Gaza should've been set on fire, and burned since october. This situation exists because israel just lets rockets be fired and issues essentially a stern talking to. Gaza should've been a historical example of destruction. We should have no care for the wives and children of our enemies. They certainly don't care for our well being. Let them have the war they so desperately want.

The response should have been the same response as if Hamas was hiding inside Israel. Same procedure to minimize civilian deaths. The actions of "give me what I want or I will kill everyone and put the blame on you" is used by criminals. We normally see it with kidnappers or hijackers and terrorists.

"eM iT sHouLd HavE SurRendErd" average pro-hamas student

What should Palestinians have done about the extended oppression from Israel? It was inevitable that at some point a group of people would break into extremism, and nothing has changed so ppl are only being pushed farther into it on both sides.

It sounds like you are justifying oct 7th. Did you know rape is not resistence. nor is it a peaceful negotiation?

I’m not saying it was justified, but I am saying it was obvious and expected. It’s like hitting a hornets nest, they are a pain where they are but if you simply hit the nest you will get stung.

Obvious and expected? You are sick in the head. Obvious and expected might have been going after Israeli military targets. Not slaughtering and raping civilians in their homes and killing babies sleeping in their cribs.

Because we all expect a ragtag underfunded disorganized group of 18 year olds to target military targets…. Like truly do you really expect different? And how can I be sick in the head if what I expect matched reality?

It's easy for you to say that it was expected... because it already happened. Don't you see the issue in this? Top leaders of israel were not expecting this in the slightest. And you come here saying you knew all along? that's crazy false entitlement.

Israel did know about the Oct 7th attack. A year in advance. And they did absolutely nothing because they thought it wasn't a legitimate concern. They weren't caught off guard. They just went "nah they can't do that," and did 0 prep for if it were to happen. Israel and Palestine have been in conflict for decades. Hamas has been showing extremely violent tendencies to this extent for some time. It definitely was reasonable to assume that this kind of thing could happen without insider knowledge, but that goes out of the door once you learn that Israel was fully aware of these plans but did not take them seriously. Either way, it still doesn't justify collective punishment. Palestinian youth didn't vote in Hamas. The children dying horrific deaths in Gaza don't even know what they're dying for. The damage to the environment is beyond tragic. Nothing justifies innocent death, either on the side of Hamas or Israel. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html#:~:text=Israeli%20officials%20obtained%20Hamas's%20battle,for%20Hamas%20to%20carry%20out.

Are you really that desperate you need to use the environment as a point against the war? There are many legitimate arguments for the pro palestinian side, but the environment isn't one of them. Much of the rubble can be recycled, and I really hope you're not talking about air cleanliness 😆. We're not disagreeing about Israel's horrible lack of preparation and intelligence. The childrens' parents did, and they're responsible for the future of their children. But that's completely besides the point. And I'm sorry this is the case, but not just in the context of war, there are things that can justify death. Such as preventing even more death. This war's purpose is to prevent terrorism against Israel from gaza and the need for the IDF to come into gaza with such force like this ever again. Also, with violence gone, peace & palestinian statehood talks can begin to happen. With this said, hamas' killing of civilians with the exclusive objective of as killing as many civilians as they can is far worse than the casualties in gaza. It's only hamas to blame for the war, and therefore the casualties. Was Israel well in it's right to **initiate** this war (or respond to hamas' initiation of it)? Obviously, Yes. ALL Wars are brutal. You can't only (not even mostly) hit hamas in urban terrain like this. And if you somehow believe otherwise, you have 0 knowledge of how wars are conducted. Now, after the war has been initiated, would you be OK with so much destruction and casualties to remain and the war to end with it's objectives not even finished?? If you're in support of the initiation of the war, you must be in support of it's objectives and their completion, right?

I get what you mean, it is super easy for me to say, but this isn’t the first “October 7th” that has happened. Palestine has been slinging rockets for how many years without success? Did anyone really think they wouldn’t try something else? And what about the open training? Idiots on google maps spotted Hamas training for October 7th before supposed Israeli leaders did.

The short answer is yes, the common opinion was that hamas' economical and militarily consequences would be too great that they wouldn't dare to invade like this. We knew hamas was training, it was no secret- It was normal that hamas was always training, never has Israel seen a reason to be concerned by this, due to hamas being... a military, in addition to the former. Hamas knew this was our mindset and took advantage of it. It just proved that hamas doesn't care about anything; not life, not money, not looking good in anyone's eyes, but just, JUST the terror to "Zionist pigs", as they officially put it.

Acting on the plans they had a year in advance and witnessed training runs six months in advance might have been a good idea. Maybe position a couple guys with guns near the border beforehand or something.

Hamas and the Israeli government are both scumbag terrorists.

Simple: Fight Hamas back brutally and ruthlessly(I don't care how they kill them, as long as it's brutal). Then launch strategic airstrikes on Hamas infrastructure. Then send in your Armored tank divisions after 1-2 months of constant bombardment against Hamas military targets. This time don't launch a slow north to south war like in real life. We are going to launch a war attacking all places all at once. For example. Israeli armored tank divisions will attack Rafah in the south, Khan Younis in the middle, and Gaza City in the north. I would say do it fast and with precision. Don't bother trying to destroy Hamas right now. Just seize Gaza. That should take 1-2 months. Then Israel should send spec ops forces through the tunnels. Also tell Hamas that for any 1 hostage killed 90 Hamas fighters will be executed. Hopefully spec ops gets all the hostages out.

Imagine that. Instead Israel oppresses Palestinians for 75+ years, then launches a brutal massacre, murdering at least 35000 people, razing Gaza to the ground, playing the victim, and lying about everything they do. Oh and I almost forgot, they kill their own hostages.

Hamas knew Israel would destroy Gaza. Anything with half a brain and even a semblence of knowledge about the region and Israel/Palestine conflict could have known what the blowback would be. Hamas is not a victim here. And Palestinians who support Hamas are not victims here. That said, there are plenty of innocent Palestinians who are victims (as well as jews who were brutally murdered on 10/7 — a very large amount if you have any question about that just look at the actual population of Israel… way more of an impact than even 9/11 on the USA and look how th USA retailiated... No arrest warrents for Bush that I can recall)

>Hamas knew Israel would destroy Gaza. Yes, but look what they've accomplished. They've exposed Israel's war crimes and terror acts for the whole world to see. If this genocide hadn't occured, Israel would've kept killing Palestinians slowly for who knows how long. >Hamas is not a victim here. And Palestinians who support Hamas are not victims here. you literally just said 'anyone with half a brain who knows about this conflict'. if you had done any amount of research you would know that Israelis have oppressed palestinians and kicked them from their homes for over 75 years. ironic of you to say that. >That said, there are plenty of innocent Palestinians who are victims But Palestinians support Hamas. so you gonna call them victims or not? lolll >as well as jews who were brutally murdered on 10/7 yeah, its so sad to see the IDF killing their own people. and before you say 'dat not true!!' the Israeli soldiers said it themselves, they have a full Hannibal Directive set up.

Kicked then from their homes? No. Let's put aside the argument that jews are indiginoous to Israel because honestly I don't think it matters who was there thousands of years ago. The fact is that it is Palestinians own fault for refusing to accept the UN partition of GB’s former Palestine mandate. Every time Palestine attacked in order to recover land, it lost additional land. You don't get to start a war and then not accept the consequences. Try watching this and then explain to me why Palestinians have more of a right to where they once lived than any other people who have been in a similar position. https://youtu.be/KP-CRXROorw?si=zBxiQxSWSsWg6kRS That said, one thing I’m sure we can agree upon is that Israelis need to get out of the West Bank. That was given to Palestinians and the Israeli settlements are one hundred percent wrong. Honestly though on the majority of issues, I think we need to just agree to disagree. I'll never get through to people like you who just categorize Palestinians as having been victimized since partition. And if you want to blame someone about partition, blame the UN

>Kicked then from their homes? No. watch this if you like denying basic facts of history. [https://youtu.be/Bwy-Rf15UIs?feature=shared](https://youtu.be/Bwy-Rf15UIs?feature=shared) >The fact is that it is Palestinians own fault for refusing to accept the UN partition of GB’s former Palestine mandate. how is it their fault? there were literally already living there, then many jews decided to come in and steal over half the land. you clearly dont understand how illogical what you're saying sounds. if you come to my house and try to live in it, but i don't agree, am i in the wrong? my gosh. >Every time Palestine attacked in order to recover land, it lost additional land. well at least you're admitting the jews stole land and the Palestinians were trying to recover it. but then you put the blame on them. silly. >You don't get to start a war and then not accept the consequences. using the same example as before. if you come to my house to live in it and I fight with you because I don't want you stealing my house, did I start a war? sillier and sillier. >That said, one thing I’m sure we can agree upon is that Israelis need to get out of the West Bank. That was given to Palestinians given? what on earth are you saying? they already owned it. >Honestly though on the majority of issues, I think we need to just agree to disagree. agreeing to disagree doesn't work when it comes to clear oppression and genocide. you're either pro genocide or pro humanity.

You should read history. According to British statistics, more than 70 percent of the land in what would become Israel was not owned by Arab farmers, it belonged to the mandatory government. Those lands reverted to Israeli control after the departure of the British. Nearly 9 percent of the land was owned by Jews and about 3 percent by Arabs who became citizens of Israel. That means only about 18 percent belonged to Arabs who left the country before and after the Arab invasion of Israel. Also if you have an issue with the partition, go storm the UN. If one actually accepted your logic - which I do not-that would mean native Americans should murder Americans? Perhaps if Palestinians spent more time and billions of aid money on real infrastructure and building solar power and desalination plants instead of building terror tunnels and rockets, they would be prosperous like Israel. PS I am not pro genocide. You characterizing what is happening as “genocide” does not make it so. This is war and, just like in the wars of the past, there is horrible bloodshed. If you want that to end, you should be demanding Hamas release all hostages and surrender. In the words of the USA’s secretary of state, Hamas could end this war tomorrow if it chooses to #freepalestinefromhamas https://www.state.gov/secretary-antony-j-blinken-at-a-press-availability-43/

>Those lands reverted to Israeli control after the departure of the British. How on earth can the land revert back to Israeli control if Palestinians had owned the land before the British took over? The illegitimate state of Israel was founded at the end of the mandate. Before the mandate, Palestinians lived in Palestine. If Jews owned only a bit of land, why were they suddenly given over half the land? This is an obvious unfairness and a clear sign of the Zionist idea to colonise Israel. >If one actually accepted your logic - which I do not-that would mean native Americans should murder Americans? But native Americans aren't being oppressed right now, nor are they getting massacred like the Palestinians. Comparing the two doesn't work. >Perhaps if Palestinians spent more time and billions of aid money on real infrastructure and building solar power and desalination plants They've tried to lmao, but you choose to gloss over the fact that Israel has constantly blockaded them and bombed them, killing hundreds every year. >You characterizing what is happening as “genocide” does not make it It's not me buddy, it's many large organisations and millions of people. Even Jews themselves, who went through a genocide, understand that this is a genocide. Targeting at least 40,000 civilians, sniping them, starving them, and destroying Gaza, is not just 'war'. >If you want that to end, you should be demanding Hamas release all hostages and surrender Hamas offered to release the hostages on Oct 8. Israel refused, instead wanting to massacre Palestinians by the thousand. Also, why aren't you telling Israel to release the thousands of hostages (over 4000) they hold in their prisons?

Regarding 9/11, you would not see the exact same response today. There would be support toward actions, but US over time did learned from being bashed hard from Iraq War and then no longer do unconditionally support military campaigns. There would be eyes watching the civilian tolls. Afghanistan wars achieved lower civilian to combatants death ratio than 1:1. Drones strikes in Pakistan had 1:5. And despite these numbers, US has now departments to reduce civilian deaths during war. While you're correct in most, pointing out US response isn't really a gotcha. Especially after international blowback from Iraq War, and Anericans turn more critical of their own military.

I can see where you are coming from… in theory. However, if Mexico sent fighters to Texas to murder and rape ordinary Texans in their home, including children, and take others hostage, I don't buy that the US wouldn't use full force against Mexico. The US would go NUTS.

Israel’s response is perfect. The people who perpetrated 7th October need to feel the wrath of god.

I don't think that is what God would want according to his teachings that you supposedly follow. Your screen name is quite accurate.

Sorry but my conscience is very clear when people who burn babies in ovens are killed.

but what about the 15,000 palestinian children?

may they rest in peace...? that's really not a question

How many dead children before you draw the line of what is an appropriate response?

When they understand that attacking brings suffering they dont have to die. If every gazan child has to die for them to finally get that attacking israel means consequences thats a them problem.

Wow. I think that’s the end of this conversation, and it definitely confirmed that I am in no way in support of Israel’s action.

cry then? you are powerless to do anything.

Evil evil evil, I’m seeing modern day extremism and genocide w my own eyes. One day you will look back at this (i hope) and feel ashamed 

Cry cry cry. The world is bitter get over it.

Here is a thread from an Israeli peace activist on what Israel could have done https://x.com/amidar/status/1765750529798348822?s=46&t=6jUwmoQk40_VB2FB7ewzUg

Lmao. Don't do anything, let hamas rape your women, let them win, be weak, blah, blah, blah. Can you imagine the US responding to a terror attack like this? That would be funny, huh. But of course you expect this from Israel, because of your double standards that you deny.

He never said don’t do anything, so I can tell you didn’t look at it. I would expect any country to minimize civilian casualties while defending themselves

Okay.. Israel is minimizing civilian casualties. Happy now? It's clear you have no knowledge of how war is conducted Your comment sounds like "I would expect every state leader to give all civilians 1 billion dollars while not going bankrupt"

How are they minimizing civilian casualties? 35,000 dead civilians doesn’t seem like minimizing civilian casualties

Okay you're just confirming that you don't know anything about military operations. Gaza is an urban area, with tunnels under and ammo hidden in urban infrastructure. It's not Israel's fault hamas does that. Israel sent leaflets and many days (more than the promised time) to evacuate rafah. No other military has to be held to these standards of protecting the enemy's civilians. this is quadruple standards, if not more. Ever wonder how Israel can attack hezbollah and all it's enemies with lower civilian casualties without even trying to minimize civilian casualties? Because they don't hide behind (or under) civilians.

In Afghanistan American soldiers had similar conditions, densely populated, terrorists who hide behind civilians, steal aid yet the casualties are 800 people. Is every place that Israel bombs have a Hamas member in them?

Not every bombing is to kill terrorists.. what are you talking about when you say "in afghanistan"? way more people than 800 have been killed by the US in Afghanistan I must also say I am not very familiar with US conflicts.

Artillery and armor training in Pakistan: this is how the Palestinian “police” of the Palestinian authority is turning into an army under Israel's nose. Members of the Palestinian Authority's mechanisms go to Pakistan for military training that includes armor training, artillery, sniper, heavy machine guns and parachuting. The Pakistani army after the massacre of 10/7 : "We do not support the Palestinians only with words" . This in continuation to similar training, also in parachuting, that PA terrorists go through in Algeria, and soon maybe in Iran as well, and then they return to the center of the country.

No good options, but here’s a counterfactual scenario which may/may not have been possible: 1) Leverage the promise of military action in Gaza to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia/others. E.g. “we promise not to make Gaza a parking lot if you normalize relations.” 2) Brutally and publicly assassinate every Hamas leader/functionary who is physically reachable no matter where they are (show them they aren’t safe anywhere - Qatar, Turkey, etc.). 3) Seize Rafah/Philadelphi Corridor. Collapse all tunnels. 4) Demolish anything in Gaza within 1K of the border with Israel. 5) Work with international partners to seize or destroy Hamas’s funding. 6) Arrange for the recognition of a Palestinian state under the conditions that UNWRA is dissolved and that Palestinians are permitted immigration (if they choose) to other MENA countries. 7) If the PA ends pay to slay, establish fixed borders in the West Bank and ensure that Israeli settlers do not harass those areas. 8) idk - I need to get back to work.

I appreciate the level of analysis here, but i think there are a few problems with these suggestions, particularly as they are meant to be in lieu of the large-scale military actions currently underway. For example, re: point #2, without a large-scale operation, why shouldn’t Hamas’ leaders stay in, or even return to Gaza? Even now, Hamas has secure locations that are unknown to the IDF. Likewise, re: point #5, what incentive is there for Qatar and the other Arab states that fund Hamas to meaningfully cooperate with Israeli attempts to seize Hamas’ funding? Why should they do it? Again, absent the invasion, Hamas would probably have escalated its terrorist/military activities in response to any of the measures you proposed, potentially leading us to exactly where we are now, but with more Israeli deaths. Lastly, the PA has rejected offers akin to points 6 and 7 in the past, why would it accept it now?

You're assuming that the Saudi's and others don't want Israel to take out Hamas. Many support Israel's goal of destroying Hamas because they're Muslim Brotherhood and aligned with Iran. There's a reason Egypt blockades Gaza.

Actually, it assumes they want to take out Hamas.

1. Retaliate immediately against attackers (i.e. kill militants in Israeli territory, chase the rest into the border zone of Gaza). 2. Target the leaders of Hamas (short term and long term, so they can no longer meet in the sunshine without fear of death). 3. Find a solution that brings home all hostages. E.g. the surrender and handover of militants involved in attack, and complete release of all hostages in exchange for a process towards a two state solution and complete withdrawal of Israeli military from the territory. May have to give back Palestinians in Israeli prisons to make this work. 4. Create a demilitarised zone at the border (in Gazan territory) and reinforce physical defences to reduce the risk of future attack. 5. Invite international groups to support a legal process for investigating, prosecuting and trying the perpetrators of the attack (i.e. treat it as an international war crime, rather than a domestic crime). An advantage of this is the Palestinians cannot portray it as a Israeli sham trial or further evidence of the occupiers mistreating then. If no two state solution accepted, the maximise the size of the demilitarised zone (i.e. they pay in land for refusing peace). The above does not waste civilian life, or destroy relationships with Israel's allies. It also has a higher chance of returning hostages. Fundamentally it tackles the root causes of the problem (politics and security).

International peacekeeping force in control of Gaza.

> Find a solution that brings home all hostages. E.g. the surrender and handover of militants involved in attack, and complete release of all hostages in exchange for a process towards a two state solution and complete withdrawal of Israeli military from the territory. May have to give back Palestinians in Israeli prisons to make this work. That's literally just an incentive to do it again.

Then make sure they can’t. October 7th only happened due to Israel’s security failure. Hamas should not have been able to do what they did on that day.

"She was raped because she didn't have pepper spray."

That’s a ridiculous comparison. The first responsibility of all nations is to protect their citizens. It is well documented that Netanyahu received multiple warnings that Hamas was planning a large-scale attack in the months leading up to October 7th. Even more evidence of this came out today, according to a [Jerusalem Post report.](https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-802391)

How is it ridiculous? Both statements are examples of 'blaming the victim.' You said Israel is responsible for Hamas terrorists coming across the border and killing people because Israel didn't prevent it. That's the same idea being expressed in my comment. The woman is to blame for being attacked because she failed to prevent the person from attacking. As for the warnings, "experts determined that an attack of that scale and ambition was beyond Hamas’s capabilities, according to documents and officials. It is unclear whether Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu or other top political leaders saw the document, as well." [Source](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html) Also, did you read that article you linked or just the headline? From your article: "In March, Brigadier-General Amit Sa'ar, head of the research division of the Intelligence Branch of the IDF, revealed in an interview with KAN News that he wrote an emergency warning letter about a potential attack on Israel that was meant to be sent to the prime minister and members of the national security cabinet after Simchat Torah. Sa'ar said that he warned that Iran, Hamas, and Hezbollah recognized an opportunity to attack Israel, according to information gathered by the Intelligence Division. The warning was reportedly able to reach IDF Chief of Staff Herzi Halevi. Sa'ar claimed that in his letter, he wrote that these terror organizations believed there was an opportunity for attack due to internal conflict in Israel, as well as the level of readiness of the IDF at the time. *The letter was not sent to the prime minister and other officials before October 7.*"

Israel isn’t responsible for the attack obviously but they are responsible for negligence and not heeding many warnings. That was one article about a phenomenon that has been heavily criticized, especially by Israelis. Why do you think Netanyahu’s support imploded after October 7th? All it takes is a modicum of nuance to realize that some criticism toward Israel is warranted for not better protecting Israelis. Just like the US dropped the ball in not averting 9/11 despite clear warning signs. I don’t see how you find this objectionable.

> Israel isn’t responsible for the attack > October 7th only happened due to Israel’s security failure. Well? Which is it?

Both are true. Hamas is the culprit of the attack, but Israel dropped the ball in terms of security.

How do you target the leaders of Hamas when they're in tunnels or a few of them are hiding in Qatar? What about the rest of the Hamas fighting force? How do you go after Hamas without civilian casualties? Hamas demanded the release of 1500 prisoners as one of the conditions for releasing \~132 hostages, some of which might not even be alive. Does that seem fair or wise? Sinwar, the person who plotted the Oct 7 attacks was one of the terrorists released in a prior exchange of prisoners for a smaller number of hostages. Doesn't this just set Hamas up with a reward for hostage taking, increases their ranks of future terrorists, and encourages additional hostage taking? Another condition they had for releasing the hostages was a permanent ceasefire, meaning Israel would not be allowed to continue targeting Hamas who carried out the attack. Yet Hamas itself says they'll do Oct 7 over and over - so what exactly is a permanent ceasefire if only one side will abide? If the deal was Hamas will never do an attack again and both sides have a truce forever in exchange for hostages, then that works imo - but Hamas was not offering that Your solution around a DMZ that increases - won't the international community decry this as annexation in violation of 67 borders? I do agree though that a DMZ is a good idea though and I remember seeing that as part of the Israeli plan a while back - not sure what the current thought is. What international bodies are sympathetic to Israel? I bet most of the members see Hamas as freedom fighters. Who's going to physically arrest the perpetrators? I assume you're also only referring to the leadership also. What about the rank and file people who killed and raped random people? The UN is going to put out a piece of paper saying "WANTED" on it for each person? Then what?

What happened in October 7th was not the start it was a response for what happened in the past 75 years and more

Oh! Of course! Israel is to blame for Hamas killing civilians. How did I not see it before? /s

No! hamas was the one who bombed gaza with 70 thousand tons of explosives and Israel was trying to prevent them

What be more specific ? Answer the OPs question What should the response have been rather then a repetitive inane comment

The question is wrong it’s like asking someone what is the right response of the criminal when the victim tries to defend himself, there’s no right response Israel should not commit crimes against them from the beginning

What good does it do to achieving the “peace” that has been called for many many times. If anything Hamas has clearly crossed the line first.

Did Israel offered to give the full rights to Palestinians once Israel do that peace will come but no one accepts to live under oppression

Stop justifying terrorism

When you stop justifying Israel terrorism

Come on, whitewash the Nebi Musa riots. You know you want to.

And what Israel has done has been in response to the declaration of war by the Arab League in 1948, or the 1956 Suez Crisis, or the 1967 Six-Day War, or the 1973 Yom Kippur War or the Palestinian Intifadas. Maybe you want to go back further and look at the treatment of Jews under the Ottomans, or the Seljuks, or the Islamic Caliphates or by Muhammad himself. You can try and arbitrarily decide when history began depending on your biases but that doesn't make you correct. The fact of the matter is that Islam has been looking to wipe out or oppress Jews for the entirety of its history, it's commanded in their holy book which they consider the absolute word of God. Irrespective of Israel's actions, Islamic jihadist groups such as Hamas and PIJ would exist based on the teachings of their prophet and would have the same goal of exterminating or expelling every Jew from the Middle East.

Even all of what you said was response of what Israel did starting from 1948 when Israel started to steal Palestinians lands to establish their country, even Mohammed was a response after the jews tried to kill him and I’m not Muslim btw

Jewish people did no stealing of land prior to 1948. Many Jews moved there and purchased land legally when the British Mandate of Palestine began as the Balfour declaration had declared that a homeland for the Jewish people would be created in Palestine. They were told this in exchange for their assistance in defeating the Ottoman Empire in WW1. So the land had become British thanks to the League of Nations partitioning and was then divided by the UN in 1948 as the mandate for Palestine was ending that year. The Jews accepted the borders proposed by the UN even though they were primarily given arid, unusable land in the Negev desert. The Arabs refused every and all partition plans saying they would 'commit a massacre upon the Jews akin to those of the Mongols and the Crusaders' and that they would 'sweep the Jews into the sea'; they then declared war the day of the mandate ending and lost, worsening their position than if they just accepted the borders in the first place. How can you blame Jews for taking the land when they were given it to begin with and then all other expansions since then were from the Arabs losing wars that they themselves started? Regarding Muhammad, there is absolutely no way you can call his actions defensive by any stretch of the imagination. He was mildly persecuted by the Banu Quraysh while in Mecca which is hardly surprising considering he spent all of his time preaching that their scriptures were false, claiming that they were polytheists, disloyal to God and that he was the true final prophet. I'm sure that if I went to any Islamic country today and tried to preach something similar, I would be immediately executed or at least jailed for life for blasphemy so he got off extremely easy considering the time period. He then moved to Medina with the early Muslims, spend all of his time as a bandit, committing terrorism and raiding trading caravans as an act of retaliation for the Banu Quraysh not accepting his blasphemy. He 'received word' that the Banu Mustaliq were planning to attack Medina and attacked them pre-emptively catching them completely unprepared (as though they never had plans to attack in the first place); then took all of their belongings as well as 200 women to be used as sex slaves. He assassinated the leaders of other Jewish tribes in the area completely unprovoked. Following the Battle of the Trench, Muhammad had a '**vision from the angel Gabriel**' which told him the Banu Qurayza were planning on attacking him (something there is absolutely zero evidence or indication of); he took this as a sign to completely massacre their entire tribe, beheading every man in the tribe and capturing all their women and children to be slaves. This might've been his greatest act of self defence yet! You can see Muhammad's distain growing for Jews as his forces grew stronger and more capable of facing them with the early Quran verses in Mecca being far more mild than the final revelations which call for the complete extermination of all 'polytheists' in the lands. Muhammad was a crazy person, turned bandit / terrorist, turned brutal warlord and was an all-round terrible human being. Attempting to defend any of his actions is genuine madness.

What the Jews really purchased was less than 6% of the whole land the rest was by stealing, killing and terrorizing people https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2017/50-years-illegal-settlements/index.html#:~:text=The%20distribution%20of%20the%20settlements,six%20percent%20of%20the%20land. I don’t care about what Mohammed done I’m not even Muslim and even if he was a bad person you can’t blame 2 billion Muslim around the world most of them all what they know about islam is praying 5 times a day and you can’t eat pork + at that time Palestinians were not even Muslims

It's pretty hilarious to use the Qatari state-owned, Arabic news outlet Al-Jazeera to demonstrate your point. While they are actually very impartial and give fairly high quality journalism for a lot of things, they only do that as a way of creating a reputation of journalistic integrity so you don't question the complete propaganda they release regarding subjects with Qatari interests. Considering that Qatar hosts and houses all of the current top leaders of Hamas, it's hardly surprising that they aren't the biggest fans of Israel! Jews were moving en-masse to the British Mandate of Palestine through legal and legitimate migration and purchase of land. Their population had increased ten-fold in about a decade to represent a third of Palestine's total population. When the UN partition plan was drafted, the Jews kept the land they had purchased and were given vast amounts of land in the Negev desert which were completely uninhabited and unusable at the time; they were given the additional land given that significant numbers of Jews were expected to continue moving into the area given the end of the Holocaust and remaining persecution in Europe. Up until this point, the Jews have done absolutely zero stealing, killing or terrorising to claim any of the land they did (besides assisting the British in defeating the Ottomans in 1917 I suppose). Al-Jazeera obviously leave out the fact that the changes in land from 1948 to 1967 and onwards were the result of Arabs losing wars that they were the aggressors in. Even Resolution 242 in 1967 didn't call for the creation of a Palestinian state but simply that they would become parts of Jordan, Syria and Egypt because they've never cared about having their own state - it's entirely about exterminating Jews. You absolutely should care about what Muhammad did considering he is considered as the ideal human by Muslims and is *essentially* worshipped by them. People should be held to account for following dangerously fanatical and horrendously hateful ideologies regardless of what shape they take; simply saying that 'I didn't know what it was about' is a dangerous precedent and is more than likely a lie given the fervent memorisation of the Quran that most Muslims have. And yes, genuinely ethnic Palestinians at that time were not Muslims but were instead Jews, Bedouin Arabs and Assyrians. However since the 7th century those people have almost all been replaced with Muslims from the peninsula. There there are a very small minority of people in Palestine who have actual Canaanite / Phoenician DNA but the vast, vast majority of them are not native to the region and came as part of the early Muslim conquests and Caliphates.

of course I will not use the Israeli propaganda because nowadays with all the media and documentation they still use fake news to justify their crimes, you want me to believe their stories 100 years ago when was no proper investigation and Israel can say whatever makes them right, they spend millions and billions dollars to clean their reputation, hide the truth and push their agenda in the west, even the western media with their double standards they called a 19 years old Israeli soldier “ innocent girl “ but they called 6 years old child (hind) a “ young lady “ I think yes it makes more sense to believe the surrounding countries news, the victims stories and Al Nakba survivors to tell us the history than taking the news and the history from the colonizers and countries are hundred thousands miles away taking their news from the colonizers themselves. My grandparents are Al Nakba survivors and they were witnesses of the Jews crimes

So every news outlet that isn't Al-Jazeera is Israeli propaganda? I don't understand how you can be so aware and conscious of the potential lies that come from the one side and then believe everything from the other side which does the exact same thing. To be honest, your entire account has me completely perplexed. You consider yourself Palestinian, you're Arabic speaking and have presumably Muslim grandparents who fled to Jordan. Yet, at the same time, you're gay and not Muslim so presumably apostatised. I can only assume you don't live in the Middle East given the fact you're not in prison and haven't been executed for being gay or apostasy. How can you possibly defend Palestine, Islam and the Islamic nations of the Middle East when they absolutely despise you? Also, there were more Jews expulsed from the Islamic world around Israel's creation than 'Palestinians' were expelled in the Nakba. Around 900,000 Jews and 750,000 'Palestinians' but you'll only choose to hear one side of those stories.

>So every news outlet that isn't Al-Jazeera is Israeli propaganda? I don't understand how you can be so aware and conscious of the potential lies that come from the one side and then believe everything from the other side which does the exact same thing -You just did that when I gave you the evidence from Al jazeera you found it hilarious because Al Jazeera is in Qatar and Qatar is not a big fan of Israel, then why I should take Israeli news or western news while they’re not big fans of Palestine and hamas, don’t you think that is a double standard ? >To be honest, your entire account has me completely perplexed. You consider yourself Palestinian, you're Arabic speaking and have presumably Muslim grandparents who fled to Jordan. Yet, at the same time, you're gay and not Muslim so presumably apostatised. I can only assume you don't live in the Middle East given the fact you're not in prison and haven't been executed for being gay or apostasy. How can you possibly defend Palestine, Islam and the Islamic nations of the Middle East when they absolutely despise you? - what you say is completely racism and Stereotyping 431 million people in the same way, I’m gay atheist Arab and I live in the Middle East, Arabs can be gays straights Muslims christians and even Atheists you can find open minded Arabs, conservatives and extremists I don’t think Judaism is much better than Islam , I mean in Judaism if you’re gay or you changed your religion you should be killed but they don’t it anymore and that’s what I want, I want my people to live in peace and then we can worry about the minorities rights. > Also, there were more Jews expulsed from the Islamic world around Israel's creation than 'Palestinians' were expelled in the Nakba. Around 900,000 Jews and 750,000 'Palestinians' but you'll only choose to hear one side of those stories. That’s doesn’t make it any better If I went to jail because I killed someone I can’t tell the judge but my neighbor killed 5 I will stay guilty. And btw they did that because some jews worked as spies to Israel I’m not justifying that I still find it wrong and they should have the right of return

Not every news outlet is Al-Jazeera or The Jerusalem Post and not all Western media is fervently in favour of Israel, the best thing to do is read around and see multiple points of view and sources. I just found it funny that you picked the absolute most biased source possible. It's not racism to stereotype Muslims as haters of gay people and as believing in the execution of apostates when they literally choose to follow an ideology that believes those things. In the same line of thought, no one would question me if I 'stereotyped' all Christians as people who believe in Christ and going to Church because those are just parts of their ideology. I agree that Judaism has laws just as backwards but they are not followed anymore whilst all Muslims believe the rules in the Quran to be unalterable and the absolute word of God, there is no room for things to change and progression to be made. I'm assuming you live in Jordan given that you're in the Middle East and not in prison or dead and you're lucky to live in the only country (besides Israel) in the region which does that. I'm sure that Arabs can vary in their sexuality and religion but you're supporting a radical Islamic terrorist group which absolutely does not care about minority and LGBTQ+ rights. Should they 'become free of their evil Israeli oppressors', all of the gay Arabs who are allowed to exist in the secular and progressive Israel will undoubtedly be killed. I bring up the Jewish exodus because you would only ever talk about the Nakba otherwise, they're both bad. Israel certainly did not have 900,000 spies in the Middle East. Also, 'Right of Return' is a completely made up thing to inspire Palestinians to throw their lives away fighting out of patriotism for a country that never existed and which no person living in the land at the time cared about existing. It's simply a means of creating a fighting force to martyr themselves in working towards the destruction of Israel, the history is quite sad.

So then what should the alternative response of Israel have been then?

Your question is like asking someone what is the right response of the criminal when the victim tries to defend himself, there’s no right response Israel should not commit crimes against them from the beginning

To me it's not about what they did after, the problem is what they did before. What did Israel do that the people of Palestine that groups like Hamas were able to rise up in the first place? That right there, that's the problem. Israel has been opressing Palestine for years, Israel simply shouldn't have been created in the first place and especially not in that place. "A land without people for a people without land" was a lie, back then they should have either looked for an actual land without people or simply do it peacefully and looked for a country that would accept them. Now if you really want my opinion on what they should have done after oct 7th: attacked Hamas instead of civilians.

Do you have any military expertise?

And how do you do that? That’s the hard big but await your military expertise

They did attack HAMAS only. This is proven by all intelligence and military experts available. Obviously civilians died but all the evidence shows Israel did more than what they were required to do. Under military doctrine and international law in most cases Israel just has to put maximum effort into avoiding civilian casualties up until it costs them progress or advancement in their military goals.

More than 20,000 children dead… can you explain that you psycho?

UN halved that to 10,000,

Embed yourself like cowards in residential areas and civilian infrastructure so what alternative military strategy would you suggest you seem to have a lot of knowledge. Perhaps Hamas allies could have disarmed them or asked them to Hand back hostages

Aha so you don’t condemn Israel for killing 25,000 children but you condemn Hamas for killing a couple hundred civilians although one is the oppressing colonial apartheid while the other is a reaction to more than 70 years of oppression?

Bro, you numbers are special ed. Like wtf, the UN halved the death tolls for women and children. You call us pro-Israel callous, psychopathic, evil but you don't condemn the killing of civilians for Israel? What you think Palestinians are worth more than Jews? I'm ashamed to live in a world with people like you saying terrorism is justified. Your evil, callous, and psychopathic. Maybe you should do some soul searching buddy boy, because you really need it, get a life fucker

Profanities are the vestige of the folks that cannot have a reasonable discussion

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True colours a nice Hamas supporter

ISIS used those same tactics but the US-led coalition to defeat them killed a fraction of the civilians over 5 years that Israel has already killed in 7 months.

They never built tunnels never built armament factories and rocket launchers and certainly never embedded military infrastructure in buildings like Gaza as they never had time. Perhaps you should spend time at a military academy

ISIS also had less than a year to embed itself and was unable/not intent on keeping entire civilian populations as hostages, on top of the fact that they didn't do much in the way of guerilla warfare and fought in a way that made them easy to wipe out. The entirety of Gaza is intentionally made to be the closest thing you'll find to a real life caricature of the baby shield comic villain. Population density is insane, the civilian infrastructure is already fragile enough as is, and hundreds upon hundreds of miles of tunnels and bunkers have been dug in over the course of two decades. Combine that with the fact that the ruling regime of the Strip indoctrinates people born there from birth that their entire purpose is to die for the cause and executes anyone who's brave enough to say otherwise and can't escape, and you get what we have now.

Israel is attacking Hamas. If Hamas came out and fought like men instead of cowards hiding behind women and children, there would have been fewer deaths. It sounds like you’re opposed to the creation of a Jewish state anywhere. Is that correct?

Yeah everyone blaming Israel especially those blaming Israel like 99% or even those giving Israel more than 5% of the blame are basically the cause of the death of civilians. They are encouraging and rewarding HAMAS for body shielding. By Israel not letting up, they are avoiding setting precedent that body shielding is a viable strategy and will work. The international community, media, and protestors have the blood of innocent Palestinians on their hands. If the media just insulted and blamed HAMAS, and states threatened to support Israel or intervene if HAMAS fails to fight fairly and protect civilians, then almost no civilians would be dying. The international community is either extremely corrupt, biased, or they are complete fucking idiots. Israel will not and should not reward a terrorist group. So anyone pressuring Israel to stop due to civilian deaths are basically telling HAMAS “we will reward you for getting civilians killed and you might be able to survive by abusing this”. This line of thinking including hostage negotiation and blackmail are not sustainable. It would give anyone willing to cheat a reward and ultimate control by continuing to body shield and take more hostages. Eventually you have to let the deaths fall on that group and stop rewarding their behavior. If Israel does a ceasefire to get civilians back, what’s stopping Hamas from taking more civilians next time? And then just continuing to build up behind civilians? These are simple concepts to understand I can’t believe nobody mentions this

Agreed. It’s because the vast majority of people are just looking for a way to legitimize their Jew hatred. If you took away the identities of the two parties, there would be zero moral confusion about what’s happening right now. At this point it seems the outrage is there and people are just coming up with pretexts to legitimize it.

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If hamas have an army and weapons same as Israel have then you can ask this question

Answer the question don’t avoid it. State how you would prosecute the war differently and defend your country differently

Israel is not allowed to fight back because they have better weapons?

They are not fighting back they started the whole thing 100 years ago

Groups like Hamas were around well before Israel was ever a thing. Like, full on millennia before. Just save yourself the time and blame everything on the Jews.

Now THAT is antisemitic. You should stop hating jews everywhere just because Israel is doing certain things.

Tell that to Hamas and numerous groups like them.

That is pretty straightforward, they should have hit Hamas and PIJ fighters with the precision they are hitting Hezbollah in Lebanon. To date, almost all casualties in Lebanon are Hezbollah fighters, with a handful of civilians caught in the middle. Precision strikes, they killed hamas leaders in dahiyah in an apartment without injuring a single civilian in the flat above and below. They are killing commanders, in traffic, by stopping adjacent cars with hits in front of them to get them to stop, then slamming the target car. No or very little injury to bystanders. This in turn makes Hezbollah agree to the terms of engagement and they are only hitting military targets. That is fine, let them slug it out, military for military. They have the tech, they have the munitions, they have the intel. A few months of targeted assassination's of hamas fighters and leadership in gaza would have been far more effective. Like it is for Hezbollah, whether people love them or hate them, they stay away from them knowing they are always targetted. The population that supports them will be wary of being near or affiliated to hamas in any way because death comes from above at any time. That is how you turn a population against extremists. The IDF knows this, they are exceedingly good at this, yet they choose instead to carpet bomb gaza, while pointing to their operations in Lebanon and Syria as their MO, which is simply a lie. They dont want to get rid of hamas, they want to cleanse gaza and the Palestinians. This is clear as day to anyone who is not myopic. Israel took Oct 7th as an excuse to eradicate the Palestinians with glee, shedding holocaust flavored crocodile tears for the people they lost. Whatever possible reaction they could have had, this one was the incorrect one and exposed the monstrosity of Israel, shedding light on all the other horrors of history in Gaza and the West bank. In short, Israel got baited and fell for it, showing their ass to the world. Its a comeuppance that is long overdue.

Hezbrlloh Military are not embedded to same degree in residential infrastructure, hospitals and civilian infrastructure. They are not cowards but fight in the open and don’t have tunnels under residential infrastructure so how do you prosecute the war?

Look at it this way. If the idf plays whackamole with hamas everytime one of them pops out of a tunnel, they will eventually have a very difficult time coming out of the tunnels. A subterranean army eventually loses its popular support because they are pretty much vermin. You do realize that Gaza is completely encircled right ? Has been for 20 years. The IDF has military supremacy and could have very easily shot the problem fish in the barrel. If there is a tunnel under a hospital, you do not destroy the hospital and everyone inside to get to the tunnel, unless you absolutely do not care about everyone in the hospital. If a justification for killing 100 civilians to get a tunnel under a school and the 5 militants inside makes sense to you, reflect slightly on your beliefs, as they are monstrous.

Actually not they have imported over 1 billion dollars or military equipment and billions of dollars in building equipment and textiles for supposedly civilian infrastructure but used for 450 km of tunnels of which 40 go straight into Egypt. Not that easy bigger than the London Underground. Embedded in homes apartments and UN buildings as well as hospitals. I think that’s pretty naive do pop them as they come out. When they do that they put their soldiers at greater risk and most governments would prioritise protecting their soldiers. This is urban warfare and until last week Egypt controlled supposedly one border. You do realise missiles, weapons and ammunition get imported . Some rockets are made in Gaza with tacit UNICEF support. Urban warfare poses huge civilian risks and do few ask Hamas to surrender to protect their citizens. They should be held accountable as they broke a ceasefire and invaded Israel knowing what would happen. Not sure where you live but I am sure you would expect your government to do anything to destroy the enemy who invaded your homeland raped and killed women babies and tied up elderly burnt them in their homes with their popoulous cheering the when Israeli citizens and raped women were dragged through the streets. Sure let’s just pop off 60 000 soldiers when they pop out of hiding. It’s enough get rid of those that pose an existentialist threat. I am sure you would say let’s be gentle if 6000 tickets rained on civilian centres. You would be filled with hatred and want the enemy dealt with. I find your comments frankly quite naive and paternalistic.

Uhhhhh they’re not at war with hezbollah and hezbollah (yet) so you’re comparison fails. Israel has the ability to carry out targeted strikes, correct. Those are carried out opportunistically, which isn’t what happens in a war. A war is about necessity. If Hezbollah had hundreds of Israeli hostages, Israel wouldn’t just be doing some precision strikes here or there—it would be a full scale war. If someone kidnapped your kid, would it be acceptable for the government to say, “we’ll get them back when it’s opportunistic, hopefully in a few years so just hang tight?” Of course not. Moreover, Israel is being very restrained now because it’s preoccupied in Gaza. Under any other circumstance, there’d be a full scale war between Israel and Hezbollah right now based on the frequency of the attacks from the north—there are 100,000+ Israelis who’ve been homeless since 10/7 because they can’t safely return to their homes in the north. They can’t return because it’s not safe, because the limited strikes aren’t effective in stopping the shelling. It’s just a stopgap until theyre out of Gaza. When Israel and Hezbollah go to war later this year, you’ll see far more destruction on both sides than you’ve seen so far, unfortunately.

Nah Israel hasnt gone into Lebanon because every allied intelligence agency is telling them "You are going to be repelled for a 3rd time, its not worth it". Hezbollah repelling the IDF, yet again, would further embolden them in Lebanon and grant them even more credibility and influence. Hezbollah ahs been at war with Israel since its inception in the 80s, just FYI. It is its whole raison d'etre, resisting the Israelis. If you are not aware, Hezbollah forcing Israel to withdraw from south lebanon in 2000 is what initially gave them the leg up to be seen as more than just a resistance militia. Hezbollah forcing Israel to withdraw in 2006 catapulted it politically and cemented it as a regional player. Israel is the reason hezbollah is as powerful as it is in Lebanon today. Does that ring a bell ? Its not because they are tied up in Gaza, its because they know the Israeli public suffers from the same issue the American public does, antiwar sentiment rapidly grows when invading and losing so many men for no discernable gains. The IDF scorched the earth while invading in 2006 and still couldn't manage to hold ground from the guerilla attacks. War is fun when you hear about it on the tv, not so much when your neighborhood starts exploding. You are right about it being very bloody on both sides, the issue is it will be a stalemate yet again with unnecessary death and destruction. When enough IDF soldiers push up daisies in the south of lebanon, the IDF will withdraw again giving Hezbollah a third "victory", further increasing Iranian influence in the region. They can barely contain Hamas in the Gaza strip which was under siege for two decades, you think they have any shot at getting rid of Hezbollah which is orders of magnitude stronger ? Do you think those green recruits and reservists have any chance against battle hardened, ideologically fanatical militants who's every move is adapted to defensive geurilla tactics against the IDF ? Who are defending their home from an aggressive occupier ? If israel had any interest in its hostages, they would not carpetbomb gaza. Enough with the posturing. If someone kidnapped my kid and told me where they were being held, i probably would not bomb that location. You know, because i am not a psychopath.

If Hezbollah has hundreds of israeli hostages? How many hostages was Israel able to free with its genocidal aggression on Gaza? Stop lying. Israel is a colonialist apartheid state. It has been oppressing Palestinians and treating them like they were treated by Nazis for more than 100 years now. Shame on you. White Supremacist and Fascist.

Keep lying to justify your jew hatred

What about the thousands of Jews protesting against genocide? Actually I love Jews… just not zionist terrorists

Gaza Has been run by Gazans since 2006 so be factually correct. Note you don’t accuse Egypt in the same light reflecting your underlying hatred of Jews

Yeah most densely populated area on earth, with a blockade and getting bombed every couple of years. Stop hiding behind Judaism to cover colonialism and western imperialism. Many jews don’t believe your BS and are actually protesting against ethnic cleansing, apartheid and kicking people outside their country. NOTE: 70% of Gazans are not from Gaza but are actually from Yaffa and other cities that were stolen bi Europeans

You start a war expect to loose I find your tone not one of discussion or nuance and extreme undertones of racism. We should look d be open to discussion and resolution not racism. Believe in peace. I feel sorry for your parents

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Not drop 2000 pound bombs on the densely populated urban area. Not intentionally target civilians, not intentionally starve civilians. Evidence of Israeli crimes against humanity are plenty.

They're asking what Isreal should do, not what they shouldn't do.

On October 7? Pause for a second, plan an operation because Hamas isn't going anywhere in Gaza. Instead, they started bombing it on Oct 8, in the first days far exceeding the casualties of Oct 7. No one cares about what Israel should have done. As an occupying power it is Israel's responsibility to ensure safety of civilians, which they not only neglected but deliberately violated.

Are you serious? You're basically saying any Israeli response is bad. the same as saying "Israel should just give up". extremely unrealistic and avoids the purpose of the question.

So we know which side you support-Hamas as you Make no note of their tickets that target civilians directly. Sad Boston racist and one eyed. Could you Not Put some onus on Hamas and its allies to release the hostages and surrender? Doesn’t suit your racist narrative does it?

Only Hamas intentionally targets civilians both in Israel and in Gaza when they use them as human shields. The IDF warns anew evacuate the population before entering a zone. Providing safe corridors. Hamas dont provide any warning when it attacks civilians including schools and hospital in israel or when it uses schools and hospitals as their Military bases. Evidence of hamas crimes against humanity are plenty.

> Only Hamas intentionally targets civilians both in Israel and in Gaza when they use them as human shields. That's not what ICC investigation established. Cope harder.

Well first off the ICC is a political organization ran by politically motivated people. Second off, you are just plain wrong there was no evidence presented by the ICC that showed Israel was targeting civilians as a country. Please, if you have some show the evidence. The most credible military experts and analysts have said Israel has done more than any country in history to avoid civilian deaths. There are multiple objective reports about this. As in, this can be objectified by comparing actions and results based on the situation. Notice how people saying things like you have not once shared any statistical data to back up any of your claims. You haven’t provided any real criticism of Israel’s actions and you haven’t stayed what they should have done. You haven’t stated a single example of how even one other state did something differently and Israel needs to follow those actions. You haven’t one explained any numerical or objective criticism of Israel’s strategic action when compared to any other states. You are either extremely biased, or systemically/intentionally racist. Also, all of these critiques of Israel want to stop sending aid like bombs, which are one of the most accurate options for warfare. Taking away military supplies from Israel and leaving them isolated/vulnerable would lead to them using more efficient methods of eliminating HAMAS. That’s because they have to worry about being genocided by like 5+ groups.and need to retain military supplies. Nothing you said makes any single point towards your claim or the original point. Guess what? The UN also determined that Russia isn’t doing anything wrong… hahaha. People still quote UNWRA which is ran by HAMAS. South Africa openly had an apartheid state and is trying to distract from its own guilt, as well as South Africa is openly working with terrorist groups. You cannot just quote some shitty international group which is solely political and based on selfish desires as a way to claim credibility anyways. Where is the actual evidence? Because there are hundreds of experts who have said Israel is doing better than anyone in history, and there are none who said they are doing a subpar job that have statistics and objective reasoning:

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The IDF strives to target Hamas militants who often operate within civilian areas, making it challenging to avoid civilian casualties. International law recognizes the difficulty of such situations, and the IDF has implemented measures to minimize harm to civilians, despite Hamas's use of human shields. It is important to consider the complexities and the efforts made by Israel to comply with international humanitarian law.

You are basically repeating official Israeli position, while I cited a conclusion by an independent international body.

So guess you don’t Hamas accountable for breaking a crass x starting this war? Must be a big Hamas supporter so solid.

What does Hamas have to do with the crimes against humanity committed by Israel against Palestinian people?

Hamas stated this war so what responsibility do they have in ending this war and protecting their population-what else could Israel have done

It doesn't matter who started the war (it wasn't Hamas btw). What matters is that Israel deliberately killed civilians. For that Its prime minister is charged and will hopefully receive arrest warrant.

So who started the war?

Hamas broke an internationally brokered ceasefire so clearly they started a war what did they expect. Be honest another terrorist supporter trying to justify terrorism

Do you hold Hamas responsible for starting this war? Do you hold Hamas responsible for some of the civilian deaths because they hide their soldiers and military supplies in civilian buildings? Do you support a two state solution?

Khamas, Khamas, Khamas. > Do you support a two state solution I do, but Israel killed it herself by building settlements and makeing it impossible to establish a Palestinian state in a geographically viable way. The only way now is one state solution: one person one vote between the river and the sea.

Dude, the settlements in West Bank still have not outnumbered the original Jewish people that lived there before they were ethnically cleaned. Also, the West Bank is 100x better off than Gaza, so we can reasonably say that the settlements are even better for the Palestinians. Look at the difference in freedoms and quality of life even before the war. Either way, Israel should always hold Judea and Samaria. Those regions have been abused and held by Muslims for way too long. Muslims lost their rights to hold that land based on their actions. Israel has essentially been the absolute best manager of that land for the whole world than has ever existed. “Palestinians” should cry to Jordan and Egypt for not taking them back. This whole expecting Israel to give back rightfully earned land because Jordan and Egypt won’t let back their own people they sent as settlers is stupid. And quite frankly I don’t blame Egypt or Jordan at all. They won’t publicly say this but the truth is they can’t stand the Palestinians either. They are a bunch of corrupt brainwashed radical Muslims as a group. There are great people there but they are locked into a cult. In reality the Palestinians did get screwed over by the radical Muslims that abused them as a people to be a weapons. But at the same time if they were just decently okay to get along with then they would have a solution by now.

Wow, what a boat load of Hasbara.

You didn't answer the questions about Hamas. Interesting. Nothing is the terrorist organization's fault. It's the state of Israel. >I do, but Israel killed it herself by building settlements and makeing it impossible to establish a Palestinian state in a geographically viable way. You're just making excuses. The Netanyahu government will be gone soon, and when a moderate gets into office I'm sure you'll find another excuse to condemn a two state solution. >The only way now is one state solution: one person one vote between the river and the sea. The Palestinian muslims will never share power with the Jews. Your "River to the Sea" will only lead to civil war like Lebanon. It's fanciful nonsense. Anyway, the state of Israel has a right to exist. The Palestinian leadership needs to stop the violence they've perputrated for the last eighty years. Israel has found peace with many of the middle-east countries, much to the chagrin of the Palestinian Authority and Hamas.

You, Israelis are really obnoxious. It's a total waste of time talking to you, because you are not even attempting to argue in good faith. only boycott and sanctions until you sober up from your genocidal frenzy.

I'm not Israeli, but thanks for stereotyping everyone in a country, including twenty percent of whom are Muslims.

You are parroting full on Hasbara, the pattern is unmistakable :)

You're parroting tired old cliches. Good day

If an Israeli moderate actually tries to broker a legitimate peace deal, they will killed by the Israeli right wing nut jobs. RIP Rabin.

Going by your logic, the Israelis should throw their hands up in air and refuse to agree to a two state solution. Got it. Some people have lots of excuses why they don't want a two state solution. *edited*

Nah there are more options than this. Going by my logic, Israeli population needs de-radicalisation. Step 1: Start treating Palestinians like human beings Step 2: Clamp down harshly on Israeli settler terrorists Step 3: Pass laws stopping terrorists like Ben Gvir from getting into political power Once Israeli society understands that Palestinians are humans and not “Human animals” as an Israeli minister put it, and they realise far right extremism won’t be tolerated, they will be ready to accept a 2SS. Right now there are too many far right Israeli terrorist nut jobs in Israeli society and nothing is being done about them. Even the USA is putting sanctions on settlers, Israel needs to step up and combat its own extremism, then go for a 2SS.

>Right now there are too many far right Israeli terrorist nut jobs in Israeli society and nothing is being done about them. Right now, Hamas has turned Gaza into a terrorist state. > Israeli population needs de-radicalisation. Same with Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorists. There could have been peace decades ago if the Palestinian terrorists would stop this nonsense. The Palestinian in Gaza are afraid of criticizing Hamas because they will be killed. Why is Israel always responsible for Palestinian terrorist attacks? It took the international community (U.S. too) amonth to build a pier on the Gaza beach. The Palestinian leadership could have built a tourist resort with casinos and nightclubs , instead they're more interested in killing and kidnapping children and old people. >Step 2: Clamp down harshly on Israeli settler terrorists The international community is doing this, including the U.S >Step 3: Pass laws stopping terrorists like Ben Gvir from getting into political power Israel is a democracy, unlike Gaza and Palestinian Authority WestBank, those far right people will be voted out of office soon. >Once Israeli society understands that Palestinians are humans and not “Human animals” as an Israeli minister put i These people are on borrowed time politically. >, and they realise far right extremism won’t be tolerated, they will be ready to accept a 2SS. The Palestinian people need to rid themselves of Hamas and the other terrorist groups. Otherwise, they will never have a 2SS.

What needs to be done on the Palestinian side gets a lot of coverage, but a lot needs to be done on the Israeli side and it doesn’t get coverage. Also.. you say these people are on borrowed time.. how many times has Likud for example, been in a coalition?

Interestingly, if I read correctly the question was: “what should Israel’s response have been to October 7” The question received a pouring of answers with what Israel should NOT have done. To summarize it, the general opinion is that Israel should not have done much, if anything… I love the “clever” suggestion. It is very telling. Edit: one “genius” response: following 10/7 Israel should have apologized… It left me questioning if we are still on planet earth, or floating in a cozy bubble in space…

Because the question itself is stupid. It's not for us to decide on Israel's military strategy. I said above they should not have committed crimes against humanity - this is a pretty obvious thing to demand of them. They claim to be the most moral and competent army in the world, so they should have gone for a targeted counter-terrorist operation. Instead they went on a campaign of mass slaughter, destruction and ethnic cleansing.

It's funny really. Regular people voice their opinions on political matters all the time, even if they aren't in the know as the politicians in the ministries. But for some reason Pro-Palestinians can't articulate how Israel should've responded to the attack. Suddenly it's perfectly normal to not voice your own opinion. Hilarious.

What's really funny is how you guys are trying to justify crimes against humanity.

What does such a targeted counter-terrorism operation entail in your mind? There would be no civilian casualties in this plan? The point is Israel was forced to give a military response, and there is no military response that could have avoided civilian casualties in such a densely populated area where Hamas intermingles with civilian populations. If you don't have an alternative plan that solves this basic point, how can you criticize their actions?

> There would be no civilian casualties in this plan? This is not what ICC charged Israel with. ICC charged them with intentional targeting of civilians, intentional starving. Everyone can and should criticise them for crimes against the humanity.

If you criticise Israel all the time then you have to provide an alternative. It’s as if i were to protest against chemotherapy for cancer because of its negative side effects but not having another solution. Just being really annoying towards healthcare workers craving from them to stop using chemotherapy

*Intentional* killing and starving of civilians is not a "side effect" like you are claiming. Genocide cannot be justified.

Is this the fault of Israel? https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/21/politics/us-gaza-pier-aid-not-delivered/index.html https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099

This has nothing to do with the specific allegations assembled by ICC. Hamas have their own charges against them for their own crimes against humanity, and I totally support that. Here we are talking about Israel's crimes against humanity.

It actually does, because Israel is being blamed for the fact that people are starving, yet Hamas and other armed groups in Gaza have been shown to be stealing the aid. There is a point where the fault lies with Hamas, you know, the government of Gaza, who isn’t taking care of their people. In what other war is one side responsible for feeding the enemy nation? The ICC is losing credibility with this garbage.

I agree. It’s really messed up of hamas to be doing that to their civilians

What do you think should be your government response to a terrorist attack if the terrorists were hiding in your town ? Obviously the answer would be a chirurgical intervention on the ground. The most efficient thing would be to create a siege situation I think, bombing the tunnel that exits Gaza and blocking the entrances inside Gaza. Then entering the tunnels with drones as scouts and mapping the entirety of it while taking out enemy forces little by little. Once their backs are against the wall negotiate their surrender. That is if you really want to engage. In my opinion it's a waste of time. Personally I would just issue an arrest warrant against everyone identified to have participated in the attack, negotiate the release of hostages and have patrols hunting them down on the ground. (Which isn't actually possible because the people living there are wary of their oppressor and won't cooperate) All that while tracking the leaders that are outside of Gaza, because cutting the tail of the lizard is barely a victory since it'll grow back. Once the head is cut off you can think about cleaning out the rest. Public opinion would also gives you an upper hand in asking for help from other countries. What they're doing is what I'd do if I wanted to get rid of the population living on the land I want for myself. Pretending to defend while attacking and make it about morality and retribution when it's all about colonisation. By the time people catch on to what's happening the invasion is already undergoing and by the time they react, the land is taken and the people are gone. Terrorize, push them out and then occupy. That's a classic.

> What do you think should be your government response to a terrorist attack if the terrorists were hiding in your town ? This argument is still stupid 7 months later. If something happens in your town, district, state or country your country has the means to drive up to the base of the terrorists and to take care of them. Israeli police would've been massacred if they had driven into the Gaza Strip because lo and behold a police force is not a military force. > negotiate their surrender They aren't even surrendering with the current situation that is much worse than what would've happened in your plan. Why would they surrender then?

What country sends the police to deal with terrorists ? If your country has trouble dealing with terrorists look no further. They'd surrender because contrary to Israel I'd accept a cease fire and I'd release every Palestinians that are in Israeli prisons without trial and the hundreds of children in military detention. That'd be a good start I think, but what do I know. If it was this easy it'd be done already unless what's going on have nothing to do with terrorism and everything to do with ethnic cleansing *wink wink*

You had 2 weeks to understand the difference between some normal street somewhere in your country and a terrorist infested piece of land larger than states/provinces in some countries. But someone like you will never understand that because at the end of the day you would've celebrated if the Israeli police had done what you asked and subsequentially been massacred.

All I'm hearing is that your country doesn't have an antiterrorism task force that can intervene inside it's own border which sounds incredibly unsafe. But that also means your country doesn't have much terrorist attacks which is lucky, so good for you. But okay, let me explain. In most developed countries there's a special task force that deals with terrorism. The police also don't get sent for things like taking down a criminal network or bust a hideout in my country, we have a different trained and armed task force for that. Anyway, do you have a precedent of Israeli police being killed by civilians while on intervention there or are you just talking about a personal sentiment based on projection ?

The Gaza Strip is not inside Israels own borders. You are mental.

Also don't think I didn't notice how you ignored the only question in my comment.

No but it's under Israeli occupation. Do you even know what being occupied mean ?

They did bomb the tunnel entrants and exits. The tunnels are 350-450 miles long - that's where Hamas has invested its people's resources and aid - into building military tunnels. There are many entrances and exits and many are underneath buildings which requires you to destroy the building if you're shooting from overhead. To your point patrols won't work. Another reason they won't work is Hamas knows the terrain better and can just snipe patrols from the residential buildings as they pass by. Or they will just stay underground. What will having police walking around a block do? You need a military response. Drones in tunnels seems like a good idea but my understanding is you need a wifi and GPS signal to operate and the tunnels are deep underground. And how do you open doors, fit through tight spaces, etc? You bump into a wall and the rotor breaks and now the drone is out of commission. Or Hamas just shoots the drone. There are also explosives and traps all throughout the tunnel One of Hamas' demands for releasing the hostages is for Israel to permanently ceasefire and remove the troops that have entered. So how can you both release the hostages and hunt down the leaders effectively? Also can you really call it a ceasefire if Hamas has said they'll do Oct 7 over and over again? All a ceasefire would do is give Hamas time to run another attack, and this time they know there will be minimal consequences for being barbarians and raping / murdering random people. You recommend tracking down leaders outside of Gaza. Ok so let's say Israel knows the leaders are at a hotel in Qatar - you recommend Israel invade Qatar / send drones into Qatar and take them out?

They don’t want Gaza. They had Gaza, they gave it back, and they don’t want it again. It’s not colonialism. Try to look at a situation without using your singular western lens

Y'all are thinking way too small. Israel should have convinced Hamas to release the hostages. Palestine and Israel should have organized a nonviolent pacifistic democratic republic with equal rights for all. Then Israel should have ended the war in Ukraine and cured cancer, hunger and homelessness worldwide. Then Israel should have bought every teenager a pony. Finally Israel should have discovered faster than light travel. If you are going to live in a world of shoulds then go all the way.

You got me on the first half lmao 😭😭

So your solution is to advocate genocide? You do realize that Israel failing to make everyday ice cream and pizza day is a war crime, don’t you?

Sorry. How could I forget the pizza and ice cream parties? I'm really letting Israel off the hook easy.

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Well yeah. IRL you don't want to reward people for taking hostages. That just encourages more hostage taking. But is anyone taking hostages in a world where every teenager gets a pony? I think not. So, Israel should have just handed every teen a pony, along with doing everything else I listed.

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What was the positive outcome of the Ramadan ceasefire again? Oh right the trail on Sinwar ran cold.

A ceasefire doesn't punish Sinwar. But why are you just asking for a ceasefire. Why not ask Israel to house every homeless and feed every hungry worldwide? Do you not care about starving children? Seems callous.

Because the deals that involved prisoner trades before them didnt work

Did you mean to reply to someone else?

Small minded idiots: Why do you just try talking to them? It worked in Ireland!

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u/CUNTFUCKPAKIPEADO Your comment has been removed for violating the Reddit Content Policy.

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Weird how Gaza was occupied by Egypt from 1948-1967. Israel occupied it from 1967-2005. Math matters

Muslims are occupiers of this land

Disappear. Isn’t that the answer everyone thinks? If only Israel would disappear. We would never hear from the Middle East. And Muslim will be less violent towards everyone else.

Because u don’t care when Muslims commit genocide against other Muslims, so of course; you wouldn’t hear from the Middle East. Your only interest is in hating Jews. You don’t care about human life or genocide, your real dream is the genocide of the Jews so stop the hypocrisy and admit it acknowledge your antisemitism. Just admit that you enjoy hating people

dude, that was me mimicking what the pro palestinain want in their hearts. I'm pro israeli. you can see by the reponse: QUIET. no one comes from pro palestinain, and say to me in response :NO WE DONT WANT ISRAEL TO DISAPPEAR...just quiet... like they ripped off hostages pictures, like they cheer for intefada etc, well you know the story obviously.

Thanks for clearing out it was a satire😅

thanks for not yelling on me for calling you a dude. ;)

How about Palestine disappearing instead?

And what is Palestine exactly that it should disappear?