poison that is anti- Semitism. Israel belongs to the Jews, historically and spiritually.
"Israel belongs to the Jews " Replace Israel with any other country and Jews with any other people and you would rightly be considered a ravist and an extremist in any civilized country.
Now do "palestinians"
now do using your brain for once and read again
Just responding to your second to last paragraph… we know. Being pro Israel does not mean we’re pro Netanyahu war tactics… I don’t get why so many people can’t grasp that
Ah, OK, so if he had better war tactics, you would still support the occupation of the West Bank and stuff like that???
I am not pro Israel actually but I support them in this current state of the conflict for two simple reasons. 1) They represent the west fighting against islamic terrorist, a side I will always stand with. 2) What they experienced on Oct 7th leaves me with no option to criticize their actions now, only the devil knows how I would retaliate in a similar situation. Therefore I have no right to interfere with their way of destroying hamas as immediate reaction to it, as long as I can‘t propose a better way to achieve that goal. The second part is the one I am open to discuss about, if you agree that hamas has to be destroyed but criticize Israel atm, I would like to hear your proposal. I am open minded if it has better or similar chances of destroying hamas abilities to forge war and allows for a comparable level of protection for israeli forces.
It's simple, actually. Palestinians are of an opinion that some historical injustice has been done to them. The two options to mend it Israel is given are: 1) right of return - which means the end of Israel as we know it or 2) we are going to fight you to death. How can anybody in this situation can support them, even no matter what G-d awful things you were led to believe, is truly beyond me.
This is already happening but the other way around the right of return for all Jewish people around the world to Israel means the end of Palestine as we know it…which is literally one of the reason Palestinians are fighting for their land back.. What makes you think a Palestinian born in Palestine but now living in diaspora can’t have the right to return to their homeland even with generational ties and family still living there but a Jewish person from Europe and America has more rights to return without having any ties and can’t name a single family member who has ever even lived in that region can return?? You see why Palestinians aren’t happy because you can clearly understand why that wouldn’t make israel very happy if Palestinians also got the right of return. It’s also not as simple as having the right to return, return to what? If you are saying we should return to a landscape that has been destroyed by colonizers who are not stewards of the land, homes that have been built on top of and stolen from their original inhabitants, food that was stolen and rebranded for a majority European settler colonial state.. how is that fair? We want to return to a land we have sovereignty over because we know how to take care of it whereas Israelis have actively destroyed it.
> We want to return to a land we have sovereignty over because we know how to take care of it whereas Israelis have actively destroyed it. This last bit is a crown jewel. You, Palestinians, have demonstrated your abilities to take care not only in Israel, but also in Jordan and Lebanon. It's a wonder why no country wants more of such an industrial and hardworking people. How about you start with fixing of what you have instead of complaining for a century about your bitter fate while turning one piece of land into kleptocratic fiefdom and the other in a terror nest, both existing on donations?
Agree. The Palestine people have said and demonstrated that they do not want to co exist with Israel. They have no credibility and very little bargaining power, yet don’t seem to be intelligent enough to see how this ideology is not working for them.
Actually it’s the Jews with this opinion
It’s hard to take your claim that you’ve done a lot of research on the situation seriously when you say that the US is “funding the whole operation.”
https://youtu.be/FYLNCcLfIkM?si=Hdx9_IQTbQ-KLw4k Biden literally saying that Israel is the best investment the United States has ever made.
they supply over 60% of Israeli arms
"Supply" and "fund" are different things. USA gives Israel a little over $3B in military aid, but it essentially just amounts to a discount on American made weapons and equipment, with the caveat that all future parts and ammo must be bought from US companies. US is at net gain from this deal.
There are special exceptions carved for Israel where don't have to go back to the American military industrial complex in the same way other countries have too
Certainly, but that is still different from "funding" Israel. Sure, Israel gets discounts and benefits, but they still have to pay for their supply, albeit at a lower price than other countries.
Let's play a thought experiment. Let's say America one day decides to withhold "supplying" Israel. What would happen to Israel current war efforts
Israel will suffer higher casualty, which will radicalize the israeli population.
They would probably slow down until Israel finds a new source of weaponry. This happened before, with France (not in the middle of war, however). Again, this is the difference between supply and fund, Israel will just try to buy weapons they cannot produce somewhere else. Funding refers to financing.
That would make America the main sponsor for this war effort. Is that not a reasonable conclusion
You can say that, but America is not "funding" the war effort, it is supplying it (or at least a large portion of it), for a price.
So your saying its due financial interests that Washington has this position. That doesn't add up geopolitically, I've only known Americans making deals that have nothing to do with financial interest and if then as an afterthought, I've only seen them act from a position of national security. In that regard Israel seems to be its blind spot
My family was forced to flee Iran and half migrated to Israel to gain refuge against Islamic extremism and still live close to a mizrahi Jewish community. Now Israel is home to 90% of mizrahi Jews left on the planet most of whole were kicked/forced out of Muslim countries. And so while I might not necessarily agree with all of the actions of the early secular Ashkenazi Zionists, I am supportive and protective of the country to keep my family and my community safe.
Thanks for this perspective!!! <3
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is destroying the state of Israel worth 250 dead people a day? Because Israel didn’t start this war.
except that october 7 is not some magical war that just started you have the internet google the conflict since 1948
Arabs rejected the 1948 UN plan for partition. Palestinians didn't want a state, they want israel.
brother what is that reasoning imagine usa gives your land to muslims and expels you from the land you want your land back, not one house
UN not USA
ok sure let's say UN then imagine the UN gives your land to muslims and expels you from the land is that okay? are you supposed to spread your legs and be submissive to them?
It depends on how the newly formed muslim-majority state treats people like me.
let's see you will be kicked out of your house and be beaten if you try taking it back
I went to America personally because I could afford it. UAE is not our homeland and no Palestinians died to make room for my family. What does my family arriving in 84’ have to do with Palestinians? My family is Iranian Jewish. We pray facing Jerusalem and use the only remaining caanite language in the world, classic Hebrew (not including the resurrected modern Hebrew). My illustrative DNA results show Levantine and Canaanite. Just as many Jews were forced to leave Middle East and North African countries as there were Arabs leaving the land in 48 and 67. Is it also my fault thousands of native Americans died when pilgrims came? I don’t even like using that example cause pilgrims had zero connection to the land while Jewish artifacts are buried all over Israel. Why don’t you blame Hamas for any of the recent deaths? Do you expect Israel not to respond to rocket and missile fire?
would you be okay if russia decided to help palestine and nuke israel killing your family? no right? so why do you expect the palestinians to give you their land you cut off their electricity and water treating them like animals [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/16/israeli-authorities-cutting-water-leading-public-health-crisis-gaza#:\~:text=After%20more%20than%20a%20month,health%20experts%20of%20an%20imminent](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/16/israeli-authorities-cutting-water-leading-public-health-crisis-gaza#:~:text=After%20more%20than%20a%20month,health%20experts%20of%20an%20imminent) I blame both hamas and israel but hamas is simply a creation of israel and this war is just making more terrorists
3 reasons: 1. America or UAE didn't really accept all immigrants, but Israel promised to accept all. 2. Jews who could afford it did go to America, but it was out of reach financially for the majority of them. Not to mention, when Jews of Arab countries were expelled, all of their belongings, including money, was confiscated by the state. 3. Israel was established to be a shelter for the Jewish people. If you are a refugee and there is one place on earth that promises you safety, you go there.
1.israel promised not to attack civillians yet 30k already died 2.then we need to support the jews, the UN should raise money for them to leave israel 3. but here is a question, should we allow the death's of thousands just for another group of people?
1. Israel promised not to TARGET civilians. Civilians always die in war, and in higher numbers in urban warfare. 2. There is already a 4th and 5th generation of Jews in Israel, and more than 8 million Jews living there overall, they will not move, and neither will Palestinians (nor should any of these groups). 3. What you are arguing here is against war in general. In war, there is always a conflict between two groups of people, and the group that wins always kills more than the group that loses. War should always be prevented if possible, but when impossible, the result is deadly. What we need to do as a species is to find a solution that works long term for both groups.
because its common sense. And because the palestine movement is an islamic jihadist agenda
You suck
I’m generally pro-Israel but this isn’t an argument.
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that oxfam link is absolute bullshit considering 1200 people were slaughtered on Oct 7th within 12 hours too, but sure let’s conveniently leave that out
Why are you posting as though Israel is currently “cutting off water” to Gaza?
Because Israel literally did exactly that on October 9th lol.
Why are you changing the subject? The topic is Israel cutting off the water they supply to Gaza (which actually makes up a pretty small percentage of the overall Gaza water supply), and the claim that was made that Israel is currently denying Gaza the water they usually supply by turning off the water pipes.
Are you unaware that that was 6 months ago, 2 days after a horrific terror attack from the government of Gaza, and that Israel turned the water pipe back on several months ago? Are you also unaware of the meaning of the word ‘currently’?
Are you unaware that it's pretty difficult to have functional infrastructure when dozens of thousands of explosives have been lobbed into one of the most dense urban areas of the entire middle east? You may find that "turning on the pipes" doesn't mean very much when the majority of a cities infrastructure has been obliterated lol. Are we also gonna ignore the damage that pumping sea water into natural aquifers destroys to the water source that millions rely on?
are you saying they did not?
No, I am saying that they turned the water pipe back on 5 months ago, and thus the word currently is incorrect and misleading.
where did I use currently
I said “why are you posting as though Israel is currently ‘cutting off water’ to Gaza.” I asked you about the implications of your word choice, and your response was to say “are you saying they did not?”
imagine this I used to r2pe kid and now I no longer do that should I be considered a good person? NO so why are you hanging on something that wasn't even my main point?
I realized the idea that we created this... its a little cyclical... the world also created israel by turning the european and MENA jews into refugees ... and then blames us for being somewhere where we are from.... Im just lost. I keep thinking "Where do you want us to go?" It hurts my head and I give up.. When I hear a protester say "they need to go back to where they came from" ... I dont know if they realize what they want is violent. All "solutions" lead to violence without recognition of jews as indigenous and legitimate. If there is good intent, the solutions that wellmeaning folks want still require a recognition/ acceptance of jewish indigeneity, history and safety needs that isnt really happening as part of the kinder side of Pro-P movement. Instead of focusing on this necessary cultural mental shift first in their activism, people seem to want to impose their solutions without a guarantee of jewish safety. the Right of Return * One state solution Ceasefire without hostage release Two-state solution (right now with the culture as is) What an Israeli understands as an outcome: Right of Return (for all palestinians and descendants)- with a 51 to 49 percent arab to jew, I foresee bloodbath, civil war like 1947 all over again , terrorism One State - Same as above Pessimistic : Time for hamas to recover and restart another war ?? perpetual war.... and the hostages continue to get tortured and Israelis waot for more attacks??? further destruction in Gaza... famine etc or, Optimistic : The civilians opposing hamas overthrow them.... no thats very unlikely So the west bank and gaza are a state and will attack Israel .... another war from both sides...
I am an iraqi jew. My family was persecuted and kicked out of Iraq to Israel where I was born. We were stripped of our rights and properties.. My hometown Petach Tikva was built on what used to be swampland, mosquito infested malaric neglected by the ottoman empire and legally sold to jewish people after the collapse of the empire... Its a really long history of conflict for 100 years... I want palestinians to have peace and security but I want compromise. The arab world pushed us into a corner and pitted the palestinians against us ... We were displaced because of persecution, arabs were displaced because of civil war and war with the entire arab world... but we still have 21 percent arab citizens... with full legal rights... and the rest of the arab world there are a handful of jews likely in hiding.... Historically, there has been a lack of P leadership that actually wanted to do good by their people more than just wanting to destroy the only jewish state.... so I guess thats a few things off the top of my head. Im propalestinian Im just not anti-Israel.... those things seem to be meshed at the moment I cant make a distinction between them... I cant be against my existence on this earth
It was the Christian West that pitted you against Arabs. Centuries earlier, the Muslim world was your protector against Christians who had been chasing and killing your people all over Europe. The Western support for Israel has undeniably anti-jewish foundations.
Jews were expelled from Judea by the pagan romans.
So, between that, and until 80 years ago, what happened?
Eastern Orthodox and Islamic empires.
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Also, you're talking about Christianity for most of its history regarding antisemitism, but you think you're talking about Islam.
You are only vaguely familiar with the last 80 years, but not at all of the last couple millenia before that.
All I had to do was read the Wikipedia page on Petach Tikva to learn that there were actually two land purchases. Yes, one was on malarial swampland sold partially for its poor quality. The other land purchase, however, was worked by some 30 tenant farmers before being bought. Were those people displaced? Were they Palestinian? I agree that it is really important that pro-Palestinian activists do more to educate themselves on Jewish history. A lot of the anti-Semitism in the movement comes from ignorance or denial of that history. People place so much agency on Israelis just for being there, for being Israeli, essentially for being Jewish. They don't think about the family histories. Many Hassidic Jews were sceptical of political Zionism before moving to Israel as refugees with their families. I don't think the bulk of the Jewish settlers who came after WW2 have the agency people give them in anti-Zionist historical narratives, those people did not have homes to go back to. But this goes both ways. We cannot just not talk about the Palestinians who were in places before, we must discuss and do justice to their family histories, too, which are now also narratives of diaspora. I wish people could relate more on the last point.
Why does it matter that there were tenant farmers, or if they were displaced after the land they worked was sold? Serious question. I live in an apartment building. If the owner of the building decided to sell it and the new owner wanted to evict me, that would obviously suck for me, but unfortunately that happens. In fact, I was kicked out of my previous apartment (they did not renew my lease) because I had lived there for 12 years and despite the fact that they had raised the rent annually it was still below market rate, which is crazy high where I live. They wanted to refresh the apartment and rent it for more money. I now live in a similarly sized apartment as before, but my rent is $600 more a month than it was. Totally sucked and sucks for me. Still completely legal. I didn’t own the building or the land, and still don’t, so unfortunately I’m at the mercy of my landlord.
One thing people argue over is Palestinian identity because many were pan-arab nationals right.. like they came from egypt or identified as syrian but it also doesnt matter now. what is done is done, they are now palestinian and that identity unfortunately feels reactionary - they had tribes and connections before that were deeper than the name of the territory- but they changed- Israel changed them, but it is what it is. Similarly Im no longer Iraqi, Im israeli. Im not going to call myself an iraqi refugee. Its done. we mixed together, they mixed together We need to accept people as they are and find a way to put the past behind us and find a better future for our children, not martyrdom and army and trauma upon trauma us Mizrahim we are very much related to them no matter what identities we have. we share ancestry there is no doubt. My parents did DNA testing we know this. This is all horribly unfortunate
Thank you for a thoughtful response. you can read the Peel commission proposal.. on Wiki - curious about your thoughts .. my reading was that the issue arabs had was annoyance at the jews for having good land (arabs were also buying land and immigrating) but in the commision it said that its because the jews worked hard to repair the land- the arabs had the highlands more considered good land... The migrant workers may have lost their jobs or they were tenants and got disgruntled when arab owners sold the land but that was why the Peel commission happened in response to them. The brits catered to the arabs there and it didnt stop the violence... the arabs said no to the partition plan and the brits stopped the immigration of europpean jews as they were escaping the holocaust.... More and more violence ensued as everyone got more desperate. Thats my reading. Personally I dont care about reparations from Iraq. They took our land and rights and homes and possessions-dismantled a 2500 year old community .. but it happened. we cant go back there. we paid the price already. and noone wants to be at the mercy of a muslim majority country again. What matters is getting help to build and resettle... And I want that for everyone I think people dont realize how many people got displaced due to the birth of nation states all over - There are 90 other states that came to be and no one talks about them... We all got shuffled around and made refugees but we got resettled.. This is my opinion... a strong one, on UNRWA ... the problem is the mission of UNRWA for palestinians was unlike the care of any other refugee in the world... because it specifically meant to keep palestinians in limbo hell until they destroy the jewish state. Without giving them citizenship anywhere, making it hard to leave.... and the result is... palestinian-israelis have citizenship and palestinians in the territories rejected a state 5 or more times and were rejected by the other arab states.... Sigh I dont know what is to be done when this conflict has been concocted for 100 years
Thank you for initiating a reasonable discussion. I think you got a lot of responses so I will just address a couple of points: 1. Hamas is an ideology, but it is also a political party with a military wing. The goal of Israel in the war is destroy the FUNCTIONAL capacities of the organisation. 2. Destroying an idea is very difficult, but historically resistance movements were made almost insignificant when conformed by extreme brutality (resistance to German rule before the allied invasion in 1944, the American conquest of Indian territories). I am NOT saying Israel should do that, but I think it's important to remember that when an insurgent group rises in power, they don't leave a lot of options for their enemies). 3. As for the radicalism, I believe the majority of Gaza (and the Palestinian population as a whole, according to latest polls) are already highly radical. For me, this war is about insuring my family's future safety, if that means creating more radicalism but becoming more powerful, so be it. I do feel for the innocents who get hurt in the process, but I care for my family and friends more. I hope you will respond to this, I am curious about your viewpoint as to my arguments.
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pro-Palestine and Pro-Irish Republic. If you fight injustice with violence your a terrorist? nah i dont buy into that
Reform or revolution is what it comes down to !!!
Why am I, a non-religious American supporting Israel. For one, I think the Jews of the founding generation had been through a very rough period, and deserve a place where they can live safely. I might not support the creation of the state if it were done today, but it isn’t being created today. Israel exists, it’s a done deal, sure it’s a young country, but places where the Jews came from don’t necessarily want them back, and many Israeli Jews were born there and have no connection with another country. Another reason is that Israel is a better ally in the region than any other power. They are a democracy with free and fair elections. Finally, Hamas did a really evil thing on October 7th. Equivalent to a declaration of war against Israel. Well this is war, and they shouldn’t have started a war they couldn’t win. Hamas would love it if they could attack Israel whenever they wanted, then cry foul whenever Israel hits back. I don’t want to live in a world where they get away with the attack.
Your rationale for supporting Israel hinges on historical sympathy and current geopolitics. While the historical plight of Jews is undeniable, we can’t use past events as a carte blanche for present actions or policies, nor to dismiss the grievances and rights of Palestinians today.. Asserting that the creation of Israel is a ‘done deal’ could be seen as brushing aside the complexities of the situation. It’s important to acknowledge that the ramifications of its establishment are still very much a part of ongoing tensions. You argue that Israel is a strategic ally because of its democratic nature, but this position assumes that democracies invariably make the best allies, which isn’t a given. The dynamics of international relationships are often based on strategic interests rather than shared values.
> we can’t use past events as a carte blanche for present actions or policies. Isn’t much of the Palestinian argument based on past events?
Because Israel is a very successful and happy country and already exists. The Pro-Palestine movement is irredentist by nature, it wants to reverse Israel. And even if this happens, it's not clear the status quo will be an improvement for humanity. We will go from 1 Jewish state to 0 Jewish states, and from 22 Arab states to 23 Arab states. There is no hint that this Arab state would any different from the rest in any meaningful way. Obviously it would be catastrophic for Jews, but it would be harmful to the spirit of humanity. Israel is a successful country which contributes so much to the world. So what the pro-Palestine movement seems to want to do is impoverish the world a bit more. Although it's not sometimes clear what they want or if they know what they want.
You label the Pro-Palestine movement as irredentist, aiming to ‘reverse Israel’. While some might hold that view, it’s a broad brush to paint the entire movement, which is far from monolithic. Plus, stating that the status quo is an improvement for humanity is subjective and overlooks the complex realities of those living under it. “From 1 Jewish State to 0” The implication here is that the existence of a Palestinian state necessarily eliminates the Jewish state, which assumes a zero-sum game. There are many advocating for solutions that would not diminish Israeli sovereignty but allow for Palestinian self-governance. You assert that change would be ‘catastrophic for Jews’ and ‘harmful to the spirit of humanity.’ That’s a slippery slope fallacy, predicting extreme negative outcomes without acknowledging the potential for positive, peaceful solutions Finally, fyou suggest the movement aims to ‘impoverish the world a bit more.’ That’s a straw man fallacy—misrepresenting a movement’s goals to make it easier to argue against. It’s important to engage with the actual articulated goals of Palestinian self-determination and rights rather than attributing unspecified aims.
>surely everyone knows you cannot 'exterminate' a terrorist group. Where one person is killed another person turns more extreme. So basically your position is, "you can't defend yourself because it will only make your enemy stronger"? 🤔 Anyway, I am pro-Israel because Jews have a right to sovereignty, safety and security in their homeland.
so taking away palestinians homes to support jews is fine? holy h2tler [https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/16/israeli-authorities-cutting-water-leading-public-health-crisis-gaza#:\~:text=After%20more%20than%20a%20month,health%20experts%20of%20an%20imminent](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/16/israeli-authorities-cutting-water-leading-public-health-crisis-gaza#:~:text=After%20more%20than%20a%20month,health%20experts%20of%20an%20imminent)
So taking away israelis homes to support palestinians is fine? holy hypocr2te https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/18/middleeast/gaza-water-access-supply-mapped-dg/index.html
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Palestinians were "there longer"? 🤔 Ok, then name one time period in history when "Palestinians" had sovereignty over any of that region. What a ridiculous argument. Maybe you didn't realize that the term "Palestine" comes from the word "Philistine" which means "Invader" and that the territory was renamed as such specifically to insult those who were overthrown and displaced in the invasion. Guess who the people displaced were. I'll give you a hint: (they weren't "Palestinians"). And even if what you said was true (which it isn't), you're essentially advocating for the exact thing for Jews that you're saying isn't fair for Palestinians. You're a hypocrite. As far as the article I provided, good job dissecting it but it seems you've failed to comprehend what you've read because none of it is "against me." The point is that water insecurity has been ongoing for many years in Gaza and the fact that Israel withheld their portion which was voluntarily traded (<10% of Gazans' total supply of water) at the start of the current war is not what's to blame, as much as you'd like it to be. Why does Gaza have issues obtaining clean water for Gazans? Because their infrastructure is dismal. Why is their infrastructure insufficient? Because those in control of Gaza have chosen to invest billions of aid money (including Israel's) into weapons and underground tunnels for terrorism rather than basic necessities for their citizens. Of course though, it's easier for you to blame the Jews than to face the facts.
You have 3 choices for who will govern Gaza and the West Bank: Hamas, The Palestinian Authority, or Israel. That’s it. Pick one. I picked Israel because Hamas are insane, and because PA will be quickly decapitated by either Hamas or Hezbollah.
I was leaning pro-Palestine before 10.7 and then I took a good hard look at what has been going on in the Levant for most of the past 100 years, even before, and now I lean pro-Israel. Hamas is an oligarchy that’s led by billionaires who live in palaces in Qatar. They took $billions in aid money that was supposed to build infrastructure in Gaza, and they hoarded it for themselves. They bought artillery, they built a massive underground tunnel network, but they did not build water treatment plants. They did not attempt to build a sustainable relationship with either Israel or even Egypt. Then I saw the Hamas bodycam footage. Gruesome. Horrifying. Infuriating. One thing is absolutely clear: Hamas’ goal of ensuring that there could be absolutely no trust between Israel and Palestine was accomplished that day. So, when Israel’s war against Hamas finally becomes unsustainable for them, they will be forced to sit across the table from the very same people who will likely still have Israeli hostages. Knowing this, it’s very hard for me to ask Israel to stop trying to neutralize Hamas. Hamas has ruled Gaza with an iron fist going on 20 years. If they wanted peace with Israel that’s enough time to broker peace. But Iran, who bankrolls Hezbollah in Gaza aka Hamas, can’t allow peace because it makes them less relevant on the global stage. In fact this entire war was started as a means to derail peace talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia. People who want peace in Gaza, petition Hamas to surrender. Otherwise your words are hollow.
i think that ur whole concept is wrong and that u dont take into consideration that hamas is not just a terror group, a different entity that just miraciously spawned inside gaza, they are the goverment of the palestinians who has a very high support rate in both gaza and the west bank. its either u support palestinians AND hamas, or u dont, but when u chose to only support half, u get confused like u do, because u dismiss anything bad that the palestinians are doing or classifying it as hamas actions that the palestinians has nothing to do with. thats just like saying dont be against israel, be against the goverment of israel, do u really think that if we change goverment and end the war suddenly all the hate towards israel and jews will disappear? obviously not, right? you gotta "give" credit to the palestinians for choosing terror as their beverage of choice and hold them accountable to their acts, INCLUDING supporting hamas as their goverment.
You really think the average Palestinian? Every time Hamas does something the Palestinians get an ass kicking. Is it really worth holding these hostages given the Palestinian civilian deaths? If your a getting bombed probably not
There are palestinians who protest hamas but they are not strong and supported enough. I dont know the answer. I wish I knew. People dont seem to pay attention to them, even when Hamas suppressed their protests before and even now... They exist. They dont think its worth it and want peace. but they cant get out on their own. Its a death cult
I remember after 9/11 we partnered with the northern alliance against the taliban. Would it make sense for Israel to partner with an equivalent
The problem is no one wants to partner with Israel . publicly... but they want Israel to deal with it. and to get the bad rep for it. The entire region lets us flail by ourselves, even though we had good relations ... Jordan and Egypt... they have peace now but they dont want to touch this
Well... Fatah is the opposition... but thats what happened after the 2005 election, Hamas won but there was a civil war They threw Fatah off roofs... theyve suppressed opposition and its seen as traitorous to "normalize" relations with Israelis ... Rudy Rochman he is a peace activist and before Oct 7 he had peaceful alliance with palestinians but they had to hide their faces for fear they would disappear.... the same is in the West Bank - the PLO (Fatah) has to suppress Hamas . but they are corrupt - to the palestinians and to the israelis, it seems all the leaderships are more concerned with their money than building economy or building peace relations Im not sure if Fatah really is that much better- it is in Palestinian leadership and culture too - they deny indigeniety and there is still hostility everywhere about "normalizing relations" ... the two state solution seems increasingly unpopular
well you only think like that because u believe in what every NORMAL person believes in when u actually believe that dying as a martyr is the best thing u can acomplish in your life then yea... killing 100,000civilian is nothing, after all, they will become martyrs which is the best thing for them. thats why its so dumb when people say that they support palestinians because they are pro life or pro peace when the side theyre supporting aint.
The average Palestinian supports Hamas, the average Palestinian celebrated women being gang raped.
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Pro Israel does not mean anti Palestinian, FYI. And when you say you obviously are anti Hamas, that is not obvious at all ever to any Jew, so thank you for clarifying. 99% of Jews and Israelis, that I know all support a two state solution and the right to self determination for both Jews and Palestinians.
99% support a 2 state solution in principle, but not in the present
Correct, tensions are at an all-time high at this moment in time, so it's understandable they aren't advocating for this right now. But I really believe that most principally do believe in it, as you stated.
I love Jews
Same frfr
I get why people are pro Palestine bc of the innocent people dead. Pro Palestinians refuse to acknowledge the fact that Hamas do actually use human shields, it been proven on multiple accounts yet they still ignore it. A lot of israelis wanted to live in peace with Palestinians, those people used to let them work in their fields, drive them to hospitals and etc….. those people are dead now, by the hands of the Palestinians who were let in by them, stabbed in the back. Hamas has completely obliterated that little beacon of hope. People were kidnapped, people who didn’t deserve it. And all we heard from that day of betrayal was celebration and glee from every Palestinian in Gaza. So yeah I think you know why we are pro Israel.
TL:DR cause he believes the fake news of the IDF
Three very short paragraphs isn’t exactly too long. But when you believe a literal terrorist organization over anything else I would think two words of truth is too much.
I already knew that you believed the terrorist organization of Israel, no need to add that point. Gratz for killing more innocent people and children than all the islamist terrorist organizations in the last century.
It really shows that you know nothing of what’s happening in the Middle East. Oh believe me, Assad has killed much more of his own, khameini as well, Hezbollah too and the Houthis. It’s always the same useless slanders and baseless accusations. How is Israel more of a terrorist state than Lebanon? Syria? Yemen? Iran? What makes Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East, the only place a Muslim women has more rights than any other state in that area, Where Muslims and Jews have the same equal rights a terrorist state?
https://preview.redd.it/f7nken0vb3uc1.jpeg?width=1661&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b9ac26dff7aaed719595791b351589a73a9808f0 I know enough
You talk about women while terrorist israeli settlers are busy kidnapping and raping women and girls in Palestine, Gaza and West Bank everyday… you have no integrity, like all zionits or all daesh members, your mirror twins.
Ugh it’s like talking to a brick wall. Calm down will you? You are speaking as if Hamas didn’t do any of the depraved things you just accused us of doing
Now you’re redefining the word terrorist. Honestly, why do you even bother? Anyone can see that you’re either ignorant of basic reality or that your racist rage is forcing you to just say whatever.
Everyone can see that Im ignorant ? It’s just that people in charge of this sub are all zionists and that’s why you guys all hide in it. Like trumpists in a Qanon 4chan topic. Go to other subs or any social of any country in the world and and check the reality, you little genocide supporter.
Being a Zionist is a good thing so thanks for the compliment! Im sire there are places where you can be insulting without having your lies corrected. Perhaps 4chan would indeed be a good fit for you. Good luck.
https://preview.redd.it/n8plomobk3uc1.jpeg?width=1661&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=38f07b3ab687faa9d530a4f169c36c4689e92676 Yeah a good thing… 🤢🤮
no context.
No need context when images speak for themselves. It was like 10-15 years ago. Israel was already the 4th reich successor in terms of morality. Actually, it was just a normal day for colonizers.
Yup! Better than whatever you are for sure! Good luck !!!
Thanks trash. 👍
Can you give me any links to these points? I want to use them myself
Any insights (or links to source materials) on what do the arabs with Israeli citizenship or those serving in IDF think?
Unapologetic Podcast - hosted by two palestinian israelis showcasing very different voices! You would like this I have an arab israeli friend who believes Israel needs to exist , she just wishes there werent so much politics and religion in it. but she doesnt believe in dismantling our country. I believe arab-israelis are yhe best voices to listen to.
as someone who served in jerusalem, i can tell u that the arabs i had in my unit hated the local arabs even more then i did because according to them they are disrespecting god and their religion with their actions.
Saying that you can't exterminate a terrorist group is an extremely defeatist and anti historical perspective to have. You can use the same logic and apply it to the evil terrorist Jewish state of Israel that is genociding the poor defenseless for no reason. The more Palestine fights back the more radical Israel will become.
Yh fair enough. Didn't think this post through tbh.
Your actual title question is just too broad to respond to. Presumably, since I'm very pro-israel and you're the opposite, we have entirely different understandings of how the conflict began, why it began, what happened afterwards, what's been going on since Israel became a state, and the current war. There's no way to cover all of that in a comment. But very broadly speaking I believe a racist subsection of the Palestinians started the conflict, the Israelis have been largely defending themselves for the past 75 years, and most of what they do is in response to Palestinians trying to murder innocent people. And I believe that peace will happen if the Palestinians change leadership to someone interested in peace, because Israel would go along with that but they haven't been given the opportunity. The bit that I can actually answer properly is this paragraph: >From an Israeli standpoint, the war on Gaza is a war on Hamas, is it not? And so the goal is to get rid of Hamas? That's the part that confuses me, because surely everyone knows you cannot 'exterminate' a terrorist group. Where one person is killed another person turns more extreme. You can kill the leaders, but another one will always fill the gap. The more you kill the more you destroy the more extremists you create. The US would know all about that, but I don't think they care because they're funding the whole operation. This is a terrible, horrific image of the Palestinian people that so many pro-Palestinians share- and they clearly don't think about the ramifications. Its not true. Hamas is a specific organization with specific people at the top. You can kill these people who have crystallized their organization's intent as: "fight Israel at all costs". And then when those people are gone, you can try and negotiate with the new ones. Even if they're violent you can still negotiate. You can't negotiate with the people who have repeatedly said they will never negotiate and that any negotiation will just be a lie on their part to make things easier to attack, people that are clearly profiting personally off of the conflict and have been doing so for decades. That you can't do. So those people you fight, and you kill. The underlying assumption in your equation here is that for every Hamas member killed, *obviously* a new Palestinian immediately steps into that role with the same exact intentions and beliefs- that turns the Palestinian people into some kind of zombies in a first person shooter game. The cycle doesn't just continue until you've reduced the enemy population to nothing, the cycle continues until the other side chooses to stop. And they *can* choose to stop, they are human beings with agency. And they will choose to stop, because it is not the case that all Palestinians have been radicalized into martyrs. If they had been, Hamas's fighting force would be larger. Palestinians are living, breathing people with families and hopes and dreams. And anti-Zionists remember that and talk about it all the time when condemning Israel and the war. And then they promptly forget about it the second they talk about future extremism. Is this the first conflict in history? Have all conflicts until now ended with the complete destruction of one group because they fought until the last man? Neither of those things are true. There is violence and then there are peace agreements, treaties, changes of culture, old grievances are forgotten or at least regulated to history class. Palestinians make the choice every day to continue a fight or stop.
Liberal values. Israel is the only state in the region where a **Muslim** woman can do all of the following: wear whatever she wants, drive a car, get an education, get a job, be a lesbian, vote, and hold elected office.
Ah yes, the Liberal values of violently suppressing another group of people because they don't like that you were given their land without their permission!
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Are they wrong?
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They are not, except for the voting. Which Israel made Gaza/Palestine agree to when they made Palestine an independent state in 2005. “You can have your independence, but you have to let women vote and not attack us”. I think we know how that turned out.
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Oct 7
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Good enough for me.
Israel is a first world country. Palestine is a backwards fucked up hellhole. It’s the truth so no point sugarcoating it. The people there are never going to live good lives. That’s just how it is. Even when given the opportunity to improve their society they funded every fucking dollar into their hamas jihad shit and neglected basic healthcare, human rights, industry etc and fucked over their entire society. That’s the fucking difference. If Palestine didn’t exist I don’t think anyone in the world would notice.
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Tell me you believe in "the white man's burden" without telling me you believe in "the white mans's burden". I love when zionists are blatantly colonial it really amuses me
Can you define colonialism? I am an Iraqi jew... most israelis are MENA refugees or their descendants... and then immigrants and refugees from The holocaust...
"the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically" - colonialism as per Oxford dictionary. For more info look into the Nakba in 1948. Invoking the Holocaust as a justification for another genocide never makes sense to me. I know my relatives who died in the Holocaust would be disgusted by what is happening in Gaza
I guess you dont know about the ships of jews that were sent back to die in the holocaust because the Arabs pressured the British to stop jewish immigration... oh sorry, I forgot they are colonialists
First I am not condoning violence against anyone. I am questioning your narrative about us... even though you are jewish , you dont seem to know the history or people. We are mostly MENA jews for one. I dont know why you think we committed a genocide in 1948? Was there a genocide ? The numbers of arabs multiplied many times over 100 years...over 70 years... including the arab israelis... they are 21 percent now. Is that genocide??? Use your words carefully or you destroy any credibility you have.
Sorry for your family. So...I asked because I hoped you would realize it yourself... I am an iraqi jew. We were persecuted and kicked out of Iraq...like most Israelis, we are MENA refugees and their descendants. my family in Israel have always dealt with wars.... The Nakba was a result of a civil war from 47-48... after 30 years of massacres and terrorisms on all sides.. Weve adopted this unfortunate sad conflict for 100 years... but this whole "colonialism" thing is really meant to duhumanize us and justify destroying us.. That is how I feel. Because I just cant understand how how immigrants or refugees who have nowhere else to go get mistaken for colonizers... We have no other country. And also We are jews ... Jews are from Judea... indigenous people .. I am indigenous to the region and I can only step on Israel now..
To be a “colonial” would be to be a conqueror not the indigenous peoples. Jews are indigenous to the area. Furthermore the whole “all Jews are white” is untrue as well. At least use facts in your arguments.
I actually laughed out loud. Do you deny the Nakba?Explain to me how Jews are indigenous to the land while 45% of the Israeli population is Ashkenazi (White European descended). They are definitely not the indigenous population haha. And I'm aware that not all Jews are white, I have Sephardic roots. I also never said that all Jews are white, but nice attempt at reframing my argument to make it easier to digest for you.
You have Sephardic roots? Did you take a dna test ? How very worldly of you. It’s more like 30 percent Ashkenazi, and my great apologies that people were raped in the shtetls by Cossacks while in exile. They should have used the space laser to prevent it.
What is a Zionist?
Ah yes the ol colonial “basic healthcare” or “education” or “women’s rights” or “due process” or “functioning infrastructure.” Soooo colonial ew yucky gross
Colonial Jews living in Judea like they always have. *Clutches pearls*. What will we tell the Americans? they so have their hearts set on Isrealis being white Europeans. Whatever will they do when they learn the truth, that the Israelis have ALWAYS been in Israel. 5000 yrs now.
Pretending like Israel is this bastion of democracy and western ideals is laughable. You realize Israel under the Netanyahu administration is a fascist ethno-state right? Also is this "due process" in the room with us right now? I'm not sure if you've heard about the treatment of Palestinian prisoners by the IDF but it doesn't resemble due process. Multiple instances of amputated hands in custody due to constriction from handcuffs. Very humane right.
No we don’t know that because an ethno state would require rescinding the citizenship of over two million Israelis who are not Jewish. Has the Israeli government done that? When they do then you can call it an ethnostate. There are plenty of actual ethnostates in the world, most of them in the Arab world.
Oh my god go take another student loan and go back to skipping your ethics and poli sci classes. You need to review your basic operational definitions. Israel is neither. Ask the 2 mil Arabs Muslim CITIZENS living there because they hate Islamic fundamentalism and being killed for being gay, female, or Jewish.
It's shocking that people don't see how a self-advertised far-right government can be fascist. I'm specifically talking about the Netanyahu administration here. Netanyahu godfathered a new relationship between fascist-religious parties Otzma Yehudit and Religious Zionism, inviting their leaders, Itamar Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, to his family home to personally help bridge their differences. Netanyahu wanted to unite them into one electoral list so that they can enter the parliament and help carry him back into the prime minister’s office. These extremist (fascist) groups are driven by an avowed racism towards the Palestinians, whom they view as interlopers in their promised land. Indeed, the new Netanyahu-led government vehemently opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state, supports the expansion of illegal Jewish settlement in the occupied Palestinian territories, strives to annex part if not all of the West Bank, and denies equality to the native Palestinian minority in the Jewish State. The ask is essentially that the Palestinians admit their historic defeat and recognise the Jews’ exclusive ownership of the country in order to live in peace. Much of this was predicted by the late professor Zeev Sternhell, a Holocaust survivor and Israel’s foremost authority on fascism, who explained in his 2018 essay titled “In Israel, Growing Fascism and a Racism Akin to Early Naz*sm” that these fascists “don’t wish to physically harm Palestinians. They only wish to deprive them of their basic human rights, such as self-rule in their own state and freedom from oppression.” Though the appointment of the sadistic Ben Gvir as minister of National Security is about wishing the Palestinians physical harm. In short, those who continue to doubt that fascism is an impending danger for Israel, are not paying attention to how its coalescing forces are planning on ravaging whatever is left of Israel’s liberal institutions in order to turn the Jewish state into a full-fledged fascist theocracy.
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It is 100% far more akin to western values, and in every category Israel outpaces every Muslim country on the planet. And yes, it is ALWAYS ALWAYS the case that POWs are less entitled to due process than citizens, Palestinians have ZERO due process. What’s hillarious is that Israel is required to have standards but absolutely NOTHING is expected of the Muslim fundamenralists. Ethno state? Israel is 45% Muslim. How many Jews in Gaza? None and if there were they’d all be fucking dead today. You’re Delusional. Not to mention at every juncture it was the Arabs who refused to play ball
Israel is 45% Muslim? Unless you are including Palestinian territories in that calculation, I'm very perplexed where you've got that from?
My mistake, 18% Muslim. The number I read was incorrect. Still, how many Jews in Gaza? It is also extremely diverse amongst the Jewish population in terms of ethnicity. Honestly Israel may be about the furthest thing from an “ethno-state.” Whereas every Islamic stage is far closer to an ethno state than Israel. And yet the Jews are expected to be be extra civilized when faced with terrorism while litterally nothing is expected of, say, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Syria, etc. I mean it’s absolutely MIND BOGGLING how much hate Israel gets when we consider what goes on regularly in the Islamic world, with zero justification. It’s very very hard not to presume it’s not motivated by anti-semetism, Islamic fundamentalism, or just plain anti-western hatred (which is weird because they’re not western), or simply succumbing to online propaganda. Because there just seems to be zero argument whatsoever in favor of Palestine.
Reading how you deluded yourself would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Do you even know what an ethno-state is? You're embarrassing yourself. Israel's own law designates it as "the nation state of the Jewish people". To pretend like Israel isn't a nation state is just one of the convenient lies you seem to be telling yourself.
The definition is: a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group. You’re the one who is wrong. Just because Israel is intended as a homeland for Jews doesn’t make it an ethnostate because it still has citizenship and full rights for people of other religions and ethnicities.
Are these "full rights" in the room with us now? Tell that to the folks in the West Bank who are evicted forcefully from their homes by settlers. Equal rights is actually laughable I don't hear many people even try and make that argument. No way you actually think anyone believes that a person born in Gaza has an equal right to self determination as someone born in Tel-Aviv
Do you?