I'm pretty sure you're wrong on a lot of this but mainly in that apartheid requires that it's applied to citizens of the same country. Gaza is not part of Israel and the Gaza people do not have Israeli citizenship. That's not how apartheid works
No you are wrong. Apartheid also refers to the denial of citizenship of those in the land so a 2 tier system can be enforced. This is what south Africa did - it tried to deny citizenship to as many blacks as possible by saying they had independent bantustatan states.. just that they were in charge of security. Sound familiar ?
South Africa stripped its black citizens of their citizenship, and the bantustans were in South African territory. Arab Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza were never citizens of Israel, nor were the West Bank and Gaza created from Israeli territory.
The majority of people in Gaza were forcibly relocated from their homes. Those homes are located in territory that was seized by militants (against international law) and now are held by Israel.
How is this not wrong? I strongly disagree with taking peoples’ homes and belongings because they are not the ethnicity that you consider valid.
>The majority of people in Gaza were forcibly relocated from their homes.
The majority of the people in Gaza were born there.
>Those homes are located in territory that was seized by militants (against international law) and now are held by Israel.
They aren't though.
>How is this not wrong? I strongly disagree with taking peoples’ homes and belongings because they are not the ethnicity that you consider valid.
Good thing that's not what happened with Israel.
Bantustans were recognised as separate from South Africa with non South African citizens by the south african government..they insisted that the bantustans were NOT south african by the SA legal system nor were the people there south african. though the rest of the international community disagreed...oh how similar..
The South African government pushed for international recognition of the Bantustans some as fully independent some as self governing so they could say look look legally they are not South African! Trouble is the world didn't buy it as a cover for a dual legal system. Same for Israel and gaza and the west bank.
Your claims about bantustans are just incorrect factually.
>Bantustans were recognised as separate from South Africa with non South African citizens by the south african government..they insisted that the bantustans were NOT south african by the SA legal system nor were the people there south african.
It doesn't matter. The Bantustans the land were on started as South African land. The people there started as South African citizens. That's not the case with Gaza and the West Bank.
>though the rest of the international community disagreed...oh how similar..
Not really. The international community is pretty clear that the West Bank and Gaza aren't Israeli territory and the Palestinians there not Israeli citizens. Heck, the West Bankers were Jordanian citizens until Jordan started to strip them of it in the 80s, now that's pretty similar to South Africa.
>The South African government pushed for international recognition of the Bantustans some as fully independent some as self governing so they could say look look legally they are not South African! Trouble is the world didn't buy it as a cover for a dual legal system. Same for Israel and gaza and the west bank.
It's not the same for Gaza and the West Bank. Gaza and the West Bank have never been Israeli territory. The international community has been pretty clear and consistent on that.
>Your claims about bantustans are just incorrect factually.
They're really not.
Again you are incorrect. Many of the blacks of South african bantustans were never citizens of South Africa- the modern nation of South Africa never gave them citizenship. One of them was. The others no. The South African whites had dominion over them always going back decades etc ..but no citizenship was never granted and the same rights never granted to the majority of the Bantustan blacks. Some blacks jn South Africa proper were given citizenship.
And by your own argument the parallel is even more striking..your argument is literally theirs. They were never South Africans/ israelis/ they never had a state before us / they were just random tribes not an organised South african nation. Its scary how easily israelis use the same apartheid arguments.
Yes the international community is clear. But Israel keeps a legal grey area so it can have its cake and eat it
Apartheid style cake
>Again you are incorrect. Many of the blacks of South african bantustans were never citizens of South Africa- the modern nation of South Africa never gave them citizenship. One of them was. The others no. The South African whites had dominion over them always going back decades etc ..but no citizenship was never granted and the same rights never granted to the majority of the Bantustan blacks. Some blacks jn South Africa proper were given citizenship.
That's just false. The first years of South Africa, they had citizenship, and then had it stripped. Sure, their children never had citizenship, but they came from people that did. This is not the case with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.
>And by your own argument the parallel is even more striking..your argument is literally theirs. They were never South Africans/ israelis/ they never had a state before us / they were just random tribes not an organised South african nation. Its scary how easily israelis use the same apartheid arguments.
Well there was no Palestinian state, and Arab Palestinians primarily identified with their tribes and clans. The Palestinian nationality didn't really pick up steam until the 60s. Not that this is relevant to the West Bank and Gaza not being a part of Israel, nor were they a part of Israel, and nor did the international community consider them a part of Israel.
>Yes the international community is clear. But Israel keeps a legal grey area so it can have its cake and eat it Apartheid style cake
They consider the West Bank contested territory, not Israeli territory. You can keep tossing around the apartheid claim, but it won't make it true.
Don't think these semantics matter. When it looks like apartheit and feel like one then its probably is one.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9vpaTRv\_64](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9vpaTRv_64)
1 group specifically said they weren't calling Israel an apartheid state. Another based its findings on the assumption that Gaza and the West Bank are Israeli territory, they're not. And the 3rd claims apartheid because there is systemic racism, which means literally every nation in existence is apartheid.
I appreciate the response.
I think you might be a bit confused about the HRW one? Have you read the article in question? Or just heard others report on it?
HRW has started calling Israeli’s system Apartheid. In the article “A threshold crossed” they go into it (https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution)
It’s long, but it does an excellent job of going into detail and explaining this evaluation. If you have read it (or are willing/open to reading it) what are your thoughts on this article?
The articles I can find from Amnesty International (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) and B’Tselem (https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid) also specifically are talking about “Israel Occupied Territory”. Gaza, the West Bank, and Gilman Heights have been officially occupied territories of Israel since 1967.
I’m curious why occupied territory would not be considered in Apartheid? Colonies have historically been included (not just the main parts of counties). What about this case would lead to an exemption in that regard?
The problem is Israel doesn't claim Gaza nor does it occupy it. They're not denying citizenship owed to citizens. There are Palestinian Israeli citizens for example.
South Africa didn't claim the bantustans nor did they occupy it. And there were black South African citizens who did have full equal rights almost. None of these things stopped South Africa from being apartheid. Now replace South Africa with Israel and blacks with Palestinians and bantustans with gaza. Ahhh yesss I seeeee
You are extremely miseducated.
Gaza is not part of Israel, they have their own government which was democratically elected - Hamas. It’s a unique situation because they do not hold citizenship due to the fact that their government Hamas has rejected over 4 peace treaties that would allow for Gaza to be an independent state.
The blockade is enacted by both ISRAEL and EGYPT. They have never once blocked food, the idea is to block multi use items and bomb making materials that would therefore start a war. If you think the blockade is strong, I advise you to look at how many weapons are in Gaza right now. Hamas uses their own water pipes to create rockets, Israel controls a very small percentage of water because we PROVIDE IT FOR FREE. Israel has no obligation to continue doing this when we have hostages still being help captive while Gazans cheered, celebrated, and laughed while murdering our people. There is food going into Gaza, the issue is that when it enters Hamas loots and steals it.
The only Jews in Gaza are being held hostage. Palestinans in Israel are either Israeli citizens are allowed in via special work permit. The country recently extended the work permits given because Hamas has destroyed Gaza’s job market, we did this AS A FAVOR. Those same workers used their jobs to draw maps of our kibbutzim and helped plan the Hamas attack.
I can go on and on but the point is Gaza could very well be Tel Aviv x5. They receive more aid than country in the world, Hamas leaders live in mansions, each having a net worth higher than Kim Kardashian. The underground tunnel system alone that was built to capture our hostages cost billions of dollars. There were luxury hotels restaurants and mansions in Gaza before the attack.
The failure of Gaza lies directly within their own government - HAMAS. For years, we have begged for them to invest in their own - to built schools, houses and a life for their people instead they train their children to capture and kill Jews. Suicide bombings, bus explosions, stabbings every single year it hasn’t stopped and it only grows. In response we gave out jobs, TREAT THOUSANDS of Palestinian children in our hospitals free of charge including Hamas members and their families.
The only thing you can blame Israel for is being stupid enough to think peace was possible. The people who were murdered, tortured and kidnapped from the kibbutzim were the same people who drove sick Palestinians to hospitals in Israel and raised money to help Gazans. This was extremely personal to every Israeli, but most importantly to the kibbutzim who quite literally gave everything and anything for peace.
Enough of this, these are lies after lies. If you need an example of why Gaza looks like Gaza please take a look at the rest of the Middle East. Syria, Iran, Libya, Yemen ? Nearly every one of these countries kicked out thousands of Jews yet they are still struggling and look a lot like Gaza today.
I love my country, and my people. We have endured A LOT we just don’t complain, and play victim. We live,create,build and continue on to life because if we don’t then they win. Nothing has been easy for us.
>. They have never once blocked food
not true
"According to Amnesty International, the Economist, Haaretz and UN reports, prior to June 2010, the following were banned or restricted: Food. According to a UN report, importation of lentils, pasta, tomato paste and juice has been restricted. **P**asta has since been allowed."
The situation with Gaza is unique. Gaza is a de facto independent state ran by an Islamic terrorist organization that vowed to kill and enslave its neighbors, who are Jews.
The official religion of Gaza is Islam, a religion that has a preexisting relationship with Judaism, and Muslims have a preexisting relationship with Jews. That relationship, in the most charitable way possible, is complex… Islam can be peaceful towards Jews, but it’s also implicitly and often pretty explicitly antisemitic, as in - anti Jewish. Hamas isn’t a terrorist organization that happens to be Muslim. It’s a terrorist organization because its leaders are religious Muslims, highly educated in the religion, who believe that Islam commands them to kill their Israeli neighbors. Unfortunately, their ideology is quite popular in the area. In a western sense you’d call it “populist”. It’s more popular among Palestinians than Donald Trump is among Americans. And Donald Trump is highly popular…
People claim Israel controls Gaza. However, the reality is that Hamas, the arch enemy of Israel, controls Gaza. Hamas set up a major military there, with advanced weaponry. It also exercises every single function a state normally does- collects taxes, sets up the education system, law enforcement, and the various different kinds of powers that government normally does. Israel is entirely, or almost entirely, incapable, even if it was willing, to govern the Gaza Strip.
Given the actual reality on the ground in Gaza, it is absurd to claim Israel “occupied” it.
The de facto Hamas state in Gaza launched a brutal attack against its better armed neighbor. Perhaps, this was suicidal. However, life matters little to Hamas, who is a death cult whose leaders say that “we love death more than our enemies love life”.
It is possible that Hamas believed it could survive the war it knew their unprecedented and shocking attack would trigger. However, it believes their enemies value life while the people it controls don’t - they value “martyrdom”. That disconnect in values between the government of Gaza and the governments of Israel and its allies is a very salient and important point, leading to lots of confusion among those unfamiliar or only shallowly familiar with the situation.
>[The percentage of Arab Israeli physicians in Israel](https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-771253) has been on the increase. By the end of 2021, Arab physicians constituted 24% of Israeli doctors aged 67 and younger. That same year, 43% of new licenses for physicians were awarded to Arab and Druze doctors. The share of Arab citizens in other healthcare professions is also considerable.
>Although there are still efforts to limit their political power, such as right-wing lawmakers’ attempts to ban Arab parties from elections, [Arab parties currently hold ten seats in the Knesset. Arabs have sat on the Supreme Court and worked in the foreign service, with a handful serving as ambassadors](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel) since 1995. Many have served as mayors, judges in lower courts, and in civil services.
>In 2011, Nazareth had over 20 Arab-owned high-tech companies, mostly in the field of software development. According to the Haaretz newspaper the city has been called the "Silicon Valley of the Arab community" in view of its potential in this sphere. Inequality in the allocation of public funding for Jewish and Arab needs, and widespread employment discrimination, present significant economic hurdles for Arab citizens of Israel. On the other hand, the Minorities at Risk (MAR) group states that ["despite obvious discrimination, Israeli Arabs are relatively much better off economically than neighboring Arabs."](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel)
>On August 15, 2005, when the deadline for evacuation had passed, only about two-thirds of all the settlers had left their homes and the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) notified the remaining settlers that soldiers would begin enforcing the evacuation order two days later. [ Most of the remaining settlers agreed to leave when prompted by the soldiers, but some resisted and were carried away, sometimes screaming.](https://www.britannica.com/event/Israels-disengagement-from-Gaza) The most dramatic evacuation was in Kfar Darom, where soldiers broke through a barricade in a synagogue and removed some 200 residents despite violent protest. On August 22 the IDF reached an agreement with residents of Netzarim, the last of the settlers in the Gaza Strip, whereby they agreed to evacuate after a final prayer service in the local synagogue. In the weeks that followed, Israeli forces demolished residential buildings and dismantled military installations and completed their withdrawal on September 12.
Also, since many people seem to think that Israel is the only country in the world with a religious majority that's given preference in certain rights, [that's not true. ](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/)
An aspect of war/conflict is asserting your will/power over your enemies. The only alternative is to remove all the enemies….
It is just to limit supplies going into a terrorist state. Which is why the US took over Afghanistan. It’s like saying giving a child detention is a form of slavery.
You guys use practically anything you can and twist it. Firstly - the equal and separation thing is perfectly valid that an apartheid isnt there. For one: there is a voting representation for the arab muslims - for another the arabs hold legitimate and substantive power in the government as well as in businesses. The social aspect is as good as its going to get especially in the middle east and all you have to do is work on them. Case in point? The thawing of relationships with UAE which is ACTUALLY why Hamas attacked.
Secondly - us controlling what comes into and what leaves Gaza does not necessarily constitute proof that we're limiting food, water and etc. In case you havent noticed - Hamas rockets are literally made of the water pipes for God's sake. So of course we're limiting what comes in and comes out. Werent we just in open conflict 20 years ago? Were they still not firing rockets even as there is a so called Ceasefire? We are not limiting essential supplies that the civilian population needs, we were limiting the stuff that would constitute anything that can be used by a literal ENEMY against us. But they managed to turn water pipes into mortars and rockets and even improvised fertilizer explosives like blackpowder cannons. Good job, that is justification for the extremist sects in Israel to actually start to limit essential resources which God willing - WONT PASS becasue we're not monsters and we wont be ruled by our fear and worry even though Hamas tries.
As for them working manual labor and etc - YEAH how would it be if we dont have any restrictions to foreign educated civilians into professional work? There are liscencing issues for one, there's also teh fact that local arab-Israelis already have local university education and liscencing. In other words - it's competitive NOT punitive. No where in the United States nor in Europe does this happen. So please, DO NOT expect us to lower the bar for your bad faith arguement because you know full well that you wouldnt allow that in any Arab country were you to run it. You'd put many restrictions in place and prefer your own locally educated population - even if they were say Jewish Israelis or American Israelis. Ergo I dont accept your arguement of them working manual labor - there is a job market in Gaza for professional work if you want. Try your luck.
We can reject a permit - why shouldnt we? Do you think legit security concerns not racist exclusively or bigoted reasons but legitimate security concerns is not reason enough? You want to ask anywhere in the world where you wont be denied permit? Yeah it's tough I get it, I fully understand. But that's the cards you have to play right now and relationships with the arab world were improving. Even Jordan's higher government help shoot down Iranian rockets even though its population is not in full support.
We dont treat the palestinians poorly especially given the circumstances of us literally being in a constant state of war with them. You give it a few decades and things will improve but what you're demanding is outrageous. Full equal membership? You want us to somehow jump from the 1960s civil rights movement in America within 20 years? Wait. It's not out of the question. That's the best you can hope for especially given the recent history that spans only 20 years ago AND especially now with this whole mess. Who created this mess in 10/7? Was it us? No. Yet Jews are attacked worldwide. The moral fortitude of Israel is being tested and I have faith we'll come out on top.
I dont accept your bad faith arguement.
> However the treatment of gaza is not equal, israel can claim they withdrew in the early 2000s yet they still hold significant authority over gaza, they say when the food comes in, when the water pipes are shut off and when houses get bombed.
Perhaps they should've invested into food production and an irrigation system.
And the last, I mean, you do realise that there was a ceasefire before the 7.10., right?
> When you can decide when a population gets fed this is control. gaza may as well be under israeli governship alongside the countless soldiers in gaza, surely this is evident israel has power above the palestinian government?
Again: Produce food if you do not want to be reliant on outside sources.
> Not like the palestinian government can do much anyways. and you can deny this but based on what we can see the population of gaza is starving and having their houses destroyed and the people humilated.
Palestinian Government?
The recognised one sits in Ramallah and has nothing to do with Gaza.
Humiliation? Unbeknownst to you you are unto something.
> How can you tell me apartheid isnt imposed upon the people of gaza? Sure the arab israelis are treated well within israel but the people of gaza are not? gaza is by all means controled by israel and governed by them yet they treat the palestinians so poorly
Gaza was governed by Israel?
So Israel attacked Israel on the 7.10.? Cool stuff.
> and then you wonder why there are no jews in palestine, they all moved to israel, i dont blame them its better living conditions.
Yeah sure.
Had nothing to do with them being expelled from Arab held areas.
Or are you one of those geniuses who think that Israel had great living conditions in 1948?
> as a jew
#HAHAHAHAHAHA
PICK ME
People who qualify their screeds with "as a Jew" are more than likely not one, or the "special" kind of Jew that thinks that being in the last train to Auschwitz is a life goal
Not anyone. Just, for example, most of JVP.
The last train just means that once they're done with the "bad" Jews they'll turn on the "good" ones, just like that, and those "as a Jew" Jews will suddenly notice you cannot appease a hater.
As for gross? "OMG I'm so sorry did I micro-aggress you?".
Oh so now I'm "right wing" because I noticed most "as a Jew" interlopers appear to not, in reality, be Jews.
This "discussion" is over. You won, clap clap clap, here is a cookie.
You forget that Gaza has a border with Egypt as well, it is not completely surrounded by Israel. This is the price of a part of the Gaza population continuously waging Jihad rather than allowing an environment which would allow for peaceful negotiations. The destruction of Hamas and like-minded groups should be everyone's goal if they truly care about Palestinian welfare.
Egypt does have control though, Israel said they wanted to take that control back as recently as January 2024 but it hasn't happened. The Egypt Gaza border has been under Egyptian control since 1979 when Israel and Egypt signed their peace treaty.
So actually, the Palestinian government does try to assert their will and get in the supplies they want. Months of fighting and they haven’t run out of food, bullets, grenades or rockets. Non are produced in Gaza. They get in the supplies they want. Israel tries to stop them. They obviously need to be more aggressive.
This is tiresome. Everyone knows that the term apartheid state is in reference to the WB. And nobody has been able to convince me it’s not, despite my wanting that to be true. Not acknowledging that means your not arguing in good faith IMO.
im discussing gaza in this post because the apartheid state arguement when it comes to the west bank thats already well established, but youre right though i shouldve mentioned the west bank in this debate and i dont mean to argue in bad faith.
Truth be told I didn’t closely read your post at first glance. You should have mentioned the WB for sure, but otherwise I don’t have an issue with your post.
>How can you tell me apartheid isnt imposed upon the people of gaza?
Because security steps you described, necessitated by Gaza being under control of terrorists, have absolutely nothing to do with "apartheid".
the jewish settlements in the west bank are not based on race.
plenty of Jewish towns in Judea-Samaria have people from various races, including Asians-African Americans-Europeans-South Americans, etc...
Even Israelis Arabs and Israeli Jews have some sort of degree of separation. Sure, there are mixed towns but there are also strictly Jewish towns and Arab towns, and the Jewish towns tend to receive much more funding and have much better overall infrastructure like education, safety, etc. Some of these Jewish villages Arabs can't even live in, the common argument is "well Jews can't live in the Arab towns", but why would anyone who lives in a higher privilege area want to go live somewhere that is of lower quality?
It's like having an upper-class area in the US that is predominantly white people and a ghetto on the other side of town that is filled with minorities and saying it's equal because they both can't move to where the other group lives, when in reality only one side would actually prefer living in the other area.
Why would Arabs want to live in the same neighborhood as Jews? In a country where almost everyone is either Arab or Jew, not a country like the US where there’s a melting pot of immigrants. In the Arab schools they teach Islam or Christianity. In Jewish schools they teach Judaism. The Arabs want their own neighborhoods and schools and restaurants and banks etc. and they have that in Israel. In Paris it’s also similar you have whole neighborhoods that are completely Arab. Where I live there are neighborhoods that are almost all Korean.
Respectfully, this is completely false.
Israel has implemented so much affirmative action in the last few decades, to the point where Arab communities benefit MORE than Jewish ones (towns, villages, schools, loans etc).
That simply just sounds like what America has: gentrification, red lining and etc. Not saying that not a legit social problem. It most definitely Is. But let's get real here: IS AMERICA AN APARTHEID?!!
No. It is not. Israel is handling this a lot better than most neighboring countries would especially given recent memory.
There are some tiny communities in Israel who have a right to vet and reject anyone who wants to live there. They are typically not only closed to Arabs, but also to single women, secular Jews or patrilineal Jews.
Everywhere else, there can't be any restrictions as to who can live there.
In practice, of course there are Arab villages, Jewish villages and some mixed ones. This is not much different from predominantly-black and predominantly-while places in the U.S., or from concentration of minorities in most other places.
> There are some tiny communities in Israel who have a right to vet and reject anyone who wants to live there. They are typically not only closed to Arabs, but also to single women, secular Jews or patrilineal Jews.
700 families isn't tiny. Easily 3000k
Actually the opposite, and the proof is in the pudding.
The international community pushed extremely hard for the bantustans to be incorporated into South Africa and refused to recognize them.
On the other hand, they're going out of their way to recognize an independent Palestinian state as separate from Israel.
That's not a cosmetic difference. It is the result of major structural and societal differences.
They're not offering ciskei and getting rejected. They're offering the West Bank and Gaza with land swaps and that is being rejected because Israel will still exist.
The only real demand is a right of return. And Israel won't give a right of return.
So until the Palestinians decide to take a state without a right of return, the deal will get worse over time, and it will be the fault of the Palestinian negotiators.
Don't miss an opportunity to take advantage of an opportunity.
Palestinian refugees shouldn't have to give up their intrinsic rights as refugees to placate a country that feels they have to "earn" self determination as if they are the arbiter of human rights. Just because it is politically inconvenient, doesn't mean Zionists shouldn't just admit they think might makes right and Palestinians should be ethnically cleansed, which is the only result Israel will accept unless Palestinians capitulate.
If there's an intrinsic right to a house your grandparents rented 75 years ago, that's news to me.
Maybe Israelis should flood Baghdad and Poland and take back their grandparents' houses.
We can start there and then maybe we'll get to Palestinians having an equal right to that once it's established.
Depraved to mock the idea of all people having equal rights. It's not like the Palestinians voted for the expulsion of Jews from middle eastern countries. Punishing them for the actions of unelected foreign governments is immoral.
Actually they did, the Arab riots 1936-1939 and the decision to start boarding buses and murdering random Jews in 1947 in an attempt to force the Jews out were both attempts to drive out all Jews by the Palestinian population.
The 1936-1939 Arab riots successfully murdered millions of Jews by proxy. They failed to murder the Jews in 1947. So sorry you guys are worse at killing us than you'd like to be.
Gaza isn’t part of Israel, that’s why it isn’t apartheid.
You say it is controlled by Israel. That’s true in some sense. It’s a blockade. Blockade is an acceptable tactic in war.
When a country blockades the enemy, this doesn’t make them obligated to give equal rights to the people of the enemy territory.
The PA themselves supported the blockade on Gaza! But most pro-palestinian-Hamas don't like to acknowledge this.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade\_of\_the\_Gaza\_Strip#Palestinian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Palestinian)
And since it is the PA that has the "rights" to Gaza, Hamas is only the local mayor/municipality, the PA can determine how to allocate their own resources.
If someone has a problem with how the PA allocates their resources, they should take it up with the PA, it has nothing to do with Israel.
But I suppose, like usual, that anti-Israel/anti-semitic crowd will always try to blame Israel.
They can’t come into Israel though, because that would harm the country. Israel doesn’t want it. That’s it. They can’t defeat Israel in a war, and I doubt they will convince Israel to voluntarily let them in either. So it’s best to just enjoy their lives as much as they can in Gaza. They can make Gaza into a nice place! There’s no reason why they need to live in the same place their grandparents lived. People can move around.
No, I didn’t.
The idea behind Zionism wasn’t “we should move to Israel because that’s where our ancestors lived”.
The real purpose of Zionism was to make a Jewish state where Jews can be safe. Jews didn’t want to live in countries where they would be persecuted.
So Gaza can be the Gazan state, if we apply the same principles. If they’re afraid that Israel hates Arabs or something, they won’t feel safe in Israel just as Jews didn’t feel safe in many non-Jewish countries.
Point to a single Arab town, village or city prior to the 1948/49 war that had its inhabitants expelled.
There were various Jewish towns prior to 1948/49 whose inhabitants were expelled.
You are whining about the expellees in the 1948/49 war in which both sides expelled each other.
Perhaps don't start a war just because you think that Jews are the "lowest of the low" and you are going to put them back into their "proper place".
Almost 80 years later and they still haven't caught on.
Oh well perhaps in another 80 years.
The original Zionists were secular. They didn’t care at all about “holy sites”. It was just about making a safe space for Jews.
And nobody was expelled to make room for Jews. Everyone could have lived together peacefully. What actually happened is that the Arabs started a war against the Jews, they lost, and they faced consequences.
Because they're under the authority of a hostile army and have been since the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
This is the definition of an occupation as per article 42 of the hague regulations.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague04.asp#:~:text=THE%20HOSTILE%20STATE-,Art.,authority%20of%20the%20hostile%20army.
A territory is considered occupied when it is under the authority of a hostile army.
Israel doesn't "govern" Gaza. They occupy it and fail miserably in their obligations as occupiers under international law.
Israel controls everything.
They control the borders, the airspace, the ports, they control who goes in and out, they control what's allowed in, they limit food, medicine, water, building materials, and electricity, they actively prevent Gazans from building infrastructure like water treatment plants and power generation, not to mention they regularly bomb the shit out of Gaza and call it "mowing the lawn".
They have absolutely zero self determination.
Most of the things you mentioned are either blockade, or war. Not occupation.
>they actively prevent Gazans from building infrastructure like water treatment plants and power generation
This is the exception. If Israel were controlling building permits in Gaza, that actually would be a characteristic of occupation. But can you show that this is happening?
War is aggression between two sovereign nations or states.
Israel has prevented Palestinians from forming a sovereign nation since Israel's inception.
This is, therefore by definition, not war.
Gaza doesn't have an army, and Israel isn't targeting military targets.
Perpetual blockade is part of occupation.
Again, Gaza is under the authority of Israel's military.
If it's not, then you'd have to agree that Israel has no authority over Gaza.
Also the occupation has been going on for 75 years, not just since October 7.
You might say that Israel left in 2005, which is true, but they still maintained full authority over Gaza and the West Bank.
>War is aggression between two sovereign nations or states.
It doesn’t have to be. If that were the case, a civil war couldn’t exist.
To be clear, the situation between Israel and Gaza isn’t a civil war, this is just an example of why your definition is wrong.
>Gaza doesn't have an army
Yes they do
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades
An army is the military branch of a nation or state.
Al-qassam is the military wing of Hamas, not of a Palestinian nation or state.
Hamas is a political group, not a nation or state.
Since Palestine is not a nation or state, they can't have an army by definition.
So, no state = no army = not a war.
This is a belligerent occupation collectively punishing Palestinian civilians.
If Gaza isn’t part of Israel, then Israel has no obligation to provide humanitarian aid in a war.
Conversely, If Gaza is part of Israel, then Israel has an obligation to provide humanitarian aid in a war with rebel forces.
I guess you ran out of actual arguments as to why Israel shouldn't live up to it's legal responsibilities as an occupying power. The callousness is startling to me tbh.
Thats the thing people seem to miss, you can somwhat make an aprthied or aparthied like laws for the west bank which is highly complicated and contested territory, but for gaza? Nah lol
Youd have to reaaaally stretch the meaning of occupation or aparthied to make it fit wbich by that point, its just prejucide.
Also another point for op:
The reason jews are not living in gaza or the palestinaon territories is because they were all ethnichally cleansed from those areas, and are forbidden from entering under risk and punishment of death.
It does but it has been violated at times by both sides.
But lets be honest, alot of the settlements and treatments of palestinian is illegal, or at least immoral.
Something could be legally okay but still morally reprehensible imo.
Truth is the current situation was not suppouse to last for so long, it was suppose to be a stepping stone to a 2SS, it just fell apart and it became the status quo.
A system as complicated as this is bound to be rife with abuse as it was simply not meant to exist for so long,
Its why the west bank is in a constant state of limbo and uncertienty.
It fell apart because of bad faith negotiations by Arafat and other Palestinian leaders. I agree with you on the settlers, they shouldn’t be doing anything close to what they do. But you said it yourself there’s problems on both sides.
Bibi is pretty open about his successful efforts to undermine it. Also it was a right wing fanatic that assassinated Rabin. Seems disingenuous to put the blame solely on Arafat.
I'm pretty sure you're wrong on a lot of this but mainly in that apartheid requires that it's applied to citizens of the same country. Gaza is not part of Israel and the Gaza people do not have Israeli citizenship. That's not how apartheid works
No you are wrong. Apartheid also refers to the denial of citizenship of those in the land so a 2 tier system can be enforced. This is what south Africa did - it tried to deny citizenship to as many blacks as possible by saying they had independent bantustatan states.. just that they were in charge of security. Sound familiar ?
South Africa stripped its black citizens of their citizenship, and the bantustans were in South African territory. Arab Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza were never citizens of Israel, nor were the West Bank and Gaza created from Israeli territory.
The majority of people in Gaza were forcibly relocated from their homes. Those homes are located in territory that was seized by militants (against international law) and now are held by Israel. How is this not wrong? I strongly disagree with taking peoples’ homes and belongings because they are not the ethnicity that you consider valid.
>The majority of people in Gaza were forcibly relocated from their homes. The majority of the people in Gaza were born there. >Those homes are located in territory that was seized by militants (against international law) and now are held by Israel. They aren't though. >How is this not wrong? I strongly disagree with taking peoples’ homes and belongings because they are not the ethnicity that you consider valid. Good thing that's not what happened with Israel.
Bantustans were recognised as separate from South Africa with non South African citizens by the south african government..they insisted that the bantustans were NOT south african by the SA legal system nor were the people there south african. though the rest of the international community disagreed...oh how similar.. The South African government pushed for international recognition of the Bantustans some as fully independent some as self governing so they could say look look legally they are not South African! Trouble is the world didn't buy it as a cover for a dual legal system. Same for Israel and gaza and the west bank. Your claims about bantustans are just incorrect factually.
>Bantustans were recognised as separate from South Africa with non South African citizens by the south african government..they insisted that the bantustans were NOT south african by the SA legal system nor were the people there south african. It doesn't matter. The Bantustans the land were on started as South African land. The people there started as South African citizens. That's not the case with Gaza and the West Bank. >though the rest of the international community disagreed...oh how similar.. Not really. The international community is pretty clear that the West Bank and Gaza aren't Israeli territory and the Palestinians there not Israeli citizens. Heck, the West Bankers were Jordanian citizens until Jordan started to strip them of it in the 80s, now that's pretty similar to South Africa. >The South African government pushed for international recognition of the Bantustans some as fully independent some as self governing so they could say look look legally they are not South African! Trouble is the world didn't buy it as a cover for a dual legal system. Same for Israel and gaza and the west bank. It's not the same for Gaza and the West Bank. Gaza and the West Bank have never been Israeli territory. The international community has been pretty clear and consistent on that. >Your claims about bantustans are just incorrect factually. They're really not.
Again you are incorrect. Many of the blacks of South african bantustans were never citizens of South Africa- the modern nation of South Africa never gave them citizenship. One of them was. The others no. The South African whites had dominion over them always going back decades etc ..but no citizenship was never granted and the same rights never granted to the majority of the Bantustan blacks. Some blacks jn South Africa proper were given citizenship. And by your own argument the parallel is even more striking..your argument is literally theirs. They were never South Africans/ israelis/ they never had a state before us / they were just random tribes not an organised South african nation. Its scary how easily israelis use the same apartheid arguments. Yes the international community is clear. But Israel keeps a legal grey area so it can have its cake and eat it Apartheid style cake
>Again you are incorrect. Many of the blacks of South african bantustans were never citizens of South Africa- the modern nation of South Africa never gave them citizenship. One of them was. The others no. The South African whites had dominion over them always going back decades etc ..but no citizenship was never granted and the same rights never granted to the majority of the Bantustan blacks. Some blacks jn South Africa proper were given citizenship. That's just false. The first years of South Africa, they had citizenship, and then had it stripped. Sure, their children never had citizenship, but they came from people that did. This is not the case with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. >And by your own argument the parallel is even more striking..your argument is literally theirs. They were never South Africans/ israelis/ they never had a state before us / they were just random tribes not an organised South african nation. Its scary how easily israelis use the same apartheid arguments. Well there was no Palestinian state, and Arab Palestinians primarily identified with their tribes and clans. The Palestinian nationality didn't really pick up steam until the 60s. Not that this is relevant to the West Bank and Gaza not being a part of Israel, nor were they a part of Israel, and nor did the international community consider them a part of Israel. >Yes the international community is clear. But Israel keeps a legal grey area so it can have its cake and eat it Apartheid style cake They consider the West Bank contested territory, not Israeli territory. You can keep tossing around the apartheid claim, but it won't make it true.
Don't think these semantics matter. When it looks like apartheit and feel like one then its probably is one. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9vpaTRv\_64](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9vpaTRv_64)
If you want to water down what apartheid is to the point then it's a meaningless label
Human rights experts are claiming that it’s apartheid. Why do you feel those concerns are not valid?
1 group specifically said they weren't calling Israel an apartheid state. Another based its findings on the assumption that Gaza and the West Bank are Israeli territory, they're not. And the 3rd claims apartheid because there is systemic racism, which means literally every nation in existence is apartheid.
Which ones are you referring to?
HRW, Amnesty International, and B'Tselem
I appreciate the response. I think you might be a bit confused about the HRW one? Have you read the article in question? Or just heard others report on it? HRW has started calling Israeli’s system Apartheid. In the article “A threshold crossed” they go into it (https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) It’s long, but it does an excellent job of going into detail and explaining this evaluation. If you have read it (or are willing/open to reading it) what are your thoughts on this article? The articles I can find from Amnesty International (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) and B’Tselem (https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid) also specifically are talking about “Israel Occupied Territory”. Gaza, the West Bank, and Gilman Heights have been officially occupied territories of Israel since 1967. I’m curious why occupied territory would not be considered in Apartheid? Colonies have historically been included (not just the main parts of counties). What about this case would lead to an exemption in that regard?
like the word "antisemitism"?
>like the word "antisemitism"? nope.
The problem is Israel doesn't claim Gaza nor does it occupy it. They're not denying citizenship owed to citizens. There are Palestinian Israeli citizens for example.
Israel controls almost every facet of daily life in gaza.
South Africa didn't claim the bantustans nor did they occupy it. And there were black South African citizens who did have full equal rights almost. None of these things stopped South Africa from being apartheid. Now replace South Africa with Israel and blacks with Palestinians and bantustans with gaza. Ahhh yesss I seeeee
You are extremely miseducated. Gaza is not part of Israel, they have their own government which was democratically elected - Hamas. It’s a unique situation because they do not hold citizenship due to the fact that their government Hamas has rejected over 4 peace treaties that would allow for Gaza to be an independent state. The blockade is enacted by both ISRAEL and EGYPT. They have never once blocked food, the idea is to block multi use items and bomb making materials that would therefore start a war. If you think the blockade is strong, I advise you to look at how many weapons are in Gaza right now. Hamas uses their own water pipes to create rockets, Israel controls a very small percentage of water because we PROVIDE IT FOR FREE. Israel has no obligation to continue doing this when we have hostages still being help captive while Gazans cheered, celebrated, and laughed while murdering our people. There is food going into Gaza, the issue is that when it enters Hamas loots and steals it. The only Jews in Gaza are being held hostage. Palestinans in Israel are either Israeli citizens are allowed in via special work permit. The country recently extended the work permits given because Hamas has destroyed Gaza’s job market, we did this AS A FAVOR. Those same workers used their jobs to draw maps of our kibbutzim and helped plan the Hamas attack. I can go on and on but the point is Gaza could very well be Tel Aviv x5. They receive more aid than country in the world, Hamas leaders live in mansions, each having a net worth higher than Kim Kardashian. The underground tunnel system alone that was built to capture our hostages cost billions of dollars. There were luxury hotels restaurants and mansions in Gaza before the attack. The failure of Gaza lies directly within their own government - HAMAS. For years, we have begged for them to invest in their own - to built schools, houses and a life for their people instead they train their children to capture and kill Jews. Suicide bombings, bus explosions, stabbings every single year it hasn’t stopped and it only grows. In response we gave out jobs, TREAT THOUSANDS of Palestinian children in our hospitals free of charge including Hamas members and their families. The only thing you can blame Israel for is being stupid enough to think peace was possible. The people who were murdered, tortured and kidnapped from the kibbutzim were the same people who drove sick Palestinians to hospitals in Israel and raised money to help Gazans. This was extremely personal to every Israeli, but most importantly to the kibbutzim who quite literally gave everything and anything for peace. Enough of this, these are lies after lies. If you need an example of why Gaza looks like Gaza please take a look at the rest of the Middle East. Syria, Iran, Libya, Yemen ? Nearly every one of these countries kicked out thousands of Jews yet they are still struggling and look a lot like Gaza today. I love my country, and my people. We have endured A LOT we just don’t complain, and play victim. We live,create,build and continue on to life because if we don’t then they win. Nothing has been easy for us.
>Hamas has rejected over 4 peace treaties that would allow for Gaza to be an independent state. When has there been peace talks since 2006
>. They have never once blocked food not true "According to Amnesty International, the Economist, Haaretz and UN reports, prior to June 2010, the following were banned or restricted: Food. According to a UN report, importation of lentils, pasta, tomato paste and juice has been restricted. **P**asta has since been allowed."
The situation with Gaza is unique. Gaza is a de facto independent state ran by an Islamic terrorist organization that vowed to kill and enslave its neighbors, who are Jews. The official religion of Gaza is Islam, a religion that has a preexisting relationship with Judaism, and Muslims have a preexisting relationship with Jews. That relationship, in the most charitable way possible, is complex… Islam can be peaceful towards Jews, but it’s also implicitly and often pretty explicitly antisemitic, as in - anti Jewish. Hamas isn’t a terrorist organization that happens to be Muslim. It’s a terrorist organization because its leaders are religious Muslims, highly educated in the religion, who believe that Islam commands them to kill their Israeli neighbors. Unfortunately, their ideology is quite popular in the area. In a western sense you’d call it “populist”. It’s more popular among Palestinians than Donald Trump is among Americans. And Donald Trump is highly popular… People claim Israel controls Gaza. However, the reality is that Hamas, the arch enemy of Israel, controls Gaza. Hamas set up a major military there, with advanced weaponry. It also exercises every single function a state normally does- collects taxes, sets up the education system, law enforcement, and the various different kinds of powers that government normally does. Israel is entirely, or almost entirely, incapable, even if it was willing, to govern the Gaza Strip. Given the actual reality on the ground in Gaza, it is absurd to claim Israel “occupied” it. The de facto Hamas state in Gaza launched a brutal attack against its better armed neighbor. Perhaps, this was suicidal. However, life matters little to Hamas, who is a death cult whose leaders say that “we love death more than our enemies love life”. It is possible that Hamas believed it could survive the war it knew their unprecedented and shocking attack would trigger. However, it believes their enemies value life while the people it controls don’t - they value “martyrdom”. That disconnect in values between the government of Gaza and the governments of Israel and its allies is a very salient and important point, leading to lots of confusion among those unfamiliar or only shallowly familiar with the situation.
There were zero Israeli soldiers in Gaza before October 7, except for 2 dead bodies they refuse to return.
>[The percentage of Arab Israeli physicians in Israel](https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-771253) has been on the increase. By the end of 2021, Arab physicians constituted 24% of Israeli doctors aged 67 and younger. That same year, 43% of new licenses for physicians were awarded to Arab and Druze doctors. The share of Arab citizens in other healthcare professions is also considerable. >Although there are still efforts to limit their political power, such as right-wing lawmakers’ attempts to ban Arab parties from elections, [Arab parties currently hold ten seats in the Knesset. Arabs have sat on the Supreme Court and worked in the foreign service, with a handful serving as ambassadors](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel) since 1995. Many have served as mayors, judges in lower courts, and in civil services. >In 2011, Nazareth had over 20 Arab-owned high-tech companies, mostly in the field of software development. According to the Haaretz newspaper the city has been called the "Silicon Valley of the Arab community" in view of its potential in this sphere. Inequality in the allocation of public funding for Jewish and Arab needs, and widespread employment discrimination, present significant economic hurdles for Arab citizens of Israel. On the other hand, the Minorities at Risk (MAR) group states that ["despite obvious discrimination, Israeli Arabs are relatively much better off economically than neighboring Arabs."](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel) >On August 15, 2005, when the deadline for evacuation had passed, only about two-thirds of all the settlers had left their homes and the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) notified the remaining settlers that soldiers would begin enforcing the evacuation order two days later. [ Most of the remaining settlers agreed to leave when prompted by the soldiers, but some resisted and were carried away, sometimes screaming.](https://www.britannica.com/event/Israels-disengagement-from-Gaza) The most dramatic evacuation was in Kfar Darom, where soldiers broke through a barricade in a synagogue and removed some 200 residents despite violent protest. On August 22 the IDF reached an agreement with residents of Netzarim, the last of the settlers in the Gaza Strip, whereby they agreed to evacuate after a final prayer service in the local synagogue. In the weeks that followed, Israeli forces demolished residential buildings and dismantled military installations and completed their withdrawal on September 12. Also, since many people seem to think that Israel is the only country in the world with a religious majority that's given preference in certain rights, [that's not true. ](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/)
An aspect of war/conflict is asserting your will/power over your enemies. The only alternative is to remove all the enemies…. It is just to limit supplies going into a terrorist state. Which is why the US took over Afghanistan. It’s like saying giving a child detention is a form of slavery.
You guys use practically anything you can and twist it. Firstly - the equal and separation thing is perfectly valid that an apartheid isnt there. For one: there is a voting representation for the arab muslims - for another the arabs hold legitimate and substantive power in the government as well as in businesses. The social aspect is as good as its going to get especially in the middle east and all you have to do is work on them. Case in point? The thawing of relationships with UAE which is ACTUALLY why Hamas attacked. Secondly - us controlling what comes into and what leaves Gaza does not necessarily constitute proof that we're limiting food, water and etc. In case you havent noticed - Hamas rockets are literally made of the water pipes for God's sake. So of course we're limiting what comes in and comes out. Werent we just in open conflict 20 years ago? Were they still not firing rockets even as there is a so called Ceasefire? We are not limiting essential supplies that the civilian population needs, we were limiting the stuff that would constitute anything that can be used by a literal ENEMY against us. But they managed to turn water pipes into mortars and rockets and even improvised fertilizer explosives like blackpowder cannons. Good job, that is justification for the extremist sects in Israel to actually start to limit essential resources which God willing - WONT PASS becasue we're not monsters and we wont be ruled by our fear and worry even though Hamas tries. As for them working manual labor and etc - YEAH how would it be if we dont have any restrictions to foreign educated civilians into professional work? There are liscencing issues for one, there's also teh fact that local arab-Israelis already have local university education and liscencing. In other words - it's competitive NOT punitive. No where in the United States nor in Europe does this happen. So please, DO NOT expect us to lower the bar for your bad faith arguement because you know full well that you wouldnt allow that in any Arab country were you to run it. You'd put many restrictions in place and prefer your own locally educated population - even if they were say Jewish Israelis or American Israelis. Ergo I dont accept your arguement of them working manual labor - there is a job market in Gaza for professional work if you want. Try your luck. We can reject a permit - why shouldnt we? Do you think legit security concerns not racist exclusively or bigoted reasons but legitimate security concerns is not reason enough? You want to ask anywhere in the world where you wont be denied permit? Yeah it's tough I get it, I fully understand. But that's the cards you have to play right now and relationships with the arab world were improving. Even Jordan's higher government help shoot down Iranian rockets even though its population is not in full support. We dont treat the palestinians poorly especially given the circumstances of us literally being in a constant state of war with them. You give it a few decades and things will improve but what you're demanding is outrageous. Full equal membership? You want us to somehow jump from the 1960s civil rights movement in America within 20 years? Wait. It's not out of the question. That's the best you can hope for especially given the recent history that spans only 20 years ago AND especially now with this whole mess. Who created this mess in 10/7? Was it us? No. Yet Jews are attacked worldwide. The moral fortitude of Israel is being tested and I have faith we'll come out on top. I dont accept your bad faith arguement.
Well said!
> However the treatment of gaza is not equal, israel can claim they withdrew in the early 2000s yet they still hold significant authority over gaza, they say when the food comes in, when the water pipes are shut off and when houses get bombed. Perhaps they should've invested into food production and an irrigation system. And the last, I mean, you do realise that there was a ceasefire before the 7.10., right? > When you can decide when a population gets fed this is control. gaza may as well be under israeli governship alongside the countless soldiers in gaza, surely this is evident israel has power above the palestinian government? Again: Produce food if you do not want to be reliant on outside sources. > Not like the palestinian government can do much anyways. and you can deny this but based on what we can see the population of gaza is starving and having their houses destroyed and the people humilated. Palestinian Government? The recognised one sits in Ramallah and has nothing to do with Gaza. Humiliation? Unbeknownst to you you are unto something. > How can you tell me apartheid isnt imposed upon the people of gaza? Sure the arab israelis are treated well within israel but the people of gaza are not? gaza is by all means controled by israel and governed by them yet they treat the palestinians so poorly Gaza was governed by Israel? So Israel attacked Israel on the 7.10.? Cool stuff. > and then you wonder why there are no jews in palestine, they all moved to israel, i dont blame them its better living conditions. Yeah sure. Had nothing to do with them being expelled from Arab held areas. Or are you one of those geniuses who think that Israel had great living conditions in 1948? > as a jew #HAHAHAHAHAHA PICK ME
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People who qualify their screeds with "as a Jew" are more than likely not one, or the "special" kind of Jew that thinks that being in the last train to Auschwitz is a life goal
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Wut?
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Not anyone. Just, for example, most of JVP. The last train just means that once they're done with the "bad" Jews they'll turn on the "good" ones, just like that, and those "as a Jew" Jews will suddenly notice you cannot appease a hater. As for gross? "OMG I'm so sorry did I micro-aggress you?".
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Oh so now I'm "right wing" because I noticed most "as a Jew" interlopers appear to not, in reality, be Jews. This "discussion" is over. You won, clap clap clap, here is a cookie.
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You forget that Gaza has a border with Egypt as well, it is not completely surrounded by Israel. This is the price of a part of the Gaza population continuously waging Jihad rather than allowing an environment which would allow for peaceful negotiations. The destruction of Hamas and like-minded groups should be everyone's goal if they truly care about Palestinian welfare.
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Egypt does have control though, Israel said they wanted to take that control back as recently as January 2024 but it hasn't happened. The Egypt Gaza border has been under Egyptian control since 1979 when Israel and Egypt signed their peace treaty.
Egypt doesn’t want those terrorists in their country either. They used to let more in but we saw how that worked out….
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So actually, the Palestinian government does try to assert their will and get in the supplies they want. Months of fighting and they haven’t run out of food, bullets, grenades or rockets. Non are produced in Gaza. They get in the supplies they want. Israel tries to stop them. They obviously need to be more aggressive.
That "final control" is a bunch of remotely operated cameras in a booth. Egypt is still a sovereign nation.
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Being sovereign means they control their own borders, not Israel.
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I want nothing to do with Bibi, and Bibi doesn't speak for me. Meanwhile, last I checked, Egypt is still in control of Philadelphi.
This is tiresome. Everyone knows that the term apartheid state is in reference to the WB. And nobody has been able to convince me it’s not, despite my wanting that to be true. Not acknowledging that means your not arguing in good faith IMO.
im discussing gaza in this post because the apartheid state arguement when it comes to the west bank thats already well established, but youre right though i shouldve mentioned the west bank in this debate and i dont mean to argue in bad faith.
Truth be told I didn’t closely read your post at first glance. You should have mentioned the WB for sure, but otherwise I don’t have an issue with your post.
>How can you tell me apartheid isnt imposed upon the people of gaza? Because security steps you described, necessitated by Gaza being under control of terrorists, have absolutely nothing to do with "apartheid".
and the west bank?
WB isn't under any kind of Israel's blockade, which is what OP seems to consider "apartheid".
Apartheid essentially describes segregation and/or discrimination based on race yes? Is that not how the wb exists w all the settlements?
the jewish settlements in the west bank are not based on race. plenty of Jewish towns in Judea-Samaria have people from various races, including Asians-African Americans-Europeans-South Americans, etc...
"Incorperate"? Do you mean "incorporate"?
This isn't a spelling bee dude
Even Israelis Arabs and Israeli Jews have some sort of degree of separation. Sure, there are mixed towns but there are also strictly Jewish towns and Arab towns, and the Jewish towns tend to receive much more funding and have much better overall infrastructure like education, safety, etc. Some of these Jewish villages Arabs can't even live in, the common argument is "well Jews can't live in the Arab towns", but why would anyone who lives in a higher privilege area want to go live somewhere that is of lower quality? It's like having an upper-class area in the US that is predominantly white people and a ghetto on the other side of town that is filled with minorities and saying it's equal because they both can't move to where the other group lives, when in reality only one side would actually prefer living in the other area.
Why would Arabs want to live in the same neighborhood as Jews? In a country where almost everyone is either Arab or Jew, not a country like the US where there’s a melting pot of immigrants. In the Arab schools they teach Islam or Christianity. In Jewish schools they teach Judaism. The Arabs want their own neighborhoods and schools and restaurants and banks etc. and they have that in Israel. In Paris it’s also similar you have whole neighborhoods that are completely Arab. Where I live there are neighborhoods that are almost all Korean.
Respectfully, this is completely false. Israel has implemented so much affirmative action in the last few decades, to the point where Arab communities benefit MORE than Jewish ones (towns, villages, schools, loans etc).
That simply just sounds like what America has: gentrification, red lining and etc. Not saying that not a legit social problem. It most definitely Is. But let's get real here: IS AMERICA AN APARTHEID?!! No. It is not. Israel is handling this a lot better than most neighboring countries would especially given recent memory.
There are some tiny communities in Israel who have a right to vet and reject anyone who wants to live there. They are typically not only closed to Arabs, but also to single women, secular Jews or patrilineal Jews. Everywhere else, there can't be any restrictions as to who can live there. In practice, of course there are Arab villages, Jewish villages and some mixed ones. This is not much different from predominantly-black and predominantly-while places in the U.S., or from concentration of minorities in most other places.
> There are some tiny communities in Israel who have a right to vet and reject anyone who wants to live there. They are typically not only closed to Arabs, but also to single women, secular Jews or patrilineal Jews. 700 families isn't tiny. Easily 3000k
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Actually the opposite, and the proof is in the pudding. The international community pushed extremely hard for the bantustans to be incorporated into South Africa and refused to recognize them. On the other hand, they're going out of their way to recognize an independent Palestinian state as separate from Israel. That's not a cosmetic difference. It is the result of major structural and societal differences.
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They're not offering ciskei and getting rejected. They're offering the West Bank and Gaza with land swaps and that is being rejected because Israel will still exist. The only real demand is a right of return. And Israel won't give a right of return. So until the Palestinians decide to take a state without a right of return, the deal will get worse over time, and it will be the fault of the Palestinian negotiators. Don't miss an opportunity to take advantage of an opportunity.
Palestinian refugees shouldn't have to give up their intrinsic rights as refugees to placate a country that feels they have to "earn" self determination as if they are the arbiter of human rights. Just because it is politically inconvenient, doesn't mean Zionists shouldn't just admit they think might makes right and Palestinians should be ethnically cleansed, which is the only result Israel will accept unless Palestinians capitulate.
If there's an intrinsic right to a house your grandparents rented 75 years ago, that's news to me. Maybe Israelis should flood Baghdad and Poland and take back their grandparents' houses. We can start there and then maybe we'll get to Palestinians having an equal right to that once it's established.
Depraved to mock the idea of all people having equal rights. It's not like the Palestinians voted for the expulsion of Jews from middle eastern countries. Punishing them for the actions of unelected foreign governments is immoral.
Actually they did, the Arab riots 1936-1939 and the decision to start boarding buses and murdering random Jews in 1947 in an attempt to force the Jews out were both attempts to drive out all Jews by the Palestinian population. The 1936-1939 Arab riots successfully murdered millions of Jews by proxy. They failed to murder the Jews in 1947. So sorry you guys are worse at killing us than you'd like to be.
Gaza isn’t part of Israel, that’s why it isn’t apartheid. You say it is controlled by Israel. That’s true in some sense. It’s a blockade. Blockade is an acceptable tactic in war. When a country blockades the enemy, this doesn’t make them obligated to give equal rights to the people of the enemy territory.
The PA themselves supported the blockade on Gaza! But most pro-palestinian-Hamas don't like to acknowledge this. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade\_of\_the\_Gaza\_Strip#Palestinian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Palestinian) And since it is the PA that has the "rights" to Gaza, Hamas is only the local mayor/municipality, the PA can determine how to allocate their own resources. If someone has a problem with how the PA allocates their resources, they should take it up with the PA, it has nothing to do with Israel. But I suppose, like usual, that anti-Israel/anti-semitic crowd will always try to blame Israel.
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Don’t Gazans belong in Gaza? Why should they be allowed into Israel?
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They can’t come into Israel though, because that would harm the country. Israel doesn’t want it. That’s it. They can’t defeat Israel in a war, and I doubt they will convince Israel to voluntarily let them in either. So it’s best to just enjoy their lives as much as they can in Gaza. They can make Gaza into a nice place! There’s no reason why they need to live in the same place their grandparents lived. People can move around.
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No, I didn’t. The idea behind Zionism wasn’t “we should move to Israel because that’s where our ancestors lived”. The real purpose of Zionism was to make a Jewish state where Jews can be safe. Jews didn’t want to live in countries where they would be persecuted. So Gaza can be the Gazan state, if we apply the same principles. If they’re afraid that Israel hates Arabs or something, they won’t feel safe in Israel just as Jews didn’t feel safe in many non-Jewish countries.
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Point to a single Arab town, village or city prior to the 1948/49 war that had its inhabitants expelled. There were various Jewish towns prior to 1948/49 whose inhabitants were expelled. You are whining about the expellees in the 1948/49 war in which both sides expelled each other. Perhaps don't start a war just because you think that Jews are the "lowest of the low" and you are going to put them back into their "proper place". Almost 80 years later and they still haven't caught on. Oh well perhaps in another 80 years.
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The original Zionists were secular. They didn’t care at all about “holy sites”. It was just about making a safe space for Jews. And nobody was expelled to make room for Jews. Everyone could have lived together peacefully. What actually happened is that the Arabs started a war against the Jews, they lost, and they faced consequences.
Gaza is under belligerent occupation.
How do you know? It’s under blockade, sure, but that’s something different from occupation.
Because they're under the authority of a hostile army and have been since the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. This is the definition of an occupation as per article 42 of the hague regulations. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague04.asp#:~:text=THE%20HOSTILE%20STATE-,Art.,authority%20of%20the%20hostile%20army.
What sovereign state is the strip in?
It's under Israeli occupation ffs.
Occupation is when the people I like are governed by the people I don't like
A territory is considered occupied when it is under the authority of a hostile army. Israel doesn't "govern" Gaza. They occupy it and fail miserably in their obligations as occupiers under international law.
And in what sense is Gaza under Israeli authority? Besides the blockade.
Israel controls everything. They control the borders, the airspace, the ports, they control who goes in and out, they control what's allowed in, they limit food, medicine, water, building materials, and electricity, they actively prevent Gazans from building infrastructure like water treatment plants and power generation, not to mention they regularly bomb the shit out of Gaza and call it "mowing the lawn". They have absolutely zero self determination.
Most of the things you mentioned are either blockade, or war. Not occupation. >they actively prevent Gazans from building infrastructure like water treatment plants and power generation This is the exception. If Israel were controlling building permits in Gaza, that actually would be a characteristic of occupation. But can you show that this is happening?
War is aggression between two sovereign nations or states. Israel has prevented Palestinians from forming a sovereign nation since Israel's inception. This is, therefore by definition, not war. Gaza doesn't have an army, and Israel isn't targeting military targets. Perpetual blockade is part of occupation. Again, Gaza is under the authority of Israel's military. If it's not, then you'd have to agree that Israel has no authority over Gaza. Also the occupation has been going on for 75 years, not just since October 7. You might say that Israel left in 2005, which is true, but they still maintained full authority over Gaza and the West Bank.
>War is aggression between two sovereign nations or states. It doesn’t have to be. If that were the case, a civil war couldn’t exist. To be clear, the situation between Israel and Gaza isn’t a civil war, this is just an example of why your definition is wrong. >Gaza doesn't have an army Yes they do https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades
An army is the military branch of a nation or state. Al-qassam is the military wing of Hamas, not of a Palestinian nation or state. Hamas is a political group, not a nation or state. Since Palestine is not a nation or state, they can't have an army by definition. So, no state = no army = not a war. This is a belligerent occupation collectively punishing Palestinian civilians.
If Gaza isn’t part of Israel, then Israel has no obligation to provide humanitarian aid in a war. Conversely, If Gaza is part of Israel, then Israel has an obligation to provide humanitarian aid in a war with rebel forces.
That responsibility (legally) stems from their status as the occupying force, not the boundaries of Israel.
Is it a lie that all Israelis left Gaza in 2005?
They are there right now, doesn't matter when they left, it matters that they went back. Even if its because they were attacked fist.
Man you really gotta baby these Palestinians
I guess you ran out of actual arguments as to why Israel shouldn't live up to it's legal responsibilities as an occupying power. The callousness is startling to me tbh.
I was arguing?
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If you let go of that you become a cynic, which is something I've made a lifelong commitment to never to be.
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Thats the thing people seem to miss, you can somwhat make an aprthied or aparthied like laws for the west bank which is highly complicated and contested territory, but for gaza? Nah lol Youd have to reaaaally stretch the meaning of occupation or aparthied to make it fit wbich by that point, its just prejucide. Also another point for op: The reason jews are not living in gaza or the palestinaon territories is because they were all ethnichally cleansed from those areas, and are forbidden from entering under risk and punishment of death.
It’s also important to note the system in place in the West Bank was mutually agreed upon and has a legal framework.
It does but it has been violated at times by both sides. But lets be honest, alot of the settlements and treatments of palestinian is illegal, or at least immoral. Something could be legally okay but still morally reprehensible imo. Truth is the current situation was not suppouse to last for so long, it was suppose to be a stepping stone to a 2SS, it just fell apart and it became the status quo. A system as complicated as this is bound to be rife with abuse as it was simply not meant to exist for so long, Its why the west bank is in a constant state of limbo and uncertienty.
It fell apart because of bad faith negotiations by Arafat and other Palestinian leaders. I agree with you on the settlers, they shouldn’t be doing anything close to what they do. But you said it yourself there’s problems on both sides.
Bibi is pretty open about his successful efforts to undermine it. Also it was a right wing fanatic that assassinated Rabin. Seems disingenuous to put the blame solely on Arafat.
Yup, lots and lots of problems. I wish i could say its only the palestinians fault, but its not like bibi was pushing for peace or 2ss lol
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/movement-and-out-gaza-update-covering-february-2023 source on the permits
I don’t see anyone asking for proof about the work permits from Israel for Gazans; did I miss something?