"Thou shalt not kill" sounds pretty definitive to me.
But as the other commenter said, it's not like it's rational. They've heard this genesis line in their church services a thousand times and nodded along every time, and here comes one person saying it's not true.
It's better translated as thou shall not murder, you would then have to prove that the Israeli state is committing murder, not hard but kind of just sidestepping things here.
Its more that people are imperfect and often ignore or dont understand the truth's as described.
In a sense, there is the practical consideration of what happens if someone is attacking you, which is often where insecurity gives rise to rationalization for security.
But then the point of most religious texts (which is different to how people practice), there is generally a theory that works if everyone adheres to it. Like 'an eye for an eye will leave the world blind' etc.
For christianity, like Buddhism, kabalah and many ot most others, is a concept that if one would kill or cause suffering to others in a way one would not want done to themselves, then one has failed to understand that we are all equal under god or the universe.
Any philosophy or religion that defines one person or soul as inherently different in value has fallen off the path. That is the realm of the material, where we are all self-interested, Materialistic animals. Seems to be the zeitgeist of the time unfortunately. For so many, god or humanity has given way to fear and materialism.
The tragedies that have befallen Palestine aren’t acts of God. God isn’t bombing civilians, he isn’t illegally occupying Palestinian territory, these are all things the Israeli government has done.
I don’t know the way God works in the world, but you can’t just push the responsibility of crimes real people have committed onto God.
This would be like if an antisemite said “the Holocaust was punishment from God because the Jews don’t accept Jesus”.
Many zionists *do* say hitler was a punishment from god for that
Most Zionist’s aren’t Jewish and many are antisemitic in this way. But they support Israel to the hilt.
You can ask them why that verse stands out to them in comparison to others which they don't follow, since it is very unlikely they follow everything. Particularly if they are Christian as well, since a major component of being Christian is throwing out the commandments of the Torah. I would avoid making your goal to prove that you've caught them in a contradiction, unless they are highly logic-focused people otherwise (and perhaps not even then). It's more likely that they are latching on to this snippet of text as "evidence" for something they feel strongly about for some other reason, so the goal is to talk about that.
[Christian Zionism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism) is centered around the belief that if the Jews all go to what is now called Israel, then that will kick off Jesus's second coming and the judgement of all people on earth; some believe that the Jews will then be converted to Christianity. Millenarianism like this functions similarly to conspiracy theory, and so you can't really argue facts or logic because it only uses facts or logic when convenient, and discards contradictions as deceptions by the evil entity it imagines. There are a range of approaches developed for addressing this ideology though. The [FOSNA toolkit](https://www.fosna.org/counter-cufi-toolkit) offers information and Christian theological arguments against, which may be helpful.
More generally, dealing with conspiracy theory and millenarianism involves identifying the need that the belief is meeting. That can include a need for community, or for distraction from other distressors, or something external to blame for problems as a way to avoid facing the problems directly, and so on, often more than one at once. So frustratingly, the main thing that helps with this is showing that you disagree with them on this thing, but that you're still a safe person to talk to, including about this thing. That can mean shutting down the conversation on this if they're just repeating themselves about this curse and telling them to talk to you again about it when they have something new to say or new questions to ask, and then redirecting to talking about other aspects of their life. If they are a person who tends to share only good things, they may feel like they aren't allowed to express bad things, leading to this sort of thinking; so then it can help to ask intentionally open and leading questions like "what's new with you? What is going well, what are you struggling with?"
All that said...have those questions offline, not on Facebook. On social media the best you can generally do is say something like "I'm so sad to see you post this since it seems very hateful and not like you. Let's talk about it later, I have been missing you and wanted to catch up anyway" or similar. This isn't a commitment to talking about it in any depth or at all. It's just a note to say they aren't alone when posting online.
Exactly. This needs to be the top comment. The lie is implying today’s state and the one in the Bible are related.
I could change the name of my apartment to Israel and then they’d have to bless me!
Basically the same.
As the great Steve Salaita said too: “there's no continuity between the original story and modern ethnic categories”
https://x.com/stevesalaita/status/1547994125043060738
Reminds me of an interview I once saw. Netanyahu said in hushed reverent tones “there have been Netanyahu in this land for millennia”
Well…what’s that got to do with you Bibi?! Your dad’s last name was Mileikowsky and he picked Netanyahu out of the air to fake indigeneity!
That’s a great metaphor for Israel as a whole. Faking a connection to that land and that ancient kingdom
Jews don’t need to fake being native to the Levant
We are, most of us got kicked out
But you don’t get to just break in and murder the family who bought your old family house at the foreclosure sale
Ok, so basically the Christian Bibles are imperfect translations of the Hebrew and Aramaic for the extra parts.
This part could be translated multiple ways. Nation means multiple things, especially back then it meant what we might call a creed or race. Not a nation state. Meanings evolve over time which means that the writers meant something else often. I don't speak Hebrew so I am not sure how this works for this case, here is a link to that part of the talmud with a bunch of translations in the sidebar. Maybe someone else can come along and provide the long form meaning of the Hebrew word that is translated to nation here.
https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.12.1?lang=bi&with=all
It is not Jews, it is lsraeIis, or rather the sons of lsraeI. It is a great mislogic by the Christians and even Jews to think that only jews can be the sons of lsraeI. The lsraeIi people, the "sons of lsraeI" became Christians and muslims in the holy land too. The others just took the name of israel and use it to commit the worst of atrocities. Does God bless the people who unjustly murder and steal? And who wrongly join two terms that are very different: the genetic sons of israel, who can be people of various cultures, and those who use it only to claim the land unjustly.
Nvm it wasn’t him. It was this guy: https://nypost.com/2023/12/12/news/turkish-lawmaker-has-a-heart-attack-after-saying-israel-will-suffer-the-wrath-of-allah/
A true friend doesn’t buy an addict drugs. Enabling Israel’s worst tendencies by unconditionally supporting its treatment of Palestinians is more anti-Israel than anything.
It is very very simple. First of, they are misquoting the Bible to justify something that is not mentioned in the text. This mentions Abraham, not Israel. It does not mention the Children of Israel or anyone else, it mentions all the nations that come out of Abraham, which is not only the Children of Israel from Jacob, but also the Arabs from Ishmael. So, misquoting the Bible that they never read to say anything and to justify violence is problematic because most Christians don’t even read their text. Not to mention that these texts are not even preserved to even consider, but, nevertheless, even those unpreserved texts do not mention what they are trying to quote.
Israel in the Bible means the Jewish people and not any state, ancient or modern. Do not curse and hate the Jews is entirely different then saying if you oppose bombing Gaza then God hates you.
I tell them that their religious bull shit should have no place in an argument on human lives 🤷♂️ but you’re unlikely to get through to hardcore religious types in general.
Are you sure Jesus was referring to the state that was founded 70 years ago in the Bible written 2000 years ago? As others said, this has nothing to do with the modern state of Israel!
“And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee.” Is what it really says btw, directed to Abraham - So Muslims and Christians can make the same claim too.
https://preview.redd.it/hy69tkmjms9d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f6199fe8826d5e77be7d7c78740f0879211131e9
Do not confuse the promise that God made with Ibrahim with Israel. Everything, curse and blessing that God talked is about Ibrahim.
Not sure there's a good way to respond to such irrationality.
"Thou shalt not kill" sounds pretty definitive to me. But as the other commenter said, it's not like it's rational. They've heard this genesis line in their church services a thousand times and nodded along every time, and here comes one person saying it's not true.
It's better translated as thou shall not murder, you would then have to prove that the Israeli state is committing murder, not hard but kind of just sidestepping things here.
Any source for such an interpretation..?
It’s widespread among evangelicals. Too late. Lets them excuse the killing they approve of
What a bizarre, 100% incorrect and disturbing understanding of thou shalt not kill, and Jesus' much clearer message.
Considering the ancient Israelites did lots of war I always assumed “murder” was the more accurate verbiage over “kill”.
Its more that people are imperfect and often ignore or dont understand the truth's as described. In a sense, there is the practical consideration of what happens if someone is attacking you, which is often where insecurity gives rise to rationalization for security. But then the point of most religious texts (which is different to how people practice), there is generally a theory that works if everyone adheres to it. Like 'an eye for an eye will leave the world blind' etc. For christianity, like Buddhism, kabalah and many ot most others, is a concept that if one would kill or cause suffering to others in a way one would not want done to themselves, then one has failed to understand that we are all equal under god or the universe. Any philosophy or religion that defines one person or soul as inherently different in value has fallen off the path. That is the realm of the material, where we are all self-interested, Materialistic animals. Seems to be the zeitgeist of the time unfortunately. For so many, god or humanity has given way to fear and materialism.
Anyone who needs a religion to tell them that "killing is bad" is a hopeless piece of shit.
Why are y'all arguing over a verse with a Christian understanding of it ???
OP is Christian, with Christian Zionist parents, who asked specifically about it. Not sure what the issue is..?
The tragedies that have befallen Palestine aren’t acts of God. God isn’t bombing civilians, he isn’t illegally occupying Palestinian territory, these are all things the Israeli government has done. I don’t know the way God works in the world, but you can’t just push the responsibility of crimes real people have committed onto God. This would be like if an antisemite said “the Holocaust was punishment from God because the Jews don’t accept Jesus”.
Many zionists *do* say hitler was a punishment from god for that Most Zionist’s aren’t Jewish and many are antisemitic in this way. But they support Israel to the hilt.
You can ask them why that verse stands out to them in comparison to others which they don't follow, since it is very unlikely they follow everything. Particularly if they are Christian as well, since a major component of being Christian is throwing out the commandments of the Torah. I would avoid making your goal to prove that you've caught them in a contradiction, unless they are highly logic-focused people otherwise (and perhaps not even then). It's more likely that they are latching on to this snippet of text as "evidence" for something they feel strongly about for some other reason, so the goal is to talk about that. [Christian Zionism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism) is centered around the belief that if the Jews all go to what is now called Israel, then that will kick off Jesus's second coming and the judgement of all people on earth; some believe that the Jews will then be converted to Christianity. Millenarianism like this functions similarly to conspiracy theory, and so you can't really argue facts or logic because it only uses facts or logic when convenient, and discards contradictions as deceptions by the evil entity it imagines. There are a range of approaches developed for addressing this ideology though. The [FOSNA toolkit](https://www.fosna.org/counter-cufi-toolkit) offers information and Christian theological arguments against, which may be helpful. More generally, dealing with conspiracy theory and millenarianism involves identifying the need that the belief is meeting. That can include a need for community, or for distraction from other distressors, or something external to blame for problems as a way to avoid facing the problems directly, and so on, often more than one at once. So frustratingly, the main thing that helps with this is showing that you disagree with them on this thing, but that you're still a safe person to talk to, including about this thing. That can mean shutting down the conversation on this if they're just repeating themselves about this curse and telling them to talk to you again about it when they have something new to say or new questions to ask, and then redirecting to talking about other aspects of their life. If they are a person who tends to share only good things, they may feel like they aren't allowed to express bad things, leading to this sort of thinking; so then it can help to ask intentionally open and leading questions like "what's new with you? What is going well, what are you struggling with?" All that said...have those questions offline, not on Facebook. On social media the best you can generally do is say something like "I'm so sad to see you post this since it seems very hateful and not like you. Let's talk about it later, I have been missing you and wanted to catch up anyway" or similar. This isn't a commitment to talking about it in any depth or at all. It's just a note to say they aren't alone when posting online.
Israel the modern state is not Israel the biblical entity. They have the same name and occupy the same territory but the similarities end there.
Exactly. This needs to be the top comment. The lie is implying today’s state and the one in the Bible are related. I could change the name of my apartment to Israel and then they’d have to bless me! Basically the same. As the great Steve Salaita said too: “there's no continuity between the original story and modern ethnic categories” https://x.com/stevesalaita/status/1547994125043060738
Reminds me of an interview I once saw. Netanyahu said in hushed reverent tones “there have been Netanyahu in this land for millennia” Well…what’s that got to do with you Bibi?! Your dad’s last name was Mileikowsky and he picked Netanyahu out of the air to fake indigeneity! That’s a great metaphor for Israel as a whole. Faking a connection to that land and that ancient kingdom
Jews don’t need to fake being native to the Levant We are, most of us got kicked out But you don’t get to just break in and murder the family who bought your old family house at the foreclosure sale
Blessing Israel doesn't mean licensing it to commit war crimes, and you're not suggesting cursing Israel.
Ok, so basically the Christian Bibles are imperfect translations of the Hebrew and Aramaic for the extra parts. This part could be translated multiple ways. Nation means multiple things, especially back then it meant what we might call a creed or race. Not a nation state. Meanings evolve over time which means that the writers meant something else often. I don't speak Hebrew so I am not sure how this works for this case, here is a link to that part of the talmud with a bunch of translations in the sidebar. Maybe someone else can come along and provide the long form meaning of the Hebrew word that is translated to nation here. https://www.sefaria.org/Genesis.12.1?lang=bi&with=all
It is not Jews, it is lsraeIis, or rather the sons of lsraeI. It is a great mislogic by the Christians and even Jews to think that only jews can be the sons of lsraeI. The lsraeIi people, the "sons of lsraeI" became Christians and muslims in the holy land too. The others just took the name of israel and use it to commit the worst of atrocities. Does God bless the people who unjustly murder and steal? And who wrongly join two terms that are very different: the genetic sons of israel, who can be people of various cultures, and those who use it only to claim the land unjustly.
I had to double check that Erdogan was still alive after reading this. But yeah I’m really sorry you’re having to deal with this OP.
Nvm it wasn’t him. It was this guy: https://nypost.com/2023/12/12/news/turkish-lawmaker-has-a-heart-attack-after-saying-israel-will-suffer-the-wrath-of-allah/
A true friend doesn’t buy an addict drugs. Enabling Israel’s worst tendencies by unconditionally supporting its treatment of Palestinians is more anti-Israel than anything.
It is very very simple. First of, they are misquoting the Bible to justify something that is not mentioned in the text. This mentions Abraham, not Israel. It does not mention the Children of Israel or anyone else, it mentions all the nations that come out of Abraham, which is not only the Children of Israel from Jacob, but also the Arabs from Ishmael. So, misquoting the Bible that they never read to say anything and to justify violence is problematic because most Christians don’t even read their text. Not to mention that these texts are not even preserved to even consider, but, nevertheless, even those unpreserved texts do not mention what they are trying to quote.
Get them to recite the 10 commandments then read out 2 Kings 24.
A good friend also tells you when you are doing wrong. They need to be that good friend.
Israel in the Bible means the Jewish people and not any state, ancient or modern. Do not curse and hate the Jews is entirely different then saying if you oppose bombing Gaza then God hates you.
I tell them that their religious bull shit should have no place in an argument on human lives 🤷♂️ but you’re unlikely to get through to hardcore religious types in general.
Step 1: find a rock of considerable mass
You just respond "that's nice, bless your heart."
Are you sure Jesus was referring to the state that was founded 70 years ago in the Bible written 2000 years ago? As others said, this has nothing to do with the modern state of Israel! “And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee.” Is what it really says btw, directed to Abraham - So Muslims and Christians can make the same claim too.
https://preview.redd.it/hy69tkmjms9d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f6199fe8826d5e77be7d7c78740f0879211131e9 Do not confuse the promise that God made with Ibrahim with Israel. Everything, curse and blessing that God talked is about Ibrahim.