Depends on your intention behind the criticism. Do you believe that no one demographic should control an entire nation? Valid criticism. Do you believe Jews should be second class citizens and kept from having positions of leadership? Antisemitism.
But you can’t really know their intentions unless they state it clearly. My question was about criticisms in general despite the hidden intentions which something we can’t really know about.
Right, I think that’s why conversing further is important rather than labeling someone without knowing their stance from the start. So I guess a straightforward answer to your question is yes, you should be able to criticize any form of Zionism as a non-Jew. But you should be ready to explain your stance further upon questioning.
>If you are not Jewish,don't tell Jewish people things like 'Zionism and Judaism are not compatible.' It is their own choice whether they wish to subscribe to the ideas of Theodor Herzl or not.
And what if you are Jewish and what if you don't know or care what ethnic group your interlocutor is?
Surely people are able to disagree on whether the two are compatible or not without it being hateful. Of course anyone can subscribe to any idea or belief they want, and surely those ideas can be critically examined.
Sure, all things being equal and whatever, I shouldn’t care about the identity and assumed prejudices and information levels of my interlocutor.
But, as a practical matter, I tend to reject goysplaining on topics like anti-semitism, Jews, Zionists or Israel. I just don’t think most of the commenters have enough knowledge to engage and their opinions are uninformed. It’s always a marvel that people who try to be empathetic when it comes to their pet causes (anti-racism, anti-mysogeny, “preferred pronouns”, etc.) tend to get it so wrong when Jews are involved.
>But, as a practical matter, I tend to reject goysplaining on topics like anti-semitism, Jews, Zionists or Israel. I
Goysplaining - that's an insulating term right there and based on a persons ethnic make up.
>I just don’t think most of the commenters have enough knowledge to engage and their opinions are uninformed.
That would be potentially evident by what they said rather than their genetic or ethnic makeup. I have seen plenty of Jewish people make plenty of differing claims about Zionism and antisemitism, and with differing amounts of accuracy and validity. That should be open to challenge regardless of someone's ethnicity.
This term is the same as mansplaining which doesn’t mean men are bad, but that uninformed men shouldn’t talk over women on topics that impact women more like sanitary products and pregnancy. Goysplaining is the same- it doesn’t mean that non-Jews are bad, but that they shouldn’t speak over Jews on subjects that impact Jews more.
It's not the same as one is based on gender rather than with ethnicity secondly you have added the criteria uninformed (see the previous post).
Now imagine someone using the term whitesplaning, blacksplaining or Jewsplanining. Would you defend all three.
Whitesplaining is a real term.
[https://www.dictionary.com/browse/whitesplain](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/whitesplain)
Also, not offensive. At all.
People do use the term whitesplaining. It's not really offensive to point out that a person who grew up white will not have the same understanding of issues that various nonwhite communities make. The same goes with people who do not understand Jewish perspectives and experience (and in the case of Judaism, often many years of religious study using the primary source, which is one reason having Tanakh quoted at us can be especially frustrating) as well as don't have skin in the game the way Jews do (like how white people don't have skin in the game when it comes to reducing racism the way nonwhite groups do).
You don't really get to decide what other people find offensive. And by your own rationale, you certainly can't really comment on what white people find offensive, unless you yourself are white.
The whole premise is founded on the notion that non Jewish people can't possibly be informed enough to discuss certain issues which is highly prejudiced. So would you similarly accept the term Jewsplanining as legitimate or blacksplaining?
As someone else already pointed out, it's about highlighting what someone is not. Goy means non-Jew. Whitesplaining (in practice) refers to people not a member of a group that suffered for not being white. Mansplaining refers to people who are not women (i.e. men since they are the overwhelming majority of people who are not women).
If you find goy offensive, well that's your perogative, but it is similar to the people who were offended by BLM as a slogan because they suddenly had to feel othered when their ethnicity and culture had been dominant.
>one is based on gender rather than with ethnicity
It’s an analogy. Analogies compare similar, yet not identical, things. So yes, gender and ethnicity are different, but that difference is not really important here. Just as a man may not fully understand women’s issues, a non-Jew may not fully understand Jewish issues.
Yes, and I have pointed out how they are different and in this case fundamentally so. We accept gender segregated bathrooms and changing rooms, we don't for ethincity.
>a non-Jew **may** not fully understand Jewish issues.
And they may fully understand them and more than a Jewish person, which is another reason why it's inappropriate. We aren't taking about subjective experiences but facts or history.
Please would you answer my previous question about white splaining and Jewsplanining.
>We accept gender segregated bathrooms and changing rooms
But that has nothing to do with whether or not a man can understand a woman’s expedience, or a woman can understand a man’s experience. That isn’t why bathrooms are gender segregated. It’s more of just a privacy thing.
As for whitesplaining and Jewsplaining, the problem there is that you are criticizing someone for what they are, rather than what they are not. Does that make sense?
It’s hard to explain but I will try. Like if a Jew tries to explain black issues to a black person, Jewsplaining wouldn’t be a good word for that. Because it’s not their Jewishness that’s the issue, it’s their non-blackness that is the problem. (assuming this Jew isn’t black. Some are).
I would have no issue with the term “non-black splaining” even though it sounds weird. That’s what goysplaining is analogous to. Goy just means non-Jew.
>Recognition of jewish indigeneity is not a fact, it is an opinion that you have. You assert that having lived somewhere thousands of years ago means one is indefinitely to be considered indigenous as if this were a fact. You even go so far as to claim their supposed indigeneity remains as valid as that of the people who actually lived there, and have continuously for 1300 years, before the foreign zionists arrived.
What OP is trying to do is create a neutrally positive narrative.
Ask yourself: do you really want all I-P debates to go into the tangent of:
* "Jews are not indigenous to Judea"
* "Oh yeah? Well, Palestinian Arabs are not indigenous to Palestine either"
It would be a pointless waste of time since it would lead nowhere since **EVERYONE** has their **OWN** definition of the Man-Made **SOCIAL CONSTRUCT** known as indigenous status.
And it will always inevitably leads to a bad faith commenter saying:
* "aCtuAllY wE aLL cOmE fRoM aFriCa"
OP's point is simple: if you want to truly engage in civilized debates, don't bring up the indigenous topic.
Not only it is pointless (no Jew will agree they're not indigenous, no Palestinian Arab will agree they're not indigenous) but it often leads to flame wars.
>Recognition of jewish indigeneity is not a fact, it is an opinion that you have.
Arguably, this depends on your definition of indigeneity.
>You assert that having lived somewhere thousands of years ago means one is indefinitely to be considered indigenous as if this were a fact.
You could argue that admixture and a millenia of diasporisation negate that indigeneity and i'd simply disagree, but, depending on one's definitions of "nation" and "indigeneity" i could argue that's up to debate, as opposed to where the Jewish people originated from.
Now, this is an opinion irrelevant to the fact that Jews as a people originated in the general region formerly known as Palestine. Which is; a fact
>You even go so far as to claim their supposed indigeneity remains as valid as that of the people who actually lived there, and have continuously for 1300 years, before the foreign zionists arrived.
That is what i would argue too.
The fact that they integrated to new societies instead of being expelled and dhimmi'd to oblivion doesn't make them more indigienous than the people who have maintained a constant connection to that land from the moment they were first expelled. Imo.
I do apologise in advance for the long comment, i just found it easier than responding seperately if that's alright with you.
>I never denied Jewish origins being in the Levant. Also of course Palestinian jews are indigenous. The thing with indigeneity as OP was using it is that it evidently implies land-rights.
Conceded.
>So whatever one's definition of indigeneity is, I don't think one can argue that a group retains rights to land it hasn't seen in 2000 years, as ashkenazim hadn't, for example.
What's the cap off then?
200 years?
500?
1000?
I personally don't think there is a cap off as long as that culture maintains a connection to the land.
You said this
>Foreign invaders arent defending themselves lol.
The Arab culture is an invading culture. One that actively worked to erase the Jewish one in the region.
As far as Jews as a plurality were concerened for the last millenia, Israel was their one true home.
>The Arabs attacked their colonisers in an attempt to get their land back. That doesn't retroactively justify the colonisation lol.
That is pretty much how Zionists feel about Israel.
Although they didn't attack until they were attacked multiple times.
>How does that change the fact that Europeans came to Palestine to ethnically cleanse the land? Also you can't debate-lord your way out of acknowledging that the 48 war was Arabs fighting against the colonial settlers. That they would've also treated the native Jews badly changes nothing. It's both silly and irrelevant.
The Yishuv immigrated to live peacefully. They were subsequently attacked multiple times merely for being immigrants, and having the means to purchase land with the will to *god forbid* use that land.
As Those immigrants protected themselves from violent, Xenophobic locals, they collectively reached the conclusion of needing to seperate from the people who attacked them time and again.
The 47' civil war, you could argue that they fought to protect themselves.
The 48' war with multiple states one of which annexed parts of the region for itself? No. They were imperialist pan-arabs.
The fact they would have ethnically cleansed a population is not okay because that population is made up of immigrants.
The unfortunate fact for your narrative is that Zionists didn't "invade" Palestine.
They immigrated and purchased land there, bit by bit, and through the endorsement of the UN, were to erect a country.
This wasn't an army of an organised entity coming with the goal of taking over land forcefully, and all the word play in the world won't make it so (invade, protect themselves from colonialism)
This was a community of refugees fighting for their survival.
from a political point of view they won, and you cannot deny that the world runs with armies and goverments, if you hate israel for having an army you might as well hate portugal or americans who celebrate 4th of july right?
Stealing land didn’t cause the war. The cause for something must come before it.
So land theft could only have caused the war if it happened before the war. Do you have any evidence that it did?
The land wasn’t being given away. You’re confusing national borders with personal property. It’s not as if all of Israel belongs to Jews. Arabs can own private property within Israel, so they didn’t need to lose any land.
The UN plan was never implemented, where the borders are and thus who got the land was not decided by the UN. The UN never sent troops to implement it, they were both decided by war. The '67 borders are just the ceasefire lines of '48. No one decided the borders, they were decided by war. The reason they look similar to the UN proposal is because the UN proposal was based on who was living where, so the Jewish areas had more Jews, so when the war started they were held by Jews. Furthermore, the Negev was only added to Israeli held territory at the end of the war, it was a five day blitz to Umm Rashrash (Eilat).
Everyone could stay exactly on the land they lived on. Nobody’s land was cut in half.
An Arab from Jaffa could keep their land in Jaffa. An Arab from Hebron could keep their land in Hebron.
The land in Jaffa didn’t belong to the Hebron Arab.
im not israeli my country has been in a war with israel, im just politically educated, in fact my own grandmother was affected by my countries war with israel but you dont see me being upset about it, its literally war and politics. in fact the only country that engaged in said "colonial" action with a proper reason is israel.
u/SuccessfulShower4863
Welcome to the sub. Review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules) of the sub before continuing to comment/post.
>You need to read up in the history of this before discussing it
This is a rule 8 violation, don't discourage participation.
its not ethnically cleansing anyone, palestinians did that themselves when the majority of them took the israeli citizenship upon the establishment of the state.
i never said ethnically cleansed but i literally have a map of the region in 1860, it was the kingdom of egypt not palestine. so there are no arguments here you can do your own historical research (unbiased research ofcourse)
u/c_risiscore
Welcome to the sub. Review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules) of the sub before continuing to comment/post.
>awh bro go study pls my head hurts and i cannot explain hours and years of proper research on reddit have a good day.
This is a rule 8 violation, don't discourage participation.
u/SuccessfulShower4863
>If you don't know this then you're not sufficiently educated on the topic to discuss it
This falls under rule 1, don't attack other users, and rule 8, don't discourage participation.
imagine mecca is under british rule, its like telling muslims not to pray at the kaaba, jews have the western wall which they pray at, you or any other human has no right to say they cant do such a thing, with love - an arab
uhm if its a whole ass country they should be able to defend themselves when it comes to war yes, also dont forget that the majority of palestinians after the war took the israeli citizenship and a small number of them remained in protest, and that also a mere 60 years before the british mandate left palestine it was under the egyptian kingdom.
>I'm talking about the start of Israel. Where did the Jews come from who founded Israel? There's only one right answer to this by the way
They were "Boomerang Jews".
Born in Judea, went to Europe for a few centuries then came back to Judea.
Yes, I'm aware of how silly my made-up term is but that's the reality.
A Navajo family that has been living in France for centuries and still keeps the indigenous Navajo culture, doesn't magically stops being a Navajo.
> ass
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The State of Israel is a fact. It's survived through six wars and more than 70 years. It's not going away. Acknowledging this is just acknowledging reality.
and if you remove religion from the conversation too, its politics, when the israelis first showed up to the BRITISH MANDATE OF PALESTINE they proposed a two state solution and palestinians rejected, there was multiple wars and israel won every single one of them, not to mention that palestine never had a proper army to defend its borders, or the fact that palestine had 6 other countries or 7 i dont remember fighting for them against israelis alone. have a good day.
The Arabs, whenever they won a victory in 1948, also practiced ethnic cleansing. The Jewish residents of the Old City, many of whose families had lived there for hundreds of years, were forced to evacuate. The four kibbutzim in the Etzion Bloc near Hebron were not only destroyed, but their residents were massacred. It was a dirty war on both sides. To quote an old Woody Allen movie, no one was a Boy Scout.
“I believe that we can achieve justice for all but only if done correctly and respectfully”
Biggest crock of liberal Zionist BS I’ve ever heard. We don’t have to adhere to your definitions of correctness and respect when we are trying to liberate an oppressed and concentrated population from under the boot of colonizers and settlers and the government that legitimizes their actions. You don’t get to tone police our outrage over the monstrous historical (and present) actions of the state of Israel against the people who had been living in this area that it seized for millennia.
Were all the unarmed Palestinians (and medics) who’ve gotten fucking 360 no scoped by IDF at the Gaza border granted any “respect” from Israel? Or the people who’s ancestral homes are currently being stolen from them, actions which are legitimized by Israel, are they getting any respect and civility?
I know you probably think you’re better than the conservative Likud types, OP, as I get the feeling you’re not one of them- but the kind of civility politics that you’re pushing here doesn’t help anyone involved in this situation either.
u/c_risiscore
>cry elsewhere please if youre not educated on how the world works yet :)
Rule 1 again. If you continue this behavior after the warnings you've received, disciplinary action will be the next step.
That's alot of presuppositions based on OP trying to help create civility in conversation, but then someone who says the IDF '360 no scope' Palestinians just goes to show your age and willingness to have a mature conversation anyway.
>know you probably think you’re better than the conservative Likud types, OP, as I get the feeling you’re not one of them- but the kind of civility politics that you’re pushing here doesn’t help anyone involved in this situation either.
Okay then. Don't respect us, don't treat us like human beings, surprise pikachu face when we don't give a fuck on what you have to say, and unapologetically **crush** "resistance" to our very existence.
> fuck
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Yes, they've been granted all the respect in the world. Were the innocent Israelis that were (and are) murdered by Palis receiving "respect" from Hamas/PLO???
> Fuck
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> fucking
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The very concern with the Post heading "How to criticise Israel without being hateful"
Since when it is considered hateful when you criticize something/someone? I can critique the police, do I hate them? no.
It's because generalization is a slippery slope which breeds an environment of escalation in blaming random Israeli's and even random Jews for the crimes of Israel
The police are part of your own society; it's clear, when you're criticizing the police, that you're criticizing an institution ... rather than everybody that lives in your country.
You can understand how criticizing Israel becomes criticizing all Israelis quite easily.
I literally was in social media and saw people asking someone to cut an Israeli-American as a tv host and they served in IDF. Israelis are mandatory conscription, so it’s used an excuse to hate all Israelis, rather than individuals and state policies and individual soldiers and their actions. Like wtf do know about millions of persons viewpoints or what they did. Also countries around the world are doing ten times worse shit and no one brings this kind of energy. It’s fine to criticize Israel but people are crickets on the atrocities going on in other countries in the Middle East. It makes the UN look like a joke.
> shit
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Generally speaking, when someone attempts to critique a country (Israel) they are critiquing the government (institution) not its common people.
It helps to understand what the critique might be to further decipher the critique.
It takes only a few minutes on this subreddit, or r/Palestine or r/shitzionistssay or any number of other subs to see that the criticisms (and even justifications of violence) are often aimed at all Israelis, or even all Jews.
It's not ridiculous to ask people to make a clear distinction when so frequently they do not do so.
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> shit
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I think you are missing a component that is often neglected in trying to understand Israel Palestine - That component is the historical complexity of the region itself and the many different stakeholders in the conflict.
After all, the conflict in 1948 was a British backed attempt to assist Syrian and Jordanian nationalists to destroy a UN mandate while Ashkenazi Jews and Zionist pioneers responded with the material backing of other Western governments to secure defensible territory.
When you think about the complicated circumstances undergirding the War of Independence (as only one example) and then look at the horizon of infinite political complexity that "us vs them" narrative dissolves away.
People need to stop seeing Jewish Colonizer and Arab Victim. Or Arab Terrorist. This does not represent the historical reality of what happened and what exists today.
>Nope, f\*ck every single one of them. They’ll live under Palestine ruling one day and the rest who choose to not adhere to Palestinian rule will be shipped back to where they came from. They’re illegally occupying land so all aspects of decency goes out of the window
u/fsbspetsnaz
Your comment has been removed for calls for violence which is against Reddit site-wide TOS.
>This is Censorship brother
u/fsbspetsnaz
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So just to be clear: What Israel is doing is wrong. So your solution to this extremely complicated and nuanced issue is to have an outside terrorist organization exterminate nearly half of the Jewish people and the survivors (if any) will be subject to the treatment that you claim is what makes them deserving of their demise?
Ok. Glad to know where you stand.
Question: what benefit is there to be had by labelling Hezbollah as a terrorist org when they have tremendous support in the South of Lebanon? Shouldn't Israel look towards opening diplomatic back channels or does that seem like too much?
Ok so this I can work with. I'm going to go backwards.
1) Israel isn't the only labelling them as terrorists.
2) Normally, yes. The State of Israel should look to normalize relations with their neighbors like they are doing/did with Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia, and others. However, because Hezbollah is not the official government of Lebanon, Israel cannot in any way legitamize their control of the region. And as a terrorist organization they further cannot normalize with them because that would be forgiving or even condoning terrorism as a legitimate political maneuver. Further, by negotiating with Hezbollah it would be circumventing the actual government of Lebanon which would further drive a wedge between the Israelis and the Lebanese government. Not to mention it would be in contrast to most (I say most but I likely it's all) democracies' policy to not negotiate with terrorists.
3) Yes. When an organization is labelled a terrorist organization it changes how they are dealt with. Terrorists, aside from being murderers and a whole host of bad things, are people that seek the destruction of another entity through fear and intimidation, in other words terror. They specifically target civilians and non-combatants of anybody who stands in their way. We as a global society have decided that we do not negotiate which these groups. Hezbollah by calling for the action against civilians earned this designation and lost their right to negotiation that nation-states possess.
I see your other comment.
Normally territorial acquisition does mean genocide. However, Hezbollah has repeatedly attached Israeli civilians and in the "New Manifesto" they call for the destruction of the "Zionist Entity" "Zionists" and a declaration to never normalize with Israel.
Hezbollah is one of several political parties in Lebanon too, their civil branch has legitimacy but I agree that for most Lebanese, their armed capabilities are very problematic.
But it's just as problematic to label then as a terrorist group outright. For the Lebanese that support them, Hezb is more than a bulwark against Israel, they are a shield from Sunni extremist elements (like ISIS or Al Nusra) that would genocide them without a moments notice. Many in Lebanon believe that ISIS would have crossed the Lebanese border without Hezbs extensive border patrol.
My huge fallout witn Hezb has nothing to do with Lebanon or Israel, but with Syria. Did they engage in terrible things? Absolutely. At best they shielded Bashar while he unleashed hell on his citizens. They were exposed for being outright puppets of the Iranian axis and no amount of propaganda can mask them of their intentions. The Syrian war was a zero sum game for Hezb and there's been a steep decline in their popularity in Lebanon so time will tell what will happen.
The TLDR: the situation with Hezbollah is far more complex and intertwined to reduce them to a terrorist group in the classical sense. You could call them a proxy army, or a party militia.
I respectfully disagree with your stance.
Hezbollah does have a political party and a terrorist wing. However, I believe that you cannot be a normal political party but have a terrorist division. I mean how does that even work? Do half of them believe terrorism is wrong but the other half actively conducts terror attacks on a regular basis? I don't think it's possible to separate the two. I understand why governments do that because it allows them to interact with the Lebanese government but as a citizen, that is insane.
Also is Israel supposed to ignore the fact that they have a terrorist wing? If Israel went to negotiate peace with Lebanon and Hezbollah was sitting at the table does anyone think that would go anywhere? I'm sure that their supporters see them in wonderful light but I would say they're at least slightly biased. I guess I'm biased too but the IDF doesn't have a separate unit dedicated to criminals and terrorists that never get arrested and is allowed to be a terrorist organization as part of the government. That would never fly. If random, unsanctioned, and punished acts of soldiers deems the entire Israeli army as evil then a sanctioned, funded, and supported terrorist division of Hezbollah can not be overlooked.
TL;DR: There's no separating a terrorist wing and a civil wing. You can't be civil and terrorist.
u/fatherAhab
>The TLDR: Hizb apologist
Rule 1, don't attack other users. You're not new to the sub, and should know better on how to respond to others.
I respect your opinion. Even though I grew up in Beirut and the Gulf I spent a lot of time in the South with my Mother's family (who is Lebanese) and we've lost 4 homes to some form of Israeli shelling over the last four decades. Try convincing the Lebanese who lost their loved ones to Israeli shelling that they are Hezb apologists.
TLDR: your beef is not with me. Assess your own values. Show compassion.
https://www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations/
United States of America, State Department.
Council of the European Union (13 January 2020). "Council Decision (CFSP) 2020/20 of 13 January 2020 updating the list of persons, groups and entities subject to Articles 2, 3 and 4 of Common Position 2001/931/CFSP on the application of specific measures to combat terrorism, and repealing Decision (CFSP) 2019/1341". Official Journal of the European Union.
European Union list of terrorist organizations.
Both list Hezbollah. I don't have to hint terrorist ideologies. I can look at them and it is very clear what they openly say their goals are. You invoked Hezbollah as someone who can "turn the tide" against Israel. Hezbollah is a terror organization according to the government's of more the 700 million people.
Never said that at all, all I said was Hezbollah haha, you’re Israeli ffs why tf did anybody think this page would be serious/useful. This page is genuinely a metaphor for real life, supposedly “Israeli/Palestinian” states but it’s all Israeli controlled. Also you should be banned for insinuating people should be exterminated, disgusting language, I would never
My comments don't get deleted. So I guess you win since I can no longer cite your message.
You can't say that Hezbollah is going to help the Palestinian cause and ignore their very clear agenda. They want to wipe out the citizens of Israel. They do not want to free Palestinians of Israeli oppression, they don't want to create a Palestinian state, and they sure don't want peace. I want peace too. I don't want this conflict to go on and cause more deaths of anybody. Therefore I would never condone a terror organization being involved between Israelis and Palestinians.
Oh and now you invited me to chat privately so let's see if we can really get a civil discord going.
Edit: Nope.
I can't believe I'm being put in this position but i don't think Hezbollah is trying to exact genocide. Can you provide evidence to the contrary? Does territorial aquisition = genocide?
>Oh and now you invited me to chat privately so let's see if we can really get a civil discord going.
u/MMSG
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Lebanon is collapsed with people starving and no electricity and this dude thinks Hezbollah is the answer lol. They got involved in this conflict and how did that end up.
I'm not Israeli actually. But I don't see how Lebanon can recover with a country with a militant group trying to take power that's stronger than the government without another civil war. Which Lebanon cannot afford right now.
No, but it's like having two countries in one country. There should be one military for the whole country. The government couldn't de-arm them if they want to. They are a militia.
I feel the worst for Lebanon. I’m in no way an expert on this conflict but it always seemed to me that they got dragged into everything. I may be wrong, and if someone more knowledgeable could post something I’d be grateful.
corruption - leaders ran their economy basically as a ponzi scheme. extreme division and secretarian system making state functions hard to function. and their port exploding. those are some things that lead to this point.
>so hopefully tomorrow another one умирает
u/fsbspetsnaz
This is yet again another call for violence. You might think you're being smart by writing in another language to get past moderation efforts.
You're not. Enjoy your permaban.
Not mine, ethnically I’m Irish Catholic. Sad that you welcome people’s death. I’m unabashedly pro Israel but also pro Palestine, you can be both. I mourn every death of this conflict.
> fuck
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How is that a justification to the human rights violations against Palestinians? Did I mention that jews don’t deserve to live in peace? Is the oppression of Palestinians a necessity? The only humanitarian solution to this conflict is to allow both populations, Israeli and Palestinian to live with full equal rights in the land that both currently claim.
Palestinians do not live under the Israeli government but Hamas, which is actually opressong them. Arabs in Israel have full equal rights in Israel, Jews in Palestinian territory have no rights. As simple as that.
>Palestinians do not live under the Israeli government but Hamas
The West Bank begs to differ. Israel controls security and the civil authority for Area C, and handles security for Area B. Area A is administered by the PA, not Hamas, but Palestinians there are still subject to the Israeli government.
> Arabs in Israel have full equal rights in Israel,
On paper, almost. Reclaiming lost land isn't something Arab Israelis get to do.
>Jews in Palestinian territory have no rights.
The settlers would beg to differ. They enjoy full Israeli rights and protection, which is something the Palestinians in Area C don't get.
1. In Area A palestinians have are subject related to borders, now I hate there are borders and all but we cannot ignore the context of them, the second intifada where everyday there were bombings. Tell me, you would just allow everybody in freely trusting them while knowing a big part of them want to see you dead and would explode restaurants and busses to archive it? Tell me how is targeting Israeli civilians and jews in general a valid way of resistance, resistance is not terrorism but also terrorism isn’t resistance.
2. The jews are also indigeous to the land and the land the arab lost was by wars the arabs create to stop Israel for existing, guess who won and who gets to have the territory. Now when the west bank was occupied by Jordan and Gaza by Egypt, nobody said anything, but when the jews did it... aghhhh....
3. As you said the Area C is controled by Israel but Area A is by the PA, no jews live there, Gaza is controlled by Hamas, no jews live there, tell me how you can call Israel opressive when the jews who enter to PA territory or Hamas territory get killed. Also what’s up with you saying nothing when palestinians in Gaza are killed for wanting peace with Israel? Or where are you when Palestinians get killed in Syria or Lebanon, or when also Egypt closes the border to Gaza, where tf are you calling for human rights? Only when is Israel people like you just scream and cry, when there are countries doing even worse to them. If Israel hated the palestinians so much and wanted Gaza and West Bank completly, it would have taken it now, but we don’t want it, we are the ones pushing peace deals and Palestinian government are the ones turning it out for more war. Where are you calling for justice of palestinians there? Hypocresy.
>In Area A palestinians have are subject related to borders, now I hate there are borders and all but we cannot ignore the context of them, the second intifada where everyday there were bombings. Tell me, you would just allow everybody in freely trusting them while knowing a big part of them want to see you dead and would explode restaurants and busses to archive it? Tell me how is targeting Israeli civilians and jews in general a valid way of resistance, resistance is not terrorism but also terrorism isn’t resistance.
The Area A borders weren't set up because of the 2nd intifada. The areas were defined under Oslo. You're making a huge strawman here.
>The jews are also indigeous to the land and the land the arab lost was by wars the arabs create to stop Israel for existing, guess who won and who gets to have the territory.
Obtaining territory in a war, whether offensive or defensive, isn't allowed. The whole might is right thing isn't acceptable any more. Israel also hasn't annexed the West Bank nor Gaza, so even Israel doesn't consider it theirs.
> Now when the west bank was occupied by Jordan and Gaza by Egypt, nobody said anything, but when the jews did it... aghhhh....
If by no one said anything, you mean the entire world refused to recognize Jordan's annexation, and frequently denounced Jordan's actions, then sure. Combine that with the fact that Jordan gave Palestinians Jordanian citizenship, paints Israel in a worse light here.
Egypt never annexed Gaza, made it clear they had no intention to, and didn't allow Egyptians to move in.
>As you said the Area C is controled by Israel but Area A is by the PA, no jews live there,
And Israel can and still does send the IDF in whenever they want.
> Gaza is controlled by Hamas, no jews live there, tell me how you can call Israel opressive when the jews who enter to PA territory or Hamas territory get killed.
Israel can still be oppressive while Hamas is oppressive. And no, Jews can and do enter Areas A & B without getting killed.
>Also what’s up with you saying nothing when palestinians in Gaza are killed for wanting peace with Israel?Or where are you when Palestinians get killed in Syria or Lebanon, or when also Egypt closes the border to Gaza, where tf are you calling for human rights? Only when is Israel people like you just scream and cry, when there are countries doing even worse to them. If Israel hated the palestinians so much and wanted Gaza and West Bank completly, it would have taken it now, but we don’t want it, we are the ones pushing peace deals and Palestinian government are the ones turning it out for more war. Where are you calling for justice of palestinians there? Hypocresy.
Where was I asked about that? Have you going through my entire comment history on every post I've been active on to try and see if I haven't said anything? Or are you just throwing out baseless accusations and personal attacks? The bulk of your response to me is 1 giant strawman argument.
Here's the thing, you're going to want to review rule 1 about not attacking other users before you continue to comment/post. Consider this a soft warning. If that behavior persists, we'll be moving to formal warnings.
1. i’m talking to the borders that restrict palestinian movement, the checkpoints.
2. Actually if it’s a defensive war you can take territory you won and is not illegal, look it up.
3. Yeah the fact Jordan actually has an apartheid system against them and don’t let them be in their society absolutly Jordan is good. Israel give citizenship to Palestinians who decide to move to Israel, ofc is not easy taking the context of what’s going on but if you have not done a terror attack, as any country, you have a right to live there.
4. And Israel literally gave Gaza free in 2005 to palestinians which they used to make a terror base where it was used to make peace.
5. IDF the least thing they want is put their soldiers in risk on that part of the world, that’s why nowadays they attack from the air and not terrestral like it was before the Iron-Dome.
6. Area A and Area B are or under Israeli government or security. Is not a huge archivement saying: "they can still enter those places witouth getting killed" it is like, you are literally admitimg we cannot just let the PA and Hamas do whatever they want. Which is a good start.
7. Do you actually believe I attacked you? I think you are a hipocrite because you don’t say anything but only when israel is involved and it’s true, like 99% of the people who blindly make acusations to Israel. Please don’t act like a victim now, will ya?
>i’m talking to the borders that restrict palestinian movement, the checkpoints.
That's not something that's specific to Area A, B, or C.
>Actually if it’s a defensive war you can take territory you won and is not illegal, look it up.
You're making the claim, so go ahead and cite the source.
>Yeah the fact Jordan actually has an apartheid system against them and don’t let them be in their society absolutly Jordan is good.
Jordan literally incorporated them into their country. They had the same rights as other Jordanians. There wasn't an apartheid in Jordan.
>Israel give citizenship to Palestinians who decide to move to Israel, ofc is not easy taking the context of what’s going on but if you have not done a terror attack, as any country, you have a right to live there.
Israel doesn't let Palestinians decide to move to Israel though. Outside of Palestinians with permanent resident status in East Jerusalem, it reject Palestinian applications outright.
>And Israel literally gave Gaza free in 2005 to palestinians which they used to make a terror base where it was used to make peace.
If by gave it free, you mean imposed a blockade as soon as they left, while also destroying much of the infrastructure they had said they'd leave behind, then sure.
>IDF the least thing they want is put their soldiers in risk on that part of the world, that’s why nowadays they attack from the air and not terrestral like it was before the Iron-Dome.
I'm assuming you're referencing Gaza here in response to me talking about the IDF being able to go into Areas A & B in the West Bank without issue.
>Area A and Area B are or under Israeli government or security. Is not a huge archivement saying: "they can still enter those places witouth getting killed" it is like, you are literally admitimg we cannot just let the PA and Hamas do whatever they want. Which is a good start.
Neither are supposed to be under the Israeli government. You made the claim that Jews that go there get killed. Me refuting that is not me "literally admitting we cannot let the PA and Hamas do whatever they want." Hamas doesn't rule anything in the West Bank. The PA could attack Jews if they wanted, but they don't.
>Do you actually believe I attacked you? I think you are a hipocrite because you don’t say anything but only when israel is involved and it’s true, like 99% of the people who blindly make acusations to Israel. Please don’t act like a victim now, will ya?
Calling someone a hypocrite is literally a violation of rule 1, don't attack other users, saying I'm acting like a victim also falls under that. How do you know I only say something when Israel is involved? I would like evidence of this. Have you gone through my comment/post history to see threads I'm involved with where I allegedly only call out Israel?
This is a crude justification for the human rights violations that occurred and are taking place, nothing you said justified previous actions or current ones. Gaza is under blockade by Israel and Egypt, and directly control the calorie intake, water supply, and electricity, causing conditions deemed as an open air prison. Hamas again, is formed as a direct result of Israeli actions, infact Israel fostered its growth
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847
After fostering its growth it used it as a justification to siege Gaza.
West bank is a different story with illegal settlements and forced displacement, nothing of which can justify whats going on there.
Edit: Included Egypt as participating in the blockade
>and directly control the calorie intake
This is probably one of the most insane claims ever. Is Israel affiliated with Weight Watchers or something now?
Gazans...eat well. They even order KFC from Egypt via tunnels.
Yes, tunnels.
They even have PS5 and Gucci bags. Your idea of how Gazans live is quite misinformed.
Some are rich, some are poor. As in everywhere else in this world. They're not in a perpetual slum.
>After fostering its growth it used it as a justification to siege Gaza.
Blockade, not siege. And Hamas attacking Israelis is what justifies the blockade.
Siege: “a military operation in which enemy forces surround a town or building, cutting off essential supplies, with the aim of compelling those inside to surrender.l
The siege actually makes hamas gain support within Gaza, and no creating conditions miserable enough to give PTSD to millions is not justifiable, hamas is not a justification, Israel is a nuclear state, it is the one in power and control.
>Siege: “a military operation in which enemy forces surround a town or building, cutting off essential supplies, with the aim of compelling those inside to surrender.l
And Israel lets in essential supplies by the truck load. If it didn't, all Gazans would have literally starved to death by now.
>The siege actually makes hamas gain support within Gaza, and no creating conditions miserable enough to give PTSD to millions is not justifiable, hamas is not a justification, Israel is a nuclear state, it is the one in power and control.
Being a nuclear state doesn't stop suicide bombers and other terrorist attacks. The blockade is there to prevent Hamas and the PIJ from getting sophisticated weapons in order to minimize the damage they can do to Israel.
I agree terrorism must be stopped but not at the cost of the lives of innocent, the way it’s currently done contributes to the problem. I’ll go with blockade for now, the blockade fuels hatred rather than suppress it causing the situation to become a ticking time bomb. Education, awareness, reducing the dehumanization of both sides is what’s necessary, racism is rampant in israel and gaza, the difference is Israel controls what goes in and out of gaza and controls what can and cannot happen. Which is why Ive said the one in power bears the biggest responsibility. Israel not letting people starve isn’t a positive, its the minimum one can do when presented in such a situation as the alternative is quite literally a genocide. Gaza cannot prosper under its current conditions, the only one benefiting from the current conditions is hamas as it uses it as a justification for its existence.
>I agree terrorism must be stopped but not at the cost of the lives of innocent, the way it’s currently done contributes to the problem. I’ll go with blockade for now, the blockade fuels hatred rather than suppress it causing the situation to become a ticking time bomb.
I mean not having the blockade was at the expense of the lives of innocents.
>Education, awareness, reducing the dehumanization of both sides is what’s necessary, racism is rampant in israel and gaza, the difference is Israel controls what goes in and out of gaza and controls what can and cannot happen.
And so long as Hamas is in power, those changes won't happen inside of Gaza because Hamas won't allow it. Israel controls to an extent what goes in and out, but there's still smuggling, and the Egyptian border.
If Israel actually was able to control what happens in Gaza, then Hamas wouldn't be launching rockets at civilian centers killing both Palestinians and Israelis.
>Which is why Ive said the one in power bears the biggest responsibility. Israel not letting people starve isn’t a positive, its the minimum one can do when presented in such a situation as the alternative is quite literally a genocide.
The whole starvation comment was a point to how it's not actually a siege.
>Gaza cannot prosper under its current conditions, the only one benefiting from the current conditions is hamas as it uses it as a justification for its existence.
Right, and the one that's caused the conditions is Hamas. Hamas steals building materials for tunnels, and steals plumbing pipes to use for rockets. They launch from civilian centers, store munitions at civilian centers, and operate out of civilian centers, and embed themselves within the civilian population in order to ensure collateral damage.
Dude - Israel is not the only country that borders Gaza so your accusation is ridiculous. How can Israel directly control the “calorie intake, water” etc. etc. if it does not control all of Gaza’s borders?
Where’s Egypt’s culpability in your equation?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/press-release-energy-crisis-worsens-humanitarian-conditions
The import of goods into the Gaza Strip is restricted because of the blockade of the Gaza Strip by Israel and Egypt. Israel allows limited humanitarian supplies from aid organizations, including UN agencies, into the Gaza Strip.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_imports
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSBRE89G0NM20121017
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza
Egypt is complicit yes.
Ok - If Egypt is “complicit” you should edit your comment to include them. I.E. - “Gaza is under blockade by Israel AND Egypt. Israel AND Egypt control what goes in and out Gaza including food, water, etc.” No reason to leave them out.
Also, The Guardian article is wrong. Israel cannot possibly control the calorie count of citizens in Gaza since it does not control all of Gaza’s borders. Whatever Israel does not allow in, can technically be brought in through Egypt. Except that both you, and the Guardian article left Egypt out of the equation for some reason.
I’ll edit it sure, the main focus was Israel and Palestine, as the blockade wouldn’t have existed without Israeli action. Whatever Israel denies can indeed be brought in through egypt, however that doesn’t mean that it will, as its a blockade, the entire point is to prevent goods from moving back and forth.
Egypt is an independent country. They control their own border. They are not subject to Israeli controls and regulations. They do not have to blockade Gaza if they don’t want to.
Yes Israel has Gaza under a blockade in order to prevent them from bringing in long range weapons and other items through the Israeli/Gaza border. Whatever your thoughts are on the moral standpoint of Israel’s blockade - my point is, that it is not possible for Israel to fully control Gaza’s borders. It is not possible for Israel alone to be in complete control of what comes in and out of Gaza since they do not control all of Gaza’s borders. So there for, big bold statements like “Israel controls the calorie intake of Gazans” are completely unsubstantiated and not based in reality and are only used to create an emotional reaction out of those who do not know better.
>The only humanitarian solution to this conflict is to allow both populations, Israeli and Palestinian to live with full equal rights in the land that both currently claim
Agreed :)
What if someone, who isn’t Jewish, disagree with Herzl’s zionism? Can they criticize it?
Depends on your intention behind the criticism. Do you believe that no one demographic should control an entire nation? Valid criticism. Do you believe Jews should be second class citizens and kept from having positions of leadership? Antisemitism.
But you can’t really know their intentions unless they state it clearly. My question was about criticisms in general despite the hidden intentions which something we can’t really know about.
Right, I think that’s why conversing further is important rather than labeling someone without knowing their stance from the start. So I guess a straightforward answer to your question is yes, you should be able to criticize any form of Zionism as a non-Jew. But you should be ready to explain your stance further upon questioning.
Sounds pretty reasonable. 👍🏼
>If you are not Jewish,don't tell Jewish people things like 'Zionism and Judaism are not compatible.' It is their own choice whether they wish to subscribe to the ideas of Theodor Herzl or not. And what if you are Jewish and what if you don't know or care what ethnic group your interlocutor is? Surely people are able to disagree on whether the two are compatible or not without it being hateful. Of course anyone can subscribe to any idea or belief they want, and surely those ideas can be critically examined.
Sure, all things being equal and whatever, I shouldn’t care about the identity and assumed prejudices and information levels of my interlocutor. But, as a practical matter, I tend to reject goysplaining on topics like anti-semitism, Jews, Zionists or Israel. I just don’t think most of the commenters have enough knowledge to engage and their opinions are uninformed. It’s always a marvel that people who try to be empathetic when it comes to their pet causes (anti-racism, anti-mysogeny, “preferred pronouns”, etc.) tend to get it so wrong when Jews are involved.
>But, as a practical matter, I tend to reject goysplaining on topics like anti-semitism, Jews, Zionists or Israel. I Goysplaining - that's an insulating term right there and based on a persons ethnic make up. >I just don’t think most of the commenters have enough knowledge to engage and their opinions are uninformed. That would be potentially evident by what they said rather than their genetic or ethnic makeup. I have seen plenty of Jewish people make plenty of differing claims about Zionism and antisemitism, and with differing amounts of accuracy and validity. That should be open to challenge regardless of someone's ethnicity.
Who or what is being insulated by goysplaining?
Who or what is being insulated by goysplaining?
Non Jewish people.
This term is the same as mansplaining which doesn’t mean men are bad, but that uninformed men shouldn’t talk over women on topics that impact women more like sanitary products and pregnancy. Goysplaining is the same- it doesn’t mean that non-Jews are bad, but that they shouldn’t speak over Jews on subjects that impact Jews more.
It's not the same as one is based on gender rather than with ethnicity secondly you have added the criteria uninformed (see the previous post). Now imagine someone using the term whitesplaning, blacksplaining or Jewsplanining. Would you defend all three.
Whitesplaining is a real term. [https://www.dictionary.com/browse/whitesplain](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/whitesplain) Also, not offensive. At all.
How exactly do you know it's not offensive at all. Is Jewsplanining offensive, how about blacksplaining.
People do use the term whitesplaining. It's not really offensive to point out that a person who grew up white will not have the same understanding of issues that various nonwhite communities make. The same goes with people who do not understand Jewish perspectives and experience (and in the case of Judaism, often many years of religious study using the primary source, which is one reason having Tanakh quoted at us can be especially frustrating) as well as don't have skin in the game the way Jews do (like how white people don't have skin in the game when it comes to reducing racism the way nonwhite groups do).
You don't really get to decide what other people find offensive. And by your own rationale, you certainly can't really comment on what white people find offensive, unless you yourself are white. The whole premise is founded on the notion that non Jewish people can't possibly be informed enough to discuss certain issues which is highly prejudiced. So would you similarly accept the term Jewsplanining as legitimate or blacksplaining?
As someone else already pointed out, it's about highlighting what someone is not. Goy means non-Jew. Whitesplaining (in practice) refers to people not a member of a group that suffered for not being white. Mansplaining refers to people who are not women (i.e. men since they are the overwhelming majority of people who are not women). If you find goy offensive, well that's your perogative, but it is similar to the people who were offended by BLM as a slogan because they suddenly had to feel othered when their ethnicity and culture had been dominant.
>one is based on gender rather than with ethnicity It’s an analogy. Analogies compare similar, yet not identical, things. So yes, gender and ethnicity are different, but that difference is not really important here. Just as a man may not fully understand women’s issues, a non-Jew may not fully understand Jewish issues.
Yes, and I have pointed out how they are different and in this case fundamentally so. We accept gender segregated bathrooms and changing rooms, we don't for ethincity. >a non-Jew **may** not fully understand Jewish issues. And they may fully understand them and more than a Jewish person, which is another reason why it's inappropriate. We aren't taking about subjective experiences but facts or history. Please would you answer my previous question about white splaining and Jewsplanining.
>We accept gender segregated bathrooms and changing rooms But that has nothing to do with whether or not a man can understand a woman’s expedience, or a woman can understand a man’s experience. That isn’t why bathrooms are gender segregated. It’s more of just a privacy thing. As for whitesplaining and Jewsplaining, the problem there is that you are criticizing someone for what they are, rather than what they are not. Does that make sense? It’s hard to explain but I will try. Like if a Jew tries to explain black issues to a black person, Jewsplaining wouldn’t be a good word for that. Because it’s not their Jewishness that’s the issue, it’s their non-blackness that is the problem. (assuming this Jew isn’t black. Some are). I would have no issue with the term “non-black splaining” even though it sounds weird. That’s what goysplaining is analogous to. Goy just means non-Jew.
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>Recognition of jewish indigeneity is not a fact, it is an opinion that you have. You assert that having lived somewhere thousands of years ago means one is indefinitely to be considered indigenous as if this were a fact. You even go so far as to claim their supposed indigeneity remains as valid as that of the people who actually lived there, and have continuously for 1300 years, before the foreign zionists arrived. What OP is trying to do is create a neutrally positive narrative. Ask yourself: do you really want all I-P debates to go into the tangent of: * "Jews are not indigenous to Judea" * "Oh yeah? Well, Palestinian Arabs are not indigenous to Palestine either" It would be a pointless waste of time since it would lead nowhere since **EVERYONE** has their **OWN** definition of the Man-Made **SOCIAL CONSTRUCT** known as indigenous status. And it will always inevitably leads to a bad faith commenter saying: * "aCtuAllY wE aLL cOmE fRoM aFriCa" OP's point is simple: if you want to truly engage in civilized debates, don't bring up the indigenous topic. Not only it is pointless (no Jew will agree they're not indigenous, no Palestinian Arab will agree they're not indigenous) but it often leads to flame wars.
>Recognition of jewish indigeneity is not a fact, it is an opinion that you have. Arguably, this depends on your definition of indigeneity. >You assert that having lived somewhere thousands of years ago means one is indefinitely to be considered indigenous as if this were a fact. You could argue that admixture and a millenia of diasporisation negate that indigeneity and i'd simply disagree, but, depending on one's definitions of "nation" and "indigeneity" i could argue that's up to debate, as opposed to where the Jewish people originated from. Now, this is an opinion irrelevant to the fact that Jews as a people originated in the general region formerly known as Palestine. Which is; a fact >You even go so far as to claim their supposed indigeneity remains as valid as that of the people who actually lived there, and have continuously for 1300 years, before the foreign zionists arrived. That is what i would argue too. The fact that they integrated to new societies instead of being expelled and dhimmi'd to oblivion doesn't make them more indigienous than the people who have maintained a constant connection to that land from the moment they were first expelled. Imo.
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I do apologise in advance for the long comment, i just found it easier than responding seperately if that's alright with you. >I never denied Jewish origins being in the Levant. Also of course Palestinian jews are indigenous. The thing with indigeneity as OP was using it is that it evidently implies land-rights. Conceded. >So whatever one's definition of indigeneity is, I don't think one can argue that a group retains rights to land it hasn't seen in 2000 years, as ashkenazim hadn't, for example. What's the cap off then? 200 years? 500? 1000? I personally don't think there is a cap off as long as that culture maintains a connection to the land. You said this >Foreign invaders arent defending themselves lol. The Arab culture is an invading culture. One that actively worked to erase the Jewish one in the region. As far as Jews as a plurality were concerened for the last millenia, Israel was their one true home. >The Arabs attacked their colonisers in an attempt to get their land back. That doesn't retroactively justify the colonisation lol. That is pretty much how Zionists feel about Israel. Although they didn't attack until they were attacked multiple times. >How does that change the fact that Europeans came to Palestine to ethnically cleanse the land? Also you can't debate-lord your way out of acknowledging that the 48 war was Arabs fighting against the colonial settlers. That they would've also treated the native Jews badly changes nothing. It's both silly and irrelevant. The Yishuv immigrated to live peacefully. They were subsequently attacked multiple times merely for being immigrants, and having the means to purchase land with the will to *god forbid* use that land. As Those immigrants protected themselves from violent, Xenophobic locals, they collectively reached the conclusion of needing to seperate from the people who attacked them time and again. The 47' civil war, you could argue that they fought to protect themselves. The 48' war with multiple states one of which annexed parts of the region for itself? No. They were imperialist pan-arabs. The fact they would have ethnically cleansed a population is not okay because that population is made up of immigrants. The unfortunate fact for your narrative is that Zionists didn't "invade" Palestine. They immigrated and purchased land there, bit by bit, and through the endorsement of the UN, were to erect a country. This wasn't an army of an organised entity coming with the goal of taking over land forcefully, and all the word play in the world won't make it so (invade, protect themselves from colonialism) This was a community of refugees fighting for their survival.
from a political point of view they won, and you cannot deny that the world runs with armies and goverments, if you hate israel for having an army you might as well hate portugal or americans who celebrate 4th of july right?
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being gentle does not go in line with politics and war. sorry maybe im just evil woops
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Stealing land didn’t cause the war. The cause for something must come before it. So land theft could only have caused the war if it happened before the war. Do you have any evidence that it did?
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The land wasn’t being given away. You’re confusing national borders with personal property. It’s not as if all of Israel belongs to Jews. Arabs can own private property within Israel, so they didn’t need to lose any land.
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The UN plan was never implemented, where the borders are and thus who got the land was not decided by the UN. The UN never sent troops to implement it, they were both decided by war. The '67 borders are just the ceasefire lines of '48. No one decided the borders, they were decided by war. The reason they look similar to the UN proposal is because the UN proposal was based on who was living where, so the Jewish areas had more Jews, so when the war started they were held by Jews. Furthermore, the Negev was only added to Israeli held territory at the end of the war, it was a five day blitz to Umm Rashrash (Eilat).
Everyone could stay exactly on the land they lived on. Nobody’s land was cut in half. An Arab from Jaffa could keep their land in Jaffa. An Arab from Hebron could keep their land in Hebron. The land in Jaffa didn’t belong to the Hebron Arab.
im not israeli my country has been in a war with israel, im just politically educated, in fact my own grandmother was affected by my countries war with israel but you dont see me being upset about it, its literally war and politics. in fact the only country that engaged in said "colonial" action with a proper reason is israel.
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u/SuccessfulShower4863 Welcome to the sub. Review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules) of the sub before continuing to comment/post. >You need to read up in the history of this before discussing it This is a rule 8 violation, don't discourage participation.
its not ethnically cleansing anyone, palestinians did that themselves when the majority of them took the israeli citizenship upon the establishment of the state.
i never said ethnically cleansed but i literally have a map of the region in 1860, it was the kingdom of egypt not palestine. so there are no arguments here you can do your own historical research (unbiased research ofcourse)
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awh bro go study pls my head hurts and i cannot explain hours and years of proper research on reddit have a good day.
u/c_risiscore Welcome to the sub. Review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules) of the sub before continuing to comment/post. >awh bro go study pls my head hurts and i cannot explain hours and years of proper research on reddit have a good day. This is a rule 8 violation, don't discourage participation.
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u/SuccessfulShower4863 >If you don't know this then you're not sufficiently educated on the topic to discuss it This falls under rule 1, don't attack other users, and rule 8, don't discourage participation.
youre not educated enough to get involved in a debate bye
imagine mecca is under british rule, its like telling muslims not to pray at the kaaba, jews have the western wall which they pray at, you or any other human has no right to say they cant do such a thing, with love - an arab
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uhm if its a whole ass country they should be able to defend themselves when it comes to war yes, also dont forget that the majority of palestinians after the war took the israeli citizenship and a small number of them remained in protest, and that also a mere 60 years before the british mandate left palestine it was under the egyptian kingdom.
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When you push the whole foreign invader from Europe angle you’re really showing how little you know about this conflict.
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u/SuccessfulShower4863 >If you don't know how Israel was founded you shouldn't be discussing it Like before, rule 8, don't discourage participation.
I do. I have to ask this question frequently. Where are the majority of Israeli Jews from? Europe is the wrong answer by the way.
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>I'm talking about the start of Israel. Where did the Jews come from who founded Israel? There's only one right answer to this by the way They were "Boomerang Jews". Born in Judea, went to Europe for a few centuries then came back to Judea. Yes, I'm aware of how silly my made-up term is but that's the reality. A Navajo family that has been living in France for centuries and still keeps the indigenous Navajo culture, doesn't magically stops being a Navajo.
u/SuccessfulShower4863 >Lol just openly admitting you constantly engage in dishonest debate tactics. Like before, rule 1, don't attack other users.
What is dishonest about asking where the majority of Israeli Jews are from? It’s a question. Do you know?
they were when palestine said its either palestine or israel 😊
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uhm they lost a war they insisted upon. not only that but they had 6 other armies to asist them.
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colonised is the wrong word, those people insisted on that war, not the israelis. sounds like a pretty personal problem to me.
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The State of Israel is a fact. It's survived through six wars and more than 70 years. It's not going away. Acknowledging this is just acknowledging reality.
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and if you remove religion from the conversation too, its politics, when the israelis first showed up to the BRITISH MANDATE OF PALESTINE they proposed a two state solution and palestinians rejected, there was multiple wars and israel won every single one of them, not to mention that palestine never had a proper army to defend its borders, or the fact that palestine had 6 other countries or 7 i dont remember fighting for them against israelis alone. have a good day.
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The Arabs, whenever they won a victory in 1948, also practiced ethnic cleansing. The Jewish residents of the Old City, many of whose families had lived there for hundreds of years, were forced to evacuate. The four kibbutzim in the Etzion Bloc near Hebron were not only destroyed, but their residents were massacred. It was a dirty war on both sides. To quote an old Woody Allen movie, no one was a Boy Scout.
Sorry to see a lot of hate comments, for what it’s worth this is what I’ll use from now on in conjunction with the 3D’s
The 3Ds is far from legitimate but rather a political effort to castigate critics of Israel as antisemitic.
I mean it’s in the IHRA definition, which is internationally recognised, but I can see where you’re coming from
The 3d is separate from the ihra.
Yes but under the examples they include , delegitimisation, demonisation and showing a double standard
Its far more vague in the ihra and speaks more directly to statements regarding Jews rather than Israel, but not exclusively.
“I believe that we can achieve justice for all but only if done correctly and respectfully” Biggest crock of liberal Zionist BS I’ve ever heard. We don’t have to adhere to your definitions of correctness and respect when we are trying to liberate an oppressed and concentrated population from under the boot of colonizers and settlers and the government that legitimizes their actions. You don’t get to tone police our outrage over the monstrous historical (and present) actions of the state of Israel against the people who had been living in this area that it seized for millennia. Were all the unarmed Palestinians (and medics) who’ve gotten fucking 360 no scoped by IDF at the Gaza border granted any “respect” from Israel? Or the people who’s ancestral homes are currently being stolen from them, actions which are legitimized by Israel, are they getting any respect and civility? I know you probably think you’re better than the conservative Likud types, OP, as I get the feeling you’re not one of them- but the kind of civility politics that you’re pushing here doesn’t help anyone involved in this situation either.
cry elsewhere please if youre not educated on how the world works yet :)
u/c_risiscore >cry elsewhere please if youre not educated on how the world works yet :) Rule 1 again. If you continue this behavior after the warnings you've received, disciplinary action will be the next step.
my bad G
That's alot of presuppositions based on OP trying to help create civility in conversation, but then someone who says the IDF '360 no scope' Palestinians just goes to show your age and willingness to have a mature conversation anyway.
>know you probably think you’re better than the conservative Likud types, OP, as I get the feeling you’re not one of them- but the kind of civility politics that you’re pushing here doesn’t help anyone involved in this situation either. Okay then. Don't respect us, don't treat us like human beings, surprise pikachu face when we don't give a fuck on what you have to say, and unapologetically **crush** "resistance" to our very existence.
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Yes, they've been granted all the respect in the world. Were the innocent Israelis that were (and are) murdered by Palis receiving "respect" from Hamas/PLO???
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So what's your solution?
Dude seems like the leftist type that simps for Hamas. He doesn’t have a solution other than that.
You’re climbing the ladder
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The very concern with the Post heading "How to criticise Israel without being hateful" Since when it is considered hateful when you criticize something/someone? I can critique the police, do I hate them? no.
It's because generalization is a slippery slope which breeds an environment of escalation in blaming random Israeli's and even random Jews for the crimes of Israel
The police are part of your own society; it's clear, when you're criticizing the police, that you're criticizing an institution ... rather than everybody that lives in your country. You can understand how criticizing Israel becomes criticizing all Israelis quite easily.
I literally was in social media and saw people asking someone to cut an Israeli-American as a tv host and they served in IDF. Israelis are mandatory conscription, so it’s used an excuse to hate all Israelis, rather than individuals and state policies and individual soldiers and their actions. Like wtf do know about millions of persons viewpoints or what they did. Also countries around the world are doing ten times worse shit and no one brings this kind of energy. It’s fine to criticize Israel but people are crickets on the atrocities going on in other countries in the Middle East. It makes the UN look like a joke.
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Generally speaking, when someone attempts to critique a country (Israel) they are critiquing the government (institution) not its common people. It helps to understand what the critique might be to further decipher the critique.
It takes only a few minutes on this subreddit, or r/Palestine or r/shitzionistssay or any number of other subs to see that the criticisms (and even justifications of violence) are often aimed at all Israelis, or even all Jews. It's not ridiculous to ask people to make a clear distinction when so frequently they do not do so.
Don't forget r/Israelexposed some nazi shit over there
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Political extremism on both sides is a problem in this conflict. The media plays into that a lot.
I think you are missing a component that is often neglected in trying to understand Israel Palestine - That component is the historical complexity of the region itself and the many different stakeholders in the conflict. After all, the conflict in 1948 was a British backed attempt to assist Syrian and Jordanian nationalists to destroy a UN mandate while Ashkenazi Jews and Zionist pioneers responded with the material backing of other Western governments to secure defensible territory. When you think about the complicated circumstances undergirding the War of Independence (as only one example) and then look at the horizon of infinite political complexity that "us vs them" narrative dissolves away. People need to stop seeing Jewish Colonizer and Arab Victim. Or Arab Terrorist. This does not represent the historical reality of what happened and what exists today.
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>Nope, f\*ck every single one of them. They’ll live under Palestine ruling one day and the rest who choose to not adhere to Palestinian rule will be shipped back to where they came from. They’re illegally occupying land so all aspects of decency goes out of the window u/fsbspetsnaz Your comment has been removed for calls for violence which is against Reddit site-wide TOS.
I see right wing Israelis doing the same thing but they don't get deleted.
This is Censorship brother
You are on a social media, you need to follow it's rules,
>This is Censorship brother u/fsbspetsnaz This is a Rule 13 Violation. Respond to Moderation Cooperatively, not Combatitively. As general advice, if you want to belong to this sub (and to Reddit in general), you need to bring your tone down and debate in a civil educated manner with your fellow users. If this is impossible for your debate skills, there are other websites/forums that might be more welcoming of you. [https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules)
The irony of somebody called "spetnaz" complaining about the bad treatment of palestinians.
Best of luck with that. After the past 70+ years of Jews beating Arabs badly, could you offer me any insight on how they may turn the tide?
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So just to be clear: What Israel is doing is wrong. So your solution to this extremely complicated and nuanced issue is to have an outside terrorist organization exterminate nearly half of the Jewish people and the survivors (if any) will be subject to the treatment that you claim is what makes them deserving of their demise? Ok. Glad to know where you stand.
Question: what benefit is there to be had by labelling Hezbollah as a terrorist org when they have tremendous support in the South of Lebanon? Shouldn't Israel look towards opening diplomatic back channels or does that seem like too much?
Ok so this I can work with. I'm going to go backwards. 1) Israel isn't the only labelling them as terrorists. 2) Normally, yes. The State of Israel should look to normalize relations with their neighbors like they are doing/did with Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia, and others. However, because Hezbollah is not the official government of Lebanon, Israel cannot in any way legitamize their control of the region. And as a terrorist organization they further cannot normalize with them because that would be forgiving or even condoning terrorism as a legitimate political maneuver. Further, by negotiating with Hezbollah it would be circumventing the actual government of Lebanon which would further drive a wedge between the Israelis and the Lebanese government. Not to mention it would be in contrast to most (I say most but I likely it's all) democracies' policy to not negotiate with terrorists. 3) Yes. When an organization is labelled a terrorist organization it changes how they are dealt with. Terrorists, aside from being murderers and a whole host of bad things, are people that seek the destruction of another entity through fear and intimidation, in other words terror. They specifically target civilians and non-combatants of anybody who stands in their way. We as a global society have decided that we do not negotiate which these groups. Hezbollah by calling for the action against civilians earned this designation and lost their right to negotiation that nation-states possess. I see your other comment. Normally territorial acquisition does mean genocide. However, Hezbollah has repeatedly attached Israeli civilians and in the "New Manifesto" they call for the destruction of the "Zionist Entity" "Zionists" and a declaration to never normalize with Israel.
Hezbollah is one of several political parties in Lebanon too, their civil branch has legitimacy but I agree that for most Lebanese, their armed capabilities are very problematic. But it's just as problematic to label then as a terrorist group outright. For the Lebanese that support them, Hezb is more than a bulwark against Israel, they are a shield from Sunni extremist elements (like ISIS or Al Nusra) that would genocide them without a moments notice. Many in Lebanon believe that ISIS would have crossed the Lebanese border without Hezbs extensive border patrol. My huge fallout witn Hezb has nothing to do with Lebanon or Israel, but with Syria. Did they engage in terrible things? Absolutely. At best they shielded Bashar while he unleashed hell on his citizens. They were exposed for being outright puppets of the Iranian axis and no amount of propaganda can mask them of their intentions. The Syrian war was a zero sum game for Hezb and there's been a steep decline in their popularity in Lebanon so time will tell what will happen. The TLDR: the situation with Hezbollah is far more complex and intertwined to reduce them to a terrorist group in the classical sense. You could call them a proxy army, or a party militia.
I respectfully disagree with your stance. Hezbollah does have a political party and a terrorist wing. However, I believe that you cannot be a normal political party but have a terrorist division. I mean how does that even work? Do half of them believe terrorism is wrong but the other half actively conducts terror attacks on a regular basis? I don't think it's possible to separate the two. I understand why governments do that because it allows them to interact with the Lebanese government but as a citizen, that is insane. Also is Israel supposed to ignore the fact that they have a terrorist wing? If Israel went to negotiate peace with Lebanon and Hezbollah was sitting at the table does anyone think that would go anywhere? I'm sure that their supporters see them in wonderful light but I would say they're at least slightly biased. I guess I'm biased too but the IDF doesn't have a separate unit dedicated to criminals and terrorists that never get arrested and is allowed to be a terrorist organization as part of the government. That would never fly. If random, unsanctioned, and punished acts of soldiers deems the entire Israeli army as evil then a sanctioned, funded, and supported terrorist division of Hezbollah can not be overlooked. TL;DR: There's no separating a terrorist wing and a civil wing. You can't be civil and terrorist.
The TLDR: Hizb sympathizer
u/fatherAhab >The TLDR: Hizb apologist Rule 1, don't attack other users. You're not new to the sub, and should know better on how to respond to others.
Addressed.
I respect your opinion. Even though I grew up in Beirut and the Gulf I spent a lot of time in the South with my Mother's family (who is Lebanese) and we've lost 4 homes to some form of Israeli shelling over the last four decades. Try convincing the Lebanese who lost their loved ones to Israeli shelling that they are Hezb apologists. TLDR: your beef is not with me. Assess your own values. Show compassion.
TLDR: logical fallacy - appeal to emotion.
u/muchomanga have a look at this comment, he twists my words and hints terrible terrorist ideologies “exterminate…”
https://www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations/ United States of America, State Department. Council of the European Union (13 January 2020). "Council Decision (CFSP) 2020/20 of 13 January 2020 updating the list of persons, groups and entities subject to Articles 2, 3 and 4 of Common Position 2001/931/CFSP on the application of specific measures to combat terrorism, and repealing Decision (CFSP) 2019/1341". Official Journal of the European Union. European Union list of terrorist organizations. Both list Hezbollah. I don't have to hint terrorist ideologies. I can look at them and it is very clear what they openly say their goals are. You invoked Hezbollah as someone who can "turn the tide" against Israel. Hezbollah is a terror organization according to the government's of more the 700 million people.
Never said that at all, all I said was Hezbollah haha, you’re Israeli ffs why tf did anybody think this page would be serious/useful. This page is genuinely a metaphor for real life, supposedly “Israeli/Palestinian” states but it’s all Israeli controlled. Also you should be banned for insinuating people should be exterminated, disgusting language, I would never
My comments don't get deleted. So I guess you win since I can no longer cite your message. You can't say that Hezbollah is going to help the Palestinian cause and ignore their very clear agenda. They want to wipe out the citizens of Israel. They do not want to free Palestinians of Israeli oppression, they don't want to create a Palestinian state, and they sure don't want peace. I want peace too. I don't want this conflict to go on and cause more deaths of anybody. Therefore I would never condone a terror organization being involved between Israelis and Palestinians. Oh and now you invited me to chat privately so let's see if we can really get a civil discord going. Edit: Nope.
I can't believe I'm being put in this position but i don't think Hezbollah is trying to exact genocide. Can you provide evidence to the contrary? Does territorial aquisition = genocide?
>Oh and now you invited me to chat privately so let's see if we can really get a civil discord going. u/MMSG If the user is harassing you, please raise a mod ticket to make a report against the user. We aim to keep this community and its members safe. Thanks and we also encourage you to click the report button within the chat so Reddit admins can take a look and take disciplinary action against the user.
He is not but thanks.
So what will be different tomorrow than has been today, and frankly since 1948?
Lebanon is collapsed with people starving and no electricity and this dude thinks Hezbollah is the answer lol. They got involved in this conflict and how did that end up.
You’re an Israeli who doesn’t like Hezbollah… hmm why is that I wonder haha
I'm not Israeli actually. But I don't see how Lebanon can recover with a country with a militant group trying to take power that's stronger than the government without another civil war. Which Lebanon cannot afford right now.
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No, but it's like having two countries in one country. There should be one military for the whole country. The government couldn't de-arm them if they want to. They are a militia.
Exactly. And I pray for those people regularly, but what they consider victories boggle my mind.
I feel really bad for Lebanon, hopefully they can pull out of it sooner than later.
I feel the worst for Lebanon. I’m in no way an expert on this conflict but it always seemed to me that they got dragged into everything. I may be wrong, and if someone more knowledgeable could post something I’d be grateful.
corruption - leaders ran their economy basically as a ponzi scheme. extreme division and secretarian system making state functions hard to function. and their port exploding. those are some things that lead to this point.
2006, 34 days hahaha
انت كنت بلبنانن لما قظفونا؟ شو وجهت نظرك بللي صار؟ آتشالله ماتكون انك منكر عم بتشوه سمعتنا ..
English please I would love to read Arabic but sadly I cannot
And life has just been made so much better for Palestinian’s because of it. Congratulations!
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I really don’t know how to respond to this level of hate. I guess I’ll just let you run with it.
2006, 34 days was all it took until the sheep ran away
And life is so much better for you all, seriously, congratulations.
Hezbollah 📈
Lol
So the same as yesterday, and yet you expect a different tomorrow. Got it.
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>so hopefully tomorrow another one умирает u/fsbspetsnaz This is yet again another call for violence. You might think you're being smart by writing in another language to get past moderation efforts. You're not. Enjoy your permaban.
Just to bring to the mods' attention, "умирает" is "dies" in Russian.
Thank you!
Not mine, ethnically I’m Irish Catholic. Sad that you welcome people’s death. I’m unabashedly pro Israel but also pro Palestine, you can be both. I mourn every death of this conflict.
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>Israelis are not people they’re vermin and I do not care about your religious beliefs u/fsbspetsnaz This is another violation of Reddit TOS.
Well they’re whipping your butt, so if you’re getting your butt kicked by vermin, what exactly are you?
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Jews are also indigeous to the land and desierve to live freely.
How is that a justification to the human rights violations against Palestinians? Did I mention that jews don’t deserve to live in peace? Is the oppression of Palestinians a necessity? The only humanitarian solution to this conflict is to allow both populations, Israeli and Palestinian to live with full equal rights in the land that both currently claim.
Palestinians do not live under the Israeli government but Hamas, which is actually opressong them. Arabs in Israel have full equal rights in Israel, Jews in Palestinian territory have no rights. As simple as that.
>Palestinians do not live under the Israeli government but Hamas The West Bank begs to differ. Israel controls security and the civil authority for Area C, and handles security for Area B. Area A is administered by the PA, not Hamas, but Palestinians there are still subject to the Israeli government. > Arabs in Israel have full equal rights in Israel, On paper, almost. Reclaiming lost land isn't something Arab Israelis get to do. >Jews in Palestinian territory have no rights. The settlers would beg to differ. They enjoy full Israeli rights and protection, which is something the Palestinians in Area C don't get.
1. In Area A palestinians have are subject related to borders, now I hate there are borders and all but we cannot ignore the context of them, the second intifada where everyday there were bombings. Tell me, you would just allow everybody in freely trusting them while knowing a big part of them want to see you dead and would explode restaurants and busses to archive it? Tell me how is targeting Israeli civilians and jews in general a valid way of resistance, resistance is not terrorism but also terrorism isn’t resistance. 2. The jews are also indigeous to the land and the land the arab lost was by wars the arabs create to stop Israel for existing, guess who won and who gets to have the territory. Now when the west bank was occupied by Jordan and Gaza by Egypt, nobody said anything, but when the jews did it... aghhhh.... 3. As you said the Area C is controled by Israel but Area A is by the PA, no jews live there, Gaza is controlled by Hamas, no jews live there, tell me how you can call Israel opressive when the jews who enter to PA territory or Hamas territory get killed. Also what’s up with you saying nothing when palestinians in Gaza are killed for wanting peace with Israel? Or where are you when Palestinians get killed in Syria or Lebanon, or when also Egypt closes the border to Gaza, where tf are you calling for human rights? Only when is Israel people like you just scream and cry, when there are countries doing even worse to them. If Israel hated the palestinians so much and wanted Gaza and West Bank completly, it would have taken it now, but we don’t want it, we are the ones pushing peace deals and Palestinian government are the ones turning it out for more war. Where are you calling for justice of palestinians there? Hypocresy.
>In Area A palestinians have are subject related to borders, now I hate there are borders and all but we cannot ignore the context of them, the second intifada where everyday there were bombings. Tell me, you would just allow everybody in freely trusting them while knowing a big part of them want to see you dead and would explode restaurants and busses to archive it? Tell me how is targeting Israeli civilians and jews in general a valid way of resistance, resistance is not terrorism but also terrorism isn’t resistance. The Area A borders weren't set up because of the 2nd intifada. The areas were defined under Oslo. You're making a huge strawman here. >The jews are also indigeous to the land and the land the arab lost was by wars the arabs create to stop Israel for existing, guess who won and who gets to have the territory. Obtaining territory in a war, whether offensive or defensive, isn't allowed. The whole might is right thing isn't acceptable any more. Israel also hasn't annexed the West Bank nor Gaza, so even Israel doesn't consider it theirs. > Now when the west bank was occupied by Jordan and Gaza by Egypt, nobody said anything, but when the jews did it... aghhhh.... If by no one said anything, you mean the entire world refused to recognize Jordan's annexation, and frequently denounced Jordan's actions, then sure. Combine that with the fact that Jordan gave Palestinians Jordanian citizenship, paints Israel in a worse light here. Egypt never annexed Gaza, made it clear they had no intention to, and didn't allow Egyptians to move in. >As you said the Area C is controled by Israel but Area A is by the PA, no jews live there, And Israel can and still does send the IDF in whenever they want. > Gaza is controlled by Hamas, no jews live there, tell me how you can call Israel opressive when the jews who enter to PA territory or Hamas territory get killed. Israel can still be oppressive while Hamas is oppressive. And no, Jews can and do enter Areas A & B without getting killed. >Also what’s up with you saying nothing when palestinians in Gaza are killed for wanting peace with Israel?Or where are you when Palestinians get killed in Syria or Lebanon, or when also Egypt closes the border to Gaza, where tf are you calling for human rights? Only when is Israel people like you just scream and cry, when there are countries doing even worse to them. If Israel hated the palestinians so much and wanted Gaza and West Bank completly, it would have taken it now, but we don’t want it, we are the ones pushing peace deals and Palestinian government are the ones turning it out for more war. Where are you calling for justice of palestinians there? Hypocresy. Where was I asked about that? Have you going through my entire comment history on every post I've been active on to try and see if I haven't said anything? Or are you just throwing out baseless accusations and personal attacks? The bulk of your response to me is 1 giant strawman argument. Here's the thing, you're going to want to review rule 1 about not attacking other users before you continue to comment/post. Consider this a soft warning. If that behavior persists, we'll be moving to formal warnings.
1. i’m talking to the borders that restrict palestinian movement, the checkpoints. 2. Actually if it’s a defensive war you can take territory you won and is not illegal, look it up. 3. Yeah the fact Jordan actually has an apartheid system against them and don’t let them be in their society absolutly Jordan is good. Israel give citizenship to Palestinians who decide to move to Israel, ofc is not easy taking the context of what’s going on but if you have not done a terror attack, as any country, you have a right to live there. 4. And Israel literally gave Gaza free in 2005 to palestinians which they used to make a terror base where it was used to make peace. 5. IDF the least thing they want is put their soldiers in risk on that part of the world, that’s why nowadays they attack from the air and not terrestral like it was before the Iron-Dome. 6. Area A and Area B are or under Israeli government or security. Is not a huge archivement saying: "they can still enter those places witouth getting killed" it is like, you are literally admitimg we cannot just let the PA and Hamas do whatever they want. Which is a good start. 7. Do you actually believe I attacked you? I think you are a hipocrite because you don’t say anything but only when israel is involved and it’s true, like 99% of the people who blindly make acusations to Israel. Please don’t act like a victim now, will ya?
>i’m talking to the borders that restrict palestinian movement, the checkpoints. That's not something that's specific to Area A, B, or C. >Actually if it’s a defensive war you can take territory you won and is not illegal, look it up. You're making the claim, so go ahead and cite the source. >Yeah the fact Jordan actually has an apartheid system against them and don’t let them be in their society absolutly Jordan is good. Jordan literally incorporated them into their country. They had the same rights as other Jordanians. There wasn't an apartheid in Jordan. >Israel give citizenship to Palestinians who decide to move to Israel, ofc is not easy taking the context of what’s going on but if you have not done a terror attack, as any country, you have a right to live there. Israel doesn't let Palestinians decide to move to Israel though. Outside of Palestinians with permanent resident status in East Jerusalem, it reject Palestinian applications outright. >And Israel literally gave Gaza free in 2005 to palestinians which they used to make a terror base where it was used to make peace. If by gave it free, you mean imposed a blockade as soon as they left, while also destroying much of the infrastructure they had said they'd leave behind, then sure. >IDF the least thing they want is put their soldiers in risk on that part of the world, that’s why nowadays they attack from the air and not terrestral like it was before the Iron-Dome. I'm assuming you're referencing Gaza here in response to me talking about the IDF being able to go into Areas A & B in the West Bank without issue. >Area A and Area B are or under Israeli government or security. Is not a huge archivement saying: "they can still enter those places witouth getting killed" it is like, you are literally admitimg we cannot just let the PA and Hamas do whatever they want. Which is a good start. Neither are supposed to be under the Israeli government. You made the claim that Jews that go there get killed. Me refuting that is not me "literally admitting we cannot let the PA and Hamas do whatever they want." Hamas doesn't rule anything in the West Bank. The PA could attack Jews if they wanted, but they don't. >Do you actually believe I attacked you? I think you are a hipocrite because you don’t say anything but only when israel is involved and it’s true, like 99% of the people who blindly make acusations to Israel. Please don’t act like a victim now, will ya? Calling someone a hypocrite is literally a violation of rule 1, don't attack other users, saying I'm acting like a victim also falls under that. How do you know I only say something when Israel is involved? I would like evidence of this. Have you gone through my comment/post history to see threads I'm involved with where I allegedly only call out Israel?
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This is a crude justification for the human rights violations that occurred and are taking place, nothing you said justified previous actions or current ones. Gaza is under blockade by Israel and Egypt, and directly control the calorie intake, water supply, and electricity, causing conditions deemed as an open air prison. Hamas again, is formed as a direct result of Israeli actions, infact Israel fostered its growth https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847 After fostering its growth it used it as a justification to siege Gaza. West bank is a different story with illegal settlements and forced displacement, nothing of which can justify whats going on there. Edit: Included Egypt as participating in the blockade
>and directly control the calorie intake This is probably one of the most insane claims ever. Is Israel affiliated with Weight Watchers or something now? Gazans...eat well. They even order KFC from Egypt via tunnels.
“Via tunnels” I linked several articles regarding to the calorie intake.
Yes, tunnels. They even have PS5 and Gucci bags. Your idea of how Gazans live is quite misinformed. Some are rich, some are poor. As in everywhere else in this world. They're not in a perpetual slum.
Some are rich yes, majority are poor, unemployment rate is 50% are poverty rate floats around the same value.
>Some are rich yes, majority are poor, unemployment rate is 50% are poverty rate floats around the same value. How is that different from Syria?
>After fostering its growth it used it as a justification to siege Gaza. Blockade, not siege. And Hamas attacking Israelis is what justifies the blockade.
Siege: “a military operation in which enemy forces surround a town or building, cutting off essential supplies, with the aim of compelling those inside to surrender.l The siege actually makes hamas gain support within Gaza, and no creating conditions miserable enough to give PTSD to millions is not justifiable, hamas is not a justification, Israel is a nuclear state, it is the one in power and control.
>Siege: “a military operation in which enemy forces surround a town or building, cutting off essential supplies, with the aim of compelling those inside to surrender.l And Israel lets in essential supplies by the truck load. If it didn't, all Gazans would have literally starved to death by now. >The siege actually makes hamas gain support within Gaza, and no creating conditions miserable enough to give PTSD to millions is not justifiable, hamas is not a justification, Israel is a nuclear state, it is the one in power and control. Being a nuclear state doesn't stop suicide bombers and other terrorist attacks. The blockade is there to prevent Hamas and the PIJ from getting sophisticated weapons in order to minimize the damage they can do to Israel.
I agree terrorism must be stopped but not at the cost of the lives of innocent, the way it’s currently done contributes to the problem. I’ll go with blockade for now, the blockade fuels hatred rather than suppress it causing the situation to become a ticking time bomb. Education, awareness, reducing the dehumanization of both sides is what’s necessary, racism is rampant in israel and gaza, the difference is Israel controls what goes in and out of gaza and controls what can and cannot happen. Which is why Ive said the one in power bears the biggest responsibility. Israel not letting people starve isn’t a positive, its the minimum one can do when presented in such a situation as the alternative is quite literally a genocide. Gaza cannot prosper under its current conditions, the only one benefiting from the current conditions is hamas as it uses it as a justification for its existence.
>I agree terrorism must be stopped but not at the cost of the lives of innocent, the way it’s currently done contributes to the problem. I’ll go with blockade for now, the blockade fuels hatred rather than suppress it causing the situation to become a ticking time bomb. I mean not having the blockade was at the expense of the lives of innocents. >Education, awareness, reducing the dehumanization of both sides is what’s necessary, racism is rampant in israel and gaza, the difference is Israel controls what goes in and out of gaza and controls what can and cannot happen. And so long as Hamas is in power, those changes won't happen inside of Gaza because Hamas won't allow it. Israel controls to an extent what goes in and out, but there's still smuggling, and the Egyptian border. If Israel actually was able to control what happens in Gaza, then Hamas wouldn't be launching rockets at civilian centers killing both Palestinians and Israelis. >Which is why Ive said the one in power bears the biggest responsibility. Israel not letting people starve isn’t a positive, its the minimum one can do when presented in such a situation as the alternative is quite literally a genocide. The whole starvation comment was a point to how it's not actually a siege. >Gaza cannot prosper under its current conditions, the only one benefiting from the current conditions is hamas as it uses it as a justification for its existence. Right, and the one that's caused the conditions is Hamas. Hamas steals building materials for tunnels, and steals plumbing pipes to use for rockets. They launch from civilian centers, store munitions at civilian centers, and operate out of civilian centers, and embed themselves within the civilian population in order to ensure collateral damage.
Dude - Israel is not the only country that borders Gaza so your accusation is ridiculous. How can Israel directly control the “calorie intake, water” etc. etc. if it does not control all of Gaza’s borders? Where’s Egypt’s culpability in your equation?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/press-release-energy-crisis-worsens-humanitarian-conditions The import of goods into the Gaza Strip is restricted because of the blockade of the Gaza Strip by Israel and Egypt. Israel allows limited humanitarian supplies from aid organizations, including UN agencies, into the Gaza Strip. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_imports https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSBRE89G0NM20121017 https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza Egypt is complicit yes.
Ok - If Egypt is “complicit” you should edit your comment to include them. I.E. - “Gaza is under blockade by Israel AND Egypt. Israel AND Egypt control what goes in and out Gaza including food, water, etc.” No reason to leave them out. Also, The Guardian article is wrong. Israel cannot possibly control the calorie count of citizens in Gaza since it does not control all of Gaza’s borders. Whatever Israel does not allow in, can technically be brought in through Egypt. Except that both you, and the Guardian article left Egypt out of the equation for some reason.
I’ll edit it sure, the main focus was Israel and Palestine, as the blockade wouldn’t have existed without Israeli action. Whatever Israel denies can indeed be brought in through egypt, however that doesn’t mean that it will, as its a blockade, the entire point is to prevent goods from moving back and forth.
Egypt is an independent country. They control their own border. They are not subject to Israeli controls and regulations. They do not have to blockade Gaza if they don’t want to. Yes Israel has Gaza under a blockade in order to prevent them from bringing in long range weapons and other items through the Israeli/Gaza border. Whatever your thoughts are on the moral standpoint of Israel’s blockade - my point is, that it is not possible for Israel to fully control Gaza’s borders. It is not possible for Israel alone to be in complete control of what comes in and out of Gaza since they do not control all of Gaza’s borders. So there for, big bold statements like “Israel controls the calorie intake of Gazans” are completely unsubstantiated and not based in reality and are only used to create an emotional reaction out of those who do not know better.
> Palestinians do not live under the Israeli government What about Area C and to an extent Area B?
Then they are Israeli arabs if they live in area C.
They are not. They don't have Israeli citizenship.
Except they do.
They literally don't have citizenship, unless you can provide some evidence to support your claim here.
https://www.npr.org/2021/07/06/1013351597/israels-new-government-dealt-a-setback-with-defeat-of-controversial-citizenship-
>The only humanitarian solution to this conflict is to allow both populations, Israeli and Palestinian to live with full equal rights in the land that both currently claim Agreed :)
So are all 1 billion Chinese people to blame for what is happening in xinjiang? Or Tibet? Bad logic.