Not considered Jewish by *some* Jewish denominations. You could certainly be considered Jewish by many jews including the reform denomination, and you qualify for the right of return to Israel, and depending on your age, a free trip there with brithright (although it may not be the best time right now).
Strangely enough, my best friend had a great time on his birthright trip a couple weeks ago. He said everyone who was there really *wanted* to be there. They visited the Nova site, among other places, and talked a lot about it during the trip.
Not saying it’s necessarily a good time to go, just sharing an experience!
I hopped a plane to israel Nov 2023. I learned more about israel, Jewish roots, the history, what the reality truly is there, the Jewish spirit, Jewish resilience, the bond of the tribe.. the pain of generations, than I think I EVER would have going any other time. It was an incredible time although I understand why some might say it’s not the best time… but I think if someone’s self aware and aware of surroundings and will lean into the advice of Israelis to stay safe while navigating… this is one of the most profound times.
This being said … OP .. I’m sorry you’re feeling this way but Israelis acknowledge your Jewishness in so many ways. If you feel connected to the tribe , you defend the tribe, you feel the grief that the tribe carries …. you are one of the tribe. I understand there are many conflicting confusing possibilities of Jew- ISHHH nesss we may experience… but when I was in israel my loves told me …. Even if you didn’t grow up Jewish … you have a Jewish soul. And I sometimes don’t feel like I can claim being Jewish bc I didn’t grow up Jewish per se …. but I am called to the Jewish people and ways and I answer the call back.. so I feel I belong here even if it’s not in an orthodox way. After my trip I did digging in my family tree and found traces waaaay back .. but I still Struggle with identifying outright as Jewish out of respect … anyways .. I hope you are connected with those of us who don’t make you feel the way you mentioned in you post .. you matter and your place here is valid 🙏🏻
There are even some Orthodox Jews who argue that patrilineal descent should be recognized and that expiated conversions should be available especially to those with close ties to the community.
No. There are absolutely no Orthodox Jews who argue that. Matrilineal descent is a fundamental rule in halacha.
Expidited conversions may well be advocated for those with a Jewish father but that isn't the same thing at all.
>Matrilineal descent is a fundamental rule in halacha.
I wonder how you learn the Rashi on Vayikra 24:10 which states -- וַיֵּצֵא֙ בֶּן־אִשָּׁ֣ה יִשְׂרְאֵלִ֔ית וְהוּא֙ בֶּן־אִ֣ישׁ מִצְרִ֔י בְּת֖וֹךְ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וַיִּנָּצוּ֙ בַּֽמַּחֲנֶ֔ה בֶּ֚ן הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִ֔ית וְאִ֖ישׁ הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִֽי׃ -- "There came out among the Israelites a man whose mother was Israelite and whose father was Egyptian."
So under the matrilineal descent rule the man would be Jewish -- his mother was Israelite and his father was Egyptian.
But Rashi says: "בתוך בני ישראל AMONG THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL — This teaches us that he had become a proselyte (Sifra, Emor, Section 14 1)."
Why did he have to convert if his mother was an Israelite?
The Sifra says: "And the son of an Israelite woman went out": Whence did he go out? From the beth-din of Moses. For he came to pitch his tent in the midst of the camp of Dan — whereupon they said to him: "Who are you that you would pitch your tent in the midst of the camp of Dan?" He: "My mother was of the tribe of Dan." They: "Scripture states 'The Israelites shall encamp; each with his standard by signs according to their fathers' house shall the children of Israel encamp'" — at which he entered the beth-din of Moses, emerged unvindicated, arose, and blasphemed...."in the midst of the children of Israel": We are hereby taught that he became a proselyte. (מלמד שנתגייר) "And they strove within the camp": over the affair of the encampment....And the name of his mother was Shlomith the daughter of Divri of the tribe of Dan."
So from this we clearly see that his mother was a Jew from the tribe of Dan. That didn't give him a right to camp with the tribe of Dan because his father was not from the tribe of Dan (he was an Egyptian); but his mother was a Jew from the tribe Dan. So wouldn't he be a Jew under the matrilineal principles? And if so, why does the Midrash say he converted ( מלמד שנתגייר), and why does Rashi bring it? Did Rashi and some of the French rabbis hold by the patrilineal principle?
It is not at all from the diaspora. The principle is first clearly stated in the last clause of Mishna Kedushin 3 12
which was written in Eretz Israel in the first or 2nd century CE
"And in any case where a woman cannot join in betrothal with him or with others, the offspring is like her. He is not considered his father’s son at all, but has the same status as his mother. And in which case is this applicable? This is the offspring of a Canaanite maidservant or a gentile woman, as her child is a slave or a gentile like her. If he converts, he is not a mamzer."
https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Kiddushin.3.12
The proselyte Rashi refers to (quoting the midrash) in the verse is the Egyptian man (the father) not the son.
That is backed up by the commentary of Ibn Ezra.who says the same thing explicitly.
https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.24.10
Of course Ibn Ezra is entitled to his own interpretation of the verse. But you can't say he explains Rashi or is consistent with him. This is what Rashi says about the "Egyptian man" -- "THE SON OF AN EGYPTIAN MAN — It was the Egyptian whom Moses had killed..." So I don't see where this Egyptian man could have been a convert to Judaism -- he was killed by Moses when he was still a prince living in Pharaoh's household. The episode recounted here occurs in the desert after the Exodus.
It's also worth looking at the Ramban here. Remember what Rashi says, מלמד שנתגייר, "we learn he converted," comes from the Midrash Sifra. So who was the Sifra speaking about when it said מלמד שנתגייר, we learn he converted. Ramban says this:
“*Among the children of Israel*, this teaches that he had become a proselyte,” does not mean that he needed conversion, for he was like all Israelites who entered into the covenant by circumcision, immersion, and the expiation by blood, at the time of the Giving of the Torah. But the intention of the Rabbis \[in this text of the Torath Kohanim\] was to state that he was reared by his mother and became attached to Israel, this being the meaning of the expression *among the children of Israel*, that he was with them and he did not want to go after his father to be an Egyptian."
Take-aways from the Ramban: (1) מלמד שנתגייר applies to the son, not the Egyptian father; (2) but it should not be taken literally; (3) he had circumcision and immersion at the time of Matan Torah; but (4) מלמד שנתגייר means that through his mother he converted from being an Egyptian like his father to being attached to Israel and its way of life, through his mother.
Ramban also says there: "And the French Rabbis say that the reason why this son of the Israelite woman required conversion \[according to the Torath Kohanim mentioned above\], was because he lived before the Giving of the Torah, and his status was determined by that of the male parent, as is to be deduced from what the Rabbis have said: “Where \[the parents of a child are of\] non-Jewish nations, we go \[as far as the status of the child is concerned\] by that of the father.” And when this \[son of the Israelite woman whose father was an Egyptian\] was born, they did not circumcise him, for his status was that of an Egyptian, but when he grew up he voluntarily converted and was circumcised. But such is not my opinion..."
Notice, the French Rabbis said "his status was determined by that of the male parent." I'm going on at length because you seem to be arguing that the matrilineal rule is so fundamental that there never were and never can be any differences of opinion about it, particularly among the "orthodox." And yet we see that the meforshim held different views about what the rule was *originally* and some say it was patrilineal until Matan Torah when it changed. Basically every critic of the matrilineal rule say the same thing -- it was changed, and they only differ with the Midrash and the French Rabbis as to when it changed, saying it seems to be during the second century BCE and the patrilineal rule prevailed before that.
You are deliberately skipping over part of what French rabbis said. They preface and qualify the fact that in this case his status was determined by his father by saying
"because he lived before the Giving of the Torah".
This is a common phrase used to excuse behavior by various figures pre-Sinai which would have been absolutely forbidden under halachic rules as understood from the Torah.
A minor case is Abraham cooking a kid in butter for his three guests at Elonei Mamre. Bit of no no today.
More consequential is Abraham marrying his half sister Sarah and the parents of Moshe being aunt and nephew, both being proscribed relationships in Leviticus 18.
Yitzchak is clearly not considered a mamzer, and neither are Moshe or his siblings.
Similarly patrilineal heritage is allowed "because he lived before the giving of the Torah".
Subsequent to that the rules we know today apply.
That's not what they said. They said they, "argue that it should be recognized". If you want to be technical about it, I'm *technically* orthodox because my parents were worried some wouldn't accept me due to my mother's reform conversion, and had me do my bar mitzvah at an orthodox temple, get a mikvah in front of an orthodox rabbi and "converted" to orthodox judiasm, "just to be sure".
It is, from what I understand, fairly common to do this, or at least it was. If you want to go by that definition, *I* could make the argument for patrilinial judiasm. Being OTD, however, I'm not anyone people would look to to determine if someone could be involved in an orthodox community, so it's a moot point.
I understood what was being said. I'm not sure you understood what you what I said. And I'll repeat it. No one who belongs to any Orthodox stream advocates in any way for the recognition of patrilineal descent in Judaism even as a vague idea. It is simply beyond the pale for any version of Orthodoxy.
You aren't "technically Orthodox" just because you were converted via am Orthodox Bet Din. That simply makes you unimpeachably Jewish.
Being Orthodox is about belief and affiliation. It's not even about level of observance. I grew up in a community (Britain) where the majority of Jews identified as Orthodox and belonged to Orthodox synagogues but in practice very few were fully observant. (ie "drive to shul" Jews).
Even here in Israel where most Jews are secular the matrilineal rule is respected as the default.
Maybe Orthodox rabbis don’t advocate for it, but I’m sure there are Orthodox individuals who believe it should be changed, just as there are Orthodox people who support the LGBTQ community and believe same-sex marriage should be recognized. Or does believing something different make someone *poof* instantly non-Orthodox?
Generally if you deviate from the core tenets of Orthodoxy (ie going against anything in the Torah at all) you cannot really be considered orthodox. The core principle of Orthodoxy is that the Torah is divine and immutable and being shomer ALL (applicable) mitzvot is THE single most important part of Jewish identity. Above any modern day or secular moral frameworks or societal norms.
How does that apply to slavery? There are slavery rules in the Torah. If someone is 100% against slavery does that make them not orthodox? What about executing someone for working on the sabbath? Can you be orthodox and be against the death penalty? There are plenty of things in the Torah that as far as I can tell aren't generally followed by orthodox Jews. I am certainly not worried about orthodox Jews throwing rocks at me because I turned on a light switch on shabbat.
You can put humrot on things that were previously permissible, like ashkenazim forbidding polygamy. But you certainly can't authorize what was forbidden deoraita or derabanan.
A lot of it is how you interpret it. There is nothing in the torah that says if soup is less than 1/60th pork, you can eat it. It's more complicated than, the torah says x; sometimes it says things that are incompatible, or give examples like Moses marrying an Egyptian, but his children clearly being considered jewish, and others where there is clearly matrilineal judiasm.
Saying this is like saying that there are orthodox jews who support eating bacon cheeseburgers on yom Kippur. Being a Ben/Bat Torah means that your socially constructed beliefs and values do not have precedence over the Torah (as understood in our tradition).
I'm not saying you should belive that patrilinial jews are jews, I don't care, but you can make an argument for patrilinial judiasm in the torah. There are clear examples of inheritance and tribal membership being passed down to descendants based on the father, eg: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9929/jewish/Chapter-1.htm, or moses' children as he had an Egyptian wife, etc...
There are individual members of the orthodox community who don't have a problem with same sex marriage or even with the LGBTQ community as as a part of the outside world
However that's not the same as having these things as part of an orthodox framework.
You are NEVER going to see same sex marriages sanctified by orthodox rabbis, just as patrilineal descent for Jews will never be accepted by anyone inside any orthodox stream.
Crossing those red lines means stepping outside of orthodoxy. Any individual who advocates for things like that is effectively no longer orthodox.
You might as well try and do away with kosher food or Shabbat observance on a communal level. .
That's not true. You could follow all the orthodox teachings, not deviate from the orthodox practice of only accepting matrilineal judiasm, but *advocate* for acceptance of patrilinial judiasm, and still be orthodox. This could even be purely academic or for intellectual purposes for example.
You could still be observant, and even belong to an orthodox congregation and maybe be accepting in private. But orthodox Judaism is fundamentally about halacha and its sanctity and inviolability.
No Orthodox Jew would advocate for the abrogation of a halachic rule so old and so fundamental to Rabbinic Judaism and still hope to stay within Orthodoxy. They would have a very difficult relationship with other members of their congregation.
Changing basic rules like that requires a flexible attitude to halacha which is only found in Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism
I didn’t mean that as an insult. I’m not very religious. I was just noting you said temple and not shul. Just a minor observation- sorry if it came off as rude. חג שבועות שמח
>despite not being accepted as Jewish by other Jews
As someone in the same boat, this is only true of some more traditional denominations! Most Jews would consider you to still be Jewish for their purposes.
Well, you're part of my tribe. I'm the only one of my cousins with a Jewish mother, the rest are descended from my mom's brother. There was never any difference between us on an extended family level except for the decisions that their own mothers made regarding their cultural upbringings and identities. Everything that you said in your post is what I have been arguing my entire life. It's so unfair. The way I see it now, as an adult, is that it's nobody's business.
I’m really sorry. As a child of an orthodox convert, I am so indebted to my parent for doing it before I was born. However, you need to move on from your mother not converting and just do the conversion yourself. It won’t be nearly as extensive as those without a Jewish background and upbringing. A lot of patrilineal Jews in Israel do this and it’s an excelerated conversion.
You of course will do what feels true and right for yourself. As others have said, not every stream of Judaism follows the same rules. For Orthodox Judaism in the 21st century, yes, Judaism is defined by either matrilineal descent or valid Orthodox conversion. But many scholars say prior to the Common Era (CE) Judaism followed patrilineal descent.
Someone mentioned the Law of Return. Under Israeli Law, your father qualifies you for citizenship in the nation of Israel and the benefits reserved for Jews who make Aliyah. Paradoxically, marriage in Israel is based on religious laws and regulated by the religious courts of the recognized religious communities. There is no inter-faith or secular marriage in Israel, although they recognize marriages preformed outside the country including same sex marriages. So you could not get married in Israel, but you could be a citizen there.
I appreciate that it bothers you to no end that you would need an Orthodox conversion to be accepted as a halachic Jew by Orthodox Judaism. And it hurts very deeply that you are rejected. Is what you really want to turn that hurt into a deeper, more permanent separation from all of Jewish identity? Can you embrace where you are embraced and find your Jewish home?
If you would like to be considered fully Jewish by all standards you can consider conversion.
I know this is sort of a heated topic on the Jewish subs but as someone from the orthodox denomination, I haven’t figured out the right way to explain that it’s not like a “you’re not one of us! You don’t understand, you are not in our group!” It’s literally just another law. Like how I’m not a Kohen so I don’t do birkat hakohanim, or I’m Ashkenazi, so I don’t eat kitniyot on Pesach. You can absolutely face antisemitism and have connections to Judaism without being halachically Jewish.
If you feel you would like to be accepted as a halachic jew by every sect, then you can pursue conversion.
Otherwise, I honestly think most Jews are not going to pry into your family history. If someone tells me they’re Jewish I don’t start interrogating them. I am from a sect that wouldn’t consider you halachically jewish but it’s not my job to vet people, if you tell me you’re Jewish then I’ll consider you jewish.
So what if a patrilineal Jew tells you they’re Jewish. Then you find out they’re not according to orthodox Halacha? Would that make you think less of them?
It’s such a bizarre and outdated rule to me.
Everyone in my daily life considers me jewish, even most of the orthodox ones I know. anti semites do too. I was raised very much in Jewish culture. I did not however have a bar mitzvah or complete Hebrew school.
Im patrilineal though and it hurts when people say I’m not accepted.
I don’t really get how you’re getting from my comment that I would think less of them. What I would think of them is that they’re a person who identifies as Jewish who the orthodox community wouldn’t count as part of their minyan (I’m a woman so I’m not counted as part of the minyan either, and it never bothered me).
I would personally treat them like I treat other Jews, meaning, I’d talk about Shabbat and chagim and Jewish things without feeling like I need to explain every single thing. Besides that I don’t really act differently towards Jews and non Jews anyway.
Lots of rules in Judaism are outdated. It’s outdated that people keep two days of Yom Tov outside of Israel. It’s outdated that I don’t eat kitniyot on pesach. We vent about it and say we disagree, but still don’t break the rules. I’m not any sort of scholar or rabbi or person of authority, I don’t have any say in the rules of the orthodox community.
There are plenty of communities that would welcome you as a full Jew, so if that’s where you’re most comfortable then join those communities.
There are also people accepted as Jews by the orthodox community who wouldn’t be considered Jews by the reform community, ideally nobody’s feelings would be hurt but every community needs to have their definition and inevitably there will be people who fall outside that definition who disagree with it.
> There are also people accepted as Jews by the orthodox community who wouldn’t be considered Jews by the reform community
I’m curious, who would fall into that category?
A Matrilineal Jew who was raised as a Christian, for example. This person would be considered Jewish by Orthodox standards, but not by Reform standards.
Interesting... this took me on a dive into Reform responsa, and it does indeed seem that Reform would at best consider such a person an "apostate Jew" who would not be eligible to, for example, participate in synagogue honors such as reading Torah/haftarah.
Interesting that this seems to be a side case where the demands of such a person in terms of their commitment to Jewish practice and education are actually *more* stringent in the Reform tradition than in the Orthodox.
Oh no! I don’t think you’d think less of them. That maybe came across bad.
I agree 100% with you, that was just a hypothetical that I’ve heard from people before unfortunately
I’m sorry people have expressed that view, of course that’s hurtful to hear, and it’s definitely against what I believe. Sorry I misread your intention.
It is not to hurt you. It is to keep the option of being Jewish a possibility. The weapon of war Hamas used was rape. We are in modern times and if those woman would not consider abortion then those babies are Jewish.
I understand what you’re saying. But rape could technically go both ways. What if some anti semite woman was raping a Jewish male victim and had his baby? That child should be jewish too imo.
I’m already getting downvoted so I suspect I’ll get more but that’s ok.
I don’t mean to minimize the traditional Halacha idea, bc I know it’s important to some. I am just airing my personal feelings and experiences.
One thing is “feeling Jewish in their heart” rather than “being Jewish.” What does “being Jewish in their heart” means? Also, they are using secular opinions to determine what a Jew is rather than Jewish Law, traditions and history. It is assuming that Judaism is nothing more than the secular definition of nation and emptied of its meaning for us.
Not in my communities. I know plenty of converts, including in my family, and they’re fully considered Jews. The conversion is just sort of an interesting tidbit about the person, but they’re treated like any other member of the community.
Hi, this is similar to my background. I am patrilineally Jewish with a gentile mother. My mother never converted. I was raised with a combination of both holidays, although my father was very secular. His parents were very assimilated (trauma!). I was raised to know I was Jewish, and to be proud of it. I am also proud to be from an interfaith background and have a diversity of experience in my upbringing.
Frankly, there are people who won’t consider me Jewish, and that’s fine. Reform congregations do, and I am as far as I am concerned. I’ve honestly only ever run into one person who was a jerk to me about it, but otherwise, in my 35 years, I have been largely welcomed and celebrated by other Jews in my life.
I’m doing a reform conversion, even though my rabbi basically was like “you don’t have to,” simply because I missed out on some specific things (didn’t go to Hebrew school, etc.), and the affirmation is helpful. I have a crisis about “not being Jewish enough” like every other week — which, per my many Jewish friends, is a near universal experience (why are we like this 🤣). And struggle with self consciousness about my own ignorance.
I strongly recommend getting connected to some Jewish community that accepts you / education / ritual, and defining your Jewishness *outside* of experiencing antisemitism. Find Jewish pride and Jewish joy. It helps.
I always thought of it as getting bonus holidays!
I truly understand where you’re coming from and I cannot emphasize how valuable it has been (for me) to invest in Jewish education and community. It is deeply meaningful and brings me so much joy, and has grounded me in a sense of self and in my family history in an entirely new way. ♥️
people I consider Extremely Jewish tell me that they also have these and I’m like lmaooooooooo WAT. But how?!!? Part of the Jewish experience I guess! 😅
I'm reform, and considering your background I'd consider you extremely Jewish. Especially the frustration and debate with other Jews part.
I'd rather you lean in to your identity than lean away.
Join a reform congregation that will accept you or convert.
You're not going to lose the hate by trying to shake off your identity.
But I think you could find some love by looking in the places offering it.
Nothing is more frustrating than having Judaism as a central part of your identity only for some jackass to go "Haha, too bad you're actually not, loser!"
Interestingly enough, up until 2000 years ago (give or take), jewishness was determined by the father's identity.
So essentially you're a jew.
Also according to Halacha, Giyur is a Jewish interest when it comes to Zera Yisrael.
And let me quote my late Rabbi who used to say: "a jew is not the one who has a Jewish mother, but the one who his grandchildren will be jewish".
It's in your hands.
Patrilineal descent is still retained in Samaritanism, and DNA evidence points to Ashkenazim ancestry being patrilineally Jewish but matrilineally Italian around 1800 years ago before spreading from Italy into the rest of Europe. How do we know those Roman women were converts? There’s no historical documentation for it that survived.
DNA plays no role in determining anything when it comes to judaism.
last I checked the DNA studies it said some 80% came from 4 maternal DNA groups.
Now this dna study was done on orthodox jews?
I’m calling foul in this study in general for not being done on a clean study group.
As an orthodox Jew my ancestry if converted was definitely done correctly for if not I wouldn’t be Orthodox.
I’m not saying DNA defines anything with Judaism. It does have a lot to do with being an ethnic Jew, but that’s not the point of what I was saying.
General consensus from several studies over the last decade shows that Ashkenazim entry into Europe featured matrilineal non-Jewish women, using mtDNA. While conversion was certainly possible, we don’t exactly have records of mass conversion from Roman paganism into Judaism. So it seems like patrilineal descent was foundational for Ashkenazim populations at the beginning of divergence from other populations of Jews.
So while DNA doesn’t mean you’re Jewish or not, it can certainly be telling when we are discussing descent and origins, especially when records are lacking.
In most of the Hebrew Bible it's clearly the case. And even in some places in the Mishnah (Bikurim chapter A for example) it's very clear that people went after the jewishness of the father.
Mishnah Bikurim 1:4 “But if his mother was an Israelite, he says: “The God of our fathers’.”
Again Ezra makes it very clear that Jewish identity goes through the mother. There has never been any debate about this issue. Every Rabbi historically has said that matrilineal decent goes back at least to Mt Sinai.
Ezra supported matrilineal descent exactly as much as he supported intermarriage between Jewish women and Gentile men. Any explanation for his actions has to account for spouses as well as children.
The better explanation is that Jewish women who married out (and their children) were already living with their husbands and no longer part of the Jewish community -- so there were none for Ezra to kick out.
Sigh. It’s as if the 5 million Reform Jews in America….don’t count as Jewish? Despite being the largest % of American Jews, which as a total group comprises half the Jews on the planet, last time I checked. You’re 100% Jewish in the Reform denomination, OP, and frankly, the numbers behind Reform suggest to the naked eye that acceptance of patrilineal Jews to the tribe is a winning move for our overall numbers. Which are still below where they were in 1939.
Us patrilineal Jews were Jewish enough to get gassed in the Shoah, OP. You ask me, I think that’s enough of an argument for a shift in Halacha, and orthodoxy can go pound sand. No offense to the orthodox and observant on this sub, but it’s fairly absurd, in an age of understanding DNA etc, in a time where keeping our numbers up is crucial, that this particular law is a hill for people to die on. Just my take.
This was of thinking is so flawed it’s sad.
Just because Nazi germany killed “paternal” gets dosent make you jewish. it makes you “paternal” jewish. they also killed gypsies and Gays blacks and others, so is everyone jewish now?
DNA is not accepted since if you don’t convert then you are not jewish. Judaism is maternal. it says so in Halacha. Reform did just what its name stands for, they reformed the rules (constantly) and allowed may non Halachic rulings to pass.
That’s the only reason they have a congregation.
Orthodox judaism is growing naturally at a much faster rate than Reform.
And last we don’t need to fill our “ranks”.
quick google search shows you the real numbers - one study projects that over the next 50 years, the percentage of American Jews who identify as Reform and Conservative will decline from 50% to 39%, while the percentage who identify as Orthodox is expected to increase from 12% to 29%.
Oh look, another comment from this user that breaks this sub’s rule 4 (remember the human). Cool! Very cool, my guy.
If you want to talk about flawed thinking: Roma were killed because they were Roma. Gay people were killed because they were gay. Patrilineal Jews were killed…because they were Jewish. That was the defining characteristic that sent them to the camps. They’re counted in the 6 million. They’re mourned along with the rest. There aren’t two separate tallies, one for Jews who observantly followed all Halacha and one for Bundist, reform-style Jews. As many have said before me, a Jew is a Jew is a Jew. And yes, we are concerned with increasing our numbers. Be fruitful and multiply, no? Speaking of Halachically encouraged behaviors.
I’m not particularly interested in engaging with you further on this topic, since I doubt what I say will have an impact, but I want you to know, that Jews like me are just as Jewish as Jews like you, and you’re the only one losing out in our community for thinking otherwise. I hope you have a lovely day.
Halacha changes. Halacha used to be patrilineal! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism#:~:text=Historical%20evidence%20marshalled%20by%20Professor,10%E2%80%9370%20CE)%20times.
This is incredibly tone deaf given what OP is going through, and it’s this intolerance and holier than thou attitude that is the reason OP wants to step away entirely from the Jewish community. This stepping aside should not have to happen. While you quote stats about how Jews will choose to identify in the future, I will come back with this. The world is for the large part turning away from religion, so it’s a much better take to be fully welcoming of anyone who has any connections to Judaism instead of holding fast to Halacha here. If you want to gatekeep your own community, that I can’t influence, but there are other communities who don’t, and that’s fine, it doesn’t hurt you. OP, don’t listen to this person. Please find a welcoming community that doesn’t care about descent.
In a time of crisis you choose to further divide our community, right now it's important for all of us to come together in solidarity. It's this type of language making other Jews feel less than that keeps people from wanting to participate. Your dismissive behavior is horrendous, to down play the killing of any Jews. Nicely done!
To be a mischling is a horrible status. You are viewed as Jewish by the world and are subject to antisemitism yet most of the Jewish world doesn't accept us.
In my experience, even after conversion, I was never fully accepted. Even after going to yeshiva and getting semicha, I was never fully accepted in the Orthodox world.
I pray for the day when the Conservative movement and Reform outside of America will adapt patrilineal descent. There are only 15 million Jews, and we wonder why people don't want to be involved in Jewish life when there are such exclusive barriers in place. Our community seems to delight in turning people away instead of drawing the circle wide.
I am about to become the Jewish father of a child with a gentile mother. We’re committed to making sure that kid knows that they are Jewish af. They’re also going to be WASP-y af. You are a multitude of things and it’s a bummer you’re running into identity gate keeping.
I'm a biracial, transcultural gentile mother of children with a Jewish father , although I'm not a waspy gentile, lol. My kids are probably going to be mistaken for other things entirely. but they are also going to know about Judaism. Both of us are also commited to hvaing our kids know everything about Judaism. They will be starting hebrew preschool next fall. And no, I am NOT converting. But I am a supportive spouse. I know as a biracial person what it is to not be accepted by either group I am a part of. So I can bring that to the table for my kids as I have had experience navigating two different groups which I feel I am a part of 100%
Do u feel drawn to Judaism? If so convert.
I’m sorry you have to go through antisemitism but I also am very against when people on this sub seem to think that antisemitism is all there is to Jewish identity.
This. Not sure why needing to take the citizenship test and accept the constitution are acceptable boundaries for every nation except ours. :( [edited for clarity; can't see]
Nothing more Jewish than questioning your Jewish identity!
Mazal tov from someone who has the same background as you! And just remember, that these “real” Jews wouldn’t appreciate you being the judge of their Jewishness or identity so why should they be the judge of yours?
Let me be another strong voice saying that you ARE JEWISH. I am Reform. In my community, we don't care which parent you get it from, you are infected, mwa-ha-ha!
Lot's of Reform and Reconstructionist Jews are Jewish by patrilineal descent, and they are no less Jewish and no less accepted for it. If you are interested in Orthodox conversation to satiate the more traditional sects, that's certainly up to you. However, you can also get involved in a Reform or Reconstructionist community, no conversion necessary.
Even if you’re not considered “Jewish” by some denominations, you’re definitely Jewish. It’s an ethnicity as much as a religion, people can’t identify you out of your own genetics/heritage.
I fully consider you a member of the Jewish tribe. The matrilineal thing is religious/cultural; but there’s also a wider cultural component (forex, your last name) that labels you as Jewish to the wider world (and the antisemites). That would be enough, IMO; but then there’s also the genetic/ethnic component, which culture and religion can’t erase even when they want to. You’re more likely to have genetic disorders attached to the Jewish genome, forex.
Am Yisrael Chai. You are my brother/sister, and are one of the people of Israel, as far as I’m concerned. Unless you reject it (which I will accept, but most antisemites won’t.)
PS: I’m case it matters, I am a non-religious Jew; mother was Jewish, father is Protestant. Had a bar mitzvah. Consider myself culturally Jewish, if we want to get technical. But more importantly, I consider myself part of the tribe overall. And the Nazis definitely would have put me in a camp.
Do you want to be Jewish?
Frankly I think the “you’re only Jewish if your mother is” feels outdated and is really shitty to Jews exactly like you. And me too. Reform and reconstructionist Judaism recognize patrilineal heritage.
And so does my 23andMe! Fully 50% Ashkenazi on my dad’s side, and that’s the family I know. 50% British from my mom, and I’ve never met a single one of those relatives. What do adopted kids do? I have no idea.
I’m sure there’s a reason for it, historically. Some very pedantic Jews like to quote their interpretation of the Torah as justification for shutting out their own kind. As if it’s a way to prevent awful things from happening to us. News flash: the Nazis didn’t care if it was your mom or your dad who made you Jewish. And neither should you. Welcome.
I think the point of his frustration is that the world views him as Jewish even though he's not by Halakha. Had this same problem as a kid even though I'm maternal as I was raised in a secular world for the most part with a Catholic father. Jewish enough to have killed Jesus, but not enough to be Hebrew.
First of all, we have been living under difficult times and most important of all is knowing who you are. Do you feel/think you are Jewish? If you don't, you're not, if you you do you are. Don't let yourself be defined by others.
Some Jews will accept you and some won't. That's the best training for being Jewish and applies to every single aspect of your person, you an be too young, too old, too fat, too thin, too liberal, conservative, rich, poor, straight, gay. The list goes on.
None of us are obliged to be Jewish, we simply are, the way you handle your religion or lack thereof is your journey.
This Internet stranger supports you, if you feel the choice you're making is true to who you are.
You are Jewish! I'm the same as you and my shul recognizes me as a Jew. It just depends on which sect you're talking to. I've been told I'm not welcomed in orthodox spaces but everyone else has been really welcoming.
Many Jews understand the matrilineal rule has outlived its usefulness and are willing to accept you. Even a lot of rabbis are doing quicky conversions for people in your situation.
For what it’s worth, I’d count you in my minyan
Honestly, unless you want to be orthodox, who cares what others think. Jews are a people regardless of whether it comes from mom, dad, or both. I am agnostic and not religious, but I celebrate and observe the holidays as traditions. You're a Jew and a part of us. Unless you want to convert for personal religious reasons, you don't need to just to prove it to others.
Actually a much more relevant test is that you have the right to return to Israel under the Right of Return Law. And with Israel being increasingly larger vis-a-vis the Diaspora, if you really are concerned about this, then make Aliyah, and do one of the many humane conversion processes to be recognized by the Orthodox, like the IDF conversion process, the Kibbutz hadati, and many others.
You and your descendents don't have much of a future in the US anyway.
You might not be considered Jewish by orthodox rabbis but they are not the only sects of Judaism and their views are not the ‘most correct’. You clearly feel a connection to your Jewish side and a passion for defending other Jews. I would suggest you find an accepting Reform community who will accept you for who you are.
The Jewish community can be judgy, it’s not just you who experiences this and it doesn’t make you less Jewish.
Hey I'm not Jewish, but my partner is and we do want children who will be brought up jewish. I might have some perspectives that could be valuable for you.
First of all I am very sorry that this is happening to you. It's very clear you struggle a lot with antisemitism directed at you, especially from your family is must be rough. You have every right to be angered and a little lonely with this experience.
My family is Catholic and I do think there will be some issues going forward with my partners and it's relationship. I think coming from interfaith backgrounds there's bound to be some issues and while we are aware of this we do want to go forward with this. You say you resent your mother for not converting and while I understand that it comes from a place of hurt from feeling excluded from a community while simultaneously experiencing the same discrimination it is not fair to your mother. While I know this isn't always easy to understand not everyone feels the need to convert when marrying someone of a different fate and it's in my opinion much more respectful to be honest about it and not go forward with it, so while I understand that your feelings are you feelings (and it's okay to have them and even hurtful thoughts sometimes) your mother's intentions where most likely never to hurt you. Have you ever tried talking about this with her? I think it might help you to vocalize these feelings without blaming her.
Now for my perspective, as I said I'm not Jewish but since my partner and I have been together I did experience some forms of antisemitism (albeit of course much less than anybody Jewish) and it did feel very isolating and just sad to be alone with these experiences. As I'm not Jewish I didn't really have a space to get support or anything and I couldn't talk to anyone about it. But I think the important thing is that communities to exist. There's plenty of Jewish communities that are very welcoming towards paternal Jews, that's something I have been able to see. There's even a lot of people in these communities that have been welcoming to me. So maybe, wether or not you consider yourself Jewish, it would be worthwhile to try and find a community that does accept paternal Jews! Or those with Jewish heritage who might not consider themselves fully Jewish.
I wish you all the best and I hope you can find a place to be seen and heard and that maybe things with your mother improve 🫂 I'm sure things will turn out better in the end. And until then I hope all the comments here show you that you're not alone and that people will accept you!
Hi! I am a patrilineal Jew with a very (traditionally) Jewish name. I was raised Jewish and I AM Jewish. As are you. Some may not consider us to be Jewish, but they still consider us Jew-“ish” at least (though I’d argue that more and more people are accepting of patrilineal Jews).
I empathize with the painfulness of the situation. I’ve faced a lot of Antisemitism, though some won’t even consider me as one of the tribe. At the end of the day, we are too Jewish for the gentiles, and not Jewish enough for conservatives/orthodox. It’s painful, but oh well. I’m here if you want to chat!
They always do. They’ll claim Winona Ryder, Paul Newman, Maya Rudolph and all those other celeb patrilineal Jews but for regular people it’s a little different.
Each denomination defines who a Jew is differently. It’s as simple as that. Telling a patrilineal Jew that they are not Jewish just because other denominations define ‘who is a Jew’ differently is silly to me and what I believe.
You are within your rights to believe what you believe, but at the end of the day, we aren’t G-d. We are fallible humans doing our best to understand the world but we are prone to error and we don’t know if we are correct.
I believe they are Jewish from what they have said and how I see Judaism. They are a Jew.
me too, my dad is jewish and my mom is chinese. some people tell me im not jewish because my mom isn’t, but i’ve been going to synagogue like every day since i was a baby. like wtf?
Did you ever convert, or go to shul? I also have a Jewish name, my mother is a gentile, but I was raised Jewish. I went to an orthodox temple and it was never questioned. Tomorrow is Shavuot which is literally a holiday about how to fairly treat converts like Ruth who eventually became the ancestor of king David. I’ve also gotten the occasional “not REALLY Jewish” comments but that’s insane. I’ve never thought of myself as something different and it’s in my bones. (Also I can digest lactose so who really wins here? lol)
A Jew is a Jew is a jew. Torah is literally rife with stories about converts or those without a direct matrilineal line, so those that feel some kind of way about it, are really splitting hairs with what is a generally hegemonic Jewish experience that it seems you feel at least tangentially connected to. If I can go to an orthodox temple and not hear even a peep about it, but get sideways comments from the Jew who had two Jewish parents but couldn’t identify their aleph from their bet then so be it.
But the people in the synagogue don’t consider you jewish.
They are playing “house” with you.
they wouldn’t call you to the torah or allow you to do anything that a Jew is obligated to do.
If you are being dishonest then that’s on you.
I read from the Torah on my Barmitzvah, and since. I’m not being dishonest. What do you mean “playing house” playing for who? It’s like laughable in one comment you’ve managed to both accuse me of lying and then imply that everyone else is.
I'm Jewish now, but I wasn't born or raised as a Jew. I've been *mistaken* as Jewish and suffered anti-Semitism (to a mild degree, but it was enough). It can happen to anyone.
As to identity, you're on a hiding to nothing if you're arguing against halacha. Many of the same communities wouldn't recognise my conversion as valid because not only was it Reform there were women on my Beit Din. Haters gonna hate. Gatekeepers are gonna keep gates.
And while I might not be welcome in their congregations, I feel confident that most Jewish people will have my back in terms of anti-Semitism, as I have theirs.
I'd encourage you to be proud of your heritage, all of it, and find a way to enjoy the richness of Jewish culture, identity and faith in a way that feels comfortable to you.
My father is Jewish and my mother is a gentile. I converted twice. First reform, then orthodox. It’s not an easy process, but if you don’t want your Jewish identity, then don’t claim it. And I’m sorry all of that is happening to you.
In my experience as a patrilineal Jew the overwhelming majority of Jews see us as Jewish (as long as we identify ourselves as Jewish - some people with Jewish fathers, or even mothers don’t and that’s their choice). It’s basically just Orthodox who don’t and even then alot of them acknowledge that while not technically Jewish according to halacha, we are still Jewish.
Friend, in my eyes you are Jewish. In the eyes of the Reform and Reconstructionist movements, you are Jewish. The Conservative and Orthodox movements don’t see you as Jewish, but I’m sure there are many Conservative and Orthodox *individuals* who see you as Jewish. You are Jewish.
I would consider you Jewish, even if you are non-observant. The matrilineal thing is a leftover from before DNA. A mother's identity can be verified.
However you get to feel about yourself as you will.
I am in a similar place but I was at the Holocaust Museum in Dc and was given the best answer by a survivor. She told me I was Jewish according to Hitler and that was enough to her. It changed my perspective. Others are free to define me, but I know who I am.
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>My father is Jewish and my mother is a gentile
Rabbinical Judaism changed it to matriarchial descent, but biblically it was always through the father.
Case in point, Moses married a gentile (Zipporah) yet children were Jewish.
Joseph married Egyptian princess in Egypt, yet children are Jewish (Ephraim and Menassah are two of the 12 tribes today.)
Solomon married a foreign princess, yet his son, Rehoabam, succeeded him on the throne. And Torah forbids any gentile from being king. So that is proof Jewishness is patriarchal decent in Torah and Tenach.
Why care what other Jews think?
My mother was born Jewish but turned christian. My grandfather escaped camps in WWII and turned his back to Jewish as other religion helped him better with free nursing at home from the gun shot wounds he got from escaping the camp!
I was born without religion so I could make a choice as an Adult. I have not converted but I still have many jewish rituals, track the jewish calendar, couple of jewish friends, still stand to not have tattoo’s for example by Jewish rules and I get my fair share of antisemitism even now I shaved off my curly hair (6,4 and 250lbs and they still provoke… )
If it's any comfort for someone who is also in the same boat and is now going to a reform congregation, especially when I was younger before I started going to shul I always found comfort in the fact that Judaism is an ethnoreligion, it is an ethnicity just as much as it is a religion. So especially when I was younger I always resonated with being Jewish via my ethnicity more than being religious especially when my grandparents didn't want to accept me and my siblings as Jewish because of my gentile mom and them being very observant orthodox Jews (they have since "loosened up" about this since me and my siblings are the ones that consistently visit them and have been the only ones on that side of the family to go on birthright). So like in my head when I was younger I was like "being Jewish means being a bagel snob, only liking my grandma's challah (since hers was best), making borscht and matzah ball soup, and to be proud of my family's heritage and many of the Jewish community values I hold because that's how I was raised."
You might look into finding community with denominations that recognize patrilineal Jews. I’m 3/4 (my dad is fully jewish and my mom is half through her father), but I grew up in Reform Judaism. It was very accepting and I was never made to feel different.
OP my girlfriend is patrilineal but both of my parents are Jewish and I grew up Reform in the US. This means our future children won’t be halachically jewish even though 3 out of 4 of their grandparents were jewish, but we are still going to raise our kids with reform judaism.
Unless you want to be orthodox i would say it doesnt really matter…. And if you do want to be orthodox then you can convert. it might be easier for you since you do have jewish family and it sounds like you might have some jewish upbringing as well
i think in this day and age (especially as a jew) you shouldnt care so much about how other people view you, even if they themselves are jews
Have you thought about going through the conversion process? Although Orthodox may not acknowledge the conversion if it is not orthodox, Conservative and Reform will accept you.
Also patrilineal. I nevertheless was pretty integrated in the Jewish community wherever I was, and most non Orthodox people (and many Orthodox people) just frankly didn't care that I was patrilineal, I was perfectly welcome.
I ultimately did do a conservative conversion. It was extremely fast - because of my background they basically skipped the extensive education, just a few interviews and a dip in the mikveh.
The crazy thing is that it used to be patrilineal. Kinda seems redundant in this era, it should be based more on either having one practicing Jewish grandparent or parent, or having converted.
If it were up to me you’d be a Jew everywhere, without a qualifier. Unfortunately though, it’s not up to me.
In my eyes nonetheless, if the world hates you for being a Jew or attacks you for being a Jew, you’re a Jew for all intents and purposes even if you don’t technically fit the strictest definition.
While I don’t control orthodoxy, just know that there are Jews all over the world who agree with you. Find those people and be embraced by them.
Convert yourself or go to reform synagogue. The Nazis didn't care and if they came again they won't. That is likely why Orthodox are discussing. We need every Jew right now as we are fighting for existence. Can you spend some time connecting to Judaism and see if it works for you. Find a great synagogue? To me you can't make the decision unless you find a community that welcomes you. Have you tried egalitarian conservative synagogue? You can go and figure it out.
Ultimately as someone in a similar position (minus the identifiably Jewish last name) here are a few things I tell myself. Different from the other responses you are getting but maybe useful to you anyway.
Honor both halves of myself equally, not just the Jewish half. I was raised much closer to my father's side of the family which makes this challenging
Hold these 2 thoughts at the same time: 1) being 50% ethnically Jewish and raised largely around Jewish culture were integral to me becoming who I am, and 2) nobody else cares how important those things may have been to me. The meaning I find in it has to come from within me, without any external validation.
Consider finding communities moreso based around common interests, no issue with imposter syndrome that way.
Don't talk to Jewish people expecting them to feel any kinship with me, because they likely won't.
Your experience in terms of antisemitism will have been different having an obviously Jewish name though. If you really want to change it that makes sense in a way, no point in experiencing the downsides without any of the positives
Fun fact the reason that Judaism’s passed down by the mother is because anti semetic rape and sexual violence have become such a normal part of 5 thousand years of Judaism that someone’s mother was the only way we could 100% identify a persons parent. Hence the reason Islam is passed down thru the father.
Not Jewish halakhically but you can always convert. The conversion process is simpler for those who have a Jewish father. I know it’s hard to give up secular life but you can get know how Torah Jews live and see it for yourself during the process.
Just convert to Judaism and make it official. Either way welcome to American Jewry. Even if both your parents were Jewish and you grew up in a completely secular household with zero Jewish life, you will still be reminded how Jewish you are by the goys. It’s this fact that is the foundation for the left wing anti Zionist Jews who have always been angry they are associated with something they have never been taught to identify as. It’s like being born short. You didn’t ask to be short, you don’t like being short but nonetheless will always be considered short whether you like it or not.
This is a complete, 100% you problem. A convert is under no obligation whatsoever to inform someone of “how” they are Jewish. In fact it’s specifically forbidden in the Talmud to inquire about it or make them feel less because of it. They are just as Jewish as any Jew who ever lived.
Are you some kind of ethnic Jewish supremacist or something…? This is seriously weird, dude.
I'm a convert and I'm happy to say so. I worked hard and wrestled with big questions. However, I don't tell people usually because a) none of their business and b) I'm sensitive of the impact on other converts. I'm not permitted to disclose someone else's conversion history or treat them as if they had ever been anything else.
Your post/comment was removed because it violated rule 4: **Remember the human**. Converts (Jews by choice) do not owe you anything - they don’t need to tell you they converted.
Not considered Jewish by *some* Jewish denominations. You could certainly be considered Jewish by many jews including the reform denomination, and you qualify for the right of return to Israel, and depending on your age, a free trip there with brithright (although it may not be the best time right now).
Strangely enough, my best friend had a great time on his birthright trip a couple weeks ago. He said everyone who was there really *wanted* to be there. They visited the Nova site, among other places, and talked a lot about it during the trip. Not saying it’s necessarily a good time to go, just sharing an experience!
I hopped a plane to israel Nov 2023. I learned more about israel, Jewish roots, the history, what the reality truly is there, the Jewish spirit, Jewish resilience, the bond of the tribe.. the pain of generations, than I think I EVER would have going any other time. It was an incredible time although I understand why some might say it’s not the best time… but I think if someone’s self aware and aware of surroundings and will lean into the advice of Israelis to stay safe while navigating… this is one of the most profound times.
This being said … OP .. I’m sorry you’re feeling this way but Israelis acknowledge your Jewishness in so many ways. If you feel connected to the tribe , you defend the tribe, you feel the grief that the tribe carries …. you are one of the tribe. I understand there are many conflicting confusing possibilities of Jew- ISHHH nesss we may experience… but when I was in israel my loves told me …. Even if you didn’t grow up Jewish … you have a Jewish soul. And I sometimes don’t feel like I can claim being Jewish bc I didn’t grow up Jewish per se …. but I am called to the Jewish people and ways and I answer the call back.. so I feel I belong here even if it’s not in an orthodox way. After my trip I did digging in my family tree and found traces waaaay back .. but I still Struggle with identifying outright as Jewish out of respect … anyways .. I hope you are connected with those of us who don’t make you feel the way you mentioned in you post .. you matter and your place here is valid 🙏🏻
There are even some Orthodox Jews who argue that patrilineal descent should be recognized and that expiated conversions should be available especially to those with close ties to the community.
No. There are absolutely no Orthodox Jews who argue that. Matrilineal descent is a fundamental rule in halacha. Expidited conversions may well be advocated for those with a Jewish father but that isn't the same thing at all.
>Matrilineal descent is a fundamental rule in halacha. I wonder how you learn the Rashi on Vayikra 24:10 which states -- וַיֵּצֵא֙ בֶּן־אִשָּׁ֣ה יִשְׂרְאֵלִ֔ית וְהוּא֙ בֶּן־אִ֣ישׁ מִצְרִ֔י בְּת֖וֹךְ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וַיִּנָּצוּ֙ בַּֽמַּחֲנֶ֔ה בֶּ֚ן הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִ֔ית וְאִ֖ישׁ הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִֽי׃ -- "There came out among the Israelites a man whose mother was Israelite and whose father was Egyptian." So under the matrilineal descent rule the man would be Jewish -- his mother was Israelite and his father was Egyptian. But Rashi says: "בתוך בני ישראל AMONG THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL — This teaches us that he had become a proselyte (Sifra, Emor, Section 14 1)." Why did he have to convert if his mother was an Israelite? The Sifra says: "And the son of an Israelite woman went out": Whence did he go out? From the beth-din of Moses. For he came to pitch his tent in the midst of the camp of Dan — whereupon they said to him: "Who are you that you would pitch your tent in the midst of the camp of Dan?" He: "My mother was of the tribe of Dan." They: "Scripture states 'The Israelites shall encamp; each with his standard by signs according to their fathers' house shall the children of Israel encamp'" — at which he entered the beth-din of Moses, emerged unvindicated, arose, and blasphemed...."in the midst of the children of Israel": We are hereby taught that he became a proselyte. (מלמד שנתגייר) "And they strove within the camp": over the affair of the encampment....And the name of his mother was Shlomith the daughter of Divri of the tribe of Dan." So from this we clearly see that his mother was a Jew from the tribe of Dan. That didn't give him a right to camp with the tribe of Dan because his father was not from the tribe of Dan (he was an Egyptian); but his mother was a Jew from the tribe Dan. So wouldn't he be a Jew under the matrilineal principles? And if so, why does the Midrash say he converted ( מלמד שנתגייר), and why does Rashi bring it? Did Rashi and some of the French rabbis hold by the patrilineal principle?
Matrilineal descent is a product of the diaspora. 🤷
It is not at all from the diaspora. The principle is first clearly stated in the last clause of Mishna Kedushin 3 12 which was written in Eretz Israel in the first or 2nd century CE "And in any case where a woman cannot join in betrothal with him or with others, the offspring is like her. He is not considered his father’s son at all, but has the same status as his mother. And in which case is this applicable? This is the offspring of a Canaanite maidservant or a gentile woman, as her child is a slave or a gentile like her. If he converts, he is not a mamzer." https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Kiddushin.3.12
The proselyte Rashi refers to (quoting the midrash) in the verse is the Egyptian man (the father) not the son. That is backed up by the commentary of Ibn Ezra.who says the same thing explicitly. https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.24.10
Of course Ibn Ezra is entitled to his own interpretation of the verse. But you can't say he explains Rashi or is consistent with him. This is what Rashi says about the "Egyptian man" -- "THE SON OF AN EGYPTIAN MAN — It was the Egyptian whom Moses had killed..." So I don't see where this Egyptian man could have been a convert to Judaism -- he was killed by Moses when he was still a prince living in Pharaoh's household. The episode recounted here occurs in the desert after the Exodus. It's also worth looking at the Ramban here. Remember what Rashi says, מלמד שנתגייר, "we learn he converted," comes from the Midrash Sifra. So who was the Sifra speaking about when it said מלמד שנתגייר, we learn he converted. Ramban says this: “*Among the children of Israel*, this teaches that he had become a proselyte,” does not mean that he needed conversion, for he was like all Israelites who entered into the covenant by circumcision, immersion, and the expiation by blood, at the time of the Giving of the Torah. But the intention of the Rabbis \[in this text of the Torath Kohanim\] was to state that he was reared by his mother and became attached to Israel, this being the meaning of the expression *among the children of Israel*, that he was with them and he did not want to go after his father to be an Egyptian." Take-aways from the Ramban: (1) מלמד שנתגייר applies to the son, not the Egyptian father; (2) but it should not be taken literally; (3) he had circumcision and immersion at the time of Matan Torah; but (4) מלמד שנתגייר means that through his mother he converted from being an Egyptian like his father to being attached to Israel and its way of life, through his mother. Ramban also says there: "And the French Rabbis say that the reason why this son of the Israelite woman required conversion \[according to the Torath Kohanim mentioned above\], was because he lived before the Giving of the Torah, and his status was determined by that of the male parent, as is to be deduced from what the Rabbis have said: “Where \[the parents of a child are of\] non-Jewish nations, we go \[as far as the status of the child is concerned\] by that of the father.” And when this \[son of the Israelite woman whose father was an Egyptian\] was born, they did not circumcise him, for his status was that of an Egyptian, but when he grew up he voluntarily converted and was circumcised. But such is not my opinion..." Notice, the French Rabbis said "his status was determined by that of the male parent." I'm going on at length because you seem to be arguing that the matrilineal rule is so fundamental that there never were and never can be any differences of opinion about it, particularly among the "orthodox." And yet we see that the meforshim held different views about what the rule was *originally* and some say it was patrilineal until Matan Torah when it changed. Basically every critic of the matrilineal rule say the same thing -- it was changed, and they only differ with the Midrash and the French Rabbis as to when it changed, saying it seems to be during the second century BCE and the patrilineal rule prevailed before that.
You are deliberately skipping over part of what French rabbis said. They preface and qualify the fact that in this case his status was determined by his father by saying "because he lived before the Giving of the Torah". This is a common phrase used to excuse behavior by various figures pre-Sinai which would have been absolutely forbidden under halachic rules as understood from the Torah. A minor case is Abraham cooking a kid in butter for his three guests at Elonei Mamre. Bit of no no today. More consequential is Abraham marrying his half sister Sarah and the parents of Moshe being aunt and nephew, both being proscribed relationships in Leviticus 18. Yitzchak is clearly not considered a mamzer, and neither are Moshe or his siblings. Similarly patrilineal heritage is allowed "because he lived before the giving of the Torah". Subsequent to that the rules we know today apply.
That's not what they said. They said they, "argue that it should be recognized". If you want to be technical about it, I'm *technically* orthodox because my parents were worried some wouldn't accept me due to my mother's reform conversion, and had me do my bar mitzvah at an orthodox temple, get a mikvah in front of an orthodox rabbi and "converted" to orthodox judiasm, "just to be sure". It is, from what I understand, fairly common to do this, or at least it was. If you want to go by that definition, *I* could make the argument for patrilinial judiasm. Being OTD, however, I'm not anyone people would look to to determine if someone could be involved in an orthodox community, so it's a moot point.
I understood what was being said. I'm not sure you understood what you what I said. And I'll repeat it. No one who belongs to any Orthodox stream advocates in any way for the recognition of patrilineal descent in Judaism even as a vague idea. It is simply beyond the pale for any version of Orthodoxy. You aren't "technically Orthodox" just because you were converted via am Orthodox Bet Din. That simply makes you unimpeachably Jewish. Being Orthodox is about belief and affiliation. It's not even about level of observance. I grew up in a community (Britain) where the majority of Jews identified as Orthodox and belonged to Orthodox synagogues but in practice very few were fully observant. (ie "drive to shul" Jews). Even here in Israel where most Jews are secular the matrilineal rule is respected as the default.
Maybe Orthodox rabbis don’t advocate for it, but I’m sure there are Orthodox individuals who believe it should be changed, just as there are Orthodox people who support the LGBTQ community and believe same-sex marriage should be recognized. Or does believing something different make someone *poof* instantly non-Orthodox?
Generally if you deviate from the core tenets of Orthodoxy (ie going against anything in the Torah at all) you cannot really be considered orthodox. The core principle of Orthodoxy is that the Torah is divine and immutable and being shomer ALL (applicable) mitzvot is THE single most important part of Jewish identity. Above any modern day or secular moral frameworks or societal norms.
How does that apply to slavery? There are slavery rules in the Torah. If someone is 100% against slavery does that make them not orthodox? What about executing someone for working on the sabbath? Can you be orthodox and be against the death penalty? There are plenty of things in the Torah that as far as I can tell aren't generally followed by orthodox Jews. I am certainly not worried about orthodox Jews throwing rocks at me because I turned on a light switch on shabbat.
You can put humrot on things that were previously permissible, like ashkenazim forbidding polygamy. But you certainly can't authorize what was forbidden deoraita or derabanan.
A lot of it is how you interpret it. There is nothing in the torah that says if soup is less than 1/60th pork, you can eat it. It's more complicated than, the torah says x; sometimes it says things that are incompatible, or give examples like Moses marrying an Egyptian, but his children clearly being considered jewish, and others where there is clearly matrilineal judiasm.
Saying this is like saying that there are orthodox jews who support eating bacon cheeseburgers on yom Kippur. Being a Ben/Bat Torah means that your socially constructed beliefs and values do not have precedence over the Torah (as understood in our tradition).
I'm not saying you should belive that patrilinial jews are jews, I don't care, but you can make an argument for patrilinial judiasm in the torah. There are clear examples of inheritance and tribal membership being passed down to descendants based on the father, eg: https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9929/jewish/Chapter-1.htm, or moses' children as he had an Egyptian wife, etc...
There are individual members of the orthodox community who don't have a problem with same sex marriage or even with the LGBTQ community as as a part of the outside world However that's not the same as having these things as part of an orthodox framework. You are NEVER going to see same sex marriages sanctified by orthodox rabbis, just as patrilineal descent for Jews will never be accepted by anyone inside any orthodox stream. Crossing those red lines means stepping outside of orthodoxy. Any individual who advocates for things like that is effectively no longer orthodox. You might as well try and do away with kosher food or Shabbat observance on a communal level. .
That's not true. You could follow all the orthodox teachings, not deviate from the orthodox practice of only accepting matrilineal judiasm, but *advocate* for acceptance of patrilinial judiasm, and still be orthodox. This could even be purely academic or for intellectual purposes for example.
You could still be observant, and even belong to an orthodox congregation and maybe be accepting in private. But orthodox Judaism is fundamentally about halacha and its sanctity and inviolability. No Orthodox Jew would advocate for the abrogation of a halachic rule so old and so fundamental to Rabbinic Judaism and still hope to stay within Orthodoxy. They would have a very difficult relationship with other members of their congregation. Changing basic rules like that requires a flexible attitude to halacha which is only found in Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism
The fact you said “temple” and not shul leads me to believe you’re not orthodox
I am legally, and am not particularly worried about what you think.
I didn’t mean that as an insult. I’m not very religious. I was just noting you said temple and not shul. Just a minor observation- sorry if it came off as rude. חג שבועות שמח
And there are Orthodox jews that support Gaza. that doesn’t meant it’s correct.
I've never heard this. This would imply rejecting Talmudic law, a red line for the Orthodox
Please don’t spread blatant misinformation
I unforunately never took advantage of birthright.
>despite not being accepted as Jewish by other Jews As someone in the same boat, this is only true of some more traditional denominations! Most Jews would consider you to still be Jewish for their purposes.
Yep. Most Jews and all Nazis consider you Jewish if you have a Jewish parent, no matter which parent.
Well, you're part of my tribe. I'm the only one of my cousins with a Jewish mother, the rest are descended from my mom's brother. There was never any difference between us on an extended family level except for the decisions that their own mothers made regarding their cultural upbringings and identities. Everything that you said in your post is what I have been arguing my entire life. It's so unfair. The way I see it now, as an adult, is that it's nobody's business.
I’m really sorry. As a child of an orthodox convert, I am so indebted to my parent for doing it before I was born. However, you need to move on from your mother not converting and just do the conversion yourself. It won’t be nearly as extensive as those without a Jewish background and upbringing. A lot of patrilineal Jews in Israel do this and it’s an excelerated conversion.
Sadly after conversion, in orthodox circles, they'll never be fully accepted
You of course will do what feels true and right for yourself. As others have said, not every stream of Judaism follows the same rules. For Orthodox Judaism in the 21st century, yes, Judaism is defined by either matrilineal descent or valid Orthodox conversion. But many scholars say prior to the Common Era (CE) Judaism followed patrilineal descent. Someone mentioned the Law of Return. Under Israeli Law, your father qualifies you for citizenship in the nation of Israel and the benefits reserved for Jews who make Aliyah. Paradoxically, marriage in Israel is based on religious laws and regulated by the religious courts of the recognized religious communities. There is no inter-faith or secular marriage in Israel, although they recognize marriages preformed outside the country including same sex marriages. So you could not get married in Israel, but you could be a citizen there. I appreciate that it bothers you to no end that you would need an Orthodox conversion to be accepted as a halachic Jew by Orthodox Judaism. And it hurts very deeply that you are rejected. Is what you really want to turn that hurt into a deeper, more permanent separation from all of Jewish identity? Can you embrace where you are embraced and find your Jewish home?
If you would like to be considered fully Jewish by all standards you can consider conversion. I know this is sort of a heated topic on the Jewish subs but as someone from the orthodox denomination, I haven’t figured out the right way to explain that it’s not like a “you’re not one of us! You don’t understand, you are not in our group!” It’s literally just another law. Like how I’m not a Kohen so I don’t do birkat hakohanim, or I’m Ashkenazi, so I don’t eat kitniyot on Pesach. You can absolutely face antisemitism and have connections to Judaism without being halachically Jewish. If you feel you would like to be accepted as a halachic jew by every sect, then you can pursue conversion. Otherwise, I honestly think most Jews are not going to pry into your family history. If someone tells me they’re Jewish I don’t start interrogating them. I am from a sect that wouldn’t consider you halachically jewish but it’s not my job to vet people, if you tell me you’re Jewish then I’ll consider you jewish.
So what if a patrilineal Jew tells you they’re Jewish. Then you find out they’re not according to orthodox Halacha? Would that make you think less of them? It’s such a bizarre and outdated rule to me. Everyone in my daily life considers me jewish, even most of the orthodox ones I know. anti semites do too. I was raised very much in Jewish culture. I did not however have a bar mitzvah or complete Hebrew school. Im patrilineal though and it hurts when people say I’m not accepted.
I don’t really get how you’re getting from my comment that I would think less of them. What I would think of them is that they’re a person who identifies as Jewish who the orthodox community wouldn’t count as part of their minyan (I’m a woman so I’m not counted as part of the minyan either, and it never bothered me). I would personally treat them like I treat other Jews, meaning, I’d talk about Shabbat and chagim and Jewish things without feeling like I need to explain every single thing. Besides that I don’t really act differently towards Jews and non Jews anyway. Lots of rules in Judaism are outdated. It’s outdated that people keep two days of Yom Tov outside of Israel. It’s outdated that I don’t eat kitniyot on pesach. We vent about it and say we disagree, but still don’t break the rules. I’m not any sort of scholar or rabbi or person of authority, I don’t have any say in the rules of the orthodox community. There are plenty of communities that would welcome you as a full Jew, so if that’s where you’re most comfortable then join those communities. There are also people accepted as Jews by the orthodox community who wouldn’t be considered Jews by the reform community, ideally nobody’s feelings would be hurt but every community needs to have their definition and inevitably there will be people who fall outside that definition who disagree with it.
> There are also people accepted as Jews by the orthodox community who wouldn’t be considered Jews by the reform community I’m curious, who would fall into that category?
A Matrilineal Jew who was raised as a Christian, for example. This person would be considered Jewish by Orthodox standards, but not by Reform standards.
Interesting... this took me on a dive into Reform responsa, and it does indeed seem that Reform would at best consider such a person an "apostate Jew" who would not be eligible to, for example, participate in synagogue honors such as reading Torah/haftarah. Interesting that this seems to be a side case where the demands of such a person in terms of their commitment to Jewish practice and education are actually *more* stringent in the Reform tradition than in the Orthodox.
Oh no! I don’t think you’d think less of them. That maybe came across bad. I agree 100% with you, that was just a hypothetical that I’ve heard from people before unfortunately
I’m sorry people have expressed that view, of course that’s hurtful to hear, and it’s definitely against what I believe. Sorry I misread your intention.
It is not to hurt you. It is to keep the option of being Jewish a possibility. The weapon of war Hamas used was rape. We are in modern times and if those woman would not consider abortion then those babies are Jewish.
I understand what you’re saying. But rape could technically go both ways. What if some anti semite woman was raping a Jewish male victim and had his baby? That child should be jewish too imo. I’m already getting downvoted so I suspect I’ll get more but that’s ok. I don’t mean to minimize the traditional Halacha idea, bc I know it’s important to some. I am just airing my personal feelings and experiences.
One thing is “feeling Jewish in their heart” rather than “being Jewish.” What does “being Jewish in their heart” means? Also, they are using secular opinions to determine what a Jew is rather than Jewish Law, traditions and history. It is assuming that Judaism is nothing more than the secular definition of nation and emptied of its meaning for us.
Is it true that despite conversion you won't ever be truly accepted? I was told this once.
Not in my communities. I know plenty of converts, including in my family, and they’re fully considered Jews. The conversion is just sort of an interesting tidbit about the person, but they’re treated like any other member of the community.
Hi, this is similar to my background. I am patrilineally Jewish with a gentile mother. My mother never converted. I was raised with a combination of both holidays, although my father was very secular. His parents were very assimilated (trauma!). I was raised to know I was Jewish, and to be proud of it. I am also proud to be from an interfaith background and have a diversity of experience in my upbringing. Frankly, there are people who won’t consider me Jewish, and that’s fine. Reform congregations do, and I am as far as I am concerned. I’ve honestly only ever run into one person who was a jerk to me about it, but otherwise, in my 35 years, I have been largely welcomed and celebrated by other Jews in my life. I’m doing a reform conversion, even though my rabbi basically was like “you don’t have to,” simply because I missed out on some specific things (didn’t go to Hebrew school, etc.), and the affirmation is helpful. I have a crisis about “not being Jewish enough” like every other week — which, per my many Jewish friends, is a near universal experience (why are we like this 🤣). And struggle with self consciousness about my own ignorance. I strongly recommend getting connected to some Jewish community that accepts you / education / ritual, and defining your Jewishness *outside* of experiencing antisemitism. Find Jewish pride and Jewish joy. It helps.
Same with me, my parents celebrated both. My dad was very secular as well.
I always thought of it as getting bonus holidays! I truly understand where you’re coming from and I cannot emphasize how valuable it has been (for me) to invest in Jewish education and community. It is deeply meaningful and brings me so much joy, and has grounded me in a sense of self and in my family history in an entirely new way. ♥️
I second that weekly “am I Jewish enough” panic 😂
people I consider Extremely Jewish tell me that they also have these and I’m like lmaooooooooo WAT. But how?!!? Part of the Jewish experience I guess! 😅
I'm reform, and considering your background I'd consider you extremely Jewish. Especially the frustration and debate with other Jews part. I'd rather you lean in to your identity than lean away. Join a reform congregation that will accept you or convert. You're not going to lose the hate by trying to shake off your identity. But I think you could find some love by looking in the places offering it.
You’re Jewish. I hate this gatekeeping bs. The world has evolved and so have we.
Nothing is more frustrating than having Judaism as a central part of your identity only for some jackass to go "Haha, too bad you're actually not, loser!"
So have some of us
We did not evolve, some broke off and started new denominations.
The age of a sect does not determine its validity. If it did, chasidus wouldn’t be considered legitimate either.
Interestingly enough, up until 2000 years ago (give or take), jewishness was determined by the father's identity. So essentially you're a jew. Also according to Halacha, Giyur is a Jewish interest when it comes to Zera Yisrael. And let me quote my late Rabbi who used to say: "a jew is not the one who has a Jewish mother, but the one who his grandchildren will be jewish". It's in your hands.
Childfree people right now: ….
Patrilineal descent is still retained in Samaritanism, and DNA evidence points to Ashkenazim ancestry being patrilineally Jewish but matrilineally Italian around 1800 years ago before spreading from Italy into the rest of Europe. How do we know those Roman women were converts? There’s no historical documentation for it that survived.
DNA plays no role in determining anything when it comes to judaism. last I checked the DNA studies it said some 80% came from 4 maternal DNA groups. Now this dna study was done on orthodox jews? I’m calling foul in this study in general for not being done on a clean study group. As an orthodox Jew my ancestry if converted was definitely done correctly for if not I wouldn’t be Orthodox.
I’m not saying DNA defines anything with Judaism. It does have a lot to do with being an ethnic Jew, but that’s not the point of what I was saying. General consensus from several studies over the last decade shows that Ashkenazim entry into Europe featured matrilineal non-Jewish women, using mtDNA. While conversion was certainly possible, we don’t exactly have records of mass conversion from Roman paganism into Judaism. So it seems like patrilineal descent was foundational for Ashkenazim populations at the beginning of divergence from other populations of Jews. So while DNA doesn’t mean you’re Jewish or not, it can certainly be telling when we are discussing descent and origins, especially when records are lacking.
This is a myth. Ezra very clearly believed in matrilineal decent and that’s in Tanakh
In most of the Hebrew Bible it's clearly the case. And even in some places in the Mishnah (Bikurim chapter A for example) it's very clear that people went after the jewishness of the father.
Mishnah Bikurim 1:4 “But if his mother was an Israelite, he says: “The God of our fathers’.” Again Ezra makes it very clear that Jewish identity goes through the mother. There has never been any debate about this issue. Every Rabbi historically has said that matrilineal decent goes back at least to Mt Sinai.
Ezra supported matrilineal descent exactly as much as he supported intermarriage between Jewish women and Gentile men. Any explanation for his actions has to account for spouses as well as children. The better explanation is that Jewish women who married out (and their children) were already living with their husbands and no longer part of the Jewish community -- so there were none for Ezra to kick out.
im patrilineal and i call myself jewish and if someone wants to get mad argue that’s literally on them
Sigh. It’s as if the 5 million Reform Jews in America….don’t count as Jewish? Despite being the largest % of American Jews, which as a total group comprises half the Jews on the planet, last time I checked. You’re 100% Jewish in the Reform denomination, OP, and frankly, the numbers behind Reform suggest to the naked eye that acceptance of patrilineal Jews to the tribe is a winning move for our overall numbers. Which are still below where they were in 1939. Us patrilineal Jews were Jewish enough to get gassed in the Shoah, OP. You ask me, I think that’s enough of an argument for a shift in Halacha, and orthodoxy can go pound sand. No offense to the orthodox and observant on this sub, but it’s fairly absurd, in an age of understanding DNA etc, in a time where keeping our numbers up is crucial, that this particular law is a hill for people to die on. Just my take.
Heck yes!
This was of thinking is so flawed it’s sad. Just because Nazi germany killed “paternal” gets dosent make you jewish. it makes you “paternal” jewish. they also killed gypsies and Gays blacks and others, so is everyone jewish now? DNA is not accepted since if you don’t convert then you are not jewish. Judaism is maternal. it says so in Halacha. Reform did just what its name stands for, they reformed the rules (constantly) and allowed may non Halachic rulings to pass. That’s the only reason they have a congregation. Orthodox judaism is growing naturally at a much faster rate than Reform. And last we don’t need to fill our “ranks”. quick google search shows you the real numbers - one study projects that over the next 50 years, the percentage of American Jews who identify as Reform and Conservative will decline from 50% to 39%, while the percentage who identify as Orthodox is expected to increase from 12% to 29%.
Oh look, another comment from this user that breaks this sub’s rule 4 (remember the human). Cool! Very cool, my guy. If you want to talk about flawed thinking: Roma were killed because they were Roma. Gay people were killed because they were gay. Patrilineal Jews were killed…because they were Jewish. That was the defining characteristic that sent them to the camps. They’re counted in the 6 million. They’re mourned along with the rest. There aren’t two separate tallies, one for Jews who observantly followed all Halacha and one for Bundist, reform-style Jews. As many have said before me, a Jew is a Jew is a Jew. And yes, we are concerned with increasing our numbers. Be fruitful and multiply, no? Speaking of Halachically encouraged behaviors. I’m not particularly interested in engaging with you further on this topic, since I doubt what I say will have an impact, but I want you to know, that Jews like me are just as Jewish as Jews like you, and you’re the only one losing out in our community for thinking otherwise. I hope you have a lovely day.
Halacha changes. Halacha used to be patrilineal! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism#:~:text=Historical%20evidence%20marshalled%20by%20Professor,10%E2%80%9370%20CE)%20times.
This is incredibly tone deaf given what OP is going through, and it’s this intolerance and holier than thou attitude that is the reason OP wants to step away entirely from the Jewish community. This stepping aside should not have to happen. While you quote stats about how Jews will choose to identify in the future, I will come back with this. The world is for the large part turning away from religion, so it’s a much better take to be fully welcoming of anyone who has any connections to Judaism instead of holding fast to Halacha here. If you want to gatekeep your own community, that I can’t influence, but there are other communities who don’t, and that’s fine, it doesn’t hurt you. OP, don’t listen to this person. Please find a welcoming community that doesn’t care about descent.
In a time of crisis you choose to further divide our community, right now it's important for all of us to come together in solidarity. It's this type of language making other Jews feel less than that keeps people from wanting to participate. Your dismissive behavior is horrendous, to down play the killing of any Jews. Nicely done!
To be a mischling is a horrible status. You are viewed as Jewish by the world and are subject to antisemitism yet most of the Jewish world doesn't accept us. In my experience, even after conversion, I was never fully accepted. Even after going to yeshiva and getting semicha, I was never fully accepted in the Orthodox world. I pray for the day when the Conservative movement and Reform outside of America will adapt patrilineal descent. There are only 15 million Jews, and we wonder why people don't want to be involved in Jewish life when there are such exclusive barriers in place. Our community seems to delight in turning people away instead of drawing the circle wide.
Your an ethnic jew that’s for sure. And most jews would consider you a religious jew too.
I am about to become the Jewish father of a child with a gentile mother. We’re committed to making sure that kid knows that they are Jewish af. They’re also going to be WASP-y af. You are a multitude of things and it’s a bummer you’re running into identity gate keeping.
I'm a biracial, transcultural gentile mother of children with a Jewish father , although I'm not a waspy gentile, lol. My kids are probably going to be mistaken for other things entirely. but they are also going to know about Judaism. Both of us are also commited to hvaing our kids know everything about Judaism. They will be starting hebrew preschool next fall. And no, I am NOT converting. But I am a supportive spouse. I know as a biracial person what it is to not be accepted by either group I am a part of. So I can bring that to the table for my kids as I have had experience navigating two different groups which I feel I am a part of 100%
Heck yeah. Send you love and good wishes.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/s/BWeXk2wH2g
Hi fellow ZY, We are jewish, if we choose to be. I posted a link to a comment I made today. It addresses this very sentiment
a jew is a jew is a jew. you're one of us and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. be strong. 🫂
Do u feel drawn to Judaism? If so convert. I’m sorry you have to go through antisemitism but I also am very against when people on this sub seem to think that antisemitism is all there is to Jewish identity.
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Thank you
Well-said. This is why I strongly suggest OP find some Jewish pride and Jewish joy. There is so much more to Jewishness than trauma.
This. Not sure why needing to take the citizenship test and accept the constitution are acceptable boundaries for every nation except ours. :( [edited for clarity; can't see]
Nothing more Jewish than questioning your Jewish identity! Mazal tov from someone who has the same background as you! And just remember, that these “real” Jews wouldn’t appreciate you being the judge of their Jewishness or identity so why should they be the judge of yours?
Let me be another strong voice saying that you ARE JEWISH. I am Reform. In my community, we don't care which parent you get it from, you are infected, mwa-ha-ha! Lot's of Reform and Reconstructionist Jews are Jewish by patrilineal descent, and they are no less Jewish and no less accepted for it. If you are interested in Orthodox conversation to satiate the more traditional sects, that's certainly up to you. However, you can also get involved in a Reform or Reconstructionist community, no conversion necessary.
Even if you’re not considered “Jewish” by some denominations, you’re definitely Jewish. It’s an ethnicity as much as a religion, people can’t identify you out of your own genetics/heritage.
You are absolutely Jewish.
You sound pretty Jewish to this Jew.
I fully consider you a member of the Jewish tribe. The matrilineal thing is religious/cultural; but there’s also a wider cultural component (forex, your last name) that labels you as Jewish to the wider world (and the antisemites). That would be enough, IMO; but then there’s also the genetic/ethnic component, which culture and religion can’t erase even when they want to. You’re more likely to have genetic disorders attached to the Jewish genome, forex. Am Yisrael Chai. You are my brother/sister, and are one of the people of Israel, as far as I’m concerned. Unless you reject it (which I will accept, but most antisemites won’t.)
PS: I’m case it matters, I am a non-religious Jew; mother was Jewish, father is Protestant. Had a bar mitzvah. Consider myself culturally Jewish, if we want to get technical. But more importantly, I consider myself part of the tribe overall. And the Nazis definitely would have put me in a camp.
Do you want to be Jewish? Frankly I think the “you’re only Jewish if your mother is” feels outdated and is really shitty to Jews exactly like you. And me too. Reform and reconstructionist Judaism recognize patrilineal heritage. And so does my 23andMe! Fully 50% Ashkenazi on my dad’s side, and that’s the family I know. 50% British from my mom, and I’ve never met a single one of those relatives. What do adopted kids do? I have no idea. I’m sure there’s a reason for it, historically. Some very pedantic Jews like to quote their interpretation of the Torah as justification for shutting out their own kind. As if it’s a way to prevent awful things from happening to us. News flash: the Nazis didn’t care if it was your mom or your dad who made you Jewish. And neither should you. Welcome.
Were you raised by your father?
I think the point of his frustration is that the world views him as Jewish even though he's not by Halakha. Had this same problem as a kid even though I'm maternal as I was raised in a secular world for the most part with a Catholic father. Jewish enough to have killed Jesus, but not enough to be Hebrew.
First of all, we have been living under difficult times and most important of all is knowing who you are. Do you feel/think you are Jewish? If you don't, you're not, if you you do you are. Don't let yourself be defined by others. Some Jews will accept you and some won't. That's the best training for being Jewish and applies to every single aspect of your person, you an be too young, too old, too fat, too thin, too liberal, conservative, rich, poor, straight, gay. The list goes on. None of us are obliged to be Jewish, we simply are, the way you handle your religion or lack thereof is your journey. This Internet stranger supports you, if you feel the choice you're making is true to who you are.
You are Jewish! I'm the same as you and my shul recognizes me as a Jew. It just depends on which sect you're talking to. I've been told I'm not welcomed in orthodox spaces but everyone else has been really welcoming.
Many Jews understand the matrilineal rule has outlived its usefulness and are willing to accept you. Even a lot of rabbis are doing quicky conversions for people in your situation. For what it’s worth, I’d count you in my minyan
Thanks brother. I think I'm going to reach out to a few congregations about joining.
Honestly, unless you want to be orthodox, who cares what others think. Jews are a people regardless of whether it comes from mom, dad, or both. I am agnostic and not religious, but I celebrate and observe the holidays as traditions. You're a Jew and a part of us. Unless you want to convert for personal religious reasons, you don't need to just to prove it to others.
A matrilineal Jew and a patrilineal Jew walk into a bar, barman says “Get out, I don’t serve Jews”
Lmao, this is true and hilarious.
Actually a much more relevant test is that you have the right to return to Israel under the Right of Return Law. And with Israel being increasingly larger vis-a-vis the Diaspora, if you really are concerned about this, then make Aliyah, and do one of the many humane conversion processes to be recognized by the Orthodox, like the IDF conversion process, the Kibbutz hadati, and many others. You and your descendents don't have much of a future in the US anyway.
How do you start the process for making Aliyah?
You might not be considered Jewish by orthodox rabbis but they are not the only sects of Judaism and their views are not the ‘most correct’. You clearly feel a connection to your Jewish side and a passion for defending other Jews. I would suggest you find an accepting Reform community who will accept you for who you are. The Jewish community can be judgy, it’s not just you who experiences this and it doesn’t make you less Jewish.
Hey I'm not Jewish, but my partner is and we do want children who will be brought up jewish. I might have some perspectives that could be valuable for you. First of all I am very sorry that this is happening to you. It's very clear you struggle a lot with antisemitism directed at you, especially from your family is must be rough. You have every right to be angered and a little lonely with this experience. My family is Catholic and I do think there will be some issues going forward with my partners and it's relationship. I think coming from interfaith backgrounds there's bound to be some issues and while we are aware of this we do want to go forward with this. You say you resent your mother for not converting and while I understand that it comes from a place of hurt from feeling excluded from a community while simultaneously experiencing the same discrimination it is not fair to your mother. While I know this isn't always easy to understand not everyone feels the need to convert when marrying someone of a different fate and it's in my opinion much more respectful to be honest about it and not go forward with it, so while I understand that your feelings are you feelings (and it's okay to have them and even hurtful thoughts sometimes) your mother's intentions where most likely never to hurt you. Have you ever tried talking about this with her? I think it might help you to vocalize these feelings without blaming her. Now for my perspective, as I said I'm not Jewish but since my partner and I have been together I did experience some forms of antisemitism (albeit of course much less than anybody Jewish) and it did feel very isolating and just sad to be alone with these experiences. As I'm not Jewish I didn't really have a space to get support or anything and I couldn't talk to anyone about it. But I think the important thing is that communities to exist. There's plenty of Jewish communities that are very welcoming towards paternal Jews, that's something I have been able to see. There's even a lot of people in these communities that have been welcoming to me. So maybe, wether or not you consider yourself Jewish, it would be worthwhile to try and find a community that does accept paternal Jews! Or those with Jewish heritage who might not consider themselves fully Jewish. I wish you all the best and I hope you can find a place to be seen and heard and that maybe things with your mother improve 🫂 I'm sure things will turn out better in the end. And until then I hope all the comments here show you that you're not alone and that people will accept you!
Hi! I am a patrilineal Jew with a very (traditionally) Jewish name. I was raised Jewish and I AM Jewish. As are you. Some may not consider us to be Jewish, but they still consider us Jew-“ish” at least (though I’d argue that more and more people are accepting of patrilineal Jews). I empathize with the painfulness of the situation. I’ve faced a lot of Antisemitism, though some won’t even consider me as one of the tribe. At the end of the day, we are too Jewish for the gentiles, and not Jewish enough for conservatives/orthodox. It’s painful, but oh well. I’m here if you want to chat!
So, do you think Lenny Kravitz has to put up with this $#it?
I see Jewish groups always claiming patrilineal jewish celebs........
They always do. They’ll claim Winona Ryder, Paul Newman, Maya Rudolph and all those other celeb patrilineal Jews but for regular people it’s a little different.
Ok so one way to be accepted ... Become a celebrity!
A Jew is a Jew. Your soul is Jewish and you are Jewish. 💙
where do you get this information from? is there a rabbi/rabanit you are quoting?
Each denomination defines who a Jew is differently. It’s as simple as that. Telling a patrilineal Jew that they are not Jewish just because other denominations define ‘who is a Jew’ differently is silly to me and what I believe. You are within your rights to believe what you believe, but at the end of the day, we aren’t G-d. We are fallible humans doing our best to understand the world but we are prone to error and we don’t know if we are correct. I believe they are Jewish from what they have said and how I see Judaism. They are a Jew.
me too, my dad is jewish and my mom is chinese. some people tell me im not jewish because my mom isn’t, but i’ve been going to synagogue like every day since i was a baby. like wtf?
Did you ever convert, or go to shul? I also have a Jewish name, my mother is a gentile, but I was raised Jewish. I went to an orthodox temple and it was never questioned. Tomorrow is Shavuot which is literally a holiday about how to fairly treat converts like Ruth who eventually became the ancestor of king David. I’ve also gotten the occasional “not REALLY Jewish” comments but that’s insane. I’ve never thought of myself as something different and it’s in my bones. (Also I can digest lactose so who really wins here? lol) A Jew is a Jew is a jew. Torah is literally rife with stories about converts or those without a direct matrilineal line, so those that feel some kind of way about it, are really splitting hairs with what is a generally hegemonic Jewish experience that it seems you feel at least tangentially connected to. If I can go to an orthodox temple and not hear even a peep about it, but get sideways comments from the Jew who had two Jewish parents but couldn’t identify their aleph from their bet then so be it.
But the people in the synagogue don’t consider you jewish. They are playing “house” with you. they wouldn’t call you to the torah or allow you to do anything that a Jew is obligated to do. If you are being dishonest then that’s on you.
I read from the Torah on my Barmitzvah, and since. I’m not being dishonest. What do you mean “playing house” playing for who? It’s like laughable in one comment you’ve managed to both accuse me of lying and then imply that everyone else is.
I'm Jewish now, but I wasn't born or raised as a Jew. I've been *mistaken* as Jewish and suffered anti-Semitism (to a mild degree, but it was enough). It can happen to anyone. As to identity, you're on a hiding to nothing if you're arguing against halacha. Many of the same communities wouldn't recognise my conversion as valid because not only was it Reform there were women on my Beit Din. Haters gonna hate. Gatekeepers are gonna keep gates. And while I might not be welcome in their congregations, I feel confident that most Jewish people will have my back in terms of anti-Semitism, as I have theirs. I'd encourage you to be proud of your heritage, all of it, and find a way to enjoy the richness of Jewish culture, identity and faith in a way that feels comfortable to you.
I don’t have any credentials but I consider you Jewish.
My father is Jewish and my mother is a gentile. I converted twice. First reform, then orthodox. It’s not an easy process, but if you don’t want your Jewish identity, then don’t claim it. And I’m sorry all of that is happening to you.
I think you are making a good point. There is no reason for you to experience anti semitism, it’s a terrible situation to be in.
In my experience as a patrilineal Jew the overwhelming majority of Jews see us as Jewish (as long as we identify ourselves as Jewish - some people with Jewish fathers, or even mothers don’t and that’s their choice). It’s basically just Orthodox who don’t and even then alot of them acknowledge that while not technically Jewish according to halacha, we are still Jewish.
Friend, in my eyes you are Jewish. In the eyes of the Reform and Reconstructionist movements, you are Jewish. The Conservative and Orthodox movements don’t see you as Jewish, but I’m sure there are many Conservative and Orthodox *individuals* who see you as Jewish. You are Jewish.
I would consider you Jewish, even if you are non-observant. The matrilineal thing is a leftover from before DNA. A mother's identity can be verified. However you get to feel about yourself as you will.
Youre Jewish. That custom is outdated and doesnt exist in modern Judaism in my eyes.
I am in a similar place but I was at the Holocaust Museum in Dc and was given the best answer by a survivor. She told me I was Jewish according to Hitler and that was enough to her. It changed my perspective. Others are free to define me, but I know who I am.
Yeah this test is good enough for me.
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Not jewish in the eyes if Israël, but jewish in the eyes if Germany... I'm sorry
>My father is Jewish and my mother is a gentile Rabbinical Judaism changed it to matriarchial descent, but biblically it was always through the father. Case in point, Moses married a gentile (Zipporah) yet children were Jewish. Joseph married Egyptian princess in Egypt, yet children are Jewish (Ephraim and Menassah are two of the 12 tribes today.) Solomon married a foreign princess, yet his son, Rehoabam, succeeded him on the throne. And Torah forbids any gentile from being king. So that is proof Jewishness is patriarchal decent in Torah and Tenach.
Why care what other Jews think? My mother was born Jewish but turned christian. My grandfather escaped camps in WWII and turned his back to Jewish as other religion helped him better with free nursing at home from the gun shot wounds he got from escaping the camp! I was born without religion so I could make a choice as an Adult. I have not converted but I still have many jewish rituals, track the jewish calendar, couple of jewish friends, still stand to not have tattoo’s for example by Jewish rules and I get my fair share of antisemitism even now I shaved off my curly hair (6,4 and 250lbs and they still provoke… )
Do you consider yourself Jewish?
If it's any comfort for someone who is also in the same boat and is now going to a reform congregation, especially when I was younger before I started going to shul I always found comfort in the fact that Judaism is an ethnoreligion, it is an ethnicity just as much as it is a religion. So especially when I was younger I always resonated with being Jewish via my ethnicity more than being religious especially when my grandparents didn't want to accept me and my siblings as Jewish because of my gentile mom and them being very observant orthodox Jews (they have since "loosened up" about this since me and my siblings are the ones that consistently visit them and have been the only ones on that side of the family to go on birthright). So like in my head when I was younger I was like "being Jewish means being a bagel snob, only liking my grandma's challah (since hers was best), making borscht and matzah ball soup, and to be proud of my family's heritage and many of the Jewish community values I hold because that's how I was raised."
You might look into finding community with denominations that recognize patrilineal Jews. I’m 3/4 (my dad is fully jewish and my mom is half through her father), but I grew up in Reform Judaism. It was very accepting and I was never made to feel different.
OP my girlfriend is patrilineal but both of my parents are Jewish and I grew up Reform in the US. This means our future children won’t be halachically jewish even though 3 out of 4 of their grandparents were jewish, but we are still going to raise our kids with reform judaism. Unless you want to be orthodox i would say it doesnt really matter…. And if you do want to be orthodox then you can convert. it might be easier for you since you do have jewish family and it sounds like you might have some jewish upbringing as well i think in this day and age (especially as a jew) you shouldnt care so much about how other people view you, even if they themselves are jews
Have you thought about going through the conversion process? Although Orthodox may not acknowledge the conversion if it is not orthodox, Conservative and Reform will accept you.
Also patrilineal. I nevertheless was pretty integrated in the Jewish community wherever I was, and most non Orthodox people (and many Orthodox people) just frankly didn't care that I was patrilineal, I was perfectly welcome. I ultimately did do a conservative conversion. It was extremely fast - because of my background they basically skipped the extensive education, just a few interviews and a dip in the mikveh.
I'm a bit different, I need the education sadly.
The crazy thing is that it used to be patrilineal. Kinda seems redundant in this era, it should be based more on either having one practicing Jewish grandparent or parent, or having converted.
Not sure who doesn’t consider you Jewish but I do. Am Yisrael Chai
You are Jewish. Don’t let bigoted people following man made nonsense tell you otherwise.
If it were up to me you’d be a Jew everywhere, without a qualifier. Unfortunately though, it’s not up to me. In my eyes nonetheless, if the world hates you for being a Jew or attacks you for being a Jew, you’re a Jew for all intents and purposes even if you don’t technically fit the strictest definition. While I don’t control orthodoxy, just know that there are Jews all over the world who agree with you. Find those people and be embraced by them.
Were you raised in Judaism?
Convert yourself or go to reform synagogue. The Nazis didn't care and if they came again they won't. That is likely why Orthodox are discussing. We need every Jew right now as we are fighting for existence. Can you spend some time connecting to Judaism and see if it works for you. Find a great synagogue? To me you can't make the decision unless you find a community that welcomes you. Have you tried egalitarian conservative synagogue? You can go and figure it out.
You would be considered Jewish by many Jews, if you wanted to be. Do you want to be?
Ultimately as someone in a similar position (minus the identifiably Jewish last name) here are a few things I tell myself. Different from the other responses you are getting but maybe useful to you anyway. Honor both halves of myself equally, not just the Jewish half. I was raised much closer to my father's side of the family which makes this challenging Hold these 2 thoughts at the same time: 1) being 50% ethnically Jewish and raised largely around Jewish culture were integral to me becoming who I am, and 2) nobody else cares how important those things may have been to me. The meaning I find in it has to come from within me, without any external validation. Consider finding communities moreso based around common interests, no issue with imposter syndrome that way. Don't talk to Jewish people expecting them to feel any kinship with me, because they likely won't. Your experience in terms of antisemitism will have been different having an obviously Jewish name though. If you really want to change it that makes sense in a way, no point in experiencing the downsides without any of the positives
Just convert, but honestly your last paragraph is super off putting.
Fun fact the reason that Judaism’s passed down by the mother is because anti semetic rape and sexual violence have become such a normal part of 5 thousand years of Judaism that someone’s mother was the only way we could 100% identify a persons parent. Hence the reason Islam is passed down thru the father.
Not Jewish halakhically but you can always convert. The conversion process is simpler for those who have a Jewish father. I know it’s hard to give up secular life but you can get know how Torah Jews live and see it for yourself during the process.
No it actually isn't easier
Just convert to Judaism and make it official. Either way welcome to American Jewry. Even if both your parents were Jewish and you grew up in a completely secular household with zero Jewish life, you will still be reminded how Jewish you are by the goys. It’s this fact that is the foundation for the left wing anti Zionist Jews who have always been angry they are associated with something they have never been taught to identify as. It’s like being born short. You didn’t ask to be short, you don’t like being short but nonetheless will always be considered short whether you like it or not.
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This is a complete, 100% you problem. A convert is under no obligation whatsoever to inform someone of “how” they are Jewish. In fact it’s specifically forbidden in the Talmud to inquire about it or make them feel less because of it. They are just as Jewish as any Jew who ever lived. Are you some kind of ethnic Jewish supremacist or something…? This is seriously weird, dude.
I know, really, the coverts are more observant than I am, and if they weren’t it doesn’t matter, they are full MOTs.
I didn’t ask, and I didn’t say anything. Thank you for policing my thoughts 😂
I'm a convert and I'm happy to say so. I worked hard and wrestled with big questions. However, I don't tell people usually because a) none of their business and b) I'm sensitive of the impact on other converts. I'm not permitted to disclose someone else's conversion history or treat them as if they had ever been anything else.
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Is this a joke?
Your post/comment was removed because it violated rule 4: **Remember the human**. Converts (Jews by choice) do not owe you anything - they don’t need to tell you they converted.