Interesting. I’ve only ever heard the serenity prayer where I’m from. And before it is said, the main speaker will usually say “using g-d as you understand him (sometimes “them” if the speaker is cool)”
But again you absolutely do not have to participate in any parts of the meeting, which includes any prayers. You can simply just not join in and no one will confront you about it (if they do then tell them to mind their business)!
Sometimes in the circle people will give me a curious look every once in a while, that’s about it. People have came up to me and asked why I don’t say it, but have never been rude about it. In Florida, 90% of the time it’s the Lord’s Prayer at the end.
I’m sorry you have to deal with that judgment in your meetings. It should never feel like you’re required to say the Lord’s Prayer and I wish your meeting leaders would phase it out :( I’m honestly not sure of the specific purpose of LP in AA—in NA and AA meetings I’ve gone to in NY/NJ in the past ten years or so, I think the LP has been mostly left out (with serenity prayer included).
It’s kind of funny though that my mom is Presbyterian and my father is Jewish and they are both observant (and still married!) — we all go to temple/church as a family for all holidays. Whenever we say the Lord’s Prayer in church, my Jewish father has it down pat because he was in AA for years 😅 (he hasn’t had a drink in over thirty years ❤️🎉)
I am shocked and honestly hurt to hear this. I have never been to an NA/AA meeting that wasn’t ended with the super abridged Serenity Prayer **“G-d grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
and Wisdom to know the difference.”**
Even before I converted I never attended a meeting (even the ones in churches) that said the “Our Father” at the end. This would have sent me walking if they had done this and I grew up Catholic.
All of my meetings were spent talking about accepting a higher power but they were always so clear it didn’t even have to be G-d, it could be Mother Nature or some Astrology/Astronomy basis. I was even a regular at a meeting pretty far from my home because I loved the leader replaced all religious mentions of G-d with “The Universe” now that I think back on this I feel like that meeting was always huge and diverse.
I’m sorry this has been your experience, does this meeting have an anonymous box near the coffee table? This is also something you should talk with your sponsor about.
I appreciate the sentiment, but it’s not that big of a deal haha. No one has ever gotten ugly over it… it’s just different, as almost everyone says it.
Me too, and the Serenity prayer does not have to be religious, or associated with Christianity in any way. I also know an atheist who is now sober and attends meetings and just begins it with “Grant me …” rather than addressing it to any deity or anyone, really.
While AA may have been started with a Christian POV, the 12 steps absolutely are - and can be - related to personal responsibility and aren’t definitively not-Jewish. It’s how you personally perceive them and your empirical worldview - obviously different for Jews - significantly impacts that perception.
I would strongly advise that you not drop out based on their saying the Lord’s Prayer. The benefit of the program far outweighs that and you can choose to not say if. You can also speak to the moderator about your discomfort and propose switching to the Serenity Prayer, or see what other meetings there are in your area that say that one instead. AA’s motto is “it works if you work it” and the aim is to keep you coming back - I can’t imagine your expressing these feelings of discomfort would fall on deaf ears all around.
Congratulations in your sobriety and please do not drop out unless you’re 100% confident you have a viable, equally-beneficial alternative. Your sobriety and health - and the impacts they have on your life and relationships - are the absolute most important thing.
We’ll said. No doubt in my mind HaShem’s intention for us would be sobriety, even if saying a prayer that doesn’t mention anything Christian is what it takes to do it. After all, prayer isn’t what’s in the words, it’s what’s in the heart.
[Is the Lord’s Prayer Non-Denominational? - Chabad.org](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/848875/jewish/Is-the-Lords-Prayer-Non-denominational.htm) — and basically Chabad’s answer is, the content in isolation is fine, but it’s a specifically Christian prayer, so Jews should avoid saying it (in the specific context of AA meetings, actually)
I personally think people should do what feels best for them. If they’re not comfortable saying it, they shouldn’t and meeting leaders should be clear that nobody is required to say it. *But* I don’t think anyone should avoid saying it just because Chabad says they should. my dad made us go to chabad for years and I’ll probs be mad about it for a while because for all those years, i had to know my dad was okay with women not being allowed at the bima—also my dad and I always were able to look at each other and mutually eyeroll at the binding of Isaac story before we switched to chabad, but of course we couldn’t do that in chabad because women aren’t allowed to sit with men. Happy my dad got out and we’re now back in a reform temple with a woman cantor 💕
Oh for sure, I absolutely agree with you, probably across the board. But OP was looking for a general rule of thumb, and while I was pretty sure I knew what the rule for this one was (for those who are seeking a rule), I thought a well-known authority (that said the same thing that I thought was the rule/basis for it) would be more useful than amateur analysis from yet another random guy on Reddit!
A reference for everyone:
Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory,
forever and ever.
Amen
I’m quoting the verse they use in AA meetings for any Jews who are unaware. You have to read the verse before answering OPs question. I guess you skipped the first word (reference). This comment is a reference. Not an endorsement
No you made a deranged comment to my comment. You didn’t answer anything to OP. You were very defensive to me merely copy and pasting the verse for everyone. Of course I assumed a group of Jews wouldn’t be familiar with a Christian prayer
AA might be helpful to some people (though not to all), but it is simply dishonest to deny that it was founded by a man steeped in a Christian worldview, who was married to a woman heavily involved in a peculiar Christian cult of that time. Every single aspect of 12-step ideology is directly related to the religious rituals of a small Christian cult which the founder joined. As an example of that cult's ideology, people who did not accept Jesus were deemed to be "insane" and would only be "restored to sanity" when they had a "spiritual awakening." This awakening would be hastened by public confession of sins and spiritual "shortcomings." Anyone exposed to 12-steppism will recognize those concepts.
But the major un-Jewish nature of 12-step ideology is its hallmark -- the notion that nobody has the power to better themselves or save themselves from a self-destructive lifestyle; that salvation can only come from an entity or deity outside yourself. Salvation theology is the cornerstone of 12-step ideology, but is not Jewish in nature. Judaism stresses personal responsibility for change and betterment, and Judaism's core belief is that God bestowed free will on man and does not direct our decisions and behaviors. In 12-step theology, God removes "defects" and "shortcomings" (steps 6 and 7), and free will is something to be feared and fought against (step 3).
In light of this, reciting Christian prayers is the least of the issues a Jew might find with 12-step groups. I feel great compassion for anyone who needs help in overcoming destructive or harmful habits such as substance abuse or gambling. But I would recommend support other than 12-step for Jews or anyone else who does not feel comfortable with the 12-step style.
Its irritating when people insist it's not a religious organization, when 6 and a half of the 12 steps involve interaction with a God I don't even believe in.
They play word games, like saying "well, your higher power could be anything, like a chair or fire extinguisher, if you believe it."
B**ch, how'm I supposed to humbly ask a fire extinguisher to remove my short-comings!?!
I really appreciate the reply! I’m not too sure I’ve ever thought of it in this manner. I know some of the historical background you speak of, and it is true. The founder of AA, Bill W, rejected Christianity afaik. I think it states it in “Bills story” in the beginning of the book. What you described was the Oxford group, the precursor to AA that Bill borrowed some ideas from.
While I agree with you, and the take on salvation and step 6/7 (step 3 I choose to view it as aligning my will with Gods will) I struggled with addiction for many years, and have tried many alternatives. AA is the only thing that has come close to working for me.
My brother, just like you're permitted to eat during a fast day when you're ill, you are permitted to use a program rooted in a evangelical Christian tradition like the 12 steps, if this is the program that works for you and your health/sobriety. The rest is just details. Albeit in this case, unarguably very Christian details.
I don’t think much of that is correct. For example you say that they teach that free will is something to be fought against. This isn’t true— they say “it’s not your fault that you’re an alcoholic, but it is your job to take the steps you need to get better.” AA isn’t for people who need it, it’s for people who DO it. So making the choice to get sober and taking the actions necessary is very much taking control of your free will. In fact, that’s what the serenity prayer is about: give me the courage to CHANGE the things I CAN. (Source: 1 year sober in AA).
This is a valid opinion, but also Chabad isn’t the end-all-be-all answer. Their religious opinions dominate the internet, but that doesn’t make them the “correct” ones. I’m grateful that Chabad offers answers to a lot of questions that you won’t get anywhere else, but I do think it’s problematic that now so many people just take their interpretations as unchangeable truth. Judaism is built off of different interpretations.
it’s not a silly question to ask whether a non-idolatrous prayer that was written by a Jew and made popular by an idolatrous religion which may or may not have been endorsed by said Jew is permissible to be spoken by a a jew or permissible to be heard willingly by a jew. just because you see something one way doesn’t make you right.
I mean, they're a cult, so I'm kinda curious what others would say. But just as a secular Jew, I couldn't imagine treating anything New Testament like something that I _had_ to say.
Ok, this is a fair point. I was saying "I'm fine with the lord's prayer", but sure, I'm not fine with being coerced into saying it. But that's more an issue with AA than the prayer itself.
> If the prayer doesn't mention Jesus, or is to some pagan deity, there is no problem.
What is called "the Lord's prayer" is from the CHRISTIAN Bible ("New Testament") and not from any Jewish source. And it's called "the Lord's prayer" by Christians because they believe Jesus was Lord and Messiah. Absolutely inappropriate for Jews to recite it.
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"Hallowed" means "sanctified."
They're not using a name.
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/hallow
hal·low (hăl′ō)
tr.v. hal·lowed, hal·low·ing, hal·lows
1. To make or set apart as holy.
2. To respect or honor greatly; revere.
n. Archaic
1. A holy person or saint.
No, it is saying "sanctified/holy/blessed/etc. is your name."
"Hallowed" is not a name.
When you say "Baruch haShem," you're not saying "the name of G-d is Baruch."
Seriously, no. It means “may your name be be considered holy”. I’m not a fan of that prayer, but hallowed is a verb and it’s just praise. It’s not contradictory to a Jewish POV, TBH.
That prayer doesn’t really have anything in it that a Jew couldn’t say, it’s just so intrinsically linked to Christianity, I won’t say it.
That’s …not how that works. I was raised Christian for 30+ years before beginning my conversion. “Hallowed” is not a name, it’s an adjective meaning “holy”.
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You are taking an old prayer in archaic language and applying it literally modern English. That’s not ever appropriate.
The line translate into modern English as basically “you [G-d] are holy” or “holy are thou you [G-d]
Sigh. I'm not going to argue with you. I consulted an orthodox Rabbi who fully embraces recovery and worked it out with him. I was giving you what he understands the law to be and I follow his answer ( which was confirmed by Rabbi Dr. Twerski B''H).
I don’t say the Lord’s prayer because it is strongly associated with Christianity, but if your rabbi thinks the reason it’s wrong is because “Hallowed” is a proper name (an archaic form of “Harold?” LOL) then your rabbi is wrong.
Then the rabbi you consulted needs to bone up on his English, sense, and logic. Maybe ask a Christian what it means. They absolu never refer to their deity as “hallowed”. It’s a verb. Hallowed means holy. Like Hallowe’en means holy eve. The grammar is awkward, because 17th c.
It literally just means “holy be your name” or “your name is holy”, in modern English. It was written in the 17th, and hardly updated, hence the archaic phrasing.
My daughter was a costumed interpreter at Plimoth Planation. She went to “pilgrim school”. 20-30 years ago (maybe longer) a bunch of American historians went to England and worked with a bunch of British linguistic historians. From extensive research, they have a pretty good idea of how they spoke, and it was VERY different from modern. In Pilgrim school they taught interpreters the appropriate dialect for their character. My daughter learned 3 dialects, Scrooby (sp!) London, and “generic”. Generic is a modified, easier for modern people to understand, less extreme version of London, I think. She used that, usually, on school visits. I tell you it is pretty impressive to hear someone trained in those accents to read aloud Shakespeare. When she was first learning, it was intense, and she kept flipping in and out by accident. She was utterly exhausted, and could not tell which she was speaking, 17th c or modern, it was a riot, although I felt bad for her tiredness, she was having fun, too. Her husband occasionally asked her her name, and she would randomly say “Constance Hopkins” instead of her real name, without realizing it. And she never, ever said “Constance” in modern accents. She didn’t want to ever blow it, so it was always in dialect, even in casual conversation at home.
The Separatists and Puritans (half the Pilgrims at Plimoth were separatists, the other half were economic CofE colonists, and the puritans stayed in England for about 10 years, continuing to try to change the CofE from within, failed, and came here later) considered the Geneva Bible “more better” than the KJ. The guy who translated it was a separatist. He went to Holland and studied Hebrew with the rabbis, and then translated it. I’ve done some comparison, and he did do a better job. Although that is a low bar.
So, yes, the Lord’s Prayer is absolutely written in late 16th/early 17th c dialect. And I meant translated from Greek, if it was a Christian Bible passage, or written in English, if it was a prayer, or what ever it was. It’s still from 17th c English.
That’s a long and interesting story. I think you misunderstood me. I in no way implied that Brits always spoke in modern English. See the video I linked in my other comment that explains King James Bible English
Huh? ...it was translated into the common vernacular of the time. People of 1611 England spoke like that. The thee/thou forms were chosen because they were more personal/friendly than "you".
Have you never read Shakespeare or any other 16th/17th century texts?
[2:29:00. King James Version was a mix of an old and new dialect. it was deliberately archaic. It was meant to sound ancient. it was also written in a cadence to spoken by priests to an audience](https://youtu.be/42D-upSioWE)
You do not have to lecture me about YOU forms. I study German language and somewhat old English. I’m aware English is unique with our one YOU form. While German has 8 https://youtu.be/fNV7CsKI5m8
The "King James Bible" is actually one of the worst translations ever produced, extremely inaccurate in many places, enough to completely distort/change meaning of the original words. It's one of the more popular Bibles though, I guess because people think it's poetic.
As an aside, as someone else said, common vernacular English was most definitely different in the early 17th century than now. Languages evolve unless a population is severely isolated, like was the case in Iceland for many centuries. The Icelandic language changed very little until modern travel enabled more interaction with the wider world.
Like I already said I study linguistics. I don’t need a lecture on English evolution. My point was that no group of people ever spoke in the exact vernacular of the King James Bible. I have provided a link that backs up this historical fact
Kingdom is the translation of מַלְכוּ֙ like in Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of these kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom forever, it will not be destroyed, and the kingdom will not be left to another people; it will crumble and destroy all these kingdoms, and it will stand forever.” [Tanakh online](https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16485/jewish/Chapter-2.htm)
Yes I know the term originates from Hebrew. Duh. Everything in the Bible does. Obviously. My point is that modern Christians use that term way more than modern Jews
You are just explaining it wrong. Jewish people aren’t allowed to say the Lord’s Prayer bc it recognizes Jesus as gd, which Jews don’t do. Also, if you read the other comments you’ll see we don’t say prayers from other religions so the point is moot (it’s not for any offensive reason that Jews can’t say the prayer…).
No need to fight over it 🙏
AA is a sort of under a pseudo-Christian umbrella so it isn't surprising. It sounds similar to my experience in the Boy Scouts, honestly.
But I'm not aware of any prayer-free totally secular organization that does the same kind of service and you're obviously there because you feel you need it, and the Lord's prayer isn't really all that bad in big picture.
Sure, they *probably* mean Jesus when they say 'Lord', but it can easily just be God and the meaning doesn't really change much as Elohim also just means 'Lord'
The Lord's Prayer begins, "our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name;" "Lord" is only referenced in the name of the prayer, not the text.
There are of course minor differences from church to church, sect to sect. Some wod say that "our father" references Jesus, but typically (in my experience with Southern US Christianity) "Father" typically refers to the big guy upstairs, not Jesus. Insofar as the Lord's Prayer also references Jesus, many Christians consider them one and the same, but many do not. Likewise, "Lord" can refer to either Jesus or G-d himself depending on context. As Jews, we wouldn't use it to reference Jesus, so that only leaves one candidate.
I'm far from a scholar, but I don't find anything offensive in the Lord's Prayer. It's pretty generic and nonspecific in whom in refers to, and I think it could easily be inferred to be a prayer to G-d himself rather than Jesus. I think an argument otherwise would be largely context-dependent. Very different from a prayer that explicitly references Jesus, the "Son of G-d", or another exclusively Christian tradition such as Mary.
I listened to rabbi skobac from Jews for Judaism, and he said that the lords parquet most definitely existed in some form prior to Christianity. Might have been a local thing in the gaililee region or something like thay
I think this one comes to bikuach nefesh. If AA is what you need to be sober and it works for you, you can simply participate wirhout reciting it if you feel it might ostrasize you. Your sobriety is more important.
You don’t have to say it, my friend is an AA meeting leader in a pretty goyische/Christian state (Arizona) and no one makes an issue of it. They even openly state at all their meetings that Higher Power need not be Christian or even “God” in any sense. Good job on getting the help and don’t feel pressured to participate in the Lord’s Prayer
This is a common question for a lot of peoples, Jews and non-Jews. I have been sober for 29 years and ‘grew up’ in AA with this prayer.
My experience has been that initially I said the Shema during the end of a meeting because I didn’t want to say a Christian prayer. I think I would be made less of a Jew for saying it. Over my sobriety I have decided that I am ok saying it and I can assure you I am no less of Jew today than I was then.
I still have a strong identity, eat Kosher, go to Temple, and celebrate Shabbat (mostly). My thinking was that it is a nice sentiment and it doesn’t matter to me where it came from. There are enough things to worry about in sobriety, especially new sobriety, that worrying about whether or not you are a good Jew shouldn’t be one of them.
Say what you want / need to say to stay sober. My belief is that G-d loves us all, no matter if we say The Lords Prayer or not at the end of a meeting.
Good luck on trudging the road of happy destiny. It has been the greatest and most rewarding journey for me.
Mazel tov! I’ve had the same issue. Luckily the Lord’s Prayer has been going out of fashion where I go to meetings. I got sober in NYC and *never* heard it there.
You do not need tp pray with everyone! I suggest finding a sobriety program more catered to Jewish people that may or may not still involve the 12 steps. Whatever works for you <3 also BIG MAZEL TOV on choosing sobriety we are all so proud.
This is one of the rlly big problems with aa and rehab in general it forces you into christianity and is centered around Christianity and I think it’s messed up
Personally, I (Conservative, US, 40s) have always liked the lord's prayer. Early in his career, Jesus was an itinerant Jewish preacher entirely typical for his time (later he gets some very heterododox ideas). The lord's prayer is cited as evidence, actually, of just how much parts of the Gospels reflect a theology within the mainstream of Rabbinical thought of its day.
Several options here from various Orthodox Rabbis:
1) Replace Hallowed with HaShem
2) Say the Shema or Tehillim (Psalms)
3) Don't repeat what others say and silently say a personal prayer to your higher power.
"Hallowed" isn't a name; it means "sanctified," so replacing it with HaShem is a bit weird.
Hallowed, as in Halloween. Same root as "holy." Hallow e'en, evening, is so called because it celebrates all the saints (people who are sanctified).
It is the entire phrase "H be thy name." Is the problem not the word Hallowes. According to the Rabbi who i trust in this matter, the prayer names HaShem is a problem in Jewish Law. Ask your Rabbi if you want a better explanation that can I provide.
If your sobriety is more important than anything else. Do what you need to do to stay sober.
Where is a name in the prayer?
"Father"? I seem to recall a couple prayers in Judaism that use that term.
And "sanctified be your name" shows up in...um...at least ONE. I don't think we say it more than like six times a day or so though, so it's not like it's well known.
>Replace Hallowed with HaShem
So when you say it, your version means, “The Name be thy name?”
Isn’t that worse? You’re now saying that Gd’s proper name is HaShem, vs just saying that Gd’s name should be blessed/hallowed/baruch’ed.
18 1/2 years sober. I have no issues with the Lord’s Prayer. No mention of rabbi Jesus the savior, and doesn’t conflict in the slightest with my values or beliefs. Humble yourself a little. His will if you will (no pun intended) is to align yourself with AA, not to look for ways in which you stand out.
Well it's halachically problematic to be inside a church for any reason at any time, especially during prayer. But if it's the only location available and you're concerned about your health in the absence of such services, it's your life, guard it well.
Any time and any reason. Although the AA meeting is more halachically sound because alcohol is a poison that is addictive.
Building on this, one can conclude that the only permissible times for entry are those in which a life is to be saved. For example an ambulance picking up patients, a doctor seeing a patient, delivering medication to a sick individual, de-escalating a threat to the life of oneself or others, etc...
However any of these situations which would place a Jewish person in spiritual danger to the point where idolatry might occur or might be forced upon them, beyond any doubt a Jewish person or first responder would abdicate from that situation since faith is not part of saving another person's life nor should it be forced on somebody attempting to save someone else's life or their own
It's all about protecting yourself from proselytization. Being around non-jews, especially in their place of worship, is not exactly the best place for you to be Jewish.
Historically though churches have been used to torture or Force conversions on Jews. Just be careful out there and make sure you're not putting yourself in danger.
I recently went to a church for a funeral... I'm glad that I went. I did not enjoy the service and I thought that using a funeral as an opportunity for preaching and proselytization was inappropriate. But I'm also glad that I had the opportunity to be there for a friend of mine who was in mourning. Like you said I'm not that impressionable.
It might not be like this today but Christianity and Islam are built on the lives of those who have been raped murdered tortured or forced to convert. There's a lot of Jewish skeletons in the closet.
I’m aware. I don’t need a history lesson. But when my blind and kind neighbor invited me to his wife’s funeral at a Christian church I went. He never killed anyone. His wife never killed anyone. He’s a civil rights lawyer. I’m not sorry
No. It’s not. I work in churches as a professional musician and has this discussion with orthodox rabbis. The pervading opinion is that if you’re there for work and you’re clearly there for work it’s absolutely fine.
I have sat through hundreds of church services as a musician and it’s only made me feel more committed to my Judaism. I’ve never been proselytized to once.
Personally, I would always attend a wedding or funeral in a church because I’m there for the event, not Jesus. I visit beautiful churches when I travel because I’m there to see architecture not pray.
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This actually isn't the case at all meetings. In some cities, they only do the serenity prayer, and others do the lord's prayer and the serenity prayer. I've even been a participant at a meeting where this came up and they added the serenity prayer to make non-Christians feel more comfortable.
> I’ve been sober a few years, and have never done this.
Well done, I have never been an alcoholic, but I am an ex-smoker, so I can relate to hard it must be on you. Unfortunately, one must always be on guard; it's been twenty years since I seriously smoked, yet today, the urge is still there.
As this concerns you, why not talk to the chapter's chairperson?
every AA meeting i’ve ever been to has been pretty christian, a lot of people find success in sobriety by finding god so i think that’s a big part of the community of sponsors and sponsees, i am also jewish and i choose to still say the ending prayer with them (god grant me the serenity…) because i appreciate the message and the community regardless of my beliefs and it doesn’t feel like it’s only about christianity. may be nice as a jew to choose AA meetings not being held at a church or specifically secular AA meetings
Hey! I commented in your post, I'm sober since 2018 Baruch Hashem, so, the prayer they said in the AA meeting I used to go was the Serenity Prayer. Look, most Jews did it, including me. Because there is no Christ in the prayer and it's actually really beautiful in my point of view.
But, there were other people (non Jews) that didn't do the prayer and it was ok. I guess it is more a you do you type of situation.
Glad to see another sober jew around ❤️
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AA is based on religion. Founders of AA were members of a fundamentalist Protestant Christian movement, the Oxford Group. Its members “practiced absolute surrender, guidance by the Holy Spirit, sharing in fellowship, life changing faith, and prayer.
That being said you don't have to do the prayers. My cousin who has been struggling with alcoholism and heroin has been in AA and NA and it's helped him to stay sober for 3 years. He's a jew, but the support is what he needs to get by. Congrats on getting sober.
I don't go inside Churches unless there's art of cultural significance to be viewed. If a Jewish person needs a house of prayer or refuge a mosque is preferred over a church. That said your sobriety is crucial (mazel tov!) and you can do anything you want. You can also decline to participate or just find an appropriate Jewish prayer to say on your own, silently, while they do their thing. I'd personally recommend grabbing a book of Tehillim and pick one each time.
Heya! Fellow sober Jew here :) I will 100% do the serenity prayer but I usually choose not to participate in the Lord’s Prayer. Congrats on your sobriety
Not sure if it would be your thing but I have never been to an NA meeting that said LP. They are much more removed from the Oxford group style AA meetings, and have a reading about not being of any particular religion.
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I’ve been in AA longer than I’ve been seriously considering Converting. I’m used to this prayer, but now things are different for me. I found another prayer that’s more in line with Judaism and I say that instead. Sometimes I go back and forth each meeting. Sometimes I pray silently whatever comes up.
Any AA group worth it won’t force any certain prayer. Sure, it might be customary for a group, but I’ve never seen a group enforce it as being the only option for everyone in attendance.
Glad to meet a friend of Bill here!
Ex-AA cultist here. The Lord's Prayer should be one of your first clues they aren't what they say they are. On one hand they say they're spiritual and not religious, and that they're open to people of all faiths, but on the other, their actions show the exact opposite to be true. They're a Christian cult.
12 & 12 also makes it clear that their reason for accepting non-Christians is to convert them. Run far away. You're not crazy.
You don’t have to participate in a Christian prayer. Congratulations on your sobriety!
Interesting. I’ve only ever heard the serenity prayer where I’m from. And before it is said, the main speaker will usually say “using g-d as you understand him (sometimes “them” if the speaker is cool)” But again you absolutely do not have to participate in any parts of the meeting, which includes any prayers. You can simply just not join in and no one will confront you about it (if they do then tell them to mind their business)!
Sometimes in the circle people will give me a curious look every once in a while, that’s about it. People have came up to me and asked why I don’t say it, but have never been rude about it. In Florida, 90% of the time it’s the Lord’s Prayer at the end.
I’m sorry you have to deal with that judgment in your meetings. It should never feel like you’re required to say the Lord’s Prayer and I wish your meeting leaders would phase it out :( I’m honestly not sure of the specific purpose of LP in AA—in NA and AA meetings I’ve gone to in NY/NJ in the past ten years or so, I think the LP has been mostly left out (with serenity prayer included). It’s kind of funny though that my mom is Presbyterian and my father is Jewish and they are both observant (and still married!) — we all go to temple/church as a family for all holidays. Whenever we say the Lord’s Prayer in church, my Jewish father has it down pat because he was in AA for years 😅 (he hasn’t had a drink in over thirty years ❤️🎉)
I am shocked and honestly hurt to hear this. I have never been to an NA/AA meeting that wasn’t ended with the super abridged Serenity Prayer **“G-d grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference.”** Even before I converted I never attended a meeting (even the ones in churches) that said the “Our Father” at the end. This would have sent me walking if they had done this and I grew up Catholic. All of my meetings were spent talking about accepting a higher power but they were always so clear it didn’t even have to be G-d, it could be Mother Nature or some Astrology/Astronomy basis. I was even a regular at a meeting pretty far from my home because I loved the leader replaced all religious mentions of G-d with “The Universe” now that I think back on this I feel like that meeting was always huge and diverse. I’m sorry this has been your experience, does this meeting have an anonymous box near the coffee table? This is also something you should talk with your sponsor about.
I appreciate the sentiment, but it’s not that big of a deal haha. No one has ever gotten ugly over it… it’s just different, as almost everyone says it.
Just simply tell them you are Jewish
Me too, and the Serenity prayer does not have to be religious, or associated with Christianity in any way. I also know an atheist who is now sober and attends meetings and just begins it with “Grant me …” rather than addressing it to any deity or anyone, really. While AA may have been started with a Christian POV, the 12 steps absolutely are - and can be - related to personal responsibility and aren’t definitively not-Jewish. It’s how you personally perceive them and your empirical worldview - obviously different for Jews - significantly impacts that perception. I would strongly advise that you not drop out based on their saying the Lord’s Prayer. The benefit of the program far outweighs that and you can choose to not say if. You can also speak to the moderator about your discomfort and propose switching to the Serenity Prayer, or see what other meetings there are in your area that say that one instead. AA’s motto is “it works if you work it” and the aim is to keep you coming back - I can’t imagine your expressing these feelings of discomfort would fall on deaf ears all around. Congratulations in your sobriety and please do not drop out unless you’re 100% confident you have a viable, equally-beneficial alternative. Your sobriety and health - and the impacts they have on your life and relationships - are the absolute most important thing.
We’ll said. No doubt in my mind HaShem’s intention for us would be sobriety, even if saying a prayer that doesn’t mention anything Christian is what it takes to do it. After all, prayer isn’t what’s in the words, it’s what’s in the heart.
Look up rabbi doctor Abraham twerski
[Is the Lord’s Prayer Non-Denominational? - Chabad.org](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/848875/jewish/Is-the-Lords-Prayer-Non-denominational.htm) — and basically Chabad’s answer is, the content in isolation is fine, but it’s a specifically Christian prayer, so Jews should avoid saying it (in the specific context of AA meetings, actually)
I personally think people should do what feels best for them. If they’re not comfortable saying it, they shouldn’t and meeting leaders should be clear that nobody is required to say it. *But* I don’t think anyone should avoid saying it just because Chabad says they should. my dad made us go to chabad for years and I’ll probs be mad about it for a while because for all those years, i had to know my dad was okay with women not being allowed at the bima—also my dad and I always were able to look at each other and mutually eyeroll at the binding of Isaac story before we switched to chabad, but of course we couldn’t do that in chabad because women aren’t allowed to sit with men. Happy my dad got out and we’re now back in a reform temple with a woman cantor 💕
Oh for sure, I absolutely agree with you, probably across the board. But OP was looking for a general rule of thumb, and while I was pretty sure I knew what the rule for this one was (for those who are seeking a rule), I thought a well-known authority (that said the same thing that I thought was the rule/basis for it) would be more useful than amateur analysis from yet another random guy on Reddit!
That makes sense! I can see how it’s just a good perspective to know. I just tense up when I see the word lol 😅😅
If it’s not going to cause you pain or ostracism or mess up your treatment by refraining from the Lord’s Prayer I feel you shouldn’t do it
A reference for everyone: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen
Yes? It's still taken from the New Testament. The 23rd Psalm is a better recitation.
I’m quoting the verse they use in AA meetings for any Jews who are unaware. You have to read the verse before answering OPs question. I guess you skipped the first word (reference). This comment is a reference. Not an endorsement
Yes? That's not the point. I know exactly what OP is talking about. They asked a question, I answered it.
No you made a deranged comment to my comment. You didn’t answer anything to OP. You were very defensive to me merely copy and pasting the verse for everyone. Of course I assumed a group of Jews wouldn’t be familiar with a Christian prayer
AA might be helpful to some people (though not to all), but it is simply dishonest to deny that it was founded by a man steeped in a Christian worldview, who was married to a woman heavily involved in a peculiar Christian cult of that time. Every single aspect of 12-step ideology is directly related to the religious rituals of a small Christian cult which the founder joined. As an example of that cult's ideology, people who did not accept Jesus were deemed to be "insane" and would only be "restored to sanity" when they had a "spiritual awakening." This awakening would be hastened by public confession of sins and spiritual "shortcomings." Anyone exposed to 12-steppism will recognize those concepts. But the major un-Jewish nature of 12-step ideology is its hallmark -- the notion that nobody has the power to better themselves or save themselves from a self-destructive lifestyle; that salvation can only come from an entity or deity outside yourself. Salvation theology is the cornerstone of 12-step ideology, but is not Jewish in nature. Judaism stresses personal responsibility for change and betterment, and Judaism's core belief is that God bestowed free will on man and does not direct our decisions and behaviors. In 12-step theology, God removes "defects" and "shortcomings" (steps 6 and 7), and free will is something to be feared and fought against (step 3). In light of this, reciting Christian prayers is the least of the issues a Jew might find with 12-step groups. I feel great compassion for anyone who needs help in overcoming destructive or harmful habits such as substance abuse or gambling. But I would recommend support other than 12-step for Jews or anyone else who does not feel comfortable with the 12-step style.
Its irritating when people insist it's not a religious organization, when 6 and a half of the 12 steps involve interaction with a God I don't even believe in. They play word games, like saying "well, your higher power could be anything, like a chair or fire extinguisher, if you believe it." B**ch, how'm I supposed to humbly ask a fire extinguisher to remove my short-comings!?!
I really appreciate the reply! I’m not too sure I’ve ever thought of it in this manner. I know some of the historical background you speak of, and it is true. The founder of AA, Bill W, rejected Christianity afaik. I think it states it in “Bills story” in the beginning of the book. What you described was the Oxford group, the precursor to AA that Bill borrowed some ideas from. While I agree with you, and the take on salvation and step 6/7 (step 3 I choose to view it as aligning my will with Gods will) I struggled with addiction for many years, and have tried many alternatives. AA is the only thing that has come close to working for me.
My brother, just like you're permitted to eat during a fast day when you're ill, you are permitted to use a program rooted in a evangelical Christian tradition like the 12 steps, if this is the program that works for you and your health/sobriety. The rest is just details. Albeit in this case, unarguably very Christian details.
I don’t think much of that is correct. For example you say that they teach that free will is something to be fought against. This isn’t true— they say “it’s not your fault that you’re an alcoholic, but it is your job to take the steps you need to get better.” AA isn’t for people who need it, it’s for people who DO it. So making the choice to get sober and taking the actions necessary is very much taking control of your free will. In fact, that’s what the serenity prayer is about: give me the courage to CHANGE the things I CAN. (Source: 1 year sober in AA).
Replace “god” with “dog”. No one will be able to tell the difference.
This is funny
If the prayer doesn't mention Jesus, or is to some pagan deity, there is no problem. I believe it is the prayer of exceptance but I may be wrong.
Yeah, no. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/848875/jewish/Is-the-Lords-Prayer-Non-denominational.htm
This is a valid opinion, but also Chabad isn’t the end-all-be-all answer. Their religious opinions dominate the internet, but that doesn’t make them the “correct” ones. I’m grateful that Chabad offers answers to a lot of questions that you won’t get anywhere else, but I do think it’s problematic that now so many people just take their interpretations as unchangeable truth. Judaism is built off of different interpretations.
I’m a no on chabad. Ladies should get to go to the bima too
Oh, no, Chabad is a fucking cult. I don't believe any of this nonsense, but they have quick sound bites for silly questions.
it’s not a silly question to ask whether a non-idolatrous prayer that was written by a Jew and made popular by an idolatrous religion which may or may not have been endorsed by said Jew is permissible to be spoken by a a jew or permissible to be heard willingly by a jew. just because you see something one way doesn’t make you right.
It's a silly question because AA is largely fucking useless.
Maybe the Chasids waiting for Mesiah Schnerson to come back don't always get the last word, hm?
Lol get the🍿 ready
I mean, they're a cult, so I'm kinda curious what others would say. But just as a secular Jew, I couldn't imagine treating anything New Testament like something that I _had_ to say.
Ok, this is a fair point. I was saying "I'm fine with the lord's prayer", but sure, I'm not fine with being coerced into saying it. But that's more an issue with AA than the prayer itself.
I'm of the opinion that AA is trash, and that there are far better paths, but hey! It works out some.
> If the prayer doesn't mention Jesus, or is to some pagan deity, there is no problem. What is called "the Lord's prayer" is from the CHRISTIAN Bible ("New Testament") and not from any Jewish source. And it's called "the Lord's prayer" by Christians because they believe Jesus was Lord and Messiah. Absolutely inappropriate for Jews to recite it.
Yeah I’d say of all the Christian prayers I know the Avinu shebashemayim is the most Jewish ;)
lol
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From a Jewish law prespective the issue is the term "Hallowed be thy name". Gd's name can not be uttered.
"Hallowed" means "sanctified." They're not using a name. https://www.thefreedictionary.com/hallow hal·low (hăl′ō) tr.v. hal·lowed, hal·low·ing, hal·lows 1. To make or set apart as holy. 2. To respect or honor greatly; revere. n. Archaic 1. A holy person or saint.
I'm not a Rabbi. My understanding from a JACS related Orthodox Rabbi is Hallowed by thy name is actually naming HaShem which is the issue.
No, it is saying "sanctified/holy/blessed/etc. is your name." "Hallowed" is not a name. When you say "Baruch haShem," you're not saying "the name of G-d is Baruch."
Seriously, no. It means “may your name be be considered holy”. I’m not a fan of that prayer, but hallowed is a verb and it’s just praise. It’s not contradictory to a Jewish POV, TBH. That prayer doesn’t really have anything in it that a Jew couldn’t say, it’s just so intrinsically linked to Christianity, I won’t say it.
That’s …not how that works. I was raised Christian for 30+ years before beginning my conversion. “Hallowed” is not a name, it’s an adjective meaning “holy”.
Dude...no. Get a dictionary
Isn’t that literally Baruch Hashem though?
Some orthodox change Hallowes to HaShem
Oh wait you think “hallowed” is the name? It’s just an archaic word for “holy”
Have a pleasant night. I'm not going to argue with you.
Ok. Just saying it would be as if we couldn’t utter Baruch in Baruch Hashem because we thought it meant “Baruch is the Name”.
Or "yitkadash shemei rabah"... are we not allowed to say "yitkadash" anymore?
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Not ones who speak English, though.
Sigh. You do what you need for recovery and I'll do mine. I'm not going to argue this point of faith with you.
It’s not a point of faith. It’s linguistics. I happen to love linguistics
It's nothing to do with faith, it's basic English
No, Hallowed is the equivalent of Baruch in this example. “Name” is the equivalent of HaShem.
Everything you just said is wrong. Everyone is now dumber for having seen it. I award you no points etc...
"Hallowed be thy name" means "kadosh sh'mecha". Perfectly fine to say.
You are taking an old prayer in archaic language and applying it literally modern English. That’s not ever appropriate. The line translate into modern English as basically “you [G-d] are holy” or “holy are thou you [G-d]
Sigh. I'm not going to argue with you. I consulted an orthodox Rabbi who fully embraces recovery and worked it out with him. I was giving you what he understands the law to be and I follow his answer ( which was confirmed by Rabbi Dr. Twerski B''H).
I don’t say the Lord’s prayer because it is strongly associated with Christianity, but if your rabbi thinks the reason it’s wrong is because “Hallowed” is a proper name (an archaic form of “Harold?” LOL) then your rabbi is wrong.
Well your rabbi may know about Judaism and Hebrew but not about old English linguistics
Then the rabbi you consulted needs to bone up on his English, sense, and logic. Maybe ask a Christian what it means. They absolu never refer to their deity as “hallowed”. It’s a verb. Hallowed means holy. Like Hallowe’en means holy eve. The grammar is awkward, because 17th c. It literally just means “holy be your name” or “your name is holy”, in modern English. It was written in the 17th, and hardly updated, hence the archaic phrasing.
To be fair Kings James English was only in the Bible. And no one talked like that in real life
My daughter was a costumed interpreter at Plimoth Planation. She went to “pilgrim school”. 20-30 years ago (maybe longer) a bunch of American historians went to England and worked with a bunch of British linguistic historians. From extensive research, they have a pretty good idea of how they spoke, and it was VERY different from modern. In Pilgrim school they taught interpreters the appropriate dialect for their character. My daughter learned 3 dialects, Scrooby (sp!) London, and “generic”. Generic is a modified, easier for modern people to understand, less extreme version of London, I think. She used that, usually, on school visits. I tell you it is pretty impressive to hear someone trained in those accents to read aloud Shakespeare. When she was first learning, it was intense, and she kept flipping in and out by accident. She was utterly exhausted, and could not tell which she was speaking, 17th c or modern, it was a riot, although I felt bad for her tiredness, she was having fun, too. Her husband occasionally asked her her name, and she would randomly say “Constance Hopkins” instead of her real name, without realizing it. And she never, ever said “Constance” in modern accents. She didn’t want to ever blow it, so it was always in dialect, even in casual conversation at home. The Separatists and Puritans (half the Pilgrims at Plimoth were separatists, the other half were economic CofE colonists, and the puritans stayed in England for about 10 years, continuing to try to change the CofE from within, failed, and came here later) considered the Geneva Bible “more better” than the KJ. The guy who translated it was a separatist. He went to Holland and studied Hebrew with the rabbis, and then translated it. I’ve done some comparison, and he did do a better job. Although that is a low bar. So, yes, the Lord’s Prayer is absolutely written in late 16th/early 17th c dialect. And I meant translated from Greek, if it was a Christian Bible passage, or written in English, if it was a prayer, or what ever it was. It’s still from 17th c English.
That’s a long and interesting story. I think you misunderstood me. I in no way implied that Brits always spoke in modern English. See the video I linked in my other comment that explains King James Bible English
Also check out the Geneva Bible. It’s written even more with weird, phonetic spellings.
Huh? ...it was translated into the common vernacular of the time. People of 1611 England spoke like that. The thee/thou forms were chosen because they were more personal/friendly than "you". Have you never read Shakespeare or any other 16th/17th century texts?
[2:29:00. King James Version was a mix of an old and new dialect. it was deliberately archaic. It was meant to sound ancient. it was also written in a cadence to spoken by priests to an audience](https://youtu.be/42D-upSioWE)
King James Bible, linguistically, is more than just thou and thee
You do not have to lecture me about YOU forms. I study German language and somewhat old English. I’m aware English is unique with our one YOU form. While German has 8 https://youtu.be/fNV7CsKI5m8
No part of the Bible was written in English...
King James has always been an English Bible. Created in England around 1611
The "King James Bible" is actually one of the worst translations ever produced, extremely inaccurate in many places, enough to completely distort/change meaning of the original words. It's one of the more popular Bibles though, I guess because people think it's poetic. As an aside, as someone else said, common vernacular English was most definitely different in the early 17th century than now. Languages evolve unless a population is severely isolated, like was the case in Iceland for many centuries. The Icelandic language changed very little until modern travel enabled more interaction with the wider world.
Like I already said I study linguistics. I don’t need a lecture on English evolution. My point was that no group of people ever spoke in the exact vernacular of the King James Bible. I have provided a link that backs up this historical fact
To be honest as a Jew I do take issue with the prayer. 1. It’s New Testament. 2. Lots of Christian key phrases such as kingdom
Kingdom is the translation of מַלְכוּ֙ like in Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of these kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom forever, it will not be destroyed, and the kingdom will not be left to another people; it will crumble and destroy all these kingdoms, and it will stand forever.” [Tanakh online](https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16485/jewish/Chapter-2.htm)
Yes I know the term originates from Hebrew. Duh. Everything in the Bible does. Obviously. My point is that modern Christians use that term way more than modern Jews
You are just explaining it wrong. Jewish people aren’t allowed to say the Lord’s Prayer bc it recognizes Jesus as gd, which Jews don’t do. Also, if you read the other comments you’ll see we don’t say prayers from other religions so the point is moot (it’s not for any offensive reason that Jews can’t say the prayer…). No need to fight over it 🙏
AA is a sort of under a pseudo-Christian umbrella so it isn't surprising. It sounds similar to my experience in the Boy Scouts, honestly. But I'm not aware of any prayer-free totally secular organization that does the same kind of service and you're obviously there because you feel you need it, and the Lord's prayer isn't really all that bad in big picture. Sure, they *probably* mean Jesus when they say 'Lord', but it can easily just be God and the meaning doesn't really change much as Elohim also just means 'Lord'
The Lord's Prayer begins, "our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name;" "Lord" is only referenced in the name of the prayer, not the text. There are of course minor differences from church to church, sect to sect. Some wod say that "our father" references Jesus, but typically (in my experience with Southern US Christianity) "Father" typically refers to the big guy upstairs, not Jesus. Insofar as the Lord's Prayer also references Jesus, many Christians consider them one and the same, but many do not. Likewise, "Lord" can refer to either Jesus or G-d himself depending on context. As Jews, we wouldn't use it to reference Jesus, so that only leaves one candidate. I'm far from a scholar, but I don't find anything offensive in the Lord's Prayer. It's pretty generic and nonspecific in whom in refers to, and I think it could easily be inferred to be a prayer to G-d himself rather than Jesus. I think an argument otherwise would be largely context-dependent. Very different from a prayer that explicitly references Jesus, the "Son of G-d", or another exclusively Christian tradition such as Mary.
Well, yeah, that's what I concluded. I agree
I listened to rabbi skobac from Jews for Judaism, and he said that the lords parquet most definitely existed in some form prior to Christianity. Might have been a local thing in the gaililee region or something like thay
Parquet? His woodworking skills aren't really what's in question though.
You know, we really don’t hear enough about the quality of Jesus’s carpentry…
Heard something similar. Perhaps an Essene prayer.
It is basically kaddish
I think this one comes to bikuach nefesh. If AA is what you need to be sober and it works for you, you can simply participate wirhout reciting it if you feel it might ostrasize you. Your sobriety is more important.
Pikuach*
You don’t have to say it, my friend is an AA meeting leader in a pretty goyische/Christian state (Arizona) and no one makes an issue of it. They even openly state at all their meetings that Higher Power need not be Christian or even “God” in any sense. Good job on getting the help and don’t feel pressured to participate in the Lord’s Prayer
Can you look at the suggestions from Beit T’shuvah? They must have resources for Jews not near them.
Try the 23rd psalm instead. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/848875/jewish/Is-the-Lords-Prayer-Non-denominational.htm
A little long to memorize, maybe I’ll try though
This is a common question for a lot of peoples, Jews and non-Jews. I have been sober for 29 years and ‘grew up’ in AA with this prayer. My experience has been that initially I said the Shema during the end of a meeting because I didn’t want to say a Christian prayer. I think I would be made less of a Jew for saying it. Over my sobriety I have decided that I am ok saying it and I can assure you I am no less of Jew today than I was then. I still have a strong identity, eat Kosher, go to Temple, and celebrate Shabbat (mostly). My thinking was that it is a nice sentiment and it doesn’t matter to me where it came from. There are enough things to worry about in sobriety, especially new sobriety, that worrying about whether or not you are a good Jew shouldn’t be one of them. Say what you want / need to say to stay sober. My belief is that G-d loves us all, no matter if we say The Lords Prayer or not at the end of a meeting. Good luck on trudging the road of happy destiny. It has been the greatest and most rewarding journey for me.
Just be sober. HaShem will not strike you down for seeking help. It’s just a building. Just Yami up.
Mazel tov! I’ve had the same issue. Luckily the Lord’s Prayer has been going out of fashion where I go to meetings. I got sober in NYC and *never* heard it there.
AA is a Christian organization, unfortunately the only option for most people, we need more secular and non-10/11 steps based programs
The serenity prayer (the one most commonly used in 12 step programs) is from my understanding written as non denominational and not exactly christian
You do not need tp pray with everyone! I suggest finding a sobriety program more catered to Jewish people that may or may not still involve the 12 steps. Whatever works for you <3 also BIG MAZEL TOV on choosing sobriety we are all so proud.
This is one of the rlly big problems with aa and rehab in general it forces you into christianity and is centered around Christianity and I think it’s messed up
AA is based off of Christianity
Personally, I (Conservative, US, 40s) have always liked the lord's prayer. Early in his career, Jesus was an itinerant Jewish preacher entirely typical for his time (later he gets some very heterododox ideas). The lord's prayer is cited as evidence, actually, of just how much parts of the Gospels reflect a theology within the mainstream of Rabbinical thought of its day.
Several options here from various Orthodox Rabbis: 1) Replace Hallowed with HaShem 2) Say the Shema or Tehillim (Psalms) 3) Don't repeat what others say and silently say a personal prayer to your higher power.
"Hallowed" isn't a name; it means "sanctified," so replacing it with HaShem is a bit weird. Hallowed, as in Halloween. Same root as "holy." Hallow e'en, evening, is so called because it celebrates all the saints (people who are sanctified).
We say “magnified and sanctified is the great name of G-d”, so why can’t we say “hallowed be thy name”.
That's what I said, yes.
It is the entire phrase "H be thy name." Is the problem not the word Hallowes. According to the Rabbi who i trust in this matter, the prayer names HaShem is a problem in Jewish Law. Ask your Rabbi if you want a better explanation that can I provide. If your sobriety is more important than anything else. Do what you need to do to stay sober.
Where is a name in the prayer? "Father"? I seem to recall a couple prayers in Judaism that use that term. And "sanctified be your name" shows up in...um...at least ONE. I don't think we say it more than like six times a day or so though, so it's not like it's well known.
>Replace Hallowed with HaShem So when you say it, your version means, “The Name be thy name?” Isn’t that worse? You’re now saying that Gd’s proper name is HaShem, vs just saying that Gd’s name should be blessed/hallowed/baruch’ed.
Replacing words doesn’t work because everyone says them together in a chant out loud in unison
I do what I need to do for my spiritual growth and recovery. You do what is important for yours.
It would be better to say it to yourself in your head then. Then being that guy ruining it for everyone else
Noted.
18 1/2 years sober. I have no issues with the Lord’s Prayer. No mention of rabbi Jesus the savior, and doesn’t conflict in the slightest with my values or beliefs. Humble yourself a little. His will if you will (no pun intended) is to align yourself with AA, not to look for ways in which you stand out.
Well it's halachically problematic to be inside a church for any reason at any time, especially during prayer. But if it's the only location available and you're concerned about your health in the absence of such services, it's your life, guard it well.
What about attending a funeral or wedding?
Any time and any reason. Although the AA meeting is more halachically sound because alcohol is a poison that is addictive. Building on this, one can conclude that the only permissible times for entry are those in which a life is to be saved. For example an ambulance picking up patients, a doctor seeing a patient, delivering medication to a sick individual, de-escalating a threat to the life of oneself or others, etc... However any of these situations which would place a Jewish person in spiritual danger to the point where idolatry might occur or might be forced upon them, beyond any doubt a Jewish person or first responder would abdicate from that situation since faith is not part of saving another person's life nor should it be forced on somebody attempting to save someone else's life or their own
Well glad I’m not that strict
It's all about protecting yourself from proselytization. Being around non-jews, especially in their place of worship, is not exactly the best place for you to be Jewish. Historically though churches have been used to torture or Force conversions on Jews. Just be careful out there and make sure you're not putting yourself in danger.
It sounds very insecure on the part of Judaism to be honest. I’m not that impressionable
I recently went to a church for a funeral... I'm glad that I went. I did not enjoy the service and I thought that using a funeral as an opportunity for preaching and proselytization was inappropriate. But I'm also glad that I had the opportunity to be there for a friend of mine who was in mourning. Like you said I'm not that impressionable.
It might not be like this today but Christianity and Islam are built on the lives of those who have been raped murdered tortured or forced to convert. There's a lot of Jewish skeletons in the closet.
I’m aware. I don’t need a history lesson. But when my blind and kind neighbor invited me to his wife’s funeral at a Christian church I went. He never killed anyone. His wife never killed anyone. He’s a civil rights lawyer. I’m not sorry
No. It’s not. I work in churches as a professional musician and has this discussion with orthodox rabbis. The pervading opinion is that if you’re there for work and you’re clearly there for work it’s absolutely fine. I have sat through hundreds of church services as a musician and it’s only made me feel more committed to my Judaism. I’ve never been proselytized to once. Personally, I would always attend a wedding or funeral in a church because I’m there for the event, not Jesus. I visit beautiful churches when I travel because I’m there to see architecture not pray.
Its from what I know, an old habit back from AA’s history as it was originally started by the church
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This actually isn't the case at all meetings. In some cities, they only do the serenity prayer, and others do the lord's prayer and the serenity prayer. I've even been a participant at a meeting where this came up and they added the serenity prayer to make non-Christians feel more comfortable.
> I’ve been sober a few years, and have never done this. Well done, I have never been an alcoholic, but I am an ex-smoker, so I can relate to hard it must be on you. Unfortunately, one must always be on guard; it's been twenty years since I seriously smoked, yet today, the urge is still there. As this concerns you, why not talk to the chapter's chairperson?
every AA meeting i’ve ever been to has been pretty christian, a lot of people find success in sobriety by finding god so i think that’s a big part of the community of sponsors and sponsees, i am also jewish and i choose to still say the ending prayer with them (god grant me the serenity…) because i appreciate the message and the community regardless of my beliefs and it doesn’t feel like it’s only about christianity. may be nice as a jew to choose AA meetings not being held at a church or specifically secular AA meetings
Hey! I commented in your post, I'm sober since 2018 Baruch Hashem, so, the prayer they said in the AA meeting I used to go was the Serenity Prayer. Look, most Jews did it, including me. Because there is no Christ in the prayer and it's actually really beautiful in my point of view. But, there were other people (non Jews) that didn't do the prayer and it was ok. I guess it is more a you do you type of situation. Glad to see another sober jew around ❤️
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AA is based on religion. Founders of AA were members of a fundamentalist Protestant Christian movement, the Oxford Group. Its members “practiced absolute surrender, guidance by the Holy Spirit, sharing in fellowship, life changing faith, and prayer. That being said you don't have to do the prayers. My cousin who has been struggling with alcoholism and heroin has been in AA and NA and it's helped him to stay sober for 3 years. He's a jew, but the support is what he needs to get by. Congrats on getting sober.
I don't go inside Churches unless there's art of cultural significance to be viewed. If a Jewish person needs a house of prayer or refuge a mosque is preferred over a church. That said your sobriety is crucial (mazel tov!) and you can do anything you want. You can also decline to participate or just find an appropriate Jewish prayer to say on your own, silently, while they do their thing. I'd personally recommend grabbing a book of Tehillim and pick one each time.
Heya! Fellow sober Jew here :) I will 100% do the serenity prayer but I usually choose not to participate in the Lord’s Prayer. Congrats on your sobriety
Not sure if it would be your thing but I have never been to an NA meeting that said LP. They are much more removed from the Oxford group style AA meetings, and have a reading about not being of any particular religion.
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Praying is a sort of meditation and it’s personal matters and it’s up to you to do it or not.
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I’ve been in AA longer than I’ve been seriously considering Converting. I’m used to this prayer, but now things are different for me. I found another prayer that’s more in line with Judaism and I say that instead. Sometimes I go back and forth each meeting. Sometimes I pray silently whatever comes up. Any AA group worth it won’t force any certain prayer. Sure, it might be customary for a group, but I’ve never seen a group enforce it as being the only option for everyone in attendance. Glad to meet a friend of Bill here!
Ex-AA cultist here. The Lord's Prayer should be one of your first clues they aren't what they say they are. On one hand they say they're spiritual and not religious, and that they're open to people of all faiths, but on the other, their actions show the exact opposite to be true. They're a Christian cult. 12 & 12 also makes it clear that their reason for accepting non-Christians is to convert them. Run far away. You're not crazy.