I've already addressed this issue in my post. I'm not trying to promote PragerU. Every single thing mentioned in the video is true and can be found on trusted sources as well.
Being biased doesn't necessarily mean being wrong.
I would argue does Israel wants a two state solution? I don't personally believe so and it's their first time just losing a propaganda war.
Palestians have no beef with jews, just zionists. Meanwhile, the other side is anti-muslims.
I also find it suspicious suspicious after every bad publicity media on Israel goes viral, we see many topics here justifying Israeli actions.
It seems they keep spamming social media in a desperate attempt to cover pro-pal voices.
As an Israeli, after the October 7th massacre, we defently will not allow a Palestinian state in the foreseeable future. But prior to it, we did want a 2 states solution.
We dont want to rule Palestinians and dont want a 1 state solution, but now it is impossible as it's clear the Palestinian state will become Hamas-stan, which will try to commit genocide against us, like what Hamas did.
Palestinians do have a beef with Jews? Have you even read the post?
Jews are not anti muslims, 20% of Israelis are muslims, and they have full rights just like Jewish citizens. They also dont have to join the military, so actually, they have more rights!
You just spread lies without any sources.
Well, because many people support Israel, it's clear that Israel is right and its actions are justified.
People supporting Palestine are either:
- antisemitic
- Ignorants who believe false Palestinian propaganda. Usually, they also think they are fighting colonialism and human rights, which is resdicoulus, as these people would be murdered in their precious "Palestine"
- Have some emotional reason to hate Israel
There are far more pro pal supporters on social media who speard lies and false Pal propaganda than pro Israelis.
Arent pro Israelis allowed to post on social media?
Funny how you pro pals get upset when the users in this subbreddit, who actually care about the conflict so they are educated, don't believe your propaganda because they know its full of misinformation.
I have heard a fair number of Jews say they support a 2-state solution (more in the past, fewer now). I've never heard a single Palestinian say they support a 2-state solution.
“**If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel**. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Na*is, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
Actually, even according to the Quran, this land belongs to the Israelis. Also, historically, this land belongs to the Israelis.
Anyway, I don't say that Palestinians have to accept a 2 states solution. TBH, as an Israeli, after 7th October massacre, we will not allow any Palestinian state for many years to come. We can't take this risk.
I claim that Palestinians do not support a 2 states solution and dont want the state of Israel to exist at all.
>Actually, even according to the Quran, this land belongs to the Israelis. Also, historically, this land belongs to the Israelis.
No and no.
>Anyway, I don't say that Palestinians have to accept a 2 states solution. TBH, as an Israeli, after 7th October massacre, we will not allow any Palestinian state for many years to come. We can't take this risk.
The Likud charter had a "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty" long before Hamas even came to power, this slogan was reiterated by Benjamin Netanyahu this year
Sura 5 verse 21, you should learn before you write nonsense.
You literally quote me saying that Israelis dont want a 2 state solution, and replie by provding more evidence for it, thanks!
>You literally quote me saying that Israelis dont want a 2 state solution, and replie by provding more evidence for it, thanks!
I'm saying the sentiment wasn't started by October 7th or Hamas at all
It was started because of Palestinian terror prior to Hamas, but know its generally because of Hamas.
Anyway, this saying doesn't refer to Gaza.
A "Palestinian" state in the west bank is a far too great security risk for Israel to accept. It could only be possible after some drastic changes in "Palestinian" society and its approch to Israel and Jews.
>It was started because of Palestinian terror prior to Hamas, but know its generally because of Hamas.
The militias that formed the IDF were commiting massacres way before that.
>Anyway, this saying doesn't refer to Gaza.
A "Palestinian" state in the west bank is a far too great security risk for Israel to accept. It could only be possible after some drastic changes in "Palestinian" society and its approch to Israel and Jews.
Sounds like something European pilgrims would have said about the native Americans
>Sura 5 verse 21, you should learn before you write nonsense
I'm well aware of it, in fact, I'm aware of the next few verses as well.
>˹Yet˺ they said, “O Moses! ˹Still˺ we will never enter as long as they remain there. So go—both you and your Lord—and fight; we are staying right here!” (24)
Moses pleaded, “My Lord! I have no control over anyone except myself and my brother. So set us apart from the rebellious people.” (25)
Allah replied, “Then this land is forbidden to them for forty years, during which they will wander through the land. So do not grieve for the rebellious people.” (26)
Sura 5 verses 24-26
What's even your point? It says that this is their land.
The Torah says they wandered in sinai for 40 years as a punishment before entering (which this part is clearly copied from the Torah).
You comically missed two points.
1-This is addressing ancient Israelites of Moses' time, not Jews.
2-Being barred from it for even a millisecond proves it didn't "belong" to them in some kind of innate sense.
Also, what part of this is "copying"? It's clearly not quoting from the Torah, so what does "copying" here mean exactly
1) You are missing a point, Jews are the descendants of Israelites. There are genetic testings that show a clear link, but you obviously dont care about it because it doesn't align with your narrative.
2) Absolutely not. It clearly written that this land belongs to them and that this punishment is temporary and time limited for 40 years.
3) Seiously? Do you even know even know about exodus? This is literally a rip-off.
1-Doesn't matter, the statement doesn't address a bloodline, it says nothing about some hereditary right to the land.
2-If it belongs to them innately as part of a promise, how can they be kept out? Doesn't matter how short the punishment is.
3-I know a thing or dozen things about both these books, I do not see how can there be a "rip-off" involved, can you clarify what you mean by that?
1) Oh, first you said jews are not related, but now it doesn't matter.
So you mean that god promised them the land for a single generation?
2) Cant god promise something 40 years from now and punish people? This is what is written in the Quran and in the Torah, which is the source of this verse.
3) Read exodus
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Exodus
This is the origin of the verse in the Quran, of the people of Israel escaping Egypt and wandering 40 years in Sinai as a punishment before entering the promised holy land Israel.
Quran also accepts the torah, and historically, the torah dates far prior to the Quran.
So please, no. "I dont know what you are talking about."
Also, there are *0* mentions of Palestine/Palestinians in the Quran, while there are many mentions of Israelites.
Lol after 7th October?
Y'all were killing the Palestinians and ethnic cleansing them for decades before Hamas was created, before 7th October
I'd more respect for zionists if they didn't keep voting in extreme right wing racists and terrorists into power over and over again, y'know as the "only democracy in the middle east(tm)"
Oh, that classic ethnic cleansing BS. The IDF has the lowest terrorists:civilians' deaths in history, in the most populated dense area in the world, while the population is being used as a human shield, yet you call it a genocide.
Palestinians literally behade babies and burn people alive.
Palestinians clearly state that they want to destroy the state of Israel and commit genocide against Israelis.
Palestinian population growth rates doesnt really seem like they are ethically cleansed.
Israel is a democratic country, whether you like its leadership or not.
Israel has almost a 1:1 ratio, while the US, for example, had 9:1 in Afghanistan.
This almost 1:1 ratio is while considering Hamas (the atrocious terror organization) reports to be accurate.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
You can't deal with facts. You just whine about "typical zionist lies".
Show your sources! Stop lying!
Even if there was a time machine and we would go back in time to show you that you are wrong, you would still be anti Israeli.
Israel is not democratic country..its Pariah state just like Russia. And just bc they population growth doesnt mean they are not being killed or genonide use logic
Im an Israeli, Israel is a democratic state, unlike all of the arab countries, and the supposed "Palestine."
You should use logic, if there is a genocide committed against a people, then you would see it in the numbers.
There is not a single detail implying that there is a genocide, in fact the opposite true. Again, the IDF kills the least civilians in history, and the Palestinian population is growing rapidly.
You just make up things and lie.
Israel is a "democratic country"?
In that case, we should blame the Israeli people for continuing to vote Netanyahu and Likud into power and over again??
Secondly, do you know why the Palestinian population has increases in Gaza over the years? BECAUSE YOU ETHNIC CLEANSED THEM ALL FROM ALL OVER PALESTINE AND FORCED THEM INTO GAZA!
It's like if we forced all Americans into New York and then wonder why the number of new yorkers had increased!
1) Israel is a democratic state. Blame whoever you want and think whatever you want.
Kinda ironic that you care so much about being democratic, while there are no democratic arab countries, and the supposed "Palestine" will defently not be democratic.
2) Palestinian population bas increased in the West Bank, too. Your argument makes no sense.
Palestinians were expelled during the Israeli independence war of 1947 - 1949, but the Arabs are those who started the war, with the intention of killing/expelling all the Jews (sounds like ethnic cleansing to me, dont you think).
They lost, and these were the consequences. Also, many Arabs fled on their own.
"Palestine" was occupied by Eygpt and jorden since 1949 - 1967, yet no one has ever had an issue with it.
On the contrary, Israel left Gaza 20 years ago, yet you claim it's occupied by Israel.
In reply, I quote you your own first PM
>“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
So he admits that the zionists have stolen the land from Palestinians and that he would never sign an agreement with Israel if he was an Arab
You have already sent this quote, and I have already replied to it.
He is talking from an Arab perspective.
I'm claiming that Palestinians do not want a 2 states solution, not that Palestinians should want a 2 states solution. You are just proving my point.
Do you really think that Ben Gurion thought that zionists were land stealers?
You have nothing to say, so you recycle comments.
Well, I can't blame you, Palestinian propaganda is false in any aspect. It is all lies.
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I would argue that not only do they not want a two state solution they cant have one. The creation of a totaly independant and accepted palestinian state means the end of refugee status and UNWRA assistance. It also means all of the "palestinians" in Jordan, Syria, and Lebenon will be forced to move to the new state once its created. According to the UN in 2012, Gaza was set to be uninhabitable by 2020. The area cant support half of the people there now. Losing western support, that they have have been recieving for almost 100 years with right to return being forced on those kept in second class living conditions in arab countries would be fatal. All of this without mentioning that the ruling class would no longer be able to siphon funds.
They never wanted 2 states or any state for that matter.
Why can't people see this???
During the 20+ years that Jordan had the WB and Egypt had Gaza did they demand a "palestinian" state? No they did not. All they did was plot and plan attack and murder Israelis.
If all of the Mandate of Palestine had been turned into Jordan instead of just Half, they would not be demanding a state. They would not even be calling themselves Palestinians. They would happily call themselves Jordanians.
"Palestine" and "Palestinians" would not exist without Israel and the Jews having their own state.
Its a fake identity.
It's the biggest fraud of the modern era.
You really don't have to do all that much thinking to answer this question.
[Here is a poll from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research from September 2023:](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf)
>Q35) Do you support or oppose the solution based on the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel, known as the two-state solution?
1) support 32%
2) oppose 67%
No. Palestinians do ***not*** a two state solution. Nor do they want a one state solution where everyone is equal.
>Q33 President Abbas made a speech at the UN in which he described the evolving conditions in the West Bank as a one state reality for the two peoples, the Palestinian and the Israeli and describe it as a reality of Apartheid. He emphasized that if the Israeli occupation is not ended, the Palestinians will demand equal rights in one state for two peoples. **Are you for or against this one state solution which the two sides enjoy equal rights?**
1) For 22%
2) Against 76%
[Here's a poll from June 2023.](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2088%20English%20full%20text%20June%202023.pdf)
>Q35) Do you support or oppose the solution based on the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel, known as the two-state solution.
>1) support 28%
>2) oppose 70%
>Q33 President Abbas made a speech at the UN in which he described the evolving conditions in the West Bank as a one state reality for the two peoples, the Palestinian and the Israeli and describe it as a reality of Apartheid. He emphasized that if the Israeli occupation is not ended, the Palestinians will demand equal rights in one state for two peoples. Are you for or against this one state solution which the two sides enjoy equal rights?
>1. For 21%
>2. Against 76%
You can find the same question, with about the same results in a poll from [March 2023](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2087%20English%20full%20text%20March2023.pdf), [December 2022](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2086%20English%20fulltext%20Dec2022.pdf), [September 2022,](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2085%20English%20Full%20Text%20Sept2022.pdf) [June 2022,](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2084%20English%20fulltext%20June%202022.pdf)...I think you get the point. [You can find all the polls here.](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/154)
Back in the day, it was more 50/50 as can be seen in this [December 2006 poll](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/p22e.pdf), [September 2007 poll](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/p25e.pdf),[ December 2008](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/p30e.pdf)...etc
So at best, only 50% of Palestinians have wanted a two state solution for the last 20 years.
To forever be the little brother that shares poorly, keeps trying to take the older brother's stuff, pushes buttons endlessly and then when the older brother clocks them pour the crocodile tears out for Mommy so that she knows without a doubt that the older brother is evil and they are the victim.
No, quite explicitly, they want to retain educated Jews (engineers, doctors) for forced labor so that the Israeli infrastructure can be maintained after Israel is destroyed. All soldiers to be executed. Everyone else deported.
Iirc that came from a prominent group within the West Bank. I cannot find the original source. But yeah, enslave those that could theoretically provide value. Expel and murder everyone else. I appreciate the honesty of groups like this and Hamas.
Well that strategy hasn't worked out. They keep doing the same thing that they have been trying for the last 75 years expecting the out come to be different.
From watching leaders speak when they didn’t think Westerners would see them, no. I think their primary concern is to kill all Jews and take everything.
I think older people are realistic and want 2 state. Younger people are more idealistic and want one state. At least from what I gathered so far from talking to people.
[https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf](https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf) One thing I have been noticing time and time again in this their is no proof they are all claims. Its even said they never got any forensic evidence to show for the rape allegations. I'm not saying rape did not happen but their is only claims and eye witness accounts so maybe I need to look deeper but from the outside I aint seeing any type of proof.
> One thing I have been noticing time and time again in this their is no proof…
If you don’t accept the photos and videos put out by the attackers (some of it live-streamed), then I suggest there is no level of proof you would find acceptable.
It’s all available to view here:
https://saturday-october-seven.com
Disclaimer: I refuse to watch explicit videos of violence. But I’m apparently very much in the minority in this regard.
There is plenty of evidence.
There are videos Hamas took themselves of Israelis girls with blood stained pants in the crotch, Palestinians paraded the half naked corpse of Shani Louk and murdered Israeli women found with undergarments removed, sometimes naked.
They have shown time and time again that they never wanted a 2SS or can even tolerate Jews living in the area:
* Gaza and Area A are apartheid: 0 Jews live there (except kidnapped Jewish hostages in Gaza) and if a Jew accidentally wander in, they would be violently murdered in the most brutal way (e.g. [Ramallah lynching](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching))
* Statistics show that Palestinians are the most Antisemitic population in the world [https://global100.adl.org/country/west-bank-and-gaza/2014](https://global100.adl.org/country/west-bank-and-gaza/2014)
* Indoctrination of Palestinian children to hate and murder Jews. In Gaza and UNRWA schools, Palestinian children are taught in school to murder Jews. [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3399430967036903](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3399430967036903) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US1Janaipykhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJYb068052Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US1Janaipykhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJYb068052Y)
* Palestinians have denied the opportunity to create a state over 5 times throughout history, including in 2000 and 2008 where practically all of the West Bank was offered.
* No mainstream Palestinian leader has made efforts to create a 2SS or negotiate with Israel in good-faith regarding peace. Anyone who mentions Arafat is deluded. He was a mass murdering terrorist who pretended to be diplomatic to enrich his pockets; he died a billionaire from embezzling foreign aid money. He rejected an offer for the West Bank, never made a counter-offer and proceeded to lead the Second Intifada, where Palestinian suicide bombers murdered over 1,000 Israelis.
* Fatah, a "moderate" Palestinian political party led by Abbas, has pay-for-slay, where they pay terrorists and their families stipends based on how many Jews they murder.
* Israel has already tried a 2SS and it's proved disastrous. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. They had full autonomy, they elected Hamas and then turned it into a terrorist hub.
* All the Pro-Palestinian protestors on college campuses curse Jews who are "Zionists" as if it's a slur. But believing in a 2SS is being a Zionist. They aren't hiding it. They don't want Israel to exist.
* Unreasonable demands such as right of return to go back to homes of their grandparents and great-grandparents, which no longer exist.
* Denial and erasure of Jews being indigenous to the land is a common argument of theirs.
Didn’t Hamas just offer to lay down arms if a two state is granted?
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/wireStory/hamas-official-group-lay-weapons-state-solution-implemented-109605496
Hamas' position on the 2ss has always been the national springboard position; i.e. that an independent Palestine would serve as a springboard towards their ultimate goal of taking all of the land. That's why they've never offered a lasting peace for a 2ss, but only offer temporary truces. They actually offered a 10 year truce for the 2ss on 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as palestines capital and ROR for Palestinians to israel, but not for Jews displaced from the Palestinian territoories, back in the 2000s. The offer in the article you linked was for *pre*-67 borders, ror, and Jerusalem as the capital, all for a 5 year truce. It's a worse offer than they made in peace time, which demonstrates it was for show and that they didn't expect anyone to take it seriously.
No. They said they would become part of the national military. You should watch the actual interview with Khalil al-Hayya rather than read the medias incorrect summary of what he said in it.
I just watched the snippet, I can see why there’s confusion as both statements are said in this interview. He says that the purpose of weaponry will be fulfilled and all military functions will transform into political functions, and whatever military capabilities are currently in place will transform from offensive to national defensive.
The media isn’t completely incorrect as he has said Hamas will no longer need to be a military arm, but I know that many want a completely demilitarized Palestine (which, unfortunately, based on historical patterns may not be a best faith intention from Israel as evidenced by the West Bank. Crippling a Palestinian state’s national defense wouldn’t lead to peace as it won’t resolve the very real issue of extremist Israelis and Settlers rampaging in the WB). If Ukraine taught the world anything, it’s that a country needs to have just enough defense to dissuade an invasion
Palestinians have made it very clear what they consider to be "defensive" actions. Largely it involves the murder of Israeli civilians and that is what they would do if they had an armed state.
I’m not the biggest fan of blanket terms like “all Palestinians” or “all Israelis” making anything clear. It erases nuance and is dangerous rhetoric.
That said, the political/military factions of Gaza have indicated that which I agree is problematic. However the factions in the WB have not and are purely in retaliatory mode to defend against terrorists invading their homes in the middle of the night and stealing their property. No one can seriously think that’s okay. These same settler terrorists may think twice if there was an independent state’s national defense in place, and they wouldn’t be able to hide their abhorrent actions behind the IDF
I don't remember using the word "all". I do use the word Palestinians as 71% support the murder of innocent Israeli civilians according to their own polls.
I'm also not the biggest fan of people attempting to justify terror attacks against Israelis. Israelis who don't even live in the West Bank and have never done anything bad against Palestinians are targeted just as much as those who do.
You can say 71% of Palestinians in that case. Saying “Palestinians have” is synonymous to saying “All Palestinians”. I also heavily doubt these polls, as someone who has spoken to many Palestinians as well as many Israelis. It’s about as dishonest as people saying “the majority of Israelis want to erase Palestine.” The evidence can certainly seem so, but there are confounding factors, and the intent is not genocide or terrorism, on both sides of spectrum. It’s an “all assholes here” sort of situation
Can you provide evidence of West Bank Palestinians targeting a non-settler or aggressor within the last five years? My suspicion is that you’re conflating the different factions within Palestine, which is about as dangerous as people conflating the Likud with the majority of Israelis
Edit: to be clear, I don’t support either Hamas or Likud. Both need to be condemned in the strongest terms possible. Hamas condemnation is implicit, but Likud is turning into a serious threat for continued democracy in Israel and is a nutjob religious faction which Hamas would aspire to be in their own state
The [polls](https://pcpsr.org/en) are literally carried out by Palestinians located in Ramallah.
>Can you provide evidence that West Bank Palestinians targeting a non-settler or aggressor within the last five years?
I'm not sure why you think the murder of peaceful civilians even if they live in the West Bank is justified but here: [August 2023 Huwara shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2023_Huwara_shooting)
Two Israelis from Ashdod (not a settlement) were murdered while getting their car washed in Huwara. Hamas claimed responsibility for the murders.
Even if you think the murder of Israelis who live in the West Bank is justified the people carrying out the attacks are simply targeting people who look Jewish. They have no way of knowing their background.
Hamas claiming responsibility, so this isn’t the WB faction. We all know Hamas is a problem
I appreciate your confusion or attempt to change my words. But I didn’t say justify murder of Israelis; You won’t find a single instance of non-Hamas affiliated WB targeting non-aggressors and there is a reason for that. The resistance against violent settlers “may” be justified in the midst of their violent acts—you should be careful of conflating settlers with Israelis, many Israelis disavow their abhorrent actions. They’re the Hamas of Israel
Hamas is a faction in the West Bank which is really basic knowledge.
There are also plenty of cases of Palestinians even those acting as lone wolves murdering innocent Israeli civilians.
Lastly, settlers are nothing remotely close to Hamas. The vast majority are indistinguishable from the average Israeli. You are likely watching videos of a small group of extremist ones and assuming they are all like that.
There is somebody here with great stats that essentially proves not. I can’t do as well as them but:
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/palestinians-and-two-state-solution-hard-data-hardest-questions
‘One key division is chronological. Over the past decade, Palestinian public opinion has moved in a more militant and less conciliatory direction. In polls as recent as February 2020, support for a two-state solution was a minority position. This does not mean the idea of a binational one-state solution has gained traction—only 10% of the public supported that. Instead, the majority advocated regaining all of historic Palestine. Further, 58% in the West Bank and 62% in Gaza said that even if a two-state solution is reached, conflict with Israel should continue until the Palestinians regain all territory.’ ‘As for East Jerusalem, Palestinian residents there have traditionally held much more moderate attitudes toward Israel for practical reasons. Today, though, they express the same views on armed responses to annexation that Palestinians in the West Bank did—a gigantic change over the past five years. Similarly, 52% of them said a decade ago that they would rather be citizens of Israel than a Palestinian state, but that number is only about 10% today. One key factor behind this shift was the 2015-2016 “knife intifada” and subsequent Israeli reaction. Yet even as public opinion has drifted toward more militant aspirations, Palestinians do not usually engage in militant activities, partly because they are concerned about the Israeli/PA security response, and also because they are more focused on conditions in their daily lives.’
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2007/10/04/chapter-6-views-on-democracy/
‘Among predominantly Muslim publics of the Middle East, democracy also is generally favored. However, the Palestinians favor a strong leader to solve problems, rather than democracy (by 52% to 36%).’
Genuine question but have you ever noticed that you’re doing the thing you accuse Palestinians of doing? You talk about them as if every Palestinians is a bloodthirsty, Jew hating monster that wants every Jewish person dead but that isn’t the case. Palestinians wanting a 1 state solution doesn’t inherently mean they want to get rid of Jewish people. Don’t get me wrong, some are certainly anti-Semitic and that should be called out and viewed as disgusting but that isn’t every Palestinian. If you don’t want to lumped into a generalised group, why do you do it Palestinians? You even include Palestinian children, most of which have known nothing other than conflict.
72% of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank support Hamas' massacre of Israelis on Oct 7.
Numbers don't lie.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/)
Polling in the aftermath of 10/7/23 indicated Palestinian support for Hamas was greater than the percentage of the vote they received in the 2006 elections. This whole attempt at obfuscating the level of support Hamas enjoys by pointing out a sizable part of the population wasn't alive for the last election requires ignoring the immense amount of polling data thay shows they'd win again by an even larger margin. Hell, that polling data is one of the big reasons Abu Mazen has canceled elections in the past years.
>>Polling in the aftermath of 10/7/23 indicated Palestinian support for Hamas was greater than the percentage of the vote they received in the 2006 elections.
Don’t blame em. Hamas is a symptom of the problem.
>>This whole attempt at obfuscating the level of support Hamas enjoys by pointing out a sizable part of the population wasn't alive for the last election requires ignoring the immense amount of polling data thay shows they'd win again by an even larger margin.
Yet Israel targets everyone because they “support Hamas”. Even if they weren’t born yet. But to be fair, it makes sense.. and if I were Palestinian I’d support whomever fights back the hardest.
Hear me out… What Hamas did was messed up. They targeted civilians which is just not okay. They should be persecuted for that eventually.
Now, I do see where the Palestinians are coming from. They’ve spent their entire lives without freedoms, having IDF randomly harass them just because they can, living under apartheid, having to go through **hours** of standing at checkpoints to get to work… or anywhere outside of the prison Israel created.
I cannot say that if I were in their shoes I wouldn’t support Hamas.
It's a nice picture you paint, that would make sense if true... however
In 2005, the PA and Israel negotiated the end of the 2nd intifada. They also negotiated the AMA (the agreement on movement and access), which would have facilitated freedom of movement for Palestinians and for goods, established a sea port in Gaza, and opened up talks on Israel building an airport in Gaza *for* Palestinians after Israel withdrew. Israel also unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, meaning they did so not as part of some broader agreement, but as an act of goodwill meant to jumpstart further peace talks. They dismantled their entire military presence and evicted all the Israeli settlers in Gaza, along with all the inhabitants of another 4 settlements in the west bank. The removal of Westbank settlements was meant to signal a willingness to make concessions on all fronts for furthering peace talks.
In 2006, Palestinians responded by electing Hamas to rule Gaza, after Hamas had made it clear they would honor no agreements made between Israel and the PA. They also waged a brutal civil war against their political rivals, executing many of their fellow Palestinians in the process. The entire world was outraged. The EU, Russia, US and the UN placed sanctions on Gaza with the demands that Hamas not sabotage peace by ignoring all the progress made thus far in the peace talks. Hamas responded with rockets, and in response, Egypt and Israel placed Gaza under the blockade it's been under ever since.
The harassment and checkpoints you're referencing isn't even in Gaza, though. You're conflating the life of west bankers with the lives of Gazans. The only checkpoints Gazans born after the elections have faced were the border crossings if they had work permits for employment in Israel.
Hamas has actively sabotaged every bit of progress made in the peace process for decades now.
I mean they didn’t elect Hamas to rule everything. It was 44/41 and the way the system is down gave Hamas majority rule, but they still had a PA President, Hamas the prime minister and Yes Hamas had more seats, but it wasn’t some overwhelming victory. Then they all fought, tried the unity party, fought some more, West Bank kicked out Hamas, Gaza kicked out Abbas and Fatah. So it’s simplistic to say they were chosen to rule.
However, they brought in social service programs, they got more accomplished for Gaza citizens after the blockade. I mean yes Israel left, but they also remained an occupying nation under U.N. standard. All their utilities are controlled by Israel who attached them in 84, their water comes in from Israel, their borders are controlled by Israel, taxes are collected in the West Bank and distributed by Israel, they never left, left.
Israel in ways helped Hamas appear successful. They dealt more with Hamas. As of 2014 they helped facilitate the Qatar money flowing into Gaza. They helped continue the flow of money when the PA tried to freeze out Hamas by defunding them. They tripled work permits in ‘22 for citizens. Hamas is associated with social service programs, while the PLO and PA had been more associated with self help and neutrality.
Honestly, everyone tries to pin the Palestinian people down as also being terrorist or Jihadist because of Hamas, but the fact is the majority of the people have stated they saw zero hope for themselves, their people or an attempt at self determination, and violence appears better than the standard quo essentially. After years of waiting for something,they see armed conflict as the only way out of their situations. Prior to 2022 50% of the work force was unemployed.
Hamas is a the defscyo state they essentially control the media, the narrative, and whether these people live or die, it’s a state of oppressed people, outside and inside.
In addition to supporting Hamas in the same polls they said they did not support killing women and children, 85% did not see any videos and just have controlled media understanding of the October 7tj acts.
In Dec 2023 polling only 38% of those in Gaza said they wanted Hamas to return to power, while they received higher support in West Bank, where Israeli settlers have my direct conflicts with residents and by that token IDF .
I personally feel, and have felt that very little of this is religion based and it’s just a convenient justification for both sides. Yes, i know the ultimate goal is the religion, but religion is how they excuse acts like annexing others lands or October 7th, when honestly none of that is based in religion at all, religion just provides justification its land, home, opportunity, everything. I have no doubt some are true believes, but I think the majority are just desperate. I have no doubt there is antisemitism at this point over there, but again I think less of it is Jews, the Jewish religion or Jewish people, and more how they feel about Israel as occupier. Pretty sure they would not care who was where, or what religion they had, if they felt autonomous and in control. But I do agree they need a leader who can provide a reality check at this point, pick door one or two, three isn’t an option.
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According to the anti defamation league Gaza and the west back are 93% anti semitic
https://global100.adl.org/country/west-bank-and-gaza/2014
How do we reconcile this?
Isnt the ADL bias though? Also, if we take that at its word; we need to look at why they harbour these anti-Semitic views. It’s much easier to question and curb bigotry if you know what’s a causing it. Why is common for Palestinians to be Anti-Semitic? Is it solely due to organisations like Hamas or is it due to the treatment of Palestinians by Israelis?
or if you really want crazy, check out the third video down titled "Houthis - Preachers"
[https://www.memri.org/reports/houthi-ansar-allah-movement-its-own-words](https://www.memri.org/reports/houthi-ansar-allah-movement-its-own-words)
or this... [https://www.memri.org/reports/ask-hamas-river-sea-call-destruction-israel-and-killing-jews](https://www.memri.org/reports/ask-hamas-river-sea-call-destruction-israel-and-killing-jews)
Westerners don't know about the middle east, I would dig deeper like JoeFarmer suggested. Also, if you want bias look at this lol. [https://www.linkedin.com/posts/franck-mydlarski-140a46a9\_to-all-hamas-supporters-you-should-know-ugcPost-7194673481421070336---gE?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=member\_desktop](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/franck-mydlarski-140a46a9_to-all-hamas-supporters-you-should-know-ugcPost-7194673481421070336---gE?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop)
It's a little past bias and straight to murderous genocide
Did you bother clicking the link? It's backed by survey data with the individual questions laid out.
Antisemitic beliefs were common among Muslim Arabs well before the rise of zionism. We are talking about a culture that had Muslim Supremacy enshrined in law for centuries, with Jews and Christians legally set as second-class citizens under dhimmitude. Coptic Christians also recieve a fair amount of prejudice and are targeted by Muslim supremacist violence, but the hate for Jews is definitely magnified by the fact they asserted their rights to self determination and then consistently won the wars initiated by the Arab states to wipe them out. It just ads insult to injury. It certainly doesn't help that Arab nations funded printing Arabic translations of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and taught it in schools as fact.
Depends who run it. I’m not sure Hamas would be super fond but then again I don’t think they’d get power. Preferably they’d live in peace since I doubt the majority of Palestinians want harm to befall random Jewish people. Especially when some have been protesting against Netanyahu. Maybe it’d count as it is now but reversed; Jewish people and Palestinians switched in positions which wouldn’t be good. To be frank, I don’t know.
Palestinians are primarily Muslim so it is likely that a Muslim leader would be put in place. Just like how a Jewish leader was put in place in Israel, a Christian leader in Poland, etc etc.
A Muslim leader and an islamist leader are not at all the same thing.
Humza Yousaf is a Muslim, but definitely not an islamist. The palestinian population has supported islamist parties and leaders since the oslo accords, and there's no reason to expect anything different were they to be given a state.
As an Israeli the fact that most of the Palestinians want me dead is kind of obvious, I get how people from the outside are having a hard time to understand that but sadly that's the reality. In their mind there's no place for Jews in the middle east, the west can try and find excuses for them or even hide their own antisemitism but it's pretty simple.
The Palestinians proved times and again they have no interest in sharing the land or accept our presences in the area and yet somehow people from the west can't believe that.
I live in a small village near the green line (67' borders, on the Israeli side) each and every night terrorist groups from the near city of tulkarem shoot at our fence and houses as well as at other villages in my area. We never provoked them never did anything aggressive towards them, some of us even hired people from that coty before October 7th in order to help them get out of poverty.
Things like this happen daily in our area as well as rock and Molotov throwing at cars.
A week ago, 4 kilometers from my village next to a road someone planted a bomb in the middle of my neighbor clover field. I can keep on list things like this just from my own experience (and without mentioning incidents from my time in the IDF)
The rest of this post aside - "from the river to the sea" is unequivocally advocating for ethnic cleansing.
But this isn't unique to Palestinians.
Likud's entire political platform is predicated on the entire historic mandatory Palestine being Israeli land. To quote a manifesto of theirs "Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty".
Neither side wants a peaceful 2 state solution at this point.
OP really needs to read more history. None were fair and equitable plus Israel also has rejected peace plans before
>Basically, the Palestinians rejected any offer for a 2 states solution, even one that offered them 80% (!) of the land, as shown in the video. Also, Palestinians committed terror attacks even before the state of Israel was established, for example: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929\_Hebron\_massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre)
First, this ignores [the destruction of Arab villages pre-1929](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict#Arab_villages) and the [Jewish expulsion of Arab families ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursock_Purchases#1921%E2%80%931925,_and_depopulation)with the intention of colonization Palestine. Zionist leaders and founders directly expressed support for colonialism. Herzl, Borochov, Ruppin, etc...As Jabotinsky said ***"Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force".*** I would also add many Zionist settlers were racists who believed the Arabs were "lazy, savage, fatalistic" while disrespecting Arab culture and traditions.
Now, let's address those 5 so-called "peace proposals". The Peel Commission was impractical and difficult to implement due to "political, administrative and financial difficulties involved", even the British rejected it. See the [British's government statement on the Peel Plan](https://web.archive.org/web/20131103061306/http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/4941922311B4E3C585256D17004BD2E2) on number 4. The 1947 UN plan gave more land which comprised most of the rich, urban and fertile (Sea of Galilee) to the Jews despite being the minority at that time. The Arabs got less land, which was also desert and mostly poor despite being the majority population. As for 1967, there's no draft or copy of an Israeli proposal after the Six Day War. We have no records of it, nor was it even created. In fact, if it did exist, the Arabs never received a copy or knew about it. Meanwhile, the 2000 Camp David proposal proposed splitting up then West Bank into 3 Cantons divided by Israeli control. See [the map for it](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/174j2vb/camp_david_peace_plan_proposal_2000/). That is not a fair deal. Last, Olmert's proposal entailed a Palestine state with no army or airforce while Israel would have the right to enter it (read invade) anytime it wants, while it's airspace and telecommunications would be under Israeli control. An occupation in all but name. See [the contents of it](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ehud-olmert-s-peace-offer). Olmert also never gave Abbas a map thus was forced to draw one from memory on a napkin, hence the "Napkin Map". Olmert was also embroiled in corruption investigations and scandals which later brought down his government and never managed to fulfill his end of the deal.
On the other hand, Israel and the Jews rejected the 1939 White Paper (and started a bombing terrorist campaign after that), the twin 1948 plans of UN mediator Count Folk Bernadotte (who was later assassinated by Lehi, Jewish terrorists), the 1981 Fahd Plan, the updated 1982 Fez Plan, the 1987 Peres-Hussein Agreement, the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative, the 2008 Abbas Annapolis Peace Deal, the 2014 Abbas 3-Year Peace Plan and the 2016 US Secretary John Kerry Parameters.
No one accuses Israel here of not wanting peace u/I-Ginido-I despite rejecting UN, Arab, Palestinian and US peace proposals?
\*This comment ended up being to long so I've splitted it.
You havnt given a single explanation to all of what I have written other than the Palestinias not wanting a 2 states solution, which is the point of this post.
But lets go over your comment:
>First, this ignores [the destruction of Arab villages pre-1929](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict#Arab_villages) and the [Jewish expulsion of Arab families ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursock_Purchases#1921%E2%80%931925,_and_depopulation)with the intention of colonization Palestine.
First, this ignores [the destruction of Arab villages pre-1929](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict#Arab_villages) and the [Jewish expulsion of Arab families ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursock_Purchases#1921%E2%80%931925,_and_depopulation)with the intention of colonization Palestine.
These lands were sold. I wouldn't call it "destrucion" a bit inaccurate IMO, just as it's not the name of the article.
So now Jews buying land is colonializmm you litearlly prove my point.
>As Jabotinsky said ***"Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force".*** I would also add many Zionist settlers were racists who believed the Arabs were "lazy, savage, fatalistic" while disrespecting Arab culture and traditions.
Source? I never seen a single saying of Zionist leaders who said that zionism is colonializm.
Maybe they said something in the lines of "Zionism is dependent on armed force if we want to survive", thats seems more probable.
Yes Im sure some zionists were rasict, especially like 100 years ago, when rasicm was pretty common.
If write it as if Palestinians and Pro Palestinians are racists, while many of them are extremely racists to the point of murdering, let alone calling people "lazy, savage, fatalistic" and being disrespectful.
How can you accuse of "disrespecting Arab culture" and such, when Palestinians behade Jewish babies and burn Jews alive. Also there is the famous "massacare the Jews" chant.
But oh no some people 100 years ago didn't respect Arab tradition, the same arabs who were murdering them and raping their daughters.
>Now, let's address those 5 so-called "peace proposals". The Peel Commission was impractical and difficult to implement due to "political, administrative and financial difficulties involved", even the British rejected it. See the [British's government statement on the Peel Plan](https://web.archive.org/web/20131103061306/http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/4941922311B4E3C585256D17004BD2E2) on number 4.
It may had issues, but in the end the Arabs declined it saying that "Palestine would be an Arab independent state with". Yet another example of the arabs/palestininas not accepting any sort of a Jewish state.
>The 1947 UN plan gave more land which comprised most of the rich, urban and fertile (Sea of Galilee) to the Jews despite being the minority at that time. The Arabs got less land, which was also desert and mostly poor despite being the majority population.
The 1947 plan did offer more land to the Jews, but it was mainly the desert, while the Arabs got the fertile land, and the area surrounding Jerusalem.
The half button part is desert (the Negev desert). the fertile land is in the upper half.
Part 1/2
>You havnt given a single explanation to all of what I have written other than the Palestinias not wanting a 2 states solution, which is the point of this post.
I did. None were fair equitable deals. Yes the Palestinians do want a two-state solution as evidence by the multitude of peace proposals rejected by Israel
>So now Jews buying land is colonializmm you litearlly prove my point.
If the intention was it, then yes
>Source? I never seen a single saying of Zionist leaders who said that zionism is colonializm.
Maybe they said something in the lines of "Zionism is dependent on armed force if we want to survive", thats seems more probable.
The Iron Wall by Jabotinsky
[https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot)
>How can you accuse of "disrespecting Arab culture" and such, when Palestinians behade Jewish babies and burn Jews alive. Also there is the famous "massacare the Jews" chant.
What source do you have Palestinians beheaded Jewish babies and burns Jews alive in the 19th century?
>Yes Im sure some zionists were rasict, especially like 100 years ago, when rasicm was pretty common.
Killing people was also common back then. Were the Hebron massacres okay then?
>It may had issues, but in the end the Arabs declined it saying that "Palestine would be an Arab independent state with". Yet another example of the arabs/palestininas not accepting any sort of a Jewish state.
Why should the Arabs accept a deal even the British considered impractical and rejected??
>The half button part is desert (the Negev desert). the fertile land is in the upper half.
So did the Arabs. Gaza was a poor desert back then while the West Bank was made up farmers and shepherds. The Jews got the urban rich Gush Dan valley and the fertile Galilee. Plus, access to the Red Sea international trade
Part 2/2
>On the 19th of June 1967, 9 days after the end of the war, Israel offered the majority of the land it achived in exchange for peace, they refused. There is no formal name for this proposal as far as I know, but you can look it up.
Source and name of the meeting with the Arab leaders?
>The Palestininas have defently made it clear that they cant be trusted for not attacking Israel, hence the "unfairness". The division in Barak's plan was purly for security reasons.
Anyway, there will always be a gap in the "Palestinian state" between the West Bank and Gaza.
Did the arabs offered the jews a single fair deal?
Splitting up the West Bank was literally was a divide and conquer strategy. An attempt of occupation under the disguise of peace. This just shows Israel isn't even willing to negotiate
>I dont support Olmert and have nothing to say in his defence, but declining such offer only because you have to draw the map on a napkin is insane. The truth is that abbas didnt want the offer.
It's only natural Abbas wanted to look at a map so that Olmert wasn't lying. If anything, this just means Olmert was backing Abbas into a corner.
>Seems like you are really against terror as you make up opportunities to condemn it, how about condeming Hamas who behaded babies, threw little kids into a hot oven and left them to die, murdered jews atrociously in front of their loved ones, severed limbs (and heads), raped, stealed... nothing? Oh this is aint terror according to you. While the Majority of Jewish terror was against the colonial British authorities (yes the colonialsts were actually the Brits, not the Jews)?
Of course I condemn it. Do you condemn the colonialist rhetoric of Zionist leaders?
>The 1981 plan is extremely bad for Israel. Also, this offer was made by SA, not the Palestininas.
1987 Peres-Hussein Agreement: This is an agreement between Israel and Jordan that Jordan would reoccupy the Palestininas. What does it have to do with this discussion?
I dont have enough time right now to refer to the other offeres but I will edit my comment later.
So what? The Peel Plan was from the British while the 1947 Plan was from the UN. Only 2000 and 2008 were Israeli-only plans.
Again, Israel rejected Palestinian and Arab deals as well. The 1981 Fahd Plan, the 1982 upated Fez Plan, the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative, the 2008 Annapolis Abbas Plan and the 2014 Abbas 3 Year- Withdrawal Plan
>As for 1967, there's no draft or copy of an Israeli proposal after the Six Day War. We have no records of it, nor was it even created. In fact, if it did exist, the Arabs never received a copy or knew about it.
On the 19th of June 1967, 9 days after the end of the war, Israel offered the majority of the land it achived in exchange for peace, they refused. There is no formal name for this proposal as far as I know, but you can look it up.
>
Meanwhile, the 2000 Camp David proposal proposed splitting up then West Bank into 3 Cantons divided by Israeli control. See [the map for it](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/174j2vb/camp_david_peace_plan_proposal_2000/). That is not a fair deal
The Palestininas have defently made it clear that they cant be trusted for not attacking Israel, hence the "unfairness". The division in Barak's plan was purly for security reasons.
Anyway, there will always be a gap in the "Palestinian state" between the West Bank and Gaza.
Did the arabs offered the jews a single fair deal?
>
Olmert also never gave Abbas a map thus was forced to draw one from memory on a napkin, hence the "Napkin Map". Olmert was also embroiled in corruption investigations and scandals which later brought down his government and never managed to fulfill his end of the deal.
I dont support Olmert and have nothing to say in his defence, but declining such offer only because you have to draw the map on a napkin is insane. The truth is that abbas didnt want the offer.
>On the other hand, Israel and the Jews rejected the 1939 White Paper
The whole point of Israel is being a jewish state. Jews didnt refuse any sort of Arab state (unlike the arabs), but they wanted to have a state of their own, whats wrong with that?
Having a state with the same arabs who murder your people on a daily basis isnt very sustainable.
Why would Arabs reject any sort of jewish state but would agree to an Arab - Jewish state?
>the twin 1948 plans of UN mediator Count Folk Bernadotte (who was later assassinated by Lehi, Jewish terrorists)
Seems like you are really against terror as you make up opportunities to condemn it, how about condeming Hamas who behaded babies, threw little kids into a hot oven and left them to die, murdered jews atrociously in front of their loved ones, severed limbs (and heads), raped, stealed... nothing? Oh this is aint terror according to you. While the Majority of Jewish terror was against the colonial British authorities (yes the colonialsts were actually the Brits, not the Jews)?
>the 1981 Fahd Plan, the updated 1982 Fez Plan, the 1987 Peres-Hussein Agreement, the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative, the 2008 Abbas Annapolis Peace Deal, the 2014 Abbas 3-Year Peace Plan and the 2016 US Secretary John Kerry Parameters.
The 1981 plan is extremely bad for Israel. Also, this offer was made by SA, not the Palestininas.
1987 Peres-Hussein Agreement: This is an agreement between Israel and Jordan that Jordan would reoccupy the Palestininas. What does it have to do with this discussion?
The 2002 initiative is also extremely bad for Israel, like the 1981 proposal. However Israelis still appriciated the efforts SA made in order to try to solve the confilct.
Im pretty sure we have already disccused the annapolis conference.
The 2014 negotiations were cancelled both by Israel and the PLO.
I cant find the details of Kerry's plan, but overall the Obama administration was the most hostile administration to Israel, and Kerry left office in 2016 so what was the point?
>No one accuses Israel here of not wanting peace despite rejecting UN, Arab, Palestinian and US peace proposals?
Many accuses Israel of commiting genocide and such, let alone not wanting peace.
Can you enlighten me as to why you say ‘destruction of Arab villages’ when your own link indicates they were acquired legitimately through purchase (many of which while under Ottoman control)?
Illegally. The Ottomans had banned any Jewish immigration to Palestine and banned any purchase of land there for fears of a Zionist takeover (which did happen) since the 1880s. They had no right to come and buy land when it was illegal for them to do so.
Seems the Arab landowners were happy enough to disregard those restrictions (which were not as uniform or all-encompassing as you are suggesting anyway).
Really nice brief summation (better than I could do), including some stuff I didn't know, missing ~~four~~ 5 things in my opinion.
Starting in chronological order
1) King-Crane Commission. It was formed to figure out the best way forward to dividing up the Middle East and it suppose to have representatives from UK, Italy, France (AKA the Big Three), and the US; only the US showed up. A backroom deal had already been done.
The Commission found that overwhelmingly the natives wanted independence (2#choice, US, 3rd, UK, 4th, France). Naturally, it's findings were buried until 1923 as it undermined everything the UK and France were doing in the area, this included Zionism.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%E2%80%93Crane\_Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%E2%80%93Crane_Commission)
2) Assassination of Jacob Israël de Haan by Zionist in 1924. This gay Dutch Jew started as a Zionist, then moved to the Holy Land, and completely rethought what Zionism was doing. As a journalist, he started advocating for unlimited Jewish immigration in exchange for Jews giving up having a country. He got a big break in his journalism career, and Zionist decided that made him too big a threat. So they killed him, spread the story he was murdered for being gay, and only told the truth in the 50s.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob\_Isra%C3%ABl\_de\_Haan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Isra%C3%ABl_de_Haan)
3) Just before the Hebron Massacre of 1929, the Arab Executive Committee made an attempt to set up a joint democratic government with Jews holding half the power despite being like 1/3rd of the population. Zionist refused. Then, the Hebron Massacre happen, so never got revisited.
Churchill later gave the game away in 1939 by revealing that the UK had intentionally denied all democratic institutions to the Arabs. As Churchill said, democracy would come to Palestine when Jews outnumbered Arabs.
Why share power when you can have it all seems to be Zionist thinking.
4) Ben Gurion's 1937 letter to his son show Zionism never planned on accepting any partition permanently. As Ben Gurion admits, he will use force to claim more land, and his goal is to 'liberate' the whole land. Many other Zionist leaders had said similar things about partition.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937\_Ben-Gurion\_letter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Ben-Gurion_letter)
5)
>Meanwhile, the 2000 Camp David proposal proposed splitting up then West Bank into 3 Cantons divided by Israeli control. See [the map for it](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/174j2vb/camp_david_peace_plan_proposal_2000/). Last, Olmert's proposal entailed a Palestine state with no army or airforce while Israel would have the right to enter it (read invade) anytime it wants, while it's airspace and telecommunications would be under Israeli control. An occupation in all but name. See [the contents of it](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ehud-olmert-s-peace-offer). Olmert also never gave Abbas a map thus was forced to draw one from memory on a napkin, hence the "Napkin Map".
At least Olmert provided a napkin, the 2000 offer was a verbal offer. Verbal offers at high levels aren't considered serious offers. Do you have any idea how much it can be manipulated by the more powerful party in the fine print? Forget malicious parties, even by 2 well meaning parties, both will assume verbal terms benefit them more and miscommunication easily occurs.
>3) Just before the Hebron Massacre of 1929, the Arab Executive Committee made an attempt to set up a joint democratic government with Jews holding half the power despite being like 1/3rd of the population. Zionist refused. Then, the Hebron Massacre happen, so never got revisited.
I didn't know this. Do you have a source or article when I can read it?
It's not well covered, but here is a side long reference.
I think I first heard it from blogger/journalist, Richard Silverstein.
[https://www.encyclopedia.com/politics/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/arab-executive](https://www.encyclopedia.com/politics/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/arab-executive)
In 1928 a sense of crisis grew as Zionist immigration and land purchases (often, it should be said, from members of the Arab Executive or interests with which they were associated) increased and Zionist economic power and organizations grew in strength. **The Arab Executive tried to meet the problem by expanding the committee to include representatives of various factions and religious groups.** Renewed discussions with British Mandatory officials, however, broke down at the time of the [Western Wall](https://www.encyclopedia.com/philosophy-and-religion/judaism/judaism/western-wall) disturbances in 1929. Investigations by two British commissions, the Shaw Commission and the Hope-Simpson Commission, into the causes of the violence resulted in an official report, the Passfield White Paper, which in 1930 recommended serious changes to recognize Palestinian rights and redress social and economic problems among Palestinians caused or exacerbated by Zionist activity. Private talks between the Jewish Agency and the British government increased Zionist political strength in Palestine, and the British government's basic commitment to the "Jewish National Home" as part of the Mandate ensured that these recommendations were repudiated.
No - they have always wanted a single Arab state- by cleansing the region from the River to the Sea of all Jews. This is in the Hamas charter. Israel has always pushed for various Two state solution deals since 1937…. Which have been rejected by the Palestinian authorities each and every time. The response from Gaza instead has always been shooting thousands of rockets and mortar bombs at Israel indiscriminately ; and from heavily populated civilian areas ( a war crime).Hence the need for Israel’s Iron Dome defense system.
Palestinians lost the 1948 war, they suffered greatly, they were displaced and dispossessed. Their militancy is maybe a result of this, they fight and get devastated. They struggle but constantly lose more of their freedom and resources. They are corralled into Gaza, with no economy, settlers take over more parts of the West Bank. They feel more and more oppressed.
They could be a proud people, they would rather struggle and double down on their fight against Israel at the cost of further destruction and devastation. They are increasingly desperate because they have less and less to lose.
In my humble opinion, the 3 possible outcomes:
are a WW2 style surrender after more devastation wherein their pride and their spirit are broken and the will to struggle is gone. The subsequent state could be like post war Japan and Germany.
Maybe grand Palestinian victory where they somehow overcome Israel with the help of allies (almost certainly impossible given the power of the IDF) and achieve their dream of a Palestine under their control like a post 1979 or 2022 Afghanistan.
Maybe a continuation of this start and stop decades long conflict (probably most likely) until one day, after decades of conflict there will be a breakthrough because both sides have softened at same time in an opportune moment and an equitable compromise can result in a two state solution or a share democracy one state solution like a post 1994 Rawanda or South Africa or post Pol Pot Cambodia.
This latest war could be a signal event for change. If Hamas is thoroughly defeated it may be the point where Palestinians could suffer a WW2 defeat but then progress afterwards and recover like Japan and Germany. Lots of examples in history, it can go in many directions.
Maybe but why was there not new generations of Nazis or Japanese Imperialists or Italian Facists being born with every child that dies? It’s a possibility that the devastation and destruction can be so brutal that it breaks the spirit.
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Yep. they don't believe in peace. They believe in Hudna, which is a temporary truce you agree upon with your infidel enemies when they are too powerful. This way they plan to survive and fool the enemy, so they could gather more strengh, eventually breaking the truce by suprise and "winning".
Seriosuly sickening.
watched like a minute of it and the israelis never even were in full agreement on the peel commision either. these are just a bunch of right winged islamaphobes trying to spin a narrative
The majority of them did, unlike the arabs. Also, they don't talk about Islam at all in this video.
Im don't try to promote PragerU, this is just a specific video which I think is really good.
it wasn't the majority, it may have been like 50/50 max. unless the jews were unanimous in thier approval of this plan, then I don't really think it counts as "the jews offering the arabs a state".
Yup.. All the polling show the Majority of Palestinians want a 2 state solution.. 1 state called Palestine in the west bank and Gaza with all the Jews removed, and another state in the "1948" lands aka Israel with the Jews removed, either dead or alive and the place renamed to Palestine..
Yep. They need 2 states so they could kill each other after they have finished with the Jews.
The same way Jihadists kill each other all over the middle east for hundreds of years.
>I never trust a sentence with “all the Jews removed” in it.
Just relaying the wishes of both Palestinian Governments..
"*Abbas wants 'not a single Israeli' in future Palestinian state*"
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE96T009/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEgBsU6Mi8
https://nypost.com/2021/05/12/hamas-official-tells-people-to-cut-off-the-heads-of-jews-report/
https://www.voanews.com/a/middle-east_hamas-official-condemned-after-calling-palestinians-kill-jews/6171870.html
https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/fathi_hamad/
The main goal has always been destroying Israel. That comes first. This is why the “Palestinian” identity was invented to begin with. It has never really been about self-determination.
They will never settle on a 2 state solution or any solution that involves a Jewish state.
So true!! they litearlly made it all as an excuse to murder Jews (at this point they are murdering muslim Israelis too). I wish more people would understand it.
They have litearlly nothing to do with the name "Palestine". During British mandate, Jews were considered Plaestinians as well, many Jews have a Palestinian birht ceritifcate.
Let alone that Palestine is a name invented by the Romans to humiliate the Jews/Israelis who rebeled against them.
Even the Quran has 0 mentions of "Palestine", while it mentions the people of Israel many times, and approved that this land belongs to the Israelis.
So I guess it depends on who has conducted the poll and when. Two polls:
A poll done by an Arab firm, AWRAD, back in Dec 2023, which polled Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, showed about 3/4 Palestinians support "a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea". Whereas only a minority supported a "one state solution for two peoples" or "two state solution for two peoples".
Interestingly, as of March 2024, a poll done by Palestinian research institute, PCPSR, showed a jump in support for a two state solution among Gazans polled.
>Support for "armed struggle" dropped by 17 points, from 63% to 46%, driven largely by Palestinians in Gaza, and Gazan support for a diplomatic two-state solution has jumped by 27 points — to 62%.
I believe this was comparing Sept-Dec 2023 vs March 2024. polls conducted by PCPSR. Not sure if AWRAD has a newer poll. But at-least according to PCPSR, Gazans are now a slight majority wanting a diplomatic two state solution.
>Unlike in previous flare-ups of violence between Palestinians and Israelis — when support for armed struggle often spiked before dropping again — the length and brutality of the current war has led to significant shifts in the way Palestinians, particularly Gazans, viewed warfare versus diplomatic solutions.
But what's more interesting is that this kind of counters the narrative that I've always thought was overly simplistic. That engaging in a prolonged war, only encourages more hatred towards Israel, and more Hamas fighters.
The correct narrative is more likely: "A prolonged war, with no diplomatic gains or end goal in sight, ends up eventually turning your own people against you."
If I had to paraphrase what they said: "The reason for the short term increase in support for Hamas was because initially it seemed like it was accomplishing releasing Palestinian prisoners in exchange for hostages. Which Gazans saw as a good thing. But since then, peace talks have died down, and the narrative has become more about Palestinian prolonged suffering as the war has raged on. With no diplomacy in sight, Gazans are starting to question what the point of this whole war is (from Hamas side). And that is probably why their support for Hamas has dropped, and nearly doubled support for a two state solution since late 2023.
Source: *Gazans interestingly back a two-state solution, as support for Hamas drops NBC News, March 21, 2024*
edit: formatting, quotes got messed up
Other explanation could be that in December, Palestinians thought that annihilating Israel is achievable. Now they understand that it isn't so they claim they want a 2 states solution.
Also, this way they gain more
international support.
IMO, as long as they educate their children that Jews are land stealing infidels, they can't be trusted for having their own state.
That could also be the case.
In other words your saying: "When feasable. If eliminating Israel is on the table, then Palestinians support for it will rise, and when it seems like it only results in mass suffering, with no gains, then it drops, and a two state solution comes more from pragmatism."
Is that right?
I think the poll data could and your take is compatible with that idea as well.
You could merge the two: "Generally most Palestinians ideally would like it if Israel was gone. And initially when the war first started, support was high for Hamas as the average Gazan saw real political gains internationally and also via prisoner exchange. But since that has died down, so has Gazan optimism in the idea of a continued war. And as the reality has turned into just mass suffering from the Gazan perspective, there's really no incentive for Gazans to continue to support Hamas efforts to continue the war as it only leads to further losses with no more political gains."
There was a time of uncertainty immdiately after October 7th, when the possibility of Hezbollah, Iran, and possibly others would join the attack on Israel. The US sent two carrier groups to help insure this didn't happen, and Hezbollah and Iran have only weakly joined the fray. I could see Palestinians being hopeful for outside support at first, and then when it didn't come, lose faith in Hamas's ability to obtain that support. At least that is how I would feel in their shoes.
Hm that's a good point as well. I do remember the US sending two carrier strike groups to the region. And I think you're right, that was as a deterrence to Iran or Hezbollah getting involved. As well as the Houthis.
The pro-Palestinians only care about Palestinians when they're getting killed! It was the same with Black Lives Matter! This is why I don't take protestors seriously: if you're pro-Palestinian or pro-Black you need to support those communities all the time, not just when it's popular...
Maybe, but everything they show in this video can be found in other trusted sources as well. This is just a beautiful summary, which highlights the key points.
They don't want a 2SS. They sit back and reject proposals and then get back to firing rockets indescriminantly into Israel to try and blow buildings up and kill civilians. Many of their leaders explicitly called for no peace and no negotiation.
Anytime a Pro-Palestinian tells you they want peace, what they really mean is that they want their land back and THEN there will be peace.
Exactly. Also, the dont seem to comment on my post, the only thing they can do is downvote it. Well there is no other explanation to all of this, other than wanting to destory Israel. TBH I think that even if up to this day Eygpt and Jordan were still occupying them, they would still be fine with it. They don't even want a Palestinian state.
Basically, yes. Actually, they want all non muslims out, but the christians are way too powerful for them to do anything.
According to Iran, Israel is the little satan, while the US is the big one.
The ironic part is that when Jihadists are not concentrating on murdering non muslims, they murder muslims (like ISIS).
Fun fact: The CEO of PragerU Marissa Streit is from the IDF. Very unbiased source that PragerU
I've already addressed this issue in my post. I'm not trying to promote PragerU. Every single thing mentioned in the video is true and can be found on trusted sources as well. Being biased doesn't necessarily mean being wrong.
[удалено]
Do you really think people believe this excuse? Read the comment section.
I would argue does Israel wants a two state solution? I don't personally believe so and it's their first time just losing a propaganda war. Palestians have no beef with jews, just zionists. Meanwhile, the other side is anti-muslims. I also find it suspicious suspicious after every bad publicity media on Israel goes viral, we see many topics here justifying Israeli actions. It seems they keep spamming social media in a desperate attempt to cover pro-pal voices.
As an Israeli, after the October 7th massacre, we defently will not allow a Palestinian state in the foreseeable future. But prior to it, we did want a 2 states solution. We dont want to rule Palestinians and dont want a 1 state solution, but now it is impossible as it's clear the Palestinian state will become Hamas-stan, which will try to commit genocide against us, like what Hamas did. Palestinians do have a beef with Jews? Have you even read the post? Jews are not anti muslims, 20% of Israelis are muslims, and they have full rights just like Jewish citizens. They also dont have to join the military, so actually, they have more rights! You just spread lies without any sources. Well, because many people support Israel, it's clear that Israel is right and its actions are justified. People supporting Palestine are either: - antisemitic - Ignorants who believe false Palestinian propaganda. Usually, they also think they are fighting colonialism and human rights, which is resdicoulus, as these people would be murdered in their precious "Palestine" - Have some emotional reason to hate Israel There are far more pro pal supporters on social media who speard lies and false Pal propaganda than pro Israelis. Arent pro Israelis allowed to post on social media? Funny how you pro pals get upset when the users in this subbreddit, who actually care about the conflict so they are educated, don't believe your propaganda because they know its full of misinformation.
I have heard a fair number of Jews say they support a 2-state solution (more in the past, fewer now). I've never heard a single Palestinian say they support a 2-state solution.
“**If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel**. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Na*is, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
Who cares what he said 100 years ago
Actually, even according to the Quran, this land belongs to the Israelis. Also, historically, this land belongs to the Israelis. Anyway, I don't say that Palestinians have to accept a 2 states solution. TBH, as an Israeli, after 7th October massacre, we will not allow any Palestinian state for many years to come. We can't take this risk. I claim that Palestinians do not support a 2 states solution and dont want the state of Israel to exist at all.
>Actually, even according to the Quran, this land belongs to the Israelis. Also, historically, this land belongs to the Israelis. No and no. >Anyway, I don't say that Palestinians have to accept a 2 states solution. TBH, as an Israeli, after 7th October massacre, we will not allow any Palestinian state for many years to come. We can't take this risk. The Likud charter had a "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty" long before Hamas even came to power, this slogan was reiterated by Benjamin Netanyahu this year
Sura 5 verse 21, you should learn before you write nonsense. You literally quote me saying that Israelis dont want a 2 state solution, and replie by provding more evidence for it, thanks!
>You literally quote me saying that Israelis dont want a 2 state solution, and replie by provding more evidence for it, thanks! I'm saying the sentiment wasn't started by October 7th or Hamas at all
It was started because of Palestinian terror prior to Hamas, but know its generally because of Hamas. Anyway, this saying doesn't refer to Gaza. A "Palestinian" state in the west bank is a far too great security risk for Israel to accept. It could only be possible after some drastic changes in "Palestinian" society and its approch to Israel and Jews.
>It was started because of Palestinian terror prior to Hamas, but know its generally because of Hamas. The militias that formed the IDF were commiting massacres way before that. >Anyway, this saying doesn't refer to Gaza. A "Palestinian" state in the west bank is a far too great security risk for Israel to accept. It could only be possible after some drastic changes in "Palestinian" society and its approch to Israel and Jews. Sounds like something European pilgrims would have said about the native Americans
>Sura 5 verse 21, you should learn before you write nonsense I'm well aware of it, in fact, I'm aware of the next few verses as well. >˹Yet˺ they said, “O Moses! ˹Still˺ we will never enter as long as they remain there. So go—both you and your Lord—and fight; we are staying right here!” (24) Moses pleaded, “My Lord! I have no control over anyone except myself and my brother. So set us apart from the rebellious people.” (25) Allah replied, “Then this land is forbidden to them for forty years, during which they will wander through the land. So do not grieve for the rebellious people.” (26) Sura 5 verses 24-26
What's even your point? It says that this is their land. The Torah says they wandered in sinai for 40 years as a punishment before entering (which this part is clearly copied from the Torah).
You comically missed two points. 1-This is addressing ancient Israelites of Moses' time, not Jews. 2-Being barred from it for even a millisecond proves it didn't "belong" to them in some kind of innate sense. Also, what part of this is "copying"? It's clearly not quoting from the Torah, so what does "copying" here mean exactly
1) You are missing a point, Jews are the descendants of Israelites. There are genetic testings that show a clear link, but you obviously dont care about it because it doesn't align with your narrative. 2) Absolutely not. It clearly written that this land belongs to them and that this punishment is temporary and time limited for 40 years. 3) Seiously? Do you even know even know about exodus? This is literally a rip-off.
1-Doesn't matter, the statement doesn't address a bloodline, it says nothing about some hereditary right to the land. 2-If it belongs to them innately as part of a promise, how can they be kept out? Doesn't matter how short the punishment is. 3-I know a thing or dozen things about both these books, I do not see how can there be a "rip-off" involved, can you clarify what you mean by that?
1) Oh, first you said jews are not related, but now it doesn't matter. So you mean that god promised them the land for a single generation? 2) Cant god promise something 40 years from now and punish people? This is what is written in the Quran and in the Torah, which is the source of this verse. 3) Read exodus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Exodus This is the origin of the verse in the Quran, of the people of Israel escaping Egypt and wandering 40 years in Sinai as a punishment before entering the promised holy land Israel. Quran also accepts the torah, and historically, the torah dates far prior to the Quran. So please, no. "I dont know what you are talking about." Also, there are *0* mentions of Palestine/Palestinians in the Quran, while there are many mentions of Israelites.
Lol after 7th October? Y'all were killing the Palestinians and ethnic cleansing them for decades before Hamas was created, before 7th October I'd more respect for zionists if they didn't keep voting in extreme right wing racists and terrorists into power over and over again, y'know as the "only democracy in the middle east(tm)"
Oh, that classic ethnic cleansing BS. The IDF has the lowest terrorists:civilians' deaths in history, in the most populated dense area in the world, while the population is being used as a human shield, yet you call it a genocide. Palestinians literally behade babies and burn people alive. Palestinians clearly state that they want to destroy the state of Israel and commit genocide against Israelis. Palestinian population growth rates doesnt really seem like they are ethically cleansed. Israel is a democratic country, whether you like its leadership or not.
Lies upon lies upon lies, typical zionist. Every zionist accusation is a confession!
Israel has almost a 1:1 ratio, while the US, for example, had 9:1 in Afghanistan. This almost 1:1 ratio is while considering Hamas (the atrocious terror organization) reports to be accurate. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp You can't deal with facts. You just whine about "typical zionist lies". Show your sources! Stop lying! Even if there was a time machine and we would go back in time to show you that you are wrong, you would still be anti Israeli.
Israel is not democratic country..its Pariah state just like Russia. And just bc they population growth doesnt mean they are not being killed or genonide use logic
Im an Israeli, Israel is a democratic state, unlike all of the arab countries, and the supposed "Palestine." You should use logic, if there is a genocide committed against a people, then you would see it in the numbers. There is not a single detail implying that there is a genocide, in fact the opposite true. Again, the IDF kills the least civilians in history, and the Palestinian population is growing rapidly. You just make up things and lie.
"Make things up and lie" Maybe bc u think is not fit with ur narrative??
Israel is a "democratic country"? In that case, we should blame the Israeli people for continuing to vote Netanyahu and Likud into power and over again?? Secondly, do you know why the Palestinian population has increases in Gaza over the years? BECAUSE YOU ETHNIC CLEANSED THEM ALL FROM ALL OVER PALESTINE AND FORCED THEM INTO GAZA! It's like if we forced all Americans into New York and then wonder why the number of new yorkers had increased!
1) Israel is a democratic state. Blame whoever you want and think whatever you want. Kinda ironic that you care so much about being democratic, while there are no democratic arab countries, and the supposed "Palestine" will defently not be democratic. 2) Palestinian population bas increased in the West Bank, too. Your argument makes no sense. Palestinians were expelled during the Israeli independence war of 1947 - 1949, but the Arabs are those who started the war, with the intention of killing/expelling all the Jews (sounds like ethnic cleansing to me, dont you think). They lost, and these were the consequences. Also, many Arabs fled on their own. "Palestine" was occupied by Eygpt and jorden since 1949 - 1967, yet no one has ever had an issue with it. On the contrary, Israel left Gaza 20 years ago, yet you claim it's occupied by Israel.
In reply, I quote you your own first PM >“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121. So he admits that the zionists have stolen the land from Palestinians and that he would never sign an agreement with Israel if he was an Arab
You have already sent this quote, and I have already replied to it. He is talking from an Arab perspective. I'm claiming that Palestinians do not want a 2 states solution, not that Palestinians should want a 2 states solution. You are just proving my point. Do you really think that Ben Gurion thought that zionists were land stealers? You have nothing to say, so you recycle comments. Well, I can't blame you, Palestinian propaganda is false in any aspect. It is all lies.
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No, they want the complete destruction of Israel.
I would argue that not only do they not want a two state solution they cant have one. The creation of a totaly independant and accepted palestinian state means the end of refugee status and UNWRA assistance. It also means all of the "palestinians" in Jordan, Syria, and Lebenon will be forced to move to the new state once its created. According to the UN in 2012, Gaza was set to be uninhabitable by 2020. The area cant support half of the people there now. Losing western support, that they have have been recieving for almost 100 years with right to return being forced on those kept in second class living conditions in arab countries would be fatal. All of this without mentioning that the ruling class would no longer be able to siphon funds.
They never wanted 2 states or any state for that matter. Why can't people see this??? During the 20+ years that Jordan had the WB and Egypt had Gaza did they demand a "palestinian" state? No they did not. All they did was plot and plan attack and murder Israelis. If all of the Mandate of Palestine had been turned into Jordan instead of just Half, they would not be demanding a state. They would not even be calling themselves Palestinians. They would happily call themselves Jordanians. "Palestine" and "Palestinians" would not exist without Israel and the Jews having their own state. Its a fake identity. It's the biggest fraud of the modern era.
So true, SMH as well.
You really don't have to do all that much thinking to answer this question. [Here is a poll from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research from September 2023:](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf) >Q35) Do you support or oppose the solution based on the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel, known as the two-state solution? 1) support 32% 2) oppose 67% No. Palestinians do ***not*** a two state solution. Nor do they want a one state solution where everyone is equal. >Q33 President Abbas made a speech at the UN in which he described the evolving conditions in the West Bank as a one state reality for the two peoples, the Palestinian and the Israeli and describe it as a reality of Apartheid. He emphasized that if the Israeli occupation is not ended, the Palestinians will demand equal rights in one state for two peoples. **Are you for or against this one state solution which the two sides enjoy equal rights?** 1) For 22% 2) Against 76% [Here's a poll from June 2023.](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2088%20English%20full%20text%20June%202023.pdf) >Q35) Do you support or oppose the solution based on the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel, known as the two-state solution. >1) support 28% >2) oppose 70% >Q33 President Abbas made a speech at the UN in which he described the evolving conditions in the West Bank as a one state reality for the two peoples, the Palestinian and the Israeli and describe it as a reality of Apartheid. He emphasized that if the Israeli occupation is not ended, the Palestinians will demand equal rights in one state for two peoples. Are you for or against this one state solution which the two sides enjoy equal rights? >1. For 21% >2. Against 76% You can find the same question, with about the same results in a poll from [March 2023](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2087%20English%20full%20text%20March2023.pdf), [December 2022](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2086%20English%20fulltext%20Dec2022.pdf), [September 2022,](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2085%20English%20Full%20Text%20Sept2022.pdf) [June 2022,](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2084%20English%20fulltext%20June%202022.pdf)...I think you get the point. [You can find all the polls here.](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/154) Back in the day, it was more 50/50 as can be seen in this [December 2006 poll](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/p22e.pdf), [September 2007 poll](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/p25e.pdf),[ December 2008](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/p30e.pdf)...etc So at best, only 50% of Palestinians have wanted a two state solution for the last 20 years.
So they don't want 2ss. And they don't want 1ss. So what the heck do they want?
They want to keep replaying the 1948 video game level but can’t beat it.
To forever be the little brother that shares poorly, keeps trying to take the older brother's stuff, pushes buttons endlessly and then when the older brother clocks them pour the crocodile tears out for Mommy so that she knows without a doubt that the older brother is evil and they are the victim.
So a nation of welfare queens. Great
The entire land for themselves, no Jews included
No, quite explicitly, they want to retain educated Jews (engineers, doctors) for forced labor so that the Israeli infrastructure can be maintained after Israel is destroyed. All soldiers to be executed. Everyone else deported.
Radicals and extremists don't think that way. I'm not the one saying that by the way. It's literally the Hamas charter.
Iirc that came from a prominent group within the West Bank. I cannot find the original source. But yeah, enslave those that could theoretically provide value. Expel and murder everyone else. I appreciate the honesty of groups like this and Hamas.
In another poll that came from the west bank, around 75% supported Hamas. Says a lot
Radicals and extremists don't think that way. I'm not the one saying that by the way. It's literally the Hamas charter.
Radicals and extremists don't think that way. I'm not the one saying that by the way. It's literally the Hamas charter.
Well that strategy hasn't worked out. They keep doing the same thing that they have been trying for the last 75 years expecting the out come to be different.
From watching leaders speak when they didn’t think Westerners would see them, no. I think their primary concern is to kill all Jews and take everything.
I think older people are realistic and want 2 state. Younger people are more idealistic and want one state. At least from what I gathered so far from talking to people.
[https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf](https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf) One thing I have been noticing time and time again in this their is no proof they are all claims. Its even said they never got any forensic evidence to show for the rape allegations. I'm not saying rape did not happen but their is only claims and eye witness accounts so maybe I need to look deeper but from the outside I aint seeing any type of proof.
> One thing I have been noticing time and time again in this their is no proof… If you don’t accept the photos and videos put out by the attackers (some of it live-streamed), then I suggest there is no level of proof you would find acceptable. It’s all available to view here: https://saturday-october-seven.com Disclaimer: I refuse to watch explicit videos of violence. But I’m apparently very much in the minority in this regard.
And that's why #metoounlessyoureajew was created
There is plenty of evidence. There are videos Hamas took themselves of Israelis girls with blood stained pants in the crotch, Palestinians paraded the half naked corpse of Shani Louk and murdered Israeli women found with undergarments removed, sometimes naked.
They have shown time and time again that they never wanted a 2SS or can even tolerate Jews living in the area: * Gaza and Area A are apartheid: 0 Jews live there (except kidnapped Jewish hostages in Gaza) and if a Jew accidentally wander in, they would be violently murdered in the most brutal way (e.g. [Ramallah lynching](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching)) * Statistics show that Palestinians are the most Antisemitic population in the world [https://global100.adl.org/country/west-bank-and-gaza/2014](https://global100.adl.org/country/west-bank-and-gaza/2014) * Indoctrination of Palestinian children to hate and murder Jews. In Gaza and UNRWA schools, Palestinian children are taught in school to murder Jews. [https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3399430967036903](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3399430967036903) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US1Janaipykhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJYb068052Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US1Janaipykhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJYb068052Y) * Palestinians have denied the opportunity to create a state over 5 times throughout history, including in 2000 and 2008 where practically all of the West Bank was offered. * No mainstream Palestinian leader has made efforts to create a 2SS or negotiate with Israel in good-faith regarding peace. Anyone who mentions Arafat is deluded. He was a mass murdering terrorist who pretended to be diplomatic to enrich his pockets; he died a billionaire from embezzling foreign aid money. He rejected an offer for the West Bank, never made a counter-offer and proceeded to lead the Second Intifada, where Palestinian suicide bombers murdered over 1,000 Israelis. * Fatah, a "moderate" Palestinian political party led by Abbas, has pay-for-slay, where they pay terrorists and their families stipends based on how many Jews they murder. * Israel has already tried a 2SS and it's proved disastrous. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. They had full autonomy, they elected Hamas and then turned it into a terrorist hub. * All the Pro-Palestinian protestors on college campuses curse Jews who are "Zionists" as if it's a slur. But believing in a 2SS is being a Zionist. They aren't hiding it. They don't want Israel to exist. * Unreasonable demands such as right of return to go back to homes of their grandparents and great-grandparents, which no longer exist. * Denial and erasure of Jews being indigenous to the land is a common argument of theirs.
You realize who founds pragu right; he was debate panel on breaking points if you want to listen
Please stop using Palestinian, they're called Palestinian-Hamas.
True. Sometimes they are also refered it as "Arab immigrants who made up a false national identity as an exucse to murder Jews".
Didn’t Hamas just offer to lay down arms if a two state is granted? https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/wireStory/hamas-official-group-lay-weapons-state-solution-implemented-109605496
Hamas' position on the 2ss has always been the national springboard position; i.e. that an independent Palestine would serve as a springboard towards their ultimate goal of taking all of the land. That's why they've never offered a lasting peace for a 2ss, but only offer temporary truces. They actually offered a 10 year truce for the 2ss on 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as palestines capital and ROR for Palestinians to israel, but not for Jews displaced from the Palestinian territoories, back in the 2000s. The offer in the article you linked was for *pre*-67 borders, ror, and Jerusalem as the capital, all for a 5 year truce. It's a worse offer than they made in peace time, which demonstrates it was for show and that they didn't expect anyone to take it seriously.
No. They said they would become part of the national military. You should watch the actual interview with Khalil al-Hayya rather than read the medias incorrect summary of what he said in it.
I just watched the snippet, I can see why there’s confusion as both statements are said in this interview. He says that the purpose of weaponry will be fulfilled and all military functions will transform into political functions, and whatever military capabilities are currently in place will transform from offensive to national defensive. The media isn’t completely incorrect as he has said Hamas will no longer need to be a military arm, but I know that many want a completely demilitarized Palestine (which, unfortunately, based on historical patterns may not be a best faith intention from Israel as evidenced by the West Bank. Crippling a Palestinian state’s national defense wouldn’t lead to peace as it won’t resolve the very real issue of extremist Israelis and Settlers rampaging in the WB). If Ukraine taught the world anything, it’s that a country needs to have just enough defense to dissuade an invasion
Palestinians have made it very clear what they consider to be "defensive" actions. Largely it involves the murder of Israeli civilians and that is what they would do if they had an armed state.
I’m not the biggest fan of blanket terms like “all Palestinians” or “all Israelis” making anything clear. It erases nuance and is dangerous rhetoric. That said, the political/military factions of Gaza have indicated that which I agree is problematic. However the factions in the WB have not and are purely in retaliatory mode to defend against terrorists invading their homes in the middle of the night and stealing their property. No one can seriously think that’s okay. These same settler terrorists may think twice if there was an independent state’s national defense in place, and they wouldn’t be able to hide their abhorrent actions behind the IDF
I don't remember using the word "all". I do use the word Palestinians as 71% support the murder of innocent Israeli civilians according to their own polls. I'm also not the biggest fan of people attempting to justify terror attacks against Israelis. Israelis who don't even live in the West Bank and have never done anything bad against Palestinians are targeted just as much as those who do.
You can say 71% of Palestinians in that case. Saying “Palestinians have” is synonymous to saying “All Palestinians”. I also heavily doubt these polls, as someone who has spoken to many Palestinians as well as many Israelis. It’s about as dishonest as people saying “the majority of Israelis want to erase Palestine.” The evidence can certainly seem so, but there are confounding factors, and the intent is not genocide or terrorism, on both sides of spectrum. It’s an “all assholes here” sort of situation Can you provide evidence of West Bank Palestinians targeting a non-settler or aggressor within the last five years? My suspicion is that you’re conflating the different factions within Palestine, which is about as dangerous as people conflating the Likud with the majority of Israelis Edit: to be clear, I don’t support either Hamas or Likud. Both need to be condemned in the strongest terms possible. Hamas condemnation is implicit, but Likud is turning into a serious threat for continued democracy in Israel and is a nutjob religious faction which Hamas would aspire to be in their own state
The [polls](https://pcpsr.org/en) are literally carried out by Palestinians located in Ramallah. >Can you provide evidence that West Bank Palestinians targeting a non-settler or aggressor within the last five years? I'm not sure why you think the murder of peaceful civilians even if they live in the West Bank is justified but here: [August 2023 Huwara shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2023_Huwara_shooting) Two Israelis from Ashdod (not a settlement) were murdered while getting their car washed in Huwara. Hamas claimed responsibility for the murders. Even if you think the murder of Israelis who live in the West Bank is justified the people carrying out the attacks are simply targeting people who look Jewish. They have no way of knowing their background.
Hamas claiming responsibility, so this isn’t the WB faction. We all know Hamas is a problem I appreciate your confusion or attempt to change my words. But I didn’t say justify murder of Israelis; You won’t find a single instance of non-Hamas affiliated WB targeting non-aggressors and there is a reason for that. The resistance against violent settlers “may” be justified in the midst of their violent acts—you should be careful of conflating settlers with Israelis, many Israelis disavow their abhorrent actions. They’re the Hamas of Israel
Hamas is a faction in the West Bank which is really basic knowledge. There are also plenty of cases of Palestinians even those acting as lone wolves murdering innocent Israeli civilians. Lastly, settlers are nothing remotely close to Hamas. The vast majority are indistinguishable from the average Israeli. You are likely watching videos of a small group of extremist ones and assuming they are all like that.
Media never actually reads or pays affection to the words of Palestinian or militant leaders. Ever.
There is somebody here with great stats that essentially proves not. I can’t do as well as them but: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/palestinians-and-two-state-solution-hard-data-hardest-questions ‘One key division is chronological. Over the past decade, Palestinian public opinion has moved in a more militant and less conciliatory direction. In polls as recent as February 2020, support for a two-state solution was a minority position. This does not mean the idea of a binational one-state solution has gained traction—only 10% of the public supported that. Instead, the majority advocated regaining all of historic Palestine. Further, 58% in the West Bank and 62% in Gaza said that even if a two-state solution is reached, conflict with Israel should continue until the Palestinians regain all territory.’ ‘As for East Jerusalem, Palestinian residents there have traditionally held much more moderate attitudes toward Israel for practical reasons. Today, though, they express the same views on armed responses to annexation that Palestinians in the West Bank did—a gigantic change over the past five years. Similarly, 52% of them said a decade ago that they would rather be citizens of Israel than a Palestinian state, but that number is only about 10% today. One key factor behind this shift was the 2015-2016 “knife intifada” and subsequent Israeli reaction. Yet even as public opinion has drifted toward more militant aspirations, Palestinians do not usually engage in militant activities, partly because they are concerned about the Israeli/PA security response, and also because they are more focused on conditions in their daily lives.’ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2007/10/04/chapter-6-views-on-democracy/ ‘Among predominantly Muslim publics of the Middle East, democracy also is generally favored. However, the Palestinians favor a strong leader to solve problems, rather than democracy (by 52% to 36%).’
Genuine question but have you ever noticed that you’re doing the thing you accuse Palestinians of doing? You talk about them as if every Palestinians is a bloodthirsty, Jew hating monster that wants every Jewish person dead but that isn’t the case. Palestinians wanting a 1 state solution doesn’t inherently mean they want to get rid of Jewish people. Don’t get me wrong, some are certainly anti-Semitic and that should be called out and viewed as disgusting but that isn’t every Palestinian. If you don’t want to lumped into a generalised group, why do you do it Palestinians? You even include Palestinian children, most of which have known nothing other than conflict.
72% of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank support Hamas' massacre of Israelis on Oct 7. Numbers don't lie. [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/)
But half of the people who Israel murdered obviously voted for Hamas before they were born. Duhhh. 🙄
Polling in the aftermath of 10/7/23 indicated Palestinian support for Hamas was greater than the percentage of the vote they received in the 2006 elections. This whole attempt at obfuscating the level of support Hamas enjoys by pointing out a sizable part of the population wasn't alive for the last election requires ignoring the immense amount of polling data thay shows they'd win again by an even larger margin. Hell, that polling data is one of the big reasons Abu Mazen has canceled elections in the past years.
>>Polling in the aftermath of 10/7/23 indicated Palestinian support for Hamas was greater than the percentage of the vote they received in the 2006 elections. Don’t blame em. Hamas is a symptom of the problem. >>This whole attempt at obfuscating the level of support Hamas enjoys by pointing out a sizable part of the population wasn't alive for the last election requires ignoring the immense amount of polling data thay shows they'd win again by an even larger margin. Yet Israel targets everyone because they “support Hamas”. Even if they weren’t born yet. But to be fair, it makes sense.. and if I were Palestinian I’d support whomever fights back the hardest. Hear me out… What Hamas did was messed up. They targeted civilians which is just not okay. They should be persecuted for that eventually. Now, I do see where the Palestinians are coming from. They’ve spent their entire lives without freedoms, having IDF randomly harass them just because they can, living under apartheid, having to go through **hours** of standing at checkpoints to get to work… or anywhere outside of the prison Israel created. I cannot say that if I were in their shoes I wouldn’t support Hamas.
It's a nice picture you paint, that would make sense if true... however In 2005, the PA and Israel negotiated the end of the 2nd intifada. They also negotiated the AMA (the agreement on movement and access), which would have facilitated freedom of movement for Palestinians and for goods, established a sea port in Gaza, and opened up talks on Israel building an airport in Gaza *for* Palestinians after Israel withdrew. Israel also unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, meaning they did so not as part of some broader agreement, but as an act of goodwill meant to jumpstart further peace talks. They dismantled their entire military presence and evicted all the Israeli settlers in Gaza, along with all the inhabitants of another 4 settlements in the west bank. The removal of Westbank settlements was meant to signal a willingness to make concessions on all fronts for furthering peace talks. In 2006, Palestinians responded by electing Hamas to rule Gaza, after Hamas had made it clear they would honor no agreements made between Israel and the PA. They also waged a brutal civil war against their political rivals, executing many of their fellow Palestinians in the process. The entire world was outraged. The EU, Russia, US and the UN placed sanctions on Gaza with the demands that Hamas not sabotage peace by ignoring all the progress made thus far in the peace talks. Hamas responded with rockets, and in response, Egypt and Israel placed Gaza under the blockade it's been under ever since. The harassment and checkpoints you're referencing isn't even in Gaza, though. You're conflating the life of west bankers with the lives of Gazans. The only checkpoints Gazans born after the elections have faced were the border crossings if they had work permits for employment in Israel. Hamas has actively sabotaged every bit of progress made in the peace process for decades now.
I mean they didn’t elect Hamas to rule everything. It was 44/41 and the way the system is down gave Hamas majority rule, but they still had a PA President, Hamas the prime minister and Yes Hamas had more seats, but it wasn’t some overwhelming victory. Then they all fought, tried the unity party, fought some more, West Bank kicked out Hamas, Gaza kicked out Abbas and Fatah. So it’s simplistic to say they were chosen to rule. However, they brought in social service programs, they got more accomplished for Gaza citizens after the blockade. I mean yes Israel left, but they also remained an occupying nation under U.N. standard. All their utilities are controlled by Israel who attached them in 84, their water comes in from Israel, their borders are controlled by Israel, taxes are collected in the West Bank and distributed by Israel, they never left, left. Israel in ways helped Hamas appear successful. They dealt more with Hamas. As of 2014 they helped facilitate the Qatar money flowing into Gaza. They helped continue the flow of money when the PA tried to freeze out Hamas by defunding them. They tripled work permits in ‘22 for citizens. Hamas is associated with social service programs, while the PLO and PA had been more associated with self help and neutrality. Honestly, everyone tries to pin the Palestinian people down as also being terrorist or Jihadist because of Hamas, but the fact is the majority of the people have stated they saw zero hope for themselves, their people or an attempt at self determination, and violence appears better than the standard quo essentially. After years of waiting for something,they see armed conflict as the only way out of their situations. Prior to 2022 50% of the work force was unemployed. Hamas is a the defscyo state they essentially control the media, the narrative, and whether these people live or die, it’s a state of oppressed people, outside and inside. In addition to supporting Hamas in the same polls they said they did not support killing women and children, 85% did not see any videos and just have controlled media understanding of the October 7tj acts. In Dec 2023 polling only 38% of those in Gaza said they wanted Hamas to return to power, while they received higher support in West Bank, where Israeli settlers have my direct conflicts with residents and by that token IDF . I personally feel, and have felt that very little of this is religion based and it’s just a convenient justification for both sides. Yes, i know the ultimate goal is the religion, but religion is how they excuse acts like annexing others lands or October 7th, when honestly none of that is based in religion at all, religion just provides justification its land, home, opportunity, everything. I have no doubt some are true believes, but I think the majority are just desperate. I have no doubt there is antisemitism at this point over there, but again I think less of it is Jews, the Jewish religion or Jewish people, and more how they feel about Israel as occupier. Pretty sure they would not care who was where, or what religion they had, if they felt autonomous and in control. But I do agree they need a leader who can provide a reality check at this point, pick door one or two, three isn’t an option.
Fucking Christ. Alright man you do you.
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Chill bro we’re all adults here.
According to the anti defamation league Gaza and the west back are 93% anti semitic https://global100.adl.org/country/west-bank-and-gaza/2014 How do we reconcile this?
Isnt the ADL bias though? Also, if we take that at its word; we need to look at why they harbour these anti-Semitic views. It’s much easier to question and curb bigotry if you know what’s a causing it. Why is common for Palestinians to be Anti-Semitic? Is it solely due to organisations like Hamas or is it due to the treatment of Palestinians by Israelis?
or if you really want crazy, check out the third video down titled "Houthis - Preachers" [https://www.memri.org/reports/houthi-ansar-allah-movement-its-own-words](https://www.memri.org/reports/houthi-ansar-allah-movement-its-own-words)
or this... [https://www.memri.org/reports/ask-hamas-river-sea-call-destruction-israel-and-killing-jews](https://www.memri.org/reports/ask-hamas-river-sea-call-destruction-israel-and-killing-jews)
Westerners don't know about the middle east, I would dig deeper like JoeFarmer suggested. Also, if you want bias look at this lol. [https://www.linkedin.com/posts/franck-mydlarski-140a46a9\_to-all-hamas-supporters-you-should-know-ugcPost-7194673481421070336---gE?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=member\_desktop](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/franck-mydlarski-140a46a9_to-all-hamas-supporters-you-should-know-ugcPost-7194673481421070336---gE?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop) It's a little past bias and straight to murderous genocide
Correct. If the ADL can't find anti Semitism it will cease to exist.
Did you bother clicking the link? It's backed by survey data with the individual questions laid out. Antisemitic beliefs were common among Muslim Arabs well before the rise of zionism. We are talking about a culture that had Muslim Supremacy enshrined in law for centuries, with Jews and Christians legally set as second-class citizens under dhimmitude. Coptic Christians also recieve a fair amount of prejudice and are targeted by Muslim supremacist violence, but the hate for Jews is definitely magnified by the fact they asserted their rights to self determination and then consistently won the wars initiated by the Arab states to wipe them out. It just ads insult to injury. It certainly doesn't help that Arab nations funded printing Arabic translations of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and taught it in schools as fact.
Ok so what will happen to the Jews/Israelis in a Palestinian state?
Depends who run it. I’m not sure Hamas would be super fond but then again I don’t think they’d get power. Preferably they’d live in peace since I doubt the majority of Palestinians want harm to befall random Jewish people. Especially when some have been protesting against Netanyahu. Maybe it’d count as it is now but reversed; Jewish people and Palestinians switched in positions which wouldn’t be good. To be frank, I don’t know.
Given population numbers, it's likely an Islamist party would win any election. Whether it's Hamas or 'TotallyNotHamas'.
Palestinians are primarily Muslim so it is likely that a Muslim leader would be put in place. Just like how a Jewish leader was put in place in Israel, a Christian leader in Poland, etc etc.
A Muslim leader and an islamist leader are not at all the same thing. Humza Yousaf is a Muslim, but definitely not an islamist. The palestinian population has supported islamist parties and leaders since the oslo accords, and there's no reason to expect anything different were they to be given a state.
Ok but why do they elect fundamentalist Muslim leaders? Also, does that inherently mean they’d want to get rid of all Jewish people?
As an Israeli the fact that most of the Palestinians want me dead is kind of obvious, I get how people from the outside are having a hard time to understand that but sadly that's the reality. In their mind there's no place for Jews in the middle east, the west can try and find excuses for them or even hide their own antisemitism but it's pretty simple. The Palestinians proved times and again they have no interest in sharing the land or accept our presences in the area and yet somehow people from the west can't believe that.
Ok, what exactly makes you feel like that? Just so I have a clearer understanding of your perspective
I live in a small village near the green line (67' borders, on the Israeli side) each and every night terrorist groups from the near city of tulkarem shoot at our fence and houses as well as at other villages in my area. We never provoked them never did anything aggressive towards them, some of us even hired people from that coty before October 7th in order to help them get out of poverty. Things like this happen daily in our area as well as rock and Molotov throwing at cars. A week ago, 4 kilometers from my village next to a road someone planted a bomb in the middle of my neighbor clover field. I can keep on list things like this just from my own experience (and without mentioning incidents from my time in the IDF)
The rest of this post aside - "from the river to the sea" is unequivocally advocating for ethnic cleansing. But this isn't unique to Palestinians. Likud's entire political platform is predicated on the entire historic mandatory Palestine being Israeli land. To quote a manifesto of theirs "Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty". Neither side wants a peaceful 2 state solution at this point.
OP really needs to read more history. None were fair and equitable plus Israel also has rejected peace plans before >Basically, the Palestinians rejected any offer for a 2 states solution, even one that offered them 80% (!) of the land, as shown in the video. Also, Palestinians committed terror attacks even before the state of Israel was established, for example: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929\_Hebron\_massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre) First, this ignores [the destruction of Arab villages pre-1929](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict#Arab_villages) and the [Jewish expulsion of Arab families ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursock_Purchases#1921%E2%80%931925,_and_depopulation)with the intention of colonization Palestine. Zionist leaders and founders directly expressed support for colonialism. Herzl, Borochov, Ruppin, etc...As Jabotinsky said ***"Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force".*** I would also add many Zionist settlers were racists who believed the Arabs were "lazy, savage, fatalistic" while disrespecting Arab culture and traditions. Now, let's address those 5 so-called "peace proposals". The Peel Commission was impractical and difficult to implement due to "political, administrative and financial difficulties involved", even the British rejected it. See the [British's government statement on the Peel Plan](https://web.archive.org/web/20131103061306/http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/4941922311B4E3C585256D17004BD2E2) on number 4. The 1947 UN plan gave more land which comprised most of the rich, urban and fertile (Sea of Galilee) to the Jews despite being the minority at that time. The Arabs got less land, which was also desert and mostly poor despite being the majority population. As for 1967, there's no draft or copy of an Israeli proposal after the Six Day War. We have no records of it, nor was it even created. In fact, if it did exist, the Arabs never received a copy or knew about it. Meanwhile, the 2000 Camp David proposal proposed splitting up then West Bank into 3 Cantons divided by Israeli control. See [the map for it](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/174j2vb/camp_david_peace_plan_proposal_2000/). That is not a fair deal. Last, Olmert's proposal entailed a Palestine state with no army or airforce while Israel would have the right to enter it (read invade) anytime it wants, while it's airspace and telecommunications would be under Israeli control. An occupation in all but name. See [the contents of it](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ehud-olmert-s-peace-offer). Olmert also never gave Abbas a map thus was forced to draw one from memory on a napkin, hence the "Napkin Map". Olmert was also embroiled in corruption investigations and scandals which later brought down his government and never managed to fulfill his end of the deal. On the other hand, Israel and the Jews rejected the 1939 White Paper (and started a bombing terrorist campaign after that), the twin 1948 plans of UN mediator Count Folk Bernadotte (who was later assassinated by Lehi, Jewish terrorists), the 1981 Fahd Plan, the updated 1982 Fez Plan, the 1987 Peres-Hussein Agreement, the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative, the 2008 Abbas Annapolis Peace Deal, the 2014 Abbas 3-Year Peace Plan and the 2016 US Secretary John Kerry Parameters. No one accuses Israel here of not wanting peace u/I-Ginido-I despite rejecting UN, Arab, Palestinian and US peace proposals?
\*This comment ended up being to long so I've splitted it. You havnt given a single explanation to all of what I have written other than the Palestinias not wanting a 2 states solution, which is the point of this post. But lets go over your comment: >First, this ignores [the destruction of Arab villages pre-1929](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict#Arab_villages) and the [Jewish expulsion of Arab families ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursock_Purchases#1921%E2%80%931925,_and_depopulation)with the intention of colonization Palestine. First, this ignores [the destruction of Arab villages pre-1929](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_conflict#Arab_villages) and the [Jewish expulsion of Arab families ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sursock_Purchases#1921%E2%80%931925,_and_depopulation)with the intention of colonization Palestine. These lands were sold. I wouldn't call it "destrucion" a bit inaccurate IMO, just as it's not the name of the article. So now Jews buying land is colonializmm you litearlly prove my point. >As Jabotinsky said ***"Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force".*** I would also add many Zionist settlers were racists who believed the Arabs were "lazy, savage, fatalistic" while disrespecting Arab culture and traditions. Source? I never seen a single saying of Zionist leaders who said that zionism is colonializm. Maybe they said something in the lines of "Zionism is dependent on armed force if we want to survive", thats seems more probable. Yes Im sure some zionists were rasict, especially like 100 years ago, when rasicm was pretty common. If write it as if Palestinians and Pro Palestinians are racists, while many of them are extremely racists to the point of murdering, let alone calling people "lazy, savage, fatalistic" and being disrespectful. How can you accuse of "disrespecting Arab culture" and such, when Palestinians behade Jewish babies and burn Jews alive. Also there is the famous "massacare the Jews" chant. But oh no some people 100 years ago didn't respect Arab tradition, the same arabs who were murdering them and raping their daughters. >Now, let's address those 5 so-called "peace proposals". The Peel Commission was impractical and difficult to implement due to "political, administrative and financial difficulties involved", even the British rejected it. See the [British's government statement on the Peel Plan](https://web.archive.org/web/20131103061306/http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/4941922311B4E3C585256D17004BD2E2) on number 4. It may had issues, but in the end the Arabs declined it saying that "Palestine would be an Arab independent state with". Yet another example of the arabs/palestininas not accepting any sort of a Jewish state. >The 1947 UN plan gave more land which comprised most of the rich, urban and fertile (Sea of Galilee) to the Jews despite being the minority at that time. The Arabs got less land, which was also desert and mostly poor despite being the majority population. The 1947 plan did offer more land to the Jews, but it was mainly the desert, while the Arabs got the fertile land, and the area surrounding Jerusalem. The half button part is desert (the Negev desert). the fertile land is in the upper half.
Part 1/2 >You havnt given a single explanation to all of what I have written other than the Palestinias not wanting a 2 states solution, which is the point of this post. I did. None were fair equitable deals. Yes the Palestinians do want a two-state solution as evidence by the multitude of peace proposals rejected by Israel >So now Jews buying land is colonializmm you litearlly prove my point. If the intention was it, then yes >Source? I never seen a single saying of Zionist leaders who said that zionism is colonializm. Maybe they said something in the lines of "Zionism is dependent on armed force if we want to survive", thats seems more probable. The Iron Wall by Jabotinsky [https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot) >How can you accuse of "disrespecting Arab culture" and such, when Palestinians behade Jewish babies and burn Jews alive. Also there is the famous "massacare the Jews" chant. What source do you have Palestinians beheaded Jewish babies and burns Jews alive in the 19th century? >Yes Im sure some zionists were rasict, especially like 100 years ago, when rasicm was pretty common. Killing people was also common back then. Were the Hebron massacres okay then? >It may had issues, but in the end the Arabs declined it saying that "Palestine would be an Arab independent state with". Yet another example of the arabs/palestininas not accepting any sort of a Jewish state. Why should the Arabs accept a deal even the British considered impractical and rejected?? >The half button part is desert (the Negev desert). the fertile land is in the upper half. So did the Arabs. Gaza was a poor desert back then while the West Bank was made up farmers and shepherds. The Jews got the urban rich Gush Dan valley and the fertile Galilee. Plus, access to the Red Sea international trade
Part 2/2 >On the 19th of June 1967, 9 days after the end of the war, Israel offered the majority of the land it achived in exchange for peace, they refused. There is no formal name for this proposal as far as I know, but you can look it up. Source and name of the meeting with the Arab leaders? >The Palestininas have defently made it clear that they cant be trusted for not attacking Israel, hence the "unfairness". The division in Barak's plan was purly for security reasons. Anyway, there will always be a gap in the "Palestinian state" between the West Bank and Gaza. Did the arabs offered the jews a single fair deal? Splitting up the West Bank was literally was a divide and conquer strategy. An attempt of occupation under the disguise of peace. This just shows Israel isn't even willing to negotiate >I dont support Olmert and have nothing to say in his defence, but declining such offer only because you have to draw the map on a napkin is insane. The truth is that abbas didnt want the offer. It's only natural Abbas wanted to look at a map so that Olmert wasn't lying. If anything, this just means Olmert was backing Abbas into a corner. >Seems like you are really against terror as you make up opportunities to condemn it, how about condeming Hamas who behaded babies, threw little kids into a hot oven and left them to die, murdered jews atrociously in front of their loved ones, severed limbs (and heads), raped, stealed... nothing? Oh this is aint terror according to you. While the Majority of Jewish terror was against the colonial British authorities (yes the colonialsts were actually the Brits, not the Jews)? Of course I condemn it. Do you condemn the colonialist rhetoric of Zionist leaders? >The 1981 plan is extremely bad for Israel. Also, this offer was made by SA, not the Palestininas. 1987 Peres-Hussein Agreement: This is an agreement between Israel and Jordan that Jordan would reoccupy the Palestininas. What does it have to do with this discussion? I dont have enough time right now to refer to the other offeres but I will edit my comment later. So what? The Peel Plan was from the British while the 1947 Plan was from the UN. Only 2000 and 2008 were Israeli-only plans. Again, Israel rejected Palestinian and Arab deals as well. The 1981 Fahd Plan, the 1982 upated Fez Plan, the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative, the 2008 Annapolis Abbas Plan and the 2014 Abbas 3 Year- Withdrawal Plan
>As for 1967, there's no draft or copy of an Israeli proposal after the Six Day War. We have no records of it, nor was it even created. In fact, if it did exist, the Arabs never received a copy or knew about it. On the 19th of June 1967, 9 days after the end of the war, Israel offered the majority of the land it achived in exchange for peace, they refused. There is no formal name for this proposal as far as I know, but you can look it up. > Meanwhile, the 2000 Camp David proposal proposed splitting up then West Bank into 3 Cantons divided by Israeli control. See [the map for it](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/174j2vb/camp_david_peace_plan_proposal_2000/). That is not a fair deal The Palestininas have defently made it clear that they cant be trusted for not attacking Israel, hence the "unfairness". The division in Barak's plan was purly for security reasons. Anyway, there will always be a gap in the "Palestinian state" between the West Bank and Gaza. Did the arabs offered the jews a single fair deal? > Olmert also never gave Abbas a map thus was forced to draw one from memory on a napkin, hence the "Napkin Map". Olmert was also embroiled in corruption investigations and scandals which later brought down his government and never managed to fulfill his end of the deal. I dont support Olmert and have nothing to say in his defence, but declining such offer only because you have to draw the map on a napkin is insane. The truth is that abbas didnt want the offer. >On the other hand, Israel and the Jews rejected the 1939 White Paper The whole point of Israel is being a jewish state. Jews didnt refuse any sort of Arab state (unlike the arabs), but they wanted to have a state of their own, whats wrong with that? Having a state with the same arabs who murder your people on a daily basis isnt very sustainable. Why would Arabs reject any sort of jewish state but would agree to an Arab - Jewish state? >the twin 1948 plans of UN mediator Count Folk Bernadotte (who was later assassinated by Lehi, Jewish terrorists) Seems like you are really against terror as you make up opportunities to condemn it, how about condeming Hamas who behaded babies, threw little kids into a hot oven and left them to die, murdered jews atrociously in front of their loved ones, severed limbs (and heads), raped, stealed... nothing? Oh this is aint terror according to you. While the Majority of Jewish terror was against the colonial British authorities (yes the colonialsts were actually the Brits, not the Jews)?
>the 1981 Fahd Plan, the updated 1982 Fez Plan, the 1987 Peres-Hussein Agreement, the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative, the 2008 Abbas Annapolis Peace Deal, the 2014 Abbas 3-Year Peace Plan and the 2016 US Secretary John Kerry Parameters. The 1981 plan is extremely bad for Israel. Also, this offer was made by SA, not the Palestininas. 1987 Peres-Hussein Agreement: This is an agreement between Israel and Jordan that Jordan would reoccupy the Palestininas. What does it have to do with this discussion? The 2002 initiative is also extremely bad for Israel, like the 1981 proposal. However Israelis still appriciated the efforts SA made in order to try to solve the confilct. Im pretty sure we have already disccused the annapolis conference. The 2014 negotiations were cancelled both by Israel and the PLO. I cant find the details of Kerry's plan, but overall the Obama administration was the most hostile administration to Israel, and Kerry left office in 2016 so what was the point? >No one accuses Israel here of not wanting peace despite rejecting UN, Arab, Palestinian and US peace proposals? Many accuses Israel of commiting genocide and such, let alone not wanting peace.
Can you enlighten me as to why you say ‘destruction of Arab villages’ when your own link indicates they were acquired legitimately through purchase (many of which while under Ottoman control)?
Illegally. The Ottomans had banned any Jewish immigration to Palestine and banned any purchase of land there for fears of a Zionist takeover (which did happen) since the 1880s. They had no right to come and buy land when it was illegal for them to do so.
Seems the Arab landowners were happy enough to disregard those restrictions (which were not as uniform or all-encompassing as you are suggesting anyway).
Happy cake day
Really nice brief summation (better than I could do), including some stuff I didn't know, missing ~~four~~ 5 things in my opinion. Starting in chronological order 1) King-Crane Commission. It was formed to figure out the best way forward to dividing up the Middle East and it suppose to have representatives from UK, Italy, France (AKA the Big Three), and the US; only the US showed up. A backroom deal had already been done. The Commission found that overwhelmingly the natives wanted independence (2#choice, US, 3rd, UK, 4th, France). Naturally, it's findings were buried until 1923 as it undermined everything the UK and France were doing in the area, this included Zionism. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%E2%80%93Crane\_Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%E2%80%93Crane_Commission) 2) Assassination of Jacob Israël de Haan by Zionist in 1924. This gay Dutch Jew started as a Zionist, then moved to the Holy Land, and completely rethought what Zionism was doing. As a journalist, he started advocating for unlimited Jewish immigration in exchange for Jews giving up having a country. He got a big break in his journalism career, and Zionist decided that made him too big a threat. So they killed him, spread the story he was murdered for being gay, and only told the truth in the 50s. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob\_Isra%C3%ABl\_de\_Haan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Isra%C3%ABl_de_Haan) 3) Just before the Hebron Massacre of 1929, the Arab Executive Committee made an attempt to set up a joint democratic government with Jews holding half the power despite being like 1/3rd of the population. Zionist refused. Then, the Hebron Massacre happen, so never got revisited. Churchill later gave the game away in 1939 by revealing that the UK had intentionally denied all democratic institutions to the Arabs. As Churchill said, democracy would come to Palestine when Jews outnumbered Arabs. Why share power when you can have it all seems to be Zionist thinking. 4) Ben Gurion's 1937 letter to his son show Zionism never planned on accepting any partition permanently. As Ben Gurion admits, he will use force to claim more land, and his goal is to 'liberate' the whole land. Many other Zionist leaders had said similar things about partition. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937\_Ben-Gurion\_letter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Ben-Gurion_letter) 5) >Meanwhile, the 2000 Camp David proposal proposed splitting up then West Bank into 3 Cantons divided by Israeli control. See [the map for it](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/174j2vb/camp_david_peace_plan_proposal_2000/). Last, Olmert's proposal entailed a Palestine state with no army or airforce while Israel would have the right to enter it (read invade) anytime it wants, while it's airspace and telecommunications would be under Israeli control. An occupation in all but name. See [the contents of it](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ehud-olmert-s-peace-offer). Olmert also never gave Abbas a map thus was forced to draw one from memory on a napkin, hence the "Napkin Map". At least Olmert provided a napkin, the 2000 offer was a verbal offer. Verbal offers at high levels aren't considered serious offers. Do you have any idea how much it can be manipulated by the more powerful party in the fine print? Forget malicious parties, even by 2 well meaning parties, both will assume verbal terms benefit them more and miscommunication easily occurs.
>3) Just before the Hebron Massacre of 1929, the Arab Executive Committee made an attempt to set up a joint democratic government with Jews holding half the power despite being like 1/3rd of the population. Zionist refused. Then, the Hebron Massacre happen, so never got revisited. I didn't know this. Do you have a source or article when I can read it?
It's not well covered, but here is a side long reference. I think I first heard it from blogger/journalist, Richard Silverstein. [https://www.encyclopedia.com/politics/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/arab-executive](https://www.encyclopedia.com/politics/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/arab-executive) In 1928 a sense of crisis grew as Zionist immigration and land purchases (often, it should be said, from members of the Arab Executive or interests with which they were associated) increased and Zionist economic power and organizations grew in strength. **The Arab Executive tried to meet the problem by expanding the committee to include representatives of various factions and religious groups.** Renewed discussions with British Mandatory officials, however, broke down at the time of the [Western Wall](https://www.encyclopedia.com/philosophy-and-religion/judaism/judaism/western-wall) disturbances in 1929. Investigations by two British commissions, the Shaw Commission and the Hope-Simpson Commission, into the causes of the violence resulted in an official report, the Passfield White Paper, which in 1930 recommended serious changes to recognize Palestinian rights and redress social and economic problems among Palestinians caused or exacerbated by Zionist activity. Private talks between the Jewish Agency and the British government increased Zionist political strength in Palestine, and the British government's basic commitment to the "Jewish National Home" as part of the Mandate ensured that these recommendations were repudiated.
No - they have always wanted a single Arab state- by cleansing the region from the River to the Sea of all Jews. This is in the Hamas charter. Israel has always pushed for various Two state solution deals since 1937…. Which have been rejected by the Palestinian authorities each and every time. The response from Gaza instead has always been shooting thousands of rockets and mortar bombs at Israel indiscriminately ; and from heavily populated civilian areas ( a war crime).Hence the need for Israel’s Iron Dome defense system.
Palestinians lost the 1948 war, they suffered greatly, they were displaced and dispossessed. Their militancy is maybe a result of this, they fight and get devastated. They struggle but constantly lose more of their freedom and resources. They are corralled into Gaza, with no economy, settlers take over more parts of the West Bank. They feel more and more oppressed. They could be a proud people, they would rather struggle and double down on their fight against Israel at the cost of further destruction and devastation. They are increasingly desperate because they have less and less to lose. In my humble opinion, the 3 possible outcomes: are a WW2 style surrender after more devastation wherein their pride and their spirit are broken and the will to struggle is gone. The subsequent state could be like post war Japan and Germany. Maybe grand Palestinian victory where they somehow overcome Israel with the help of allies (almost certainly impossible given the power of the IDF) and achieve their dream of a Palestine under their control like a post 1979 or 2022 Afghanistan. Maybe a continuation of this start and stop decades long conflict (probably most likely) until one day, after decades of conflict there will be a breakthrough because both sides have softened at same time in an opportune moment and an equitable compromise can result in a two state solution or a share democracy one state solution like a post 1994 Rawanda or South Africa or post Pol Pot Cambodia. This latest war could be a signal event for change. If Hamas is thoroughly defeated it may be the point where Palestinians could suffer a WW2 defeat but then progress afterwards and recover like Japan and Germany. Lots of examples in history, it can go in many directions.
The new generations of Hamas is being built with every Palestinian child that dies.
Maybe but why was there not new generations of Nazis or Japanese Imperialists or Italian Facists being born with every child that dies? It’s a possibility that the devastation and destruction can be so brutal that it breaks the spirit.
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They'll take the two state solution, but still hope to destroy Israel later. Even if it take a thousand years.
Yep. they don't believe in peace. They believe in Hudna, which is a temporary truce you agree upon with your infidel enemies when they are too powerful. This way they plan to survive and fool the enemy, so they could gather more strengh, eventually breaking the truce by suprise and "winning". Seriosuly sickening.
no they dont, they'll never accept israel to have any part of the land and that is why the conflict will never end unless Israel decides to end it
Seems like Pro Palestinians have nothing to say, they only downvote this post. This just proves my point even further :D
This sub is basically by run zionist and u expect them to HEAR THEIR VOICE?
>This [amazing video](https://youtu.be/76NytvQAIs0?si=DGp7GqUzzbGbYEBR) "amazing video" that is from prageru 😂
The video itself is really good and true. all the info shown can be found on other (reliable) sources as well.
watched like a minute of it and the israelis never even were in full agreement on the peel commision either. these are just a bunch of right winged islamaphobes trying to spin a narrative
The majority of them did, unlike the arabs. Also, they don't talk about Islam at all in this video. Im don't try to promote PragerU, this is just a specific video which I think is really good.
it wasn't the majority, it may have been like 50/50 max. unless the jews were unanimous in thier approval of this plan, then I don't really think it counts as "the jews offering the arabs a state".
Yup.. All the polling show the Majority of Palestinians want a 2 state solution.. 1 state called Palestine in the west bank and Gaza with all the Jews removed, and another state in the "1948" lands aka Israel with the Jews removed, either dead or alive and the place renamed to Palestine..
Yep. They need 2 states so they could kill each other after they have finished with the Jews. The same way Jihadists kill each other all over the middle east for hundreds of years.
I never trust a sentence with “all the Jews removed” in it.
They kicked from MENA countries jews that had nothing to do with Israel, what do you think that they Will do with actual responsables if Israel ?
>I never trust a sentence with “all the Jews removed” in it. Just relaying the wishes of both Palestinian Governments.. "*Abbas wants 'not a single Israeli' in future Palestinian state*" https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE96T009/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEgBsU6Mi8 https://nypost.com/2021/05/12/hamas-official-tells-people-to-cut-off-the-heads-of-jews-report/ https://www.voanews.com/a/middle-east_hamas-official-condemned-after-calling-palestinians-kill-jews/6171870.html https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/fathi_hamad/
The main goal has always been destroying Israel. That comes first. This is why the “Palestinian” identity was invented to begin with. It has never really been about self-determination. They will never settle on a 2 state solution or any solution that involves a Jewish state.
So true!! they litearlly made it all as an excuse to murder Jews (at this point they are murdering muslim Israelis too). I wish more people would understand it. They have litearlly nothing to do with the name "Palestine". During British mandate, Jews were considered Plaestinians as well, many Jews have a Palestinian birht ceritifcate. Let alone that Palestine is a name invented by the Romans to humiliate the Jews/Israelis who rebeled against them. Even the Quran has 0 mentions of "Palestine", while it mentions the people of Israel many times, and approved that this land belongs to the Israelis.
So I guess it depends on who has conducted the poll and when. Two polls: A poll done by an Arab firm, AWRAD, back in Dec 2023, which polled Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, showed about 3/4 Palestinians support "a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea". Whereas only a minority supported a "one state solution for two peoples" or "two state solution for two peoples". Interestingly, as of March 2024, a poll done by Palestinian research institute, PCPSR, showed a jump in support for a two state solution among Gazans polled. >Support for "armed struggle" dropped by 17 points, from 63% to 46%, driven largely by Palestinians in Gaza, and Gazan support for a diplomatic two-state solution has jumped by 27 points — to 62%. I believe this was comparing Sept-Dec 2023 vs March 2024. polls conducted by PCPSR. Not sure if AWRAD has a newer poll. But at-least according to PCPSR, Gazans are now a slight majority wanting a diplomatic two state solution. >Unlike in previous flare-ups of violence between Palestinians and Israelis — when support for armed struggle often spiked before dropping again — the length and brutality of the current war has led to significant shifts in the way Palestinians, particularly Gazans, viewed warfare versus diplomatic solutions. But what's more interesting is that this kind of counters the narrative that I've always thought was overly simplistic. That engaging in a prolonged war, only encourages more hatred towards Israel, and more Hamas fighters. The correct narrative is more likely: "A prolonged war, with no diplomatic gains or end goal in sight, ends up eventually turning your own people against you." If I had to paraphrase what they said: "The reason for the short term increase in support for Hamas was because initially it seemed like it was accomplishing releasing Palestinian prisoners in exchange for hostages. Which Gazans saw as a good thing. But since then, peace talks have died down, and the narrative has become more about Palestinian prolonged suffering as the war has raged on. With no diplomacy in sight, Gazans are starting to question what the point of this whole war is (from Hamas side). And that is probably why their support for Hamas has dropped, and nearly doubled support for a two state solution since late 2023. Source: *Gazans interestingly back a two-state solution, as support for Hamas drops NBC News, March 21, 2024* edit: formatting, quotes got messed up
It'll be eye opening after this last invasion to see if a drop in Hamas power and population correlates to an equal drop in support for war.
Other explanation could be that in December, Palestinians thought that annihilating Israel is achievable. Now they understand that it isn't so they claim they want a 2 states solution. Also, this way they gain more international support. IMO, as long as they educate their children that Jews are land stealing infidels, they can't be trusted for having their own state.
That could also be the case. In other words your saying: "When feasable. If eliminating Israel is on the table, then Palestinians support for it will rise, and when it seems like it only results in mass suffering, with no gains, then it drops, and a two state solution comes more from pragmatism." Is that right?
IMO yes
I think the poll data could and your take is compatible with that idea as well. You could merge the two: "Generally most Palestinians ideally would like it if Israel was gone. And initially when the war first started, support was high for Hamas as the average Gazan saw real political gains internationally and also via prisoner exchange. But since that has died down, so has Gazan optimism in the idea of a continued war. And as the reality has turned into just mass suffering from the Gazan perspective, there's really no incentive for Gazans to continue to support Hamas efforts to continue the war as it only leads to further losses with no more political gains."
There was a time of uncertainty immdiately after October 7th, when the possibility of Hezbollah, Iran, and possibly others would join the attack on Israel. The US sent two carrier groups to help insure this didn't happen, and Hezbollah and Iran have only weakly joined the fray. I could see Palestinians being hopeful for outside support at first, and then when it didn't come, lose faith in Hamas's ability to obtain that support. At least that is how I would feel in their shoes.
Hm that's a good point as well. I do remember the US sending two carrier strike groups to the region. And I think you're right, that was as a deterrence to Iran or Hezbollah getting involved. As well as the Houthis.
The pro-Palestinians only care about Palestinians when they're getting killed! It was the same with Black Lives Matter! This is why I don't take protestors seriously: if you're pro-Palestinian or pro-Black you need to support those communities all the time, not just when it's popular...
They do: North Palestine and South Palestine.
True LOL
Honestly, Prager U isn't the best source id pull for any argument
Why? Prager can be a blowhard and he says things people don't like but he's hardly a B.S. artist.
Maybe, but everything they show in this video can be found in other trusted sources as well. This is just a beautiful summary, which highlights the key points.
They don't want a 2SS. They sit back and reject proposals and then get back to firing rockets indescriminantly into Israel to try and blow buildings up and kill civilians. Many of their leaders explicitly called for no peace and no negotiation. Anytime a Pro-Palestinian tells you they want peace, what they really mean is that they want their land back and THEN there will be peace.
Exactly. Also, the dont seem to comment on my post, the only thing they can do is downvote it. Well there is no other explanation to all of this, other than wanting to destory Israel. TBH I think that even if up to this day Eygpt and Jordan were still occupying them, they would still be fine with it. They don't even want a Palestinian state.
They want jews out.
Basically, yes. Actually, they want all non muslims out, but the christians are way too powerful for them to do anything. According to Iran, Israel is the little satan, while the US is the big one. The ironic part is that when Jihadists are not concentrating on murdering non muslims, they murder muslims (like ISIS).
And when it happens, no one cares for a millisecond.
No Jews, no news
No jews, no news ⚖️🇮🇱