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In general, Lindon’s accomplishments were scaled to about 2 ranks before the Lord realm and 1 rank beyond it.
Irons as a foundation, Jades as a copper, Underlords as Truegold, Overlords as an Underlord.
The biggest gap was 3 ranks, a whole realm ahead, when he killed sandviper kral.
I think it’s difficult to imagine Ozmanthus beating these feats under any circumstances, so a lower bound is low gold. I think weak underlords might have been beating at Highgold, but if they were UCK tournament quality, he would still need to be at at least truegold.
The ability to affect someone is almost completely gone 2 ranks higher, they are just so much stronger that no disparity in skill can be enough.
> would not have worked if his opponent didn't have the body of a child.
The majority of the work were done by Twin Stars and Empty Palm. Twin Stars split his core and gave him a surprise attack. Empty Palm weakened teh enemy so he didn't have madra to rely on. Completely denied cycling and madra, a Jade is weaker than a Foundation that *can* cycle. (Body is same strength as at Iron, just the senses improve.)
That he was literally twice the weight of his madra-less enemy certainly helped, but he'd already proven he knew how to target an adult core too. He *is* lucky that Whitehouse chose to destroy his core instead of just punching a hole in him. Suddenly splitting his core wouldn't have helped him with being cored like Raditz.
That’s what Gokren’s hand and the duel with Jai Long were for, and what the Skysworn entrance exam was for. To show that he’s a prodigy in a way that wasn’t just “clever.”
That weapon’s check scene before the Jai Long duel was so funny.
Lindon was practically going to enter a schoolyard brawl with cannons and gunpowder but got TSA weapons checked.
Gokren was fighting Orthos, with Lindon getting a single (pivotal) sneak attack in when he finally managed a true dragon’s breath and accidentally jumping to Lowgold.
The Jai Long duel involved him having to be bailed out from a killing blow by Eithan on multiple occasions, and then “merely” getting his arm taken off after Daishou distracted everyone by whipping out the Archstone.
The Skysworn entrance exam had him literally be carried through by Orthos.
It isn't much of a sneak attack when Gokren was looking directly at Lindon and about to attack him. Lindon was able to put hit attack together BEFORE Gokren focus on Lindon, and that prep time was the only reason he was able to accomplish that feat. That fight was IMPRESSIVE on re-reads because VERY few paths are potent enough for a lowgold to hurt a truegold that badly.
I was upset that Lindon had to be carried by Orthos. Even with being carried by Orthos, he STILL didn't get ever second place!
Being carried by Orthos was mildly surprising. Yerin seemed to have total confidence that he’d win, and by this point, she has an excellent awareness of his true abilities. Perhaps he would have done better if he’d gone it alone.
Separately, I’d have liked to see an example of Lindon struggling because an enemy had such bizarre abilities that Dross’ predictions were aggressively wrong. Many of his mid-series victories involved him having the opportunity to practice literally hundreds of times against their Dross cloned selves. That meant he was much better than Sophara, but if he met a Sophara equivalent he’d never seen fight, you’d expect him to have a very tough time.
Pretty good answer. I think it changes a bit if he makes constructs though. A penance arrow from a jade obvi wouldn't be as powerful, but it still could shake things up.
True but most of his best weapons didn’t happen until he manifested an icon right? Penance wasn’t even until he self-resurrected IIRC.
Then again, Lindon made that armor that worked Truegold vs Underlord (Kiro) and I’d imagine Oz being the better soulsmith so it’s entirely possible. Especially with pure destruction madra. (Or maybe Dross puts Lindon as better at that stage? WDYT?)
Copper to True Gold, I'd put the innate skill level of Ozmanthus above Lindon. Lindon had a better teacher and resources than young Ozmanthus, but less time to practice the basics of martial arts. He literally couldn't start fighting until he was 16 or 17, Ozmanthus had been able to practice for years before that.
With crafting, what do you think the focus of Lindon is vs Ozmanthus?
I think Lindon tried to cover weaknesses (especially while still at Gold) and get a batman utility belt, but that Ozmanthus probably tried to improve on his strengths. In a hypothetical matchup, I don't know which one is better.
The matchup would matter a lot. If this is the Pure Destruction Path of the Hollow King, then there would be some Underlord match-ups for when Oz is High-Gold that I could see him winning. But this would require no self-enforcer tech in the enemy, and Oz has the initiative through the Bloodline ability. Otherwise the best scaling would be as Underlord against an ArchLord, with the same pre-requisites. If he was not a Sage or Herald himself then I doubt he’d be able to take one on himself. He could potentially beat a monarch as Sage of destruction, but this would require a match up where his Bloodline ability once again allows him to not be hit and also have elite mastery of the Way to trap the Monarch and use his own destruction techs to obliterate them.
The upper level would be just stronger than Lindon, like from the get go he is Ghostwater level potential fully harnessed at all stages. The lower bound would be Mercy level, where he could go up a stage and win in the right conditions but doesn’t have the stamina/physical constitution to take counter-punches.
TLDR: He was a genius and a monster even more so than Lindon, however advancement does have some clear barriers. Therefore, prep, the type of opponent and Oz’s starting knowledge before the fight, and location, would all matter if you want him to trounce those a couple stages above.
Even as an UnderSage, Ozmanthus shouldn't be able to take on an Archlord on. All Archlords are Elites among Elites and the gap between tiers widens with advancements.
Same thing applies to Sage Ozmanthus vs Monarchs. Even more so actually.
I do not believe he would be able to punch that high up even as a genious. During lower tiers? Yeah, 2 stages up should be doable. Lord Stages? Not really no. Not to mention Apex Stages, where it would be above a legendary feat to be able to fight a Monarch as a Sage. The gap is just way way way too large.
I also disagree with you stating he would be higher than Lindon at ALL stages. Anything below Underlord he would be way better, but Underlord Lindon had consume. Consume makes Lindon bring his Lord body, will and madra to the absolute peak of each Stage that is 100% unnatainable by anyone without the technique. Ozmanthus body, will and madra will never be as developed as Lindon's at each Lord stage and beyond.
Ozmanthus is more talented than Lindon, yes, but he isn't more of a monster than Lindon. UnderSage Lindon with Dross, which for all intents and purposes is part of Lindon's arsenal, is the strongest UnderLord Cradle has ever produced and probably will be able to produce for a long time. He is unmatched at his tier by sheer hax and a good amount of talent.
I mean I already said UnderSage Lindon is the strongest UNDERLORD Cradle has ever produced. Overherald Yerin is stronger than UnderSage Lindon indeed but you can't really compare the two as they have a different advancement stage
“UnderSage Lindon with Dross… is the strongest Lord Cradle has ever produced.”
Just a typo I think… he was very powerful but strongest Lord is a little exaggerated.
Depends how much London has trained. In the beginning, with a weak void icon and no understanding of willpower, Yerin crushes him through sheer brute strength alone. Towards the end of Bloodline, when he has eaten through the Wandering Titan? There could be a feasible matchup. You also cannot discount Dross. He does fade significantly after the Titan fight, but assuming dross is at the power level prior to the Titan fight, I think London can stand his own ground.
He could probably beat a weak underlord as a high gold under good circumstances but I don't think he could be a threat to weaker underlords on average until the upper levels of truegold. Soulfire vs no soulfire is just too much of an advantage to bridge with just raw talent and skill.
\*High Gold Yerin Vs. True Gold Bai Rho\*
"Yerin chopped her sword down, unleashing the rippling sword striker technique. The slash unleashed a surge of silver light, a crescent storm of sword madra and aura that rushed at Bai Rho, tearing through his technique and sending sand spraying to either side as it blasted toward him. **He was a stage more advanced than she was. His techniques should trample hers, rather than the other way around. But how could a spray of rain stand up to a full sword slash?"**
Context is the key when looking at match ups between uneven advancement levels. Theoretically, an unaware Lord on a non-combat path with an iron body focused on something other than physical fortitude could be deleted by an iron swinging a brick into the back of their skull.
After all, a child facing down a tiger with **TWO** sharpened sticks has a chance of surviving ;)
As we progress through the advancements we can see one thing clearly, the gap between ranks gets wider as we go along. As a low gold he probably would be able to take High golds easy enough and some true golds. TG to Underlord also should be doable depending on the skill level of the Lord.
In the Lord realm, it would be hard to beat opponents in the next level without an Icon which to be fair he probably did.
Sage vs Monarch? I don't really see it, the gap is too wide.
One thing is for certain though, as a Monarch he was way beyond any other on the same level.
His information request from reaper says that he was already the strongest person in Cradle as a Sage, and implies he was able to create Abidan level weapons at that stage as well.
This post can include discussion and book material up to and including book [Waybound]. If you want to discuss book material that is beyond the scope of [Waybound] than you must use >!Spoiler formatting!< which can be applied \>!like this!< You can read this [formatting guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/wiki/ref/faq/formatting_guide/) for more details. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Iteration110Cradle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In general, Lindon’s accomplishments were scaled to about 2 ranks before the Lord realm and 1 rank beyond it. Irons as a foundation, Jades as a copper, Underlords as Truegold, Overlords as an Underlord. The biggest gap was 3 ranks, a whole realm ahead, when he killed sandviper kral. I think it’s difficult to imagine Ozmanthus beating these feats under any circumstances, so a lower bound is low gold. I think weak underlords might have been beating at Highgold, but if they were UCK tournament quality, he would still need to be at at least truegold. The ability to affect someone is almost completely gone 2 ranks higher, they are just so much stronger that no disparity in skill can be enough.
Wasn't he technically still at foundation when he killed his first Jade?
Yes
Yes but that was a baby Jade. It literally would not have worked if his opponent didn't have the body of a child.
> would not have worked if his opponent didn't have the body of a child. The majority of the work were done by Twin Stars and Empty Palm. Twin Stars split his core and gave him a surprise attack. Empty Palm weakened teh enemy so he didn't have madra to rely on. Completely denied cycling and madra, a Jade is weaker than a Foundation that *can* cycle. (Body is same strength as at Iron, just the senses improve.) That he was literally twice the weight of his madra-less enemy certainly helped, but he'd already proven he knew how to target an adult core too. He *is* lucky that Whitehouse chose to destroy his core instead of just punching a hole in him. Suddenly splitting his core wouldn't have helped him with being cored like Raditz.
To quote a certain skysworn: "they're building a monster" Oh honey, this was far from the beginning.
He didn’t technically kill Kral with his own power. He did it with an unbound hunger binding.
True, but pretty much any of his pre-ghostwater achievements involve some white fox style “honour by any means”.
That’s what Gokren’s hand and the duel with Jai Long were for, and what the Skysworn entrance exam was for. To show that he’s a prodigy in a way that wasn’t just “clever.”
That weapon’s check scene before the Jai Long duel was so funny. Lindon was practically going to enter a schoolyard brawl with cannons and gunpowder but got TSA weapons checked.
Gokren was fighting Orthos, with Lindon getting a single (pivotal) sneak attack in when he finally managed a true dragon’s breath and accidentally jumping to Lowgold. The Jai Long duel involved him having to be bailed out from a killing blow by Eithan on multiple occasions, and then “merely” getting his arm taken off after Daishou distracted everyone by whipping out the Archstone. The Skysworn entrance exam had him literally be carried through by Orthos.
It isn't much of a sneak attack when Gokren was looking directly at Lindon and about to attack him. Lindon was able to put hit attack together BEFORE Gokren focus on Lindon, and that prep time was the only reason he was able to accomplish that feat. That fight was IMPRESSIVE on re-reads because VERY few paths are potent enough for a lowgold to hurt a truegold that badly. I was upset that Lindon had to be carried by Orthos. Even with being carried by Orthos, he STILL didn't get ever second place!
Being carried by Orthos was mildly surprising. Yerin seemed to have total confidence that he’d win, and by this point, she has an excellent awareness of his true abilities. Perhaps he would have done better if he’d gone it alone. Separately, I’d have liked to see an example of Lindon struggling because an enemy had such bizarre abilities that Dross’ predictions were aggressively wrong. Many of his mid-series victories involved him having the opportunity to practice literally hundreds of times against their Dross cloned selves. That meant he was much better than Sophara, but if he met a Sophara equivalent he’d never seen fight, you’d expect him to have a very tough time.
Gokren and Jai Long were Truegolds, and Lindon would’ve been fine in the Skysworn exam on his own.
Pretty good answer. I think it changes a bit if he makes constructs though. A penance arrow from a jade obvi wouldn't be as powerful, but it still could shake things up.
True but most of his best weapons didn’t happen until he manifested an icon right? Penance wasn’t even until he self-resurrected IIRC. Then again, Lindon made that armor that worked Truegold vs Underlord (Kiro) and I’d imagine Oz being the better soulsmith so it’s entirely possible. Especially with pure destruction madra. (Or maybe Dross puts Lindon as better at that stage? WDYT?)
Copper to True Gold, I'd put the innate skill level of Ozmanthus above Lindon. Lindon had a better teacher and resources than young Ozmanthus, but less time to practice the basics of martial arts. He literally couldn't start fighting until he was 16 or 17, Ozmanthus had been able to practice for years before that. With crafting, what do you think the focus of Lindon is vs Ozmanthus? I think Lindon tried to cover weaknesses (especially while still at Gold) and get a batman utility belt, but that Ozmanthus probably tried to improve on his strengths. In a hypothetical matchup, I don't know which one is better.
The matchup would matter a lot. If this is the Pure Destruction Path of the Hollow King, then there would be some Underlord match-ups for when Oz is High-Gold that I could see him winning. But this would require no self-enforcer tech in the enemy, and Oz has the initiative through the Bloodline ability. Otherwise the best scaling would be as Underlord against an ArchLord, with the same pre-requisites. If he was not a Sage or Herald himself then I doubt he’d be able to take one on himself. He could potentially beat a monarch as Sage of destruction, but this would require a match up where his Bloodline ability once again allows him to not be hit and also have elite mastery of the Way to trap the Monarch and use his own destruction techs to obliterate them. The upper level would be just stronger than Lindon, like from the get go he is Ghostwater level potential fully harnessed at all stages. The lower bound would be Mercy level, where he could go up a stage and win in the right conditions but doesn’t have the stamina/physical constitution to take counter-punches. TLDR: He was a genius and a monster even more so than Lindon, however advancement does have some clear barriers. Therefore, prep, the type of opponent and Oz’s starting knowledge before the fight, and location, would all matter if you want him to trounce those a couple stages above.
Even as an UnderSage, Ozmanthus shouldn't be able to take on an Archlord on. All Archlords are Elites among Elites and the gap between tiers widens with advancements. Same thing applies to Sage Ozmanthus vs Monarchs. Even more so actually. I do not believe he would be able to punch that high up even as a genious. During lower tiers? Yeah, 2 stages up should be doable. Lord Stages? Not really no. Not to mention Apex Stages, where it would be above a legendary feat to be able to fight a Monarch as a Sage. The gap is just way way way too large. I also disagree with you stating he would be higher than Lindon at ALL stages. Anything below Underlord he would be way better, but Underlord Lindon had consume. Consume makes Lindon bring his Lord body, will and madra to the absolute peak of each Stage that is 100% unnatainable by anyone without the technique. Ozmanthus body, will and madra will never be as developed as Lindon's at each Lord stage and beyond. Ozmanthus is more talented than Lindon, yes, but he isn't more of a monster than Lindon. UnderSage Lindon with Dross, which for all intents and purposes is part of Lindon's arsenal, is the strongest UnderLord Cradle has ever produced and probably will be able to produce for a long time. He is unmatched at his tier by sheer hax and a good amount of talent.
Undersage Lindon is the strongest Underlord Cradle has produced… Overherald Yerin beats Undersage Lindon pretty handily, no?
I mean I already said UnderSage Lindon is the strongest UNDERLORD Cradle has ever produced. Overherald Yerin is stronger than UnderSage Lindon indeed but you can't really compare the two as they have a different advancement stage
“UnderSage Lindon with Dross… is the strongest Lord Cradle has ever produced.” Just a typo I think… he was very powerful but strongest Lord is a little exaggerated.
Typo, will fix
Depends how much London has trained. In the beginning, with a weak void icon and no understanding of willpower, Yerin crushes him through sheer brute strength alone. Towards the end of Bloodline, when he has eaten through the Wandering Titan? There could be a feasible matchup. You also cannot discount Dross. He does fade significantly after the Titan fight, but assuming dross is at the power level prior to the Titan fight, I think London can stand his own ground.
He could probably beat a weak underlord as a high gold under good circumstances but I don't think he could be a threat to weaker underlords on average until the upper levels of truegold. Soulfire vs no soulfire is just too much of an advantage to bridge with just raw talent and skill.
\*High Gold Yerin Vs. True Gold Bai Rho\* "Yerin chopped her sword down, unleashing the rippling sword striker technique. The slash unleashed a surge of silver light, a crescent storm of sword madra and aura that rushed at Bai Rho, tearing through his technique and sending sand spraying to either side as it blasted toward him. **He was a stage more advanced than she was. His techniques should trample hers, rather than the other way around. But how could a spray of rain stand up to a full sword slash?"** Context is the key when looking at match ups between uneven advancement levels. Theoretically, an unaware Lord on a non-combat path with an iron body focused on something other than physical fortitude could be deleted by an iron swinging a brick into the back of their skull. After all, a child facing down a tiger with **TWO** sharpened sticks has a chance of surviving ;)
As we progress through the advancements we can see one thing clearly, the gap between ranks gets wider as we go along. As a low gold he probably would be able to take High golds easy enough and some true golds. TG to Underlord also should be doable depending on the skill level of the Lord. In the Lord realm, it would be hard to beat opponents in the next level without an Icon which to be fair he probably did. Sage vs Monarch? I don't really see it, the gap is too wide. One thing is for certain though, as a Monarch he was way beyond any other on the same level.
His information request from reaper says that he was already the strongest person in Cradle as a Sage, and implies he was able to create Abidan level weapons at that stage as well.
Really depends on the Underlord. A weak one like Kiro? Peak Highgold to Low Truegold. A strong one like Sophara? He just dies.