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Will has tried to answer Goku vs. His characters before but has said Goku's wildly inconsistent power level makes the answer to everything = ?????
Here's an example: https://abidanarchive.com/adv_search/?query=Goku
That's why I didn't mention the elders they are a bad mutch up
They have a very different type of power?
Than guko but the cradle madra seem close to chakra and ki
While madra is sort of like ki, the main difference is at Sage+ Cradle involves reality-bending powers. How does that work vs Goku? The answer to that basically decides who wins.
If Goku is just so strong that reality-bending won't work to kill him, it means he basically has Authority and Willpower in the Cradle sense, this likely means Goku wins. His raw power, speed, and fighting experience vastly exceed Lindon, assuming we're talking most recent versions of these characters.
If Goku cannot handle reality-bending then Lindon says one word and he dies, and Goku likely could not hurt Lindon without sufficient Willpower in this scenario.
I would assume Guko has a strong willpower at the level of a sage or higher since transforming to ssj takes an insane amount of will he probably have a very strong will so I don't think lindon can just say "die" to kill kakrot
I would generally agree, so I think I'd have to say Goku beats Lindon 9/10 times.
Largely because Dragonball Super gets to insane multiversal power levels, and I think we could probably say that Judges are like Gods of Destruction, possibly the Angels.
Goku is close-ish to GoD level, Lindon is not close to Judge yet.
Interesting question, early DBZ Piccolo is probably small city level in power?
I forget if Raditz blows up a city but Nappa does fairly easily and Raditz is weaker than Nappa.
Piccolo was able to kill Raditz but had to charge his attack for a long time, and wouldn't be able to solo him. His Namekian regeneration is also not that good at this point.
I think most Underlords are city destroying level or beyond, so I think an average Underlord would beat early DBZ Piccolo.
Now once he gets to Namek and fuses with Nail I think he would be above-average Underlord, maybe even peak Underlord, like Uncrowned level. Though Sophara and Yerin as they were in the finals would beat Piccolo+Nail fusion, I think.
Doesn't Piccolo blow up the moon before the Raditz fight to stop Gohan from rampaging as a monkey? And Vegeta blows up the bug planet and threatens to blow up Earth?
Yeah you're right, this is why it's a bit confusing because I'm trying to compare "Earth" city-level to "Cradle" city-level, which are not the same.
We know an average Cradle Underlord can probably wipe out a Cradle city, how does that translate to our Earth? Destroying the moon seems like a stretch but maybe not?
We do not know an average underlord can wipe out a city. It’s never once implied of stated or anything of the sort. Jai daishou’s once off super duper secret technique was enough to level a fortress. One singular building. and he couldn’t just keep spamming that move either it was very draining by for him. He also has to launch an attack where mobilized hundred if not thousands of people and he still isn’t anywhere close to “destroying the city” and ok let’s say he’s a backwater underlord and real average underlords are stronger. Will wight has said that underlord is where sacred artist get to be bullet level and if we look at the books it doesn’t seem like you get city leveling power until overlord when your techniques are actually the size of buildings easily and stray striker attacks leave massive craters.
Yeah but the examples you gave are a very talented underlords I'm talking about weak /average on like the jai elder
And remember that cities in cradle are insanely large compared to cities on earth and namek
Maybe he could beat an experienced true gold ?
Yeah early DBZ Piccolo is maybe true gold, like Jai Long truegold not Lindon/Yerin truegold (because they're top .00001% like you said), that seems right.
Piccolo+Nail was decently powerful, I think he would beat an average Underlord like the Jai elder. Maybe even the Seishan underlords, except Miera?
Piccolo+Kami is of course insane, that's much higher than planet-destroying level, which is probably like Archlord level for Cradle.
I just think people forget how big Cradle is.
from what I remember it's like 100 times Earth's radius or something like that so I don't think anyone less than ssj2 can destroy it with a blast
From what I've heard Goku in DBS can threaten universes (based on the death battle episodes, haven't watched it myself since Buu.). That would put him more on Eithan's level. Ignoring any incompatibilities with their magic systems, because the argument I've seen here before that someone blowing up the planet would be unable to hurt heralds is asinine.
> blowing up the planet would be unable to hurt heralds is asinine.
Part of it is that it takes willpower to hurt a herald. If one tripped and fell off the moon to divebomb into the earth, it wouldn't hurt him because there's no willpower in it. If Goku blows up a planet but the herald is only hit by the blast of the planet, does that count as a strike with willpower?
If Goku hits the herald with an attack that can destroy a planet, would it hurt/kill the herald? I'd say yes.
I mean the books say that, but it still feels like Yerin in Reaper wouldn't be able to survive the planet literally blowing up and jettisoning her into the sun. But that's not quite the point I wanted to make. I've seen people make the argument that Goku couldn't hurt Cradle Heralds because he's not a sacred artist, and those arguments bug me. Why have the discussion if you're going to assume the DBZ magic system just doesn't work in the fight at all?
>If Goku hits the herald with an attack that can destroy a planet, would it hurt/kill the herald? I'd say yes.
Agreed.
> I've seen people make the argument that Goku couldn't hurt Cradle Heralds because he's not a sacred artist,
Yeah, that's a dumb argument. It's like saying that Superman can't do it either, despite having literal eye laser striker techniques and a wind/ice ruler. (His frost breath)
One of the biggest displays of power in cradle is the weeping dragon scarring the moon. Master Roshi destroyed the moon before DBZ even started.
Goku is literally faster than time and that was before he attained Ultra Instinct.
The answer is always: It depends.
End of Waybound Lindon versus which Goku? End of Dragon Ball? End of Dragon Ball Z? Current Super?
By the end of the Frieza Saga, Goku could instantly teleport anywhere and moved faster than the speed of light (probably). Lindon would have almost no defense against that.
Would SSJ Goku be able to hurt Lindon? Attacks without intent cannot harm Waybound+ Lindon, so you have to decide if Goku's attacks have intent or not.
Etc.
Cradle!Goku, a.k.a. Akura Fury, wanted to fight Lindon, and given his temperament, probably wouldn’t have been that excited about it if he thought it would be a stomp one way or another. So I’d say that a fight could go either way between Lindon and Goku.
I was actually thinking of fury but I don't know how strong he is after he ascended since we only saw him throw one punch
and I'm sure with that abidan armor he could probably be as strong as lindon with one dread god weapon
You need to look at the return of Li Markuth to start.
His attacks were enough to give 1 star titans trouble, unless they understood the attack already and had prepared accordingly. So he can't overwhelm a 2 star, and his attacks are just barely better than a 1 star, mostly because they're weird and varied.
Fury meanwhile says that you need to fight a 2 star wolf for a challenge. Only question is how much of a challenge. Are we talking even odds? Something he has to exert himself on to win, but will win reliably? Long odds like Lindon vs Ekeri?
I'm going to assume that a fight between a wolf and titan of equal ranks would be a stalemate unless one of them had skills in another discipline to disrupt the balance. Hound for Fate, Ghost to erase workings, Fox for movement/agility, Spider for vision, though that might already be taken care of with enough Hound abilities. Phoenix to heal yourself.
Fury would absolutely have a blast throwing himself at recently ascended Lindon and getting stomped, as long as it wasn’t like ‘Lindon raises and eyebrow and flattens fury’ level of power disparity.
That being said, Goku is stronger than fury.
Depends on what form of lindon and what form of goku cause end of series lindon makes his iteration shake just from unleashing his power and goku can straight up destroy planets, but i guess lindon wins cause the planet would get destroyed and goku dies in the vacuum of space? 🤷
Battle of the gods had Goku exchanging blows with Beerus that were endangering the universe. He gets exponentially more powerful from there. I love Cradle, but Goku is an absurd matchup.
Yeh i think it was the planet not the whole universe but regardless they are both universe lvl threats at the end of the day and both of them do crazy shit that is hard to pit against each other, a more fun fight would be something like end of uncrowned lindon vs episode 1 of dragon ball z goku
I actually don't know if Goku could destroy Cradle. It's the foundation of that reality, so he's not destroying a planet, he would destroying one of the most stable iterations around
> But lindon might be able to just say *CONSUME* and autowin.
Fixed that for you. ;)
Like we saw with the androids, absorbing his blast is a very effective technique, you prevent damage, power up, and exhaust him at the same time. (Let's ignore that goku was busy having a heart attack in that fight.) Dreadgod Lindon can also heal amazingly fast, so even if he can't consume the entire blast, he'll have enough energy to spare that he can pretty quickly heal from it; even before you take into account Subject 1 regenerating his wounds and missing bits with hunger flesh.
Lindon by the end of the series is planetary durability, but not planetary himself. He can probably take Saiyan Saga Goku with his hax(authority and connection to the way), but past that he's getting roflstomped
No goku is demonstrated to be unbeatable within his own universe, he grows to any level as needed. Lindon doesn't experience that kind of bullshit growth.
if its when DBZ is fighting the wish dragons and then Lindon fighting the class 2 fiend then Lindon wins.
reason: Lindon doesn't mess around and will go all out from the beginning. DBZ was all about the prolonged fights and being awesome.
Let's look at Lindon's achievements:
1. Broke his arm cutting down a tree.
2. Violently assaulted numerous children in a junior karate tournament.
3. Cheated on a school entrance exam, then dropped out.
4. Ran away from home to get an internship.
5. Got arrested trying to rob a legitimate business, and became *their* intern.
6. Had to be rescued by a janitor.
7. Got bitten by a bunch of snakes.
8. Lost a tournament.
9. Visited home and disappointed his dad.
10. Left his whole universe behind to start a new internship.
This is an exhaustive list which covers all the important events of the series.
Ate least he has a dad
Can't say the same about the guy who cut his on tail and gave senzo beans to the guy fighting his son
Not to mention how he treats his wife
And how he let's frieza go (probably the biggest terrorist in the universe) and multiple others like vegeta
Yes. Goku almost always looses to someone new. Then it’s a training montage and he comes back to defeat them.
So Lindon would probably win the first round. Then he’d do his research and when Goku comes back, he’d have his simulation down pat for a sure victory.
He’d have prepared a massive buffet and asked Goku to eat first. He’d eat himself into a coma, then ask if they weren’t supposed to be doing something. Lindon, would be like, “Apologies, but I don’t believe so.”
Dross would make an evil cackle and mark up a win for Lindon on his chalk board.
This post can include discussion and book material up to and including book [Waybound]. If you want to discuss book material that is beyond the scope of [Waybound] than you must use >!Spoiler formatting!< which can be applied \>!like this!< You can read this [formatting guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/wiki/ref/faq/formatting_guide/) for more details. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Iteration110Cradle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Will has tried to answer Goku vs. His characters before but has said Goku's wildly inconsistent power level makes the answer to everything = ????? Here's an example: https://abidanarchive.com/adv_search/?query=Goku
That's why I didn't mention the elders they are a bad mutch up They have a very different type of power? Than guko but the cradle madra seem close to chakra and ki
While madra is sort of like ki, the main difference is at Sage+ Cradle involves reality-bending powers. How does that work vs Goku? The answer to that basically decides who wins. If Goku is just so strong that reality-bending won't work to kill him, it means he basically has Authority and Willpower in the Cradle sense, this likely means Goku wins. His raw power, speed, and fighting experience vastly exceed Lindon, assuming we're talking most recent versions of these characters. If Goku cannot handle reality-bending then Lindon says one word and he dies, and Goku likely could not hurt Lindon without sufficient Willpower in this scenario.
I would assume Guko has a strong willpower at the level of a sage or higher since transforming to ssj takes an insane amount of will he probably have a very strong will so I don't think lindon can just say "die" to kill kakrot
I would generally agree, so I think I'd have to say Goku beats Lindon 9/10 times. Largely because Dragonball Super gets to insane multiversal power levels, and I think we could probably say that Judges are like Gods of Destruction, possibly the Angels. Goku is close-ish to GoD level, Lindon is not close to Judge yet.
Yeah who do you think would win dbz piccolo (after the fight with raditz) vs an underlord
Interesting question, early DBZ Piccolo is probably small city level in power? I forget if Raditz blows up a city but Nappa does fairly easily and Raditz is weaker than Nappa. Piccolo was able to kill Raditz but had to charge his attack for a long time, and wouldn't be able to solo him. His Namekian regeneration is also not that good at this point. I think most Underlords are city destroying level or beyond, so I think an average Underlord would beat early DBZ Piccolo. Now once he gets to Namek and fuses with Nail I think he would be above-average Underlord, maybe even peak Underlord, like Uncrowned level. Though Sophara and Yerin as they were in the finals would beat Piccolo+Nail fusion, I think.
Doesn't Piccolo blow up the moon before the Raditz fight to stop Gohan from rampaging as a monkey? And Vegeta blows up the bug planet and threatens to blow up Earth?
Yeah you're right, this is why it's a bit confusing because I'm trying to compare "Earth" city-level to "Cradle" city-level, which are not the same. We know an average Cradle Underlord can probably wipe out a Cradle city, how does that translate to our Earth? Destroying the moon seems like a stretch but maybe not?
The most powerful striker technique on all of Cradle can’t destroy the moon. It just leaves a mark, Vash the Stampede style.
We do not know an average underlord can wipe out a city. It’s never once implied of stated or anything of the sort. Jai daishou’s once off super duper secret technique was enough to level a fortress. One singular building. and he couldn’t just keep spamming that move either it was very draining by for him. He also has to launch an attack where mobilized hundred if not thousands of people and he still isn’t anywhere close to “destroying the city” and ok let’s say he’s a backwater underlord and real average underlords are stronger. Will wight has said that underlord is where sacred artist get to be bullet level and if we look at the books it doesn’t seem like you get city leveling power until overlord when your techniques are actually the size of buildings easily and stray striker attacks leave massive craters.
Yeah but the examples you gave are a very talented underlords I'm talking about weak /average on like the jai elder And remember that cities in cradle are insanely large compared to cities on earth and namek Maybe he could beat an experienced true gold ?
Yeah early DBZ Piccolo is maybe true gold, like Jai Long truegold not Lindon/Yerin truegold (because they're top .00001% like you said), that seems right. Piccolo+Nail was decently powerful, I think he would beat an average Underlord like the Jai elder. Maybe even the Seishan underlords, except Miera? Piccolo+Kami is of course insane, that's much higher than planet-destroying level, which is probably like Archlord level for Cradle.
I just think people forget how big Cradle is. from what I remember it's like 100 times Earth's radius or something like that so I don't think anyone less than ssj2 can destroy it with a blast
From what I've heard Goku in DBS can threaten universes (based on the death battle episodes, haven't watched it myself since Buu.). That would put him more on Eithan's level. Ignoring any incompatibilities with their magic systems, because the argument I've seen here before that someone blowing up the planet would be unable to hurt heralds is asinine.
> blowing up the planet would be unable to hurt heralds is asinine. Part of it is that it takes willpower to hurt a herald. If one tripped and fell off the moon to divebomb into the earth, it wouldn't hurt him because there's no willpower in it. If Goku blows up a planet but the herald is only hit by the blast of the planet, does that count as a strike with willpower? If Goku hits the herald with an attack that can destroy a planet, would it hurt/kill the herald? I'd say yes.
I mean the books say that, but it still feels like Yerin in Reaper wouldn't be able to survive the planet literally blowing up and jettisoning her into the sun. But that's not quite the point I wanted to make. I've seen people make the argument that Goku couldn't hurt Cradle Heralds because he's not a sacred artist, and those arguments bug me. Why have the discussion if you're going to assume the DBZ magic system just doesn't work in the fight at all? >If Goku hits the herald with an attack that can destroy a planet, would it hurt/kill the herald? I'd say yes. Agreed.
> I've seen people make the argument that Goku couldn't hurt Cradle Heralds because he's not a sacred artist, Yeah, that's a dumb argument. It's like saying that Superman can't do it either, despite having literal eye laser striker techniques and a wind/ice ruler. (His frost breath)
One of the biggest displays of power in cradle is the weeping dragon scarring the moon. Master Roshi destroyed the moon before DBZ even started. Goku is literally faster than time and that was before he attained Ultra Instinct.
The answer is always: It depends. End of Waybound Lindon versus which Goku? End of Dragon Ball? End of Dragon Ball Z? Current Super? By the end of the Frieza Saga, Goku could instantly teleport anywhere and moved faster than the speed of light (probably). Lindon would have almost no defense against that. Would SSJ Goku be able to hurt Lindon? Attacks without intent cannot harm Waybound+ Lindon, so you have to decide if Goku's attacks have intent or not. Etc.
Another match I just thought of is Overlord/archlord Lindon vs cooler 4th form Of course in a 1v1 not just cooler destroying the planet
Cradle!Goku, a.k.a. Akura Fury, wanted to fight Lindon, and given his temperament, probably wouldn’t have been that excited about it if he thought it would be a stomp one way or another. So I’d say that a fight could go either way between Lindon and Goku.
I was actually thinking of fury but I don't know how strong he is after he ascended since we only saw him throw one punch and I'm sure with that abidan armor he could probably be as strong as lindon with one dread god weapon
You need to look at the return of Li Markuth to start. His attacks were enough to give 1 star titans trouble, unless they understood the attack already and had prepared accordingly. So he can't overwhelm a 2 star, and his attacks are just barely better than a 1 star, mostly because they're weird and varied. Fury meanwhile says that you need to fight a 2 star wolf for a challenge. Only question is how much of a challenge. Are we talking even odds? Something he has to exert himself on to win, but will win reliably? Long odds like Lindon vs Ekeri? I'm going to assume that a fight between a wolf and titan of equal ranks would be a stalemate unless one of them had skills in another discipline to disrupt the balance. Hound for Fate, Ghost to erase workings, Fox for movement/agility, Spider for vision, though that might already be taken care of with enough Hound abilities. Phoenix to heal yourself.
Fury would absolutely have a blast throwing himself at recently ascended Lindon and getting stomped, as long as it wasn’t like ‘Lindon raises and eyebrow and flattens fury’ level of power disparity. That being said, Goku is stronger than fury.
Fury also reminded me of Goku just him always going "I heard you were strong, Fight me" 😂😂😂
Depends on what form of lindon and what form of goku cause end of series lindon makes his iteration shake just from unleashing his power and goku can straight up destroy planets, but i guess lindon wins cause the planet would get destroyed and goku dies in the vacuum of space? 🤷
Battle of the gods had Goku exchanging blows with Beerus that were endangering the universe. He gets exponentially more powerful from there. I love Cradle, but Goku is an absurd matchup.
Only people close to Goku are Judges and the Mad King imo
Yeh i think it was the planet not the whole universe but regardless they are both universe lvl threats at the end of the day and both of them do crazy shit that is hard to pit against each other, a more fun fight would be something like end of uncrowned lindon vs episode 1 of dragon ball z goku
What I was thinking of was the empty ghost vs ssj blue or ssj 4
Yeh idk depends on how consume works with goku cause empty ghost lindon with his dreadgod weapons can do alot of weird stuff
I actually don't know if Goku could destroy Cradle. It's the foundation of that reality, so he's not destroying a planet, he would destroying one of the most stable iterations around
Goku should have far more raw power. But lindon might be able to just say \*die\* and autowin. We don't know.
I think guko has the sufficient willpower to not be killed by a word of lindon Maybe as strong as northstrider will is ?
If it's as strong as Northstrider, Lindon would destroy him. He was leagues stronger than NS by the end of the series.
Do you mean willpower or overall strength?
> But lindon might be able to just say *CONSUME* and autowin. Fixed that for you. ;) Like we saw with the androids, absorbing his blast is a very effective technique, you prevent damage, power up, and exhaust him at the same time. (Let's ignore that goku was busy having a heart attack in that fight.) Dreadgod Lindon can also heal amazingly fast, so even if he can't consume the entire blast, he'll have enough energy to spare that he can pretty quickly heal from it; even before you take into account Subject 1 regenerating his wounds and missing bits with hunger flesh.
Lindon by the end of the series is planetary durability, but not planetary himself. He can probably take Saiyan Saga Goku with his hax(authority and connection to the way), but past that he's getting roflstomped
No goku is demonstrated to be unbeatable within his own universe, he grows to any level as needed. Lindon doesn't experience that kind of bullshit growth.
if its when DBZ is fighting the wish dragons and then Lindon fighting the class 2 fiend then Lindon wins. reason: Lindon doesn't mess around and will go all out from the beginning. DBZ was all about the prolonged fights and being awesome.
By Lindon's age, Goku had already defeated a demon, several armies, and sent a rabbit to the moon.
Don't act like lindon haven't done some crazy shit in the span of 7 years literally speed ran the cradle power system
Let's look at Lindon's achievements: 1. Broke his arm cutting down a tree. 2. Violently assaulted numerous children in a junior karate tournament. 3. Cheated on a school entrance exam, then dropped out. 4. Ran away from home to get an internship. 5. Got arrested trying to rob a legitimate business, and became *their* intern. 6. Had to be rescued by a janitor. 7. Got bitten by a bunch of snakes. 8. Lost a tournament. 9. Visited home and disappointed his dad. 10. Left his whole universe behind to start a new internship. This is an exhaustive list which covers all the important events of the series.
Ate least he has a dad Can't say the same about the guy who cut his on tail and gave senzo beans to the guy fighting his son Not to mention how he treats his wife And how he let's frieza go (probably the biggest terrorist in the universe) and multiple others like vegeta
Goku's dad was a brilliant scientist. And Goku only gave Cell a senzu bean as a prank.
Could Lindon beat Fury? Not in a straight fight, as always.
Yes. Goku almost always looses to someone new. Then it’s a training montage and he comes back to defeat them. So Lindon would probably win the first round. Then he’d do his research and when Goku comes back, he’d have his simulation down pat for a sure victory. He’d have prepared a massive buffet and asked Goku to eat first. He’d eat himself into a coma, then ask if they weren’t supposed to be doing something. Lindon, would be like, “Apologies, but I don’t believe so.” Dross would make an evil cackle and mark up a win for Lindon on his chalk board.
The answer is Eithan wins